Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 22 Feb 2023

Vol. 1034 No. 1

Gnó na Dála - Business of Dáil

Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach (Deputy Hildegarde Naughton)

I move:

"It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders or yesterday's Order of Business, the arrangements for today's business shall be modified

as follows:

(a) the following arrangements shall apply in relation to the Motion re Anniversary of the Invasion of Ukraine by the Russian Federation:

(i) the motion shall be taken immediately following oral Parliamentary Questions to the Taoiseach and shall be followed by the Sos;

(ii) the order of speaking and allocation of time shall be as follows:

- opening speech by a Minister or Minister of State - ten minutes;

- speech by representative of Sinn Féin - ten minutes;

- speeches by representatives of the Labour Party, Social Democrats, People-Before-Profit-Solidarity, the Regional Group, the Rural Independent Group

and the Independent Group - five minutes per party or group; and

- a speech in response by a Minister or Minister of State - five minutes;

(iii) and members may share time; and

(b) the proceedings on the Mother and Baby Institutions Payment Scheme Bill 2022 shall, if not previously concluded, stand adjourned at 9.25 p.m."

An Ceann Comhairle

I call Deputy Pringle to speak as he wishes to raise a point.

Deputy Thomas Pringle

In respect of the motion on the war in Ukraine, this was discussed at the Business Committee last week and it was agreed that it would be put back to be considered by this week's Business Committee. This is coming completely out of the blue without any consultation with members of the Business Committee. We have not seen a motion and there is no text in respect of that. I submitted amendments to the previous motion that was put forward. It appears that this is a Government motion. What is the situation? We do not even have the wording for this motion and we are expected to adopt it. That is just completely wrong. This is a cack-handed way for the Government to handle this.

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn

A motion was circulated, which was drafted by the Department of Foreign Affairs. My clear understanding from the Business Committee was that an attempt would be made to draft a motion which could obtain the consensus and support of all sides of the House. That was what was agreed by the Business Committee. Rather than doing, we now have a Government motion on which we do not have the wording. I do not understand what has happened. There was an attempt to get consensus, to have the agreement of the House on a motion, and that appears to have been done away with now. There needs to be clarification as to what happened to that attempt. Where do we go from here?

An Ceann Comhairle

I understand that the Government motion has just been circulated to all Members.

Deputy Thomas Pringle

No, it has not.

An Ceann Comhairle

I understand it has. I call Deputy Mattie McGrath and I will return to Deputy Pringle if necessary.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I missed the Business Committee meeting last Thursday but the account I heard was that the matter would be discussed at this week's meeting, with the hope of getting unanimous agreement on it. This is the first I or our group have heard of this, with it being presented on the floor of the House like this, and I object to that.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

This is the Government trying to pull a fast one. Some of us will be in the Chamber for the entire time between now and when that debate starts. If we and many of the leaders are here, how on earth can we try to deal with Taoiseach's Questions and immediately after that, deal with a motion we have not seen and on which we will have no opportunity to submit amendments? That is completely pulling a fast one. It is undemocratic and is gameplaying by the Government. It should withdraw this motion and put it back in, as per the arrangements, which is for it to go through the Business Committee and, if necessary, be dealt with tomorrow.

Deputy Ivana Bacik

I wish to express my disappointment at the way this is being handled by Government. As it happens, the Labour Party was happy to sign up to the original draft of the motion circulated to us by Government. We believe it is very important that all of us, on a cross-party basis, express solidarity with the people of Ukraine in the way that was originally intended. When that motion was not agreed, we understood a new version might be circulated for statements tomorrow. This announcement was made by the Minister of State, Deputy Naughton, just as that motion was being circulated to us. My email states that it came in at 12.42 p.m., which was five minutes ago. There is new wording which we have not seen. Many of us are due to speak in this House between now and when that motion is due to be taken. It is very unfortunate that we would see this matter being handed in such a divisive way. This is something on which we should all be able to come together to express solidarity. As others have, I ask the Taoiseach and the Minister of State, Deputy Naughton, to withdraw the motion and bring it back for discussion tomorrow, which indeed is closer to the crucial and terrible one year anniversary on Friday. That would have been a better way to have dealt with this, rather than to try to infiltrate and shoehorn it into today's business schedule, which is fairly packed. That is not appropriate. It would have been better to do it tomorrow, as we had understood it would be.

An Ceann Comhairle

I believe Deputy Pringle wishes to make some point of clarification.

Deputy Thomas Pringle

To clarify, the motion was circulated at 12.43 p.m. as the discussion was taking place. How can a motion be circulated to members in that way?

The Taoiseach

I appreciate it is short notice and that it is not best practice. There was an incorporeal Cabinet meeting this morning to sign off on the motion. There was an attempt, I understand, at the Business Committee to agree an all-party motion. That was not possible because some members wanted to include language that was not in our view fully supportive of Ukraine. This matter was discussed at Cabinet, and there not being the possibility of agreeing an all-party motion because of the views of certain members, which they are entitled to hold, the Government decided to put down its own motion. It is very short. It can be read in a minute or two and there will be plenty of time for Members to do that before we have the discussion later on today. The Government is free to put down its own motions.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

There is no time to put down amendments.

The Taoiseach

We do not stop other parties putting down motions and Private Members' Bills and the Government is free to put in a motion if it so wishes.

Deputy Mick Barry

We have to put them in three days before.

An Ceann Comhairle

Just to be very clear, if anybody wants to table an amendment they can do so-----

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

I will be in here for Taoiseach's Questions.

An Ceann Comhairle

----between now and when the matter is taken, or in their contribution they can propose an amendment. I remind Members that there are 77,000 Ukrainian people resident in this country. I believe they would like to see us all being able to unite around a common cause. I call Deputy McDonald.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

I entirely agree with the Ceann Comhairle and I believe it is very important that we have a unity of purpose on this matter.

I have not seen the wording of the motion. I anticipate that we can find words that accommodate the vast majority, if not all, Deputies. However, if this is a serious matter, worthy of effort not to split the House, why this sudden rush for today? As Deputy Bacik correctly said, tomorrow is in fact closer to the awful anniversary of Putin's criminal invasion. Surely we are entitled to time to digest and consider the motion and to prepare our remarks, if this is to be a serious effort by the House and not simply box ticking, which I would find most regrettable. I suggest to the Taoiseach, now that we have the motion, that we should take the matter tomorrow and give people sufficient and adequate time to prepare. It is only reasonable, I would have thought, and it is an orderly way for the Government to do its business.

An Ceann Comhairle

As Chair of the Business Committee, I was not in a position to attend last week's meeting and Deputy Naughten chaired it. However, my very clear understanding was that while attempts were made to get agreement on the motion, which I thought very balanced in how it had been prepared, such agreement was not possible. Notwithstanding the short time that this matter has been given for people to concentrate on it, I assume the Government proceeded on the basis of what happened last week.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

For clarity, how is it this matter was not raised on the Order of Business yesterday?

An Ceann Comhairle

I do not-----

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

This is a different type of intervention and it is not the way to do business. Every Member in this House deserves notice and the respect to get the adequate work done in order that this is a serious and appropriate reflection and joint enterprise on this awful anniversary of the slaughter and mayhem the Ukrainian people face.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

In fairness to the secretariat of the Business Committee, they ring us all the time, but they obviously did not have time today. Why was it not put on to the Order of Business? We got numerous calls from the secretariat with regard to the Order of Business yesterday. There were at least three changes. This is a sleight of hand by the Government. Our group will certainly not support this now. We need a bit of respect and time, as an Opposition group, to see the motion and get some understanding of it, or have dialogue with the secretariat. I am not blaming the secretariat; it is not its fault. We always have a back and forth. It is appreciated and we do our best to facilitate. This is not acceptable, by a long shot.

Deputy Ivana Bacik

I express, in strong terms, my disappointment and concern at the way this has been done. For those of us who signed up in good faith to the original text of the motion - I have now read the Government's proposed motion that just came through - it is most inappropriate that there is such a short timeframe for Opposition leaders to prepare significant enough speeches of five or ten minutes. This is most unfair and it is most unfortunate to do this about such considerably important issues. As the Ceann Comhairle said, there are so many Ukrainian citizens here who have an entitlement to expect a reasoned, compassionate and thoughtful debate on this important motion, as we mark the anniversary of this brutal invasion by Putin of a democratic, sovereign country in Europe. It is very unfortunate it is being done in this way and I do not see why it cannot be done tomorrow, as was originally intended. My office had heard, as I had when I came in here for Leaders' Questions, that it would be tomorrow.

The Taoiseach

I appreciate this is not ideal, but the assessment and briefing the Ceann Comhairle got is correct.

Deputy Thomas Pringle

No, it is not.

The Taoiseach

Efforts were made to agree an all-party motion. That was not possible. The Government discussed the matter on Tuesday-----

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

Please.

The Taoiseach

-----and the proposal the Tánaiste has put forward. He has put forward a motion.

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn

That is just not accurate.

An Ceann Comhairle

Please.

The Taoiseach

What you said, a Cheann Comhairle, was accurate.

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn

The Ceann Comhairle was not there. How can you know if you were not there, a Cheann Comhairle? You were not there.

An Ceann Comhairle

Please, do not interrupt the Taoiseach.

The Taoiseach

My understanding is the same as yours, a Cheann Comhairle. Efforts were made at the Business Committee to agree an all-party motion. That was not possible. As a result, were we going to have a moment of silence and no motion? We, as a Government, did not think that was an adequate response and lacked true solidarity with the people of Ukraine, those living there and those living here, and we put down this motion. It may take 45 seconds or a minute to read. Members have time to read it. They have time to put down motions and amendments, if they want, but a moment of silence is not enough and there should be-----

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Fair------

The Taoiseach

-----a motion.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

The Government should table it tomorrow.

The Taoiseach

If there has to be a vote on it, so be it.

Deputy Thomas Pringle

A point of information has to be put forward. With all due respect to you, a Cheann Comhairle, and to your interpretation of what happened at the meeting, you were not there. Through no fault of your own, you were not there. That is not the interpretation of what happened at the meeting last week. I was there, as were other Members. Amendments were put forward to the wording of the motion. A suggestion was made that we could have a minute's silence, rather than a motion that would be acceptable to everybody. It was agreed that it would be considered, that we would take it away and look at it and come back and agree what could be done. None of that has happened. This has come in from the Government today. The reason it is happening today is clear. The voting block is on today and the Government wants to make sure there are no Members about tomorrow. That is why it is not happening tomorrow.

An Ceann Comhairle

Hopefully, we can have the minute's silence tomorrow.

Deputy Hildegarde Naughton

Efforts were made at the Business Committee to try to get a cross-party consensus on the wording on a motion to support the people of Ukraine. Unfortunately, that was not possible and Cabinet decided to put forward our own Government motion to show our support. I hope that will get the support of the House-----

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

The Government should have announced that yesterday.

Question put: "That the business proposal be agreed to."

The Dáil divided: Tá, 63; Níl, 55; Staon, 0.

Tá

• Brophy, Colm.
• Bruton, Richard.
• Burke, Colm.
• Butler, Mary.
• Cahill, Jackie.
• Calleary, Dara.
• Cannon, Ciarán.
• Carey, Joe.
• Carroll MacNeill, Jennifer.
• Chambers, Jack.
• Collins, Niall.
• Costello, Patrick.
• Coveney, Simon.
• Cowen, Barry.
• Crowe, Cathal.
• Dillon, Alan.
• Donnelly, Stephen.
• Donohoe, Paschal.
• Duffy, Francis Noel.
• Durkan, Bernard J.
• Farrell, Alan.
• Flanagan, Charles.
• Fleming, Sean.
• Haughey, Seán.
• Heydon, Martin.
• Higgins, Emer.
• Hourigan, Neasa.
• Humphreys, Heather.
• Lahart, John.
• Leddin, Brian.
• Martin, Catherine.
• Martin, Micheál.
• Matthews, Steven.
• McAuliffe, Paul.
• McConalogue, Charlie.
• McGrath, Michael.
• McHugh, Joe.
• Moynihan, Aindrias.
• Moynihan, Michael.
• Naughton, Hildegarde.
• Noonan, Malcolm.
• O'Brien, Darragh.
• O'Brien, Joe.
• O'Callaghan, Jim.
• O'Connor, James.
• O'Donnell, Kieran.
• O'Donovan, Patrick.
• O'Dowd, Fergus.
• O'Gorman, Roderic.
• O'Sullivan, Christopher.
• O'Sullivan, Pádraig.
• Ó Cathasaigh, Marc.
• Ó Cuív, Éamon.
• Phelan, John Paul.
• Rabbitte, Anne.
• Richmond, Neale.
• Ring, Michael.
• Ryan, Eamon.
• Smyth, Niamh.
• Smyth, Ossian.
• Stanton, David.
• Troy, Robert.
• Varadkar, Leo.

Níl

• Bacik, Ivana.
• Barry, Mick.
• Berry, Cathal.
• Boyd Barrett, Richard.
• Brady, John.
• Browne, Martin.
• Buckley, Pat.
• Cairns, Holly.
• Clarke, Sorca.
• Collins, Joan.
• Collins, Michael.
• Connolly, Catherine.
• Conway-Walsh, Rose.
• Cronin, Réada.
• Crowe, Seán.
• Cullinane, David.
• Daly, Pa.
• Doherty, Pearse.
• Donnelly, Paul.
• Funchion, Kathleen.
• Gannon, Gary.
• Gould, Thomas.
• Guirke, Johnny.
• Healy-Rae, Danny.
• Healy-Rae, Michael.
• Howlin, Brendan.
• Kenny, Gino.
• Kerrane, Claire.
• Mac Lochlainn, Pádraig.
• McDonald, Mary Lou.
• McGrath, Mattie.
• McNamara, Michael.
• Mitchell, Denise.
• Munster, Imelda.
• Murphy, Verona.
• Nash, Ged.
• Naughten, Denis.
• Nolan, Carol.
• O'Callaghan, Cian.
• O'Donoghue, Richard.
• O'Reilly, Louise.
• O'Rourke, Darren.
• Ó Broin, Eoin.
• Ó Murchú, Ruairí.
• Ó Ríordáin, Aodhán.
• Ó Snodaigh, Aengus.
• Pringle, Thomas.
• Quinlivan, Maurice.
• Ryan, Patricia.
• Sherlock, Sean.
• Smith, Bríd.
• Stanley, Brian.
• Tóibín, Peadar.
• Ward, Mark.
• Whitmore, Jennifer.

Staon

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Hildegarde Naughton and Marc Ó Cathasaigh; Níl, Deputies Pádraig Mac Lochlainn and Mattie McGrath.

Question declared carried.