Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 24 Mar 2009

Vol. 678 No. 2

Order of Business.

The Taoiseach

It is proposed to take No. 8, motion re referral to joint committee of proposed approval by Dáil Éireann of the Horse and Greyhound Racing Fund Regulations 2009, and No. 12, pre-budget statements.

It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that No. 8 shall be decided without debate; and the proceedings on No. 12 shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at 7 p.m. tomorrow and the following arrangements shall apply: the statements of a Minister or Minister of State and of the main spokespersons for the Fine Gael Party, the Labour Party and Sinn Féin, who shall be called upon in that order, shall not exceed 15 minutes in each case, the statement of each other Member called upon shall not exceed ten minutes in each case, Members may share time and a Minister or Minister of State shall be called upon to make a statement in reply which shall not exceed 20 minutes.

Private Members' business shall be No. 49, motion re Oireachtas reform.

An Ceann Comhairle

There are two proposals to put to the House. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 8 without debate agreed to?

Deputy Enda Kenny

I realise the importance of this matter. Will the regulations be referred back to the House by the committee?

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

At the next general election.

The Taoiseach

On 9 April.

Deputy Seán Barrett

On a point of clarification——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy will have to raise this on the Order of Business. Only one spokesperson can contribute on behalf of each party. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 8 agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 12 agreed? Agreed.

Deputy Enda Kenny

Will the Taoiseach clarify the figure in respect of the deficit? Is it €4.5 billion, €5 billion or €6 billion?

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot go into that now.

Deputy Paul Kehoe

We have to go into it.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy will have to go into it in another way. There is a debate later. We cannot have a discussion on it now.

Deputy Paul Kehoe

We could treat all business like that.

An Ceann Comhairle

I have no choice under Standing Orders. I cannot do anything about it.

Deputy Enda Kenny

The Taoiseach is a well qualified legal person.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am well aware of that, but the facts of the matter are that I have to obey the Standing Orders of the House.

Deputy Enda Kenny

He is not going to go into court and take a case unless he knows the facts. We have not been given any facts, despite the fact that——

An Ceann Comhairle

I am not going into that now. In any event, there is a debate later.

Deputy Enda Kenny

In respect of the budget to be brought in on 7 April, is it intended that the Government will make available to Opposition parties for their consideration the matters that have been discussed by Government and those sent to it by every Department and an bord snip nua? How, in the name of high heaven, is anybody on the Opposition benches expected to make any contribution of validity when we are not even being given the facts the Government is considering and will eventually decide on before 7 April? It is only appropriate that this should apply. Will the Taoiseach respond to the queries of Opposition parties to deal with that matter?

An Ceann Comhairle

Arrangements for the budget are in order.

The Taoiseach

The Minister and Department of Finance have been available to Opposition parties that have any requirement to have proposals costed. There has been unprecedented access to information and briefing in advance of this budget. At the start of the month, officials of the Department, at the request of the Minister, gave Opposition spokespeople a thorough briefing of the broad budgetary parameters. The Minister has also made the Department available to the Opposition for confidential costings of proposals. I do not know the extent to which parties have taken up that facility because it is confidential, but this kind of facility has never been offered to an Opposition outside of election time.

Deputies Burton and Gilmore have sought information on the numbers on which the budget will be based. The Cabinet is deliberating on those and will make its judgment based on advice about their economic impact in the coming days. It is for Government to come to an informed decision on these matters and to announce them at budget time. It is my understanding that officials continue to be available to the Opposition for further briefings, subject to the requirement to maintain Cabinet confidentiality.

It is the responsibility of the Government to draw up the budget but we have done everything possible to ensure the Opposition has the information it requires to make constructive suggestions and constructive criticism. There is a pre-budget debate in the House today and tomorrow and the Government is open to considering all constructive proposals to get us through this economic crisis.

Deputy Enda Kenny

Government Members will not say anything in the pre-budget debate because they cannot.

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot pre-empt the debate.

Deputy Enda Kenny

I am telling the Ceann Comhairle what will happen.

An Ceann Comhairle

Prophecies are not allowed on the Order of Business.

Deputy Enda Kenny

The Ceann Comhairle was very welcoming in Cahirciveen when I met him there last Thursday.

An Ceann Comhairle

I know I was, but I will not go into this now. The Deputy has had a run at it.

Deputy Enda Kenny

As the senior political figure in the constituency, the Ceann Comhairle was welcoming and I do not want him to take it out on me now.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am not taking anything out on the Deputy. I am merely implementing Standing Orders, like I do every day.

Deputy Enda Kenny

Government Members will not say anything during the debate because they cannot. I do not want to know now the Cabinet's decisions but I would like to know the range of options being considered. Opposition parties are expected to make contributions about this budget, which the Government parties have been forced to bring in because of their mismanagement of the economy——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Taoiseach has answered the Deputy's question.

Deputy Enda Kenny

——and we still have no idea of what has been presented by the Departments of Social and Family Affairs, Arts, Sport and Tourism or Transport and so on, nor do we have any evidence of what has been presented by Mr. McCarthy's an bord snip nua. If we obtain all that information, at least the Opposition parties, for what it is worth, could say, "I think these are valid suggestions", irrespective of what the Government chooses from the list.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Taoiseach has answered that question.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

It is pretty clear from the Taoiseach's reply to Deputy Kenny that the Government's offer to make information available to the Opposition parties is not genuine. This is not a genuine involvement of the Opposition in the budgetary decision process. The Taoiseach said that the Government will make decisions and announce them on budget day. That is business as usual, the Government presenting it to us as a fait accompli. The Opposition parties are not genuinely involved in the exercise. The information available to us is no more than we would be able to get by the use of good parliamentary questions. This exercise of opening the doors to the Opposition, mar dhea, is a political smokescreen while the Government goes on with the job of making decisions.

An Ceann Comhairle

We are on the Order of Business. If the Deputy has a question about budgetary arrangements would he please put it?

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

I will ask one question.

An Ceann Comhairle

I have to move along.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

The Government said that it would produce a revised volume of departmental Estimates in March. Is that still the intention and when will we receive it?

The Taoiseach

No. When I mentioned that we were bringing in a supplementary budget I said that the presentation of a revised Estimate in March would not apply since we were preparing for a supplementary budget in April. Revised Estimate volumes will arise out of that process rather than coming separately in March. The commitment to provide the revised Estimates volume in March was based on the fact that we had completed the budgetary process at the end of last year.

I do not accept Deputy Gilmore's characterisation of the preparedness of the Minister, and the Department, to be as co-operative as possible, consistent with his being able to discharge his duty to bring forward a budget as he is constitutionally required to do. The Department's facilities and resources, and the Minister, are continually available to assist spokespersons so that we can have——

Deputy Richard Bruton

The Taoiseach has not even acknowledged my letter.

The Taoiseach

——as informed a discussion on this matter as possible. Just as the Opposition has a job to do so does the Government, within a specific time. It was never suggested that the Opposition was to write the budget any more than that the Government should close its mind to any Opposition proposals. That is the basis for a pre-budget debate which might be of assistance if people are prepared to take it on board in that light. I am sure contributions will be made in the next two days which could well be helpful. I hope that will be the case. We cannot interchange our respective responsibilities.

Deputy Seán Barrett

Will the horse and greyhound racing fund come back to the House and will we have an opportunity to discuss it? Large sums of money are being lost to the industry as a result of the growth in Internet betting. That is why I would like it to be debated here. What steps will be taken to deal with this loss? I agree with the sentiments of the motion but I seek an increase in the revenue and clarification for those who seem to think that money provided for horse and greyhound racing is a grant. It is not a grant and does not affect other grants. It is a levy imposed on bookmakers, as it should be. Where and when will we take money from Internet betting which is growing considerably at the expense of the off-course bookmakers?

An Ceann Comhairle

Will the Taoiseach say whether this matter will come back before the House?

The Taoiseach

It is for the Whips to arrange a debate on this or any other matter. I understand that the matter will return to the House on 9 April. It is for the Whips to decide in the aftermath of the budget, whether that will be in the context of the budget debate or separately.

Deputy Emmet Stagg

The Whips had no say in this debate.

The Taoiseach

I understand that.

Deputy Emmet Stagg

It was shoved down our necks.

The Taoiseach

I was about to come to the point that this will be based on——

Deputy Emmet Stagg

A different schedule was arranged.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should allow the Taoiseach to finish speaking.

The Taoiseach

It is okay.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Taoiseach will not continue.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

I was called upon to go into court in the past few days to help a constituent whose house was being repossessed. It emerged in the course of the hearing that the individual was granted a loan of 200% of his entitlement——

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot listen to anecdotes now. The Deputy must ask a question.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

I am coming to that.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should come to it.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

It is a serious issue. The man is now being charged between 10% and 15% of a penalty interest rate for failure to meet his repayments.

An Ceann Comhairle

What is the question?

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

There were 40 or 50 cases in the court that day. People are daily——

An Ceann Comhairle

What is the Deputy's question on the Order of Business? I will have to move on to the next person.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

It is in respect of promised legislation and is very important. The Ceann Comhairle knows this as a legal practitioner.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy need not mind about that now. He should ask the question.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

What Bill can the Taoiseach order into the House to deal with this issue?

An Ceann Comhairle

That is not in order.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

The financial services (miscellaneous provisions) Bill was intended "to transfer Ministerial responsibility for building societies from the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government," who does nothing about the issue anyway, "to the Minister for Finance and to provide for various other miscellaneous amendments to financial services law". Would it be possible to introduce that legislation as a matter of some urgency before people are penalised to the extent of repossession?

An Ceann Comhairle

These anecdotes must stop.

The Taoiseach

The Deputy has raised an issue of individual concern to his constituent and concerning the general impact of such measures. It has been agreed in the recapitalisation facilities for the two main banks that there is a need to extend the Irish Banking Federation's voluntary code of conduct to a statutory code to cover all lenders, not simply those who are members of the federation, so that those who have a predilection for heading quickly to the courts for repossession would be subject to the same code and guidelines. That is the best way to deal generally with this issue.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

I thank the Taoiseach for his reply.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy has had his turn.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

I thank the Ceann Comhairle too.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

The Taoiseach no doubt met Senator George Mitchell during his visit to the United States and the White House last week. The George Mitchell Scholarship Fund Act 1998 (Amendment) Bill is No. 49 in section C of the Government legislation programme. We are beginning to become seriously financially embarrassed in respect of the fund which was established in 1998. The credibility of the goodwill of the Irish people is at risk unless we put our money where our mouth has so often been. When will the legislation be published?

The first anniversary of the passage of Second Stage of the Student Support Bill is coming up. It is still on Committee Stage and we await the amendments from the Department of Education and Science. Will the Taoiseach ask the Minister for Education and Science to communicate with the Chairman of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Education and Science, the semi-detached support for the Government, Deputy Gogarty, to bring this matter forward? Unless it is brought forward we will miss another year of the administration of student grants because it will be another six to nine months before it is operational.

The Taoiseach

The heads of the Bill for the George Mitchell scholarship fund are being worked on and should be brought to the House this year. I will have to check with the Minister on the status of the proposed amendments to the Student Support Bill.

Deputy Joe Costello

What progress has been made in discussions between the European Commission and the Government on the drafting of the legal guarantees the Taoiseach secured at the December summit on a proposed second referendum on the Lisbon treaty? In addition, will the Taoiseach indicate when he intends to involve the Opposition on these matters?

The Taoiseach

As the Deputy outlined, the procedure entails dealing with the legal services division in both the Commission and the Council, but primarily the latter. It involves the Presidency checking with other member states regarding the proposed contents of these guarantees and obtaining from them their views on giving support to the guarantees. That process is ongoing and it must harden up, as it were. We might then see that the drafting proposals or the conversations now taking place will result in a text that will have broad, indeed unanimous, support. That is what is required by the December Council conclusions. We can then interact with Opposition parties as to our position. It is a work in progress.

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

With regard to the upcoming budget on 7 April and the introduction of a finance Bill to give effect to the measures contained therein, can the Taoiseach indicate at this point if the Government has decided to follow this with a social welfare Bill? Have there been serious deliberations on that prospect? Is the Taoiseach prepared to discuss such a proposition with the Opposition in advance of any such interference with supports for people in the very lowest dependency brackets in society?

An Ceann Comhairle

That relates to the budgetary issue.

The Taoiseach

One of the objectives of the Government's deliberations at present is to protect as far as possible and to the greatest extent the weakest in society as we try to stabilise the public finances and move them towards balance in the coming years. I point out that during better times this Government's record in respect of social welfare increases is a very good one, comparing most favourably with that of any preceding Administration. Consistently, social welfare entitlements ran well in excess of consumer price index and cost of living increases. That was quite rightly the case as we sought to implement the national anti-poverty strategy which brought basic payments well up to the percentage of average wages, as was required under that strategy. Indeed, that objective was exceeded with regard to pensions, child benefit and the introduction of a number of supports which have had a major effect in reducing to historically low levels the levels of consistent poverty in this country, despite the recent very difficult times we have experienced.

The record of social welfare support was based very much on the philosophy of those Governments, namely, to ensure that the improved resources generated during the good times provided for those most vulnerable. That is evidenced by the fact that we now have a social welfare and social support system that costs taxpayers in the region of €21 billion now against revenues that are in the €30 billions rather than the €40 billions or €50 billions as envisaged. That is an indication of the considerable resources that were quite rightly applied to this area in recent times.

We must now adapt to a new situation. The question of sustainability is as, or more, important for those on limited incomes as it is for those who are in a position through their productive life to obtain remuneration well in excess of social welfare entitlements. The question of sustainabilitly is as important for those categories as it is for others. It behoves us all to make sure we try to address that issue. The room for manoeuvre is clearly very limited.

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

That was a very long "Yes".

The Taoiseach

The Deputy's attention span was not as long for the answer as it was for the question.

Deputy Brian Hayes

The Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Batt O'Keeffe, stated that he intends to bring proposals to Government over the next number of weeks concerning new means of funding higher education for the future. Can the Taoiseach give us a guarantee that when this matter is considered by Cabinet we might have a debate in the House? A variety of views have been expressed——

An Ceann Comhairle

That is not the step, as Deputy Hayes is well aware.

Deputy Brian Hayes

It may require legislation.

An Ceann Comhairle

It might but the Deputy must name it.

Deputy Brian Hayes

The House has not had a chance to debate this in plenary session.

An Ceann Comhairle

I take it that is not a proposition.

Deputy Brian Hayes

There are various views——

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot go to that now. I must move on to the next business, as the Deputy knows.

Deputy Brian Hayes

I am just looking for a commitment that some debate might occur.

An Ceann Comhairle

Taoiseach, I assume that is a matter for the Whips.

The Taoiseach

It is a matter for the Whips. I am sure the Deputy can deal with it through parliamentary questions and other mechanisms and that he can obtain from the Minister an expression of his views on these matters. I point out that the Government has yet to consider any detailed proposals. Policy initiatives in this area are as relevant as they were in respect of the response I gave to Deputy Ó Caoláin, however elongated it may have seemed to him. They concern what is sustainable in the circumstances in which we find ourselves and how we can make sure to fund third and fourth-level education adequately in this country, given what our competitors are doing and how they sustain world-class facilities. We must make sure we have an adequate finance mechanism for this as elsewhere.