John O'Donoghue
Question:13 Mr. O'Donoghue asked the Minister for Justice the plans, if any, she has to introduce a register in respect of individuals convicted of child sex abuse. [9868/96]
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Child Sex Offenders.
I am informed by the Garda authorities that the Garda Criminal Records Office already maintains indexed records of all persons convicted of criminal offences, including persons convicted of sexual offences. These records are confidential Garda records. It is not the practice to disclose the information contained in them except in certain limited and exceptional circumstances.
The exceptional circumstances in question include the provision by the Garda Síochána of information to employers, including those in children's residential centres, on the criminal convictions, if any, recorded in respect of applicants for posts which involve substantial access to children. The release of such information is, having regard to the provisions of the Data Protection Act, 1988, subject to the prior written consent of each applicant.
Does the Minister of State accept that, more often than not, employers, even those engaged in child care services, are unaware of the possible criminal records of potential employees? In this context, it is most desirable that everybody in the State be made aware that a register of sexual offenders is available for examination.
I have already pointed out that we have a Data Protection Act which provides that the release of such information is subject to the prior written consent of the job applicant. I will answer the question with reference to other hats I wear, particularly my positions in the Department of Health and the Department of Education. For example, I recently made a regulation whereby anyone applying for a job with a health board has to receive clearance from the Garda authorities. No one can now be employed in a position relating to children without clearance from the Garda, at the request of the health board.
The Garda Criminal Records Office maintains a nominal index of all persons convicted of an indictable offence or other reportable offence — that is, non indictable convictions of a criminal nature, for example, convictions for assault, malicious damage and certain road traffic offences. This information is maintained on a computer file at Garda headquarters and includes other pertinent information concerning the convicted person — the normal information one would expect — such as date and place of birth, address, alias, marital status. The only difference is that the Garda authorities do not maintain a register of persons exclusively convicted of sex related offences.
It is extremely desirable in the light of the increasing number of child sex offences in the State for a separate register to be kept in respect of child sex offenders. Does the Minister of State accept that those convicted of such offences should be obliged to notify their victims, through the authorities, of their pending release? Such a victim alert scheme was very sensibly suggested at yesterday's Garda Representative Association conference and has, as such, the backing of the Garda.
Deputy O'Donoghue should have been there.
Apparently a number of matters were suggested at yesterday's conference but we do not necessarily have to accept them. Wearing my Department of Health hat again, I add for the Deputy's information that lists of suspected or confirmed cases of child abuse are kept by the health boards. I have already said in the House and elsewhere that I am looking towards a more uniform approach in relation to that.
I assure the Deputy that, as far as I am concerned, anything we can do to minimise or stamp out child abuse will be done. I have, for example, recently issued a discussion paper on mandatory reporting, to which we are receiving a large number of responses. We have received over 60 to date and I have extended the time limit to the end of this month, by which time I expect to have received 100 responses. One of the questions posed in that discussion paper relates to the matter which the Deputy raised, in terms of what reporting should be done to a third person. I will look very carefully at that. I assure the Deputy that if I come to the conclusion that what he is requesting here will help towards the prevention or minimisation of child abuse, it will be done.
The Minister of State said anybody seeking to work with children in a health board has to receive clearance from the Garda authorities. Does this mean that sporting organisations, voluntary groups, religious orders, schools and any other organisation which has cause to recruit or employ such a person can also avail of this clearance facility? Does the Minister of State accept that a criminal conviction for any degree of child sexual abuse is a very serious matter of public concern? The person was tried in public and received a sentence which was in the public domain, and the conviction should also be a matter of public property. There should not be reservations about the release of that information.
Given also that paedophiles tailor their lives and careers around access to children, all the facilities of the State should be available to guard against allowing access to children by such convicted paedophiles.
A basic civil rights question arises here as to what should happen to those who have paid their debt to society. We cannot ignore the fact that if they are convicted and serve their sentence they have paid for the offence they have committed, nor can we ignore that this is a civil right.
The question of sporting and other organisations where suspected paedophiles or people with convictions may wish to have access to children is covered by my regulations. Where there is substantial contact with children clearance is required and the Garda can provide it. My colleague, the Minister of State at the Department of Education, Deputy Allen, will shortly introduce guidelines on sporting organisations.
I do not doubt the Minister's sincerity. Is he aware of a recent case where a supervisor employed by FÁS and working where a children's summer project was being conducted was sentenced recently to four terms of imprisonment of three years to run concurrently for four offences of child sex abuse in and around the area in question? Is the Minister also aware that this person had two previous convictions in England? The man in question is only 50 years of age. He will probably be released sooner than the expiry of the three year sentence in respect of the four crimes he committed and will reoffend.
Will the Minister agree that this is an especially heinous crime? I agree with his comments on civil rights, but these also apply to the public and especially the younger generation. Will he also agree that younger people, especially, need the protection of society and that in cases of paedophilia involving a person's second, third or even fourth conviction — where it is apparent that the person will reoffend — the person's photograph should be in Garda stations? The gardaí could then spot them and if, for example, they found one of them working as a janitor in a school they could warn the principal.
We must protect our young people. The view of the public is that society does not care, that everything is forgivable, whether it be excessive drinking or sexual problems. Will the Minister agree that, where sentencing appears to be lenient, as in the case I outlined, section 2 (1) of the Criminal Justice Act, 1993, should be amended to give the DPP greater scope of appeal against such sentences?
I am unable to refer to the last aspect of the Deputy's question. Whether we like it or not, the Judiciary is independent and the issue of sentencing is a matter for it. I always repeat that the interest of the child is the paramount consideration in these matters. If we remember this we will not depart too far from the straight and narrow although this does not mean that the civil rights of other people and the rights of others under the law can be ignored.
I would like to think that, as a result of the recent regulations which I made, what happened in the case referred to by the Deputy could not happen again. I would be confident that if that person or somebody like him applied for a job involving children he would have to apply for clearance which would not be granted.
I disagree with the Minister's concern for the civil libertarian difficulties he mentioned regarding the right to a good name of the person convicted. What protection can he offer to society against a person who has completed a sentence for serious sexual offences against children, who has not undertaken any therapy and who is, therefore, unreformed bearing in mind that the person can avail of the remission of 25 per cent of his sentence in the usual way?
I marvel at the way the Deputy can use a word like "concern" in describing my concern and make it appear like a dirty word. We cannot prejudge whether a person is reformed upon release from prison. In my original replies I stated that lists were kept by the Garda of all convicted people, including those in the category to which the Deputy refers, and that lists are also kept by the health boards. Bearing in mind my remarks about the rights of people under the law, if I consider that this aspect should be strengthened I will do so.
FÁS is not under the health boards.
Offences of child sexual abuse are in a different category from other types of offences in that the rate of recidivism, or repeat offending, is much higher. In those circumstances, surely the Minister accepts that the availability of a separate register to protect the children of the country is more than desirable
If somebody applies to FÁS for a position which involved contact of that nature with children, that person will require clearance from the Garda authorities.
Will FÁS be notified?
Presumably it will. However, if the Deputy considers that it would be helpful for this to get a wider circulation I will endeavour to do so.
I would appreciate that.
With regard to Deputy O'Donoghue's point, I accept that paedophiles are in a different category in that it now appears the chances of them being cured are less than for others who have convictions. To that extent his point is worthy of consideration. However, I repeat that we already have a list which includes convicted paedophiles. It is kept by the Garda authorities and a list is also kept by the health boards.