Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 3 Nov 2005

Vol. 609 No. 2

Order of Business.

Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Mr. McDowell)

It is proposed to take No. 9a, motion re proposed approval by Dáil Éireann of the terms of the World Health Organisation framework convention on tobacco control; No. 9b, motion re the report of the independent commission of inquiry into the murder of Mr. Seamus Ludlow; and No. 1, Criminal Law (Insanity) Bill 2002[Seanad]— Second Stage.

It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders or the order of the Dáil of 2 November 2005, that Nos. 9a and 9b shall be taken before Private Members' business and shall be decided without debate, and that Private Members' business shall be No. 40, motion regarding Irish unity (resumed), to be taken immediately after the Order of Business and to conclude after 90 minutes.

An Ceann Comhairle

There is one proposal to put to the House. Is the proposal for dealing with Nos. 9a and 9b, motion re proposed approval by Dail Éireann of the terms of the World Health Organisation framework convention on tobacco control and motion re report of the independent commission of inquiry into the murder of Mr. Seamus Ludlow, agreed?

Mr. Bruton

Can these motions be taken separately? My party wishes to make comments on both.

An Ceann Comhairle

The proposal is that they be taken without debate. They will be voted on separately.

Mr. Bruton

Will we have an opportunity to comment on both? Our health spokesman, Deputy Twomey, would like to comment on No. 9a and I would like to comment on No. 9b.

An Ceann Comhairle

The question is whether these motions should be taken without debate.

Mr. Bruton

In that event, I wish to comment on both. On No. 9b, what is the reason for the lengthy delay in the production of the report of the independent commission of inquiry into the murder of Mr. Seamus Ludlow? I understand it has been in Government hands for a year. Is there a valid legal reason that the family involved has not been contacted or given access to any of the information in the report prior to its being laid before the Joint Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights? Can the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform give assurances that there are sound legal reasons for this and that there is no intention to keep the family out of the loop?

In regard to 9a, there is a general concern that a serious restructuring seems to be taking place within the Department of Health and Children in terms of accountability to the Dáil. It seems the health promotion function, which was heretofore a key ministerial role, is to be handed over to the HSE where there will be limited accountability to the House. There is genuine concern in the House that we are seeing a demolition——

An Ceann Comhairle

The motion relates to the World Health Organisation.

Mr. Bruton

——of democratic accountability in the health sector.

Mr. Rabbitte

The Taoiseach promised last March that the Seamus Ludlow report would be published within weeks. It seems there were difficulties in this regard, perhaps arising from the advice of the Attorney General in regard to named individuals and so forth. Now that it will be released into the public domain through the Joint Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights, it seems regrettable that the family was not advised of the implications of this and invited to be present for the report's release through the committee. Will the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform initiate contact with the family or its representatives? Mr. Ludlow's family is aggrieved after this long wait that it received no notice of the report's imminent publication.

Mr. Sargent

I regret that these motions will be taken together and that there will be no opportunity for debate. I ask the Government to accede to Members' requests for such a debate as soon as possible. No. 9a, which I called for and am glad is being signed off by the Government, relates to the powerful tobacco industry. Smoking is the leading avoidable cause of heart disease and heart disease is the main cause of death in the country so the issue demands debate.

The Ludlow report equally appears to raise more questions than it answers. Will the Minister agree to a debate on it? The Garda must have the incident fully investigated if we are to ensure confidence in the security forces on both sides of the Border. This is extremely pertinent to the current impasse in the peace process and must be resolved. We call for a debate on, and an investigation of, this issue.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

With regard to the independent commission of inquiry into the murder of Seamus Ludlow, I join my colleagues in expressing concern about the delay in bringing the report forward. However, it was most disturbing to learn from the "Morning Ireland" programme this morning, which featured an interview with Jimmy Sharkey, a nephew of Seamus Ludlow, that the family only learned last night from a member of the media that this matter was being brought before the Dáil today. Indeed, Members of the House only became aware of it last evening. The circulation of the proposition in text form came through after 9 p.m. Explanations are due to the House for this.

There has been gross insensitivity to the family's position in the way this has been brought before the House. Serious issues are addressed by Mr. Justice Barron in the report and they merit address by the Members of the House. It is imperative that, if not now, at some time in the near future the Government agrees to facilitate an opportunity for Members to address this important report. Will the Minister explain why it was handled in this way over the past 24 hours? Will he accede to the request to provide an opportunity for Members to address the issues involved in a substantial debate in this Chamber?

Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Mr. McDowell)

With regard to the report on the murder of Seamus Ludlow, it was tendered to the Taoiseach a considerable time ago——

Mr. J. O’Keeffe

Fourteen months ago.

Mr. McDowell

——but the reason it was not published earlier is that there were complex issues arising from it. One of them, as Deputy Rabbitte correctly surmised, related to identification of certain parties and factual information relating to those parties. Second, there was an audi alteram partem issue. The Government considered that one individual had to be given an opportunity to respond to the matters raised in the report. That was done but it took some time.

It is regrettable that the family of Seamus Ludlow has not been included in the process as openly as one would have wished.

Mr. F. McGrath

Disgraceful.

Mr. McDowell

I made arrangements today for a copy of the report to be sent to them immediately. I have been assured by Deputy Ardagh, who is the chairman of the committee, that he will put the family in the centre of the committee's concerns and will deal with the matter in a way that is fully cognisant of their interest in the matter. As I understand it, the Whips of the various parties agreed last night that this should be dealt with without debate and should be sent to the committee. Some Deputies have asked that it be discussed at some point in the House but that is a matter for the Whips. Let us get it to the committee first and allow the committee to get on with its work.

With regard to the tobacco convention, we face a deadline of 8 November. Today is, effectively, the last occasion on which we can deal with the matter. Again, I understand the Whips agreed to deal with it without debate.

Mr. Neville

The Whips were informed of that.

Mr. Bruton

Factually, the Whips——

An Ceann Comhairle

Are the proposals agreed to?

Mr. Bruton

To be fair to the Whips, a Cheann Comhairle, they were informed that it was proposed to take them without debate. They were not given options.

An Ceann Comhairle

That does not arise. Are the proposals agreed to?

Ms McManus

A Cheann Comhairle——

An Ceann Comhairle

I will put the question. Deputy, there is only provision for one speaker from each party.

Question, "That the proposal for dealing with Nos. 9a and 9b be agreed to" put and declared carried.

Mr. Bruton

I welcome the Minister, Deputy McDowell, to the Chamber. It is almost as rare as a sighting of the brent goose.

Mr. Roche

He is not an endangered species.

Mr. Bruton

The reason the Minister is present is that, unfortunately, the Tánaiste got caught in traffic. It is a rather bad omen on day three of the 21st century transport plan that the Tánaiste cannot get to the Dáil on time. Perhaps the Luas should to be extended to her constituency more speedily.

Yesterday, an interesting report compiled by Deputy Rabbitte was presented by the Committee of Public Accounts. It proposes a new approach to dealing with the Estimates. In that context, when will we see this year's Estimates? Does the Minister agree with the approach proposed, that Members have earlier sight of the Estimates, such as on a date in September, that there should be greater opportunity to evaluate them through the provision of hard technical information on evaluation and options and that the Dáil should have the power to deal with the Estimates in a more coherent manner?

An Ceann Comhairle

The first question is in order but the subsequent questions are more appropriate for the Minister for Finance.

Mr. Bruton

Let us not forget that a transport plan has been launched which contains none of the evaluation the House seeks. If the Minister, Deputy McDowell, were on this side of the House, he would not stand over such a procedure. Would he propose that we have better procedures in the House in future?

Mr. McDowell

It is intended to publish the Estimates on 17 November. With regard to the report of the Committee of Public Accounts, my colleague, the Minister for Finance, announced in budget 2005 that he intended to consider reforms of the budgetary and Estimates process. He extended an invitation to the House to make suggestions as to how such improvements could be made while maintaining the right and duty of the Government to direct and manage the budgetary process. He has been examining proposals in this regard and the report of the Committee of Public Accounts is a welcome contribution to those deliberations.

Mr. Rabbitte

I join in the welcome to the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. The Taoiseach had a bad day yesterday but I did not think it was sufficiently bad to put the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform in charge, with all that it might imply.

Mr. Roche

It could be worse, Deputy. It could be you.

Mr. McDowell

That would be much worse.

Mr. Rabbitte

It is a bad omen that the Tánaiste is caught in traffic. I am reminded of the fact that she was helicoptered to a famous opening in north Leitrim not long ago and I am disappointed that the same mode of transport is not available this morning.

Mr. S. Power

Declan Bree was looking for her.

Mr. Rabbitte

I do not know why the Fianna Fáil benches are so happy behind the Minister, Deputy McDowell, when they are so glum behind the Taoiseach.

Mr. Roche

The Deputy would be better off watching his own back.

An Ceann Comhairle

Has Deputy Rabbitte a question that is appropriate to the Order of Business?

Mr. Rabbitte

Ipsis hibernicis hiberniores. When will the Abbotstown Bill be brought before the House and will it have the Minister’s full support?

Mr. McDowell

It is due this session.

Mr. Sargent

I wish to take the opportunity of the Minister's presence and the fact that he was previously Attorney General to inquire about the Costello report of 15 years ago, which gave rise to the charities regulation Bill. This legislation is still pending but there is no indication of its publication. Can he throw some light on when we can expect to see that legislation, given that 15 years is a long time, even in politics?

Mr. McDowell

It is not possible to say at this stage when that Bill will be produced. It is substantial in size. It will involve major reform of the statute law and restatement, and also major policy reforms.

Mr. Sargent

Will it ever be produced?

Mr. McDowell

It is being worked on in the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs and I am not in a position to give a firm date for its publication.

Mr. J. O’Keeffe

Can I raise a hoary old chestnut which has been around since the Government was formed eight years ago, namely the Defamation Bill and the related issue of a press council? The publication date has been put back again, into next year, in the latest legislative programme. Can we get a serious commitment as to what exactly is happening? Bearing in mind that I seem to recollect the Minister, in Opposition about ten years ago, producing a Private Members' Bill on this issue, will there be any action on this and when?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Minister, on the legislation.

Mr. McDowell

It is a priority of mine and will be published in early 2006.

Mr. McCormack

Will it be before or after the election?

Mr. McDowell

As regards the Private Members' Bill mentioned by Deputy O'Keeffe, I remember his then leader, former Deputy John Bruton, informing the House that it was not a priority for him.

Mr. J. O’Keeffe

A priority, ten years later.

Ms Burton

Is the fact that Abbotstown is specifically included on the new transport map, although in a rather odd location——

An Ceann Comhairle

It has already been dealt with by your leader, Deputy Rabbitte. I call Deputy Ó Caoláin.

Ms Burton

On the Bill, will the Taoiseach, when he comes to Dublin West on Monday, grant land for the hospice?

An Ceann Comhairle

It does not arise on the Order of Business. I call Deputy Ó Caoláin.

Ms Burton

A hospice has been promised at Abbotstown. I want to know if the Bill will include that.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Bill has already been before the House this morning on the Order of Business.

Ms Burton

Abbotstown has already moved on this map by 20 miles.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Burton, you are being disorderly.

Mr. Rabbitte

That is a virtual Bill.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

I have two questions for the Minister. Have the terms of reference for the inquiry into the tragic death of Mr. Patrick Walsh been agreed and will they be published?

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy, it does not arise on the Order of Business. I call Deputy Durkan.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

My second question relates to a Bill that was promised for publication in early 2006 in the previous programme but now appears for late 2006. Can the Minister confirm whether the Ombudsman (Amendment) Bill will be published in 2006 and is there any explanation for the ongoing delay?

Mr. McDowell

The Bill will be published in late 2006.

Mr. McCormack

Will it be before or after the election?

Mr. Durkan

I wonder if I could ask the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform whether there is any update, as promised last night in the Adjournment debate, on the dispute in An Post and——

An Ceann Comhairle

It does not arise on the Order of Business. There are other ways of raising that. As you correctly stated, it was discussed on the Adjournment.

Mr. Durkan

——would he convey it to the House as soon as possible.

On promised legislation, and in view of developments taking place in the area of telecommunications, with takeovers already done and intended, could the Electronic Communications Bill be expedited and brought before the House as quickly as possible in order to procure the necessary debate?

How soon can the Pharmacy (No. 1) Bill, which affects the running of pharmacies by people who have not qualified in this country, be brought before the House?

I also wish to raise the condensation Bill, otherwise known as the business improvements districts Bill, with a view to demisting and demystifying the area surrounding the electronic voting system. Those are all important at present.

Mr. McDowell

The Electronic Communications Bill will be published in 2006 and the Pharmacy (No. 1) Bill will be published in 2006. The BIDs legislation is due next year as well and it has nothing to do with electronic voting.

Mr. Durkan

We will rename it the condensation Bill.

Mr. Sherlock

When is it proposed to restore the Ground Rents Bill? Will the Minister also tell us about the High Court issue which resulted in the Bill being withdrawn in the first instance?

Mr. McDowell

This Bill is not proceeding at present because an important decision which is expected from the Supreme Court may have implications, one way or the other, for the viability of the Bill.

Mr. J. Higgins

I would say the corncrake rather than the brent goose. The difference is we would like to hear more from the corncrake.

An Ceann Comhairle

Do you have a question appropriate to the Order of Business?

Mr. J. Higgins

Yes. It is clear from what the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government stated yesterday in respect of the issue that Deputy Murphy and I have been raising here, that legislation is needed to void estate management company contracts whereby young homeowners are forced into paying for services which local authorities supply in most other estates. Can I ask the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform when we might see such legislation, which is quite urgent considering that people are being dragged to court?

An Ceann Comhairle

Is legislation promised?

Mr. McDowell

No legislation is promised.

Mr. J. Higgins

How will this mess be resolved?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy knows the ways of raising it, namely through a question to the Minister or whatever.

Mr. J. Higgins

We have been raising it.

Ms Burton

The Minister, Deputy Roche, was on the radio yesterday.

Mr. Stagg

On a point of order, the Minister made a public statement outside the House that legislation was required. That is promised legislation and, according to the Standing Order of the House, the Minister should respond in this House to questions on it.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is legislation promised?

Mr. McDowell

No.

An Ceann Comhairle

No legislation is promised.

Mr. Stagg

He did promise it. Either that or he was telling lies on the radio then. He would want to make sure, one way or the other, which side he is on.

Mr. J. O’Keeffe

He was bluffing.

Mr. Stagg

Was he telling lies on the radio? That is a question for him.

An Ceann Comhairle

If the Deputy is not satisfied with the answer he knows how to deal with it. A question to the Minister would be the appropriate way but we cannot have a debate on it on the Order of Business.

Mr. Stagg

The Minister should tell us was he telling lies on the radio then.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Crawford has been waiting patiently to ask a question appropriate to the Order of Business.

Mr. Crawford

These three items are appropriate.

Ms Burton

Let the Minister make a personal statement.

Mr. McCormack

Which story do we believe?

An Ceann Comhairle

Allow your colleague, please.

Mr. Crawford

In light of the differential in fines being handed down by different judges, when will the fines Bill come before the House? On a related matter, when will the enforcement of fines Bill be brought before this House? In light of the power the Medical Council and the Royal College of Surgeons have to close hospitals and do all sorts of things, when will the medical practitioners Bill be brought before the House so that at least we will have a chance of discussing, or changing, the powers they have?

Mr. McDowell

It is not possible to give a date for the fines Bill. The medical practitioners Bill will be published in mid 2006.

I want to say, on behalf of my colleague, Deputy Roche, that he has not misled anybody. What he stated on radio was that if legislation was required, he would bring it in. Therefore, I ask Deputy Stagg to withdraw the statement that Deputy Roche was lying, either then or now.

Mr. Stagg

Shall I tell the editor of the Evening Herald as well?

Mr. Roche

Deputy Stagg should withdraw the comment.

Mr. Stagg

Deputy Roche was bluffing like he always is.

(Interruptions).

Mr. Roche

Deputy Stagg should withdraw the comment. He is in control of the council in Kildare. One should judge what Labour is doing in County Kildare.

Mr. Stagg

Deputy Roche should not be telling me that.

Mr. McDowell

It is not possible to state at this stage when the enforcement of fines Bill will be published.

Mr. Stagg

Labour councillors——

An Ceann Comhairle

Allow Deputy Rabbitte without interruption.

Mr. Stagg

Deputy Roche should not be telling more lies now.

Mr. Roche

Deputy Stagg would have kept his mouth shut about it if it were not for Deputy Murphy.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Stagg, withdraw the word lie.

Mr. Stagg

It is withdrawn. Deputy Roche is misleading the House again.

Mr. J. Higgins

They should not play games with this. People are in court next week over this, for services that the local authority should provide.

Mr. Roche

I agree with Deputy Higgins.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Higgins, Deputy Rabbitte has been called. I ask Ministers not to allow themselves to be provoked and to allow Deputy Rabbitte without interruption.

Mr. J. Higgins

Excuse me, it is us who are being provoked, not them.

An Ceann Comhairle

I ask Deputy Higgins to resume his seat.

Mr. Rabbitte

On a number of occasions the Government has promised regulations to provide for a code of conduct for senior public servants leaving the employ of the State. Following a second county manager taking up a position with a prominent developer immediately after retiring, can I ask the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform if the code of conduct is imminent, prepared or likely to be brought before the House soon?

Mr. Ring

They are being given money as a reward but the Government will not tell us how much they are being given.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should allow——

Mr. Ring

I have gone to the Minister, the Department and the Government. The Minister should tell us what they are getting as rewards. It should not be hidden behind closed doors. Our expenses are open so their expenses should be open.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Ring——

Mr. Ring

Why are county managers and officials protected by the State?

An Ceann Comhairle

To be fair to Deputy Rabbitte, he submitted his question and was called in order. He is entitled to hear the answer.

Mr. Ring

The Government is at it again, protecting the county managers and the officials.

An Ceann Comhairle

I ask the Deputy to be quiet.

Mr. Ring

They are rewarded with taxpayers' money but the Government will not tell us what they are giving them.

Mr. C. Lenihan

We will have to get an injunction against the Deputy.

Mr. McDowell

Deputy Rabbitte puts it far less eloquently than Deputy Ring.

Mr. Ring

He is not as forceful.

Mr. McDowell

Currently, local authority officials are subject to a code of conduct under the Local Government Act 2001.

Mr. McHugh

They should be.

Mr. McDowell

The code includes disclosure requirements concerning employment outside the local government sector and addresses situations concerning conflict of personal and public interests. The issue of senior local government officials accepting outside appointments or consultancies following resignation or retirement is not subject to the present code. I understand, however, that in regard to county and city managers, the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government is in discussion with the managers' association regarding the matter——

Mr. Stagg

For what?

Mr. McDowell

——and that the suggestions in the Standards in Public Office Commission's 2004 annual report are also being considered fully.

Mr. McHugh

They make the rules for themselves.

Mr. Costello

In the context of a code of conduct, when does the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform propose to bring forward the judicial ethics legislation?

Mr. McDowell

The policy decisions on that legislation are well advanced in my Department. I am currently in a process of consulting with the Judiciary. When that process is complete, I will be in a position to give a firm date for publication.

Mr. Costello

Will it be this year?

Mr. M. Higgins

Will the Minister indicate the current position in regard to the promised legislation establishing TG4 on an autonomous basis? Has the Government retreated from its commitment to this legislation or will it be part of the broadcasting authority of Ireland Bill, which is listed with proposed legislation? When will the broadcasting authority of Ireland Bill be brought before the House?

Mr. McDowell

The broadcasting authority of Ireland Bill will be published next year. Whether the particular issue raised by the Deputy will be included in it has not yet been decided.

An Ceann Comhairle

I call Deputy Durkan on a point of order.

Mr. M. Higgins

On a point of order, I asked two questions. The Government is committed separately to introducing legislation to establish the autonomy of TG4. What is the position in regard to that legislation? Is it being prepared or has it been withdrawn? I accept the broadcasting authority of Ireland Bill will probably not be seen until the end of 2006, if at all. What is the status of the commitment of the Government, as published, to the autonomy of TG4?

Mr. McDowell

As I said, the status of TG4 is a matter which may or may not be dealt with in the context of the broadcasting Bill. We expect to publish that Bill in 2006.

Mr. M. Higgins

The commitment was to publish legislation.

An Ceann Comhairle

I suggest the Deputy submits a question to the Minister on the matter. I call Deputy Durkan on a point of order.

Mr. M. Higgins

There is no question to ask.

Mr. Durkan

Last week, the Ceann Comhairle kindly allowed a question as to whether the Tánaiste would soon approve the funding for the implementation of the final phase of the Naas Hospital development plan. The reply I received was that the matter had been referred to the Health Service Executive.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is not a point of order. I call Deputy Cowley.

Mr. Durkan

It is a point of order.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy has already made a very long contribution.

Mr. Durkan

The question is who determines policy. Does the Minister approve——

Dr. Cowley

A Cheann Comhairle——

Mr. Ring

I want to ask a question also. I put up my hand. I indicated before the Deputy came into the House.

An Ceann Comhairle

I intend to call Deputy Ring a second time this morning. For now, I call Deputy Cowley.

Mr. Durkan

Does the Minister or the Health Service Executive allocate the budget?

An Ceann Comhairle

That is not a point of order.

Mr. Durkan

Who is in control?

An Ceann Comhairle

I call Deputy Cowley.

Mr. Durkan

The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform would know. He is friendly with the Tánaiste. Surely he would know. He should stand up and be counted. We should not have this dodging and diving.

Dr. Cowley

In view of the €200 million earmarked for transport in the BMW region and the omission of the Mayo-Sligo end of the western rail corridor from any possibility of funding——

Mr. Kelly

That is not correct.

Dr. Cowley

——is legislation proposed for balanced regional development under the infrastructure Bill?

An Ceann Comhairle

To what legislation is the Deputy referring?

Dr. Cowley

With regard to promised legislation, I was concerned to hear there will be no move towards introducing an office for public safety to deal with overall public safety.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is legislation promised?

Mr. McDowell

No.

An Ceann Comhairle

No legislation is promised. I call Deputy Ring.

Mr. Ring

A Cheann Comhairle——

An Ceann Comhairle

I thought the Deputy had made his contribution earlier.

Mr. Ring

I make many contributions in the House. The one I will make now is close to the heart of the Cheann Comhairle and that of Deputy Cowley. I had hoped the Tánaiste and Minister for Health and Children would be present because my question relates to doctor only medical cards. Is the Minister aware——

An Ceann Comhairle

That does not arise on the Order of Business. The Deputy should submit a question.

Mr. Ring

Let me finish.

An Ceann Comhairle

I call No. 9a, motion re——

Mr. Ring

This is a very important issue. Community welfare officers will not process the doctor only medical card because their unions have instructed them not to do so.

An Ceann Comhairle

I call No. 9a, motion re proposed approval of Dáil Éireann of the terms of the World Health Organisation framework convention on tobacco control, without debate.

Mr. Ring

The doctors have got their share. Now, the community welfare officers are looking for their share. What will the Government do about it?