Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 25 Jun 2009

Vol. 686 No. 1

Other Questions.

Tax and Social Welfare Codes.

Arthur Morgan

Question:

6 Deputy Arthur Morgan asked the Minister for Social and Family Affairs the expected gain to the Exchequer if the PRSI ceiling was abolished; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [23142/09]

Minister for Social and Family Affairs (Deputy Mary Hanafin)

The PRSI system is based on the contributory and solidarity principles. The contributory principle ensures there is a direct link between the contributions paid and the range of benefits and pensions to which the person is entitled. The solidarity principle relates to the redistributive nature of the system which ensures supports are provided to more vulnerable workers.

Current estimates indicate that the abolition of the PRSI ceiling would yield approximately €119.5 million additional contribution income in a full year.

Under the PRSI system social insurance contributions are compulsorily payable by employers, employees and self-employed workers. With regard to employees' contributions the amount payable is determined by reference to reckonable earnings in a weekly period, and is subject to a range of thresholds and an annual ceiling. Approximately 76% of workers pay PRSI Class A and Class H at the rate of 4% and accrue entitlement to a range of benefits and pensions under various social insurance schemes.

The PRSI exemption on low earnings stands at €352 per week. People with incomes at that level or below are exempt from PRSI. Once a person earns above this level their total income, up to the annual ceiling, is chargeable to PRSI but they are entitled to a PRSI-free allowance of €127 per week.

The employee PRSI ceiling is reviewed annually in accordance with the legislative stipulations of the Social Welfare (Consolidation) Act 2005. In the 2009 budget the employee ceiling was increased by €1,300 from €50,700 to €52,000; and in the supplementary budget a more substantial increase brought it to €75,036.

The Actuarial Review of the Social Insurance Fund 2005 report, published in 2007, found that paying social insurance contributions represents very good value for money in almost all circumstances. In particular, the report stated that those on lower incomes fare considerably better than those on higher incomes, with persons earning less than the gross average industrial wage paying 35% of the contributions and receiving 66% of the benefits.

This finding demonstrates the solidarity principle of the social insurance scheme whereby contributions paid by insured persons are not actuarially linked to benefits but are instead redistributed to support contributors who are more vulnerable. It is an expression of solidarity between both earning groups and generations.

Any future changes to the PRSI ceiling would have to be considered in a budgetary context.

Deputy Arthur Morgan

I thank the Minister for her reply. Why was the PRSI ceiling not abolished in the budget of 7 April? Does the Minister accept that the threshold deals only with people who could be regarded as being on reasonably high incomes? Does she consider that the €19.5 million that could have been achieved with the abolition of the ceiling is not necessary and that there is sufficient funding without it? Can the Minister give us any good reason it was not abolished in the budget? I acknowledge that the ceiling was raised in the budget but why was it not abolished?

Deputy Mary Hanafin

As I indicated, €103.5 million will be raised through the change in the ceiling this year. Abolition of the ceiling would have to be seen in the context of all other financial measures introduced in the most recent budget including the income levy. The main aim of that budget with regard to income was to ensure that money was made available to the Exchequer. Any funding through PRSI would not go to the Exchequer but to the social insurance fund. It would not have resolved the main problem that we had for that budget. Raising the ceiling impacted severely on a number of workers and achieved at least the target of €103.5 million but it has to be seen in the overall context of the other measures introduced by the Department of Finance.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

From next year there will be a shortfall in the social insurance budget so it would impact on it. I smiled when the Minister mentioned solidarity in the social insurance system. If one takes account of the large cash transfers that are taking place by way of tax relief on private pensions, there would not be too much solidarity to speak about. One must consider the wider picture.

With regard to PRSI, it came to my attention recently that certain streams of income are not subject to PRSI and certain anomalies exist. If a self-employed person has a rental income he or she must pay PRSI on it but if an employed person has rental income he or she does not have to pay PRSI. Is the Minister aware of this anomaly and does she intend to deal with it? It would make more sense to target those anomalies rather than hitting the Christmas bonus if she wanted to make savings in the social welfare system.

Deputy Mary Hanafin

I am not aware of this specific issue and I will check it out.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

Will the Minister examine the matter?

Deputy Mary Hanafin

As I stated, I will check it out.

Deputy Arthur Morgan

What will be the implications for the Department's budget when the social insurance fund runs out?

Deputy Mary Hanafin

The important issue is that it will not have any implications for workers or anyone benefiting from claims made under the social insurance fund. When a deficit arises in the fund, as it inevitably will, the fund will be subvented by the Exchequer. Sufficient money will, therefore, be available to make pension and other payments which are currently paid from the fund. This year, the Department's budget is more than €21 billion. While I hope demand for jobseeker's allowance and other benefits will decrease next year, the Exchequer will top up the social insurance fund when it becomes necessary.

Social Welfare Benefits.

Enda Kenny

Question:

7 Deputy Enda Kenny asked the Minister for Social and Family Affairs the processing time it takes for each individual social welfare office to deal with a claim in respect of jobseeker’s allowance; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [23319/09]

Dinny McGinley

Question:

10 Deputy Dinny McGinley asked the Minister for Social and Family Affairs the number of persons on a national, county and local social welfare office basis waiting in respect of their application for jobseeker’s benefit to be processed; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [23334/09]

Phil Hogan

Question:

13 Deputy Phil Hogan asked the Minister for Social and Family Affairs the processing time it takes for each individual social welfare office to deal with a claim in respect of jobseeker’s benefit; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [23325/09]

Olivia Mitchell

Question:

16 Deputy Olivia Mitchell asked the Minister for Social and Family Affairs the number of persons on a national, county and local social welfare office basis waiting for their application in respect of jobseeker’s allowance to be processed; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [23338/09]

Brian Hayes

Question:

27 Deputy Brian Hayes asked the Minister for Social and Family Affairs the average processing time it takes for a claim in respect of jobseeker’s benefit to be dealt with; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [23321/09]

Charles Flanagan

Question:

32 Deputy Charles Flanagan asked the Minister for Social and Family Affairs the average processing time it takes for a claim for jobseeker’s allowance to be dealt with; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [23304/09]

Deputy Mary Hanafin

I propose to take Questions Nos. 7, 10, 13, 16, 27 and 32 together.

The live register has increased from 207,100 in May 2008 to 396,871 at the end of May 2009, an unprecedented increase of more than 96%. I assure the House that staff in the Department are working extremely hard to process claims as expeditiously as is possible, having regard to the conditions of the schemes.

The average processing time for claims decided in May was 3.68 weeks for jobseeker's benefit and 6.35 weeks for jobseeker's allowance. This is the average nationally and there are fluctuations between offices. The length of time it takes to process claims varies depending on the complexity of the claim, the availability of the necessary documentation from the applicant or his or her employer and, in the case of jobseeker's allowance, the need to carry out additional inquires, including assessment of means and whether the claimant satisfies the habitual residence condition. Furthermore, processing times can vary from office to office for a number of reasons, including increased claim load, the number of staff vacancies, the duration of such vacancies and the turnover of staff in the office which impacts on the overall level of experience in the office.

At the end of May, a total 70,363 claims were awaiting a decision, of which 26,437 were jobseeker's benefit claims and 43,926 jobseeker's allowance claims. This compares to a total of 71,885 awaiting a decision at the end of April. I am making available tabular statements showing the number of claims awaiting a decision at the end of May and the average processing time for claims decided in May for each local and branch office. Local offices do not operate strictly within county boundaries and customers can be served by a local office outside their county boundary where the location of the office is more convenient to them. Consequently, statistics of number of claims awaiting a decision on a county basis are not available.

As I outlined, as a result of staffing reviews in 2008 and again in recent months, some 300 extra staff have been assigned to local offices, new central support units and the Department's inspectorate since May 2008. This includes 90 temporary staff who have been appointed to local offices around the country pending the assignment of permanent staff. Arrangements are also in train to allocate a further 24 inspector posts.

At the same time, the Department has been examining all aspects of the work associated with the processing of claims and streamlining them wherever possible without compromising our scheme controls. There has been a significant increase in productivity in local offices during 2009, with almost 251,500 claims for local office schemes decided from January to May 2009 as compared to 146,500 in the same period in 2008.

As many local offices are very close to capacity as regards accommodating further staff, we have established from 25 May five central decision units in Dublin, Sligo, Finglas, Carrick-on-Shannon and, most recently, Roscommon. A further central support unit is to be established in Tallaght early next month.

While acknowledging that some claims are more complicated than others and will, therefore, take longer than the average time to decide, processing times in some areas are still too long. I assure Deputies we are doing our best to reduce them. I fully appreciate that becoming unemployed is a very difficult time in a person's life and those who become unemployed need to secure access to financial and other supports as quickly as possible.

Claims Awaiting Decision @ W/E 30 May 2009

Office	Parent Office	JA	JB & JBCO	Total
Achill SWLO	Achill	3	2	5
Apollo House SWLO	Apollo House	200	80	280
Ardee SWBO	Drogheda	257	101	358
Arklow SWLO	Arklow	281	106	387
Athlone SWLO	Athlone	316	317	633
Athy SWBO	Newbridge	279	86	365
Balbriggan SWLO	Balbriggan	407	243	650
Ballina SWLO	Ballina	339	147	486
Ballinasloe SWBO	Athlone	229	161	390
Ballinrobe SWBO	Loughrea	181	42	223
Ballybofey SWBO	Donegal CO	113	35	148
Ballyconnell SWBO	Cavan	196	86	282
Ballyfermot SWLO	Ballyfermot	393	300	693
Ballymun SWLO	Ballymun	189	83	272
Ballyshannon SWBO	Donegal CO	54	23	77
Baltinglass SWBO	Newbridge	144	31	175
Bandon SWBO	Carrigaline	227	246	473
Bantry CO SWLO	Bantry CO	33	10	43
Bantry SWBO	Bantry CO	108	33	141
Belmullet SWLO	Belmullet	31	13	44
Birr SWBO	Athlone	150	79	229
Bishop Square SWLO	Bishop Square	854	694	1,548
Blanchardstown SWLO	Blanchardstown	1,474	559	2,033
Boyle SWBO	Longford	149	63	212
Bray SWLO	Bray	383	331	714
Buncrana SWLO	Buncrana	480	121	601
Cahir SWBO	Clonmel	85	43	128
Cahirciveen SWLO	Cahirciveen	48	34	82
Carlow SWLO	Carlow	386	106	492
Carrickmacross SWBO	Dundalk	186	46	232
Carrick-on-Shannon SWLO	Carrick-on-Shannon	157	71	228
Carrick-on-Suir SWBO	Waterford	150	86	236
Carrigaline SWLO	Carrigaline	290	170	460
Cashel SWBO	Clonmel	79	42	121
Castlebar SWLO	Castlebar	160	68	228
Castleblaney SWBO	Dundalk	169	45	214
Castlepollard SWBO	Mullingar	250	122	372
Castlerea SWBO	Ballina	242	117	359
Cavan SWLO	Cavan	787	245	1,032
Claremorris SWBO	Ballina	236	87	323
Clifden SWLO	Clifden	36	10	46
Clonakilty SWBO	Carrigaline	164	144	308
Clondalkin SWLO	Clondalkin	936	1,143	2,079
Clones SWBO	Dundalk	65	14	79
Clonmel SWLO	Clonmel	121	46	167
Cobh SWLO	Cobh	45	19	64
Coolock SWLO	Coolock	490	243	733
Cork SWLO	Cork	3,080	3,000	6,080
Dingle SWBO	Tralee	52	41	93
Donegal SWBO	Donegal CO	39	35	74
Drogheda SWLO	Drogheda	1,238	394	1,632
Dun Laoghaire SWLO	Dun Laoghaire	1,077	634	1,711
Dundalk SWLO	Dundalk	591	147	738
Dunfanaghy SWLO	Dunfanaghy	41	20	61
Dungarvan SWBO	Waterford	168	153	321
Dungloe SWLO	Dungloe	67	44	111
Edenderry SWBO	Mullingar	464	163	627
Ennis SWLO	Ennis	505	249	754
Enniscorthy SWBO	Wexford	381	180	561
Ennistymon SWBO	Ennis	112	47	159
Fermoy SWBO	Mallow CO	192	255	447
Finglas SWLO	Finglas	333	175	508
Galway SWLO	Galway	1,985	1,267	3,252
Gorey SWBO	Wexford	401	144	545
Gort SWBO	Ennis	206	53	259
Kells SWBO	Navan	321	65	386
Kenmare SWLO	Kenmare	28	21	49
Kilbarrack SWLO	Kilbarrack	344	612	956
Kilkenny SWLO	Kilkenny	599	125	724
Killarney SWLO	Killarney	266	66	332
Killorglin SWBO	Tralee	123	77	200
Killybegs SWBO	Donegal CO	34	35	69
Kilmallock SWBO	Newcastlewest	187	129	316
Kilrush SWBO	Ennis	91	107	198
Kinsale SWBO	Carrigaline	135	151	286
Letterkenny SWLO	Letterkenny	243	46	289
Limerick SWLO	Limerick	1,574	1,321	2,895
Listowel SWLO	Listowel	182	169	351
Longford SWLO	Longford	699	418	1,117
Loughrea SWLO	Loughrea	537	163	700
Macroom SWBO	Mallow CO	133	253	386
Mallow SWBO	Mallow CO	199	321	520
Manorhamilton SWLO	Manorhamilton	26	36	62
Maynooth SWBO	Ballyfermot	1,091	987	2,078
Midleton SWBO	Carrigaline	386	421	807
Monaghan SWBO	Dundalk	227	93	320
Muine Bheag SWBO	Carlow	191	31	222
Mullingar SWLO	Mullingar	737	495	1,232
Navan Road SWLO	Navan Road	723	244	967
Navan SWLO	Navan	1,094	563	1,657
Nenagh SWBO	Thurles	127	74	201
New Ross SWBO	Wexford	276	127	403
Newbridge SWLO	Newbridge	1,020	442	1,462
Newcastle West SWLO	Newcastlewest	179	281	460
Newmarket SWBO	Listowel	168	438	606
Nth Cumberland St. SWLO	Nth Cumberland St	429	294	723
Nutgrove SWLO	Nutgrove	136	77	213
Portarlington SWBO	Tullamore	487	123	610
Portlaoise SWBO	Kilkenny	545	191	736
Rathdowney SWBO	Kilkenny	142	71	213
Roscommon SWBO	Longford	122	99	221
Roscrea SWBO	Thurles	48	25	73
Skibbereen SWBO	Bantry CO	91	30	121
Sligo SWLO	Sligo	489	172	661
Swinford SWBO	Ballina	206	83	289
Swords SWLO	Swords	373	412	785
Tallaght SWLO	Tallaght	738	390	1,128
Thomas Street SWLO	Thomas Street	389	88	477
Thomastown SWBO	Waterford	120	114	234
Thurles SWLO	Thurles	138	87	225
Tipperary SWBO	Clonmel	78	46	124
Tralee SWLO	Tralee	352	242	594
Trim SWBO	Navan	502	166	668
Tuam SWBO	Loughrea	561	209	770
Tubbercurry SWBO	Sligo	52	5	57
Tulla SWBO	Ennis	47	20	67
Tullamore SWLO	Tullamore	507	209	716
Tullow SWBO	Carlow	202	48	250
Waterford SWLO	Waterford	959	614	1,573
Westport SWLO	Westport	50	49	99
Wexford SWLO	Wexford	407	163	570
Wicklow SWBO	Arklow	192	83	275
Youghal SWBO	Carrigaline	140	122	262
		43,926	26,437	70,363

Processing times for May 2009

	JB	JA
Achill	0.15	0.15
Apollo House	2.71	3.87
Ardee	3.24	8.93
Arklow	3.12	4.92
Athlone	2.83	4.46
Athy	2.91	5.03
Balbriggan	3.33	9.09
Ballina	3.22	6.81
Ballinasloe	4.00	4.67
Ballinrobe	3.95	14.39
Ballybofey	1.11	2.48
Ballyconnell	5.36	10.56
Ballyfermot	5.69	4.44
Ballymun	3.69	4.72
Ballyshannon	0.77	2.33
Baltinglass	0.95	6.69
Bandon	7.93	12.54
Bantry	2.58	5.19
Bantry Co	2.82	9.15
Belmullet	1.88	2.35
Birr	2.33	4.26
Bishop Square	5.49	7.75
Blanchardstown	4.14	11.03
Boyle	4.34	14.01
Bray	2.64	6.29
Buncrana	3.69	6.13
Cahir	1.92	3.61
Cahirciveen	2.20	5.65
Carlow	2.60	5.30
Carrickmacross	2.01	7.12
Carrick-On-Shannon	0.73	3.15
Carrick-On-Suir	3.37	7.15
Carrigaline	3.17	8.02
Cashel	2.71	4.88
Castlebar	2.53	2.13
Castleblayney	2.32	5.72
Castlepollard	4.42	14.57
Castlerea	2.95	11.62
Cavan	4.28	9.51
Claremorris	2.03	9.61
Clifden	0.91	1.49
Clonakilty	7.37	9.12
Clondalkin	5.84	5.20
Clones	1.54	3.78
Clonmel	1.78	2.31
Cobh	1.35	1.37
Coolock Lo	2.52	3.52
Cork	9.52	8.05
Dingle	4.84	5.85
Donegal	1.67	2.07
Drogheda	2.07	10.76
Dundalk	1.81	5.62
Dunfanaghy	0.86	1.58
Dungarvan	3.38	8.37
Dungloe	2.63	1.38
Dun Laoghaire	3.87	9.90
Edenderry	3.00	15.26
Ennis	3.06	5.47
Enniscorthy	3.43	6.18
Ennistymon	2.61	5.60
Fermoy	6.25	5.99
Finglas	2.39	5.34
Galway	6.37	9.75
Gorey	3.39	7.13
Gort	3.86	12.55
Kells	2.15	12.76
Kenmare	3.36	4.02
Kilbarrack	4.19	4.35
Kilkenny	3.44	7.57
Killarney	3.02	5.60
Killorglin	4.48	8.52
Killybegs	0.71	1.16
Kilmallock	2.79	4.14
Kilrush	4.38	4.27
Kinsale	7.99	11.75
Letterkenny	1.48	1.96
Limerick	3.95	6.14
Listowel	4.78	4.43
Longford	6.23	9.63
Loughrea	3.11	14.20
Macroom	5.54	6.27
Mallow Branch Office	6.85	6.70
Manorhamilton	0.49	1.44
Maynooth	6.18	8.68
Midleton	6.50	11.46
Monaghan	2.70	4.99
Muine Bheag	1.20	5.77
Mullingar	4.89	12.69
Navan	4.07	12.65
Navan Road	2.37	5.23
Nenagh	1.50	2.51
Newbridge	2.42	6.83
Newcastle West	2.31	2.96
Newmarket	9.06	9.92
New Ross	3.14	4.29
Nth Cumberland Street	2.51	2.99
Nutgrove	0.74	1.78
Portarlington	3.32	12.31
Portlaoise	3.96	10.26
Rathdowney	4.16	14.59
Roscommon	3.45	6.61
Roscrea	1.89	2.28
Skibbereen	1.78	8.55
Sligo	2.45	11.40
Swinford	2.83	10.38
Swords Lo	5.00	4.94
Tallaght	2.54	4.65
Thomas Street	1.69	3.94
Thomastown	4.91	7.34
Thurles	1.52	2.08
Tipperary	1.82	2.30
Tralee	3.41	4.64
Trim	3.16	10.80
Tuam	4.72	16.21
Tubbercurry	1.18	2.94
Tulla	1.98	3.81
Tullamore Control Office	3.95	8.92
Tullow	1.54	7.06
Waterford	3.52	5.00
Westport	2.26	1.22
Wexford	1.88	3.90
Wicklow	2.19	8.73
Youghal	5.21	8.61

Deputy Olwyn Enright

While we all know what is involved in processing a claim, these factors do not explain the difference in processing times. Irrespective of whether average processing times are 19 weeks in one area or two weeks in another area, departmental staff must ask claimants the same questions. Variations in claimants' circumstances do not account for the delays in processing claims.

When we last raised this issue in the House, the five offices with the longest processing times were Boyle, Edenderry, Bandon, Navan and Tuam. What steps have been taken in these specific local offices to address the long waiting times for claimants? The shortest processing time in the five offices was 13 weeks, while the longest was 19 weeks.

Responding to a question by Deputy Shortall, the Minister referred to trying to get in line with targets. What are the Department's targets? Is the shortest processing time of two weeks the target for the whole country? Given that this timeframe is feasible in one office, could a target of two weeks not be achieved in all offices?

The Minister indicated that if community welfare officers were to be brought under her Department, it would be all sweetness and light — that expression has stuck since the Ceann Comhairle used it earlier.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am pleased I made an impression on someone.

Deputy Olwyn Enright

Difficulties will persist even if the community welfare service comes within the remit of the Department because the service is no longer able to provide the support it did one year ago on account of the increasing number of claimants. What action will the Minister take to address this matter?

Deputy Mary Hanafin

The target for jobseeker's benefit is to process 90% of claims within three weeks. In May, 60% of claims were processed in that timeframe. The Deputy will note from the tables that processing times in many offices are significantly shorter than three weeks. In some cases, the average processing time is two weeks, one week or only a few days. The major problem is not in this area. The target for jobseeker's allowance is to process 90% of claims within six weeks. In May, 65% of claims were decided within that timeframe.

The figures the Deputy cited for certain offices are correct. She will note, however, that the offices in question are all branch offices. In an effort to speed up the processing of claims, applications from some of these branch offices have been transferred for processing in the five special units established recently. This means claims will no longer lie at the bottom of a pile in a local office. A further special unit will be established in Tallaght next month. The creation of a special unit in each region will speed up processing.

The unfortunate effect of the long processing times in some offices is that they skew the figures for the whole country. The Deputy asked the reason average processing times were much longer in some areas than in others. Some of the small offices with few staff have experienced a twofold or threefold increase in the number of claims, depending on local circumstances. In those areas where we determined that specific issues would arise, we ensured these issues would be addressed by the central units. I will deal with that matter in a moment.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

The Minister made a number of comments on difficulties encountered in improving processing times and indicated the main problems arise in branch offices. While I accept that major problems are occurring in branch offices, they are not confined to these offices. A brief examination of the tables supplied shows that six local offices have processing times of ten weeks or more. What action is being taken to address these unacceptable delays?

The Minister stated the CPSU objected to her attempt to introduce a system to speed up processing in branch offices. She also indicated the union objected when the Department sought to extend to other offices same day processing for jobseeker's benefit which had been working well in some areas. It would be helpful if she spelt out precisely what were the problems in this regard.

Deputy Mary Hanafin

Clearly, the Department will examine staffing in local offices that are experiencing problems. I must be fair to offices throughout the country. The Deputy asked about offices with the longest processing times. The Secretary General has also been examining management issues and so forth because these must be considered from an operations perspective, with a view to ensuring people are looked after.

On the new initiatives, Dundalk introduced an appointment system which has worked well. Initially there were some objections from the unions, but then they came on board. That initiative is hugely successful and is being rolled out to 16 different offices. People go in and are given an appointment time and hatch number and told what documentation they need. The result is no queues and the protection of the dignity of applicants. It also ensures staff can build in lunch and break periods. This works very well.

The other initiatives mentioned could work very well in the interest of both the staff and the public. That is the reason I hope the CPSU will agree to them.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

The Minister suggested the CPSU was blocking both initiatives.

Deputy Mary Hanafin

Suffice to say, the agreement with the branch officers goes back to April 2008, but agreement has not been reached with the CPSU on the issue because it says it is outsourcing.

Deputy Seymour Crawford

I appreciate the extraordinary pressure the system is under due to the doubling of the number of unemployed. I want to focus on the issue of jobseekers, particularly those who were previously self-employed. There is a major problem in their regard. There seems to be a degree of enthusiasm among the inspectorate to insist on all sorts of documentation of back income etc. I understood from a meeting on 13 May that this was being reconsidered and that the current income situation of these people would be the issue. However, I have not found that happening in the system. I urge the Minister to take another look at the situation. Perhaps that would help speed up payments.

I mentioned a particular case previously and without going into too much detail I will repeat it. It concerns a person's half-built house being taken into account. It was valued at €400,000 and this sum was taken into account and used as a basis to refuse a jobseeker's payment. This is not on and I urge the Minister to reconsider this type of appraisal. Perhaps that would then speed up a resolution of the situation.

Deputy Mary Hanafin

Deputy Crawford raised that issue with me and I am aware there are some issues with regard to the capital valuation being placed on properties. There have been significant changes and improvements throughout the country with regard to benefits for the self-employed. It has not been brought to my attention that there is significant difficulty in any individual office, but if there are, particularly in Monaghan, we will check them out. The procedure has been changed so that inspectors do not look at the projected income based on last year's income in the way they used to.

Did the Deputy ask another question?

Deputy Seymour Crawford

It was only yesterday that I was advised of this issue by the Dundalk office.

Deputy Mary Hanafin

I wanted to mention the value of the central units in making decisions. When, for example, the SR Technics redundancies came on stream, all of those, instead of going to local offices, went to the Finglas central unit and the decisions were made there. The same happened in the case of Dell and the applications from there went immediately to Sligo. These central offices were able to deal with bulk applications efficiently, which freed up the local offices.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

In response to the priority question, the Minister indicated the CPSU was blocking progress on the processing of claims on two different fronts. She seems to have backtracked on that in the response she has just given.

Deputy Mary Hanafin

No, I gave a separate example.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

Is there an industrial relations issue or not? Will the Minister clarify the issue with regard to the appointment system, to dealing with long delays in branch offices and to processing being done by departmental staff? She indicated earlier the CPSU was at fault on those fronts.

Has the Minister a figure for the current number of staff vacancies? When will the central support office for Wexford be up and running? Does the Minister accept there is a need to look at procedures. Two complaints were brought to my attention recently with regard to a person who had applied for jobseeker's allowance. A social welfare officer called to the House without an appointment and then had to return the following week. In the second case, a means assessment was not carried out for somebody on jobseeker's benefit until the person's last week on that benefit, another delay. Does the Minister accept there is potential for tightening the procedures being used?

Deputy Mary Hanafin

We recently streamlined procedures for people moving to jobseeker's allowance from jobseeker's benefit. We have also made an improvement in the IT system, which will generate automatic letters to people before they come to the end of jobseeker's benefit so that assessments can be done. We have also streamlined a process for people who have had a claim in the previous two years, so that if people get a job for a couple of weeks or go to training or FÁS, the process for dealing with that is better. Application forms are available on the website so that people can bring them in already completed. More straightforward procedures have also been introduced for identity checks and improvements have been made in the area of casual work. There is significant paperwork involved in casual work claims. We are constantly trying to improve the process and the more we do in this regard the better.

With regard to the Deputy's earlier comments on improvements generally, the two issues which have not been advanced are the agreement with the branch officers on them making decisions locally rather than having forms and applications going to the local office. This has been agreed with the branch offices, but has not yet been implemented. That is held up.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

Is it the CPSU that is holding that up?

Deputy Mary Hanafin

That is what I understand, because it is outsourcing from the local office to the branch office. The second issue on which it has not been possible to make progress was the project that allowed decisions on jobseeker's benefit to be made on the day. That had to be stopped and there has been no progress on it.

Lest the Deputy is confused about what I said, what has progressed is that the appointment system——

Deputy Róisín Shortall

No, I asked about same day processing. What is the problem with that?

Deputy Mary Hanafin

Two issues have not progressed and one initiative started and stopped but has now progressed very successfully in 16 different offices. That is the appointment system and it has the full co-operation of the staff. Staff in our offices throughout the country are genuinely working flat out. This can be seen in their productivity. Some 200,000 claims cleared in one month is extraordinary productivity from staff. The more we can do to support them in their work, which will ultimately support applicants, is our main aim.

Deputy Olwyn Enright

I referred to this issue in a priority question and have raised it several times. I accept, as most people do, that staff are working flat out. However, the main concern is the customer, the person who has nothing to live on and is trying to survive. I have raised an issue with regard to people doing FÁS courses but have not received a satisfactory answer to my question. They sign off benefit, sign on with FÁS and then sign back on with the Department. That is a waste of staff time. If this issue was dealt with when it was first raised, it would have freed up time for staff. When will the Minister stop that process? Those signing on for FÁS courses get the same amount of money. Basically, all the money comes from the same Department, the Department of Finance. It makes no sense to continue with the same process. If this issue was tackled, it would immediately free up a significant amount of time for staff. It might not be enough time to deal with the problem, but it would be useful. Will we see action on that?

Deputy Mary Hanafin

What has happened is that claims will be processed more smoothly, given the person made a claim in the previous two weeks. That issue has been streamlined. I think what the Deputy is saying is that although the money comes from two different Departments, it all comes from the Exchequer and that these people should not have to make repeated claims. That has not been changed. However, we have tried to streamline the process so that applicants can move seamlessly between the two.

Bernard J. Durkan

Question:

8 Deputy Bernard J. Durkan asked the Minister for Social and Family Affairs the expected expenditure on mortgage and rent supplements in 2009; the degree to which this is deemed adequate to meet requirements; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [23237/09]

Deputy Mary Hanafin

Expenditure on rent and mortgage payments has increased significantly in recent years and there are currently over 88,000 recipients of rent supplement and 12,900 recipients of mortgage interest supplement.

Increased expenditure on these payments is driven not only by rises in the live register but also by an increase in recipients on other schemes such as one-parent family payment and illness related payments. The estimated number of recipients for both schemes in 2009 was reviewed during preparation of the supplementary budget. As a result of this analysis, the provision for the rent supplement was increased to €490.4 million, which is €50.7 million more than the 2008 outturn on this scheme. The allocation for the mortgage interest supplement was also increased, to €40.1m, or €12.5m more than the outturn for 2008. Expenditure on both schemes is being closely monitored on a monthly basis, taking into account trends in recipient numbers, average monthly payments and savings arising from the supplementary budget measures.

As Deputies will be aware, rent supplements are subject to a limit on the amount of rent that a recipient may incur. Setting or retaining maximum rent limits at higher levels than are justified by the open market can have a distorting effect on the rental market, leading to a more general rise in rent levels and in landlord income. This in turn may worsen the affordability of rental accommodation unnecessarily, with a particularly negative impact for those tenants on lower incomes.

The recent supplementary budget provided for decreases in both the maximum rent payable in respect of new tenancies and in rent supplement payments to existing tenants. These changes were informed by data from the Private Residential Tenancies Board, the CSO and a leading property rental website. It is vital that taxpayers' money is not paying inflated rents to private landlords when rental prices in general have dropped considerably.

Overall, I can assure Deputies that the Government is conscious of the needs of the increasing number of people who are coming to rely on State assistance with their rent and mortgage interest payments. We have substantially increased provision for these schemes, while also taking steps to ensure that we are not paying landlords excessive rents.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

Might it be a better policy for the Minister to pursue the possibility of entering into negotiations with her colleague, the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy John Gormley, with a view to coming to some arrangement whereby some of the locked-up houses throughout the country at the present time be made available to local authorities to alleviate some of the burden, some €500 million per annum, for rent support?

It seems extraordinary that at a time when €500 million is being spent on rent support, there are some 80,000 houses locked up, incomplete or vacant in the private sector. At the same time, the general economic downturn is affecting people to a far greater extent than it would at any other time. Could the Minister tell us to what extent the funds made available in the supplementary budget have been eroded to date?

Deputy Mary Hanafin

There is very close co-operation between my Department and the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. The Deputy is correct. It is very frustrating to see houses boarded up when people are in need of housing and are in rented accommodation. We are working closely with the Department to ensure more people are transferred onto the RAS scheme. In the last few years, 20,000 people have been transferred onto the scheme and it is working quite successfully. We are constantly trying to increase the numbers in the scheme.

Regarding the amount of money currently being spent, I do not have the specific figure but we made provision for additional claims due to the increase in the live register. I understand it is some €29 million, given the changes in the supplementary budget. Where there will be pressure is on the mortgage interest supplement, rather than the rent supplement. We envisage that there will be an overrun on that scheme, but that we will be able to accommodate it within the overall Estimate in the overall budget for the Department this year.

Deputy Olwyn Enright

Regarding mortgage interest supplement, I am concerned about whether it is efficient. However, I have a greater concern, namely, the protocol with the bankers' federation and the Minister's claim that only nine houses were repossessed in the first quarter of this year. I am concerned that the Minister is believing the bankers. The people referred to did not disappear. They sold their houses so they would not been seen to have had them repossessed or else had some way of meeting their settlement. The banks did not take such people as far as the High Court and then say, "You are all right. You can stay there". They still lost their houses, but lost them in a different way.

I am still not satisfied that mortgage interest supplement is being equitably distributed in terms of how it is decided. People are still being told they should not have entered into a contract to buy a house because they could not afford it. They could afford it at the time, but now the price of the house seems disproportionate, whereas two or three years ago it did not. The issue needs to be addressed.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

We are now several months into a mortgage crisis and the Minister has not yet reformed the mortgage interest supplement scheme. She has promised to reform it, such as the ridiculous rule where if one person is working more than 29 hours, they receive no help whatsoever, irrespective of their circumstances. When will the Minister announce a reform of the that scheme?

Regarding people moving from rent supplement to RAS, why is there an 18 month delay in doing that? Why must they be renting privately for 18 months before they can avail of RAS?

Deputy Mary Hanafin

It is important that there should be a waiting time for people who are in rented accommodation before they get what is a priority scheme, that is, RAS.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

Why is it a priority?

Deputy Mary Hanafin

There are people on housing waiting lists, as the Deputy knows far better than I do, who are in overcrowded accommodation at home but are not in rented accommodation and need to take their place in receiving social housing and the type of housing available for them.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

They would be eligible for private accommodation.

Deputy Mary Hanafin

A waiting time is important.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

Why?

Deputy Mary Hanafin

It is important because I believe it is. The changes in the supplementary budget are also important, such as the provision that people should have been in rented accommodation for six months or have a full assessment, rather than setting up new households with a view to getting rent supplement.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

It does not make any sense.

Deputy Mary Hanafin

It makes total sense because these are important controls.

Deputy Durkan asked about the amount spent. There are currently 88,000 people on rent supplement and 12,720 on mortgage interest supplement. Deputy Enright mentioned repossessions. She is correct regarding the repossession orders, but in some cases they are waiting for a lien on the home or building. I hope the protocol will ensure things will not reach that stage. We will now be working with sub-prime lenders, who are main culprits, and we will try to ensure they will not take steps towards repossessions. More and more people are working with MABS.

Regarding reform to the mortgage interest supplement, we are currently conducting a review to examine the question Deputy Enright raised, namely, the consistency of approach around the country, and any information on that——

Deputy Róisín Shortall

That review is going on forever.

Deputy Mary Hanafin

——will guide our future thinking on the issue.