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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 5 Dec 1995

Vol. 459 No. 3

Bovine Diseases (Levies) (Amendment) Bill, 1995: Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time".

When I spoke on the Bill previously I outlined how tuberculosis had been brought under medical control, how people were protected from it and how it had been eradicated in humans. However, having spent £1 billion or more we have not eradicated it completely in animals, although 99 per cent of our herds are free from it. The time has come for a critical analysis with a view to arriving at a conclusive decision.

The Department of Agriculture, Food and Forestry has great experience in veterinary science and administration. It has had the advice and support of Teagasc, the veterinary organisations, the science departments in universities and the European Union. It has collaborated also with experts in the United Kingdom. What progress has been made in the implementation of a standard blood test to prove conclusively that bovine TB is present?

Obviously problems arise because three vaccines are being used; while each vaccine is up to the required veterinary science standard, animals, like humans, can react differently to different vaccines. Consequently, if we are not able to introduce the blood test very soon, we must introduce a standardised vaccine.

For the past 14 years I have served as a public representative but prior to that I worked for 14 years with Galway, Mayo and Clare marts. When representing constituents my colleagues and I are extremely frustrated at the Department's attitude. The tests on animals may prove inconclusive or there may be a doubt about the animal's reaction but herd owners are then told they will not get another test until the animal has been removed from the herd. I have intervened but failed to get the Department of Agriculture, Food and Forestry to agree to another test. I spent until 1 a.m. in the morning negotiating on behalf of a constituent with the Department, but it would not accede to the farmer's request. The farmer did not concede but eventually got a test after a 15 months' delay and no reactor was found in his herd. Subsequently the farmer took a case against the Department of Agriculture, Food and Forestry and the Department took a counter case but, before the case went to court, the Department capitulated and withdrew its case. Its credibility as well as mine was thrown out the window. That is no way to treat a public representative or the person who owns the animal but it is part of the bureaucracy of State agencies, and local authorities.

The discretion to take legal cases rests with the permanent bureaucracy which takes no cognisance of the service to be delivered to the public. Another farmer who had reactors in his herd was ordered to depopulate it. His forward store animals were taken to the former Hal A1 factory in Ballyhaunis where they were slaughtered but he was paid for weanlings. He disputed the weights, the dispute is ongoing, but the Department has not made available the de facto information and documentation that is necessary for that farmer to be satisfied that he was treated equitably. Hal A1 has gone out of business and the Department of Agriculture, Food and Forestry is washing its hands of it but it expects this small farmer who lives in the southern end of my constituency to try to survive on his small fragmented farm and bear this major loss. That farmer is now in severe financial difficulty and the Department has not made him a satisfactory offer.

If we are to progress we must have conclusive proof that the badger is to blame as on many occasions the Department has been very slow to accept the evidence of research in this area. Decisions have been taken, badgers eliminated and TB eradicated in those areas without scientific evidence to provide conclusively that badgers are the culprits. The information held by the Department on behalf of farmers in such areas is not made available to them which is unfair and discriminatory. Any information pertaining to a farmer or his lands, whether of an administrative, scientific or other nature should be made available to him on request. The Department's failure to do so demonstrates that it is not operating an open book policy or delivering a fair and equitable service to all our farmers.

We purchase approximately three million cattle eartags annually costing on average £400,000 — a large industry. I made representations to the Department on behalf of a small, indigenous company that contended it could do a better job on the provision of eartags than an international company that had been supplying them. The small company spent up to £50,000 on research and development, on various trials nationwide, and had the full support of other Government Departments and State agencies like Teagasc, who carried out trials on their behalf and was in constant direct consultation with the Department. At no stage did the company or I consider it would not be in the running for the tender for such eartags. However, the existing international company that had been supplying them tendered and was granted the contract for their supply. The indigenous company and I were informed that the European Union was considering introducing electronic tagging of cattle in future. We were told also that in future pigs and sheep would be tagged by farmers; in other words, the Department would not be involved.

That small, indigenous company could not afford to expend £50,000 on research into a product not knowing the exact parameters within which it had to operate. If it had known electronic tagging was being proposed, it would probably not have expended that amount engaging in research. Although its tender was commensurate with top British and Irish production standards for the supply of the requisite eartags, it was treated very shabbily. In addition, the funds it expended on the requisite research and development must have been of benefit to the Department which, in turn, proposed major improvements in the existing eartagging scheme. The Department has that documentation on file, yet the company concerned received no recompense for its research and development in tendering to compete with the major international company already holding a monopoly within the European Union market.

The Department of Agriculture operates on the basis of having a specific function to perform and not on the basis of the totality of a national contribution in collaboration with other State agencies and Departments. This is in marked contrast to the policy of some semi-State agencies, such as the ESB and others who obtain valuable contracts for this country in international markets who then identify indigenous companies that can supply goods and services to those foreign markets as subcontractors. The same attitude should prevail within Government Departments irrespective of whether they have a brief in any given circumstance. When an opportunity presents itself, is should be recognised for what it is, ensuring our innovative suppliers can supply almost all the goods and services we require.

I was extremely disappointed at the attitude of the Department of Agriculture in not alerting that company to the fact the EU proposed a change in the method of tagging, in addition to its continued use of the services of the monopolistic international company that had been supplying such eartags. I hope this will be thoroughly examined by the Minister and that he will ensure transparency in future, any changes proposed being notified to farmers and others well in advance and any companies tendering for such products receiving adequate prior notice. There is no point in fulfilling European Union directives in the spirit unless they are also interpreted in domestic and international law.

As a member state of the European Union, Ireland has a right to veto decisions on subsidiarity, which should be exercised on some occasions even if it means risking the wrath occasioned by future decisions that may be taken by the European Commission or courts, thus fulfilling our role as positive members.

After so many years of endeavours by the Department of Agriculture to eliminate TB, we should be able to reduce its incidence to 0.01 per cent of our national herd. In addition, the Department must reach a conclusive decision on research and on the future criteria to be applied so that farmers, veterinary surgeons, consumers and international markets, will be fully aware that our standards are of the highest calibre and that our farmers and domestic and international consumers are made fully aware that our livestock, when slaughtered, is commensurate with the best to be found anywhere else worldwide.

Unlike many other Members, my perspective of the eradication of bovine tuberculosis is somewhat different since, over the past 20 years or so, I have been associated with the veterinary profession and in the education of its practitioners. No doubt most other Members view the operations of the scheme from the farmers' viewpoint.

The eradication of bovine tuberculosis has proved exceptionally difficult. I was interested to hear Deputy Treacy contrast the eradication of bovine tuberculosis with its incidence among humans. Perhaps it is worth making the point that its incidence has not been eliminated in humans and although, fortunately, it is still quite small in developed countries such as ours, it has increased marginally in recent years and remains a very difficult problem in some developing countries worldwide.

When talking about the incidence of bovine tuberculosis, we must bear in mind the many other problems in life which are very difficult, if not almost impossible to resolve. In that respect it was noteworthy that Deputy Treacy referred to a target incidence of 0.01 per cent, probably as high an attainable target as is possible within economic constraints. As all such objectives have an economic cost it leads one to question how much people are prepared to expend on attaining any such goal and whether such effort is warranted

The eradication scheme has been a source of controversy over very many years. It is good to note the Minister is taking an initiative designed to improve the position overall although, to some extent, constituting a step into the unknown, as it is impossible to predict with any degree of certainty whether it will be successful in Irish conditions; the reality is it has not been tried in Irish conditions. The Minister has advanced many convincing, theoretical reasons for its being operable but, ultimately it is like any other experiment; we do not know its outcome in advance.

Nonetheless it is important to approach the scheme in a positive frame of mind since it marks a fairly fundamental difference of approach — henceforth the farmer being responsible for the health of the herd. Much of that responsibility was vested formerly in the veterinary surgeons working with the farmers.

The ball is now very much in the farmer's court and it will be up to them to take a series of initiatives which were not possible in the past. This new scheme has much to recommend it in theory, but we will have to wait to see if it will work in practice.

Regarding the practicalities of the scheme, I am glad to learn that meetings have been arranged for later this week between the Minister for the relevant officials in the Department and the veterinary practitioners to try to iron out the remaining difficulties. It will be necessary to establish clear guidelines on how farmers will engage veterinary surgeons and organise the workload in a way that is acceptable to farmers and is also compatible with the capacity of veterinary practitioners to test animals. Quite a bit of work, mostly administrative and organisational, remains to be done, but I have no doubt that with goodwill on both sides a system can be worked out.

What is happening now marks a fairly fundamental change which will present its own administrative challenges and difficulties. The aim of the scheme is to better tackle the disease by reference to market forces. I am not too sure that in the case of the disease this will bring the desired results, but my attitude is that it should be given every chance.

The scheme itself has been in operation since the 1950s. Huge amounts of money have been spent but there is dissatisfaction at the incidence of bovine tuberculosis here. It is very difficult to eliminate bovine tuberculosis in a country such as Ireland, and there are a number of reasons the incidence is so high. The levels of reporting are quite high and comparable to the best international standards. That may be one reason the figures here do not compare favourably with those in other countries where there is not so well developed a system of reporting the incidence of disease.

Another aspect relates to the very high level of tuberculosis which exists in wildlife, particularly in badgers — about 15 per cent of the badger population suffers from tuberculosis and some of that can be transferred to the bovine population, yet the rate of tuberculosis in the bovine population is 0.3 per cent. I would not suggest for a moment that badgers should be eliminated as a means of dealing with this problem. What is needed is to eliminate tuberculosis from badgers rather than to eliminate badgers. The fact that there is such a high incidence of tuberculosis in badgers creates its own problem among badgers and among wildlife generally. I understand some progress is possible with the development of vaccine which it may be possible to get badgers and other wildlife to consume and in that way reduce the incidence of tuberculosis in the wildlife population. The extent of the difficulty can be seen from the fact that in some areas the incidence of tuberculosis in wildlife is more than one hundred times as great as it is in the bovine population.

It is also interesting that the incidence of the disease, while it is unacceptably high here and has given rise to enormous costs, is not that dissimilar to the levels in other parts of the world. In parts of the United Kingdom, particularly parts of Somerset, which are similar from the point of view of climate, wildlife and environment generally, the incidence of tuberculosis in the bovine population compares to the levels existing here, as does the incidence in parts of New Zealand. That is something we should keep in mind in formulating objectives to further reduce the disease. It must be remembered that some diseases are impossible to eliminate without incurring enormous cost.

The scheme has been controversial in a number of ways over the years. There is no doubt that there has been a significant amount of malpractice. Economic pressures have encouraged some farmers to take short-cuts in handling the disease. It cannot be denied that farmers changed tags on animals — I recollect court cases where people were convicted of this. The length of time over which the test has to be carried out has resulted in economic pressures on farmers. That in turn led to demands for changes in the terms of the scheme. In some cases what we have seen is a conflict between economics and what would be ideal practice. To be realistic we have to strike a balance between what is desirable in an ideal world and what is feasible and tolerable from an economic point of view.

Some speakers criticised the bureaucracy of the administration of the scheme. I have no doubt that it could have been better administered, but we live in an imperfect world and one has to learn as one progresses and hope that past difficulties can be eliminated.

Much of the difficulty in dealing with this disease centres around the inadequacy of existing technologies. The present test is quite imperfect. It gives rise to false positives and false negatives. Some of the animals who suffer from TB do not test positive when subjected to the tuberculin test while some test positive when they are not infected with the disease. That also creates difficulties. The elimination of the disease would be greatly facilitated by the development of a blood test similar to that for brucella. The failure was in not putting enough investment into research to develop such a test which would have eliminated many of the problems that have existed.

The second problem relates to the way Irish agriculture operates. Most Irish cattle spend part of their lives on a series of farms. The average Irish bovine is held on as many as six to ten farms in its lifetime. There are few better ways of spreading infection than by sending animals on a tour of farms so that they can pick up infection, leave a residue of infection behind them and transfer it to other farms. That is how Irish agriculture is organised, but it undoubtedly facilitates the transfer of disease and its proliferation. It is difficult to handle but it merits more attention than it has been given. The practice of buying infected animals has also been a source of proliferating this disease. It is highly desirable that before animals are purchased by farmers they are tested to find out whether they are suffering from disease.

I read the reply to a question tabled by one of our colleagues on the number of farmers, on a county by county basis, who organised for these tests to be carried out privately. The numbers were very small and in the region of about ten farmers per county. If that is the practice and people are prepared to go to marts and buy animals, there is an element of risk. For commerical reasons, some of that is unavoidable but much more progress could have been made to curb the extent to which people buy infected animals and to which animals are transferred from place to place. It is an ideal way of spreading infection and merits much more attention than it has been given.

Undoubtedly, the way forward not only involves initiative and a new approach to current technology but also depends on developing new technology. Quite an amount of research has been conducted here in the last five to ten years but virtually nothing was done prior to that. When one thinks of the enormous sums spent on the scheme, it is appalling that virtually no research, quality control or development of new ideas and technology was undertaken to address the problem. It is a great pity that much more effort was not made in the area.

Matters have improved in recent years but we have lessons to learn from what happened. There is scope for considerable progress but while farming practice regarding the transfer of animals from farm to farm remains unchanged it will be hard to make progress. We will also have huge difficulties while the technology for testing animals remains as it is.

I thank Deputy Upton for a fine contribution on this topic. I welcome any proposal to reduce levies paid by farmers and the incidence of animal disease which is a major scourge. I am happy that the Minister is more involved in consultation because his earlier disposition was towards confrontation. There has been particularly bad feeling between the veterinary union and the Minister on this topic.

Like other speakers I often wondered why a vaccine could not be made available to eradicate TB in animals as it has in people. Deputy Upton pointed out that TB has not been totally eradicated in humans but is at a very low incidence. Why do we not spend more money on researching a vaccine? Major scientific research is being conducted in New Zealand but they may still be five or six years away from finding a vaccine. The result of proposals for research on the eradication of TB is that the Minister has established a committee. This is not enough. We must have research action. It is of major concern to me and my party that the Minister did not address this in his remarks.

Administration costs are increasing. The Department's administration now accounts for one third of the cost of the scheme. It is ironic that while we reduce farm levies, we see spiralling costs in the Department. I hope the Minister will give us more details as to where these costs arise. We have had many rows about public relations and increased administration costs in the Department of Agriculture, Food and Forestry and we do not get any answers.

The Minister said some time ago that if we did not get rotation with testing, EU funds would not be available. This is absolute nonsense. There is money available but the Minister is not giving us detailed costing. What is the position on the savings to farmers? The Minister promised to reduce the farm levies, which is welcome, but this does not include the £14 million farmers will now pay to vets. Is the Minister giving us the full information or is he underestimating the cost to farmers? If these calculations are correct, the net saving to farmers is only £4 million. These figures could be undermined by lack of competition in rural areas because of a shortage of vets. No calculation has been made on this matter.

This privatisation scheme will hit small producers. We all know what happens when privatisation occurs in rural areas. The most obvious example is the refuse service. It is always difficult to get contractors to operate in sparsely populated areas and unfortunately the same situation pertains when one attempts to get veterinary surgeons to operate in rural areas. The vets are calling this privatisation, and I have no problem with that. I am sure the Fine Gael Party has no problem with it but I do not now know if the Labour Party and Democratic Left are totally happy with it. We may have to introduce a compensation package or incentives to encourage vets to operate in remote rural areas.

Privatisation and competition can result in great efficiency. Last week's Farmers Journal contained two letters to the editor from veterinary surgeons in the west of Ireland. They both mentioned that this privatisation could have serious effects on smaller producers. One veterinary surgeon in Boyle said that if the scheme is privatised it will leave worse off the small and medium sized producers, who account for 90 per cent of farmers in the Roscommon area. He said that as well as paying for the annual tests they will continue to pay for a pre-movement export test. He asks why they are not represented and makes the point that perhaps many of them are not members of the farming organisations. He also says these farmers who will have to pay proportionately more will be affected and that the Minister is operating contrary to EU policy by penalising them.

The second veterinary surgeon, from County Galway, said he will do quite well because he will not have to wait two months to be paid as happens now and will not have to pay the 25 per cent withholding tax which is currently deducted from his income at source. He makes the point that privatisation would suit him. Perhaps he will fall into the category of vets who will do nothing but TB testing and it would be disappointing if that were to happen in rural areas.

He makes the point that if a veterinary surgeon has a good name for eradicating TB farmers will avail of his services and this could in fact lead to the spread of TB. I do not say I agree with his view but it is an interesting comment on the scheme by a member of the Veterinary Union.

We must ensure the small producer will benefit. All farmers will contribute towards the cost of the measures but the small producer will pay proportionately more.

The Department is in consultation with the veterinary surgeons and that is welcome. There was a phoney war between them and I am glad that is over. The bovine disease eradication scheme has been in existence for 41 years and millions of pounds have been spent on it. Many experts argue that we are in the same position as 20 years ago but hopefully we will make progress now.

The issue of badgers spreading TB is a contentious one. Insufficient funding has been provided for research in this area. The Minister said badger sets will be removed if necessary. The Department is slow to give up to date information on the matter. The Government intends to bring in a freedom of information Bill and the sooner it does so the better as it will enable us to find out what is happening in the various Departments.

While the veterinary profession has an important role to play in TB eradication there is room for lay technicians under the scheme. The matter caused industrial relations problems previously but perhaps such work could be carried out under the supervision of a veterinary surgeon. EU funding will be provided irrespective of rotation testing and we must involve lay people if necessary.

TB is not as prevalent in Northern Ireland and the reason may lie in what has been said about the movement of cattle. There is also a very good computerisation and identification system in the North. We should implement that here as soon as possible. It would be of great benefit not only in this area but as regards grant payments and so on. There is an excellent service in the Department of Social Welfare but that is not the case in the Department of Agriculture, Food and Forestry.

I am concerned that veterinary surgeons may only do TB testing and may not be available to provide other services required by a farmer. That would be a serious matter. Under the scheme a veterinary surgeon with a small practice may experience difficulties. The existing system has not worked. Perhaps we could compensate such veterinary surgeons in rural areas.

Eolas has spent money trying to perfect the tag system. Computerisation would help resolve problems that arise. Another area of wildlife which gives cause for concern is deer. Deputy Leonard stated that testing had not been carried out on a deer farm in his county. On-farm hygiene and the quality of tests in laboratories must be investigated. We realise the need to keep water and sewerage schemes free from pollution. However, the same priority is not given to the elimination of farm pollution and there is a backlog of grants to be paid. That type of on-farm investment is most important if animals are to be reared in a proper environment.

One veterinary surgeon who wrote to the Irish Farmers Journal stated many small holders are not members of farming organisations. Their concerns must be taken on board. Such farmers may not be represented by Teagasc.

I welcome the scheme and the fact that levies have been reduced. The farming organisations are happy with it and there is broad consensus on what should be done in the future. However, small producers may feel they are not represented under the scheme.

I welcome the opportunity to speak on the Bill. Bovine disease eradication has been ongoing in my county since 1954 when the area west of the Shannon was declared a "clearance" area. Despite much effort and considerable expense bovine TB is still a problem.

I welcome the Minister's frank admission that the target of a 50 per cent reduction set by ERAD has not been achieved. The consensus is that while some progress can be made, final eradication will be possible only when new test vaccines for wildlife and movement control arrangements are in place. Pending the development of these two measures the emphasis must be on containing and reducing the incidence of disease and the cost of programmes.

This is a new beginning. I welcome the proposal to abolish the compulsory pre-movement test and the commitment to set up a comprehensive research programme aimed at curtailing the spread of TB by wildlife and to improve feedback to farmers who suffer a disease outbreak. I know two farmers, whose lands adjoin, who have had reactors after more than 35 years free of TB. Four reactors were found in one herd and three in the other. Those farmers were told they must have a clear 60 day test before selling stock, but when they sought the return of their livestock cards after that time they were informed that a further 90 day test was required. They were not told, however, whether the infection was caused by a bought in animal, wildlife or otherwise.

The Department should adopt a better public relations position in respect of farmers whose herds are affected. They should be given detailed reports on whether TB is found in the animals after slaughter. The Department's veterinary officer should also give his opinion on the cause of the outbreak. Without the co-operation of farmers, veterinary surgeons and departmental staff, the objective of TB eradication will not be achieved. A farmer whose herd has been clear for more than 35 years, on discovering an outbreak of TB in the heard, experiences the same trauma as if there were a death in the family. His livelihood is at stake.

I welcome the Bill and hope the proposals receive the support of all concerned. We must give the new scheme an opportunity to work. Taxpayers, farmers and the EU can no longer pay out millions of pounds to control the disease. I wish the Minister and his staff every success in controlling this terrible disease.

I, too, welcome the opportunity to contribute to this debate. I am sure all farmers will welcome the proposed changes. Farmers detest testing day. Many people outside farming circles may not realise that it involves two days, the day on which the cattle are collected and injected and the day on which the veterinary surgeon returns to check if they have passed or failed. Most farmers have to present dairy and suckling cattle, yearlings, calves and weanlings for testing, all of which would be in individual paddocks during the summer months or in separate pens during the winter months. All cattle must be confined in one area because veterinary surgeons will not go to different places on the farm to carry out the test. Cattle confined in this way become frightened and often run all over the place causing many difficulties for the farmers concerned. If farmers had their way there would not be testing for TB.

Another matter that contributes to the detest of testing day is the fear of not passing and this lasts from the day the farmer receives notification of the test until the veterinary surgeon returns to check the cattle three days after the test. As Deputy Ring stated, an outbreak of TB in a cattle herd can be almost as devastating as a death in a family. Therefore farmers would welcome any proposals to change the system.

Although all animals are moved approximately five times during their lifetimes and most land holdings are badly fragmented, our national herd has a clean, green image abroad. A farmer's field could be surrounded by neighbouring lands which can mean cattle often intermix. The Land Commission put forward proposals which would have enabled farmers to exchange lands and keep their holdings together. Perhaps we could reactivate those proposals and keep our clean, green image, for which farmers should be complimented.

Many people in Germany, France and England want Irish beef on their supermarket shelves. However, we have been affected by the tail wind of the incidence of mad cow disease in Britain in that there has been a 40 per cent reduction in our beef exports. We have suffered at the hands of people here and abroad who do not care about the prosperity of our beef industry. Some people will say almost anything to damage our clean image. While the less we say about the mad cow disease scare the better, the 40 per cent reduction in our beef exports to Germany must be noted. If the incidence of TB increases our beef industry will suffer further. I was told recently that sheep scab is on the increase. The Minister of State, Deputy Deenihan, will have a particular interest in this matter as it comes within his area of responsibility. Sheep dipping is no longer compulsory. Wexford had a proud record in the eradication of this disease. When sheep dipping fees were payable activities at marts were monitored by the county councils, but this is no longer the case. I understood that an appropriate scheme was to be introduced by the Department.

The fact that the incidence of this disease is on the increase will not help our image. I ask the Minister to introduce an appropriate scheme either to maintain the figures at previous levels or, preferably, reduce them. I am not telling him what he must do to achieve this but, as in every other industry, there are cowboys in the farming sector. I want to get at the people who care little about our image and think only in terms of earning the quick buck.

The farmer does not object to paying fees. If he believes that his produce will find its way onto supermarket shelves in Europe, he will be prepared to pay whatever it costs. Problems can develop in the cattle sector, as in the case of the BSE scare. In this context none of the blame should be attributed to this country.

It is important that our image is maintained and, if possible, improved to protect our exports. We export almost £1 billion worth of meat each year. Live cattle exports amount to £250 million. A further £130 million worth of meat is produced for domestic consumption. If our image was to be affected in any way, this would cause havoc in the industry. It appears the Minister is tampering with it to find favour with farmers. While I welcome recent developments, as a farmer I will try to ensure that our image is maintained. I would like to think that everyone else will do the same but, as Deputy Upton said, we do not live in a perfect world. As the beef sector accounts for 4 per cent of GDP and 10 per cent of net foreign exchange earnings, we must be careful not to play games or do anything that would harm our image to protect an industry which is of vital importance to us.

Farmers danced with joy when they heard that the pre-movement test was to be done away with. What were the arguments in favour of introducing it in the first instance? Did it have any beneficial effect? What is the reason for the sudden change? Is it because the Minister is not going to deliver on his commitment in respect of the top-up premium for sheep in the near future that he wants to curry favour with farmers? Is he satisfied that by doing away with this test we can be guaranteed that levels will remain the same or be reduced?

When buying or selling farmers are conscious of the status of their own herd. There is no one more shrewd than the ordinary farmer who is selective in choosing the person from whom he will buy. Heretofore he was sure that any animals for sale at the mart had been tested for TB, but now he will be cagey. What effect will this have on prices? Deputy Kitt referred to the small farmer who because of a bad harvest — most farmers in my constituency are engaged in mixed farming — is forced to sell his cattle to put bread on the table for his family and whose herd is locked up for a year. I ask the Minister to give an assurance that the proposed changes will not make a bad situation worse.

There is a perception in non-farming circles that farmers are paid an adequate level of compensation and make money when cattle are removed from their herd and slaughtered under supervision, but this is not the case. In some instances, despite having tested positive, no lesions or evidence of TB was found when the animals in question were slaughtered in the factory. Does this suggest the scheme is not successful? The farmer concerned only receives one half to two-thirds of the market value of the animal. Is there a question of dishonesty? Where no lesions or evidence of TB is found, is the innocent victim, the farmer, not entitled to full compensation? He is very definitely so entitled.

I am aware that the present scheme is not all it should be but it will be difficult to develop a scheme which will be 100 per cent accurate. However, when an innocent party loses a substantial amount — even though his herd proved to be clean — questions must be answered. It is a sad fact that £1 billion — a figure which substantially comprises taxpayers' money — has been spent on the eradication of bovine TB. What has been the result of this expenditure? In the current year, £500,000 will be spent on research and, out of £63 million, £20 million will be paid to administration.

Having spent £1 billion, we do not know what causes the spread of this disease. Shame on all of us, and by that I refer to the successive Governments responsible, the Minister of State and the current Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry. I have raised this issue on many occasions during the past year and have yet to see a change in attitude on the part of the Department and the Minister of State. If this disease is to be eradicated, the Department must discover whence it came. Is the disease spread by badgers, birds or the wind? The Minister of State cannot give me an answer. Having spent £1 billion, we still do not know what spreads this disease. If the Department spent £500,000 on administration and £20 million on research, the proportions might be correct. The Minister of State should consider why so much money is spent on administration. He must also discover why so little attention is given to research.

There has been a frightening reduction in the amount of money expended on research since 1990. The allocation for administration has increased by 24 per cent while that provided for research has been reduced by 10 per cent. This figure represents 10 per cent in money and another 10 per cent can be added to account for inflation. That is a disgrace. It tells me that we have a vested interest in continuing this programme of disease eradication because many people are doing well out of it. The people who are doing best out of it are officials of the Department.

Is suimiúil an Bille seo. Bhí deis ag an Aire tabhairt faoi na scéimeanna galair i mbeithigh go bunúsach agus is mór an trua nár glac sé leis an seans sin. Tá mí-shásacht leis an scéim tástála i measc feirmeoirí agus an phobail. Is beag dul chun cinn a dhéanfar leis an mBille seo.

When introducing this Bill, the Minister referred to historic changes in the TB scheme for 1996. However, during the remainder of his speech, he failed to inform the House with regard to the nature of these historic changes. It is clear that this Bill makes cosmetic changes and does not address the disease eradication schemes in the fundamental manner required, a fact to which virtually every speaker referred. This situation is shameful in view of the reliance of our economy — employment in the agricultural sector — on exports of livestock and animal products.

As a nation, we depend on freedom from major animal diseases in our national herd to ensure continued access to our major export markets. To this end we have operated TB and brucellosis schemes since 1964. In excess of £1 billion has been spent on such schemes and successes have been achieved. This is particularly true of the brucellosis scheme with 99.9 per cent of the nation's herds free of it. Unfortunately, in the case of TB, only a little over 90 per cent of the herds are free of disease. In a national herd of 7 million animals, that is quite a worrying statistic. Several reasons exist for the large differential between the two percentages.

Brucellosis testing is mainly carried out by way of individual blood test. The process of such testing is far more transparent and open in its operation. Other aspects of the process, such as milk ring, are taken into account, as previous speakers have stated. A high level of confidence exists with regard to the form of testing undertaken to detect brucellosis. This is not the case with testing for TB. The relatively low level of farmer confidence in the test has been exacerbated by the Department's handling of the scheme in the past. The Bill before the House illustrates that point once more. When there are fairly fundamental changes in the way the scheme——

The Bill has nothing to do with the TB eradication programme.

The Minister of State is extremely helpful. However, he forgot to draw the attention of his party colleagues to that fact.

This is quite definitely the case with regard to TB testing. Deputy Treacy outlined cases of cattle being removed from herds and, when slaughtered, it was discovered that no evidence of lesions existed. Such cases are a very worrying part of rural folklore and are fundamental to the future of agriculture. The Minister of State, and anyone with a genuine interest in agriculture, should be aware of, and take account of, the facts when considering bovine diseases and their consequences.

I have no doubt that there are many cases where cattle that tested as TB reactors were subsequently discovered to be free of disease. Previous speakers referred to the veil of secrecy which surrounds some meat plants and has the effect of increasing farmers' suspicions. It is not difficult to understand the ire of a farmer whose animal, which tested positive, is subsequently found to be free of disease. Nevertheless, the farmer suffers financial loss and inconvenience associated with having his herd locked up. This is the nub of the problem in relation to the TB eradication scheme.

The Minister referred to the £285 million contributed to the scheme by farmers through disease levies. This quite substantial contribution represents only a tiny proportion of the cost of the TB eradication scheme to farmers to date. This is particularly true of the individual farmer whose misfortune it is to have his herd locked up because of TB. The scheme has never, at any stage, adequately addressed the question of compensation. Farmers have very good reason to live in fear of having a TB reactor in their herds. The potential cost of a relatively minor outbreak of the disease is enormous. The farmer experiences a loss of income while his herd is locked up for a period which seems to vary in accordance with the fashion dictated by the Department at any time, rather than because of the establishment of fundamental facts through research or other means. On almost every occasion there is an extra cost to the farmer in terms of his feed bill. This happens during the period when he has no income.

There is an incentive for each farmer to ensure that he does not have a TB reactor in his herd. When such an incentive is present, ways and means are discovered to ensure that the worst does not come to the worst. The current cost of the scheme is approximately £67 million. I am indebted to the Minister for informing me of that fact during his speech and I am sure it is relevant to the Bill. Of that figure, the cost of testing is £20 million, compensation costs £20 million, administration £20 million and operational aspects account for £7 million. There is a temptation to oppose the provision of £20 million for administration — that certainly would be popular among farmers and others — but my experience of administrative costs has been that they are in the main justified. They arise because the format of a scheme may dictate that much administrative work is associated with it. It is hardly surprising that is the case with the substantial national herd and the records required to be kept on foot of the scheme. I am therefore disinclined to adopt the populist approach and take a cheap shot at the administrators.

The level of compensation, which is fairly modest, is clearly inadequate. This is the one area of the TB regime that should be fundamentally examined. A scheme should be introduced to ensure individual farmers are not so severely penalised that they must, in some cases, resort to illegal means to ensure they escape the net. I do not think that happens to a great extent, but there is a strong incentive to do so.

Deputy Byrne referred to BSE which, in terms of publicity at least, is the bovine disease that most readily strikes terror into the heart of the consumer. Consumption of meat in some European countries has dropped dramatically mainly on foot of that concern. As a nation we must ensure that first the problem is dealt with and that the public is fully aware of the measures taken to address the problem of BSE to ensure it does not constitute a threat to the national herd.

Another aspect of this matter is the relationship between the veterinarians and the Department, particularly the Minister. Initially it was stated that in order to qualify for EU funding for these schemes, rotational testing would have to be introduced and that there was no way out of that. Unfortunately the matter became extremely confrontational and relations between the Minister and veterinarians broke down, which served nobody's interest. That was further evidence that what is delivered and presented as absolute gospel by Ministers and Department officials in terms of TB eradication is open to dilution when circumstances dictate. That undermines the credibility of the schemes and of the Minister.

As many Deputies said, there is need to embark on a campaign of research into bovine diseases. Farmers in particular have virtually no faith in the existing scheme of testing for TB. It is vital that a scheme with a modicum of openness and transparency be introduced. I know that poses difficulties for the Government in many areas, but perhaps it will be addressed in this area. There is also need to restore the confidence of veterinarians and farmers in the Department, the Minister and the schemes. Until that is done no progress will be made in the area of animal health.

I thank Deputies for their contributions. Both I and the Minister appreciate the general supportive approach to the new proposals outlined by the Minister at the outset of the debate. In response to Deputy Killeen regarding rotational testing, that proposal was put forward by a Fianna Fáil Minister, Deputy Joe Walsh. It was agreed in Brussels that a certain package would be available provided we introduced rotational testing over a three year period. We inherited that proposal and did our best to implement it. I negotiated the issue with the veterinarians and agreement was almost reached, but in the end they decided otherwise. As a result there is a possibility we could lose up to £14 million. The Minister is accused of being confrontational because he made an effort in that regard. We may receive £4 million this year because we achieved about 20 per cent of rotational testing of the national herd.

Deputy Walsh would have delivered.

We hope we will achieve our objective. Since Deputies referred to rotational testing, I wished to put on record where that proposal came from and how the matter proceeded. We will never know how effective rotational testing would have been if implemented in full. It was a reasonable proposal which veterinarians should have accepted. From meeting these people at their conference last week I think many of them regret they rejected it.

The eradication of bovine TB is always a contentious issue. It is important to realise that currently less than 3 per cent of the total of 150,000 herds are restricted because of TB. That is contrary to the damaging impression often given that the national herd is riddled with TB. In disease terms 1 per cent infection levels are notoriously difficult to reduce. Deputy Killeen stated that 91 per cent of herds are free of TB, but the figure is 99 per cent. Bovine TB conforms to the predictable pattern in disease eradication, with rapid progress in the earlier stages and eventual reduced progress coupled with increasing difficulty. In the periods when progress is rapid enthusiasm will run high and significant progress can be achieved. Understandably when progress slows to a virtual standstill enthusiasm will wane. When that happens it is very important to ensure enthusiasm is not replaced by pessimism. A one per cent problem is easier to deal with than a 100 per cent problem. Other countries have reduced that one per cent and eradicated bovine TB. Market image will be vital in the GATT-free market, strong competition trade area we are facing. We should recognise the tremendous amount of work and commitment in the farming industry since the 1950s in getting the TB incidence level down to 1 per cent.

In countries where TB has been eradicated, such as Denmark, their eradication programme commenced at an earlier time when national herd populations were comparatively compact, that is prior to the policy to expand livestock production. Thus unlike Ireland, they were not battling to contain and eradicate the disease in the context of an expanding cattle population. In addition, the trading pattern in these countries does not involve extensive animal movement, as is the case here. Their wildlife populations — and therefore any possibility of transmission of disease through the wildlife sector — are relatively small. By contrast, Ireland has the same badger population as Sweden, which is a much larger land mass. In our case the quarter of a million badgers are concentrated in closer proximity to our cattle herds. Many other countries have not eradicated TB — for example, New Zealand, Spain and Italy.

For us the final eradication of bovine TB from the national herd remains the ultimate objective as part of our marketing image projection — that matter was referred to by Deputy Byrne. It is very important that we retain the credibility of our national herd and the disease-free status for which we are renowned among our trading partners throughout Europe. The current level of TB requires that, to maintain our officially TB-free status under the European Union Trading Directive 64/432/EEC, a TB test must be carried out on all animals each year. In the circumstances an annual round of testing will continue to be a requirement, certainly for the foreseeable future. That directive also requires that animals must be certified by an official veterinarian as having undergone a tuberculin test. That in effect rules out the possibility of veterinarians being replaced by technicians for TB testing purposes and, perhaps, answers the question posed by Deputy O'Malley. I was interested to hear Deputy Kitt recommend the use of lay technicians. Some years ago I remember the then Minister Clinton being involved in a dispute with veterinary surgeons over a similar proposal.

The general consensus and advice is that while progress can be made, final eradication of bovine tuberculosis will be possible only when a laboratory-based diagnostic blood test, a vaccine for wildlife and computerised movement control are available and come on stream. A number of Deputies touched on these specific matters in their contributions. Pending the development of these to practical field application, the emphasis must be to contain and, hopefully, reduce the disease and costs; hence the current proposals to introduce a more effective programme and to devolve the cost of testing element to farmer control.

It is worth noting that our reactor compensation package is one of the most comprehensive in Europe, a matter to which Deputy Killeen and others referred. The package is designed to ensure that in broad terms a farmer is enabled to purchase a similar commercial type replacement animal of the non-pedigree type to get quickly back into production. The package comprises two elements, the price paid for the carcase by meat plants on the basis of a competitive weekly tender and the reactor grant structured to take account of the higher replacement value pertaining to higher yielding cows and in-calf heifers, as alluded to by Deputy Leonard, being up to £600 per cow in addition to carcase value. Where the entire herd is depopulated, an additional depopulation grant is paid. Alternatively, income supplement is payable monthly where more than 10 per cent of the herd has been removed and where depopulation is not considered appropriate.

This year some £20 million will be paid to farmers by way of reactor grants. An independent study of the compensation arrangement carried out by Professor Seamus Sheehy of UCD in 1991 concluded that in general the compensation arrangement was fair in its application. The arrangement is non-statutory and works well. Some Deputies saw implications in the new proposals for reactor compensation. It should be noted, however, that reactor compensation is the subject of ongoing review in the light of market trends and any alteration to the grant arrangements is made in consultation with the main farming organisations.

Grants are paid promptly once the herdowner has submitted the requisite back-up documentation as requested by the district veterinary office. Nevertheless, it is accepted that breakdowns create hardship and inconvenience and no genuine farmer wants the disease.

In regard to expenditure and benefit, the scheme for the eradication of bovine TB was first introduced in Ireland in 1954 initially on a voluntary basis followed by a progressive extension of compulsory measures. Gross expenditure, including administration on TB and brucellosis disease eradication in the 40 year period up to the end of 1995, will be an estimated £1 billion with receipts of £353.2 million, giving a net expenditure of £646.8 million. The predominant receipt was the disease levy amounting to £285.3 million in the total period. The gross annual expenditure in 1994 was £64 million and will be £67 million in 1995. Excluding the administration cost of some £20 million, the £44 million operational cost in 1994 comprised compensation for reactors of £17 million, testing fees of £20 million and materials, research and travel costing about £7 million. Farmer levy receipts amounted to almost £28 million.

Professor Sheehy's 1991 cost-benefit analysis carried out on the scheme expenditure demonstrated that the 16 per cent rate of return to expenditure was strongly cost beneficial having regard to access to markets which could have been denied in the absence of embarking on an effective eradication programme. The annual expenditure must be seen in the context of protecting an industry with some £3 billion annual output, £2 billion in export earnings and its related employment which is substantial, and also in the context of the sheer magnitude of the essential annual programme involving ten million TB tests, 3.5 million brucellosis tests and the removal of and grant payment in respect of 30,000 TB reactors and 8,000 brucellosis reactors. It should be noted that in the interest of efficiency in expenditure, TB and brucellosis tests are in general carried out simultaneously.

On the question of administration costs raised by Deputies, it is the intention that the Department will arrange to have an assessment undertaken in the context of the strategic management initiative and the reorganisation of the Department by a consultancy firm into staffing levels and other resources required to deliver the agreed programme with the following terms of reference, "to evaluate the staffing levels and structures and other operational aspects and resources required at the Department's headquarters, DVOs and laboratories and elsewhere to effectively and efficiently implement the revised programme for disease eradication."

On the wildlife aspect, the fact that bovine TB can be transmitted by infected badgers and cattle was recognised by all participants including the wildlife lobby at the Royal Irish Academy Conference in 1991. There is also evidence available from the east Offaly project that removal of badgers helps to reduce the disease. The extent of the involvement of wildlife is the subject of ongoing scientific research. We are increasing the research effort on this aspect and farmers will assist the Department in the ongoing work which will be undertaken under licences from the Wildlife Service and in accordance with the provisions of the wildlife legislation. There is increasing concern about a position which requires the compulsory removal of valuable infected livestock while at the same time action is not being taken to address other sources of infection. It is increasingly evident that all potential sources of infection must be considered so as to protect rural farm families and their livelihoods. The increased research activities on wildlife will involve validation of data from the east Offaly project through replication of that programme in a number of areas where it is considered that bovine TB infection may be related to infected badger activity; the securing of single and multiple licences in cases of breakdowns where there is a veterinary view of wildlife involvement and the continuation of other research. Farmer participation under the direction of DVOs will be a significant element in the efficient implementation of the licensing arrangements under the foregoing research measures.

A comprehensive research programme is continuing to examine all aspects in relation to the transmission of bovine TB and to develop new technological tools to address deficiencies. While some of this work is promising, field application of blood testing and vaccines is still some way off. The Commission team which visited Ireland recently was extremely impressed with our research programme and this will continue both at national level and in conjunction with other countries. In this context I refer in particular to the comments of Deputies Noel Treacy and Hugh Byrne when they criticised the amount of expenditure on research. We hope to build on this programme and expand it. I agree we need to put more money into research but the reality is that our present programme is quite a good one. It is important that we build on it in order to arrive at an ultimate solution.

A TB investigation unit with specialist staff is examining factors such as the possibility of DNA strain-typing. Significant work on vaccine development and other projects is under way in the universities. Irish researchers collaborate with their counterparts in other countries. It can be noted that the tuberculin test is the scientific and legal test used throughout the EU and in most countries worldwide and it has been used to eradicate TB from cattle in most of the north European countries such as Denmark, Holland and France.

As with most biological tests, the TB test has certain limitations. A small number of reactors are found subsequently not to be infected, while others who test clear are found to be diseased. The blood test is attempting to overcome these limitations. Of the 10,000 herds restricted annually for bovine TB, 5,000 have a single reactor only. Of these, a percentage do not have infection but reactions occur for nonspecific reasons. We intend to increase the analysis of glands and, based on herd and area disease positions obtaining, we expect that it will be possible to lift restrictions on some herds earlier than heretofore.

The clear intention is that restrictions will be lifted only where the most exhaustive laboratory tests of glands show no evidence of infection, there is no disease history in the herds involved and after considering the disease position in the area in question. In practice, any earlier lifting of restrictions will arise only where such release does not pose any increased risks than would exist otherwise.

The definition of an infected animal is that the animal reacted to the tuberculin test. The absence of visible lesions at post mortem does not mean the absence of TB infection. Arising from the regular and thorough testing programmes in Ireland, the disease is often detected before the advanced, visible lesion stage has been reached. Any early lesions may be microscopic in nature and not visible to the eye.

While the current cattle identity card system is generally sound, the development of computerised animal movement control with a permit for one movement only will improve tracing of disease. Under the current cattle identity card system an animal may move any number of times within the 60 day TB test validity period. The project has been complicated by the need to prioritise the computerisation of the CAP reform payments. The Department is currently reviewing the requirements for a movement system in the light of the measures that are now in place. I am very anxious to ensure that this review would be completed quickly.

In regard to the likely benefits of the proposed new arrangements, it should be noted that the existing arrangements contained the disease at about the same level over the past 30 years but at considerable and escalating cost to the Exchequer and farmers. The objective of the revised regime is to make the programme more effective and to moderate costs. To this end, cattle will continue to be tested each year and there are very strong measures in place or to be put in place to ensure that this will happen, i.e. checks at marts, meat plants, export points, restrictions on movement into and out of herds which are not tested, potential disallowance from premia/ headage schemes if farmers do not have valid identity cards, ultimately prosecution and fines and disallowance for compensation under schemes if rules are not observed. I trust that this will allay the fears raised by Deputies that the abolition of the 60 day pre-movement test would increase the incidence of disease. Farmers in general are responsible and will wish to protect their herds and investment. The DVOs will supervise testing and arrange a higher level of testing by departmental vets and contract vets. This testing will be targeted to areas where disease levels are high and where the testing programme is falling behind. A quality control unit will be set up to monitor testing and to investigate suspicious events. We will continue the random surveys and we will have a more active approach to research on transmission of TB by wildlife. In essence, the objective will be to operate a more targeted and strategic approach to this disease.

Finally, in regard to the technical issue of the Bill, following the establishment of the Single Market, it is necessary inter alia to provide a legal basis for payment of levy on exports directly to the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry rather than via the Revenue Commissioners as the Minister's agent, which was the former position.

As the Minister indicated at the outset, the proposed amendments do not involve any extension of the levy arrangements or any change in the rates of levy. There are, however a number of technical adjustments proposed to improve the supervision and inspection of the levy system. In particular it is proposed to extend the definition of an accountable person by whom or on whose behalf an animal is being exported from the State, to remove the exemption in regard to the keeping of records by whom or on whose behalf an animal is being exported and to provide for the inspection and removal of such records by an authorised officer of the Minister.

The Bill also provides for increased maximum fines on summary conviction for offences under the diseases levies legislation from £500 to £1,500 and an increase in the maximum fines in respect of certain offences under sections 48 and 49 of the Diseases of Animals Act, 1966. The latter fines were last increased from August 1979 under section 23 of the Bovine Diseases (Levies) Act, 1979. The proposed increases are from £500 to £1,500 in respect of a summary conviction, from £2,000 to £10,000 in respect of a conviction on indictment in respect of specified offences and from £1,000 to £5,000 in respect of other indictable offences.

I have answered a number of specific questions in my contribution this evening. Deputy Kitt asked about extending TB testing to deer and we are making progress in this respect. If Deputies want any further information, they may contact me. Overall this was a good debate which attracted a lot of interest. A number of good suggestions were made which I hope we can examine and, if possible, take on board. I ask the House to endorse these necessary administrative charges.

Question put and agreed to.
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