John Browne
Question:6 Mr. Browne (Carlow-Kilkenny) asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform the circumstances surrounding the recent robbery at the AIB, Ardkeen, Waterford. [2927/99]
Other Questions. - Bank Robbery.
It is not the practice to give detailed information about an individual Garda investigation or operation except in singular instances where the circumstances are so exceptional that such a course is deemed to be appropriate. I have been informed by the Garda authorities that the armed robbery in question, which occurred only ten days ago, is still the subject of a full and detailed investigation. I understand a number of armed raiders entered the bank at approximately 5.40 p.m. when the bank was closed. Staff were still on the premises and the raiders escaped with a quantity of cash and cheques. The description of the getaway vehicle, a red Mitsubishi jeep, was carried in the media. I appeal to anyone who has information on the robbery to contact the Garda Síochána.
As the House will appreciate, I cannot comment further on the details of the robbery at this stage but the Garda Síochána has been effective in reducing the number of armed robberies in recent years.
(Carlow-Kilkenny): There were two major bank raids in the first month of the year. Does this instil confidence in the public? A sum of £1.2 million was taken in Dalkey. Guns appear to be freely available. Does the Minister agree that the banks should do more? The Minister criticised the Opposition for its behaviour. Has he forgotten the way in which he treated his predecessor? He almost blamed her for the raid that took place shortly after she took office.
The opposition I furnished my predecessor was extremely constructive. It led to the enactment of several Bills, not least the Proceeds of Crime Act, 1996, which I asked my predecessor to deal with in 1995. Although serious offences have been committed, the public can be more than confident about the current position. Garda statistics show a consistent drop in the number of armed raids under my stewardship. The number recorded in 1997 was 48 per cent lower than the number recorded the previous year and only one third of the number recorded in 1993. The detection rate has also improved from 26 per cent in 1993 to 34 per cent in 1997. I do not have the 1998 statistics but I understand the provisional statistics show a continuation of this trend with a 9 per cent drop. I congratulate the Garda Commissioner on these excellent results. The Deputy's lack of magnanimity in acknowledging my role should not cloud his ability to extend a semblance of generosity to the Garda Commissioner. That is the least we should expect from him, irrespective of his thirst for revenge.
(Carlow-Kilkenny): I am being realistic.
(Mayo): The Minister asserted that it is not his responsibility to provide statistical data without prior notice. Has there been a change of policy since the previous Administration when every file contained supplementary information, including statistics and percentages? Every contingency was covered. Does the Minister not acknowledge that his last reply to a supplementary question stands on its head his assertion that he does not have statistics? He has rhymed off a list of statistics in relation to the percentage drop during his term as Minster. He spoke of 40 per cent of this and 30 per cent of that. In view of the fact that the Minister gave us percentages, what is the actual drop in the number of armed robberies in 1997 and 1998 compared with previous years? Can the Minister also acknowledge the fact that big bandits are back in business. There was a drop in serious crime and bank raids had virtually ceased. However, in the space of a year we have had three major bank robberies – in Ashford which, thankfully, was thwarted by the Garda Síochána, in Dalkey where £1.2 million was taken, £80,000 has not been recovered and the bank robbers are still at large, and now Ardkeen where guns were used and £100,000 was taken and the raiders escaped. The detection rate is not very impressive. Can the Minister give us the precise figures?
While Deputy Higgins was Fine Gael Chief Whip, whenever I asked statistical questions of the Minister for Justice, Deputy Owen, the Ceann Comhairle ruled that statistical question must be tabled. As I explained, I do not have statistical information to respond to every possible question in the purview of the Deputy's imagination. I can only give him the information which is available to me. I have the percentage drop in the number of armed raids in recent years and I gave the Deputy that information. I hoped it would have been sufficient.
(Mayo): Does the Minister have the actual numbers? We can work out the percentages for ourselves with a calculator.
The Deputy is being facetious. I have given him the percentage drop and now he wishes to have the actual numbers. That is like saying that remoteness is relevant to where you live yourself. I have shown that there have been substantial drops. It is my wish that we would eliminate this type of crime completely. The Garda air support unit – the helicopter and the aeroplane – and the considerable resources which have been allocated to the Garda Síochána in recent times unquestionably assist us. I hope to see a continuing drop in these kinds of offences in the year ahead.
(Carlow-Kilkenny): Should the banks play a role in crime prevention? There is no point in having a helicopter if nobody knows a bank raid is taking place. Should the banks be expected to do something to help?
The helicopter has proved to be tremendously successful in raids of this kind. It is my intention to purchase an additional helicopter this year, based on the old adage that a bird never flew on one wing. I have no doubt that this will be of additional assistance in trying to ensure that offences of this kind are minimised. I am not pretending that it will be possible to eliminate them but every effort is being made to minimise their occurrence. Deputy Browne is quite correct. The helicopter has proven to be a considerable deterrent and I give great credit to the Garda air support unit for what appears to be a continuing drop in this kind of offence in 1998.
(Carlow-Kilkenny): What about the banks? I did not ask about the helicopter. If the helicopter is given information it can chase any car successfully. Has the Minister any view on what the banks should be doing to help the helicopter?
To the best of my knowledge, the banks are engaged in obtaining, depositing and distributing money. The gardaí are engaged in the business of security. The banks make a budgetary contribution to the cost of security.
(Carlow-Kilkenny): Only when money is being conveyed.
In terms of cash in transit, the banks make a budgetary contribution. The question of whether banks should make a large contribution to State security costs is far too broad an issue to deal with today.
(Mayo): May I ask the Minister three specific questions? Is there any indication of paramilitary involvement? What kind of guns were used? How many men were involved in this attack? In view of the huge pre-tax profits being made by all the banks, do they not have an obligation to put their houses in order by enhancing their security alert systems and their contacts with the Garda Síochána when a raid occurs?
At this stage of the investigation into the robbery, no conclusions have been reached by the investigating gardaí regarding the identity of the persons involved. Deputy Higgins is well aware that it has never been and will never be the practice of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to speculate on the identity of those who might have been involved. It would be contrary to long standing practice, and to the public interest, if anything were said in the House which might disclose the extent of Garda intelligence in relation to the activities or the capabilities of serious criminals or subversives. When a group carries out a raid such as this it is clear that they are serious criminals irrespective of what label one might attach to them afterwards.
I was reluctant to intervene while the last question was being taken but before we move on to the next question I wish to clarify a matter. Supplementary questions are not allowed when the main question is a statistical question. When the main question is a policy question it is in order to ask a statistical question arising from the policy question. That has always been the practice and I thought it best to clarify that matter for future reference.