Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 23 Oct 1997

Vol. 482 No. 2

Order of Business.

The Taoiseach

It is proposed to take No. 6a, motion re ministerial rota for parliamentary questions; No. 6b, motion re appointment of Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs and No. 9, statements regarding An Bord Glas Annual Report, 1996.

It is also proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that: (1) Nos. 6a and 6b shall be decided without debate and (2) the following arrangements shall apply in relation to No. 9: (i) the opening statement of a Minister or Minister of State and of the main spokespersons for the Fine Gael Party and the Labour Party shall not exceed 30 minutes in each case; (ii) the statement of each other Member called upon shall not exceed 20 minutes in each case; (iii) Members may share time and (iv) a Minister or Minister of State shall be called upon to make a statement in reply which shall not exceed 15 minutes.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal for dealing with items 6a and 6b agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with item 9 agreed? Agreed.

Mr. J. Bruton

In view of the unfortunate topicality of this matter, what are the Government's plans for publication of legislation to establish an inspectorate to investigate allegations of child abuse?

The Taoiseach

The Bill is at an early stage of drafting and it could be well into next year before it is ready for publication.

Mr. Spring

I understand negotiations commenced yesterday between the Government and the unions representing Telecom Éireann workers about employee shareholding. Has a timescale been set for the conclusion of those negotiations?

The Taoiseach

This matter has been in the public domain for a long time. The issues are very clear and I hope the discussions will be completed as quickly as possible.

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): In the past two days people have been appalled by the callous execution of Alan Bannister in Missouri after a dubious legal process.

An Ceann Comhairle

That matter does not arise on the Order of Business.

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): It does. Will the Taoiseach set aside Government time in this session to discuss the abolition of capital punishment internationally, which is the wish of the people?

An Ceann Comhairle

The matter does not arise on the Order of Business. The Deputy should resume his seat.

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): We should discuss how the wish of the people can be brought to bear on countries such as the United States.

Mr. Yates

Last week the Dáil passed a motion in support of the Louth residents' group. On the Order of Business last Thursday, in reply to a question from the Leader of the Opposition on whether funding for the legal side of the case is included, the Taoiseach said "yes". Is the Taoiseach aware the Minister of State yesterday sent a lengthy letter to the Louth residents' group——

Mr. Jacob

A generous letter.

Mr. Yates

——refusing a meeting with them, inserting new unworkable preconditions in terms of funding research and refusing to meet legal costs? What is the Taoiseach's response to the charge that this flies in the face of acceptance of the motion and the commitment given on the Order of Business last Thursday?

The Taoiseach

The position has not changed from the reply I gave Deputy Bruton last week. The group concerned should sit down in the normal way, as do all other groups, without stenographers and deal with a person who, as a former Leas-Cheann Comhairle, is approachable. The Government had agreed to pay for research and when it came to light that there was a requirement for further research we stated after last week's motion that we would pay for that research. Accumulated bills, mostly legal bills, are at issue in this case, but these matters can be addressed. The matter should be researched to see if there is a case to be taken and then let us get on with it. There will be no difficulty on the part of the Government, but if the group insists on having rows with the Minister and will not talk to him or his officials without stenographers being present, it will be difficult to proceed on the matter. The group should not be so unreasonable.

Mr. McDowell

Will the Taoiseach take the necessary action to ensure the BTSB unit in Cork is not obliged to close, as it will have to do in a matter of weeks if action is not taken by the Department of Health and Children to ensure the necessary funding is provided?

An Ceann Comhairle

Strictly speaking, that matter does not arise on the Order of Business.

Mr. McDowell

It is a matter for which the Minister for Health and Children has responsibility.

Mr. Yates

I agree with the Taoiseach the best way to proceed is by means of a meeting but the Louth residents' group are concerned about misrepresentation of facts subsequent to the meeting. Is the Taoiseach saying there will be no meeting if a record is not taken of that meeting? If there is a question of transparency it is not unreasonable, given the detailed documentation involved, that there should be a verbatim account of such a meeting.

The Taoiseach

At most meetings of party spokespersons, Ministers' and officeholders' notes are taken and there is no difficulty with that. During my 20 years in politics I never had a group who said they would meet me only if they had stenographers. I have never heard of that and it is entirely unreasonable.

Mr. Dukes

Some people took different measures.

Mr. Rabbitte

We have not seen any Bill from the promised list of legislation. Can we anticipate some legislation from the Government in this term?

A Deputy

What legislation?

Mr. Rabbitte

Any legislation that is not ours.

The Taoiseach

To date six Bills have been published and 21 are promised before Christmas.

Mr. G. Mitchell

Can an opportunity be found to introduce a token Estimate to allow the House an opportunity to examine the effectiveness of Operation Freeflow? I do not want to sound critical — and maybe it would be unfair to be critical — because efforts have been made but it would be timely to examine if the outline plan is fully operational and successful.

An Ceann Comhairle

That matter does not arise on the Order of Business.

Mr. G. Mitchell

I asked if an opportunity could be found to introduce a token Estimate. I believe that question is in order.

An Ceann Comhairle

Does the Taoiseach wish to comment?

The Taoiseach

I have no problem in trying to devise some mechanism in Private Members' time or the Whips could look at some mechanism. I have no difficulty in having a debate as it is coming to that time of the year where it is most important it is dealt with.

Mr. Stagg

The matter of the Dundalk residents and the meetings and so on was raised by the Taoiseach this day week and was in order. I attempted to raise the matter yesterday morning and it was out of order.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is not strictly in order now.

Mr. Stagg

It was raised this morning and obviously it is in some sort of order. May I ask the question I could not ask yesterday morning? Will the Government allow the Minister of State, Deputy Joe Jacob, who is doing the best he can with one hand tied behind his back by his senior colleagues, to go ahead with the meeting with the Dundalk residents' group on the same basis as the last meeting which set a precedent by having a notetaker from both sides present? That would resolve the matter and we would not need to go into any more detail.

An Ceann Comhairle

Does the Taoiseach wish to have a final word?

The Taoiseach

If both sides want to have note-takers the matter can be readily resolved. The issue is that one side wants a stenographer, which is interpreted differently. If we can stay with note takers the answer is "yes", the meeting can proceed.

Mr. M. Higgins

An féidir leis An Taoiseach a rá liom a bhfuil sé i gceist ag an Rialtas reachtaíocht a foilsiú san bliain seo, nó go luath in 1998 le cúrsaí Gaeltachta cúraimí Aire na Gaeltachta nó limistéar Gaeltachta?

The Taoiseach

Go luath i 1998.

Mr. R. Bruton

When is it proposed to publish the Education Bill? Will we receive a copy of the consultancy report on devolved power which forms a major part of the legislation? The Taoiseach will recall that in Opposition the Minister for Education continually insisted that such papers should be made available to allow a full debate on the matter. Will those papers be made available to the Opposition to allow a full and informed debate on the Education Bill?

The Taoiseach

The Education Bill is due to be published later in the year. I will raise the matter to which Deputy Bruton referred with the Minister.

Mr. Penrose

In view of the alarming statement by the president of the ICMSA, Mr. Frank Allen, at its annual conference yesterday, will the Government formulate a policy to arrest the flight from the land which is running at more than 100 per week? Will the Taoiseach allow time in the House for a debate on the Santer proposals which will have a serious impact on farming?

An Ceann Comhairle

Seeking time for such a debate is not in order on the Order of Business.

Mr. Penrose

It is in order to ask if the Government is formulating a policy proposal on this matter?

Mr. Higgins

(Mayo): I note from newspaper reports that the Government intends to introduce legislation requiring banks and building societies to bear the cost of imprisoning people prosecuted for the non-payment of debts. Will this form part of the prison services Bill or will it be separate legislation?

The Taoiseach

As far as I am aware, there are no Government proposals in that regard. The matter to which the Deputy referred was mentioned in a conclusion of a report. Legislation has not been promised in that area.

Mr. Higgins

(Mayo): The Minister was quoted on the matter.

Ms McManus

When will the proposed nursing Bill be published? Hospital wards are due to close because of a shortage of nurses. Will the Taoiseach assure people that support staff will be employed to support nurses so that wards, particularly geriatric wards, are not closed? I presume he is aware of the concern in this area.

The Taoiseach

The legislation will be completed when the Nurses' Commission publishes its final report. The Minister for Health and Children is well aware of the shortage of nurses which has existed for some time.

Mr. Coveney

Will the Taoiseach accommodate the House with a debate on agriculture before Christmas, particularly in view of the Santer proposals which are important for the future of farming?

An Ceann Comhairle

That is not in order on the Order of Business.

Mr. Gormley

When does the Government propose to introduce a tax on plastic bags?

An Ceann Comhairle

That does not relate to promised legislation.

Mr. Ferris

When does the Taoiseach intend to introduce the greyhound Bill in which the Minister of State, Deputy Davern, has a particular interest?

Mr. M. Higgins

He has been muzzled.

Mr. Davern

Deputy Higgins has been muzzled.

The Taoiseach

I am sure the Deputy knows from his time in Government that there are considerable legal difficulties with that Bill. I am advised it was in trap one, but it is now in trap six.

Mr. J. Bruton

This legislation encompasses an all-Ireland body and anything that has an all-Ireland dimension should receive priority. Legal difficulties are not an excuse for inaction. Priority should be given to overcoming those difficulties.

Mr. Sargent

Does the Taoiseach propose to make a statement on America rowing back its action on greenhouse gases given our policy in this area?

An Ceann Comhairle

Statements are not in order on the Order of Business.

Mr. Sargent

Given the Taoiseach's statement that he has never had the experience of a group claiming they would met him only if a stenographer was present, will he indicate if there has ever been a case, like the one taken against Sellafield, that has required such careful documenting of the Government's position?

An Ceann Comhairle

That is not in order.