Nomination of Taoiseach (Resumed).

Atairgeadh an Cheist: "Go h-ainmeoidh Dáil Éireann an Teachta Albert Reynolds a cheaptha ag an Uachtarán mar Thaoiseach".

Question again proposed: "That Dáil Éireann nominate Deputy Albert Reynolds for appointment by the President as Taoiseach".

The Taoiseach

A Cheann Comhairle, As Deputies will be aware, my party and the Labour Party have entered into serious negotiations with a view to the formation of a Government.

The process of forming a Government between two parties, even with the evident goodwill that is present on both sides, is still a painstaking one, which requires detailed consideration of many different policy areas. We both seek to build firm foundations for a successful and productive period of Government that can provide the change sought by the Irish people in an atmosphere of stability and confidence. A resonable amount of time is needed to bring this work, which should not be rushed, to a conclusion.

The thorough discussions that are taking place will take some more time for completion. In the meantime, of course, a Government remains in place that will deal with whatever problems arise at home and that will continue to handle important EC negotiations, such as the ones on fisheries over the weekend which were very successful from Ireland's point of view.

We are now entering the Christmas holiday period. The talks will adjourn for a week from tomorrow. I would like to propose that the Dáil would adjourn by agreement until Tuesday, 5 January 1993, at 2.30 p.m. The House will understand, however, that it is not possible to give a definite assurance at this stage that everything will be completed by that date.

Mr. J. Bruton

I will not object to the extension of time the acting Government may see as necessary to complete its discussions. But, before agreeing to that, it is important that the House reflect on the fact that, by the time the Dáil meets on the date now suggested by the Taoiseach, two full months will have elapsed during which this House will have been incapable of doing any normal business other than the one day's work we agreed to put through in exceptional circumstances at the behest of the acting Government.

There is quite an amount of urgent business to be dealt with in the House. For example, there is the question of the provision of information the people are entitled to have, urgent information in the form of the Book of Estimates for 1993. I believe that the acting Government has actually taken decisions on and has completed the Book of Estimates. If it has these should be published because they form an essential background to any negotiations that may be taking place on the formation of a Government.

The first business to be transacted by any new Government which may be formed, on 5 January 1993, or on any other date in the foreseeable future, will be the agreeing of a budget. The basic ingredient of a budget, as we all know, is the Book of Estimates. The budget is not merely for 15 people sitting around a Cabinet table but for 3.5 million inhabitants of this State. It is all of their business what decisions are taken, by whom and how — whether expenditure is to be increased or decreased, whether there are to be changes in taxation, etc. The fact that we do not have a Government at this stage, other than an acting one, is no excuse for the non-publication of the Estimates.

Likewise I am afraid we are having quite misleading, perhaps even misled, comment about the budgetary position. It will probably transpire that the Government will have borrowed in the region of £600 million during 1992, which is acceptable. But, in order to have any idea of what will be the true budgetary choices facing the incoming Government, we must know what will be the opening budgetary position for 1993. My information is that that will be substantially larger than the Exchequer borrowing requirement for 1992. It is within that area that decisions have to be taken. It is extremely important that the people should know what are the true policy options being considered.

Deputy Spring, Leader of the Labour Party, said in this House the last time we met that he would not enter into negotiations with any party unless that party was prepared to publish its programme for discussion with his party. To the best of my knowledge the Fianna Fáil Party sent a programme to the Labour Party, privately, which has not been published. Therefore, I should like to know whether the condition Deputy Spring outlined has been fulfilled. If this discussion is taking place — it is about public business — and if one of the parties has said the programme should be published, then it should be published. I should like to know why it has not been published.

I should also like to make some inquiries about the type of allocation of Government responsibilities now taking place. For example, the House has been told that the acting Minister for Justice and Industry and Commerce has now been appointed to be an EC Commissioner. I understand he will not take office until 1 January next. In the interim who is the Minister for Justice? Who is the Minister for Industry and Commerce? Who will be the Minister for Justice on 1 January next? Who will be Minister for Industry and Commerce on 1 January next? Even within the period of this acting Government it seems to me to be important that we should have a clear indication which other Minister has been allocated these portfolios. It seems unusual that nobody has been allocated either of them at this stage.

Furthermore, in regard to the discussions now taking place between the two political parties, if the Government that is to be formed by those two parties is to be stable, it is essential that there be agreement on the details of the forthcoming budget before that Government is formed. I should like to know whether, before forming a Government, the parties intend discussing the individual expenditure and/or tax changes that will have to be effected. If that is not done there will not be a genuine policy agreement. Anybody can reach an agreement on general principles. However, such an agreement will be put to the test in a very real sense when a budget has to be agreed. I should like to know from the Taoiseach and from those other persons involved in the negotiations whether they are actually agreeing the outline and detail of the forthcoming budget. If they are not any such agreement will be merely several sheets of paper, it will not be a true agreement in terms of practical decision-taking.

I regret very much that so much time has been lost since the general election. I will not reiterate what I said in the past about the fact that one of the parties now attempting to form a Government spent two weeks discussing policy with a party of four Deputies, then had perfunctory discussions with other parties — discussions which I believe were never intended to achieve anything — then proceeded to discuss matters with Fianna Fáil and, presumably, will continue to do so for some considerable time to come. The Taoiseach was unable even to give us an indication that we would have a Government on 5 January next. Such a slow process is not good for the country in view of the fact that we have a serious currency position.

We were warned this very morning by those representing the largest employers here that up to 25,000 jobs could be lost under current policies so far as interest rates and exchange rates are concerned. It seems to me that until a Government is formed, no decision can be taken either to back up those policies or to change them. Therefore, I do not believe that the leisurely pace pursued by at least one of the partners to this prospective Government since the election took place — in so far as fulfilling their responsibilities in the matter of the formation of a Government is concerned — is responsible in present national circumstances.

Regardless of who forms the new Government, we need a Government soon if the value of our currency is to be maintained and if up to 25,000 jobs are not to be lost, as is feared by the CII.

Therefore, I believe there is a very heavy responsibility on the negotiators concerned either to come to a conclusion, or to conclude that they are not going to be able to do so and let others seek to come to a conclusion about the formation of a Government. There is no time left now for prolonged negotiations for appearance sake. Either they make a deal or they do not; they should not delay any longer.

Mr. Spring

The work we are engaged in is both difficult and important. There will be no agreement at the end of the day unless it is an agreement for a Government that is totally different in style and substance. I have been reminded on a number of occasions in the last few days of a speech I made in this House just before the Dáil was dissolved, a speech which I quoted here when the House last met. Everything that was in that speech was important to me then and it is now. The Government that will be formed after these negotiations will be a Government that presides over a return to high standards in public life. Unless and until the Labour Party are satisfied that that will be the case, the Labour Party will not conclude an agreement.

If the Government is to include the Labour Party, it will be a Government which will preside over the emergence of a new order of social priorities. Those on the margins will be included; those who have no voice will be given a voice. That is the only kind of Government that matters to us. In our discussions with Fianna Fáil so far, we have detected an awareness of the need for fundamental change. When the Minister for Finance spoke yesterday about a programme which would be perceived as exciting, he was referring to the fact that it would represent a fundamental departure from the recent past. The voiceless, the unrepresented, the marginalised sectors of our community, all of them children of the nation to be cherished equally, are, we hope going to find a voice, a place at last, in the new structures and policies we are aiming to produce.

I cannot guarantee at this stage that the negotiations upon which we are embarked will be successfully concluded. All I can say is that they are being conducted in good faith against a difficult economic and financial background. It is far to early to be able to say that we will be able to surmount those difficulties and the many other difficulties that will inevitably beset talks like these, based as they are on a background of history. In that connection, I fully understand the concerns of the many people who have contacted me and others in recent days, who have pointed out the dangers of talking to traditional enemies whom we have strenuously opposed in the past, but history is full of examples of tragedy caused by the failure of people to talk to each other and full of more hopeful stories which all began when enemies began to talk to each other.

What I find harder to understand are the commentators who have decided that only politicians who have lost all their integrity would be seen dead talking to Fianna Fáil. Over the course of my public life I have tried to observe certain standards. I intend to continue to try to observe those standards to the best of my ability. I will not be deflected from doing what I consider to be necessary, by criticism of the kind I have read in the last few weeks. In the final analysis, if a Government is formed out of these talks, it will be because two political parties believe that they have come to the best agreement possible in the interest of the people we represent. I hope that at the end of the day the people will judge that Government on the seriousness with which it has tackled unemployment, on the trust, openness and accountability which it has restored to politics, on the justice which it has brought to our economic life, on the sense of equality which it has generated in our social life and on the compassion with which it has addressed the needs of the people in many areas. Those who rush to judgment do themselves no credit. In the same way those, including those in Fine Gael and the Progressive Democrats who have criticised the Labour Party on the basis that we did not approach our talks with them seriously enough, do themselves no credit whatsoever, particularly since the tales they are telling are very one-sided and partial.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Spring

I can tell them too, and some of your party members might be very embarressed.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. J. Mitchell

Claim privilege.

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

Order. Let us hear the Member in possession without interruptions.

Mr. T. O'Sullivan

What about the 14point programme you did not honour?

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

Ciúnas, led' thoil.

Mr. Spring

I might just respect some of the things you told me, Deputy Bruton, in private, in your own interests.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. J. O'Keeffe

You will meet yourself coming back.

Mr. J. Mitchell

You are like the Esso man.

An Ceann Comhairle

Let us have an orderly debate.

Mr. Spring

I will be happy if at the end of this difficult process we can produce a Government which means what it says in its programme. It may take a bit longer to produce such a Government than it has in the past, but if we can depart from history to start carving out a new and historical agenda for Ireland, that wait will be worth while.

Mr. Allen

An excellent acceptance speech.

Mr. O'Malley

It will be four weeks tomorrow since the Irish people voted to elect a new Government. It is deeply regretted that so much time could have elapsed since November 25 when the people cast their votes, and they still do not have a Government. Clearly their rights in this regard will remain thwarted until the New Year, although the party composition of the administration which will eventually take office no longer seems to be in doubt. Given the nature and extent of the social and economic problems facing this country at present, which have been fully documented not only in this House but also during the three week election campaign, it is even more regrettable that the country should continue to be in the hands of a caretaker government which was decisively rejected by the people at the ballot boxes. Unfortunately, there has been a lot of time wasting and political playacting since November 25 and it is now obvious to everyone that a lot of what purported to be serious attempts by the Labour Party to engage in meaningful discussions towards the formation of a Government, was mere decoy and the real agenda is now much more accurately reflected in their negotiations with the Fianna Fáil Party. I regret that the people have been so seriously misled not only by much of the political shadowboxing indulged in since election day but, more pertinently by the brazen casting aside of policy stances and political attitudes which were struck during the election campaign.

Eight days ago when we last met unsuccessfully to seek to elect a Taoiseach who would form this country's next Government, I referred to the general mood of puzzlement that so little progress has been made in the two and a half weeks that had elapsed since the election, and I forecast that it would "soon give way to a mood of anger and resentment". Nobody can doubt now, on any side of this House, the deeply felt anger and resentment of many people who quite rightly conclude that the current Fianna Fáil-Labour Party negotiations and the likely emergence of the Government from those talks amounts to nothing less than a perversion of the will of the people as expressed in the ballot boxes on the basis of the likely alignments put before them in the election campaign. Many people feel duped and let down and they are right to feel that way. They are entitled to expect that the political preference which they expressed in the general election will broadly approximate to and be reflected by the shape of the Government formed in the wake of that election.

A Deputy

A shotgun wedding.

Mr. O'Malley

If they voted for Labour on the basis of that party being unwilling to form a Government with Fianna Fáil, they are entitled to expect Labour to act accordingly.

A Deputy

What did you do in 1989?

Mr. O'Malley

For the sake of the people, I now hope that the two parties negotiating to provide them with a Government will not compound the unhappy situation further by lumbering them with an additional mountain of debt in the coming couple of years to add to the unacceptable national debt which they are already shouldering and which is costing well over two billion pounds in annual interest payments alone.

Every political party would like to be able to promise bonanzas — we would all like to believe in a political Santa Claus. The prospect of a reasonable Brussels structural fund package to be paid between now and 1999 should not reduce us to a childlike belief that a political philanthropist resides at the North Pole, or in Brussels for that matter. I made plain, during the election campaign when the Progressive Democrats stood firm against a spending spree of costly promises that there was no crock of gold available to the then Government before I and my party resigned from it on 4 November. None materialised during the election campaign and, sadly, there is non around today either. The Fianna Fáil Ministers at the Cabinet table know that that is the truth; yet it would now appear that, as if by magic, major equity injections are available for various State companies, there can be a significant hike in child benefit payments, more money is available for the health services, and that there is much more.

Again, let me make it clear the Progressive Democrats supports improvements in these areas if they can be paid for and believe greater value for the money already expended by Government can be secured. However, any changes and improvements must clearly be constrained by the extent to which the Government's hands should be tied when it comes to raising more money which must come either from higher taxation or from borrowing. I choose these words advisedly because I have no faith in the willingness of the parties to the current Government talks to be guided and constrained by the fiscal realities which they face. I would like to hope that my fears may prove unfounded in due course.

My final appeal now to the Fianna Fáil and Labour parties is to get on with the task of completing the administration which has clearly been in the making since shortly after election day. Please do not prevaricate simply to create the illusion that such an agreement is going to be terribly elusive or hard won. With the Labour Party apparently already having set 3 January for its special delegate conference it is quite clear how the talks will conclude.

Proinsias De Rossa

It is true that now almost a month has passed since polling day and the business of forming a Government has, indeed, taken longer than most people anticipated. However, it is important that whatever parties make up the next administration they are given sufficient time to work out an agreed policy programme that could deliver the changes which Irish society badly needs.

Democratic Left has made it clear from the beginning that it would be positive and constructive in its approach to the formation of a Government and it has delivered on that promise. It is not involved in the current talks between Labour and Fianna Fáil. Democratic Left made it clear from the beginning that it did not favour a return of Fianna Fáil to office in any capacity. It engaged in lengthy and detailed discussions with the Labour Party in the aftermath of the election and produced an agreed policy platform for a centre-left Government. This platform, we understand, has formed the basis of the negotiations between Labour and Fianna Fáil and we look forward to seeing how that document will emerge at the end of that process.

The odds now seem to be on a Fianna Fáil-Labour administration. It will indeed be ironic if the end product of an election which almost everybody interpreted as a vote for change will be the re-election of Deputy Reynolds as Taoiseach and the reappointment of many Members of the discredited outgoing Government to the Cabinet table. Part of the responsibility for this must rest with the political elitism displayed by the Fine Gael Party, who spurned at every opportunity the possibility of a centre-left government. There remains that potentially viable alternative Government made up of Fine Gael, Labour and Democratic Left. However, the refusal of Fine Gael to not alone consider joining a Government with Democratic Left but to even talk to that party, is simply facilitating the return of Fianna Fáil to office. Deputy Bruton may just as well commit himself now to voting for Deputy Reynolds as Taoiseach, because that appears to be the inevitable result of the policy his party has adopted.

Mr. J. Bruton

I will not.

Proinsias De Rossa

As I said, we look forward with interest to whatever policy document will be produced by Fianna Fáil and Labour, if those talks succeed. But, of course, good Government does not just require a good policy platform, it also requires the political will to deliver on the policy commitments. Good documents on their own do not necessarily achieve anything. A good example of this is the Culliton report. Everyone agrees that it is one of the most comprehensive and thorough analyses of industrial development ever produced, but various vested interests have sapped the political will to implement that document in its entirety.

There is also the question of political credibility. Has Fianna Fáil the capacity to regain the confidence of the public? Has the stroke culture been dispensed with? Is Fianna Fáil capable of dispensing with it? Events since the election have suggested that the leopard has not yet changed its spots.

A Deputy

They are being transferred.

Proinsias De Rossa

The caretaker Government, which at the moment has the support of only 40 per cent support of the Deputies in this House has continued to act as if it had received a sweeping mandate from the Irish people on 25 November. Crucial appointments have been made by Fianna Fáil in a number of areas, although I do not believe that it has the political authority to do so.

When the matter of appointments was raised on the Order of Business last week, the Taoiseach said that these would only be made where the national interest required it. It could be argued that the acting Government had to go ahead and nominate an EC Commissioner as the deadline was imminent, although I believe the national interest would have been better served had the Taoiseach consulted with the other party leaders to see if all party agreement could have been reached.

However, a number of other appointments have made which suggest that Fianna Fáil is up to its old tricks. There was a new board of Eolas appointed by the outgoing Minister for Justice, Deputy Flynn, last week. Of even more significance was the appointment by the Minister for Social Welfare, Deputy McCreevy, of a new board for the Combat Poverty Agency on 8 December. There were two unusual things about this. First, contrary to normal practice, there was no public statement on the announcement of the new board and, second, the vast majority of the eight new appointees to the board are unknown to people working in the poverty area. I suspect, however, that they are very well known to Fianna Fáil activists in their areas. I would have thought that the first pre-condition to be set by any party entering into negotiations with Fianna Fáil would be a demand that there should be a moratorium on all such appointments until a new Government had been formed.

I also want to comment briefly on some of the newspaper coverage and comment on political events since the election. What we witnessed during the past few weeks has represented a most significant decline in standards. It seems to me that much of what was written went far beyond the bounds of normal press comment on political matters, and that what we saw instead was a determined effort to dictate the course of political events. Some of the most outrageous attacks directed at the parties of the left have echoes of the excesses of the pro-Thatcher press in their attacks on the British Labour Party over the past decade.

In particular we saw a determined effort by a small but very rich and powerful group of newspaper proprietors, and their editors, to determine what parties should be in Government. Top of their agenda was to ensure that whatever else happened the Progressive Democrats should be in Government. Fortunately, for the people of this country, it is still the Members of this House and not the newspaper editors, and their dinner table pals, who decide the composition of governments.

Mr. Gregory

When we met last week both I, and several other Members, referred to the plight of the homeless, particularly in Dublin city. I note that no Member so far today has referred to the homeless. There was some sign of hope in the almost immediate response of the acting Taoiseach to this very serious and sensitive matter. The instruction from the Taoiseach's office to use Army personnel was a necessary short-term emergency response.

I know that the homeless people who availed of that service certainly welcome the initiative. On Sunday night 22 homeless people were cared for by Army personnel in Dublin. However, the reason I raise this matter today is because I sincerely trust that that initiative will be quickly followed up by others such as increased resources to voluntary organisations working with the homeless and the provision of comprehensive support services for those in need. I trust that the underlying cause of the problem will be dealt with by the urgent and rapid expansion of the local authority house building programme, particularly in the inner cities and in other areas of social disadvantage. If this is done at all levels we can be confident we will never see a repetition of the tragic events in Dublin city centre which shamed us all during the past few weeks. In particular, I hope that the Taoiseach's office will continue to play a central role in all of this and will co-ordinate and oversee the implementation of an inter-departmental action programme which will deal effectively with the issue of homelessness. If this is not done, then the initiative taken last week will have been little more than a PR exercise.

I do not intend to say anything further on the formation of a Government other than that I hope that this issue is given a very high priority by all those participating in the drawing up of a programme for Government.

Mr. Sargent

Ba mhaith liom ar dtús comhgháirdeas a dheanamh leis an iarAire, Pádraig Ó Floinn. Cé go dúirt mé cheana gur theastaigh uaim go mbeadh bean sa phost agus go mbeadh cothrom na Féinne ag mná na hÉireann agus sa Comhphobal féin, guím gach rath air sa phost atá faighte aige.

Much as I would like to support a Government in January, in the national interest, to ensure constructive co-operation in the Dáil, to create an economy where all can avail of the opportunity of work at home and not simply through emigration and where the earth and future generations are not endangered, there can be no question of the Green Party, Comhaontas Glas, voting for any Taoiseach who adjourns before the end of 1992 without taking decisions on issues with end-of-year deadlines. Such issues which come to mind include lodging an official objection to Her Majesty's inspectorate on pollution and calling for a public inquiry into the thermal-oxide reprocessing plant, known as Thorp which is scheduled to increase aerial discharges by 1,000 per cent and marine discharges by 800 per cent of radioactive substances from Sellafield. Given that radon gas presents enough of a problem for many people in this country, particularly the 100 people who die every year from lung cancer, is it too much to ask the Taoiseach to lodge a Government objection about Thorp before the 11 January 1993 deadline. If, as promised in so much pre-election literature, a court case is to be taken against Sellafield, how will it look when we are told: "there was an opportunity to object by the end of 1992 but you did not take it"?

In Ireland work is continuing on phase two of the Mullaghmore interpretative centre, even though a court case is to be heard again in January to decide on whether or not the Office of Public Works has exceeded its powers. Given that the WWF, an international conservation authority, is also taking the EC to court claiming that Mullaghmore is the worst transgression known to it and in breach of the EC habitat directive, is it not obvious that work at Mullaghmore should halt immediately to allow the courts to decide the issue? I will not delay the House by going into other issues but I would appreciate answers to the questions I have raised.

Mar fhocal scoir, ba mhaith liom beannachtaí na Nollag, a ghuí ort féin, a Cheann Comhairle, ar na Teachtaí go léir, ar mhuintir na meáin chumarsáide agus ar phobal na hÉireann sa bhaile agus i bhfad i gcéin.

Go mbeirimid beo, le Teilifís na Gaeltachta, ag an am seo arís, mar thug Fianna Fáil gealltanas go mbunófaí Teilifís na Gaeltachta i mbliana. Cá bhfuil sé? An bhfuil an Rialtas sásta twotier society a fhágáil agus a mhéadú maidir le cúrsaí teanga, oideachais agus sláinte chomh maith le cúrsaí eacnamaíochta. Tá súil agam go bhfaighimid freagraí roimh dheireadh 1992, mar tá baol ann go mbeidh 1993 ró-dhéanach.

Deputies Barry and Harte rose.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Peter Barry.

Mr. Barry

I wish to briefly comment on some of the points made here this morning and the Taoiseach's operning statement that "Deputies will be aware that my party and the Labour Party have entered into serious negotiations with a view to forming a Government". Frankly, that is not what the people voted for. The statements made by the Labour Party after the votes were counted that the people had voted for change did not mean that the people wanted to put the acting Government back into power for another four years, which is what they are going to get. I do not know if the parties in these negotiations have such contempt for the public memory that they have forgotten the campaign of vilification they conducted against each other during the last weeks in November. I am referring to the advertisements in the newspaper about the excessive borrowing which would be engaged in by the Labour Party and the cost of this to the Exchequer, the return advertisements by the Labour Party about the standards in Fianna Fáil and the Fianna Fáil advertisements which said that if people voted for Spring they would get Bruton. We can now see that the people who voted for Spring will get Reynolds.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. T. O'Sullivan

You told us to do that, Peter. We have it on record. You told us to go to Fianna Fáil——

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy O'Sullivan, please desist.

Mr. T. O'Sullivan

You told us that more than once.

Mr. Barry

I do not think that snarling at one another across the floor of the House instead of standing up and making one's point in a speech for the record is worthy of people who have been elected in any part of the city or country.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. T. O'Sullivan

You told us to do that.

Mr. Barry

If the Deputy has something to say he should stand up and put it on the record and not be snarling.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Howlin

The Deputy's frustration is showing.

Mr. Barry

The length of time it has taken to form a Government reflects extremely badly on the people who have entered into negotiations with one another. As Deputy Bruton has said, the budgetary situation for 1993 is extremely serious. It is evident that the constraints which the Fianna Fáil Members of the present Government know to exist are going to be thrown overboard by people who preached fiscal rectitude up to a week ago. As one commentator said, the Labour Party manifesto will be rebound and sent back to them as part of the Fianna Fáil manifesto.

It is vitally important that the talks on Northern Ireland are resumed without any delay. The two hopeful statements made during the past week have not been and cannot be responded to by an acting Government. These statements deserve the urgent attention of all Members of this House and, in particular, the new Government. The caretaker Government does not have a Minister for Defence, apart from an acting one who is not a Member of this House. Neither does it have a Minister for Justice, who is now gone to Europe. These two important security positions need to be filled urgently not on an acting basis, even though I recognise the necessity for doing this, but on a permanent basis by the formation of a Government.

It is not good enough to suspend the talks on the formation of a Government tomorrow for a week and for the Taoiseach to come in here and say when we meet on 5 January there is no guarantee that a Government will be formed. If the parties engaged in these talks, which quite frankly I wish would fail so that we could again become engaged in the talks process on the formation of a Government——

Mr. Stagg

The Deputy does not wish that.

Mr. Barry

I believe that is what the people voted for, not the kind of change the Labour Party is now presenting to the country.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Barry

I hope that the negotiations fail, but if the negotiations are to succeed they should not be suspended for a week, thus delaying further the formation of a Government which this country so badly needs now.

Mr. Spring

Are we to cancel Christmas as well?

A Deputy

Give the people a change.

Mr. Harte

While the country is watching the negotiations on the formation of a new Government, I have to say — I ask the Taoiseach to comment on this before the House adjourns — that the currency crisis which is causing so much havoc to our economy and threatening certain businesses has been neglected by the caretaker Government. I ask the Taoiseach before the House adjourns for Christmas to clarify the Government's position in regard to the currency crisis. It has been going on since before negotiations started on the formation of a Government. It has been threatening the entire economy since September. The problem must be addressed. It is more pressing and urgent in Border areas. I have been trying for weeks to get the Government to make a statement on this matter. In the spirit of Christmas, I ask the Taoiseach to clarify the position as far as possible. There are companies which can no longer stay in business if this issue is not dealt with urgently.

Mr. Dukes

We should point out that the situation today contrasts very starkly and markedly with the situation which prevailed just after the 1989 election, when the Labour Party and what was then The Workers' Party totally abdicated their responsibility in the formation of a Government. I suppose one change we should be pleased to see in the overall political scene is that they have now decided that they cannot abdicate that responsibility in general. A great many people are surprised by what is happening. That includes a great many people on the Labour benches and even my good friend, Deputy Stagg, one of whose avowed objectives in politics is to destroy the conservative parties.

Mr. Stagg

Particularly Fine Gael.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Dukes

The Deputy has been a long time trying and this time he just ran up against a wall.

An Ceann Comhairle

Order.

Mr. Howlin

They are gearing up to take over from Deputy Bruton.

Mr. Dukes

I do not think too many of us should be surprised. I went to the trouble last Friday of re-reading speeches made by Deputy Spring last February when the present temporary Taoiseach was appointed and the speech he made last month in this House in the confidence debate. The February speech was very soft, rather warm, and it did not contain a great many warnings of the kind he felt he had to issue last month. In that latter speech — and I have some little acquaintance with Deputy Spring — I found that on every occasion where he issued a warning, some of them very trenchant indeed, he used words which allow him now to say that something has changed because Fianna Fáil has accepted this bit of Labour policy or another.

Mr. Spring

This from a man who is a failed leader of a party.

Mr. Dukes

All these demonic things which Fianna Fáil were supposed to be then are no longer part of the new, reconstructed Fianna Fáil with which the Labour Party is about to do a deal. We should not be very surprised.

Looking back on the record of the past couple of years, I wonder if the Labour Party is really so naive as to believe that undertakings made by the Fianna Fáil Party in these circumstances can be taken seriously or if they will be lived up to. I can remember a series of undertakings negotiated and renegotiated by Fianna Fáil with another party in the period since 1989 that have not been lived up to. I take one very simple example which I know some of my friends in the Labour Party have very much in mind, that is the reform of our laws on homosexuality. It now appears that Fianna Fáil never intended to reform those laws. I wonder how much an assurance of that kind will be worth.

It should not take a great deal of time to debate all these issues but I suspect that the Labour Party want to have everything in its policy written down so that Fianna Fáil can formally say yes. I suspect it is taking a long time because there is an awful lot that the Labour Party want to write down. What should, of course, take time is the key part of any agreement that can be made to form a Government, that is the budgetary side of the problem. I am not at all confident from what we hear that this is being properly treated. I was worried a week or two ago when I heard from very high sources in the Labour Party — I am sure Deputy Spring will understand when I say I cannot reveal my source — that the view now being taken by the Labour Party apparatchiks is that there will be a very difficult year in 1993, followed by two easy years. If the Government about to be formed is to construct budgetary policy for 1993 on that assumption, then it will be an even worse Government than I fear it might be. That basis for budgetary policy would be nothing more than a delusion and that Government will get into serious budgetary difficulties very quickly.

I have to say also — and I am offering Fianna Fáil a little bit of friendly advice on this — that it should pay some attention to the Labour Party's propensity to rewrite history. During the general election campaign a former Member of this House, a member of the European Parliament, Barry Desmond, talked in some detail about the occasion on which the Labour Party left Government at the beginning of 1987, a move I regretted. I felt the Labour Party had left at a bad time, but that is history. It seemed the party were turning its back on something to which it had set its hand some years before. Mr. Desmond recalled that the break-up of that Government, in contrast to the breakdown of the last Government, was over a serious policy issue and that it was carried out with a good deal of sadness and not any great deal of rancour. That is true. It contrasted very much with the way the last Government fell apart. He was right to say that. Later in the campaign we found that the same people who had disagreed in that gentlemanly and honourable way were now being castigated in a different way. We saw the demonising of some members of my party, particularly of Deputy Bruton and of myself. We were told that we were arrogant, condescending and abrasive.

Mr. Spring

Probably only a rumour.

Mr. Quinn

Keep talking.

Mr. Dukes

I offer this advice in a spirit of helpfulness. Fianna Fáil had better be careful how it deals with the Labour Party. If is is in Government with that party and does not talk to it constantly, it is taking it for granted, using it as a prop or, as Deputy Quinn would say, using it as extra carriages on its train. If it does talk to that party constantly it will be condescending, arrogant and domineering. There is no way Fianna Fáil can actually win with it.

Everybody knows that I am not an abrasive person. I am not domineering and I am not at all condescending. I would like to show it by saying very sincerely that I have the greatest sympathy for Deputy Spring, who is now not about to be Taoiseach and I hope Santa Claus brings him something better.

There are two areas where this Government will run into serious trouble.

Mr. Lenihan

The Deputy is talking himself into it.

Mr. Dukes

Deputy Lenihan would want to adjust his mind to the rest of this Dáil. These two areas are related. I understand there is a proposal being discussed between the two parties to put together ACC, ICC, the Trustee Savings Bank and the Post Office Savings Bank to form a third banking force. An earlier variant of the proposal was propounded by Deputy Quinn which involved Crédit Lyonnais, but I gather that has been dropped. If the Government tries to put together a bank like that, it should be aware of what it is doing because this bank, I gather, is supposed to hold all the accounts of the semi-State bodies; it is supposed to be the privileged channel of funding to these semi-State bodies. If that is done what we will have here, for the first time in the history of this State, is a political bank and every Member of the Oireachtas in the Government parties will be plagued because every half failure of a firm, every daft idea that cannot find finance, will be trotted up to them to be brought to this political bank. It is the Government's bank after all, and they can make it happen; that is what they said. This bank will become a repository for the worst risks in the economy.

A related point is that these two parties, between them, treat the banks and the public purse as places from which development money should come. They have failed to recognise that the single greatest weakness in the structure of Irish industry and the Irish economy is that we rely far too much on loan finance and we have too few encouragements for equity finance. If the Government set up a bank of the kind now proposed, everybody will forget about equity finance and they will perpetuate the structural problem we have suffered for decades of having too much loan finance and not enough equity finance.

An Ceann Comhairle

I hesitate to interrupt Deputy Dukes——

Mr. Dukes

I am coming to a conclusion, Sir.

An Ceann Comhairle

——but I wish to disabuse Members of the notion that they should go into detail now on the formation of Government and the election of a Taoiseach which is yet to come.

Mr. Dukes

It is advice, Sir, since we will not have the opportunity of doing so until next year.

Mr. Taylor

Tell us about the Tallaght strategy.

Mr. Dukes

Let me conclude by saying that I suppose at this stage the Labour Party is now thinking of having a special delegates conference. I think the pantomime season is the best time to have that in the Gaiety.

Mr. Quinn

That was a party political speech on behalf of Alan Dukes for the leadership.

Mr. Rabbitte

I had not intended to say anything but I am upset that Fine Gael and the Progressive Democrats should approach Christmas with such a gloomy disposition. I want to make it clear that, unlike the previous speakers, I do not feel in the slightest cheated by not having the prospect of power any nearer than it was a couple of weeks ago. I am neutral on the incipient leadership battle between Deputies Barry and Dukes. I am not going to come down on either side.

Mr. Dukes

We will invite the Deputy for tea.

Mr. Rabbitte

I agree that some of the criticism of Members is justified in the context of our manifest inability to recognise the qualities of the Progressive Democrats and the fact that they have a divine right to be in power. The criticisms in the editorials are justified in that area.

The only serious point I want to make is that I agree with my colleague, Deputy De Rossa, that the conduct of some sections of the media in the last few weeks has been disgraceful in terms of the standards the media have normally applied in this country compared to Britain. The Independent group, including The Sunday World have been particularly despicable and, in the case of The Irish Times, it seems clear that they are all in favour of change so long it has a very small “c”. I disagree with Deputy De Rossa that the dinner table guests of some prominent people in The Irish Times are not confined to people associated with the Progressive Democrats, and I think Fine Gael know what I mean.

As far as I and the people I represent are concerned, the important thing in constructing a Government is whether the challenges of unemployment, homelessness, the people who are living on the margins of society, are really addressed and the theatricials that went on here this afternoon will not impact on that one way or the other. As far as I am concerned, I will reserve judgment until I see what the programme for Government is like and then whether it will be implemented. That is what people out there voted for. I have very little time for the whingeing we have had to listen to this afternoon.

The Taoiseach

Let me take up the theme that Deputy Rabbitte finished on, that is, the next Government and the policies of that Government are far more important that personalities. I am afraid there has been an incredible display of hypocrisy by some speakers in this House this afternoon in regard to the budgetary situation, that is the position in relation to borrowing. This Government facilitated every political party leader by opening the books and showing them the opening deficit.

I have no doubt that Deputy Bruton and others know — and if they do not know they should — that next year is the start of the single market. Every Member knows that VAT at the point of entry, which represents up to £200 million, must cease on 1 January. It is a cash flow deficiency for 1993 and represents about 1 per cent of borrowing for next year. Deputy Bruton and others know that the effect of the drop in revenue from DIRT tax represents between £90 million and £100 million. That is not news to anybody and for speakers and some political leaders to come in here and say that borrowing targets are being thrown out the window is nonsense when they clearly know what the position is.

Crocodile tears have been shed here this afternoon for those of us who are engaged in talks at the moment. I would remind the various Members who spoke about the long delays in the formation of a Government that it is just six days since these talks started. Two and a half weeks have elapsed while people over there spent time talking about talks but there was no talk about that today. It took six weeks to form the last Government and three weeks of solid talks went on at that time. Are people over there suggesting that we should spend Christmas day in here? We have families to, like everybody else, and we will be back in time to start those negotiations.

What is more important is the question of the policies to be laid down to confront the social and economic issues of this country. In the meantime this Government is reacting and taking decisions in relation to the major issues that arise. We have not disregarded homelessness in this city.

Mr. Allen

The Taoiseach brought in the Army — Hitler's answer.

The Taoiseach

I know the Deputy does not like to hear the truth but we will continue to tackle that problem and it will form part of the priorities of the next Government if Fianna Fáil is involved in it. Indeed, the Labour Party has very similar concerns.

We have confronted the currency crisis that Deputy Harte raised. A very significant number of farmers are benefiting. It is not sufficient because this crisis is going on much longer than we expected. The Minister for Finance and I had long discussions with the business community on the effects this crisis is having outside the areas that have been assisted up to now. Various suggestions were put to us and we are having those examined. It will have to be at the top of the agenda for the next Government also.

We have appointed a new Commissioner and, despite the cat calls from over there that he would end up with a rag bag of a job because we were so long in making that appointment — I held back on making that appointment to the last to give every opportunity to the House to form a Government; in the end we did our national duty and made that appointment — that appointment has been rewarded with a very worth while Commissioner's job with new responsibilities placed on Commissioner Flynn. I am glad everyone responded with good will and good wishes for the success of the Commissioner and for this country as well. This Government will continue to take the decisions that have to be taken.

It is in the interests of the country to get a Government as soon as possible but to come in here with hypocritical speeches to try to denigrate the negotiations that have only started is unreasonable. It is seriously being suggested that we should stay here over Christmas and St. Stephen's Day to fulfil those obligations while we have a Government in power? What is more important is that the foundations are correct. The foundations on which any house is built should be strong. This House should be more concerned with the policies that emanate from discussions, whatever party or parties from the Government. It is a denial of the rights of democracy and of the people who voted for the two parties now in negotiations to say that they are not entitled to sit down to see if they can work out a policy for Government. The people voted for change and the policies of the next Government will determine whether change will come about.

Mr. Carey

The Taoiseach sought an overall majority, a single party Government.

The Taoiseach

We did not get it.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Carey, please desist.

Mr. Carey

That is what the Taoiseach looked for.

(Interruptions.)

The Taoiseach

The Deputy's party looked for a rainbow coalition but it lost ten seats. I do not think that it should shout too loudly about that either.

(Interruptions.)

The Taoiseach

I am not interested in that kind of nonsense. The people have voted and it is up to this House to decide how best their wishes and aspirations can be met in the formation of the next Government. We are engaged in that process. From the start this party said the other side of the House had the arithmetic to put a Government together. They spent two-and-a-half weeks talking about talks but did not put a Government together. This party responded to an invitation to sit down with another party, which was the only party to ask us to sit down and talk. That is what we are doing at the moment and we await the outcome and conclusion of those discussions to see what they may bring.

In the meantime, it would be better if people did not engage in hypocrisy——

Mr. Allen

What about honesty?

The Taoiseach

——because we all know the facts, that 1993 is going to be a very difficult year, irrespective of which party or parties form the next Government. There is no point trying to pretend that the borrowing requirements will be thrown out the window because of certain once off situations which will have to be accommodated next year. That is the reality and any Member who says otherwise is not being honest with the people.

The Dáil adjourned at 1.15 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 5 January 1993.

Dáil Éireann debate - Tuesday, 22 Dec 1992