Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 25 Feb 1999

Vol. 501 No. 2

Adjournment Debate. - ISPCC Files.

Ms M. McGennis

I acknowledge the huge contribution by the ISPCC and its predecessor the NSPCC to supporting families, particularly children. Despite its present difficulties, I am confident the organisation's good work will continue.

This matter relates to files on people who were placed in industrial schools. A recent report suggested that the files might have been destroyed. When adults who had been placed in industrial schools made inquiries about their details they were told the files had been destroyed. However, it emerged since then that files were referred to the ISPCC as late as the 1980s. That appears to contradict the original information given to these people.

This is an issue on which I have laboured long and hard. I have serious concern about records not being collected and collated and kept in a proper manner. I have raised this issue before in the context of adoption agencies and their files. There is a concern that since, in many instances, the religious orders and adoption agencies concerned no longer exist, their files are likely to be destroyed. I have called on this and previous Ministers to ensure that records of this nature are collated and kept in a secure place.

The last time this issue arose and received a great deal of attention was when archival material was found in the Department of Foreign Affairs – Deputy Spring was the then Minister and Tánaiste – relating to children who had been adopted in the United States. At the time an indication was given that the records would be collated as a matter of urgency and access to them would be made available. However, access is another issue which cannot be resolved today.

It is important that people who seek information regarding their family of origin, birth details or even basic health information should know that such details are available. My concern, which is shared by many, is that for as long as the keeping of these records is dispersed among institutions and organisations such as the ISPCC, adoption societies, the Department of Foreign Affairs and the Department of Education and Science there is a possibility they could be destroyed. It has been reported to me that in certain cases, fires have caused the destruction of records which cannot be replaced.

I thought this issue came within the remit of the Department of Health and Children but it has been referred to the Department of Education and Science. There is an urgent need for a single Minister to take on the task of collating the information and records which are held by these disparate bodies and I urge that this be done as a matter of urgency.

Mr. Treacy

I am aware of the media report to which the Deputy refers. The report in question suggested that files of the ISPCC, and its predecessor the NSPCC, relating to those organisations' involvement in having children placed in the old industrial schools may have been destroyed. The files in question belong to the ISPCC and its predecessor, the NSPCC. However, I share the Deputy's concern that any files, regardless of ownership, which could be of benefit to former pupils of the industrial schools in gaining knowledge about their childhood should not be destroyed but should be retained for such use.

My Department has a range of records and files relating to existing and former industrial and reformatory schools. In some instances the information dates back to the last century. The level of information available varies considerably between schools. Overall, the records contain data relating to more than 36,000 children who were placed in these schools over the years. Some of the entries are incomplete and generally the information is not very detailed. The records available include some 10,000 files on individual children. The level of detail in these files can vary significantly; in some instances the information is very limited. In other cases, however, significant detail is given regarding the circumstances of the child's placement in the school and subsequent developments in relation to the child.

Files also exist in relation to the original arrangements surrounding the establishment of some of the reformatory and industrial schools and also their general administration, funding and inspection.

Industrial and reformatory schools were originally certified under the provisions of the Children Act, 1908. The number of industrial schools in the State varied from a maximum of 51 in the 1940s to just 25 in 1984. Among the recommendations in the Kennedy report of 1970 was one that responsibility for children in care who were not offenders should be transferred to the Department of Health. Departmental and ministerial responsibility for 23 of the remaining 25 industrial schools – known as group homes – was transferred to the Department of Health's child care division on 1 January 1984.

The number of children accommodated in the industrial schools ranged from 6,378 in 1949 to 796 in 1984. Prior to 1984, the great majority of children referred to industrial schools were placed there as a result of what was described as "lack of proper guardianship". The Department's records show that evidence in relation to lack of proper guardianship was generally given to the courts by an inspector of the ISPCC, or its predecessor the NSPCC. Only about 10 per cent of the children were referred to the schools on foot of indictable offences.

In 1997, my Department engaged professional archivists to conduct a detailed examination of all the files, records and registers relating to the industrial and reformatory schools in my Department's possession. The completion of the archivists' work during 1998 resulted in the creation of a database of all records in my Department's possession. This database is utilised within my Department to facilitate searches of old records on foot of inquiries such as those from former pupils of the old industrial and reformatory schools.

The House will appreciate the extremely sensitive nature of much of the data involved in this area and that access to such data is strictly controlled. My Department is in consultation with the National Archives Office regarding the question of future access to these records.

In view of the concerns expressed about the possible destruction of some records of the ISPCC in this area, I have asked my officials, together with the National Archives Office, to establish the exact status of the records in question. It is important that where such records exist, they should be preserved and maintained for the benefit of the individuals to whom they relate and also to facilitate research and study of this aspect of our social history.

In view of the long interest Deputy McGennis has shown in the area of records, particularly those relating to social history, I will communicate with her as soon as the relevant de facto information comes to hand.

The Dáil adjourned at 5.15 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 2 March 1999.