Máire Geoghegan-Quinn
Question:1 Mrs. Geoghegan-Quinn asked the Minister for Health the current situation in relation to the nurses dispute; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [2769/96]
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Nurses' Dispute.
Máirín Quill
Question:24 Miss Quill asked the Minister for Health the efforts, if any, he is making to ensure that there is no strike action by nurses in the health boards; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [2730/96]
Ivor Callely
Question:69 Mr. Callely asked the Minister for Health the issues and concerns, if any, that have been brought to his attention by nursing organisations; his views on the dispute with the nursing profession; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [2832/96]
Limerick East): I propose to take Questions Nos. 1, 24 and 69 together.
Unions representing general and psychiatric nurses have been involved in negotiations with health service management for some time in relation to their claim for a special pay increase under the Programme for Competitiveness and Work.
Following an earlier breakdown and intervention by the Irish Congress of Trade Unions, exploratory talks between the management and union sides took place over a three-day period last week. These talks ended on 1 February 1996 and the unions have decided to ballot their members on an offer made by the management side aimed at resolving the nurses claim within the parameters of the Programme for Competitiveness and Work.
If this ballot results in the offer being rejected, I understand that the unions then intend to commence arrangements for a ballot of members on industrial action. The likelihood of industrial action will depend on the outcome of this second ballot. The exact form of such action is not clear at this stage.
The generous contribution made by nursing staff at all levels to the health services is widely acknowledged. In general terms, there is a very constructive relationship between nurses and their employers and between the organised profession and the Department. In advancing the management side position in this pay dispute, particular care is being taken to protect this constructive relationship.
However, that cannot take from the responsibility of the negotiators on the management side to defend the Government's position on public service pay policy. That position is constrained by the terms of the Programme for Competitiveness and Work pay agreement. I have to assume that all parties to that agreement entered into it in good faith and with a full appreciation of the obligations involved. If the demands of the nursing unions were to be met in full, it would entail a significant breach of the Programme for Competitiveness and Work parameters, with inevitable follow-on claims from other groups in the public service and, ultimately, to a cost explosion in the public service pay bill. It was precisely to avoid such an outcome that the Government at the time agreed the terms of the Programme for Competitiveness and Work pay agreement in its present form. Against that background I can only assume that there is continuing commitment to that agreement by all Members.
The Government takes an equally serious view of the need for stability and certainty in pay costs, and any threat to the overall integrity of the Programme for Competitiveness and Work agreement would be a matter of serious concern to both the Government and, no doubt, the other social partners. For these reasons, the solution to the nurses' pay dispute will ultimately have to be found within the parameters set down in the Programme for Competitiveness and Work. This can be done, given a constructive approach by all parties concerned.
The recent exploratory talks were convened on the basis that management would be willing to discuss improvement in the offer to nurses in respect of their special pay claim under the Programme for Competitiveness and Work within the context that: (1) any settlement would accord broadly with the terms of the Programme for Competitiveness and Work; (2) talks would attempt fo reach a mutually acceptable agreement which would be put to nurses with the support of the unions involved: (3) the services of an independent third party facilitator could be used; and (4) the unions' ballot on industrial action would be stood down while negotiations progressed.
The management side tabled a conditional offer of £20 million aimed at resolving the claim. In the absence of a willingness on the part of the unions to engage in detailed discussions as to how this total sum should be distributed over the various grades, the management side proposed a distribution which con. centrated on the priorities identified by the nursing unions.
On this basis, the recent offer to the nursing unions provides for the following: in the case of staff nurses the current maximum of the pay scale could be increased from £17,485 to £19,207, primarily on the basis of long service increments; in the case of ward sisters, the current maximum of the scale could be increased from £19,727 to £22,166; in the case of unit nursing officers, an increase of 10 per cent on all points of the salary scale could be applied; in the case of matrons, a revised four-band pay structure, to replace a 14-band pay structure, with a salary maximum of £35,000 could be introduced; and in the case of nurse tutors, there could be phased upgrading of lowest grade (of tutor) and a 6.5 per cent increase.
The management side have also offered to sympathetically consider any proposals made regarding the position of long-term, temporary nurses and in relation to continuing education, where there is already a significant ongoing investment.
The management side have also offered to table other initiatives. However, these issues could only be accommodated in the context of an overall settlement on the pay claim which is within the terms of the Programme for Competitiveness and Work agreement.
The disposition on the management side of these talks has been to tilt the balance as far as possible in favour of the nurses' interests. That will continue to be the position and I would urge the nursing unions even at this late stage to reconsider their position and re-enter talks with a genuine intention to work towards a realistic settlement.
I recognise the potentially harmful impact on the health services and its patients and clients that could arise from a widespread industrial action by the nursing unions. All possible steps will be taken by the Government, by myself as Minister, by the health agencies and by the management side to the negotiations to avoid such an outcome and to mitigate its effects if the nursing unions persist with it.
I also would like to acknowledge the tremendous, unrecognised contribution which is made by more than 26,000 members of the nursing profession throughout this country. I notice that the Minister said this dispute can be resolved if a constructive approach is adopted by both sides. Why then has the approach of management in these negotiations been one of inflexibility, lack of imagination and of not being prepared to go the extra mile to keep things within the public service policy which we all support?
(Limerick East): The Deputy was in Government when the Programme for Competitiveness and Work was negotiated. She is, therefore, very well aware of its provisions and of the possibilities for negotiations which exist under the remaining 3 per cent element of the Programme for Competitiveness and Work. The management have not been inflexible. They approached the talks last week with great flexibility. The figure of £10 million which was originally on the table was raised to £20 million. It was only when the unions decided they did not want to negotiate the manner in which that £20 million would be allocated that the management tried to answer the needs of the nursing unions by bringing forward the detailed proposals which I have outlined to the House. If the unions had a view that resources would be better allocated elsewhere, the management would be quite flexible about that, and were prepared to indicate their flexibility at all stages.
On the question of imagination, it does not require much imagination to realise that there are legitimate grievances which the nurses have as individuals and as a profession for over 15 years. I will try to address those in so far as I can, but I am constrained by the provisions of the Programme for Competitiveness and Work. There is no solution which allows me to pay a special pay claim to the nurses with any prospect of confining that to nurses, because my contacts with the trade union movement have already indicated that anything that is negotiated in a manner which is not within the parameters of the Programme for Competitiveness and Work, and looks like a special pay increase, will be immediately demanded by the other public service unions. It is difficult, but there is no lack of good will, no lack of commitment to solving the problem. Significant progress is being made, and it is a pity that negotiations have broken down. We are ready to negotiate it but I must stress that there would be difficulty in addressing all the anomalies and grievances which the nurses have in a manner which would take the matter outside the Programme for Competitiveness and Work. Within the Programme for Competitiveness and Work there will be no lack of imagination or flexibility.
The Minister is correct in saying that my party was part of a Government which negotiated the Programme for Competitiveness and Work. Before that we were also part of a Government which negotiated the Programme for National Recovery, and any objective commentator would have to agree that the Programme for National Recovery was a far more inflexible and more rigid public service pay policy. Despite that, and despite the fact that fiscal policy within Government was very sensitive at the time, the Government was capable, with imagination, flexibility and productivity, and without going outside the Programme for National Recovery, of negotiating such disputes as those involving the ESB, the radiographers, the dental assistants and the fire brigade staff. It is not beyond the bounds of possibility and imagination, within a much more flexible and far less rigid pay policy agreement, for management to negotiate to give the nurses what they deserve and what we strongly support. Does the Minister agree that it would be possible to do that? Will the Minister explain how the Minister for Education could negotiate a deal with the teachers and stay within the Programme for Competitiveness and Work if it is not possible for the Minister for Health to do the same for nurses?
(Limerick East): I think it is possible to resolve this dispute within the parameters of the Programme for Competitiveness and Work, but I need the people across the table negotiating with me to negotiate within the parameters of the Programme for Competitiveness and Work. I agree there is some flexibility in the Programme for Competitiveness and Work but it does not give an enormous amount of elbow room. We are talking about flexibility of 3 per cent and it can be arranged in a manner which involves structural changes in the profession.
The questions about teachers should be addressed to the Minister for Education but the Deputy will be aware that the negotiations with the teachers have been ongoing for almost 18 months, the solutions were not arrived at easily and, as I understand it, they are not concluded. I hope we will be able to resolve the difficulties which the nursing unions have listed but it is not only the amount of money involved but the context. The Deputy will be well aware that the public service unions regard themselves as roped together and they will invoke relativity claims as soon as one group is perceived to have got more than another. That would lead to a pay explosion that we do not want and take the public service beyond the boundaries of the Programme for Competitiveness and Work, which were negotiated by the Deputy's party when she was in Government.
Will the Minister agree that at all times nurses and the nursing alliance representing its 26,000 members states it wants to negotiate a resolution to the dispute while remaining within the Programme for Competitiveness and Work and not outside the public service pay policy? Will the Minister look at the lessons to be learned from the long negotiations with the teachers and the solutions another Minister is capable of finding without going outside the Programme for Competitiveness and Work and put it into practice on the management side? Is the Minister prepared to ask management to put what has been learned into practice? Is there the political will to resolve the dispute with the nurses?
(Limerick East): I will deal with the last part of the question first. It is self-evident that any Minister would like to resolve a dispute with a profession as dedicated as the nurses. That goes without saying and I do not think it should have been questioned. There is a context in which a settlement must be found and there is not great flexibility. There is room, we have exercised some of it already and I hope we will be able to resolve the problem.
There seems to be a suggestion in the Deputy's question that the management side are not interested or imaginative enough in working out a solution but I assure her this is not the case. They are as interested as I am in working out a solution, but there are very wide implications for the eventual conclusion of this dispute. I referred to them in the context of my reply and again in reply to supplementary questions. There is not a lack of willingness, flexibility, imagination or the willingness to sit down and discuss options. My officials, management and I are available to start talks tomorrow if people want to come and talk to us.