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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 29 Jun 1995

Vol. 455 No. 3

Civil Legal Aid Bill, 1995 [Seanad]: Second Stage.

I move: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

The purpose of the Civil Legal Aid Bill, 1995 is to provide a statutory framework for the Government's scheme of civil legal aid and advice. Since the scheme was established it has helped many thousands of people to have access to justice who would otherwise not have been able to afford it. It is a scheme targeted at those whose need is greatest and while the range of cases dealt with covers most civil law matters the vast bulk of cases are family law cases. The Bill is an important social measure and it implements one of the priority commitments in the Government's programme of family law reform in the run-up to the referendum on divorce.

The Bill provides for the establishment and composition of a legal aid board, maps out its powers and duties and the criteria for granting legal aid and advice, details the types of cases which may be aided, sets out provisions regarding management of the board's finances and empowers the Minister for Equality and Law Reform to make certain orders and regulations to give full effect to the legislation.

The Bill guarantees the continuation of the civil legal aid scheme. The Government believes the statutory scheme now provided for in this Bill and the development programme that has been devised by the Legal Aid Board in consultation with my Department is the best way forward for an efficient, effective and high quality system of legal aid.

To function effectively the board needs a combination of money, staff and law centres. The board operated for far too long on meagre funding since its establishment almost 16 years ago. It was difficult to gain access to justice because numbers of law centres and staff were low and long waiting lists were an unfortunate feature in many law centres.

As Minister for Equality and Law Reform I secured funding for the board which increased from £2.7 million in 1992 to £4.97 million in 1994. The 1995 Estimates provide for £6.2 million, an increase of 25 per cent over last year's figure. As a result of this increased funding over the last two years, staff numbers have increased from 99 to 204. The number of solicitor staff has increased from 39 to 75. The number of administrative staff has increased from 60 to 129.

The number of full-time law centres has increased from 16 in 1993 to the current figure of 25. When the Wexford law centre comes on stream shortly, the number of full-time law centres will be 26 and the 1995 Estimates allow for further expansion.

The increases have facilitated a major development of the services of the Legal Aid Board. They are aimed at ensuring that individuals entitled to legal aid are provided with that legal aid within a reasonable time and that they do not have to travel long distances to obtain it. They have helped to address the problems of persons who, in the main, seek recourse to the courts for maintenance orders for themselves and their children, for barring orders to protect them from violence in the home, for child custody orders and for decrees of judicial separation. Against the background of those major developments and this Bill the legal aid scheme is now one of the flagships of the State's services to those in need.

A key feature of the board's services with which I readily agree is that it employs its own solicitors. It has resulted in a good standard of service which is uniform throughout the law centres. I take this opportunity to thank the staff and the board for delivering that service to the public.

To assist the House in its consideration of the Bill, I will explain briefly the manner in which the existing scheme of civil legal aid and advice operates. An understanding of that scheme, on which I have based the Bill, will be useful when we come to deal with the minutiae of the proposed statutory scheme.

In order to qualify for assistance under the existing administrative scheme, an applicant must satisfy two basic eligibility tests; one based on his or her means and the other on the merits of his or her case. The income eligibility limits are reviewed from time to time on the basis generally of increases in the consumer price index. The most recent increase was in 1991. I am increasing the various allowances which may be deducted from an applicant's gross income to determine his or her disposable income by an average of 13 per cent, the income threshold beyond which means related contributions are payable by 15 per cent and the income eligibility limit by 18.5 per cent. These increases will mean that more persons will be eligible for legal aid than heretofore.

Certain details in relation to the operation of the means test which may be of interest to Deputies are as follows. An applicant satisfies the means test if his or her "disposable income" and "disposable capital" are within limits specified in the scheme. "Disposable income" is the income which remains when various deductions are made from gross income —"gross income" being defined as total income received from all sources. The deductions to be made from gross income, which are referred to as allowances, include, for example, sums in respect of income tax, mortgage repayments, rent, social insurance, VHI contributions, expenses in travelling to and from work, together with various allowances in respect of the applicant's spouse and dependent children. "Capital" includes, for example, money in the applicant's bank, credit union, building society or post office accounts, or the applicant's house, property or land. The assessment of the value of such resources can seem to be a complex matter. The aim, however, is simply to assess the real value of the applicant's disposable capital. That is essentially its gross value, less, for example, the cost of realising assets or repaying outstanding loans. In the vast majority of cases applicants do not have significant capital resources, which means that, by and large, eligibility is determined by reference to income alone. I should add that while the income of a husband and wife are normally aggregated, they are treated separately when the parties are in conflict with each other or where they are living apart. As a result, in a very high proportion of matrimonial cases, women will qualify for legal services even if their husbands are financially secure.

The merits test to which I referred earlier operates on the basis that legal aid may be granted only where the applicant has, as a matter of law, reasonable grounds for taking, defending or being a party to legal proceedings and is reasonably likely to be successful in those proceedings.

As a result of the decision of the

Supreme Court in the case of M. F.-v.—Legal Aid Board and Others different considerations apply in the case of applications to the board concerning children. Due to that decision, individuals applying for legal aid in cases concerning children who are otherwise eligible, are not refused legal aid under the merits test unless the board considers that their is no reasonable likelihood that their points of view and submissions in relation to the child would be among the material which would be relied upon by a judge in determining issues concerning the child.

In considering applications for legal aid in general, it is also necessary for the Legal Aid Board to have regard to all the circumstances of the case, including the probable cost of taking or defending the proceedings, measured against the likely benefit to the applicant. In effect, the scheme aims not to put the person of limited means in the position of an individual for whom "money is no object" but, rather, to put him or her in the position of a person whose means, while not over-abundant, are sufficient to cover the cost of obtaining essential legal services.

Under the scheme, recipients of legal services are liable to pay contributions to the board. The new minimum contribution will be £4 for legal advice plus an additional £19 where the applicant needs to take or defend court proceedings. The scheme also provides for a maximum disposable income related contribution of £583. Generally speaking, therefore, the individual applicant knows from the outset the maximum cost of the board's services. In a small number of cases, the contributions originally determined may be increased — for example, where the applicant's financial circumstances improve while he or she is in receipt of legal aid or where his or her financial circumstances improve as a result of obtaining the board's services. The forthcoming increases in eligibility levels will be reflected in the amount of contribution payable by an applicant for legal aid or advice.

There are three final points concerning contributions which are worthy of mention. First, all persons depending solely on social welfare payments qualify for legal services on payment of the standard "minimum" contributions. Second, a person who is liable to pay the minimum contributions may have the payments waived in whole or in part in cases of severe hardship and, finally, contributions may in certain circumstances be paid in instalments.

Certain matters, including representation before tribunals, are excluded from the scope of the existing scheme. However, law centre solicitors can, and regularly do, provide advice to applicants in cases coming before tribunals; and if the decision of a tribunal is appealed to the courts, both legal aid and advice may be provided.

Section 2 of the Bill enables me, as Minister, by order to appoint a day to be the establishment day for the purposes of the Act. This is a standard provision in legislation of this nature. It will allow time for regulations to be made under the Act and for the board to put in place the measures necessary for its operation as a statutory body. The aim, of course, will be to bring the legislation into force as quickly as possible.

Sections 3, 4 and 5 deal with the establishment of the Legal Aid Board and charge it with the function of providing, within its resources and subject to the provisions of the Act, legal aid and advice to applicants who satisfy those provisions. The board will be endowed with legal personality thereby entitling it to be a party to legal actions and to hold legal title to property.

Section 4 continues the arrangement under which the Minister has power to appoint the Legal Aid Board, which will consist of a chairperson and 12 ordinary members. Two members of the board must be barristers and two must be solicitors. In addition, staff will be represented on the board by two of their number. I am also ensuring that the board will have an appropriate gender balance. No fewer than five members must be men and no fewer than five must be women. As at present, the term of office of board members will be five years and no member will be able to serve more than two terms.

The principal function of the board, by virtue of section 5, will be to provide legal aid and advice in civil cases to individuals who satisfy the income eligibility criteria specified in section 29 and the other requirements of the Act. The board will also be obliged to disseminate information in relation to its services to such an extent and in such a manner as it considers appropriate. Under section 6 the Minister may assign additional functions to the board which are incidental or consequential on the functions assigned to it by the legislation. The board will be entitled to delegate functions to its members or its staff.

Section 7 empowers the Minister to issue general policy directives on legal aid and advice to the board and requires it to comply with such directives. This provision is necessary in view of my overall responsibility to the Oireachtas for legal aid policy. As at present, however, the board will be independent in relation to the provision of legal aid and advice.

Section 9 deals with annual reports, and adheres to the current practice of requiring the board to present such a report to the Minister in such form as the Minister may approve. The board must make its report within nine months after the year which is covered by the report. The section also requires the Minister to lay before the Houses of the Oireachtas copies of every such report. The Minister may also request the board to supply information relating to the performance of its functions.

Section 10 provides for a chief executive officer of the board who will be a civil servant of the State and will be appointed by the Minister on the recommendation of the Civil Service Commissioners.

Sections 11, 21 and 22 deal with matters relating to the other staff of the board. Those sections were framed after lengthy discussions with five different trade unions as well as the board itself. The result of those discussions is one which I believe will satisfy all of the parties involved. The effect of the sections in question is that the board's administrative and clerical staff will be civil servants in the Civil Service of the State. The board will be in a position to recruit its own staff through the Civil Service Commission, a development which it has sought for some considerable time. The board's solicitor staff will continue, as at present, without Civil Service status. However, the Bill enables me to designate them as civil servants following consultations with them and with the consent of the Minister for Finance.

Section 13 to 17 deal with a number of technical and practical matters which arise because of the legal identity which the board will have following the enactment of the Bill. Section 14, for example, is a standard provision which transfers all property, rights and liabilities currently attaching to the non-statutory board to the new board, while section 15 serves to ensure that contracts entered into by the current non-statutory board are transferred to its statutory successor.

Sections 18, 19 and 20 deal with matters relating to funding of the board. They empower the Minister, with the consent of the Minister for Finance, to advance funds to it and require it to establish and maintain a fund to finance all its operations.

I now come to the heart of the Bill, that part which deals with the provision of legal aid and advice. While the sections in question reflect the provisions of the existing scheme to a considerable extent, there are a number of significant changes which will enhance the legal aid system.

Section 24 maps out the primary test which an applicant for legal aid must pass in order to obtain such services. It requires that legal aid or advice may not be granted unless, in the opinion of the board, a reasonably prudent person in similar circumstances who could afford to pay for the services of lawyers in private practice would do so at his or her own expense and a lawyer would be likely to advise them to do so.

Sections 25 and 26 concern legal advice, which is defined as legal assistance other than actual representation in court or any preparatory steps leading up to it. The board will, subject to section 26 (3), be precluded from providing legal advice in relation to criminal law matters because, as Deputies will be aware, such matters are dealt with under separate legislation, namely the Criminal Justice (Legal Aid) Act, 1962. That subsection addresses the situation where complainants in cases of rape, aggravated sexual assault, unlawful carnal knowledge and incest are in need of legal advice. The board will be in a position to give that advice free of charge.

Sections 27 and 28 deal with legal aid which is defined as meaning representation by a solicitor or barrister nominated by the board in civil proceedings conducted in the District, Circuit, High or Supreme Courts or any court or tribunal prescribed by the Minister by order under section 27. The definition encompasses all such assistance as would normally be given to a client by a solicitor in private practice in relation to instituting, defending or concluding court proceedings, and it applies to all civil proceedings other than those referred to in section 28 as "designated matters". The designated matters are matters presently excluded from the scheme, such as defamation and conveyancing, other than conveyancing which arises out of a matrimonial dispute. However, I have provided in section 28 (11) that the Minister may, by order, deem any of these matters as no longer being designated. The making of any such order would take into account the capacity of the board to deliver those services in addition to existing services, its resources and the Exchequer position.

The Bill also provides that applicants will be provided with legal aid where they are granted legal aid certificates.

The criteria for the granting of certificates are contained in section 28 and are on similar lines to those contained in the scheme. For reasons which I have already outlined, special provisions will apply in the case of children. It also provides that applicants in general must satisfy a "merits" test. There is provision, for example, that the applicant must, as a matter of law, have reasonable grounds for taking, defending, or being a party to proceedings, that it must be reasonable having regard to all the circumstances of the case, to provide legal services. Deputies will readily appreciate that there is little point in legally aiding a client where it is considered that, from a legal point of view, his or her case is totally lacking in merit and that legal services, no matter who may provide them, are unlikely to provide him or her with any worthwhile benefit.

In assessing whether or not a legal aid certificate should be granted, the board will continue to be required to weigh the probable cost of providing legal aid against the benefit likely to accrue to the applicant as a result of the proceedings. The board will also have discretion to refuse to grant legal aid certificates on specified grounds where, for example, the cost to the applicant of taking the proceedings without receiving legal aid would be less than the contribution payable by him or her to the board or where the applicant has failed to provide such information as is required by the board to make a decision on his or her application.

Section 29 deals with the critical matters of financial eligibility criteria and contributions. An applicant's eligibility and contribution will be assessed by reference to his or her disposable income and, where appropriate, disposal capital, in such a manner as is prescribed in regulations. As indicated, I have reviewed the income eligibility limits and increased them from 1995.

Section 30 of the Bill provides for the establishment of panels of solicitors and barristers who will be able to provide legal aid and advice to clients of the Legal Aid Board. The pilot private solicitor project which I initiated last year was generally welcomed as being instrumental in helping to reduce the backlog of cases which had existed because of under-funding and the lack of law centres and staff. Its operation has been reviewed in the light of implementation of the development programme involving the significant additional resources I have been able to provide for the board and I am at present awaiting receipt of the board's observations on the conclusions of the review group.

Section 30 (6), which is new, will enable individual law centres, through different solicitors, to assist both parties to a case. In the past, such cases have been dealt with by separate centres with the result that clients of the board have, on occasion, to travel considerable distances to meet with their solicitors. I have taken the opportunity given by the Bill to tackle that problem. It will be of benefit particularly to persons who avail of law centres in small or remote towns. They will not now have to travel long distances to other centres.

Section 31 deals with the selection or nomination of lawyers to represent clients, while section 32 in effect guarantees clients of the board the same rights as they would have should they have retained the services of solicitors in private practice. Sections 33 to 36 deal with the matter of costs. They allow orders to be made in proceedings for costs in the same way as they would in cases involving parties who are not legally aided. Section 34 points to a number of specific factors which should be taken into account by the courts in making such orders.

These are the main provisions in the Bill. They have been subjected to close scrutiny by the other House in the course of an invigorating and constructive debate and the Bill has been improved as a result. Deputies may be aware that the question of including Employment and Social Welfare Appeals Tribunals cases in the scope of the statutory scheme was the subject of a long debate in the other House. As I explained in that House, the Legal Aid Board provided legal representation in 2,411 cases in 1993 and in that same year the Employment Appeals Tribunal heard 5,710 cases. In 910 of the EAT cases the employee was legally represented. Had legal aid been available, it is estimated that the vast majority of those 910 cases would have been legally aided and the board's caseload would have increased by almost 38 per cent. The board would simply not have been able to deal with that number of cases without a major disruption of its capacity to deal with family law cases.

In the same year the Social Welfare Appeals Tribunal decided on 14,115 appeals. Once again, the overwhelming majority of individuals involved in those cases would have qualified for legal aid had it been available. Any need to provide legal representation in even a small proportion of that large number of cases would wipe out the capacity of the board to deal with family law cases. What one would have is a picture of chaos in which the board would be unable to deal with any case at all within a reasonable time, be it a family law case or a tribunal case. The combined effect of labour and social welfare cases on the board would increase by upwards of six times its existing workload. To cope with the work, funding for extra staff and premises would have to increase to up to £20 million or more compared to present funding of £6.2 million. It is no surprise, therefore, that successive Ministers with responsibility for legal aid and successive Governments have been unable to agree to the extension of legal aid to tribunal cases.

My priority at present is to ensure that we have a nationwide legal aid service which is reasonably accessible to clients and to ensure that waiting lists can be kept to an absolute minimum. The board must, as a priority, be in a position to deal effectively with family law cases. That being said, I should reiterate that legal advice on labour and social welfare law matters is available under the scheme at present and legal aid is available where court proceedings are concerned. The Bill, as it is framed at present, will allow legal aid to be extended to tribunals by ministerial order at a time when it can be said that the financial and structural arrangements are in place and when it can also be said there is public acceptance of the need for that type of expenditure, given the other demands on legal aid and on the Exchequer. The immediate inclusion of even the Employment Appeals Tribunal, however, would result in very large increases in waiting lists and divert the board's limited resources away from it primary focus.

The fact that over the years the legal content of cases before the Employment Appeals Tribunal appears to have increased is of concern. In so far as legal aid may be involved, I am reviewing the position in consultation with the Minister for Enterprise and Employment. If a structured approach can be developed it may be possible to extend legal aid to certain such cases, depending on how the current development programme of the Legal Aid Board works out and depending also on the Exchequer position.

I regard the legal aid scheme in its statutory form as part only of a general scheme or framework for persons who are in the unfortunate position of having to resolve a civil dispute. I think, Deputies will readily accept that the courts should be a last resort and that where possible every other effort should be made by persons to resolve matters by other means. In this context my approach, in so far as marriage breakdown in particular is concerned, is not to confine State funding to any one area but to channel funding into marriage counselling agencies and the family mediation services. Our separation laws encourage that approach and enable the courts to adjourn proceedings to allow parties to avail of those services. My Department has responsibilities in relation to all of these areas and the programme of legislative and administrative reform being implemented by my Department represents the commitment of the Government to the social principles of equality and of access to justice. I look forward to the comments of Deputies on the Bill.

I commend the Bill to the House.

Many Governments and Ministers have come and gone since this Bill was initially promised in the early 1980s. I welcome the Bill, which reflects the Minister's commitment to the development of the legal aid scheme, which has undergone major expansion in the past two years. The Fianna Fáil-Labour Programme for Government, which was to have run from 1993-1997, contained a specific commitment to place the scheme on a statutory footing and to extend it to cover tribunals. This legislation places the scheme on a statutory footing but it does not extend its scope to include tribunals. This development and this scheme as a whole has major implications for women, since 98 per cent of the cases dealt with are family law cases and most of the cases for civil legal aid are brought by women.

The Bill provided the Minister with a unique opportunity for a wide-ranging discussion on the role and purpose of a publicly funded legal aid service. So far as it has failed to achieve that objective the content of the Bill and the approach adopted by the Minister, in relation to the scope of the legal aid services, must be called into question. The Government has failed to meet present-day needs because the Bill, first, does not improve access to justice for people who cannot afford to provide legal aid services out of their own resources. I welcome the increases in the allowances which the Minister announced here today for qualification. I note also the increase in the contributions required from those who seek to use the service. Second, the Bill adopts a minimalist approach to the availability of legal aid services; third, it excludes class actions and test cases; fourth, it makes no provision for representation before tribunals; fifth, it does not provide for community involvement in the running of law centres; sixth, it makes no arrangement for involving services other than the services within the law centres, for example, by linking on a one-stop-shop basis mediation and legal aid services throughout the country; and, seventh, it makes no provision for the board to undertake education or research. These are issues that need to be addressed before this legislation is enacted.

We have had 15 years experience of the operation of the legal aid service. The current legal aid scheme was introduced in 1979, as an immediate response to the decision of the European Court of Human Rights in the case of Mrs. Joanna Airey. When it was introduced in 1979 it was intended that it would be a long term or fully comprehensive response to the legal aid needs here. In the light of the experience of the operation of the scheme since 1979, and bearing in mind the impact of marital breakdown and divorce, if introduced, has the Minister conducted any research into the effectiveness of the present legal aid scheme in meeting current and expected future needs? In the absence of such research, questions arise as to what is to be achieved by simply putting the present scheme on a statutory footing. A fear has been expressed by FLAC and various other groups, including the community law centre in Coolock, interested in the provision of the legal aid service, that the legislation will simply enact the provisions of the existing scheme, including its deficiencies, without sufficient debate, discussion and examination of the role and functions of a publicly funded legal aid service. I share their concerns.

There are two very different views as to the proper role and function of a civil legal aid scheme. On one view, civil legal aid primarily assists individuals to litigate their claims. It is this perspective which apparently governs the Bill. The other view sees civil legal aid as being primarily concerned with assisting disadvantaged individuals and communities and engaging in activities other than simple litigation, such as the provision of information on aspects of the law and the legal system so as to equip individuals and groups to resolve disputes without recourse to litigation; in other words, to assist in developing community-based dispute resolution skills.

Although the civil legal aid scheme covers most types of civil proceedings, in reality, to date it has been confined to dealing with family law matters. This arises from the demand placed on the board by the public for legal aid services to resolve family problems, including proceedings for barring, maintenance, custody, access, judicial separation and nullity. A small number of cases are dealt with in areas other than family law. These include contract, negligence actions and landlord-tenant matters. The scheme provides that the public will not be provided with legal services where those services are readily available outside the scheme. For example, a person who has a cause of action which has a reasonable chance of success is likely to obtain services from a practising solicitor outside the scheme on a "no foal, no fee" basis. I support this approach which is adopted in the Bill. It makes good use of the board's resources, people are not deprived of a service and the State does not have to pick up the cost of providing services in those cases.

I turn now to the question of the independence of the board. The Minister has said that the purpose of the legislation is to establish the board on a permanent basis and to copperfasten the position of the board. However, the Bill creates various problems in relation to the independence of the board. Section 3 (3) states that the board shall be "independent in the exercise of its functions". Under the provisions of section 11, staff members, including solicitors, will become civil servants in the Civil Service of the State. At present some of the existing non-legal staff of the board are civil servants. Under the provisions of the Bill all staff will become civil servants. All solicitors and law clerks of the board are employed under direct contract between themselves and the board and do not fall into the category of civil servants. Why does the Minister wish to change the status of the solicitors and bring them within the Civil Service? In a recent article in the Irish Law Times of May 1995, Siobhán Fianna in an article on human rights had this to say in relation to the position of staff members as civil servants:

Section 11 of the Bill also give rise to some concern in that it is difficult to accept that the staff members will remain independent and neutral in the exercise of their duties, given that under the Bill their status within the Board depends upon the consent of the Minister and that they are also to be designated "Civil Servants in the Civil Service of the State".

It is not that far fetched to suggest that a position of a legal aid solicitor as servant of the State will undermine his/her judgment in decisions relating to actions against his/her master, i.e. the State.

Why should individual members of the public who want to take legal actions against other members of the public, or against the State itself, have to go to civil servants to take those actions on their behalf? If, for example, a member of the public wishes to take an action against the Department of Equality and Law Reform or some other Department, how can that person rely on the independence of the board in taking an action? The person taking the action is a civil servant and a direct employee of the State against whom the action is being taken. Can the public have faith and confidence in the independence of the legal advice and legal aid services provided by that solicitor?

In case the Minister may consider that this is a concern in this jurisdiction only, this matter has been the subject of discussion in Australia. In the report of the

National Legal Aid Advisory Committee in 1993-94, the question of the independence of the Legal Aid Commission in Australia was discussed. In Australia, legal aid is provided through legal aid commissions. The independence of those commissions was emphasised in their establishment. The advisory committee stated it had discussed the independence of legal aid commissions at length and concluded the notion of their independence was initially directed towards ensuring their freedom to act against Government, whether as the initiating party or as the defence, uninhibited by Government interference. The advisory committee suggests there are two underlying principles to the independence from Government control of the commission: first, employees should not be servants of the Crown; and second, they should not be subject to Ministerial direction and control.

The employment of its own staff by a legal body established separately from Government has been accepted by jurisdictions internationally as an appropriate safeguard to ensure the independence of the service. Lawyers providing legal aid services should not only be independent in practice from Government control but should also be seen to be independent from it.

There is no suggestion that the independence of legal authorities was ever intended to be absolute. Rather, their independence is directed towards ensuring they are uninhibited by Government interference and, more particularly, by the fear of such interference. Subject to the requirement of independence of this form, legal aid authorities carry out their duties and functions in accordance with their governing legislation. The Minister might look again at the question of the perception of the independence of the board and its staff and consider it further for Committee Stage.

Section 3 (3) provides that the board shall, subject to the provision of the Act, be independent in the exercise of its functions. However, section 9, which deals with the reports of the board, provides that it shall, at the request of the Minister, supply him or her with such information on the performance of its functions as the Minister may specify. There is no provision, in accordance with normal arrangements in State or semi-State bodies, for the exclusion of day-to-day activities from the scope of the report sought by the Minister.

This would appear to be a case in which the Minister is taking the board more closely under the control of his Department. It differs from the normal position adopted by Government in established semi-State bodies. This is a dangerous, almost a sinister, provision and one which the Minister should avoid. From the examples I have given of the approaches taken elsewhere, there is every reason to examine the provision again.

Another factor is that solicitors will not have practising certificates once they become civil servants in the service of the State. To that extent, they will differ from solicitors in private practice when representing clients. Solicitors employed by the State are not required to have practising certificates because they are in effect acting for their employer, which is the State. That confirms that they are civil servants in the service of the State. However, law centre solicitors are acting for private individuals in the same way as solicitors in private practice would operate. The board's solicitors would be at a disadvantage in that they would not have a practising certificate.

Membership of the board is dealt with in section 4 and the Minister has gone a long way towards achieving equality between the sexes in his appointment of members to the current board. However, one provision which needs to be considered is that concerning the removal of a member of the board from office; section 4 (4) (e) provides that the Minister may do so at any time without showing any good cause. This will seriously compromise the independence of the board as its members will have no security of tenure and will always be dependent on the goodwill of the Minister for continuance in office. Having regard to the developments since the Bill was published on the removal of members of other State boards, the Minister should consider introducing an amendment to provide for removal for stated reasons only.

One of the difficulties with the Bill is the absence of a role in the provision of an information and education service to the public and voluntary organisations. As the Bill is drafted it appears the board can do nothing except provide legal advice and legal aid, and advertise and disseminate information about its services. The Minister made a change on Report Stage in the Seanad to allow for dissemination and advertisement of its services and that is welcome.

The question of the assignment of other functions to the board will be a matter for the Minister. It seems the role of the board will be even more limited than at present. The staff of the board provide information, give talks to various statutory groups and give advice to the public about seeking legal aid and advice. Surely this is a positive role for the board and one the Minister would encourage? However, it appears from the Bill as drafted that this will no longer be possible and the Minister should further consider this matter.

When State bodies have been established the primary function in their establishment seems to be the assignment to them of the task to be carried out and giving them power and resources necessary to do so. This Bill has an unusual provision whereby the Minister may issue such general directions as to policy in relation to legal aid and advice as he or she considers necessary. The Bill should set out the policy behind publicly-funded legal aid services, the present policy approach towards the legal aid service and the use which will be made of the policy directives at a later stage. These policy directives may be given by the Minister without being laid before the Houses of the Oireachtas, as required in relation to regulations made under section 37 of the Bill. The purpose of this section should be clarified.

The criteria for obtaining legal aid are set out in section 28, which is extremely long and complicated. Will the Minister consider putting a general policy statement on the criteria for obtaining legal aid at this point and provide the details in regulations, which are more amenable to change in the event of the board recommending the criteria should be changed?

One issue which arises is the extent to which the board provides a conveyancing service. Since the enactment of the Judicial Separation and Family Law Reform Act, 1989, the need for conveyancing to finalise family law matters has increased considerably. How is the board dealing with this matter? Is there scope for specialisation, given the high risk of negligence action in this area of legal work?

The question of tribunals was debated at some length in the Seanad. There is a clear need for legal assistance in a proportion of the cases going before some tribunals, particularly the Employment Appeals Tribunal. The Minister said he was prepared to look at this position and perhaps to review it. On Committee Stage we should discuss the matter further; I agree with much of what he said but we should cover exceptional situations and I appreciate that requires considerable thought. Nevertheless, the Minister should be able to devise some formula whereby those in need of greatest representation before such tribunals could have representation under the scheme.

The Bill offered the Minister an opportunity to provide for a new and more comprehensive legal aid service based on the experience of the Legal Aid Board over the last 15 years. The need for family law support was never greater. The expansion of the service to provide a national network of legal aid centres is particularly welcome. I congratulate both the Minister and the board for the way in which they have so quickly met this need, because there is no doubt that a national network is required.

However, the Minister's failure at this very critical time to deal imaginatively in an integrated way with the need for mediation, research, advice, education, information, community involvement, test cases and representation before tribunals means the loss of an historic opportunity. We on this side of the House will be very happy to further discuss these matters with the Minister on Committee Stage and to be as helpful as we can in further developing this important legislation.

The Minister's tightening of ministerial control over the board and its staff damages the democratic basis on which the board operates and will, inevitably, lead to the erosion of public confidence in the service. I call on the Minister to look again at that aspect of the independence of the board. I understand the Minister has been tackling very serious practical problems and has been making a great deal of headway in that regard. I congratulate him on that and applaud the work he is doing in that respect. There is a need for a national network of mediation services, as well as legal aid services. That will have to be addressed urgently, particularly in the context of the forthcoming referendum on divorce.

Apart from the practical issues the Minister must face, this is an historic opportunity to look more comprehensively at the future direction of the Civil Legal Board and to ensure it is given a clear mission. The Minister must have the necessary degree of control which can be exercised through regulations laid on the table of the House where everything is open and transparent. To incorporate the board within the Civil Service is to do the opposite. It would reduce the transparency of the board's operations and would be damaging in the long run. In the short term the Minister has a great deal of work to do. However, we should look further at the mission statement for this board, in conjunction with other bodies examining their mission statements. It should then be let get on with its important task.

The Bill will have our support in the House and I look forward to discussions on Committee Stage with the Minister.

I wish I was elsewhere on this very sad day when we must acknowledge that many of our colleagues have gone to the funeral of our dear friend and colleague, the late Senator Gordon Wilson. I would be there if we were not taking this legislation in the House today. There is an understandably melancholic air around the House.

I wholeheartedly welcome the Bill which puts the scheme of civil legal aid and advice on a statutory footing. It was long promised and has now come to fruition. We recognise that this legislation has been introduced in the context of the impending divorce referendum which we all hope will be brought to a successful conclusion. While I welcome the Bill, I regret it is limited in scope. As Dr. Woods said, an opportunity has been missed. The original purpose of the civil legal aid scheme in 1979 was to enable any person whose means were within certain limits to obtain legal services, subject to certain basic criteria of reasonableness. As the Second Commission on the Status of Women pointed out, the legal aid board said in its 1987, 1988 and 1989 reports that the reality is that many people badly in need of legal services, mainly in relation to family law matters, are being denied access to justice because of the board's inadequate resources. It also stated that the spread of law centres is totally inadequate.

The commission also pointed out that 75 per cent of the clients of law centres are women, which is hardly surprising given that so many women are engaged in home duties without rights either to the earned or social assistance incomes of their households. The long waiting lists and lack of real access to legal aid impact most severely on women. Most women who avail of the scheme do so in the area of family law. Some 95 per cent of court cases involving civil legal aid have been to do with family law — barring orders, judicial separations, access orders, maintenance orders and so on. In this context, we must commend the Minister for the undoubted improvements in the civil legal aid system.

Obviously, we are never satisfied and I have been critical of the Minister in the past. However, that is because of my impatience to assist people who do not have access to aid and were delayed for many months and years in the past. We acknowledge that situation has been substantially improved because of the resources the Minister has made available to the law centres through the Civil Legal Aid Board.

With regard to the membership of the board, I particularly welcome the provisions for gender balance and that not fewer than five members of the board should be men or women. I believe in making things happen and I support the notion that boards must be directed as to the quota of men or women who serve on boards. However, there is a missed opportunity in the Bill and there are elements of it with which I am not satisfied. I know there was long and sometimes tortuous argument in the other House on particular amendments. The Minister accepted some of the arguments made and I hope that, on foot of the arguments made on this side of the House, he will accept certain amendments.

It seems that the Minister has retained a great deal of control over the Civil Legal Aid Board. While I recognise that the Minister has responsibility for it, such a body should have greater autonomy which would allow it greater flexibility, for example, in examining cases. This would resolve some of the difficulties the Minister appears to have about representation, for example, at the Employment Appeals Tribunal, before social welfare appeals officers and in what he might describe as test cases and the development of the role of the board to note the differing views expressed on legal aid.

The Minister is aware of the views of Mr. Gerry White, which are shared by FLAC, the Coolock Community Law Centre and the Pringle committee established in 1977, that a comprehensive scheme of civil legal aid should cover all civil proceedings, that there seems to be no logical basis on which any particular case category could be excluded and that the merits of any case and the question of granting legal aid should be assessed not by reference to category but to the particular circumstances of the case.

Mr. White also maintains that the purpose in granting civil legal aid is to assist individuals — the theme of this Bill — and to assist disadvantaged individuals and communities and engage in activities other than litigation. FLAC and the Coolock Community Law Centre from whom we have received representations favour the recommendation of the Pringle committee that, in addition to providing legal advice and representation, the Legal Aid Board should also engage in any appropriate activities in the community which would be likely to enhance the status of a centre and consistent with the provisions of a comprehensive legal aid and advice service for the community. They argue that the Bill reflects the provisions of the existing civil legal aid scheme and that the scheme was not evaluated, in terms of its efficiency and effectiveness, before the Bill was drafted.

The scheme was originally introduced in reaction to the decision in the Airey case in the European Court of Human Rights and was not seen as a long term solution. We have reached the point where it is not predominantly a family law representation service. Following the introduction of divorce there will be an increased demand for this service. If we are to follow the logic of the Pringle committee we should try to meet the needs of those most in need.

The question of flexibility needs to be re-examined to allow the board to act in test cases and group actions. We need to move away from the traditional model — the individual and the lawyer — and concentrate on providing a service to those who are most vulnerable. The board should positively seek our test cases as well as group and class actions. The Bill removes the blanket exclusion in relation to test cases.

Provision must be made to allow civil legal aid to be granted in specific cases. I wish to cite a particular example. This is not the usual case in which one would expect an application to be made. It involves a dispute over an adopted child. It is a heartbreaking and difficult case for the couple concerned who are living in Cork. After completing the usual lengthy and exhaustive procedures they successfully managed to adopt the child concerned. The natural mother subsequently contested the decision to grant adoption. Happily for the adoptive couple concerned, the High Court found in their favour but the case has been appealed on technical grounds to the Supreme Court. Regardless of the merits of the case — I am not taking one side or the other — unlike the adoptive parents, the natural mother has been granted legal aid but the adoptive parents have had to mortgage their house. As they are considered to be notice parties, they do not qualify for legal aid.

This problem was adverted to in the Grey case when it was stated there should be an equality of arms in litigation of this nature. If the board had autonomy, this is the type of case it would examine and perhaps take on. It is ironic that the couple who unexpectedly found themselves involved in litigation do not qualify for legal aid. Unfortunately, they have been impoverished as a consequence.

I agree with the points that equal access to justice requires that all members of society be made aware of their legal rights and obligations. It is important that the Legal Aid Board reaches out to those who need information and need to be included. It is wrong for the Minister to curtail the role of the board on the question of education and information. While he has made a gesture in this regard the board can play a greater role. The sad fact is that many people are unaware of its existence.

On the question of law reform, the point has been well made that the Legal Aid Board could play a more pro-active and advisory role in processing legislation. As legislators, we would gain from its knowledge and experience. From time to time we tend to deal with matters in splendid isolation. It is vital to glean knowledge from those who process cases on a day to day basis. We would have a greater understanding of the difficulties which confront people in litigation if the board were allowed to play a more pro-active role.

I am pleased that there will be a gender balance on the Legal Aid Board. However, the question of community involvement should have been addressed. Those who have availed of the services of law centres and who work in organisations which are aware of the difficulties should be represented on the board as they may be able to highlight other ways by which disputes can be resolved instead of going through the courts. Unfortunately, this will not happen unless the Minister appoints such people.

The Minister could use the Environmental Protection Agency as a model. Various organisations were invited to nominate members for appointment to the board, an open and refreshing approach and it would send a good signal to those involved in the service if such an approach was adopted. There is no reference in the Bill to consultative committees.

During Committee Stage in the Seanad and again today the Minister said that the Employment Appeals Tribunal heard 5,710 cases in 1993 and that it is estimated that 99 per cent of those involved would qualify for legal aid. This view is not shared by FLAC and the Coolock Community Law Centre. They argue that not everyone who takes a case to the Employment Appeals Tribunal requires legal aid. The example they quote is that 3,480 of the 5,710 cases in 1993 came under the Minimum Notice and Terms of Employment Act and related to whether the claimant was entitled to notice of dismissal. They deduce that most of the claims would not involve complex legal argument because they relate to straightforward issues of entitlement and that a merits test applied by the local law centre would eliminate many of those cases.

These are the people working on the ground and their argument is that the principal need for legal aid at the Employment Appeals Tribunal is in the area of unfair dismissal claims, particularly those involving the transfer of undertakings, regulations or insolvency and maternity matters. In 1993 only 936 cases considered were unfair dismissals, 439 of which were represented by a barrister and-or solicitor. They say that nearly half the claimants are in a position to afford private legal services and, therefore, would not qualify on means test for legal aid. They argue that qualified lawyers are not necessarily needed at tribunals.

On foot of the long argument in the other House the Minister stated that in so far as legal aid may be involved in Employment Appeals Tribunal cases he is reviewing the position in consultation with the Minister for Enterprise and Employment and that if a structured approach can be developed it may be possible to extend legal aid to certain such cases, depending on how the current development programme of the Legal Aid Board works out, and obviously on the Exchequer position. That is reasonable, but more could be done. At least it is a response to the argument made. This is a matter I would like to tease out further on Committee Stage.

The Minister said that in 1993 social welfare appeals officers decided 14,115 appeals, but a large proportion of those would not have had an oral hearing and would have been decided on the facts. FLAC and the Coolock centre argue that representation before the Employment Appeals Tribunal and social welfare appeals officers should be considered as part of an overall legal services package and not in isolation. For example, if the educational role proposed for the board were in place, law centres could train welfare rights workers and local resource and citizen information centres to provide assistance and representation in many cases.

The board should have the confidence and ability to assess each individual application on its merits and decide whether legal aid is warranted. FLAC and the Coolock centre argue that where the case is decided on fact rather than law, referral to the local welfare rights worker would be appropriate. A full legal service approach would encourage local resource and citizen information centres to develop first year services in conjunction with a nearby law centre. That would alleviate much of the prospective workload of the law centre.

We are all familiar with the issue of equality payments to women and the difficulties that created. Cases relating to dismissal from work and social security payments are excluded from the remit of the Legal Aid Board. Many of these people are excluded from taking action and that is unfair.

Other issues, such as means tests, must be addressed. I welcome the Minister's announcement to increase the various allowances, which may be deducted from an applicant's gross income to determine disposable income, by an average of 13 per cent, the income threshold beyond which means related contributions are payable by 15 per cent and the income eligibility limit by 18.5 per cent. These increases will mean that more persons will be eligible for legal aid than heretofore. Bearing in mind that the most recent increase was in 1991, there is a very strong case to be made to re-examine the means test on an annual basis, as it done in other areas. During the course of the scheme the means test has been reviewed only three times, which is extraordinary.

One of the difficulties with the Bill is that too much power is vested in the Minister. Since the Civil Legal Aid Board is being put on a statutory basis, it should be seen to be an independent body. I agree with many of the arguments made. The board should be seen to have a degree of autonomy. The Minister cannot deny that the buck stops with him, but greater flexibility should be given to the board to ensure a more imaginative approach is adopted in terms of developing its role.

With no disrespect to my Civil Service friends — some of my best friends are civil servants — I am concerned that under the Bill solicitors and employees of the board may be civil servants. Will this result in a position such as that in the EEA? Will these people be appointed specifically to the Civil Legal Aid Board? That matter must be clarified. At present — I do not know if the Minister intends to change this position — a person from the Department of Finance may be transferred to the EEA. These may be excellent people but they may not have particular expertise in this area, and that presents a problem. Perhaps civil servants will be appointed who will feel isolated within the wider public service. Those issues need to be addressed.

There are missed opportunities in the Bill. I would have preferred a more dynamic Bill, providing greater autonomy for the board and allowing it to plan legal aid services, a board that is more independent of the Minister. I congratulate the Minister on taking the first step, he deserves credit for that. However, I would like to see less control over the board. I am not saying it should be allowed do what it wants, but the parameters within which it operates should allow for greater flexibility. All boards should be able to take initiatives. The Minister may direct policy from time to time but the board should have greater autonomy. I hope the Minister will allay my fears in this regard.

The relationship of the board with voluntary bodies should be copperfastened in the sense that people who have a day to day role in these services should be on the board. Perhaps the Minister will give a reassurance in that regard. It is put before us today in a turgid way although the provisions are tight. I do not have great hopes that the Minister will be expansive regarding this Bill but I will support it on Second Stage. I will table a number of amendments on Committee Stage and I look forward to that debate. I commend the Minister for introducing the Bill.

The Constitution guarantees a wide range of personal rights including that to due process of law. Legal aid ensures that a citizen's right can be vindicated in court regardless of means. I and, I am sure, the majority of people who sought legal aid when in a crisis, were not aware that the Legal Aid Board was not established on a statutory footing. Things have greatly improved for people who have had to seek that service, but further improvements are needed.

The Domestic Violence Bill which will be introduced shortly will place increased strain on legal aid centres. As more people realise they are entitled to representation in court regardless of means, they will be more inclined to approach legal aid centres. People usually approach those centres when in crisis on a matter of family law. The legal aid centre in the North Mall in Cork has a five month waiting list and given the figures produced by the Minister it would have been much longer if there had not been a huge increase in finance and allocation of solicitors and other staff to the legal aid system during the past two to three years. Between 1992 and 1994 the funding allocated more than doubled and it has been increased by 25 per cent during 1994 and 1995. One can only imagine the consequences if such funding and staff allocations were not given.

The forthcoming referendum on divorce has impinged on us and on practically all legislation introduced during the past few months. Divorce will not put as great a strain on the legal aid system as people imagine. If divorce is introduced the people who will seek legal aid in the main will be those who have already had contact with the legal aid system. More than likely their details will be on file as they may have sought advice on barring orders, protection orders or maintenance orders. The bulk of legal aid work involves the drudgery of gathering information and bringing cases to court is the last stage of the process.

The decision to put the legal aid system on a statutory footing is long overdue. The right to legal aid is one of the fundamental pillars of a modern justice system. As we approach the end of the 20th century, it is unacceptable that a citizen would be denied justice because of inability to pay. I welcome the provision for citizens to be assessed in their own right. Up until now many women were assessed on the basis of the income of their husband who may have been well off financially. It was difficult for women to take for instance a maintenance action against their husbands if they were assessed on his income and told they were ineligible for legal aid. I know that provision will ease the mind's of many women.

The most recent figures available on the legal aid system indicate a waiting list of five months in Cork and nine months in Dundalk. Why? I am aware from contact with the legal aid system in Cork that it provides an extremely efficient and compassionate service. We need to examine why there is such a variation in the length of waiting lists, particularly when we deal with the Domestic Violence Bill. The people seeking legal aid will not only include the wives of violent husbands but mothers or fathers who may take actions against a violent child or adult living with them. Cohabiting couples will now have similar rights. This provision will impose an additional strain on the legal aid system. If people could afford legal costs they would have sorted out their domestic problems a long time ago.

As our laws catch up with the changes in society, the burden on the legal aid system is likely to increase. Measures such as the forthcoming Domestic Violence Bill will introduce new causes of action and these cases will be taken. There is not a politician or person operating in the public arena who has not been approached by an elderly person who has a violent adult, son or daughter at home who has refused to leave. The same position applies where one partner in a cohabiting couple may have persecuted the other but refused to leave.

The introduction of divorce will place an added burden on the legal aid service similar to the burden on the social welfare system to accommodate divorce. Divorce, if introduced, will not give rise to a new group of people who will wish to avail of legal aid because their marriages have broken down, as such people will already have been in contact with the legal aid service.

Delays are not the only problem facing legal aid applicants. The service is not free. Contributions are often assessed on what seems to applicants to be an arbitrary basis. The Bill addresses that issue. Although the contribution required is small in some cases it may be beyond the means of applicants. Legal aid figures reveal that the bulk of applicants are women in crisis. We are all aware of the pattern that drives women to seek legal aid services. They may experience minor problems initially and later various punishments, one being the withdrawal of house-keeping money.

I urge the Minister to expand the network of law centres. Despite the major allocation of additional finances and staff there are major gaps in the system. He should allocate emergency funding to recruit additional solicitors to relieve the backlog in areas such as Cork, Letterkenny and Dundalk. I do not know why such backlogs exist and the problem may be short term, but a trend of long waiting lists is emerging. In the long term we need to review the remit of the legal aid system and extend its provision to cases brought before various tribunals. I agree with much of what Deputy Keogh said about tribunals. In particular, we must ensure that people who bring cases before new tribunals established under forthcoming legislation are eligible for legal aid. I will be pleased to welcome the introduction of a refugee Bill in the near future and I hope it includes provisions for applicants to avail of free legal aid. While refugees will require interpreters and full support services, the legal aid system will be vital for them. I hope they will be covered under this legislation.

I welcome the Bill which is long overdue. While it is far from perfect, any measure designed to give people who need it most greater access to the courts must be warmly welcomed.

By the very nature of their position, the people seeking to avail of the services of the board's legal representatives have more than enough to deal with in the litigation in which they are engaged — often not of their choice or making — and do not need the further hassle and stress of a legal battle within a legal battle. As legislators, we must do what we can to minimise that stress and the old maxim of justice delayed is justice denied takes on significant relevance in the context of the Bill.

I am pleased this measure will at last put the free legal aid service on a full statutory basis for the first time since its inception in 1979. We must go a step further and ensure the service caters fully for the needs of those who need it most. There are few greater rights and no greater necessity than access to the courts of law in any country and it is the duty of legislators to ensure this is not restricted in any way through elitism or lack of financial resources. The majority of people have never been to court, will never be in court and do not even know what the inside of a courthouse looks like. Their mental picture of the courts may be provided exclusively by the television coverage of, for example, the O.J. Simpson trial. However, such people would like to be assured that the courts of law would be available to them if necessary and that they would not be denied justice for want of money. While we may not be able to finance every trivial visit to court — it would be wrong to encourage trivial litigation — we must not only allow, but actively enable, all citizens to vindicate their rights according to the Constitution.

In many cases it is a lack of money that stops people taking a case to court. We must not make our halls of justice the exclusive preserve of the rich. It is my wish that the court would be a place where people would willingly resolve disputes and refer to the court willingly and confidently. This would take the self-imposed stigma away from court appearances and show that it is normal to consult with and abide by the decisions of our judges. For that reason I welcome the Bill. If it enables only one additional person to secure a right, to right a wrong or to fight an injustice, then it will have been worthwhile.

I am not without my reservations on this Bill and my greatest one relates to finance. We have passed a great deal of worthwhile legislation in this House, but much of it has proved to be ornamental in nature and deprived of teeth because of a lack of finance. Unless the finance that is necessary to implement the proposed changes is made available, this amounts to a similar exercise today.

Significantly, the majority of legal aid cases are taken by women and most of them relate to family law matters. It is reasonable to deduce that where family law matters are concerned money is in short supply. The family problems we know exist will remain unresolved without civil legal aid. At least until relatively recently, the record of the treatment of women in our society has been dismal. We should not exacerbate that now by penny pinching when free legal aid may be the last line of their defence and that of their children. The board's lack of resources was highlighted during the passage of the Bill through the Seanad and I want to re-emphasise the necessity for proper financing for its work.

If, as stated in the explanatory memorandum, there are to be no staffing implications, then additional staff will not be employed. If not, additional cases will not be taken. Whereas there were 1,418 cases of domestic violence dealt with under the scheme last year, there are recorded delays of one year or more in getting such cases to court. This is totally unacceptable and, irrespective of an embargo, the Minister must find additional money and staff to properly discharge the functions of the board.

The scope of the service must be widened and while it would be unrealistic to apply it to social welfare appeals, it must be made available to those who qualify for representation at unfair dismissal hearings. High on the list of most people's priorities is a job and if people are threatened with loosing their jobs or told that they are being dismissed, they are entitled to contest such a decision. It would be highly unrealistic and naive in the extreme to expect such people to enter their own defence as they would face very experienced legal counsel at the hearing. Even one's union official would be a poor enough defence in such circumstances. Surely the services of the board should level the playing pitch to some extent.

Decisions taken at such hearings can have a lifelong effect not only on the financial standing of individuals for the remainder of their lives and their ability to find alternative employment, but also on their self-esteem, status in the community and, ultimately, their health. We cannot play around with those important aspects of people's lives and, therefore, I ask the Minister to seriously consider extending the services of the board to this important area. A person's future can be seriously and adversely affected by a botched case, badly researched and amateurishly presented by an employee already cowed by an overbearing employer. That person may need professional help and that does not come cheap. It may be out of reach for a person just out of a job and fighting to get it back.

Section 28 deals with cases of debt collection. I note that while the chaser may have access to free legal aid, the person being pursued does not. It may be the unspeakable chasing the uneatable, but mongrel foxes did not benefit much in Fine Gael led Governments. In some cases the person defaulting on the debt can be morally more correct than the person pursuing the debt. I would not wish for anyone to have access to the scheme to pursue a spurious, yet legal, debt while the debtor was unable to defend herself or himself in court because of a lack of money. People need to be able to defend themselves against those who would exploit a lack of resources. Bills incurred or commitments entered into innocently or unknowingly or when times were better should not be a millstone around people's necks forever. Decrees should not be given uncontested and a genuine hardship verdict may be imposed in such cases.

It may be difficult for a Minister to understand that when money is scarce a type of fatalism, bordering on despair, sets in and such victims would not make the best defence lawyers in court. Such people may get proper representation only through the scheme, but the Minister appears to be denying that to them. While on the subject of money, even the £19, which is the minimum fee payable to take a case to court, represents a great deal of money for some of my constituents. If the service is to be free, let us have it free. There are too many so-called free services which are not free, such as "free" education, which was never free, and free medical treatment. If the service is to benefit those who need it most it should not be dangled tantalisingly in front of them just out of reach, it should be put firmly within their grasp.

The main requirements for qualification for the scheme could best be summed up in the various levels of destitution here. For example, I note the Minister spoke in the Seanad about including "disposal capital" in the means test. In this context disposable capital includes, in the Minister's own words, a person's house. It would be ludicrous in the extreme, and remote from reality, to suggest that the value of a person's house reflects their ability to pay for a service. Following on the kinds of redundancies we have witnessed in recent years, many people on low incomes occupy expensive houses, or at least houses in expensive areas. These are sometimes paid for through crippling mortgages or, if their owners were sufficiently lucky, they may have had them paid for before having to take such a drastic drop in income.

Is the Minister seriously suggesting that a person should sell a house to pay for legal representation? We must be realistic about this. Following on the debates on residential rates, estate duty, wealth tax, residential property tax and so on we must have realised that to own and occupy a desirable residence in some fashionable suburb does not mean unsurpassed wealth. It can often mean the exact opposite as the Minister will be aware if he attends his clinics. While the Minister may take legitimate pride in having doubled the financial resources of the Legal Aid Board, at less than £5 million those resources remain very much lower than required. A further doubling of that figure would prove the Minister's commitment to the scheme and his ability to convince his Cabinet colleagues of the justification of his case.

If divorce is introduced here — which appears to rank high in the Minister's aspirations — his Department will face an even greater demand for additional resources. Will the Minister give the House a commitment that if the constitutional prohibition on divorce is removed he will be willing and able to pay for its consequences? This is an issue which has not been thoroughly thought through. The possible explosion of costs on the passage of a divorce referendum will wreak a heavy toll on the Exchequer. I do not think the Minister has properly addressed its implications but has adopted a Micawber-type attitude in the hope that something will turn up.

On the matter of finances, I caution the Minister against the use of outside private solicitors as provided for in this Bill. Overuse of this provision could eat into the resources of the board unnecessarily since private expertise is inevitably more expensive.

Section 30 (5) warrants close examination and amendment. In the event of a member of a legal firm giving advice to a client under the scheme and such advice subsequently being found to be defective to the extent that the solicitor is deemed to have been negligent, will that solicitor be liable personally or will it be the liability of the firm? Put another way, will a solicitor have to seek personal insurance cover? Will that be a requirement of the firm or of both? That is a grey area and it would be tragic if any client, having lost a case through negligence, had to experience the further trauma of discovering that he or she was not covered by appropriate insurance. Nothing should be left to chance in so complex an area. The Minister might address these issues directly when replying.

It has been the practice for solicitors from the same centre not to take conflicting sides in a case. One side is required to draw representation from a centre in another area. In section 30 (6) the Minister appears to be dispensing with this ethical requirement which is less than wise. Conflict of interest is a popular catch-cry today, with an insistence on transparency and openness in all facets of life. This is as it should be, but if the Minister allows solicitors from the same centre to act for plaintiff and respondent, a significant step will have been taken towards diluting the heretofore immutable principle of avoiding even a hint of conflict of interest. This places the legal profession in an invidious position. I am not at all sure they would want this added responsibility.

Section 4 empowers the Minister to appoint a chairperson and a 12-member board, including staff representation. I should prefer that staff would choose their representation, to be confirmed by the Minister.

I am somewhat concerned at the provisions of section 24 dealing with general eligibility criteria, which is woolly and unclear. I would have an inherent distrust of and lack of confidence in the basis of this assessment, in respect of which the Minister had this to say in the Seanad:

...legal aid or advice may not be granted unless a reasonably prudent person, in similar circumstances, who could afford to pay for the services of lawyers in private practice would do so at their own expense, and a lawyer would be likely to advise them to do so.

While there must be some screening of applications for aid, the Minister's thinking on the matter and the provisions themselves are too full of "ifs""ands" and "maybes" to be in any way precise. While also realising that endeavouring to determine what the wealthy may do in any given circumstance is not an exact science, we must bear in mind that they are less likely to be in need of psychological reassurance of their rights, or the availability of justice, than others who have no ready access to the civil courts by cheque book.

As I read that provision I imagined Richard Harris as King Arthur in "Camelot" wondering what the simple folk might do in certain circumstances — he too was full of conjecture and could not decide. The simple folk are much more predictable and consistent than their better-heeled counterparts who have the financial independence to be erratic and remain out of court, a factor which must also be taken into the equation.

Section 31 (4) provides that, once selected and appointed, legal representation cannot be changed without the consent of the board. This appears to be too restrictive and could lead to a type of conflict of interest. For example, a solicitor could recommend that a person should not be granted legal aid, which recommendation might be subsequently overturned by the board. If the refusing solicitor was then appointed to the case, would he or she not have a difficult task convincing their client that they would fight to the legal death for the case? Worse still, the client would have little right to object to that solicitor handling the case or to request another. Conversely, a solicitor will have no difficulty in offloading a case, for whatever reason, to another solicitor without ever consulting the client. This appears to be weighted very much in favour of the legal profession. I am not sure that is good either from the point of view of public perception or the good of the client for whom the system was devised.

While welcoming this Bill, it is in need of radical amendment to render its operation effective.

Our thoughts today are with the family of the late Senator Gordon Wilson. Senator Wilson had accepted an invitation to speak in my constituency this evening which was typical of his generosity and the manner in which he constantly expended his energies in the interests of the peace process. I should like to avail of this opportunity to offer my sympathy to his family.

I congratulate the Minister on introducing this long overdue Bill, from whose provisions many individuals will benefit. I am strongly of the opinion that one's last resort should be to the courts. While this Bill is an endeavour to provide for the first time, a comprehensive package of civil legal aid, it is equally important that we provide a comprehensive counselling and mediation service for individuals, couples and families. Many families could avoid resorting to the courts if an adequate counselling and mediation service were easily accessible to them, which point was made by the Minister himself.

It is ironic that so much legislation is being introduced prior to the holding of a referendum on divorce later this year. While congratulating the Minister on his legislative record, much of it has been long overdue. Had we really wanted to support individuals and families this Bill should have been enacted before there was any mention of a referendum on divorce.

While this is a good Bill, the matter of furnishing people generally with greater information on what is available to them by way of legal aid services needs to be tackled urgently. The AIM Group for Family Law Reform has spent years disseminating information to couples and individuals, in particular women, who need advice. We must remember that all individuals experiencing family problems or marital conflict perceive their problem as unique and feel very isolated. Gaining access, whether to counselling, mediation or legal aid often can be quite difficult. There is need to ensure that the type of work undertaken by the National Social Service Board nationwide is well advertised and legal aid centres well equipped to furnish such information.

Perhaps the Minister would comment on the interesting point raised by Deputy Keogh about members of the service being civil servants. I know from experience that difficulties arose in the Employment Equality Agency in relation to career progression and maintaining expertise in the centre. I ask the Minister to comment on that and to consider implementing special measures to ensure this does not become a problem under the provisions of the Bill because it is an important issue.

I welcome the gender balance on the Legal Aid Board. This is the second time gender balance has been built into legislation — the first occasion involved legislation covering the RTE Authority. It is important we move in this direction because for far too long we have had nothing but lip service about offering women decision-making positions.

We must ensure that legal aid continues to be available on a comprehensive basis. While welcoming the improvements initiated by the Minister in a short period, I urge him to develop the network of services available so that legal aid is widely accessible throughout the country. The proposed Domestic Violence Bill will result in additional demands being placed on the service. There is no doubt that the present demand on the service is extremely high. That was evident from the debate in the Seanad on the other services which might be covered by this Bill but which clearly cannot be funded at present. However, we, as legislators, must examine that question in the future.

I welcome the Bill. In the context of the divorce referendum there must be as much focus on counselling and mediation as there has been on the development of the legal aid service. We must ensure people are aware that the service is available because that is an equally critical aspect of the legislation.

I would like to thank all Deputies who contributed to the debate in such a constructive manner. Most of the matters raised will be appropriate to Committee Stage during which we can discuss the Bill section by section. I propose to deal now with some of the key points raised by a number of Deputies.

I wish to clarify some points for Deputy Kenneally and assure him that the term "disposable capital" does not include the family home. The family home is specifically excluded from that designation. The Deputy expressed concern also that there should not be overuse of the private practitioners' scheme and I subscribe to that. It was never intended by me to be a substitute for a part of the key operations of the legal aid service. Its role will be no more than a supplement to the work of the Legal Aid Board. Although we now have at least one law centre in every county — some counties have more than one — certain areas are quite a distance from the location of the particular law centre. In the case of people living some distance from a law centre, access to a private practitioner on a more convenient basis would be important.

On the question of staff representation on the board, I accept the point made by Deputy Kenneally. I have asked the staff unions to make their own nominations to the board.

Many Deputies, including Deputies Woods and Keogh, raised the question of the independence of the board and the need for it to be more autonomous and independent. The board has a large measure of independence and autonomy under the terms of the Bill. It retains control of the staff and the responsibility for making decisions on legal aid that arise in each individual case. The Minister does not have any role in that respect. I would remind Deputies, however, that the Legal Aid Board operates exclusively on funds voted by the Oireachtas. Somebody must be answerable to the Members of this House and to the Committee of Public Accounts for the expenditure of those moneys. It is essential, therefore, that those public funds are retained overall under the control of the people who vote them through both Houses of the Oireachtas. For that reason it is essential that that level of monetary control be exercised by the Minister who is answerable to the House on how those moneys are expended. That is not to say that the responsibility for granting legal aid in individual cases is a matter exclusively for the Legal Aid Board and its staff.

Deputy Woods was concerned about the implications of the provisions of section 11 for the independence of the board's solicitors. The Bill does not necessarily require that the board's solicitors be civil servants, but under its terms they could be designated as civil servants at some future time. That step would only be taken with the consent of the solicitors' unions. Neither individual solicitors nor the solicitors' unions have any apprehensions regarding the dilution of their independence were that status to be negotiated with them. Regardless of what their status might be, they would continue to be employees of the board and, consequently, they would be answerable to the board for their actions and not to the Minister.

Deputies Helen Keogh and Frances Fitzgerald raised the question of whether the board's solicitors could be moved around within the Civil Service. Obviously, if the solicitors were designated as civil servants, they would have opportunities for advancement within the Civil Service. That would be good for their morale and would be reflected in their enthusiasm for their work. It would be appropriate that they have those opportunities for advancement.

Many important issues have been raised and I look forward to discussing them with Deputies on all sides of the House on Committee Stage. I thank the Deputies for their support of the Bill.

Question put and agreed to.
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