Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 22 Oct 2008

Vol. 664 No. 4

Leaders’ Questions.

Deputy Enda Kenny

In so far as the education sector is concerned, the programme for Government from 2002 states:

We will continue to reduce the pupil: teacher ratio in our schools. Over the next five years we will progressively introduce maximum class guidelines which will ensure that the average size of classes for children under 9 will be below the international best practice guideline of 20:1.

Next year, 100,000 pupils will be in classes of over 30 and more than 450,000 primary school children will be in classes of more than 20. My understanding is that primary and secondary schools submitted their enrolment figures to the Department on 20 September. In his replies from China, the Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Batt O'Keeffe, stated there will be 200 job losses each in the primary and secondary sectors. I seek a commitment from the Tánaiste that the Government will publish the enrolment figures within the next 48 hours to verify who is telling the truth in this regard——

Deputy Brian Hayes

Hear, hear.

Deputy Enda Kenny

——and what will be the scale of cutbacks in the teaching sector.

Education is the future and if the State or the Government are not in a position to provide an educational system for the primary and secondary school children of the nation, we have failed in that regard. These are the people who will be obliged to compete with their international peers from the new European counties, the far eastern countries and throughout the world. As Ireland will not have as many manufacturing jobs as it had previously, we must be able to adapt, be flexible and deal with the future. In this budget, which now is only a discussion document that is open to negotiation at all turns of the road, the Government deliberately went the other way, although it had alternatives. Will the Government publish the enrolment figures for the country's schools submitted to it on 30 September in order that Members can verify who is telling the truth? Second, what savings are projected by the Government as a result of increasing the pupil-teacher ratio figures?

The Tánaiste

First, the Department of Education and Science's budget, which in 2009 will be slightly more than €9.6 billion, represents an increase of €302 million.

Deputy Brian Hayes

That is not the question.

The Tánaiste

Overall, that budget will comprise an increase of 3.2% over the 2008 figures.

Deputy Brian Hayes

Fascinating.

The Tánaiste

The amount of spending on education has been trebled since 1997.

Deputy Brian Hayes

What is the answer to the question?

Deputy Pádraic McCormack

What is the answer?

The Tánaiste

I will revert to the Ceann Comhairle.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Tánaiste, without interruption.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

The league of youth.

The Tánaiste

On the issue of primary school staffing, Members will have heard the Minister for Education and Science this morning asking, in the context of the economic climate in which we are working at present, for partnership in the process with the teacher unions and the teachers.

Deputy Michael Creed

What about the students?

The Tánaiste

That is the most appropriate framework in which we can deal with this temporary impasse in the context of overall expenditure on education.

As a former primary school teacher, the Leader of the Opposition is aware——

Deputy Enda Kenny

Of considerable note, I might add.

The Tánaiste

Yes, of note.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

Does he have a pension?

Deputy Willie O’Dea

He is a legend in his own mind.

Deputy Finian McGrath

Has he got a pension?

The Tánaiste

As the daughter of a national school teacher with a family history of national school teaching, I would not take away from that. Equally, I would not take away from him being a Mayo man.

The staffing schedule and applications will be based on the figures at the end of September. The figure of approximately 200 teachers each in the primary and secondary sectors is based on the overall allocation this year. The figures from Members opposite do not take into consideration the increases, changes and permutations there always are within the available staffing schedules.

Deputy Pádraic McCormack

There will be 200 losses in Galway alone.

Deputy Brian Hayes

Will there be 1,000 losses nationwide?

The Tánaiste

The Deputy asked a question about availability.

Deputy Pádraic McCormack

There will be 200 losses in Galway alone.

The Tánaiste

I am unsure whether the Department of Education and Science has completed its analysis.

Deputy Emmet Stagg

Members should be provided with a translation service.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

Deputy Stagg has been around here for long enough.

The Tánaiste

To advise the schools in question of the changes in the staffing schedule, that circular usually is not available until around Easter time. However, if the leader of the Opposition wishes to spend his time looking at how the Government intends to issue a circular arising from this discussion, I am sure he can be facilitated.

Deputy Kathleen Lynch

Teachers would like to know whether they are being fired.

The Tánaiste

However, as he is aware, the pupil-teacher ratio contains flexibilities that always have been there——

Deputy Brian Hayes

No there are not.

The Tánaiste

——dependent on, for example——

Deputy Brian Hayes

The Tánaiste is waffling.

Deputy Damien English

Not for pupil-teacher ratios.

An Ceann Comhairle

Please allow the Tánaiste to finish.

The Tánaiste

For example, in the primary system there is a redeployment schedule that is based on the diocesan framework.

A Deputy

Blame the bishops.

The Tánaiste

Unfortunately, that situation does not obtain in some secondary schools. However, the Government hopes that in the context of partnership, as the Minister for Education and Science has noted, this issue also can be dealt with.

Deputy Brian Hayes

I would not bet on it.

Deputy Enda Kenny

The Tánaiste gets two out of ten for that answer.

The Tánaiste

I did not know I was sitting an examination.

Deputy Enda Kenny

She was asked two questions but answered neither. The first question was whether the Government will publish the enrolment figures submitted to the Department of Education on 30 September within the next 48 hours in order that Members can verify what the level of job losses will be.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

Hear, hear.

Deputy Enda Kenny

That is a simple question.

Deputy Bernard Allen

Yes or no.

Deputy Enda Kenny

Will the Government publish it?

A Deputy

The Tánaiste should make a call to China.

Deputy Enda Kenny

Second, what savings are projected by the Department of Education and Science by increasing the pupil-teacher ratio? I wish to ask a couple more questions. On what figures did the Minister for Education and Science base his assessment? He stated there will be 200 job losses each in the primary and secondary sectors. On what basis did he arrive at that figure?

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

The lotto.

Deputy Enda Kenny

Teachers from around the country have been in contact with me. From China, the Minister is seeking a partnership with the teachers' unions. Everybody recognises the economic disaster this Government has brought down on the country, of which pay freezes are an element. A pay freeze on those earning above €50,000 within the teaching sector would save in the region of €128 million, thereby allowing the continuation of the current pupil-teacher ratio, the appointment of language support teachers and resource teachers, cover for sick leave and the visits to Dáil Éireann and the sporting activities which are so important to the lives of children all over the country. Has the Government sought a partnership with teachers' unions in this matter?

This morning, the Minister, Deputy Batt O'Keeffe, said from Shanghai——

Deputy Kathleen Lynch

In a letter from Shanghai.

Deputy Enda Kenny

——that the reversal of the programme for Government in so far as the pupil-teacher ratio is concerned will be rescinded in two years time.

Deputy Dinny McGinley

We heard that before.

Deputy Enda Kenny

This is a two year proposal. Has the Government factored a reversal of this decision into its programme for spending for 2011? The budgetary statement for 2011 proposes a reduction in borrowing to 2.9% of GDP. Clearly the budget introduced last week envisaged the continuation of these cuts beyond that date. Will the reversal of these cuts in two years time be factored into the Estimates for 2011? These questions require "Yes" or "No" answers, so let us see how the Tánaiste performs this time.

Deputy Michael Creed

We need a tutorial.

The Tánaiste

Given the seriousness of the issue, I will not rise to a retort.

Deputy Shane McEntee

Just answer the question.

Deputy John Deasy

Get someone else to answer.

Deputy Brian Hayes

It is under "E" for "education".

The Tánaiste

On the staffing schedule, there will be a realisation of savings worth €18 million in 2009 and €96 million in a full year. The issue the Minister described as the suspension of a payment refers to uncertified sick leave and absences on school business. This reverts to the 2003 agreement. However, it does not take from another aspect of supervision pay, namely, an annual payment of €1,789 in return for which 37 hours of substitution or supervision is provided each year.

Deputy Brian Hayes

That is an agreement which the Government is breaking.

Deputy Pádraic McCormack

It is offering a rain check.

The Tánaiste

To clarify the matter, that will be retained. The other aspects will revert to the 2003 process.

Deputy Brian Hayes

Breaking an agreement.

The Tánaiste

To clarify, it is a suspension which will revert back, I am sure, with the advent of changed circumstances.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

That is great comfort.

The Tánaiste

It is important to have due regard for the quality of teaching and education in this country——

Deputy Kathleen Lynch

Bigger classes are better.

The Tánaiste

——and the capacity of our teachers to teach. That has not been mooted by any Member of the Opposition. On the issue of staffing levels, the Leader of the Opposition has requested the staffing schedule.

Deputy Brian Hayes

We know that.

The Tánaiste

From what I can ascertain, the circular will not have been finalised——

Deputy Michael D. Higgins

Why not?

The Tánaiste

——because the figures are being compiled.

Deputy Brian Hayes

We are seeking the school enrolment figures. We know what the schedule is.

An Ceann Comhairle

Allow the Tánaiste to finish.

Deputy Brian Hayes

The ratio is 28:1. We know that.

The Tánaiste

As a practising politician, the Leader of the Opposition will realise these matters have to be checked and rechecked.

Deputy Tom Hayes

Why did the Government not check the budget? The Minister for Transport, Deputy Dempsey, could have done it.

Deputy Brian Hayes

It is 28:1.

Deputy Noel Dempsey

There are a number of contenders for leadership on the Opposition benches.

Deputy Brian Hayes

It is another U-turn.

The Tánaiste

If the Leader of the Opposition wishes to spend his time preparing the staffing schedule for the Department of Education and Science, I am sure we can facilitate him.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

Rubbish.

Deputy Brian Hayes

That is the Government's job.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

The Deputy is reverting to type.

The Tánaiste

At this moment in time, it is not in the better interest of the primary schools in respect of which he asked this question.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

League of youth.

The Tánaiste

I was asked where the figures were. I am basing my response on the figure of 200 teachers prepared by the Department in the context of the overall increase in primary school enrolment and whatever cross cutting has to be done for special needs, etc. I can certainly ask the Department to forward the staffing schedule to the Leader of the Opposition when it is ready.

Deputy Pádraic McCormack

Next year.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

Every Member of the House will have the opportunity of showing where he or she stands on the education cuts and increases in class sizes when the Labour Party tables a Private Members' motion on the issue next Tuesday.

I want to pursue with the Tánaiste some of the matters I raised yesterday with the Taoiseach in regard to medical cards for the over 70s. I want her to answer two questions which the Taoiseach did not address. First, is it the case that the Minister for Health and Children will be able to change the income limits which were announced yesterday in respect of medical cards for the over 70s without coming back to the House? Second, is the Government going to index-link these income limits?

I ask the Tánaiste the legal position on medical card entitlements for the over 70s. I put it to her that the statement made yesterday by the Taoiseach and the Minister for Health and Children does not change the legal entitlement of people who are over 70 to continue to hold a medical card. I will explain. The Health (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2001 gives the over 70s an automatic legal entitlement to medical cards. Yesterday the Government stated its intention to repeal that section of the Act. Repealing the 2001 Act will change the position for those who are not yet 70 but it will not change the legal entitlement to hold a medical card for those who are currently over 70 because the Interpretation Act 2005 states:

Where an enactment is repealed, the repeal does not—

[. . .](c) affect any right, privilege, obligation or liability acquired, accrued or incurred under the enactment,

In other words, the repeal of the 2001 Act will not change the legal entitlement for people who are currently over 70 to continue to hold the medical card. The only way that can be done is by bringing in a legislative measure to take the medical card off them.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

Try that.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

Frankly, if the Tánaiste is having problems now in getting her backbenchers to vote for the repeal of the 2001 Act, let us see how they face up to a legislative measure that takes the medical card off the people who currently have a legal entitlement to it.

Deputy Pádraic McCormack

Deputy White will not go for it.

Deputy Olivia Mitchell

Back to the drawing board.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

Given that people who are over 70 continue to have a legal right to hold medical cards and given the made-up nature of the figures on which yesterday's announcement was based, cannot the Government make a decision before the pensioners assemble on Molesworth Street later this morning to do the decent thing and leave them with their medical cards?

Deputies

Hear, hear.

Deputy Noel Dempsey

He is looking for socialism.

Deputy Michael Creed

Ask Joe Behan about that.

Deputy Olivia Mitchell

The Minister did not say that in 2001.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

That is all we can expect of the Members opposite.

Deputy Michael Creed

Government Members are reverting to type.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

It is a legal view.

Deputy Michael Creed

Bully boy.

The Tánaiste

If the Labour Party wishes to continue muddying the waters on this issue, that is a matter for itself. However, it is the intention of the Government to repeal the Act. It is also the intention of this Government to introduce the income thresholds in other legislation. Therefore, it is appropriate to say that the Government's intention is to move with the new income thresholds of €700 and €1,400, respectively, for those over 70 with eligibility entitlements.

Deputy Emmet Stagg

What about the following year?

The Tánaiste

It is the Government's intention that the top 5% of earners would stay outside that remit. On the basis of legal advice to the Minister for Health and Children, this is the methodology by which this process can continue and come before the House. This is the legislative measure that will enact the Government's decision to support those over 70 within the income thresholds of €700 and €1,400.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

The Tánaiste did not answer the first two questions I asked her, that is whether it is the position that the Minister can change the income limits at the stroke of a pen after 1 January, when these measures will be enacted. Will the Government index-link the new income limits? I would like an answer to those questions and I understand other Members seek answers to those questions before voting on the Fine Gael motion later this evening.

The Tánaiste did not answer my question on the legal position regarding those over 70. It is perfectly clear that repealing the Act of 2001 does not remove the legal entitlement to hold a medical card of those who have already reached the age of 70. Can the Tánaiste clarify the position? Is it the Government's position that it intends to repeal the Health (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2001, which will change the position for those under 70 but not for those over 70? Is it the intention to bring in legislation that expressly provides for taking back the medical card from those who hold them? After a number of interviews on radio and television by the Taoiseach and the press conference yesterday, we are entitled to know what the Government intends, if the Government knows what it intends to do. We need clarity on the three simple questions I asked. Can the Minister change the income limits? Will she index-link the income limits? Is there a legal basis for taking back the entitlement from those who got the entitlement under the Health (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act?

The Tánaiste

I assure people that whatever is required to ensure that no more than 5% are outside the remit is the intention of the Government.

A Deputy

Does Deputy Noel O'Flynn know that?

The Tánaiste

All matters can be dealt with in the context of the legislation.

Deputy Michael Creed

The Tánaiste is making it up as she goes along.

The Tánaiste

The legality of any legislation, changes to it and requirements within this House, are done with the best legal advice from the Attorney General. The Minister for Health and Children has been advised by the Attorney General in the context of the legislative framework in which she will introduce this new scheme.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

The Tánaiste does not know.

The Tánaiste

There will be an opportunity to discuss these issues once the legislation has been brought before the House.

Deputy James Reilly

Will the Tánaiste not confirm the assertion of her Minister of State on "Prime Time" that this will be index-linked?

The Tánaiste

Deputy Reilly is not the man to be talking about that.

Deputy James Reilly

Is that the Tánaiste's answer? She left her Minister of State out to dry.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

How much does Deputy Reilly get from the GMS scheme?