It is proposed to take Nos. 7 and 1.
Order of Business.
A Cheann Comhairle, I insist on being heard on a point of order. You are deliberately ignoring a point of order which I seek to raise. I do not intend to sit down until you hear me.
Deputy, there can be no point of order on my ruling.
I have to shout in this House in order to be heard on a point of order.
I have said my ruling cannot be challenged.
I am not seeking to challenge your ruling, I am seeking to raise a point of order.
I am calling the Taoiseach.
It is also proposed notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders that——
I am seeking to raise a point of order, a Cheann Comhairle. I am not challenging your decision, I am seeking to raise a point of order.
The Deputy may not challenge my ruling in this manner.
——(1) Business shall be interrupted not later than 4.45 p.m. today; and (2) the Dáil at its rising today shall adjourn until 2.30 p.m. on Wednesday next.
I am not challenging your decision, I am seeking to raise a point of order.
Let us hear it, Deputy.
Thank you very much; you are something else.
The Deputy's insolence towards the Chair will get him nowhere.
A Cheann Comhairle, your insolence towards me is quite extraordinary.
There is a lot of fascist stuff around here this morning.
I have to shout in this House in order to be heard on a legitimate point of order.
The problem is on the Government side, not here.
I cannot conceive how there could be a point of order on my ruling. The Chairman's ruling in this House is not challenged in this fashion.
You cannot conceive permitting him to make a full sentence.
If you had heard me you would know that I am not challenging your order.
Let us hear the point of order.
I think the Chair is shortchanging the House.
Standing Order 143 (2) reads:
Provided that in cases of urgent necessity, of which the Ceann Comhairle shall be the judge, any Standing Order or Orders may be suspended upon motion made without notice. If such motion be opposed the Ceann Comhairle shall permit an explanatory statement from the member who moves it and a statement from a member who opposes it before he puts the question thereon.
Under that Standing Order I propose that this House adjourns to debate the very serious matter which has been revealed over the past 24 hours.
I understand the Deputy's point of order. The Deputy gave me no notice of raising this matter, there is no notice before the House——
It does not require notice to be given.
The Standing Order says that notice does not have to be given.
In any event the Standing Order which the Deputy has invoked may be moved only in Private Members' time.
Standing Order 143 makes no reference to Private Members' time. It makes it very clear that notice is not required.
Deputy, this has been the long tradition of the House.
It also makes it clear that, in cases of urgency, this Standing Order comes into effect. It is a device——
A private Member has no right to move a motion in Government time.
This is the Standing Order which provides Members of this House with the opportunity to raise matters of urgency.
I will hear no further points.
A Cheann Comhairle, on a point of order, you are making up Standing Orders as you go along. Let me read Standing Order 143 (2) to you again. It says that "Any standing order or orders may be suspended upon motion made without notice;" I repeat "without notice". Now, Sir, that is what the Standing Order says and you do not have leave to interpret it in a way that happens to suit the Government.
I repeat that such a motion cannot be moved by a private Member in Government time.
Why not? It is in the Standing Orders.
The Taoiseach on the Order of Business.
It is really distressing that, on a fundamental issue affecting this country, you will not permit the use of Standing Orders to allow a debate. You are protecting the Government.
That is a gross insinuation, Deputy——
I repeat that it is proposed to take Nos. 7 and 1——
It is a gross abuse of Standing Orders not to allow a debate on a fundamental issue affecting this country.
I must now call on Deputy Rabbitte to withdraw that dirty insinuation, without reservation, or otherwise withdraw from this House.
A Cheann Comhairle, it is not intended as a dirty insinuation. The effect of what you are doing is to protect the most incompetent Government we have seen in the history of this State; it cannot even count.
Deputy Rabbitte, you will withdraw the ugly remark made against the Chair or withdraw from the House.
I can see very little purpose being served by withdrawing from the House but I still think you are unfairly interpreting Standing Orders.
Deputy Rabbitte may not continue to insult the Chair. He will withdraw the remark unreservedly or depart from the House.
It is not the Ceann Comhairle who let the country down.
The people opposite ought to be ashamed of themselves; open Government, my foot.
A Cheann Comhairle, I did not intend any particular inputation against you but against the Government that does not permit us to debate the issue.
Deputy, please desist. Let us hear the Taoiseach on the Order of Business.
I repeat:
It is proposed to take Nos. 7 and 1. It is also proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders that: (1) Business shall be interrupted not later than 4.45 p.m. today; and (2) the Dáil at its rising today shall adjourn until 2.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 27 October 1993.
Is the Taoiseach sure he got it right?
I must first put the proposition that business be interrupted not later than 4.45 p.m. today.
Sir, no business should be taken and business should not be interrupted until we establish whether we have truthful and competent Ministers dealing with European affairs on behalf of the people of this country. My party rejects the taking of any business until the credibility of the Tánaiste is put to the test in this House and the credibility and collective responsibility of the Minister for Finance is also put to the test. This is the most humiliating fiasco in Irish international relations in recent years. The Taoiseach, the Tánaiste and the Minister for Finance are unsuitable for office.
(Interruptions.)
They should read the debate on the motion of confidence that was taken before the last general election. They bought into the nods and winks.
I agree with Deputy Bruton that it would be a farce to take any business today other than to discuss the fiasco in which the Government has landed us. On 4 October the President of the European Commission told the Tánaiste that this money was not available and on 8 October the Minister for Finance and Minister of State were told. Still we were deceived in this House as late as yesterday.
(Interruptions.)
We should bring Tommy Gorman in here. He told us more than this Government about what is going on. It is a disgrace.
Please, I have allowed Deputies latitude on the Order of Business only.
If we cannot discuss the issue today I intend to table a motion of no confidence in this Government. It is a fiasco.
It did not take the Labour Party long to buy into it.
(Interruptions.)
We know the numbers, yes, but it does not know them.
Sheep, sheep.
That, coming from the biggest shepherd in the business.
(Interruptions.)
Order, please Deputies. Will Deputy McDowell please allow the proceedings to continue in an orderly fashion?
A Cheann Comhairle, it is regrettable that we have been unable, through the use of normal Standing Orders, to achieve a debate in this House on a matter of crucial importance to the credibility of this Government. We have tried under Standing Order 30, and I have tried under Standing Order 143, to achieve a reasonable and rational debate in this House on very serious matters relating to a deception of this House by the Taoiseach, the Tánaiste and Minister for Finance. The fact that apparently the Minister for Finance and the Minister for Enterprise and Employment do not talk to each other about what the Government is doing, would lead one to wonder about this wonderful relationship between the Labour Party and Fianna Fáil.
We must have brief remarks at this stage.
(Interruptions.)
(Limerick East): The dowry.
The very least that should happen here today is that the Minister for Finance and the Tánaiste should come into this House and make personal statements as to what precisely they were at when they misled the House into believing that they had £7.8 billion, perhaps even £8 billion, in the bag.
The Deputy is anticipating a debate on that matter——
I am not anticipating a debate, Sir, we do not have a debate because you have refused to allow one. On that basis I intend to oppose the proposal to vary Standing Orders here this morning on the Order of Business.
(Interruptions.)
Those democrats over there do not believe in debate.
What a joke.
I am putting the question: "That business be interrupted not later than 4.45 p.m. today".
The Dáil divided: Tá, 70; Níl, 48.
Tá
- Ahren, Bertie.
- Ahern, Noel.
- Andrews, David.
- Aylward, Liam.
- Bree, Declan.
- Broughan, Tommy.
- Browne, John (Wexford).
- Burke, Raphael P.
- Byrne, Hugh.
- Callely, Ivor.
- Collins, Gerard.
- Costello, Joe.
- Coughlan, Mary.
- Cowen, Brian.
- Doherty, Seán.
- Ellis, John.
- Ferris, Michael.
- Fitzgerald, Brian.
- Fitzgerald, Eithne.
- Fitzgerald, Liam.
- Flood, Chris.
- Gallagher, Pat the Cope.
- Gallagher, Pat.
- Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
- Haughey, Seán.
- Higgins, Michael D.
- Hilliard, Colm M.
- Howlin, Brendan.
- Hughes, Séamus.
- Jacob, Joe.
- Kavanagh, Liam.
- Kenneally, Brendan.
- Kenny, Seán.
- Killeen, Tony.
- Kirk, Séamus.
- Kitt, Michael P.
- Kitt, Tom.
- Lawlor, Liam.
- Leonard, Jimmy.
- Martin, Micheál.
- McDaid, James.
- McDowell, Derek.
- Moffatt, Tom.
- Morley, P.J.
- Moynihan-Cronin, Breeda.
- Mulvihill, John.
- Nolan, M. J.
- Ó Cuív, Éamon.
- O'Dea, Willie.
- O'Hanlon, Rory.
- O'Keeffe, Batt.
- O'Leary, John.
- O'Sullivan, Gerry.
- O'Sullivan, Toddy.
- Penrose, William.
- Power, Seán.
- Quinn, Ruairí.
- Reynolds, Albert.
- Ryan, Eoin.
- Ryan, Seán.
- Shortall, Róisín.
- Smith, Michael.
- Spring, Dick.
- Stagg, Emmet.
- Treacy, Noel.
- Upton, Pat.
- Wallace, Dan.
- Walsh, Eamon.
- Walsh, Joe.
- Woods, Michael.
Níl
- Allen, Bernard.
- Barrett, Seán.
- Boylan, Andrew.
- Browne, John (Carlow-Kilkenny).
- Bruton, John.
- Bruton, Richard.
- Carey, Donal.
- Clohessy, Peadar.
- Connaughton, Paul.
- Connor, John.
- Cox, Pat.
- Crawford, Seymour.
- Creed, Michael.
- Cullen, Martin.
- Currie, Austin.
- Deasy, Austin.
- Deenihan, Jimmy.
- De Rossa, Proinsias.
- Doyle, Avril.
- Durkan, Bernard J.
- Finucane, Michael.
- Fitzgerald, Frances.
- Quill, Máirín.
- Rabbitte, Pat.
- Sargent, Trevor.
- Flaherty, Mary.
- Flanagan, Charles.
- Gilmore, Eamon.
- Gregory, Tony.
- Harney, Mary.
- Harte, Paddy.
- Higgins, Jim.
- Hogan, Philip.
- Kenny, Enda.
- Keogh, Helen.
- McCormack, Pádraic.
- McDowell, Michael.
- McGrath, Paul.
- McManus, Liz.
- Mitchell, Jim.
- Molloy, Robert.
- Nealon, Ted.
- Noonan, Michael.
- (Limerick East).
- O'Donnell, Liz.
- O'Keeffe, Jim.
- Owen, Nora.
- Sheehan, P.J.
- Yates, Ivan.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Gallagher(Donegal South West) and Ferris; Níl, Deputies E. Kenny and Boylan.
Question declared carried.
The next question before the House is that the Dáil at its rising today shall adjourn until 2.30 p.m. on Wednesday next.
I wish to propose an amendment to the proposal and to substitute "Tuesday, 26 October" for "Wednesday, 27 October 1993". The Dáil should meet next Tuesday at the very latest to debate the integrity of the national plan submitted by the Government, the assurances given by the Government in relation to its funding and the status of the Government's statements in regard to operational programmes in view of the fact that apparently the funding no longer exists for the programmes which were put forward in ministerial statements. It appears that, if Ministers had told the truth, no such funding ever existed.
I am not happy with the way the Government is handling this issue. At the very least I would have thought the Tánaiste and the Minister for Finance would have made us aware of what exactly went on. As I said earlier, this is an issue of confidence in the Government. It is about to negotiate with the social partners although it is not capable of negotiating with anyone.
We could not agree to normal business being taken today and the House adjourning until next Wednesday if the Government insists on being silent on this issue.
What about open Government?
No Government?
I support Deputy John Bruton's proposal that the House reconvenes on Tuesday, instead of Wednesday as proposed. It is not proper that this House should not have the opportunity to debate the most appalling episode of fraud and deception perpetrated on this House.
The Deputy should consider such remarks more carefully.
We need to know — may I finish the point?
Withdraw the charges of fraud.
Let me say——
Order, please.
Will the Chair ask the Deputy to withdraw charges of fraud and deception? I will not accept such allegations on the part of this Government.
Invite Jacques Delors here.
It is gross deception and the Taoiseach knows it.
Charges of fraud or deception are not acceptable and will not be acceptable.
It is deception.
Why is the Taoiseach afraid to debate the issue?
Look at the first page of the Taoiseach's script.
(Deputy De Rossa rose.)
Deputy De Rossa, I am on my feet. Will you please resume your seat? Deputy De Rossa, you used words that constitute serious charges against Members of this House. I am asking you to modify that kind of language. If serious charges are made against any Member of this House, they should be made by way of a substantive motion.
The Tánaiste has an opportunity to come into this House and explain precisely the Government claims that they had £7.8 billion, which was clearly not true and which they knew was not true. That is deliberate fraud and deception.
Sir, before the House proceeds, will the allegations of fraud and deception levelled by a Member against this Government be withdrawn?
Are you joking?
(Interruptions.)
We insist they are withdrawn.
What is your reply to that?
Order, Deputy De Rossa, hear the Chair.
I heard the Chair but I also heard the Taoiseach and he has not offered us an explanation.
Deputy De Rossa is interrupting the Chair continually. The Deputy must restrain himself.
Sir, you should see me when I am not restraining myself.
A Deputy
We heard about it.
I would not like to see that. The Deputy made serious allegations against a Member of this House.
Against the Government.
If it is against the Government, it is a political charge; if it is against an individual it must be withdrawn.
Will the Taoiseach accept deception and fourchette tongue incompetence?
I do not accept an allegation of deception of fraud from any Member of this House. I want it withdrawn before the House proceeds.
The Taoiseach misled the Táaiste.
I did not mislead anyone.
Why is the Taoiseach afraid to have it debated?
The Taoiseach told lies.
I am insisting on that being withdrawn before the House proceeds.
The allegations that the Taoiseach or any Member of his cabinet deliberately misled the House or was guilty of fraud and deception must be withdrawn.
(Interruptions.)
When a Member of this House makes a disclaimer his word must be accepted.
The President of the Community called them lies.
The Chair does not know of any other way to proceed. I am now asking Deputy De Rossa to modify his language and withdraw the charges against the Taoiseach.
On a Point of Order, Sir, when the Taoiseach stands to speak to us is he speaking on his own behalf or on behalf of the Government?
Ask them to shake hands on it.
Is there collective responsibility? Did the Taoiseach not come into this House and tell us that he had £8 billion in the bag, although he knew he had not. That is deliberate deception.
Deputy De Rossa, no Member of this House may allege that any Member of the House deliberately misled the House, an allegation that is tantamount to saying the Member has lied. The Member's disclaimer must be accepted. I asked the Deputy to withdraw his remark.
On a point of order, Sir——
If the allegations are not withdrawn I propose to adjourn the House.
(Interruptions.)
Is it not enough that the Government made this country look foolish on the world stage, without making it look more foolish by attempting to expel a Member for saying what everybody in the country knows to be true?
Clear the air.
There are rules and precedents governing the Chair and the House and I am adhering to these principles. If a Member disclaims the serious allegations made, his word must be accepted and the allegation made by the Deputy must be withdrawn.
We have the figures, he cannot deny the facts.
Neither the Taoiseach nor the Tánaiste has made that disclaimer.
(Interruptions.)
I stated earlier that if serious allegations are to be made against any Member of this House——
Jacques Delors is in trouble then.
The Taoiseach should stand up and tell us what happened.
(Interruptions.)
——they must be made by way of substantive motion. Again, I ask the Deputy to withdraw the charges made on the grounds of the disclaimer by the Taoiseach.
That is ridiculous.
(Interruptions.)
We had better bring Jacques Delors in and ask him what happened.
Do not make it worse.
Do you want to hear me?
Is the Deputy going to withdraw his allegations or not?
The Government should tell us how it has deceived this House.
The Taoiseach should stand up and tell us what happened.
(Interruptions.)
I have to ask the Deputy to withdraw his allegations or withdraw from the House.
This is a farce.
(Interruptions.)
People are entitled to tell the truth in this House.
(Interruptions.)
The Chair is seeking to maintain order and decorum and to proceed in accordance with precedent. The Deputy may not make such allegations against any Member of this House.
People are entitled to tell the truth in this House and I will not withdraw from the House.
(Interruptions.)
If the Chair's rulings are defied——
A Cheann Comhairle——
——on this matter, and we are strictly in accordance with precedent——
(Interruptions.)
The Government does not know the difference between a fourchette and a faux pas.
Democracy is being stifled.
If a Member makes an allegation against another Member and refuses to withdraw it, I have no option, having regard to continued disorder and refusal to obey the Chair, but to adjourn the House.
Sitting suspended at 11.12 a.m. and resumed at 11.55 a.m.
I most ardently express the hope that the sorry incidence of gross disorder witnessed this morning is behind us. In this great democratic assembly free speech shall prevail.
Transparency.
As a prerequisite to free speech, orderliness must prevail. I was dealing with a matter of disorder. I had asked Deputy De Rossa to withdraw serious allegations he made against certain members of the Government, in particular An Taoiseach.
No, against the Government.
I asked the Deputy to withdraw his remarks and he has refused to do so. I have told the House that when an allegation of a serious kind is made against a Member of this House and that Member denies and repudiates the allegation, the word of that Member must be accepted. We are all honourable men here. I do not know how to proceed other than that when a Member makes a disclaimer of an allegation of this kind, his word should be accepted. I now ask Deputy De Rossa if he will please withdraw the allegation he made.
No disclaimer was made.
I have not said anything in this House today that is untrue and I have no intention of withdrawing what I said.
In that instance, Deputy——
A Cheann Comhairle, may I——
——since you are defying the Chair in this manner——
(Interruptions.)
The authority of the Chair must be upheld. If the Deputy does not withdraw the remarks made, which have been disclaimed by the Member concerned, I have no option but to name him.
The Chair has made one rule for the Taoiseach——
On a point of order, I ask the Chair to allow me exercise my right to free speech.
(Interruptions.)
I now proceed to name Deputy De Rossa. I must ask that he be suspended from the service of the House.
(Interruptions.)
Question put: "That Deputy De Rossa be suspended from the service of the House."
The Dáil divided: Tá, 67; Níl, 49.
Tá
- Ahern, Bertie.
- Andrews, David.
- Aylward, Liam.
- Bree, Declan.
- Briscoe, Ben.
- Broughan, Tommy.
- Browne, John (Wexford).
- Burke, Raphael P.
- Byrne, Hugh.
- Callely, Ivor.
- Collins, Gerard.
- Costello, Joe.
- Coughlan, Mary.
- Cowen, Brian.
- Dempsey, Noel.
- Doherty, Seán.
- Ellis, John.
- Ferris, Michael.
- Fitzgerald, Brian.
- Fitzgerald, Eithne.
- Fitzgerald, Liam.
- Flood, Chris.
- Gallagher, Pat the Cope.
- Gallagher, Pat.
- Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
- Haughey, Seán.
- Higgins, Michael D.
- Hilliard, Colm M.
- Hughes, Séamus.
- Jacob, Joe.
- Kavanagh, Liam.
- Kenneally, Brendan.
- Kenny, Seán.
- Killeen, Tony.
- Kirk, Séamus.
- Kitt, Michael P.
- Lenihan, Brian.
- Leonard, Jimmy.
- Martin, Micheál.
- McDaid, James.
- McDowell, Derek.
- Moffatt, Tom.
- Moynihan-Cronin, Breeda.
- Mulvihill, John.
- Nolan, M. J.
- Ó Cuív, Éamon.
- O'Dea, Willie.
- O'Hanlon, Rory.
- O'Keeffe, Batt.
- O'Leary, John.
- O'Rourke, Mary.
- O'Sullivan, Gerry.
- O'Sullivan, Toddy.
- Penrose, William.
- Power, Seán.
- Quinn, Ruairí.
- Reynolds, Albert.
- Shortall, Róisín.
- Smith, Michael.
- Spring, Dick.
- Stagg, Emmet.
- Treacy, Noel.
- Upton, Pat.
- Wallace, Dan.
- Walsh, Eamon.
- Walsh, Joe.
- Woods, Michael.
Níl
- Allen, Bernard.
- Barrett, Seán.
- Boylan, Andrew.
- Browne, John (Carlow-Kilkenny).
- Bruton, John.
- Bruton, Richard.
- Carey, Donal.
- Clohessy, Peadar.
- Connaughton, Paul.
- Doyle, Avril.
- Durkan, Bernard J.
- Finucane, Michael.
- Fitzgerald, Frances.
- Flaherty, Mary.
- Flanagan, Charles.
- Fox, Johnny.
- Gilmore, Eamon.
- Harney, Mary.
- Harte, Paddy.
- Higgins, Jim.
- Hogan, Philip.
- Kenny, Enda.
- Keogh, Helen.
- Lowry, Michael.
- McCormack, Pádraic.
- Connor, John.
- Cox, Pat.
- Crawford, Seymour.
- Creed, Michael.
- Cullen, Martin.
- Currie, Austin.
- Deasy, Austin.
- Deenihan, Jimmy.
- De Rossa, Proinsias.
- McDowell, Michael.
- McGrath, Paul.
- McManus, Liz.
- Mitchell, Gay.
- Mitchell, Jim.
- Molloy, Robert.
- Nealon, Ted.
- Noonan, Michael.
- (Limerick East).
- O'Donnell, Liz.
- O'Keeffe, Jim.
- Owen, Nora.
- Quill, Máirín.
- Rabbitte, Pat.
- Sheehan, P.J.
- Yates, Ivan.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Dempsey and Ferris; Níl, Deputies E. Kenny and Boylan.
Question declared carried.
The Deputy will now comply with the order of the House. I am proceeding to item No. 2——
In the light of the decision of this House——
I am sorry, but the Deputy will now comply with the order of the Dáil.
I should at least be given the courtesy——
No, Deputy; when a motion suspending a Member is adopted that Member should remove himself from the House and comply with the order.
The people who have cost us 10,000 jobs should be put out of this House.
Deputy De Rossa withdrew from the Chamber.
(Interruptions.)
The next question is: "That the Dáil at its rising today shall adjourn until 2.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 27 October 1993". I have to tell Deputy Bruton that, regretfully, his amendment is not in order as Tuesday is provided for in our Standing Orders.
I propose that we do not adopt this motion because if it is not adopted the Dáil will have to meet on Tuesday under Standing Orders.
That is so.
It is essential that the Dáil should meet on Tuesday to discuss the deceptive statements made by Ministers during the debate on the National Development Plan.
The Deputy should withdraw that remark.
Unless the credibility of the Government is re-established we cannot continue.
I ask Members to please moderate their language and not to make allegations against Members impugning their character or integrity.
(Interruptions.)
There was deception in this House.
There was no truthful basis for the National Development Plan; Ministers' statements made in this House were not accurate and the House was misled. There is no basis for proceeding with any other business until this matter is cleared up.
Nonsense.
As requested, I will try to show some respect in terms of the language used.
Good.
On the central issue before us today I would like, if I may, to give two brief quotations, not to cause offence but to invite the House to reflect on how there might be some accountability in respect of the gap between the two.
The Deputy will appreciate that the matter is not strictly appropriate to the Order of Business.
I do not wish to show disrespect——
This is not in order.
——but I would like to quote what the Minister for Finance said in his statement to the House last week during the course of the debate on the National Development Plan. He said that "Total EC aid provided for in the plan amounts to just under £8 billion".
The Deputy may not proceed along those lines at this stage.
This morning on radio M. Jacques Delors said: "Last week there is, if my memory good, an informal meeting with the Minister for Finance. Mr. Ahern say, please, if you could postpone the decision, your decision, until the presentation of the Irish plan before the Parliament I would be very grateful".
The Deputy is making a speech on a matter which is not before the House.
(Interruptions.)
I will not give any further quotations but there is a major gap between those two quotations and it requires an explanation in this House, not on radio.
There are ways and means of raising that matter in this House.
In this House today we have been seeking to ensure that an account is given of something that many would see as duplicitous or a falsehood——
There are many ways of raising the matter; it is not in order now.
It is GUBU of first rank and it demands an explanation in this House, not on national radio on the "Pat Kenny Show". This House is owed an explanation.
I ask the Deputy to please resume his seat.
This Government said that its hallmarks would be openness and accountability. What we are asking is where are they?
Doubtless Members will have an opportunity of raising this matter at the appropriate time.
When?
I repeat that there are many ways of raising the matter in this House and Members of the Opposition in particular may avail of Private Members' time to table a motion on the matter.
(Interruptions.)
Let the Taoiseach clear the air once and for all.
I wish to say that this is the first time in the history of the House that a Member has been suspended for telling the truth.
I cannot accept that reflection of the facts.
I will not be intimidated by the Chair, I will make my point. I have in front of me the decision made by the European Commission this morning and I want to put it on the record of the House.
I am putting the question: "That the Dáil at its rising today shall adjourn until 2.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 27 October 1993".
You may not rule me out; I rose on the Order of Business and I will make my point.
(Interruptions.)
Of course he can.
Let us keep the Bart Simpson of this Government out of it.
As long as I occupy this Chair I will not be dictated to or intimidated by any Member.
On a point of order, I have before me the decision taken this morning on Mr. Bruce Millan's motion in Brussels——
The Deputy should raise that matter at the appropriate time. I am putting the question: "That the Dáil at its rising today shall adjourn until 2.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 27 October 1993".
(Interruptions.)
These are matters of fact.
It is to allow £7.2 billion. Is that not political fraud?
The Taoiseach rose.
I was seeking to get on with the Order of Business.
A Cheann Comhairle——
Will you hear the Taoiseach for a moment?
The decision is that £7.2 billion is to be made available. On 14 October the Taoiseach told the House that the figure would be approximately £8 billion.
I am putting the question again and I hope I will not be interrupted this time.
Now, who is telling lies in this House? It is the biggest dropped ball in the history of Government in this country. I want to make the point that the European Commission has made its decision and the figure is £7.2 billion. Who is telling the truth?
Question put: "That the Dáil at its rising today shall adjourn until 2.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 27 October 1993".
The Dáil divided: Tá, 69; Níl, 49.
Tá
- Ahern, Bertie.
- Ahern, Noel.
- Andrews, David.
- Aylward, Liam.
- Bree, Declan.
- Briscoe, Ben.
- Broughan, Tommy.
- Browne, John (Wexford).
- Doherty, Seán.
- Ellis, John.
- Ferris, Michael.
- Fitzgerald, Brian.
- Fitzgerald, Eithne.
- Fitzgerald, Liam.
- Flood, Chris.
- Gallagher, Pat the Cope.
- Gallagher, Pat.
- Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
- Haughey, Seán.
- Higgins, Michael D.
- Hilliard, Colm M.
- Hughes, Séamus.
- Jacob, Joe.
- Kavanagh, Liam.
- Kenneally, Brendan.
- Kenny, Seán.
- Killeen, Tony.
- Kirk, Séamus.
- Kitt, Michael P.
- Lenihan, Brian.
- Leonard, Jimmy.
- Martin, Micheál.
- McDaid, James.
- McDowell, Derek.
- Burke, Raphael P.
- Byrne, Hugh.
- Callely, Ivor.
- Collins, Gerard.
- Costello, Joe.
- Coughlan, Mary.
- Cowen, Brian.
- Dempsey, Noel.
- Moffatt, Tom.
- Moynihan-Cronin, Breeda.
- Mulvihill, John.
- Nolan, M. J.
- Ó Cuív, Éamon.
- O'Dea, Willie.
- O'Hanlon, Rory.
- O'Keeffe, Batt.
- O'Leary, John.
- O'Rourke, Mary.
- O'Sullivan, Gerry.
- O'Sullivan, Toddy.
- Penrose, William.
- Power, Seán.
- Quinn, Ruairí.
- Reynolds, Albert.
- Ryan, Eoin.
- Shortall, Róisín.
- Smith, Michael.
- Spring, Dick.
- Stagg, Emmet.
- Treacy, Noel.
- Upton, Pat.
- Wallace, Dan.
- Walsh, Eamon.
- Walsh, Joe.
- Woods, Michael.
Níl
- Allen, Bernard.
- Barrett, Seán.
- Boylan, Andrew.
- Browne, John (Carlow-Kilkenny).
- Bruton, John.
- Bruton, Richard.
- Carey, Donal.
- Clohessy, Peadar.
- Connaughton, Paul.
- Connor, John.
- Cox, Pat.
- Crawford, Seymour.
- Creed, Michael.
- Cullen, Martin.
- Currie, Austin.
- Deasy, Austin.
- Deenihan, Jimmy.
- Doyle, Avril.
- Durkan, Bernard J.
- Finucane, Michael.
- Fitzgerald, Frances.
- Flaherty, Mary.
- Flanagan, Charles.
- Fox, Johnny.
- Gilmore, Eamon.
- Gregory, Tony.
- Harney, Mary.
- Harte, Paddy.
- Higgins, Jim.
- Hogan, Philip.
- Kenny, Enda.
- Keogh, Helen.
- Lowry, Michael.
- McCormack, Pádraic.
- McDowell, Michael.
- McGrath, Paul.
- McManus, Liz.
- Mitchell, Gay.
- Mitchell, Jim.
- Molloy, Robert.
- Nealon, Ted.
- Noonan, Michael.
- (Limerick East).
- O'Donnell, Liz.
- O'Keeffe, Jim.
- Owen, Nora.
- Quill, Máirín.
- Rabbitte, Pat.
- Sheehan, P.J.
- Yates, Ivan.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Dempsey and Ferris; Níl, Deputies E. Kenny and Boylan.
Question declared carried.
I am not prepared to accept anything at this stage other than what is appropriate to the Order of Business.
Not since Nero fiddled when Rome was burning has there been such a travesty. We can talk about everything except what matters to this House.
In respect of the business of this House the Opposition parties have used every method — Standing Order 30, calling for a debate in the House today and calling for the Dáil to meet next Tuesday — to debate the matter whereby the Government made deceptive statements to this House in regard to the national plan.
(Interruptions.)
I am anxious that we uphold the dignity and decorum of this House——
And the function of this House.
——and proceed to do our business.
We have now reached a situation whereby this House can have no confidence in the Taoiseach, the Tánaiste, the Minister for Finance, the Minister of State at the Department of Finance or any of the people involved in this matter.
We voted to adjourn the House until Wednesday, but we might as well adjourn permanently because there is no point in the House sitting.
I tried three times to contribute but was prevented by the boisterous voices of the Opposition. I have a contribution to make towards the order of this business and when I get an opportunity I will do so.
The Chair is doing his utmost to maintain order and decorum and should be assisted in the matter.
On one side only.
As the decision has been made and the Minister has been on the "Pat Kenny Show", why will he not speak here? He is accountable to this House. The Tánaiste's trip last night cost £100 million, the most expensive trip ever to Brussels.
May I ask the Taoiseach when he will tell the House the impact on his legislative programme of the fact that as a result of the Tánaiste's visit to Brussels last night we lost another £100 million? Can we afford to continue sending this man out of the country? This is more expensive than the Waldorf Astoria and you will not permit us to discuss the matter.
All the disruption, disorder and loud shouting in this House is not going to do the business of the House——
Deputies
What business?
——or the business for which we were elected.
You were not elected to be Taoiseach.
I urge Members not to shout down any Member of the House.
The Labour Party gave the Taoiseach a present.
That is contrary to the democratic spirit of the House.
(Interruptions.)
If we are not going to have order I have no option but to adjourn the proceedings again.
I hope that every Member of this House will subscribe to your continuing efforts to restore order to the House. We are here to do a job and we should all take that seriously.
The Taoiseach is not able to do it.
Deputies should please restrain themselves and hear the Taoiseach.
Why not give the same protection to this side of the House?
The Opposition——
When are you going to let in the light?
I did not interrupt the Deputy or any other Deputy. I sat here quietly for an hour. I made three attempts to intervene to be of assistance to this House but I was shouted down. That is not the way to do business in the House. Will the Deputies please listen?
I do not think the House needs the Taoiseach's assistance.
Why did the Taoiseach mislead the House?
There will be plenty of opportunity in this House to debate every aspect——
Deputies
When?
Please hear the Taoiseach out.
They can go on the "Pat Kenny Show" but not——
Deputy, please.
There will be plenty of opportunity in the House to debate every aspect of this matter. The Commission finished its meeting only about half an hour ago, yet people are shouting their heads off in this House not knowing what decisions have been made——
(Interruptions.)
Ciúnas, le do thoil.
——or how they are going to be interpreted.
We have enough of the Taoiseach's interpretations.
We have enough of the Deputy's insolence.
Is there any point in trying to proceed in a democratic Parliament with this kind of behaviour?
We need an interpretative centre.
It is deplorable to observe a shouting match in this House. No one can be heard without continuous interruption. I have done my best.
You will continue to do your best, Sir, and you will get full support from this side of the House.
That is not worth much.
The country is watching this Parliament and what does it see? It sees nothing but disorderly behaviour from everybody. If I interpreted Deputy Bruton correctly, he gave notice of a no confidence motion to be taken next Wednesday. I will tell him here and now that such a motion is accepted and he will have all the time he likes to debate it. Between now and Tuesday I ask everybody to acquaint themselves with the full facts of the matter——
(Interruptions.)
——especially with the agreement reached last night in Brussels between the Tánaiste on behalf of the Irish Government, President Jacques Delors and Bruce Millan, Commissioner for Regional Funds.
Did the Taoiseach hear what he said about him this morning?
If the Deputy does not wish to hear the truth he should not listen. The Tánaiste, President Delors and Commissioner Millan had a very constructive meeting in advance of tomorrow's Commission meeting. The figures which will be proposed to the Commission tomorrow are indicative and do not constitute final quotas. The range for Ireland to be tabled at tomorrow's Commission meeting remains that as proposed to the Tánaiste in July 1993 — 8.1 to 9.3 billion ECU——
(Interruptions.)
I know that Deputies do not want to hear the facts.
Does the Taoiseach know the difference between a punt and an ECU?
The Deputies do not want to hear the facts.
(Interruptions.)
This shouting should cease.
Does the Taoiseach know what an ECU is?
I am afraid it is a Kerry joke.
This is equivalent to £7.84 billion at 1993 prices.
What is?
If the Deputy listens he will hear.
President Delors and Commissioner Millan——
Play it again Sam.
——said that the Irish National Development Plan is up to the high standard which has been the norm for Ireland in the past. I remind Deputies that I led the negotiating team for Ireland in 1989 when there was a similar debate in this House — it was said that we did not get a doubling of the funds or a commitment for £3 billion. I wish to inform the House that the indicative figure at that time was £2.8 billion, yet this country drew down in excess of £3.4 billion, an additional £600 million, over a shorter period.
History.
Is the Taoiseach calling President Delors a liar?
(Interruptions.)
I wish to again put it on the record of this House that our plan and programmes will be good enough to draw down the difference between the figure referred today and the figure available.
Bluster.
The Opposition parties can have all the time they want next week to debate this issue by way of a no confidence motion or any other type of motion.
(Interruptions.)
More bluster.
That statement is a one page fig leaf which cost an extra £100 million last night.
Members will have ample time to discuss this matter——
Is that 100 per cent certain?
There is only one side in this House battling for——
(Interruptions.)
Will the Deputies please help the Chair?
The parties opposite will be in permanent Opposition.
I have been seeking to raise a point of order for quite some time. Before Deputy De Rossa was named by the Taoiseach you, Sir, said he had accused the Minister of telling lies and there was a disclaimer——
Sorry, I am proceeding to deal with the Order of Business proper.
It is not acceptable——
Sorry, Deputy.
On a point of order——
On a point of order——
Deputies, I beg of you not to raise spurious points of order at this time.
Following the reference to a motion of no confidence, the Taoiseach made a speech on the decision of the European Commission. Deputy Bruton should now be given the right to reply to that statement.
I understand this matter can be discussed in extenso next week.
On a point of order, all Deputies want to assist, you, a Cheann Comhairle, in maintaining order in the House——
You hypocrite. The Deputy is one of the greatest hypocrites ever to have come in here.
(Interruptions.)
On a point of order——
I am deflected from making my point of order.
No, Deputy. The Chair is in possession — I am on my feet. The Minister made a disorderly remark and I must ask him to withdraw it.
I withdraw it.
The Minister let his new image slip for a minute.
(Interruptions.)
We are all anxious to be of assistance to you, a Cheann Comhairle, in maintaining the order and dignity of this House.
Let us see evidence of that.
Where is the evidence of that?
However, the first thing we require is consistency in all dealings with Members of this House. I still require an explanation as to why your ruling that Deputy De Rossa's statement amounted to a political charge was withdrawn at the insistence of the Taoiseach.
I am proceeding to deal with item No. 7. I will hear no further questions on the matter.