Skip to main content
Normal View

Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 30 Nov 1994

Vol. 447 No. 5

Adjournment of Dáil: Motion.

I move: "That the Dáil adjourn until 4 p.m. on Tuesday, 6 December 1994."

In my statement to the Dáil on Tuesday, 15 November 1994 I undertook to furnish a full and detailed report on the handling of the Brendan Smyth case in the office of the Attorney General. I also stated that I did not find the explanations provided to me at that time satisfactory or adequate.

When the new Attorney General, Mr. Eoghan Fitzsimons, SC, was appointed the Minister for Justice, on my behalf, instructed him to conduct a full and detailed investigation of the file in the Smyth case and to report back. That investigation has been thorough and ongoing. His full report was brought to a specially convened Government meeting this morning, and there was a preliminary discussion on it. The report will be placed in the Library of the House tomorrow.

At its meeting this morning the Government also considered an update it had received on the progress of the work of the review group on the Attorney General's office. Deputies will recall that I informed the House on 15 November last that in view of the seriousness of the issues which arose in connection with this case I had decided there should be a thorough and immediate review of the operations of the Office of the Attorney General. This review is being carried out by a high level group chaired by the Secretary, Public Service Management and Development in the Department of Finance and comprising the Secretary to the Government and the Secretary of the Department of Justice. The terms of reference of the group are to review and make recommendations on the relevant organisational structure, systems, procedure and staffing arrangements in the Office of the Attorney General.

At the Government's request, the review group provided the Government with an update on the progress of its review since its establishment on 15 November. The Government has considered this update and has taken certain decisions on it.

It is clear to the review group that there are serious shortcomings in a number of areas in the administration of the office — in the organisational structure and in operating and support systems. The Government is gravely disturbed by these interim findings and has concluded that as a first step an immediate input of appropriate senior level management expertise to the office is essential. The group has advised that its final report, due within two weeks, will include a recommendation for the appointment of a person who would fill that management role. In the light of this report and pending the appointment of such a person the Government has decided that immediate management expertise must be brought into the Attorney General's office to assist the Attorney General in running the office.

To this end it has been decided that a senior official will be seconded to the office to oversee the introduction of modern management systems and procedures and to commence the initial phase of implementation of the other recommendations which will be available to the Government within two weeks. The official seconded will be Mr. Caomhin Ó hUiginn, BL, a senior Assistant Secretary, Department of Justice, who will report directly to the Attorney General. He will be supported by appropriate administrative staff to be provided on loan to the Attorney General's office. The powers and reporting relationships of Mr. Ó hUiginn will be as follows: (1) He will oversee the introduction of modern management systems, including a programme for the development of efficient and effective systems and procedures. (2) In particular, and subject to 3 below, he will seek to identify and take action on those matters within the office now requiring immediate attention and (3) in carrying out these tasks he will work under the general direction of the Attorney General to whom he will report directly. The management post, which will be recommended in the final report of the review group, will be filled by open competition through the Top Level Appointments Committee system. As I said, the final report of the review group will be available within two weeks. I envisage that the Attorney General's report and the review group's report would be the subject of a full debate in the House. I expect that the incoming Government will provide adequate time for this debate as soon as the review group's report becomes available.

I think this is the first time in the history of the Dáil that we find ourselves in this situation — seeking another adjournment of the Dáil, not having a Government and not having a general election either. On the occasion of recent general elections, we had a three week run-in during the campaign and then we settled down to sort out what combination of parties would agree to make up a Government.

Recent experience indicates that it can take up to six weeks for that process to take place.

There are good reasons to believe that on this occasion we will be able to conclude our discussions and form a Partnership Government within a three week span. If we can continue our wide-ranging discussions in the same business-like way we have already done, and in which all parties have participated, then I would be reasonably sanguine that we could conclude our deliberations over the week-end. The House will be aware that the leader of the Labour Party, Deputy Spring, and I have exchanged position papers which set out our respective views on the basis for a new Partnership Government. I received the Labour Party document yesterday and I have included my responses in the Fianna Fáil paper. I expect that Deputy Spring and I will shortly meet again, when he has had time to read and reflect on its content. I know the public would wish to see an agreed Government back in action without wasting a single day and, on behalf of Fianna Fáil, I assure the House that we will do our utmost to expedite that process.

Upon my election as Leader of the Fianna Fáil Party, I requested my colleagues to take soundings among their constituents and within the ranks of the ordinary members of the party. They reported their findings to me in the middle of last week at the meeting of the parliamentary party and at the National Executive. Even before we became aware that we might possibly be part of a new Partnership Government we had begun to work on a draft discussion document which outlined our concerns about recent dramatic events in this House.

We are of one mind in Fianna Fáil that the examination of the operations of the Attorney General's office, initiated by the Taoiseach, and which has been undertaken by the Secretary to the Government, Mr. Frank Murray, the Secretary for the Public Service in the Department of Finance, Mr. John Hurley, and Mr. Tim Dalton, Secretary, Department of Justice, will be concluded as soon as possible and that any recommendations they make with regard to the office will be implemented without undue delay on our part if we are in Government.

I have spoken at length inside and outside this House on the issue of accountability, openness and accessibility to information by the public. I have proposed that we review the operations and implications of the Government and Secretaries Act, 1924, as well as the ramifications of Cabinet procedures and ministerial responsibility. The entire area where the needs of the public and the policies of bureaucrats interface is one of great concern to the public and while we can be proud of the vitality and robustness of all our democratic institutions we must in these times, and for this generation, question the relevance of the operational structures of those institutions and the difficulties the public has in their direct dealings with them.

Major changes must be made in those systems and I am determined that the public will get the service it deserves and wants. That is just one area we are considering in detail in our proposals.

As I already explained, there have been initial discussions between ourselves and the Labour Party in which we are endeavouring to tease out the matters and concerns that we have in common.

There are major decisions to be made in the very near future with regard to the framework document and the consolidation of the peace in Northern Ireland. Final preparations must be made for the European Council meeting in Essen which will concentrate on growth, competitiveness and employment, which are so vital to this country. Major budgetary strategies have to be put in train and key Government decisions must be taken on a whole range of issues. The management of the country's affairs must be given the precedence they demand as soon as formal agreements are reached, and I know the House will agree that there is no time to spare.

I wish to say a few words about the peace process and the work of the Forum for Peace and Reconciliation, work so ably begun and developed by the Taoiseach, Deputy Reynolds, and the former Tánaiste, Deputy Spring. One encouraging feature of our recent political uphevals has been the commitment shown by all parties in this House to the continuation of the Northern Ireland peace process. Whatever differences there may be between us, I am certain that we all appreciate the enormous value of what has been achieved in recent months in bringing an end to paramilitary violence. I sense a growing appreciation of the potential that a peaceful Ireland holds for all who live on this island. The work of the Forum for Peace and Reconciliation has a vital part to play in ensuring that this potential is realised. It is particularly encouraging that the work of the forum has gone ahead without interruption in the last three weeks, with very high levels of participation by the delegations of all the parties.

The forum's strength is that it brings together an unprecedented range of Irish political opinion from North and South. All ten parties who participate in the forum are committed to working together to resolve problems, by exclusively democratic and political means. This is a welcome advance on the reign of violence that prevailed for so long in Northern Ireland.

The aim of the forum is to examine ways in which lasting peace and reconciliation can be established by agreement among all the people of Ireland. Having attended all four meetings of the forum, I believe that it has made an encouraging beginning, which augurs well for the progress of its work in the months ahead. Although it is early days yet, the forum has agreed a wide-ranging work programme up to the end of February, which will enable it to get to grips with all the key issues. The parties are currently presenting their ideas on the nature of the problem underlying the conflict, and the principles for its resolution. Fianna Fáil has already presented its paper and participated in a useful exchange of views with other parties.

In mid-December, the forum will hold major hearings on the economic consequences of peace. As Minister for Finance, I have been acutely aware of how much potential there is for developing the economy of this island, especially as economic recovery gathers pace within the European Union, and I am glad to see the forum focusing on this as one of its early priorities.

As leader of Fianna Fáil, I hope that the spirit of realism and co-operation displayed during the early stages of the forum's work, will lead to substantial progress in removing barriers to lasting peace and reconciliation.

Recent opinion polls show quite clearly that furthering the peace process and the maintenance of a sound and growing economy are major preoccupations with the general public. There is a natural logic in these priorities. If we have managed to achieve notable growth here, against a background of violence in the North, surely we can expect to greatly enhance prosperity, North and South, in a time of peace.

Economic prospects have seldom looked brighter. The international economy is picking up apace. The world is becoming freer and more accessible for Irish business — not least through the integration and enlargement of the European Union. Policies based on social partnership are securing our competitiveness. Budgetary policies are building confidence in Ireland. Domestic investment, assisted by Community resources, is helping to enhance our infrastructure, to upgrade the skills and productivity of our workers and to break the cycle of decline in areas most affected by long term unemployment.

As the House will be aware, the recent performance of our economy puts us close to the top of the league in terms of high growth and low inflation. While most other industrialised countries experienced losses in output and employment in the recent recession, this economy continued to grow — albeit at a slower pace — and private sector employment outside agriculture continued to expand.

Recent indicators show that domestic demand is growing strongly. Already this year, retail sales volumes over the first nine months have grown by over 6 per cent year-on-year. New car sales have been particularly buoyant: registrations look to be up by about 26 per cent to end-October. For the year as whole, the volume of total consumer spending should rise by 4.5 per cent. An improvement in business confidence, combined with relatively low interest rates and increased public capital spending, is leading to a marked recovery in investment. Manufacturing output over the period to end-July is 10 per cent above last year's levels, pointing to continued, substantial expansion of exports.

Overall, GNP growth should be well above 5 per cent this year. At the same time inflation remains moderate, with consumer prices likely to be just 2.5 per cent higher this year than in 1993.

The more balanced composition of growth is leading to accelerated employment gains. The latest labour force survery figures show a net increase of 30,000 jobs in the year to April last. Thankfully, a clear pattern of decline in registered unemployment has accompanied this strong performance on jobs. For the year as a whole unemployment is likely to be 10,000 or more below last year's level. Despite this progress, unemployment remains our most serious economic and social problem. It, therefore, remains at the very top of this Government's agenda and we should take heart from recent progress and tentative figures. Our recent success demonstrates that, as world conditions improve, current policies will increasingly cut into, and further reduce, unemployment.

The overall fiscal position is satisfactory. The EBR has been well under 3 per cent of GNP each year since 1988. The substantial improvement in this respect which we secured in the second half of the 80s is being maintained. The General Government Deficit — established in the Maastricht Treaty as a primary measurement of budgetary performance — has not exceeded 2.3 per cent of GDP in the same period. Our debt burden is also falling significantly. The General Government Debt/GDP ratio was brought down from 116 per cent in 1987 to 96 per cent last year, despite the effect of the IR£ devaluation. Overall, our performance has secured the positive recognition of our fellow EU member states. Deputies will be aware of the EU judgement that only ourselves and Luxembourg currently meet the criteria for participation in the final stage of economic and monetary union.

I am fully committed to low annual deficits. I expect the Exchequer outturn to be below the budget target again this year, reflecting the importance I place on keeping the public finances under tight control. This is a crucial aspect of our ongoing solid economic performance. It is a key determinant of overseas confidence in Ireland. It is also a significant factor of Irish interest rates — which, as we all know to our benefit, are now more closely aligned with international rates than in the past.

Substantial economic growth has enabled the reduction of annual borrowing and our debt burden and major improvement in public services, without resort to a higher tax burden. More important, excluding the tax amnesty proceeds, taxes on personal incomes as a share of GNP will be a good deal lower this year than when we had an EBR of almost 10 per cent. However, because our national debt is still very high, debt service costs pre-empt a big proportion of national resources. I want to free up those resources, to enable further easing of taxes. To do that, we have to keep the annual deficit low. As recent progress demonstrates, this helps economic growth and is, therefore, a key avenue to rising employment, improving services and living standards and reducing unemployment.

We have quite rightly become accustomed to looking at our economic and social progress in a broader European context. Indeed many of our problems are shared to a greater or lesser extent by our partners in the European Union. It is appropriate that these problems are now being addressed collectively by our partners at European Union level and by my colleagues in the ECOFIN Council. Unemployment is one such problem.

As Minister for Finance, I made it a priority to keep employment at the top of the ECOFIN and the European Social Affairs agenda. As part of the follow-up to the White Paper on growth competitiveness and employment, ECOFIN Ministers at recent meetings have held a wide ranging debate on the employment situation. Following the Council's exchange of views on this issue, the Presidency has prepared, for the next meeting on 5 December, draft conclusions of the ECOFIN Council for the European Council in Essen on 9-10 December. Finance Ministers will attend the Essen Summit to participate in the European Council's deliberations on this crucial topic.

Growth prospects in Europe will be 3 per cent next year. This upturn on its own will not solve the unemployment problem, and the Council must emphasis the need for action to tackle structural problems in the labour market of member states. This message should form a central part of the conclusions to be presented by ECOFIN to the Essen Council on 9-10 December.

On Monday next the ECOFIN Council will return to the subject of employment in preparation for the European Council which takes place the following weekend. The ECOFIN will have before it a number of other important issues: adjustment of the budgetary framework in the context of enlargement of the European Union, and for provision of additional funds in connection with the Northern Ireland peace process — which will also be considered by the Essen Summit: progress reports on a number of taxation issues which have been reflected on during the past 12 months; proposals for financial aid to a number of third countries and a report on financing of Trans-European Networks (TENS).

In January 1995, Austria, Finland and Sweden will join the European Union. It is clear that the Union will be strengthened by the addition of the three new members. Now we must begin to look at the next stage which will focus on the countries of Central and Eastern Europe and the Baltic States.

At the ECOFIN in November and at the General Affairs Council of Foreign Ministers there was an exchange of views on certain financial aspects of relations with Associated Central and Eastern European countries in preparation for the Essen European Council. Following the Council, Finance Ministers from these countries and the Baltic States met their EU counterparts for discussions on how co-operation can grow. It is clear that the issues concerning further enlargement of the Union will feature prominently on the EU agenda in coming years.

I have set out today, for the benefit of the House, the matters of concern to me, and my party, and I am sure to every party in the House, and the public generally. I hope that formal discussions can now proceed and that with goodwill all round we will soon have a Government to deal with those issues at the various Council meetings next week and with the agenda that lies ahead.

I listened carefully to the Taoiseach's speech. It was a classic case of not answering the question he was asked. He did not answer why there was a seven month delay in the extradition of the paedophile priest, Fr. Brendan Smyth. Neither did he say why he and his Ministers concealed information from this House and their knowledge of it from the Labour Party. Those questions remain hanging over this debate. I also listened to the speech of the Tánaiste and aspirant to the position of Taoiseach and he did not address the origins of the current crisis.

There was some crisis when the Deputy's party was in power.

It was simply an updated edition of a single transferable speech he delivered in this House in every debate in which he participated in the past two years. It had no relevance whatever to the events that concern us now. That he believed he could get away with such a soporific address on an occasion of national importance is an indication of the way he takes this House and its proceedings for granted.

The Fine Gael Party is determined to take part in Government. We recognise the needs of potential partners in Government as well as advancing our policies and priorities as a party. It was in that spirit I engaged in discussions with the Leader of the Labour Party in the past week. Following the list of our meetings I published Fine Gael's proposals for a new Government in a wide ranging document setting out Fine Gael policies across a broad spectrum of issues. This statement of Fine Gael policy — unlike the Tánaiste's address — makes detailed proposals to deal with the two issues that caused the present crisis — the lack of accountability and the breakdown of partnership in Cabinet.

The first of those central issues is accountability. Fine Gael has proposed that Dáil committees be given extended power to compel witnesses to attend and the Attorney General should account regularly to a Dáil committee. The huge cost of the beef tribunal could have been avoided if proper answers had been given to parliamentary questions in this House. Fine Gael has proposed that the Ceann Comhairle be given a new power to require Ministers to disclose further information when their replies to this House are independently determined by him on appeal to be inadequate.

The second central issue in this political crisis is the collapse of partnership in government. Our system of Cabinet Government is designed for one party government and not for coalition. Fine Gael has proposed a formal redefinition of Cabinet procedures to take into account that coalitions are now the norm and not the exception. In this context the respective roles of the Taoiseach, the Tánaiste and the leader of any other party in a coalition should be defined in a way that will recognise the reality of coalition, the reality of partnership and the increasing rarity of single party Government.

Those two issues — accountability and partnership — formed a major part of my discussions with the Leader of the Labour Party. They remain at the heart of the current political crisis and questions about the conduct of Ministers — still in office — have yet to be answered. They were not answered in this debate by the Taoiseach or the Tánaiste and unless and until those questions are answered, suspicion will hang over a Government that includes any of those Fianna Fáil Ministers. I will identify eight key questions that those Fianna Fáil Ministers must answer.

First, which Ministers prepared and approved the speaking note for the Taoiseach for supplementary questions in the Dáil on Tuesday, 15 November, which was totally misleading because it ignored the Duggan case? If there is to be accountability, the persons involved must be named. Second, what Minister or person included the handwritten note urging the Taoiseach to repeat the same misleading information no matter how many supplementary questions he was asked? The person who wrote that note must be identified because he or she deliberately advised the concealment of relevant information from this House and is not fit to be a Minister. Third, how could the Ministers not have known that this speaking note was fundamentally misleading in view of the categoric statement in the letter of 15 November from the Attorney General, Eoghan Fitzsimons, which was in their possession?

Fourth, in view of the fact that the Fianna Fáil Ministers knew about the Duggan case since Monday, 14 November, how can they explain that they allowed the Taoiseach to say on Tuesday that "the emergence of the Smyth case did not affect the integrity of the Attorney General or his suitability for high Judicial office" and on Wednesday that, in light of information they had since Monday, the Attorney General would have had "no option but to resign" if he was still in office? That question has not been answered.

Fifth, if the Fianna Fáil Ministers were so satisfied on the previous Friday that Mr. Whelehan's explanations were sufficient to appoint him as President of the High Court, why did they on the following Sunday night — before they received the information on the Duggan case — order a thorough and immediate review of the operation of the office he had been running? Sixth, why was the Dáil not told on the Tuesday that the new Attorney General had supplied, within 36 hours of taking office, his opinion on the legal issues involved in the Smyth case while the same issue was determined by the previous Attorney General, who they appointed as President of the High Court, to be so complex as to justify a seven month delay in producing his opinion. Why did that delay occur? That question has not been answered.

I do not believe it would be proper for any Government to be put together involving the Ministers who appointed Mr. Harry Whelehan as President of the High Court until that question has been answered. The acting Taoiseach's contribution today was an attempt to answer a different question, which is not the one at the heart of this issue. Maladministration in the Attorney General's office is not the issue. It is the conduct of Ministers and the integrity of Ministers' appointees that is at the heart of this political crisis. This is a political crisis, not an administrative one. Every time there is a political crisis in this House this Government seeks to blame administrators and turn it into an administrative crisis. This is a political crisis touching on the integrity and veracity of Ministers.

The question the Labour Party must decide is whether those Ministers are fit for office. The standards that are applied must be applied universally. One cannot apply one standard to Deputy Albert Reynolds and contend that standard does not apply to Deputy Bertie Ahern because they were equally involved and, if standards or principles are universal, they should be applied universally. I remember hearing the Minister of State at the Department of Social Welfare, Deputy Burton, say that the stand of the Labour Party was one of principle. My understanding of the word "principle" is something of general application, not something that applies to one person, namely, Deputy Albert Reynolds. The principle that concealment of information from the House and their Labour Party colleagues in Government is wrong is a principle that applies to all of those who were involved in the concealment and not to one person only.

Seventh, if, as the Taoiseach claimed on Wednesday. Mr. Harry Whelehan would have to resign as Attorney General because he had inadvertently misled Ministers on the Fr. Brendan Smyth case — it should be remembered that the reason it was claimed that Mr. Whelehan would have to resign was because he had misled Ministers inadvertently — why do Fianna Fáil Ministers not apply the same principle to themselves and resign because they were involved in concealing information from this House? Why do not they also resign? Is it a case that they apply higher standards to their servants than they do to themselves? Is it a case that Attorneys General and Presidents of the High Court can be forced to resign but that Ministers do not have to resign for the same errors? What concept of accountability is involved in that? What concept of accountability will apply if the people who apply such high standards to their underlings and such low standards to themselves are rewarded by promotion to even higher office by the votes of people who resigned on principle in the first instance?

Eighth, what information was hidden by Fianna Fáil Ministers on that Wednesday morning from the Labour Party when the Labour Party agreed to go back into Government notwithstanding the delay in the Fr. Brendan Smyth case, notwithstanding the lack of accountability vis-á-vis the Tribunal of Inquiry into the Beef Processing Industry, notwithstanding the lack of answers in regard to passports for sale, notwithstanding the tax amnesty; what was the information concealed before that decision was taken?

These are critical questions the acting Taoiseach and his Fianna Fáil Ministers have to answer in a satisfactory manner and, until they do so, Fianna Fáil rhetoric about openness and accountability will be nothing but hollow and meaningless cant.

Since we last met in this House I have had the opportunity of having had a number of meetings with the Leaders of the parties in the House. These meetings have been well documented in the media. It is also appropriate to say that all of these meetings were conducted in a good atmosphere. I thank the Leaders of each of the parties for the courtesy shown to me in the course of those meetings.

Following my meetings, and as much consultation as it was possible to undertake in the time available, I decided that the exigencies of the present position demanded that, in the first instance, I should put concrete views on the formation of Government to the Leader of the Fianna Fáil Party. The document I submitted consisted of 36 points, about half of which deal with issues of accountability and transparency and constitute the details of a strategy for renewal. The remainder deal with outstanding issues in the Programme for Government, especially in respect of areas in which opportunities exist to accelerate progress and others in which some anomalies have arisen. I received a formal response to that document earlier this afternoon. As yet I have not had an opportunity to consider it in detail. As a consequence I have advised the Tánaiste, Deputy Bertie Ahern, that I will take as much time as is necessary to consider his response.

In addition, I understand that the acting Government has taken a range of decisions in relation to next year's Estimates. I will be seeking clarification from the Tánaiste as to the meaning and extent of those decisions before I can open formal negotiations. Naturally, I have conveyed the view that my party will not be bound in any way by decisions in which we have not been involved. Furthermore, such decisions obviously alter the basis on which one would be expecting to negotiate a wide variety of issues. We are as committed as any other party in this House to the prudent management of our economy but this must be done in ways which respect the rights and needs of all our people.

At this stage I do not intend to comment in regard to matters in the Attorney General's office but I am sure I will do so when the completed report is made available, I understand tomorrow. Having regard to this background I believe it is sensible to adjourn this House until Tuesday of next week. While, for my part, I will make every effort to avoid further delay, it is my view that any agreement will involve a lot of hard work on the part of many people and that the search for agreement will not be facilitated by preemptive or unilateral decisions.

I find today's debate very disturbing and rather disillusioning. After the events of the past two weeks, at least while we are endeavouring to put a Government together, I would have thought that some people would have learned lessons. It is unfortunate that today the majority of Members of this House voted down the opportunity of having an appropriate debate on the adjournment this evening. That is regrettable because the issue that brought about the fall of the outgoing Fianna Fáil-Labour Coalition Government was that of accountability, the failure of certain people to tell the truth to this House. It was because of deception, because of untruths, because of a deliberate effort on the part of the then Taoiseach and his Fianna Fáil Ministers to cover up one of the greatest scandals in Irish parliamentary history that the Labour Party withdrew from Government.

I would have thought, within the period in which we are endeavouring to show that we have learned from those mistakes, that we were indeed going to turn over a new leaf, that the Government Chief Whip would not merely have proposed today that party leaders would have five minutes to debate the issues and that nobody else would be given an opportunity to speak. In so far as the time for leaders of the parties was extended to 15 minutes I welcome it but it is inadequate. It is a pity that other Members will not be afforded an opportunity to put forward their points of view.

Having listened to the remarks of the acting Taoiseach and the Tánaiste, I am further confirmed in the view I formed earlier, which was that we will never learn. The Taoiseach said the Attorney General has prepared a report, that the Government met this morning and considered it. He did not tell us what is contained in that report and we are told that it will be placed in the Oireachtas Library tomorrow. Why could we not hear about its contents today? Could the Taoiseach give us no idea today what that report contains?

An even more depressing feature of the acting Taoiseach's contribution today was the fact that he continued to blame the system, blame the public servants, to blame a failure in the system, saying that a civil servant from the Department of Justice will be put in to oversee a new management structure. Have we learned nothing? The one thing we must learn from the Fr. Brendan Smyth case is that it was not a failure of the system. As the Taoiseach knows perfectly well, the system worked very well in the Duggan case.

The new Leader of Fianna Fáil promises openness, accessibility and accountability, yet there is no evidence of such in what occurred in this House today or in his contribution. He too was aware of the Attorney General's report today. He did not avail of the opportunity to tell us anything about it, to show any sign of openness, any sign that there will be accountability. Without being smart, I have to say that to go on to talk about car sales, the level of manufacturing output, what will happen at the ECOFIN Council, important and all as are these matters, they are in the ha'penny place when it comes to trust in Government and confidence in the people put in charge of running this country. That is the issue that caused the political turbulence and unless we resolve it we will simply have reconfirmed people's view that they are right to be cynical about politicians because they merely play games. This afternoon, and on the day the debate on the beef tribunal report began, when the Opposition sought to put questions to the Taoiseach, a majority in this House did not believe it was important.

Hear, hear.

I remember saying it was depressing after all the hype and expense of that report. Quite honestly, we have learnt no lessons. There is no point in having accountability on paper if it is not acted upon. I said in the last two weeks that the day this House elects the Government is the day it loses its clout. I have to change those words — even before we elect a new Government, we seem to have lost our collective clout to have accountability.

There seems to be an effort by some people to seek to erase from people's minds something they saw with their own eyes. The public looked at the proceedings here two weeks ago and made up their minds. If they had seen the proceedings in regard to other events they also would have made up their minds. That was the single biggest factor that caused such concern among the public, they made up their minds and did not rely on anybody else to form opinions for them. There is an attempt by Fianna Fáil Ministers to obliterate the truth. We heard them say "we have given enough". As far as I am concerned, we have not got the truth. We do not know why the file on the Fr. Smyth extradition case was hanging around the Attorney General's office for seven months, it could have been seven years: it was only seven months because he went back voluntarily to the North and we must remember that. We do not know the role of the Fianna Fáil Ministers. I asked questions last week about that and I want to ask them again, because they are very serious questions. If we are to have openness and accountability, if we are to change the way we do things, if we are to change the Official Secrets Act, everything else must change. Why do the Fianna Fáil Ministers not tell us the truth? Why, for example, on the day he was elected, did the leader of Fianna Fáil say, when asked about the Duggan case — we all heard it on the radio —"we all played our part in making sure it was not in the Taoiseach's speech"?

That is disgraceful.

I am quoting the Deputy's leader.

Let us hear Deputy Harney without interruption.

That was clarified, if the Deputy wanted to listen.

With the exception of Deputy Andrews, all the Fianna Fáil Ministers were briefed by the new Attorney General on Monday, 14 November. He told them about the Duggan case. I will now draw certain obvious conclusions from his letter and the memo prepared for answer in the Dáil. When the two are put together a series of disturbing facts come to light. Without breaking the confidentiality of my meeting with the Labour leader, which was helpful and positive and conducted in a friendly atmosphere, I raised this issue because it is so important and serious. In a letter to the Taoiseach dated 15 November the Attorney General said:

I have been asked by the Minister for Justice to prepare a reply to the following question: "Was this the first time that the section was applied?" I have done this and it is enclosed herewith. The reply is the best I can do. It does not, in fact, answer the question.

Why did the Attorney General feel it necessary to say this was the best he could do and it did not answer the question? What was he asked to do? Was he asked to draft a confusing answer? He went on to say: "In my view no serious issue of delay could possibly have been raised under the section in respect of these offences". Yet the parliamentary reply says: "The possibility existed of a case being made in respect of these offences on the basis of the section". The Attorney General says there could not be a case but the reply says the possibility was that there was a case. The Attorney General enclosed the reply with his letter. A deliberate lie is told in that reply that was to be read in this House. Why? Last week I asked in whose handwriting was the note which read "If pursued on this question, keep repeating exactly the above" which was "This is the first case giving rise to delays of this magnitude."

In a time of openness, transparency and accountability, I would have expected in the eight days since I first raised this question — others have raised it too — we would have been told which Fianna Fáil Minister's handwriting this is. Somebody who was very well aware of the facts wrote at the side "It is section 50(bbb)". The people who wrote these things knew exactly what was involved. They were afraid the Taoiseach would deviate from this reply, let the cat out of the bag, and tell us about the Duggan case.

How does the Deputy know it was a Minister?

(Interruptions.)

Why did the Attorney General feel it necessary to say in his letter: "In my view it would be absolutely incorrect to inform the Dáil that this was the first time the section was considered"? Were some people suggesting they should misinform the Dáil? If the Fianna Fáil Ministers, including the Taoiseach, were told about the Duggan case on the Monday, why was there no reference to it in the Taoiseach's speech on Tuesday? The Minister for Justice told us there was no sensible basis for deliberately seeking to conceal this information. I suggest there was. When that information became available it would be clear that the appointment of Harry Whelehan was no longer tenable. That is why the information was concealed from the Dáil. The information was also concealed from Labour Party colleagues who were still members of the Government until the early hours of Wednesday morning when I understand they were told, as if it had happened that morning, that new information had come to light. However, we know that before the Taoiseach spoke on Tuesday he was already aware of the Duggan case but we were not told about it. Why did the Taoiseach not tell us on Tuesday — Deputy Bruton raised this issue already — that, within 36 hours of going to that office, the new Attorney General was able to consider all the legal issues involved in this case and give a written report? The Taoiseach continued to put up the defence that they were complex issues which was one of the reasons for the delay, although he did not try to justify it. If the new Attorney General could give his opinion in 36 hours, was it not obvious that a delay of seven months was unreasonable?

The Taoiseach did not get that until he came out of the House and the Deputy knows it.

If the Taoiseach was correct when he told the Dáil on 16 November that the former Attorney General would have to resign as Attorney General because he misled the Government, why should those Ministers who collectively were a party to misleading the Dáil not also resign? Why did the Minister for Justice offer her resignation? Let me deviate for a moment. At 4 o'clock that afternoon I asked the Taoiseach if anyone had offered their resignation and I was told no. That was a lie because, apparently the Minister for Justice had offered her resignation.

To keep the record straight, that is not the question the Deputy asked.

I believe there was a deliberate individual and intellectual conspiracy——

I should warn Deputies that the word "lie" is a serious word to use in this House and that ought to be taken into consideration.

On a point of order, Deputy Harney is misleading the House. This is too serious to allow it to go on. We had to take enough from Deputy Bruton——

(Interruptions.)

You have no shame, the lot of you.

Deputy Harney has three minutes. Kindly allow her to use them.

I believe there was a deliberate effort by Fianna Fáil Ministers, individually and collectively, to deceive this House. There was no cockup; it was deliberate.

It was after the Taoiseach came out of the House that the Minister for Justice offered her resignation. The Deputy should not mislead the House.

The letter from the Attorney General accompanied the draft parliamentary reply. There is reference to inquiries and so on. Under the doctrine of legal privilege, because legal advice is privileged, we will not have an opportunity to question the Attorney General so I do not think we should fall for the offer of a Dáil committee to handle this. Nor, because of Cabinet confidentiality, will we be able to get the truth from Ministers. The issue that confronts the Dáil is whether we want to put people into office who can be trusted. I heard some spokespeople from the Labour Party say that unless their leader is leader of the Government, unless he is Taoiseach, there will be no question of them joining in a Fine Gael majority Coalition Government. It seems ironic that the Leader of the Labour Party is prepared to be deputy leader of a Government of people who deceived the Dáil and his party and he wants to lead a Government of people who did not deceive his party. I find that strange. There are difficult choices. There is obviously an easy choice in terms of stability and numbers for the Labour Party, that is, to go back with a majority-led Fianna Fáil Government.

That is highly questionable.

I accept the alternative is much more difficult, but the political turbulence of the events in recent weeks require us to do the difficult, not merely the easy thing. If we settle for things on paper or promises of committees or reports, I believe we will deceive the people we purport to represent. There is no point playing a blinder one week if we turn a blind eye a few weeks later. The public will not buy that and it will not be acceptable. It is time to put trust back into politics and to put people in office who will tell the whole truth, not seek to conceal or mislead.

The Deputy is misleading the House.

Is the Deputy available? Is she offering?

It is obvious what Deputy Quinn wants. I am talking about wider issues here and he should give me a chance.

The Deputy is misleading us now.

Deputy Harney, please.

We should have an honourable compromise and make Deputy Quinn Minister for Finance.

(Interruptions.)

The Ringsend Cumann is meeting tonight.

Is Deputy Harney available?

I told Deputy Quinn's leader what I thought about a four party Government and I do not have time to go into the detail of that now. The Deputy should respect that I was being honest and forthright in that regard. I will not engage in a sham and I do not want to mislead anybody.

The Deputy should be honest with the Taoiseach.

Why can we not have an answer as to whose handwriting was on the Taoiseach's note? If we put back into Government people who collectively deceived the Dáil and their Labour party colleagues we will do a great disservice to the people we represent, to accountability, openness and the truth. After that we would want to keep our mouths shut and not pretend they exist.

The Deputy is not telling the full truth.

The Taoiseach in his statement today indicated that he has now received a full report from the new Attorney General on the Smyth case and that he intends to place it in the Library tomorrow. Will he indicate why it has not been put in the Library today or circulated to Members as it is vital in understanding how the current crisis developed?

The Attorney General had that report ready at 12.45 p.m. today and the Government has given reasonable consideration to it. We will complete considering it after this debate and that is why it will be placed in the Library tomorrow morning. Also the Attorney General must be allowed the opportunity to make minor adjustments and to check references to ensure they are correct. It is a logistics problem, nothing else.

The whole thing is a question of logistics.

Regarding the reference by the Taoiseach in his opening remarks that the investigation has been thorough and ongoing and that the full report was brought to the Government meeting this morning, can it be taken that the report the Taoiseach received is the final one of the Attorney General in this matter, that the investigation is not ongoing and that the full report presented to the Taoiseach will be published?

I have already said that the full report will be placed in the Library tomorrow morning. Every extradition case since 1987 has been fully examined. I expect the report is final and that it will reveal all possible information from a full examination of every extradition file in the office of the Atorney General since 1987 when that section applied.

I appreciate the Taoiseach's answer and I hope when I finish that he will offer answers to questions I will put to him during my contribution.

The decision of the Labour Party to open discussions with Fianna Fáil, without first having had substantial negotiations with other parties on a possible alternative Government, is a serious error of judgment and a decision which I believe, both the Irish people and the Labour Party will eventually regret.

For the first time in the history of the State there is a real possibility of putting together a Government in which the Left would constitute almost 50 per cent and in which it would have an unprecedented influence. Everything is on the table. Labour has a strong claim on the most senior positions in Cabinet, including the Finance portfolio and the case Labour has been making for the election of Deputy Spring as Taoiseach would have to be seriously considered.

Instead of seizing this unique opportunity, Deputy Spring has apparently decided to defy the lessons of our history and return to the embrace of Fianna Fáil. Deputy Spring is a seasoned politician, whose achievements are justifiably admired, but I doubt if even he can breathe life back into the corpse of the Fianna Fáil-Labour Government. Even if he did, any Government which included those Fianna Fáil Ministers who were at the heart of events in this House two weeks ago would be an Administration without an ounce of political credibility.

Whatever Government is eventually elected will face major economic and social problems. We have been told time and time again that the outgoing Government was a good one, that the Programme for Government was sound and would need little or no amendment. I do not believe that the outgoing Government was a good one nor is there any evidence that the people thought it a good one.

There have been four by-elections in the lifetime of this Government and the Government parties have lost each one. Democratic Left won two of the by-elections, an unprecedented achievement. In three of the four constituencies Labour topped the poll in the 1989 general election and in each of those constituencies Labour saw its vote virtually wiped out in the by-elections. Clearly the electorate were attaching principal blame to the Labour Party for the failures of the last Government.

Deputy Kemmy said this morning on radio that the main job was to restore trust between the two parties, but the problems and the failures of this Government pre-date the Whelehan-Smyth affair. The Whelehan-Smyth affair was not a factor in the collapse of support for the Government parties in the Cork, Dublin or Mayo by-elections. It was the failure of the Government adequately to meet the day-to-day needs of the people which incurred the wrath of the electorate in all four by-elections.

How can anyone seriously suggest that the Programme for Government does not need significant renegotiation when the Government on which it was based made so little progress on unemployment, our biggest social and economic problem? Have we really reached such a situation where an unemployment rate of 15 per cent among the highest in Europe, is to be regarded as satisfactory?

A national crusade to tackle unemployment, mobilising all the institutions of the State and the economy, an all out assault on poverty and the causes of economic alienation, are, and will remain, a fundamental precondition for participation by Democratic Left in any Government. The decision of the Fianna Fáil Ministers to approve Estimates yesterday which will provide for an effective 2 per cent cut in public spending does not indicate any appreciation of or willingness to tackle the problems of poverty and unemployment. The inevitable outcome of these Estimates will be further cutbacks in essential services.

Any Government which fails to act on the concerns of the public which were evident during the four by-elections will have no future. Irrespective of who is in office issues like the inadequacy of social welfare payments, the taxation of disability and unemployment benefits, the payment of social welfare arrears to married women, and the abolition of service charges will have to be addressed.

I return to the immediate matters which led to the resignation of Deputy Reynolds as Taoiseach two weeks ago, namely the circumstances of the withholding of certain information from the Dáil when the Taoiseach replied to questions on 15 November.

Last week I drew the attention of the House to the reproduction in the Sunday Independent of 20 November of the text of a reply to a possible supplementary question which Ministers had in their possession as Deputy Reynolds answered questions on Tuesday, 15 November. The text was prepared for the Taoiseach to use had he been asked the question, “Was this the first time that the section had been applied?”, that is, section 50 of the 1987 Extradition Act relating to the lapse of time.

I have now had an opportunity to consider that draft reply in more detail, especially in the context of the letter from the new Attorney General which the Taoiseach read into the record of the Dáil on Wednesday, 16 November. Having done so, I am more convinced than ever that the withholding of information regarding the Duggan case was not due to forgetfulness or a failure to appreciate its importance, but was part of a deliberate plan involving a number of people to seriously mislead the Dáil on a matter of crucial importance.

It is now acknowledged that the Fianna Fáil Ministers were told by the new Attorney General, Mr. Eoghan Fitzsimons, of the Duggan case at a meeting on Monday, 14 November. Different explanations have been put forward as to why this information was not given to the Dáil when the Taoiseach spoke on the following day. Deputy Reynolds pleaded that he had not been provided with speaking material on the matter. Other Ministers claimed that they had not appreciated the significance of it, or that they had simply forgotten about it. None of these so-called "explanations" is consistent with the available evidence.

When he spoke here on Wednesday, 16 November the Taoiseach said as reported at column 320 of the Official Report in regard to the receipt of the letter from Mr. Fitzsimons:

When I returned to my office after the debate last night there was a letter for me from the Attorney General emphasising the importance and significance of this case ... I have the letter I received yesterday evening which arrived during the debate in the House ...

However, the opening passage of the letter from the Attorney General reads:

Dear Taoiseach,

The Minister for Justice requested me to prepare a reply to a question as follows:

"Was this the first time that the Section was applied?"

I have done this and it is enclosed herewith. The reply is the best that I can do. It does not in fact answer the question. The contents of the second paragraph is the case that is effectively made by [blank] who dealt with the case.

All the evidence suggests that the document the Attorney General enclosed was the draft reply which the Taoiseach and his ministerial colleagues had in their possession as he answered questions on that Tuesday and which was subsequently reproduced in the Sunday Independent. If the Taoiseach had in his possession on Tuesday the enclosure, then he must also have, at that time, received the accompanying letter. Yet he told the Dáil on the following day that he had not received the letter until he returned to his office after the debate.

There are two letters.

Somebody is not telling the truth.

How can the Deputy be so silly?

I have a copy of the letter and it is precisely the copy of the letter which the Taoiseach read into the record of this House.

Why were the contents of the two letters concealed?

Somebody is not telling the truth.

Where is the second letter?

The Deputy in possession should be allowed to continue.

There can be little doubt that the document referred to in the Attorney General's letter is the one subsequently reproduced in the Sunday Independent. The Attorney General's letter says that he had been asked to prepare a reply to a question as follows: “Was this the first time that the Section was applied?” The heading on the Taoiseach's document was: “Q. Was this the first time that the Section was applied?” The Attorney General's letter goes on to say:

I have done this and it is enclosed herewith. The reply is the best that I can do. It does not in fact answer the question. The contents of the second paragraph is the case that is effectively made by [blank] who dealt with the case.

This corresponds exactly to the text of the draft reply which was in the Government's possession on Tuesday, especially in regard to the second paragraph.

In his address to the Dáil on 16 November the Taoiseach said merely that "the Attorney General, in the course of an exposition on various aspects of the case, referred in my presence on Monday to the existence of a case prior to the Smyth case — the Duggan case — ... ". However the whole thrust of the Attorney General's letter suggests that the Taoiseach, the person to whom the letter was addressed, was quite familiar with the Duggan case. He does not say "you will recall that I made a passing reference to a case known as Duggan", but simply refers to "the Duggan case". The Attorney General was clearly writing to somebody he believed to be familiar with the Duggan case.

The implications of this are enormous. The matters I have referred to provide strong prima facie evidence that not only was information about the Duggan case knowingly withheld from the Dáil, but that the “explanation” offered by the Taoiseach on the following day was built on an entirely false edifice.

That is incorrect.

You will have an opportunity to answer, and I hope the Ministers at your side will also explain their role in this matter.

The Deputy should address his remarks through the Chair.

These questions cannot be allowed to remain unanswered. The House and the public are entitled to answers. I have no interest in specifically pursuing the Taoiseach. He has paid the ultimate price and done the honourable thing in resigning from office, but those Fianna Fáil members who are about to seek election as Taoiseach or to seek reappointment to the Cabinet must fully answer for their involvement in this matter.

There is an obligation on Deputy Ahern to clarify his role in this whole business. It seems that his name will be put forward as a candidate for the position of Taoiseach and it is unthinkable that the House should be asked to vote on this in the absence of replies. He is the only man who can answer the questions. He was chosen to sit beside the Taoiseach on that fateful Tuesday. He, we are told, had in his possession the draft replies to supplementaries which were expected to be put to the Taoiseach. He was given the responsibility of passing the draft replies to the Taoiseach. If his statements about acknowledging the need for greater transparency and accountability are to be accepted, he must now answer the following questions. At what time on Tuesday, 15 November, was the letter transmitted from the Attorney General's office? How was it transmitted? At what time was it received in the office of the Taoiseach and by whom? At what point did he or other Ministers become aware of the letter from the Attorney General? Will he confirm that the draft reply referred to in the Attorney General's letter is the one reproduced in the Sunday Independent? Is it based on the Attorney General's reply? If the reply to these two latter questions is “yes” how was that document in the possession of Ministers on Tuesday afternoon when the Taoiseach answered questions, when Deputy Reynolds told the Dáil that he had not received it until after the debate? Who decided to add to the draft reply the advice: “If pursued on this question, keep repeating exactly the above”?

The Tánaiste, Deputy Ahern, can answer most of these questions. There is an obligation on him to do so before he seeks election to the highest position in Government, but there is also a clear need for a wider investigation into this whole matter. This can best be done by a committee of the House, but the committee must be given legal powers regarding privilege and the compellability of witnesses. This affair will not go away until these questions are answered. Any Government involving Fianna Fáil, cobbled together while these questions remain unanswered, will be living on borrowed time from its very first day.

Nice try.

The Dáil adjourned at 6.30 p.m. until 4 p.m. on Tuesday, 6 December 1994.

Top
Share