Vote 35 – Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism (Supplementary).
That a supplementary sum not exceeding €30,000,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending 31 December 2002 for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism, including certain services administered by that Office, and for payment of certain subsidies, grants and grants-in-aid.
I thank Members for this opportunity to introduce a Supplementary Estimate to provide for a number of important interventions aimed at enhancing the level and quality of facilities and programmes in Irish sport. In introducing this Supplementary Estimate for the approval of the House it strikes me that the timing of this debate could hardly be more appropriate, given the outstanding performance of the Irish soccer squad at the World Cup in Japan and Korea. The spirit, professionalism and high quality skills of our young team, powered by a never say die, indomitable will, produced great football and great results which captured the hearts of the nation in recent weeks.
Deputies will be aware, however, that the maturing of top world class talent such as we have does not happen quickly or easily. Many of the players in the current senior squads, both rugby and soccer, have benefited from years of coaching, training and development provided first at school and local level, then progressing through the various stages to representative and international competition. The provision of high quality, appropriate and sustainable facilities to meet the training, coaching and competitive needs of sports organisations is asine qua non of sports provision in a modern society with legitimate ambitions to pursue the achievements of excellence in sport.
The sports capital programme provided for under subhead C1 of the Vote – grants for sporting bodies and the provision of sports and rec reational facilities funded through the national lottery – is the primary vehicle for supporting the provision of sports facilities at all levels throughout the country. Since 1998 over €213 million has been allocated to 2,904 projects under the programme.
My predecessor, Deputy McDaid, signalled to the Select Committee on Tourism, Sport and Recreation on 21 March 2002 during the debate on the 2002 Estimates that further financial assistance for projects such as the redevelopment work on Croke Park was anticipated to arise during the current year. He indicated that, depending on the rate of drawdown during the year under subhead C1, a Supplementary Estimate for the Vote of the Department would be required during 2002. Accordingly, an additional amount of €19.046 million is required to provide funding for the Gaelic Athletic Association to assist it in the funding of the completion of phase 3 of the Croke Park redevelopment programme. For the information of Deputies, phase 3 incorporates the old Hogan Stand portion of the stadium. The provision of this assistance for the GAA will help it, not just to complete a magnificent stadium required by a major sport with huge attendances, but will help alleviate the demand on the association's national funds which can now be better deployed in helping local clubs, county and provincial boards to provide much needed new and enhanced facilities throughout the country.
An additional amount of €11.43 million was committed to the Football Association of Ireland in 2002 to assist the association and its affiliated clubs to provide new, refurbished and enhanced indoor and outdoor facilities to assist clubs to function effectively in appropriate, well designed and hygienic conditions so important in the nurturing and development of skills and increasing participation levels and attracting young people and children to sport. As a key feature of its strategic planning, the FAI has carried out an extensive survey of soccer facilities around the country. The association has identified a list of clubs and centres for development and enhancement which will contribute significantly to the expansion of the sport as well as raising standards of performance at all levels from grassroots through to national squads. As payments in relation to this commitment are made on the basis of work completed, the additional funding required in 2002 is not significant.
An additional €3 million is sought under subhead C5, Irish Sports Council – general assistance to sports organisations and other expenditure in relation to sports activities, which is also national lottery funded. The €3 million is to assist the Irish Rugby Football Union in the development of the game of rugby which continues to develop as a major sport in Ireland. There are 214 clubs and 254 schools catering for a total playing population of almost 80,000.
The €3 million, in respect of which I am seeking the approval of the House, is being provided for the Irish Sports Council to help implement the operational objectives of the IRFU. The Irish Sports Council has recently had negotiations with the union and devised a number of specific participation programmes to achieve the overall objectives, which are: to increase the levels of participation through the strengthening and expansion of the school system and in least developed areas – for example, there has been a successful project to develop the game in Tallaght; to ensure the development and sustainability of a strong, healthy and vibrant club structure – clubs of Ireland project; to operate a sub-professional elite programme incorporating both schools and clubs, to develop Irish players capable of playing professional rugby for Ireland and the provinces – for example, there will be emphasis on under 18 youth and schools teams as well as plans to prepare under 19 and under 21 World Cup squads. I know the plans and programmes developed between the IRFU and the Irish Sports Council will contribute to social inclusion and cohesion and the general health and well being of our society.
I am proposing that an additional amount of €7 million be provided for the Sports Campus Ireland project under subhead C6 in 2002; €5.2 million of the total amount is for capital expenditure and €1.8 million for current expenditure. This additional funding is required to meet expenditure on the aquatic and leisure centre project at Abbotstown, but I must stress that it does not represent additional financing in overall terms for capital expenditure on the project. The funding is required now because the aquatic centre is on target to be completed by year end, thus ensuring the pool at Abbotstown will be ready in time for the 2003 Special Olympics World Summer Games.
In July 2000 the Government decided that an aquatic centre should be developed on the Abbotstown site and that it should be completed in time for use during the Special Olympics World Summer Games in 2003. Following a public competition, a consortium comprising Rohcon, Waterworld UK and Dublin Waterworld Limited was selected by CSID, and on 23 January 2002 the Government approved the signing of the contract with the winning consortium. The Government also agreed that the project would be subject to a maximum Exchequer capital contribution of €62.1 million, with an additional €4.6 million to be regarded as a contingency amount. Of the €62 million capital fund, €21 million was expended for building work on the project in 2001 and a further €39.2 million will be required in 2002. The capital sum that I have proposed in this Supplementary Estimate represents the balance needed to facilitate completion of work corresponding to the total projected level of expenditure. A retention amount of 3% or €1.8 million will be held over until 2003 in accordance with normal procedure. Work is progressing well and the pool is currently on target for completion by December 2002.
The Supplementary Estimate of €30 million comprises €19.046 million for the GAA, €7 million towards the completion of the aquatic and leisure centre, €3 million for the Irish Rugby Football Union with the balance to meet commitments made to the FAI. I commend the Supplementary Estimate to the House.
I take this opportunity to congratulate the Minister on his appointment to this very important ministry. As a fellow county man, I am delighted that both of us will share responsibility for sport, tourism and the arts, which are of major significance in our county. Following what the Minister said in the Private Members' debate earlier this evening, I will be as constructive as possible, but will point out inadequacies and the problems that face the sectors for which I have responsibility.
In welcoming this Supplementary Estimate I join the Minister in congratulating the Irish soccer team for its superb performance in the World Cup. Bearing in mind the subsequent performances, we can just wonder what might have been with a little luck. There was a possibility of Ireland going all the way if events had worked out right.
I note that another GAA man, Deputy Tony Dempsey, is present this evening. I compliment the GAA on its superb development in Croke Park which is now one of the finest stadia in Europe, if not the world. As an amateur organisation, the GAA deserves great credit for providing such a stadium, bearing in mind there are professional organisations which cannot provide the same kind of facility. It has been put in place because of the sweat of many county and club players throughout the country who perform on an amateur basis without any remuneration or proper compensation. The contribution of those who put it in place by making money for the GAA should also be recognised.
I know the GAA will do this in its own time, but it should give serious consideration to using Croke Park for other events that generate the necessary funding to provide for the maintenance of Croke Park and perhaps other developments within the Gaelic Athletic Association. I realise the GAA is an organisation that does not like to be dictated to by politicians. Nevertheless, people who were in the stadium last Sunday saw for themselves that it is a world class facility. It would be unfortunate if the GAA, and Ireland, could not display this great facility – built by an unique and amateur organisation – to the whole world. It would be a showcase for Ireland if international soccer, rugby and other sports could be played there. Hopefully we will see that happening.
Will the Minister clarify the sum of money that was committed to the GAA at its congress in April 2001 as it obviously influenced the decision about allowing other sports to use Croke Park. Is that money still available to the GAA? Is it contingent on the GAA participating in the new national sta dium? That should be clarified because the GAA was expecting that money, they need it as they are in debt and were factoring that money into their overall investment.
I know from documents that were made available under the Freedom of Information Act, 1997, that the FAI was promised a large amount of money if they withdrew from the Eircom Park project. No doubt this is part of the package which they need. It is the only organisation that still has teams changing in the back of cars and along the side of ditches. I have seen it happen before their matches. That is not acceptable and they certainly deserve the support to put the proper facilities in place to ensure their players can change in comfort. When the Minister is looking at the allocation of national lottery funding he could favour clubs who operate common facilities.
Mention has been made of the allocation made to the IRFU to enhance sport in schools. The organisation has a very good schools programme. I ask the Minister to do his best to place facilities in school grounds. Those facilities can be used by local clubs at night and by the school during the day. The Minister should give preference to sports proposals such as that in future.
The Labour Party has supported and is very welcoming of the Special Olympics which are due to be held in Ireland next year. It should prove to be a great event and I am sure everyone is looking forward to it, none more so than the participants. It is a great pity that the aquatic and leisure centre became surrounded by such controversy. However, since so much taxpayers money was involved it was inevitable that the project would ultimately be subjected to scrutiny. The report by the then Attorney General, Deputy McDowell, following investigative journalism by The Irish Times exposed precisely why there was so much public concern about the manner in which this project originated and was progressed. It is clear that the Taoiseach himself subverted normal Cabinet procedures when the original decision was taken. The extraordinary contract whereby a consortium was paid on a percentage basis meant that there was no incentive to control the spending of taxpayers' money. The McDowell report is clear concerning the circumstances surrounding the award of the main contract to a shelf company with no track record in the business. Nevertheless, this legacy of maladministration and waste of public money should not blind us to the merits of the Special Olympics and hopefully the belated changes introduced as a result of the hearings by the Committee of Public Accounts should bring this project back under control.
On the grander project of Sports Campus Ireland there is such fundamental confusion at the heart of Government that nobody knows what is now intended. We are told work will commence on a world class national stadium – or so Fianna Fáil thinks. Not so, say the Progressive Democrats, a more modest stadium will be built but the location is a secret. The HighPoint-Rendell report clearly showed the cost of the Taoiseach's vanity project to be twice what he told the House. Will the Minister tell me, in the context of the worsening public finances where he is going to find the €1,000 million? What about the state of the hospitals, or the condition of services for people with a disability or the urgent need for increased public housing? What about the real need for real investment in local communities to provide a sports infrastructure for young people who want to participate in sport and not just watch it?
The Tánaiste, Deputy Harney, and the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy McDowell, in particular sought to convey the impression during the election that the Progressive Democrats in Government would kill off the "Bertie Bowl". Suddenly, after the votes have been counted, the Progressive Democrats have become more equivocal. Now that they are safely ensconced in ministerial Mercedes they no longer seem to give a damn about how much taxpayers' money goes into the Taoiseach's favourite monument to himself. We already have an 80,000 seater stadium in Croke Park. We saw what a splendid facility it is last Sunday. Taxpayers' money helped build it and I do not object to that. The GAA has done wonders for sporting participation for decades among the youth of Ireland. Why should Croke Park not be opened once in a blue moon when the attendance at the occasional international match, be it rugby or soccer, requires an 80,000 seater stadium? No matter how well we did in the World Cup, those occasions will be rare enough. Instead the Taoiseach's machinations swung the GAA against throwing open their doors and perversely committed them to providing 200,000 customers per annum for the "Bertie Bowl". This will pauperise Croke Park and will make little impact on the operational difficulties of Abbotstown.
It may be that a new modern stadium with around 50,000 seats is necessary. I would hate to see Lansdowne Road go the way of the Glenmalure Park at Milltown where Shamrock Rovers used to play. Why not redesign and develop Lansdowne Road in partnership with the rugby authorities? The "Bertie Bowl" was born at a time when the Government had so much taxpayers' money it did not know what to do with it. The well known tax exile J.P. McManus pledged £50 million at a time when the Taoiseach was talking about the stadium costing about twice that amount. At the rate things have been added to since, Mr. McManus's £50 million will not even pay for the corner flags or a hot dog stand at Abbotstown.
Who does the Government think it is fooling? Where are we going to get the patrons to operate Abbotstown even if we are prepared to see €1,000 million going into the building stage? Maybe Mr. McManus and some other of the Taoiseach's friends are planning Irish partici pation in a European super league for soccer, but I do not think so. It is time we learned who or what is really behind this grandiose project. What about the reality of the sports infrastructure up and down the country? Children and school kids are togging out in cold containers with no shower facilities. There are few swimming pools and many run down sports clubs that are permanently trying to raise money. Facilities for young people are pathetic and all the Taoiseach can think of is a monument to his memory at Abbotstown.
We have a community swimming pool at Douglas in Cork and are desperately pleading with Government agencies to upgrade it in order to keep it open. We have a soccer academy that is about to close because it cannot get funding to pay its rates. We need to take a serious look at what we are doing with taxpayers' money.
I am sharing time with Deputies Joe Higgins and Crowe.
The Deputies have five minutes. How would they like to divide that time?
One minute and 45 seconds each. I congratulate the Minister on his appointment and on being the first Minister to bring a Supplementary Estimate to the 29th Dáil. I am sure it is the first of many we will see in this Chamber. Bearing in mind the value of the work the GAA does as an organisation at community level in providing facilities that would not otherwise be provided. There is confusion about the considerable amount of taxpayers' money which has been given to Croke Park without any understanding as to whether that fine facility will be used by other sports organisations. The Minister must clarify that point. It is a farce that the GAA has voted against using the facility in such a manner, yet it has allowed it to be included in the tender documents for the Euro 2008 tournament. Although such double-think is familiar to the Minister and his party, it cannot be allowed to continue.
There is a problem with the Supplementary Estimate in that it seeks to reward organisations which have considerable sums of funding. The IRFU is a well funded organisation with considerable access to commercial funding and the FAI is being given less than €1 million. That seems to indicate a pecking order which, in the aftermath of the World Cup, does not reflect the nature of sport in Ireland. Minority sports, particularly those involving women, have not been given proper attention by the Department for which the Minister is responsible.
As regards the €7 million for the swimming pool at Abbottstown, while that is the least contentious issue as far as the Green Party is concerned, we want to put on record our concern about the tendering process and the award of the management contract.
I support the State investing in sport and recreation. If it had been done on a more widespread basis in the past, particularly in working class communities which cannot support sports and recreation infrastructure, many of the destructive things which happened in those communities, such as young people being diverted into the dead end of heroin addiction, could have been avoided. I am a member of the local authority which gave planning permission for the aquatic project in Blanchardstown. I urge that authority to give that permission as quickly as possible to allow the Special Olympics to be held. I strongly support that project, but I want the Minister to assure me that after the Special Olympics it will be opened to the wider community for general use.
I support the funding of organisations such as the GAA, the FAI and the IRFU, and particularly their constituent parts at club level. However, I have serious objections to how these organisations are allowing themselves to be used by powerful alcohol pushing companies in sponsorship deals. Alcohol is highly destructive in our society. These sports organisations should not push it. State funding should be made conditional on them not continuing to allow alcohol companies to push their destructive products.
I congratulate the Minister on his new position. We all recognise the important role sport plays in community development and enhancement. I salute the valuable work done by groups such as the GAA, the FAI, the IRFU and many other sporting organisations which have played an important role in developing sporting activities throughout the country. However, it is clear that lip service was paid to sport for many years at Government level. The appalling conditions in which many young and older people find themselves on Saturdays and Sundays are unacceptable and prehistoric. If one goes to watch people play sport at weekends, one will see them changing at the side of pitches. I am glad the Minister said that some of the funding will be used to build changing rooms. Without them, people will be left to change at the side of the road or behind ditches. We are talking about Ireland in 2002 when the Government is seeking to build a sports campus at huge cost. Surely that is putting the cart before the horse. Sport needs to be developed at local level first. We need to provide first class facilities to encourage participation at junior level.
The Taoiseach gave a commitment to the delegates at the GAA annual conference in April 2001 that the Government would be prepared to give approximately €70 million to Croke Park. Does that commitment still stand and, if so, when will the money be paid to the GAA or is it contingent on the GAA supporting the new proposed national stadium? The programme for Government gives a commitment to provide a stadium of international standard. Will the Minister outline the timescale for the provision of that stadium? Will he also confirm its location? Will it be at Abbottstown or, as was reported recently by a Progressive Democrats source, at Ringsend?
The letter to the GAA of April 2001 included a commitment to €15 million for the redevelopment of Croke Park to enable it to be ready for the Special Olympics. That amount has been paid. The letter also stated that there would be €20 million per annum for three years to include €15 million per annum for Croke Park. That grant has not been paid as it was clearly connected to the development of the national stadium, which was not proceeded with since May of last year. However, the Government has allocated £15 million, or €19.05 million, to Croke Park in 2002 which is the subject matter of this Supplementary Estimate. Some €63.49 million, or £50 million, has been provided to Croke Park since 1997.
As regards the national stadium, we know it is a proposal which was discussed during the recent general election. The Taoiseach stated that if returned as Taoiseach it was his intention to proceed with the building of a national stadium. No one can deny there is a mandate for its construction from the people through the general election. The intention is to seek to have the national stadium constructed prior to the European Championships which take place in 2008. The timescale for the construction of the stadium is relatively fluid, but it will take up to four or five years even if it is commenced immediately.
I have not yet brought proposals to Government as to how the matter will proceed. However, it is my intention to bring forward positive proposals to the Government after consulting with the various parties, namely, the relevant sporting organisations, the Campus and Stadium Ireland team and the Office of Public Works. While that range of consultations must take place within a short period of time, the Department has been in consultation with the sporting organisations and the other parties over a protracted period. However, it is my intention to have early meetings with the sporting organisations concerned with the development with a view to bringing forward a memorandum to Government at an early date seeking its approval to proceed.
I cannot answer Deputy Deenihan's question about where the stadium will be built. Many people favour the Abbotstown site. I have heard other people favour a site nearer the city centre. However, in the final analysis it is a matter for the Government to make that decision. It would be inappropriate for me to specify to the House where I would propose that the stadium be located without having first obtained the approval of my colleagues in Government.
It should not be taken for granted that the return of a particular Government is a mandate for a specific project; the Minister might be mistaken. Assuming that the project goes ahead, how many events at full capacity will it take to arrive at a break-even situation in any one year? What does the Minister envisage these events to be that could attract capacity audiences of 80,000? In relation to the aquatic centre, what exactly will the breakdown be in terms of access for clubs versus the public?
The Deputy has asked a number of questions. The first thing that has to be said is that the stadium will be filled to capacity on the number of occasions when the capacity of the stadium will allow. In other words, the number of times on which the stadium will be filled to capacity will depend on the capacity of the stadium. If, for example, the capacity of the stadium was to be 80,000, one might conclude that the number of events which might fill it would be X. On the other hand, if the capacity of the stadium was to be 60,000, 65,000, 70,000 or 75,000, obviously the number of times on which the stadium would be filled to capacity would vary—
Is that the reason the Minister awarded the contract?
The Deputy is putting the cart before the horse. It all depends on what the capacity of the stadium is. Depending on the capacity of the stadium, one will obviously be able to deduce how many times it will be filled to capacity. Since that decision has not yet been made it is not possible for me to tell the Deputy how many times the stadium will be filled to capacity. However, when a decision is made regarding the capacity of the stadium I will be the first to let her know how many times it is anticipated it will be filled.
Regarding the second part of the Deputy's question, also referred to by Deputy Higgins, it is the intention once the Special Olympics are over to ensure the general public of Dublin, and Ireland, have access to what will be one of the finest water centres in the entire world.
My supplementary question was related to that topic—
The Deputy will have his opportunity.
In relation to this Supplementary Estimate of €30 million, we see over €26 million being spent on capital projects in the Dublin area. Some of the remaining €4 million will also be spent in the Dublin area. Given that the Department's budget under this subhead is now €336 million a year, will the Minister or his civil servants know the extent to which such funding is being made available outside the greater Dublin area where two thirds of the population live?
It should be noted that the previous Minister was particularly generous in apportioning money to County Donegal. I am not sure if the Minister has any particular geographical region he wants to so reward, but it is important for those of us interested in a national sports strategy that this type of information is made available for the benefit of the House.
I have the capital funding totals for the years 1988-2002 and can furnish the Deputy with a copy. It would be impossible to go through the entire document, otherwise we would be here all night. Last year sports capital funding provided for Dublin amounted to €22,844,900. The sum spent in the entire country amounted to €78,591,400. The Deputy will be pleased to learn that of this sum, €7,251,000 was spent in Cork.
Will the Minister elaborate further on the mandate given to those who will be running the aquatic centre in Blanchardstown? As he may know, Blanchardstown has been designed to grow to a population of 120,000. Finglas also has a huge community. There is then the greater Dublin area. Will the Minister give me an assurance, in view of the taxpayers' money he is committing here, that there will not be prohibitive fees to prevent members of the local community or any community from using the aquatic centre, that entrance charges will not be prohibitive?
The Corduff estate, a huge working class area, is located just beside the centre. Will it be open and affordable to the children of Corduff and the children of Dublin and Ireland? That is what I want to know. I would like to know that there will be very wide access in terms of the days of the week on which people can enter and that it will be an available, creative leisure centre and pastime for a whole generation of youth – for all generations.
I certainly do not believe in exclusivity, nor would I support it. It is a proven fact that given the opportunity, it matters little what social class a family comes from or what income it has in terms of producing a world class athlete. I aim to ensure the Deputy's aspiration is fulfilled and that the general public, including the Deputy's constituents, have access to the aquatic centre. It is, after all, the property of the Irish nation, not any one person or group. Although it is an operational matter, I can tell the Deputy we will ensure young people, and the not so young, have this wonderful facility available to them after the Special Olympics. It will contribute enormously to people's enjoyment in the Deputy's constituency and beyond.
How much will the project actually cost and when will it open? Has a plan been worked out with regard to transporting people to and from the facility in safety? Will there be a reliance on public transport, given all the problems of Bus Átha Cliath in the Dublin area? Will there be park-and-ride facilities and so on?
While all the details have not been worked out, it is anticipated that the final cost will come in at around €62 million. It should be completed by December this year and open by June next year. It is being prepared in the first instance for the Special Olympics, to which I am sure everybody is looking forward. Regarding the issue of how the site can be best accessed, this is a matter which will receive ongoing consideration and has to receive a positive response in due course.
I seek to determine the final resting place of the stadium. Will the Minister be more precise as to who will be the final arbiters in determining the location? Will it be determined in the consultations he proposes to have with the sporting bodies? Will it be determined in the consultations with his colleague, the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, who last week almost achieved the ultimate in sneaking the stadium across the city to a new location? There is no chance of it being located all the way down in County Kerry.
With regard to the aquatic centre, surely it will be for the operator to decide on the entry fee. The operator will run the centre on a commercial basis and will then decide on what fee is appropriate to make a profit. Given the high labour content in the cost of running the centre, a throughput of approximately 3,000 people per day will be required. If those numbers are not realised the operator will have to increase the charges. In the event of the entry fee becoming prohibitive, is the Minister prepared to provide a subvention to ensure that those from the estate mentioned will have access to the pool?
Will the Minister indicate if, when the 50 metre pool in Limerick was being constructed and the Special Olympics was awarded, an assumption was made that the pool in Limerick would be used during the games? Will he also confirm that it was discovered only later that because of the distance from Dublin, the pool in Limerick was not acceptable and that only then was it decided to add a pool to the Campus and Stadium Ireland project?
The Government will decide the location of the stadium, the decision will be a collective one and every member of the Government will support it. As the relevant Minister I will make the relevant proposal after all consultations have been completed. I have already indicated this will happen in the near future.
With regard to the level of entry fees to the aquatic centre, the taxpayers own the centre and it is necessary that there be an extensive throughput of people. For this to happen it is necessary that the entry fees should not be prohibitive. I have already explained that I do not believe in exclusivity.
In response to Deputy Allen, it was not orig inally decided to host the water sports of the Special Olympics in Limerick. The Limerick pool can cater for between 600 and 700 people. It is necessary for the purpose of the games that the teams will not be broken up as that is part of the spirit of the event. It is, therefore, necessary to have the pool located in Dublin. The aquatic centre will endure for future generations, although it is a crucial component of the Special Olympics infrastructure.
Question put and agreed to.
