Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 30 Mar 1994

Vol. 440 No. 8

Order of Business.

The Taoiseach

It is proposed to take Nos. 8, 9, 10, 6, 12, 3 and 1. No. I shall be taken not later than 6 p.m. and the order shall resume thereafter.

It is also proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that Nos. 8, 9, 10 and 6 shall be decided without debate, and any division demanded on No. 9 shall be taken forthwith; the proceedings on the Second Stage of No. 12, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion at 6 p.m.; the proceedings on No. 1 shall be brought to a conclusion within one hour and any amendments from the Seanad not disposed of shall be decided by one Question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall in relation to amendments thereto include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for Justice; the Dáil on its rising tonight shall adjourn until Tuesday, 12 April 1994.

Private Members' Business shall be No. 16.

An Ceann Comhairle

Does the House agree that the proposal that items Nos. 8, 9, 10 and 6 be taken forthwith is satisfactory and agreed? Agreed.

Is the proposal in respect of item No. 12 satisfactory and agreed?

Proinsias De Rossa

May I ask why the legislation promised by the Minister of State at the Department of Social Welfare, Deputy Joan Burton, in Killarney last evening is not listed for today since the tax on unemployment benefit comes into effect on Wednesday next and the Minister promised in Killarney that this tax would be abolished?

An Ceann Comhairle

I will permit the Deputy to rise any relevant question but he may not challenge me in this fashion.

Proinsias De Rossa

I am not challenging you, a Cheann Comhairle, I am challenging the Minister of State, Deputy Burton.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy will please resume his seat. It is customary to allow the Chair at least to complete the Order of Business. Then I will hear any legitimate matter raised on the Order of Business proper.

Proinsias De Rossa

A Cheann Comhairle——

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy De Rossa, I insist that you resume your seat and allow me to proceed.

Proinsias De Rossa

Why are you insisting, a Cheann Comhairle?

An Ceann Comhairle

Because you are being flagrantly disorderly, Deputy and most discourteous to the Chair.

Proinsias De Rossa

I am not being discourteous, a Cheann Comhairle. I am asking a legitimate question. I will return to it.

Mr. Allen

In fairness to Deputy De Rossa, the Minister of State at the Department of Social Welfare, Deputy Burton, gave promises in Killarney and we read in the Cork Examiner this morning that taxation on short term unemployment benefit is to be abolished.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Allen, please.

Mr. Allen

I think we should get a reply. She is telling untruths again, coverups.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Allen, I am sorry we have got off to such a bad start.

Mr. Allen

Not a bad start, a Cheann Comhairle, but we have had a climbdown reported in the papers this morning. Could they tell us the truth for once?

An Ceann Comhairle

If Deputy Allen persists in interrupting me in this fashion he will have to leave the House forthwith. The Deputy used an expression that the Minister was telling untruths. I must ask that that allegation be withdrawn.

Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach (Mr. N. Treacy)

Hear, hear.

Mr. Allen

I will withdraw it provided the Minister for Finance gives us the real story on the question of taxation of——

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Allen, you will resume your seat or leave the House.

Mr. Allen

A Cheann Comhairle, you are very quick to get on my back. You always are.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy, you are being grossly disorderly. Two Members would not allow the Chair to complete the Order of Business this morning. These are disgraceful tactics.

Mr. Allen

Disgraceful tactics on the part of the Minister of State.

An Ceann Comhairle

Are the proposals for dealing with item No. 12 satisfactory and agreed? Agreed. Are the proposals for dealing with item No. 1 satisfactory and agreed? Agreed. Is it agreed that the Dáil on its rising tonight shall adjourn until Tuesday, 12 April?

Mr. J. Bruton

I propose that the Dáil should sit tomorrow to discuss the ESRI report which has condemned the Government's national development plan as inadequate and seriously flawed. This is confirming what the European Commission and this party have said.

An Ceann Comhairle

There can be no statement now, Deputy.

Mr. J. Bruton

I am asking that the House meet again to have statements from the Government responding to the ESRI report's condemnation of their inadequate national development plan.

The Taoiseach

I anticipated this because I saw Deputy Owen drawing it to the attention of Deputy Bruton as he came into the Chamber.

Mr. Barrett

Did the Taoiseach's handlers not tell him about it?

The Taoiseach

We should have ciúnas. It is important to point out to the House that the negotiations on our National Development Plan are drawing to a successful conclusion despite what some people opposite may think.

(Interruptions.)

The Taoiseach

If we continue on this route, and there is no reason to believe otherwise, we will be the second country to conclude negotiations on our National Development Plan. Agreement has been reached on practically all aspects at this stage. If Deputy Bruton cares to read that report in full he will see that for the first time this agency is projecting a serious drop in unemployment.

Mr. J. Bruton

It is quite clear from the ESRI report that it believes the money will not be put to the best use.

The Taoiseach

The Deputy should read the report.

Mr. J. Bruton

We should debate that report in the House before the decisions are taken.

An Ceann Comhairle

That matter does not arise now. It can be pursued in so many other ways.

Deputy Rabbitte rose.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should allow the Chair to proceed. In respect of the proposal that the House on its rising tonight shall adjourn until Tuesday, 12 April, the amendment proposed by Deputy John Bruton is, I regret to say, a direct negative. It will have the same effect by his opposing the proposal. I shall put the question.

Question, "That the Dáil at its rising tonight shall adjourn until Tuesday, 12 April 1994", put and declared carried.

Mr. Yates

Can the Taoiseach clarify the position in relation to the Finance Bill? Proposals were circulated indicating that the Bill would be published on 6 April but now it is to be published on 11 April. Will the Taoiseach clarify whether there will be two Finance Bills this year? It is rumoured that the tensions and differences are so great that they cannot be resolved by 11 April. It was proposed that Second Stage would be debated on 12 April, the day after publication. Will the Second Stage debate be deferred for a further week so that we can have some time to consider these proposals?

The Taoiseach

It is wishful thinking by Deputy Yates if he is talking about two Finance Bills. I know he would like if that were the case but I am sorry for his troubles. We indicated some time ago that the Bill would be published around 6 April. I indicated it would be published during the Easter recess and it will be published during the recess, on Monday, 11 April.

Miss Harney

When the Dáil resumes on 12 April, it will be four months since the peace declaration was signed. Unfortunately, during that four months the Republican movement has not accepted the declaration. All the questions on the North from Opposition parties were ruled out this week and I should like to know if the Taoiseach will agree to a debate——

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Harney, I am very sorry. The Chair is reluctant to rule out of order questions raised by the spokespersons and leaders of the various parties in Opposition but they ought to be relevant. The matter referred to by the Deputy is not relevant to the Order of Business. She will have to raise it in another fashion.

Miss Harney

A Cheann Comhairle——

An Ceann Comhairle

I am sorry Deputy Harney. You heard me, it is out of order; I will hear no more of it. It is not a laughing matter, Deputy.

Miss Harney

Will the Taoiseach meet the leaders of the Opposition to discuss the matter? Will the Government agree to provide time, when we resume, to discuss Northern Ireland?

An Ceann Comhairle

Sorry, Deputy——

Miss Harney

It is a very simple question. I would appreciate a response from the Taoiseach.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy knows full well what is in order and what is not in order.

Miss Harney

I do not have any other way of raising this matter.

An Ceann Comhairle

She will have to raise it in another way. It is not relevant to the Order of Business.

Miss Harney

Can you tell me how I can raise it?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy will be assisted in that regard if she consults my office.

Miss Harney

I submitted questions.

Proinsias De Rossa

In regard to promised legislation, I wish to ask the Taoiseach if the promise by the Minister of State at the Department of Social Welfare, Deputy Joan Burton, in Killarney last night to abolish the tax on unemployment benefit is a Government promise? The Cork Examiner this morning reports that the Minister of State announced in Killarney last night——

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy De Rossa is trying to talk down the Chair. If the proposal for amending legislation or the introduction of legislation was not made in this House it is not relevant to the Order of Business.

Proinsias De Rossa

I do not wish to cross swords with you today or any other day but you continually cross me when I am speaking. You are on your feet again.

An Ceann Comhairle

A little more respect for the Chair would be very welcome.

Proinsias De Rossa

I have as much respect for the Chair as the Chair has for me. Will the Taoiseach indicate to the House whether the Minister of State at the Department of Social Welfare, Deputy Burton, was telling the truth last night when she said she intends to abolish tax on unemployment benefit which is coming into effect next week?

An Ceann Comhairle

You will have to put down a question on the matter, Deputy.

Proinsias De Rossa

I am asking you not to rule a legitimate question out of order. Please let the Taoiseach reply. People who are unemployed from next week will pay tax. Is the Minister of State telling the truth when she said she will reverse it?

An Ceann Comhairle

The matter is not relevant.

Proinsias De Rossa

Is it in order to ask about promised legislation on the Order of Business?

An Ceann Comhairle

Yes.

Proinsias De Rossa

I have here——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should allow me to reply to him. Certainly it is in order if the promise is made in this House.

Proinsias De Rossa

So what was said last night is not a real promise. Is it the case that this is not worth the paper it is written on?

Mr. J. Bruton

I am concerned that the Taoiseach should, just now, have tried to dismiss a statement made by one of his Ministers of State as irrelevant because it was made outside the House.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is out of order, Deputy Bruton.

Mr. J. Bruton

Have we reached a point where the Taoiseach will take no responsibility?

The Taoiseach

The Deputy should not talk about his own story.

Mr. Allen

Will there be a provision in the Finance Bill to deal with the issue of taxation of short-term unemployment benefit as promised?

An Ceann Comhairle

That is a good question.

The Taoiseach

The Finance Bill will be published.

Mr. Allen

Can we have an answer?

Mr. Rabbitte

It is a legitimate question.

Mrs. Owen

Will somebody send word to the Taoiseach? Perhaps Dick will give him the answer.

An Ceann Comhairle

I suggest the Deputy table a question on the matter.

Mr. Harte

In reply to Deputy De Rossa you said that his question would only be in order if the Minister of State made this statement in the House.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is challenging the Chair.

Mr. Harte

No, I want clarification. Does this mean that the Taoiseach or any member of the Government can make a statement outside the House and it is not in order to question that statement in the House?

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Harte knows full well that the statement I made is correct. It is the usual procedure in relation to matters of this kind.

Mr. Harte

Will the Taoiseach answer my question? If the Taoiseach makes a statement outside the House, is it not in order to question him about it in the House?

An Ceann Comhairle

I do not rule on hypothetical questions.

Mr. M. McDowell

This House passed a resolution bringing into effect provìsìons in last year's Finance Bill for the taxation of social welfare benefits. We are told today in the media that a Member of the Government has decided——

An Ceann Comhairle

This is not the time to raise this matter.

Mr. M. McDowell

——that resolution is to be nullified. It is no laughing matter that we are told one thing and that the media are told something different. We are entitled to be heard and not shouted down by the Chair.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is not entitled to be heard when I am standing.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. M. McDowell

The Chair is not entitled to shout us down on a serious matter. We have respect for the Chair but we will not be shouted down continually by him. This is a serious matter and the Chair is not being fair to Opposition Deputies.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is a serious allegation which must be evident to the House and the nation. The record will prove there has been a serious abuse of the Order of Business.

Mr. M. McDowell

There has been an abuse by the Minister of State, Deputy Burton, who will not come into the House.

An Ceann Comhairle

Unless we come back to the Order of Business proper I will proceed with the business. Deputy Allen should resume his seat as I heard him earlier.

Mr. Allen

My query concerns legislation, the Finance Bill.

Mr. Cowen

Order over there.

Mr. Rabbitte

Is the Taoiseach denying that the Government will give expression in the Finance Bill to the promise made by the Minister of State, Deputy Burton, in Killarney last night?

An Ceann Comhairle

I am proceeding to the next business.

Mr. Allen

That was perfectly in order. It is promised legislation and the Taoiseach should make a statement on it. We demand that he make a statement now.

An Ceann Comhairle

There is a message from the Seanad.

Mr. M. McDowell

What kind of respect can anyone have for a Parliament when the Government runs away from issues of this kind?

Mr. Allen

On a point of order——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy may not raise a point of order when the Chair is dealing with the business of the House.

Mr. Barrett

There are other members besides Government members.