Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 14 Feb 2023

Vol. 1033 No. 3

An tOrd Gnó - Order of Business

Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach (Deputy Hildegarde Naughton)

I move:

Tuesday's business shall be:

- Motion re Ministerial Rota for Parliamentary Questions (without debate)

- Veterinary Medicinal Products, Medicated Feed and Fertilisers Regulation Bill 2023 (Second Stage) ((if not previously concluded, to stand adjourned either at 5.56 p.m. or after 2 hours, whichever is the later)

Private members' business shall be the Motion re Spring Bonus and Cost-of-Living Supports, selected by Sinn Féin.

Wednesday’s business shall be:

- Motions re Revised Estimates [Votes 12 to 15, 17 to 22, 24 to 28, 30 to 32, 35 to 37, 39 to 41, and 43 to 45] and Further Revised Estimates [Votes 11 and 42] for Public Services 2023 (to be moved together and decided by one question which shall be put from the Chair)

- Civil Defence Bill 2023 (Second Stage) (if not previously concluded, to stand adjourned either at 4.30 p.m. or after 1 hour and 40 minutes, whichever is the later)

- Patient Safety (Notifiable Patient Safety Incidents) Bill 2019 (Report Stage, resumed, and Final Stage) (to be taken no earlier than 4 p.m. and if not previously concluded, to stand adjourned either at 7.30 p.m. or after 3 hours, whichever is the later)

Private members' business shall be the Motion re Energy Costs and Windfall Taxes, selected by the Social Democrats.

Thursday’s business shall be:

- Statements on Co-ordination of Services for those Seeking Protection in Ireland (not to exceed 210 mins)

- Veterinary Medicinal Products, Medicated Feed and Fertilisers Regulation Bill 2023 (Second Stage) (if not previously concluded, to stand adjourned at 7 p.m.)

Thursday evening business shall be Second Stage of the Health (Amendment) (Dual Diagnosis: No Wrong Door) Bill 2021 (Deputy Mark Ward)

Announcement of proposed arrangements for this week's business:

In relation to Tuesday’s business, it is proposed that:

1. the ordinary routine of business as contained in Schedule 3 to Standing Orders shall be modified to the extent that private members' business shall be taken on the adjournment or conclusion of Second Stage of the Veterinary Medicinal Products, Medicated Feed and Fertilisers Regulation Bill 2023, with consequential effect on the commencement time for Parliamentary Questions to the Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science and topical issues, and on the time for the adjournment of the Dáil;

2. the Motion re Ministerial Rota for Parliamentary Questions shall be taken without debate; and

3. the proceedings on the second reading motion on the Veterinary Medicinal Products, Medicated Feed and Fertilisers Regulation Bill 2023 shall, if not previously concluded, be interrupted and stand adjourned either at 5.56 p.m. or after 2 hours, whichever is the later.

In relation to Wednesday’s business:

1. the ordinary routine of business as contained in Schedule 3 to Standing Orders shall be modified to the extent that the weekly division time pursuant to Standing Order 80(2) shall be taken on the adjournment or conclusion of proceedings on the Patient Safety (Notifiable Patient Safety Incidents) Bill 2019;

2. the Motions re Revised Estimates [Votes 12 to 15, 17 to 22, 24 to 28, 30 to 32, 35 to 37, 39 to 41, and 43 to 45] and Further Revised Estimates [Votes 11 and 42] for Public Services 2023 shall be moved together and decided without debate by one question, which shall be put from the Chair;

3. the proceedings on the second reading motion on the Civil Defence Bill 2023 shall, if not previously concluded, be interrupted and stand adjourned either at 4.30 p.m. or after 1 hour and 40 minutes, whichever is the later; and

4. the proceedings on the resumed Report Stage and Final Stage of the Patient Safety (Notifiable Patient Safety Incidents) Bill 2019 shall be taken no earlier than 4 p.m. and shall, if not previously concluded, be interrupted and stand adjourned either at 7.30 p.m. or after 3 hours, whichever is the later.

In relation to Thursday’s business:

1. the ordinary routine of business as contained in Schedule 3 to Standing Orders shall be modified to the extent that topical issues shall be taken on the adjournment of proceedings on the Second Stage of the Veterinary Medicinal Products, Medicated Feed and Fertilisers Regulation Bill 2023, or on the conclusion of Government business, whichever is the earlier, with consequential effect on the commencement time for Second Stage of the Health (Amendment) (Dual Diagnosis: No Wrong Door) Bill 2021, and on the time for the adjournment of the Dáil;

2. the Statements on Co-ordination of Services for those Seeking Protection in Ireland shall not exceed 210 minutes, with arrangements in accordance with those agreed by Order of the Dáil of 30th July, 2020, for 200 minutes, following which a Minister or Minister of State shall be called upon to make a statement in reply which shall not exceed 10 minutes, and members may share time; and

3. the resumed proceedings on the second reading motion on the Veterinary Medicinal Products, Medicated Feed and Fertilisers Regulation Bill 2023 shall, if not previously concluded, be interrupted and stand adjourned at 7 p.m.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

It would be nice to have the motion agreed but let us see. Is that agreed?

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

It is not agreed. I ask for an adjournment of the patient safety Bill to next week. We all know this is important legislation that we need to get right. On 7 December and following the death of campaigner Vicky Phelan, there was cross-party determination to get this legislation right.

I assume we all still share that ambition. We are nearly there but we are not quite there yet. We need an amendment to the legislation to provide for a legal obligation on screening service providers to inform patients at the point of diagnosis, and no later than three months following diagnosis, of their legal right to a review.

The 221+ group has written to the Minister advising that this amendment is absolutely necessary. I support that position. I understand the deadline has passed for the Minister to bring the amendment at this point. We need an adjournment for this amendment to be taken and to get the legislation right.

Deputy Alan Kelly

As the Taoiseach knows, we have worked thoroughly on this Bill and in fairness to the Minister, he has come a long way with us. I admired what he did before Christmas because he is one of few Ministers who has ever stopped legislation proceeding, saying we needed more time. He has made changes that I thoroughly respect. The Minister knows, however, that this amendment regarding the time at which women who are diagnosed with cancer are told about the patient safety review has to be instituted in law. Otherwise, the Bill will not pass the Vicky test and we will not be able to support it. I ask the Taoiseach to please give a week to put in the amendment to be able to achieve this.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

A recent report by the Environmental Protection Agency, EPA, calling for a cull of 30% of cattle and sheep in Ireland is devastating. I ask for a debate in this Chamber. I also ask for a clear statement from the Taoiseach or Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Deputy McConalogue, that this report will be binned and shredded, as it should be.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

This is the Order of Business.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

We need a debate on this proposal because it would have a devastating impact on rural Ireland. A quadrupling of afforestation is also proposed. Does the Government want to close the gates on rural Ireland altogether? This report does not even deserve to be debated. The EPA, which is a publicly funded organisation-----

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I ask the Deputy-----

Deputy Mattie McGrath

It cannot see the woods for the trees.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I thank the Deputy.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

It has many issues. I ask the Taoiseach to condemn this report as scaremongering.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

This is the Order of Business. I call the Taoiseach.

The Taoiseach

I am advised by the Minister for Health that he is still engaging on the issue of the Patient Safety (Notifiable Patient Safety Incidents) Bill 2019. He is engaging with the 221+ group and the Attorney General around its legal implications. The Minister still hopes to get the Bill done this week but there is a possibility that we will put it off for a week if that makes sense. He is still hoping that we can have an agreement and get the legislation done this week, if at all possible. We are all acting in good faith in that regard.

The EPA report is a research paper. As is the case with any research, it provides a useful contribution to the debate around land use. However, I can clarify for Deputy Mattie McGrath that it is not Government policy to quadruple the amount of forestry. It is Government policy to increase it from 11% to approximately 18%, which is not even double. It is also not Government policy to reduce the amount of livestock in Ireland by one third.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

Tell that to the Green Party.

The Taoiseach

It is a research document produced by the EPA and it should not be dismissed. It is a useful scientific contribution to an important debate on land use but it is not Government policy.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Can we ask for some clarity-----

Deputy Alan Kelly

We seek clarification.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

-----from the Taoiseach as to what is meant by the commitment he made? Does he mean the amendment, as described by me and Deputy Kelly, will be accepted and brought into the legislation? We need clarity on that.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Taoiseach may respond.

The Taoiseach

I will ask the Minister to answer.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

If someone could give clarification, it would be very helpful.

Minister for Health (Deputy Stephen Donnelly)

I will give the House a quick update. We got the proposed wording from the 221+ group, with which the Department has been engaged extensively. We have sought legal advice. There are legal issues with the wording that was proposed. We are now having an ongoing conversation about wording that will be legally robust and essentially fits the intent. It is, therefore, ongoing. My hope is that we can find wording by tomorrow evening and I propose that we proceed with tomorrow evening. If agreement cannot be found, obviously we can think again. We want to try to do this, insofar as possible, by consensus. There have been ongoing efforts through the weekend and today to try to find wording that will work.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

If those efforts fail, the Minister will adjourn the matter.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We are not going back into this discussion. I have given great leeway on it. It is an important issue. At this point, the question is-----

Deputy Alan Kelly

In fairness, the Minister answered.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Yes, he answered.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I thank the Deputies very much. Are the proposed arrangements for this week's business hereby agreed? Agreed. Bogfaimid ar aghaidh anois go dtí reachtaíocht atá geallta nó beartais Rialtais. Deputies have up to a minute and I ask for their co-operation.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

A report published in the Irish Independent presents in very stark terms the recruitment and retention crisis in An Garda Síochána. One in four Garda stations has seen a drop in staff, and 42 stations have no gardaí permanently assigned to them. In my constituency of Dublin Central we have lost 30 gardaí in the past year. The truth is that the Taoiseach's Government has overseen a significant depletion in Garda numbers over the decade it has been in power. When it comes to recruitment, we have another case of the Government setting big targets and falling very short on delivery. There simply are not enough gardaí to adequately police some areas, despite the very best efforts of those working on the front line. This creates real worry for people that their communities are not safe and are not protected from crime. How will the Government now respond to this crisis and ensure that An Garda Síochána is staffed to the required level?

The Taoiseach

An Garda Síochána is made up of sworn gardaí and Garda staff. We anticipate that both will increase in number this year. We have provided funding for more than 1,000 gardaí to be recruited this year. This will be enough to cover retirements and resignations, and will result in an increase in the total number of gardaí. While training was disrupted as a consequence of the restrictions related to Covid, the total number of gardaí who completed or began training last year was almost 500. We expect to see some of them coming through in the next few months.

Deputy Ivana Bacik

The average cost of rent in Ireland in December was €1,733 per month. This is according to the latest Daft.ie market report. We know that after tax, the take-home pay for a full-time worker on the minimum wage now stands at just €1,724 per month. This is nearly €10 less than the average monthly rent. We know that rents have more than doubled in the past decade and have jumped nearly 14% in the last year alone. Homes are now unaffordable for so many, and unavailable too as the market is chronically starved of homes. There are now just 1,000 or so homes across the country available for rent, according to Daft.ie. We know that everybody in the State is touched by the housing crisis. Last Thursday evening, we in the Labour Party put forward a set of eight emergency measures. We called on the Government to adopt these measures to enable the Government to urgently address the housing crisis and this chronic shortage of housing supply. It was unfortunate that the Minister, Deputy Darragh O'Brien, did not even join us for that debate. We ask that the Taoiseach would now withdraw the countermotion to ensure we do not have a division in the House on the constructive proposals we are putting forward to address the housing crisis as an emergency measure.

The Taoiseach

I thank the Deputy. Unfortunately we do not have data that are as good as we would like on real rents paid in Ireland. We should have data from the census and also the Residential Tenancies Board data when they come through. There is no doubt that a lot of people are paying very high rents and are struggling to pay them. This is why we brought in the rent credit, for which some 170,000 people have already applied. I encourage those who have not yet applied to do so. The Minister has put down his countermotion and there will be an opportunity to debate it in the House.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

We have just seen the announcement for the St. Patrick's Day visits. The Attorney General is normally part of the visit to Washington D.C. with the Taoiseach, which is a very important visit. In a breach with that protocol up to now, the list today shows that the Attorney General will be a solo dignitary to Argentina and Chile. There seems to be a deviation from the Attorney General being the legal adviser to the Government to taking a more political role. Why has this happened in this case? Why has there been a deviation?

The Taoiseach

I would have to check with the Tánaiste on that. The Tánaiste drew up the schedule for the visits for St. Patrick's Day. I do not believe it is correct to say that the Attorney General always travels to Washington D.C. with the Taoiseach. It has happened in the past. In the past the Attorney General has not travelled at all, and in the past the Attorney General has travelled to other locations. I believe I am correct in saying that what the Deputy has outlined is not the case. I can only remember one occasion when the last Attorney General came to Washington D.C., so I do not believe the Deputy's point is quite accurate.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

In one of the richest countries in the world we now have tens of thousands - if not hundreds of thousands - of people dependent on food banks for food.

Hundreds of thousands of people are now in arrears with their energy and utility bills. Some 12,000 people are officially homeless in emergency accommodation, but actually the numbers are multiples of that. I believe the Government's economic subcommittee is meeting this Thursday to discuss possible measures to address all of this. I put it to the Taoiseach that the Government has been fiddling around the edges and has been totally ineffective in preventing the cruel hardship and the drive into poverty and homelessness for tens of thousands of people. We need dramatic emergency measures to address the cost-of-living housing crisis, such as increasing pensions, welfare and wages at least to the level of inflation-----

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I thank the Deputy. We are way over time.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

-----introducing rent controls and, crucially, stopping evictions into homelessness.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I call on the Taoiseach to respond.

The Taoiseach

I do not think that is a fair characterisation. There has been a very strong and meaningful response from the Government to help people with the rising cost of living. There was the auto-double payment of social welfare and pensions; a double payment of child benefit; a €400 fuel allowance; a €500 working family payment; €500 for people with disabilities, blind people and those on the invalidity pension; €200 for those on the living alone allowance; €500 to carers; a Christmas bonus; a €12 increase in weekly payments that kicked in recently; the largest increase in weekly payments-----

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

Why are they going to food banks if they are all doing so well?

The Taoiseach

-----since the mid-2000s; the largest ever expansion of the fuel allowance scheme; increased thresholds for the working family payment; a major expansion of the hot meals schools programme; an increase in the back-to-school clothing and footwear allowance; two fuel allowance lump sums; universal energy credits of €600 for every household; a reduction in student fees; a 25% reduction in childcare costs; a 20% reduction in public transport fees; a reduction in the drug payment scheme for medicine costs; reductions in VAT; and reductions in excise. We will meet later in the week to see what else we can do to help.

Deputy Paul Kehoe

Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

Tell that to the people going to food banks.

Deputy Peter Fitzpatrick

The military is in the grip of a staffing retention crisis following a mass exodus due to pay, pensions and conditions. Last November, the then Minister for Defence, Deputy Coveney, secured an extension of service for sergeants who had joined on post-1994 contracts and were due to retire on age grounds. One of my constituents is a 50-year-old private who has served for almost 29 years, including on seven overseas trips. He is a highly trained individual with level 3 qualifications, but is being forced to retire. It is ludicrous to replace him and to train another qualified person when this man is fit, capable and eager to retain his role. Retaining these experienced personnel is a key enabler in strengthening the capability of our Defence Forces. What is going to happen when the ever-depleting backbone of the Defence Forces becomes so rare that they cannot pass on their experience to new recruits? Since the extension of service was obtained for sergeants, the Department of Defence has been advocating for change, but the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform has been stalling on permitting this solution. I ask the Taoiseach to step in to ensure this happens. Is the Taoiseach aware that for the first time in more than eight years, the number of-----

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I call on the Taoiseach to respond.

Deputy Peter Fitzpatrick

-----personnel has fallen to below 8,000?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We are way over time.

Deputy Peter Fitzpatrick

This man is willing to work. He is medically fit. I ask the Taoiseach for action now.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

No. I call on the Taoiseach to respond. I thank Deputy Fitzpatrick.

The Taoiseach

I have never been a particular fan of compulsory retirement ages. If somebody is fit and healthy and able to continue in their work, by and large we should allow them to do so, in particular at a time when we are struggling to recruit and retain staff across the board. I know there are some particular complications in this matter linked to contracts and so on, and there is engagement between the Minister for Defence and the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform on it.

Deputy Peter Fitzpatrick

Why? It is only common sense to do so.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Morale is on the floor in An Garda Síochána. The issue is not compulsory retirement but people are flocking away from the job. I salute Garda Pat Kelly who recently finished his term in Carrick-on-Suir. The number of gardaí in Carrick-on-Suir, Clonmel, Cahir and Cashel is appallingly and frighteningly low. How far will the Government leave this go before it gives proper recognition and support? I refer to boots on the ground, not officials in offices, bodycams or anything else. We need members of the force. An Garda Síochána in Cahir recently held a magnificent party for senior citizens. It was a wonderful community event, which has been held every year. This is the 24th year. Garda numbers are needed in order to cover each other. In Carrick-on-Suir, for instance, there is only enough gardaí to fill one roster, not to mind three or four. It is a frightening situation, and it is so unfair to the gardaí who, by and large, do an excellent job. I support them always, but they need the resources and the numbers to be safe and to keep the community safe.

The Taoiseach

I appreciate that gardaí all over the country are under a lot of pressure. As our population increases, we need to increase the number of gardaí as well. The number of gardaí is now over 14,000, up from 12,800 back in 2015 when it was at its lowest in recent years.

Funding is available to recruit 1,000 new gardaí this year. There will also be additional Garda staff. It is reasonable to point out that of the 14,000 sworn gardaí in An Garda, approximately 100 resigned last year. That is a resignation rate of about 1%. In the modern world, where people tend not to have jobs for life in the way they did, a 1% resignation rate in an organisation is well below average.

Deputy Michael McNamara

Is the Taoiseach aware, despite what one might be led to believe, that the size of the national herd in Ireland is the same size now as it was when we joined the European Union 50 years ago? In that time, emissions of greenhouse gases have increased exponentially in other sectors in Ireland. The demand for meat and dairy produce has also increased exponentially around the world. If it is not met from Ireland, it will be met from elsewhere, notably, South America. What has changed is that Irish farmers have incurred huge debts as a result of being encouraged by successive Governments, of which the Taoiseach was a member, to move from beef to dairy. Many farmers invested vast amounts of money, encouraged by the Government and paid out by the banks, that they now owe. Does the Taoiseach understand their frustration as we now talk about culling a national herd back to numbers less than when we joined the EU? They feel they are being scapegoated for other sectors.

Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine (Deputy Martin Heydon)

The only people talking about culling the national herd seem to be from the Opposition. Ultimately, we are talking about a Government climate action plan that sets very ambitious targets for how we reduce our emissions profile while continuing to produce top-quality food, as our farmers do throughout the country. Farmers who made the significant investments the Deputy talked about have been supported by the State through targeted agricultural modernisation scheme grants, and other supports in those areas, in order to be able to produce that food more sustainably into the future. We will continue to support our agriculture and farming sector in doing that.

Deputy Michael McNamara

Is the EPA report an Opposition report?

Deputy Martin Heydon

It is an academic report that we will consider.

Deputy Niamh Smyth

I welcome this morning's allocation by the Department of Transport for our local and regional roads. County Cavan is getting €17 million and County Monaghan is getting €16 million. The Minister for Community and Rural Development, Deputy Humphreys, recently announced the local improvement scheme, which is very welcome, especially in rural counties such as the one in which I live. The big-ticket item for Cavan County Council, however, will be the Virginia bypass. Cavan County Council is almost ready to present the finalised identification of preferred routes. I ask that the Taoiseach be fully behind the Minister for Transport in making sure that bypass is delivered.

The Taoiseach

I have been to Virginia many times. It is a lovely town but it needs a bypass. I can give assurance to the Deputy that funding will be provided this year to advance that project. It is not possible to do every road project every year. There has to be a pipeline but the priority will be bypassing towns that need a bypass. Virginia is certainly one of those towns.

Deputy Paul Kehoe

Last year, the Government responded to the cost-of-living crisis by announcing universal and targeted measures. Now that the economy and our public finances are in good order, the Ministers for Finance and Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform will meet party leaders, along with the Minister for Social Protection, to consider what measures will be announced for the spring period. A huge number of working families are still feeling the brunt of the cost-of-living crisis. I urge the Taoiseach to retain the universal measures and supports the Government put in place, whether these are the energy credits, excise on fuels, childcare, tax credits and so on. The Minister for Social Protection, Deputy Humphreys, announced a very generous welfare package. I urge the Taoiseach to keep the universal measures in place.

The Taoiseach

I thank the Deputy for raising the important issue of the cost of living. We have seen inflation slow in the past few weeks. It is easing but there is a big difference between inflation slowing down and the cost of living going down. The cost of living is not going down but is still rising, which is hurting many families and people. We have not made any decisions yet. We will do so over the course of the next few days and sign off on them at Tuesday's Cabinet meeting. The Deputy's point is well made that we need targeted measures for those who need the most help, in addition to universal measures, because there is not a family in Ireland that is not being impacted in some way by the high cost of living.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

The Ombudsman and the Ombudsman for Children appeared before the Joint Committee on Autism this morning, as did representatives of the Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission, IHREC.

Among the many issues that were raised around the provision of services for autistic people, a recurring theme was the need to revisit the Disability Act 2005. The Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, recently presented our fifth and sixth periodic reports to the Committee on the Rights of the Child at the UN, the response to which issued just last week. In that response, the committee recommends that the State reviews relevant legislation, including the Disability Act, to bring it in line with a human rights-based approach to disability, particularly with regard to the definition of "disability" and with due regard to the needs of Roma and Traveller children. In response to that recommendation, does the Government plan to review the Disability Act 2005? If so, when might such a review happen?

The Taoiseach

The year 2005 is a long time ago and a lot has happened and changed since then, so a review probably is timely, but I have not had a chance to discuss that with the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, or the Minister, Deputy O'Gorman. Perhaps the Deputy will allow me to come back to him with more detail when I can.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

Many people will be familiar with Thomas the Tank Engine but not so many will be familiar with Leo the slowcoach, but Leo the slowcoach is well known in County Meath. People in Meath have been waiting for more than 20 years for a rail line to be built. More workers left Meath today to go to work than stayed in the county, and that happens in no other county. Meath people travel longer and farther distances than people in any other county. They are in a commuter hell. We have been promised a rail line for 20 years and, shockingly, even at this stage, no money has been set aside or ring-fenced for this project, and we are being asked to wait for potentially another 16 to 19 years before the rail line is built. Will the Taoiseach remain a slowcoach or will he start to put aside or ring-fence the money for this project and bring it forward?

The Taoiseach

These big infrastructure projects take time, unfortunately.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

It was built in three years with picks and shovels.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Let the Taoiseach respond, Deputy.

The Taoiseach

I wish they could be done more quickly. It is Government policy to extend the train line from Pace, Dunboyne, to Navan. It would benefit the Deputy's constituency and mine, as the trains would pick up passengers in my constituency too, so I am keen to see the project progress, but these things take time. In the meantime, we need to make sure we improve bus services, in particular, at least until the train line is ready.,

Deputy Fergus O'Dowd

The vast majority of the 8,600 citizens who died from Covid were over 65 years of age. Very frequently their passing was a matter of great upset and trauma for everybody concerned, most of all the families, who could not be present because of the nature of the illness. We promised in our programme for Government to establish a commission on care to assess how we care and to examine alternatives to care for older people, both at home and in nursing homes. Is this a priority? What is the timeline to commence this very important promised commission?

The Taoiseach

It is absolutely a priority for the Government and for me personally to have the commission on care established. I hope to have it established by the middle of this year. We have had a number of commissions look into particular matters in real depth under the Government. There has been the Commission on Pensions, the Future of Media Commission, the Commission on Taxation and Welfare and the Housing Commission. To be done properly, however, they cannot all be done at the same time. That does not mean that any one issue is more important than the other but, given that the Housing Commission will finish up its work quite soon, we hope to have the commission on care established by the middle of the year.

Deputy Michael Collins

Up to December 2022, two driver testers were based in and working out of Skibbereen. Those two testers were relocated from Skibbereen. A full-time tester was appointed once again at the end of December. However, there is an urgent need for a second full-time tester in Skibbereen to cater for the huge area of west Cork. We have a shocking transport service in west Cork, and everybody depends on a car. Many of our younger people are trying to get a driving test and now the waiting list is seven months for them as they try to get on with their lives for work or for other reasons. I brought this issue up with the previous Taoiseach and failed to get anywhere. I am pleading with the new Taoiseach to try to intervene to get a second driver tester appointed to Skibbereen. It is a huge area. We are talking from Ballinhassig out west to Skibbereen, obviously, up into Beara and the Mizen Head and Sheep's Head peninsulas, a huge area to cover with one tester. It is not fair on the young people of west Cork.

The Taoiseach

I will have to follow that up with the Minister for Transport.

I appreciate that there are delays around the country in people getting their driving tests in a timely manner. I know that is particularly important in rural areas where people need their cars to get to work and college. I will check that with the Minister for Transport and come back to the Deputy in writing.

Deputy Réada Cronin

I want to raise the issue of the lack of school places for children starting in our excellent primary schools in Kilcock. These are young children with rights to attend their local schools and I am receiving an increasing number of emails from their parents. Too many families are looking for too few places in north Kildare. They are just after getting out of childcare and now they find that when they are depending on their national schools, there are no places for them. I had a meeting with the Minister, Deputy Foley, last week, on the lack of school places in north Kildare and her aide assured me that the geographic information system, GIS, flagged where extra schools were necessary but it is clearly not working. What is the plan for these children starting in our excellent schools in Kilcock? The Taoiseach was with me at the reopening of St. Joseph's National School in the town. These parents need to know and our young citizens need to have their rights vindicated.

Minister of State at the Department of Education (Deputy Josepha Madigan)

This is an opportune question in that I had a meeting yesterday with the National Council for Special Education and the Department on pinch points around the country, and we discussed Kilcock. I reassure the Deputy that a lot of ongoing and intensive engagement is happening in the background with schools in the locality. We are confident about September 2023 and we hope to give those reassurances in early course this year. We will be back to the Deputy on that.

Deputy Gino Kenny

In today's edition of The Irish Times, new data suggests that almost 1,300 people died over the winter due to delays in hospital admissions from accident and emergency departments. That is 174 higher than the previous winter. To put this into context, this exceeds the 155 people who unfortunately died in road traffic accidents in Ireland last year. The report states, "...questions needed to be answered as to why patients were having to wait longer despite the addition of 132 beds last year" to the health service. Why is this acceptable in 2023 in Ireland?

Deputy Stephen Donnelly

The extrapolation used has been looked at by the Department and it has pointed out that there is a wide variety of views around the world on what the right figures are. Nonetheless, we are all aware that the longer waits in emergency departments come with a patient safety risk attached. It is an ongoing conversation I am having with the Department and I have had that conversation with the Chief Medical Officer as well. Ultimately, the aim is to reduce, insofar as is possible, the pressures through the winter to make sure people get the access they need and deserve.

Deputy Jennifer Murnane O'Connor

I met Carlow County Fire and Rescue Service members the other day and four of them told me that they are nearing 58 years of age. They want to be able to stay on when they turn 60 but the current rules do not provide for this. All other county council staff, as the Taoiseach knows, can stay on until 70 years of age. It is widely known that retirement age is only 55 for these firefighters and an annual medical has to be passed for them to stay on, which is totally understandable. If they fail, naturally enough they have to retire and the limit is 60 years of age. We are facing a crisis in the emergency services. Can the Government consider extending the retirement age across the country, once staff pass their medical, to at least 63 or 64?

The Taoiseach

That is something we are examining. As I said earlier, I have never been a big fan of rigid or compulsory retirement ages if people are fit and healthy and are able to pass a fitness test. Why would we not allow them to stay on, particularly at a time when we are finding it so hard to get staff across society and the economy because of full employment? It might have been different ten or 15 years ago when unemployment was high and we were trying to create opportunities for young people but there is no sector of our economy or society that is not struggling to get staff because of full employment. That makes us rethink our attitude to allowing older people or even not so old people to work for a bit longer.