Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 28 Feb 2023

Vol. 1034 No. 3

Credit Union (Amendment) Bill 2022 [Seanad]: Second Stage

Minister of State at the Department of Finance (Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill)

I move: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time".

I am pleased to present the Credit Union (Amendment) Bill 2022 to the Dáil today. I want to begin by thanking my predecessor as Minister of State at the Department of Finance with responsibility for credit unions, Deputy Fleming, for his work on the Bill. Under his stewardship, the Bill completed its passage through the Seanad in December 2022.

Although I have been Minister of State with responsibility for credit unions for just a brief period, I have already engaged well with the sector. I have met with the Irish League of Credit Unions, ILCU; the Credit Union Development Association, CUDA; the Credit Union Managers Association, CUMA; and the national supervisors forum, NSF. I have also met many individual credit unions over the past two months. I am very encouraged by the discussions I have had with credit union managers, directors and representative groups. I have met staff and volunteers who are eager for change and for credit unions to reach their potential. I look forward to continuing these engagements throughout my time as Minister of State.

I would like to take this opportunity to issue a challenge. I ask that collectively, we set a vision for where the credit unions can be a decade from now. The reputation of credit unions could not be stronger, but I believe the sector needs to have a strategic vision of where it wants to be in ten or 15 years, and how that will sit vis-à-vis other developments in financial services and fintech in particular. The vision for success can only be achieved through greater collaboration and co-operation between credit unions. I have every confidence that this challenge can be met and that Irish credit unions can continue to be vibrant and community-focused pillars of society that serve their members in a complete way in the financial services sector.

The pace of change in financial services is relentless, as can be seen in the rapid growth of fintech and digital banking. Change and technical development is exponential. A new and different set of players is continually connecting with customers and potential customers in a range of new and different ways. There is great opportunity for credit unions to harness new technology to broaden their membership and to grow lending.

Indeed, many have already begun to do so. However, I believe all credit union members should have access to the full services of community banking, regardless of size. This Bill will help the credit union movement to meet this objective and grow as the key provider of community banking as envisioned in the recently published retail banking review.

The Bill before us is the output of the policy framework review, which was a commitment in the programme for Government. The review involved the holding of over 50 engagements with stakeholders, involving more than 60 credit unions either individually or in groups. Additionally, representatives of many more credit unions were met at conferences throughout the country. I have had the opportunity to participate at such a conference already.

Officials at the Department have analysed over 100 proposals for legislative and regulatory change. They continued to do so following the publication of this Bill and its passage through the Seanad. We continued to receive suggestions and amendments from both the Central Bank and the sector until recent weeks. Therefore, there is ongoing collaboration on the Bill. This Bill is the product of that collaboration. I pay tribute to everyone in the sector for the work.

Credit unions, as we all know, are a key component of Irish life. They are social, community-based organisations providing vital financial services. I have seen at first hand the importance of the sector, as Deputies across the House will have done. Credit unions are the largest providers of personal unsecured loans, a lifeline for many families in moments of difficulty. They hold about €17 billion in savings and €5.5 billion in loans and serve 3.5 million members. There are approximately 200 credit unions, with over 400 branches, across the State.

Challenges arising from the negative interest rate environment have abated materially recently. This gives the credit unions a different opportunity, perhaps with a more positive tailwind going forward given the structure of their assets and loans.

The credit unions are co-operative, not-for-profit organisations. They are governed by over 2,500 volunteer directors and board oversight committee members, whose objective is to pursue the economic and social goals of members and wider local communities. This role is even more important given the withdrawal of Ulster Bank and KBC Bank and the closure of many bank branches around the State. Credit unions have a loan-to-asset ratio of just 28%, or €5.5 billion, of their €20 billion assets. This is far too low and is a strategic risk to the sector.

It is important that credit unions continue to develop plans for lending in the community, such as loans to small businesses, agri-lending, retrofit loans and mortgages, in a safe and cost-effective way through collaboration. However, it is crucial that credit unions extend their loan book to mortgages, including more substantial mortgages, and become a competitive force in the Irish mortgage market for their many members. This can be achieved through collaboration.

I am delighted to see the development of a sector-led credit union mortgage task force and look forward to the outcome of this group's work. It is clear that credit unions are engaged and ready for this opportunity. This is a promising start to an ambitious but really necessary programme of work and collaboration for the sector. Collaboration does work.

More than 75 credit unions now provide current accounts and debit cards and make up more than 10% of all new current account openings. Approximately 57,000 credit union current accounts were opened in the first ten months of 2022. All this is supported by two collaborative ventures. These are member owned and provide back-office support for the delivery of common products.

It is important that we acknowledge the challenges the sector faces while at the same time responding to them as a Government and explaining how the Government and, more importantly, the sector can address them and, hopefully, take advantage of the opportunities that arise through the changes being made by this Bill.

The Bill includes 56 sections, amending the Credit Union Act 1997. The explanatory memorandum sets out which of those amendments are policy, technical or consequential. It is heavily technical amending legislation, and it is the first substantive credit union legislation since the 2012 Act. The sector has changed a great deal in the past ten years. There are now fewer credit unions, but those remaining are much larger and provide a far greater range of products and services. The average asset size is now roughly €100 million, the largest being above €500 million.

Arising from the consultation with the sector, several important issues were identified. First, if a member's local credit union does not provide a current account, he or she cannot join a credit union that does, nor can the credit union introduce the member to another credit union. While the common bond may appear to protect from competition from other credit unions, it does nothing to prevent competition from banks or non-banks. The common bond should not be a barrier to members accessing the widest possible range of financial services. We need to reflect on this, and the Bill provides the opportunity to do so.

Second, while a local focus is a great strength of the credit union sector, it can lead to fragmentation. In many areas, there are multiple products, price points and varying terms and conditions. This makes it almost impossible for the sector to market itself as a nationwide option to consumers. This Bill contains measures to address these issues.

Collaboration is bolstered by allowing for corporate credit unions, a new type of regulated vehicle. Corporate credit unions are credit unions whose members consist of other credit unions.

The Bill will amend section 43 to clarify that credit unions can invest in ventures supporting credit unions. Enhanced governance is supported by including the option of making the manager a member of the board, in line with best practice in corporate governance; a reduction in the minimum number of board meetings to six per annum; a mandatory review of policies every three years, rather than annual, as at present, and the removal of the requirement for the board to review procedures; a reduction in five administrative issues to be mandatorily approved at board level; four amendments to streamline the work of the board oversight committee; and a provision to allow credit unions to seek deemed consent from members to receive the annual accounts by electronic means. The latter could save significantly on print and postage costs.

Member services are improved by providing flexibility to the common bond in four aspects: to allow for referral of members to other credit unions to provide a service not provided by the referring credit union; to allow for loan participation; to allow more businesses to be members; and to allow credit unions to lend to certain public sector entities designated by the Minister. Section 38 is amended to allow the Minister to set a maximum interest rate, currently fixed at 1% per month. To fully take advantage of this legislation, the sector must work together to lessen fragmentation, provide strategic vision and leadership and drive business-model change, as so many credit unions have already begun to do.

There are three non-legislative policy actions that I believe will make work easier for credit unions and enhance their engagement more broadly. First, the Central Bank, the Credit Union Advisory Committee, CUAC, and the Minister will have a memorandum of understanding to improve co-ordination on policy matters while respecting regulatory independence. Second, the Central Bank has agreed to introduce an enhanced engagement protocol with credit unions. Third, we have amended the terms of reference of a stakeholder group to widen attendance and enhance transparency with the sector. These are all pretty sensible changes that are in progress.

The core elements of the Bill come directly from detailed engagement with the credit union sector, supported by research from the CUAC. I have also sought feedback from or taken the opportunity to seek feedback from organisations such as Women's Aid, Men's Aid and Safe Ireland in regard to financial abuse training for credit union staff. By that, I mean policy around the third strategy on domestic, sexual and gender-based violence has to be reflected in every Department. Credit unions are in contact and have many members, and their staff are in contact. Financial abuse is a key part of coercive control, as we understand it, and it is incumbent on every Department to ask what it can do by way of a contribution to eradicating domestic, sexual and gender-based violence. I have simply used the Bill as an opportunity, a moment of reflection, to engage with the credit union managers' association and staff of credit unions to ask them for their views on where financial abuse is occurring or not within credit unions, on what more we can do to identify it, and on what training might be helpful or appropriate. Many credit unions have already done training, with Women's Aid in some cases. Is there a way in which we can enhance the protection of the community more broadly, even if it is simply through providing training to staff and directors of credit unions? That implies a significant number of people in every community. It is a contribution that the Department of Finance and the credit union sector can make to the broader Government strategy on domestic, sexual and gender-based violence.

To return to the technical part of the Bill, we have received significant feedback on the current draft of the Bill, both from the sector and the Central Bank. This is helpful and appropriate. I will be tabling amendments on Committee Stage in the Dáil based on that feedback. I am happy to discuss with Deputies the feedback from all the representative bodies and the Central Bank. That will strengthen the crucial proposals in the Bill to support credit unions to collaborate and grow their membership, and also to broaden their range of services for members.

There are some new provisions – this relates to the amendments – in regard to matters not previously raised during the policy review that we are now considering based on the second round of feedback. We will take time to ensure all of that feedback is properly considered from policy and legal perspectives. I look forward to debating this Bill with Deputies throughout its passage. I look forward to a constructive debate on it and I commend it to the Dáil.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

Cuirim fáilte roimh an díospóireacht seo. I welcome the opportunity to speak on behalf of Sinn Féin with respect to the Credit Union (Amendment) Bill 2022. At the outset, I commend the hard work that has been sustained over many years of the credit union movement to advance reforms that will allow our credit union sector to grow.

We all know in this House and further afield that credit unions are trusted. They understand what makes and strengthens communities. The credit union movement has a long and proud history in Ireland, North and South. This is demonstrated by the fact that we have one of the highest rates of credit union membership on this island. It is testament to the skill and dedication of the staff at the heart of that movement.

There are more than 204 credit unions in the State operating from more than 400 locations. It is a movement that places people above profits and prioritises members, not shareholders, and is embedded in our community. Credit unions provide so much to our communities and economy. They can do so much more, but only if they are supported and not held back.

Currently, all credit unions provide saving accounts, products and consumer credit, with many developing capabilities to provide current account and mortgage lending products. Others are expanding into SME lending and this can be empowered to thrive and increase the footprint in the financial services market.

The financial service landscape is undergoing rapid change. In this changing landscape, credit unions can and must be enabled to strengthen their footprint and impact in the sector. The retail banking review was an opportunity to take stock of that change and navigate a way forward. The review recognised that credit unions could play a greater role in the provision of retail banking products and services in the coming years. It also concluded that the credit union sector should be given the opportunity to transform into a community-based provider of universal retail banking products and services, and that the credit union sector has the capacity to provide additional competition in the banking market at scale.

The programme for Government committed to enable the credit union movement to grow as a key provider of community banking. This sentiment has been expressed many times over the years but without tangible results. The conclusion of the retail banking review and the commitments and success of the programme for Government must be delivered.

I want to recognise the perseverance of the credit union movement over many years to secure the legislative reform that would unlock its potential. The Credit Union (Amendment) Bill 2022, which is the first substantive credit union legislation since 2011, is an outworking of that work.

I will now turn to the main provisions of the Bill. The legislation contains 56 sections in total. I will restrict myself to some of the key proposals within it. We often speak of the important role credit unions play in our communities. It is a unique role that no other bank can replicate. This is tied up in the voluntary ethos that underpins the movement, something that is not referred to in the existing Act.

Section 4 of the Bill will include a new object in section 6 of the Act to promote and provide support to co-operative groups and voluntary associations, recognising the role credit unions play in hopefully providing a spur to further reform and action to support them. A key proposal of the legislation is the establishment of corporate credit unions. Currently, every credit union is a separate entity, each with its own board and management team. They have been prohibited from sharing business. While prohibited here, corporate credit unions exist in other countries, allowing them to achieve economies of scale and engage in activities that are simply not possible for individual credit unions. It is well recognised that even the largest credit unions do not have the capacity or scale to develop certain opportunities on their own. Credit unions are already collaborating to increase their offering. For example, we see that 69 credit unions are providing current accounts through collaborative models. We have three other vehicles that have been approved to support up to €900 million in lending to approved housing bodies, recognising the opportunities that collaboration presents to the credit union sector and the broader economy.

Sections 3, 5, 6, 7, 44 and 56 include provisions to provide for the establishment of corporate credit unions and that is an important step. An issue that has been frequently discussed is the interest rate ceiling of 1% on credit union loans. The justification for interest rate caps is strong, primarily to protect borrowers by safeguarding the affordability.

The interest rate ceiling applied to credit unions was reviewed by the Credit Union Advisory Committee in 2017. While underscoring the importance of the interest rate caps to safeguard consumer welfare, the committee recommended increasing the current rates from 1% to 2%. It is important to reflect on why this recommendation was made, the reason being that increasing the interest rate ceiling will provide credit unions with greater flexibility to risk-price loan products and in so doing may create the opportunity for new product offerings.

It should also be noted that this issue was examined in the report on interest rate restrictions for low-income borrowers by academics at University College Cork, UCC, on behalf of the Social Finance Foundation. The report was concerned with the ultra-high interest rate charged by moneylenders, which is something I sought to address through the Consumer Credit (Amendment) Bill. The report recommended a reduced interest rate cap for moneylenders together with an increase in the interest rate ceiling for credit unions so as to increase credit union participation in consumer lending. The motivation behind an increase in the interest rate ceiling is to offer credit unions flexibility and increase their product offering.

Section 19 of the Bill allows the Minister, after consultation with the advisory committee, to increase the interest rate ceiling by order. I would add that an increase in the loan interest rate ceiling does not mean that credit unions are required to raise their loan interest rates. They could apply their own rates within the parameters allowed under the interest rate ceiling.

One of the greatest strengths of the credit union movement is that each credit union is member owned. That underpins its ethos, with credit unions serving their members rather than transacting with customers. A feature of each credit union is the common bond and that is based on a social connection to the credit union. It could be based on connections such as an area in which someone lives or works or, indeed, his or her occupation.

In 2017, the Credit Union Advisory Committee considered the common bond and options to change the current arrangements. While opinion on this issue is not unanimous, the advisory committee recommended changes to allow credit unions to introduce business to other credit unions, although it did not specify what changes. In this regard, the Bill provides flexibility to the common bond in four key areas. First, it will allow credit unions to refer their members to other credit unions to provide services that they themselves do not offer, and for credit unions to provide services to members of other credit unions that do not provide them. Second, it will allow for loan participation between two or more credit unions. Third, it will allow for more businesses to be members of a credit union and fourth, it will allow for credit unions to lend to public sector bodies, as designated by the Minister.

The Bill also provides for several other measures. These include enhanced governance with measures aimed at allowing a greater focus on strategic planning by the board of directors. Provision in this regard includes reducing the minimum number of board meetings from ten to six per year and reducing the number of administrative issues that must be approved by the board of directors.

I want to end by acknowledging the work of the credit union movement and its engagement with the Department of Finance in drafting this legislation. The outworking of this legislation must be the commitment made in the programme for Government to support the credit union sector to allow it to grow. Currently, we know the credit union sector is only lending one quarter of the €20 billion of assets it holds. That is a wasted opportunity. What is the prize? The prize is to establish an environment in which the full potential of the credit union sector can be unlocked. We will listen to and work with the credit union movement to improve the legislation with regard to the amendments that will be brought forward on Committee Stage and ensure that the core objectives of this Bill are realised.

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

I welcome the fact that we are having this discussion on the Credit Union (Amendment) Bill 2022 and, indeed, the work credit unions are doing at the moment and continue to do. It is very important, of course, that we listen to what the credit union sector has been saying regarding the powers and ability it has.

I have a particularly keen interest in the issue and I have been quite vocal about the reforms this sector needs to help it not just survive but thrive.

I am a proud member of my local credit union and I have had a long-term interest in this sector. I chose this subject for my master's thesis and I have long had an interest in it. I recognise the even greater importance that credit unions can take on, especially in light of a commercial banking sector that is highly concentrated at this moment in time and is struggling to introduce changes.

Credit unions function a bit like the community banking model and the not-for-profit banking sector, albeit with certain differences. Credit unions are highly valued by their members and by the communities in which they are located. They have continually enjoyed the significant trust of their members. When we consider the banking crisis, the credit union sector did not cause the latest banking crisis, yet many of the regulations that were brought in following the crash treated the credit unions as if they did. The sector has long called for changes that would allow it to fulfil its greater potential to access different credit markets here.

I am glad to see the first major legislative change for the credit union sector since the 2012 Act. There are some good provisions in this Bill. A number of the recommendations that came out of the strategic banking review, which the credit union movement fed into, are positive. I will not go through all of them but I will address a few, particularly those that relate to interest rate regulations, new governance proposals and lending and other business creation provisions.

With regard to interest rate regulation, the new maximum rates that can be charged on loans is welcome. They will provide added security for their members. Credit unions are moneylenders. In fact, the original motivation for establishing the credit union movement was to stop moneylenders and, therefore, credit unions have not been known to charge overly usurious rates to their members, but there is no harm in having additional protections here. On the proposal around new governance structures, I believe the options are constructive. There are provisions to provide a new governance structure for appointing the chief executive officer, CEO, as a board member, and to reduce the number of annual meetings to six. Each credit union is its own organisation. Some may choose to opt into this and others may choose to opt out. In my experience, many credit union board members are volunteers who care passionately about their organisations. They may feel that six meetings annually is not sufficient, but what they do in that regard is a matter for them and I believe the correct thing to do.

On the new provisions around inter-credit union lending and business creation, I am aware that has been long sought by the movement. It would allow one credit union to provide a loan to another or have one refer business to another. This would help to drive commercial activity and credit to members. The ability to establish these corporate credit unions, following the US model, will help the movement get more involved in the largest consumer market, namely mortgages. A corporate credit union would, in effect, serve as a kind of credit unions' credit union. It would be a group of credit unions that would come together for what would become a vehicle, perhaps for mortgage lending. This is something they have long called for and it is an issue I raised regularly in the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach. I struggle to understand why we have waited for so long to do this. It is no secret that there is a lack of competition at the moment within the banking sector. Allowing credit unions to become more involved in mortgages would help to provide more competition.

I want to point out, however, one missed opportunity, which I have raised several times previously at the finance committee. I am referring to credit unions' capital requirements. Irish banks have some of the highest capital requirements in the EU due to the legacy of the banking crisis, but credit unions have even higher requirements, despite them not being the ones who caused the banking crisis. I believe we had an opportunity to restore the setting of these requirements to primary legislation as we had done before the 2012 Act. As I understand it, this is something the Government has decided to leave as a matter for the Central Bank. I believe the rationale for turning the matter over to the Central Bank is that it would be more responsive to changing market dynamics and that it could effect changes faster than amending the principal Act. I have seen only a kind of slow process progress in this regard and it seems that the Central Bank has been far more cautious. The credit union sector has long talked about this. Representatives feel the sector has been stymied over the past decade because of poorly targeted regulation. They want to see the setting of requirements restored to primary legislation. Does the Minister of State believe that this is a missed opportunity, and that it is something we can discuss at greater length at committee level?

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

I thank An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach, Deputy Ó Snodaigh, for the opportunity to speak on the Bill. Sinn Féin will support this Bill and we look forward to working with the credit union movement to make any amendments necessary to improve it further.

I am glad the legislation has been forthcoming as part of the programme for Government commitment to review the policy framework within which credit unions operate, and to enable and support the credit union movement to grow. It is important that the credit union movement can grow as a key provider of community banking in the State. It is, therefore, essential that we use this legislation to achieve this.

As the ILCU stated in its letter to public representatives regarding this legislation:

Credit Unions are not simply an alternative to banks. They are a model of community banking that can deliver a much wider range of services and an alternative financial platform.

We can be rightly proud of the high levels of credit union membership. This is due, in no small part, to the great work done by those who work and volunteer in the credit union movement, but it is also a great credit to the mammies of Ireland. I imagine that many people opened their first credit union account like I did, which was on the advice, by which I mean on the instruction, of my mother. It gives kids a really good habit. Credit unions are local, they are right there in the heart of the community, you get brought down by your Mam the first time to do it, and then you are on your own and part of the credit union movement. This is a great testament. They are very welcoming and very open but it is the mammies of Ireland who deserve a bit of a pat on the back for this.

The sector is not looking only for improvement in how things are currently done; they are seeking transformative change to maximise the potential of their movement. Credit unions are cornerstones of our communities. Many of us drew down our first loan from the credit union to buy tools for an apprenticeship, books for college, our first car, to go on our first holiday or, as in my case, to buy the first stick of furniture for a first house. They are trusted, they are visible and they understand what makes and strengthens a community. For eight consecutive years, credit unions have maintained the top spot at the Customer Experience Insight Awards, CXi, for best customer experience. As was alluded to earlier, they are on the front line in dealing with issues of financial abuse and coercive control in the context of domestic abuse and of elder abuse. Given that credit unions are local and in our communities, they are aware of and keep an eye out for people, and they are not just doing the job. They are doing the job well. They hold this position among Irish people because they treat their customers and members with respect and they respond to their needs and their individual circumstances.

With more than 300 credit unions across the island, one in every two people has a credit union account. There is a bit of work there for mammies to do still. It is a co-operative movement that places people above profits, benefits its members not shareholders and is embedded in our communities. Let us contrast the ethos of the credit union movement with that of commercial banks. Issues such as the tracker mortgage scandal or the attempt to close branches during the Covid crisis show how commercial banks often do not have the interests of their customers and communities at heart. The credit union movement stands in contrast to this. Credit unions are visible, they are responsible and they are accessible.

Credit unions provide people with affordable and ethical loans to meet the needs of their members yet, to date, the full power of the credit union movement has not been harnessed. It has been held back by a failure of Government to unleash its potential. It is long past time to unlock the potential of the credit union movement, not just for domestic customers but also for business customers. As a State, we need our credit unions to grow, expand and thrive. That is what this legislation should reflect. As it is currently constituted, it will need to be amended to ensure the credit union movement can realise its full potential. We support the Bill and its aims but we want it to go further. We will work with the credit union movement to ensure this legislation is as effective as possible. We all want the same thing in this. We want the credit union movement to thrive.

Deputy Ged Nash

Like Deputy O'Reilly, I probably have my Mam to thank for introducing me to the credit union. In some ways, I have never looked back. I have maintained my old account there, as I am sure many have. At around the same time, I opened an Ulster Bank account and got my Henri Hippo savings device, if I can call it such. I may not have my Mam to thank for that, it may have been the powers of TV marketing.

I wonder where we should hand those back to when Ulster Bank retreats from the market in the coming weeks. In any case, I am pleased to contribute to the debate and to provide the full backing of the Labour Party for this significant legislation. First, I will declare an interest. Like Deputies Farrell and O'Reilly, I am a member of a credit union. That is not unusual and I join with probably more than half the population of the island who are credit union members. I have no doubt the majority of Members of these Houses are members of credit unions.

The credit union movement is very much part of Ireland's story. It is part of our history. For people of my class, credit unions are the financial institution of first, and often only, choice. We should never underestimate the importance and value of the opportunity credit unions provided to buy a first car, assist people like me to go to university and enable people to develop a modest home extension. All these small contributions have had transformational impacts on people's lives individually, and collectively on communities throughout the country. I heard it said many years ago, including by my parents, that the banks - the pillar banks, as we know them now - only welcomed the business class and professionals. That was true to a large extent. Credit unions, however, were and are for us all.

My political hero, John Hume, who founded the Social Democratic and Labour Party, was president of the ILCU at the age of 27. As a democratic socialist, he knew the importance of access to credit at affordable rates from a member-based body based in the community and in which all members had an equal share, regardless of who they were, how much they earned or the amount they had on deposit. The movement is informed by the best principles of the co-operative movement. The Bill strives to ensure that those principles that have served the movement well are very much at the centre of the legislation and will continue to inform the development of the credit union sector. It now has more than 3.6 million members and €20 billion in assets. The demands placed on credit unions have become increasingly diverse. Members want more widely available services and their credit unions to be more responsive to the complex needs of the membership base in what is a much more sophisticated and complex economy than when the credit union movement first emerged. The Bill should and can achieve that. It has the balance right.

The Minister of State will not mind me saying that great credit is owed to her predecessor, Deputy Fleming, for marshalling the Bill to this point and for the extensive engagement he undertook, along with departmental officials, with credit union representative bodies in the past two to three years. I acknowledge the briefing on the details of the legislation provided earlier by the Minister of State, Deputy Carroll MacNeill, for Opposition Members.

The Bill provides a legislative foundation for the long-awaited establishment of corporate credit unions, the enhancement of member services by allowing credit unions to refer members to other credit unions and participate in loans of other credit unions, for example, and an increase in the maximum monthly interest rate on credit union loans, from 1% to 2%. It also aims to support enhanced governance through a range of amendments. One of the important aspects of the amendments relating to governance is the opportunity to appoint chief executives or managers of individual credit unions and branches to the board without the requirement to have an election. That makes sense from governance and day-to-day management points of view. Some of the other aspects relating to corporate governance will allow managers to manage, as I stated at the meeting earlier. There are some very experienced managers in the credit union sector now. They are well qualified and subject to rigorous and robust regulation. It is positive that they be enabled to become members of boards.

The Labour Party supports the Bill in a spirit of co-operation. As has been referred to, all Deputies received a letter yesterday indicating that the ILCU backs the legislation but would be interested in working with us all, including the Minister of State and those of us in opposition, on appropriate amendments on Committee Stage to ensure the Bill meets all its objectives. One of the main aims of the Bill is to allow for the movement to ensure credit unions fulfil their potential as bigger and more substantial actors in the community banking space and in retail banking more generally. We all want that to be made a reality because competition in the Irish retail banking market is beyond dire. With the withdrawal of Ulster Bank and Permanent TSB not yet of the scale to challenge, although it is seeking to build all the time, we are left with AIB and Bank of Ireland. This, combined with the frankly baleful absence of a commitment to look seriously at the Sparkasse model of regional community banking has resulted in what is, in effect, a duopoly in the Irish retail banking landscape. That has been an unfortunate feature of the sector for some time and the situation is only gong to get more critical with the exit of Ulster Bank in the coming weeks. The banking review I had been seeking for a long time made it clear that the credit union system has a major function in having more market share and allowing greater competition. There is no doubt there is a greater appetite for risk now among credit unions, especially the larger ones. That is indicated in all the research.

We do have the bizarre situation that some credit unions can offer mortgages as a product while others cannot. There is €20 billion in assets in credit unions at present and the loan ratio is 28%. That is abnormally low for any financial institution and I understand it is historically low in the context of credit unions and, therefore, there is significant potential, even in the space of mortgages, for more lending if credit unions are enabled to collaborate and co-operate to do so. The provisions of the Bill relating to the establishment of corporate credit unions and the changes to the area of the common bond seek to address those kinds of practical issues for credit union members and the movement. Changes in this area will allow credit unions to share risk and continue to be prudent and responsible in their lending policies.

In some ways, credit unions have been preparing for this day for many years. It has been the direction of travel in amalgamations and greater collaboration where possible, albeit within a restrictive and restricted framework and regulatory structure. There is now approximately half the number of credit unions that there were pre crash but we should not read too much into that because the reality is that they have more assets now and, although there is a smaller number, there is less fragmentation and they are larger. Their membership is growing all the time, and that is a good thing.

In March 2018, changes were made to the ways in which credit unions could invest. Since then, they have had the ability to invest €900 million in total to approved housing bodies but it seems only a handful of such investments have taken place. More can be done in this regard. I hope the Bill, when passed, will give the credit union movement increased confidence to take on that kind of risk and invest in addressing Ireland's most fundamental social and, arguably, economic challenge. When credit unions are enabled to make these kinds of investments to develop public housing through approved housing bodies, they are investing in the future of their members. I encourage them to increase their activity in that regard. I hope the legislation gives credit unions increased confidence to do just that. They should invest in these kinds of approaches and interventions that, although expensive, give a long-term return and help to create a social and public good.

I turn to the issue of interest rates. There is currently a cap of 1% on the interest rate that can be charged. The legislation foresees the cap being raised to 2%. It seems from reading material provide by the Oireachtas Library and Research Service that there has been a lively debate within the credit union movement on the question of the interest rate cap. The interest rate that applies to credit unions in Britain, for example, is a maximum of 3%, while it is 1% in Northern Ireland.

I believe this issue relating to the interest rate and, indeed, the efficacy of the legislation more generally, should be kept under review. The Minister of State should consider undertaking a review of the operation of the Act, especially specific provisions such as the new interest rate cap of 2%, in perhaps three or five years. She will know that it is normal and regular for legislation to include a provision to undertake frequent reviews of its efficacy. I propose that such an amendment be introduced on Committee Stage. I am happy to work with her on developing that fairly straightforward amendment.

Earlier, I referred to changes to the operation of the board to allow, as I described it, managers to manage. That is a positive in a fast-changing environment. It is also positive that the issue relating to the frequency of meetings of boards has been addressed and that there will be a requirement to have six board meetings a year. That is not too onerous and does not place too large an obligation on voluntary credit union board members. We know that in voluntary organisations throughout the country, it is difficult now to get as many people as we would like involved because of the time obligations and the commitment involved. Onerous responsibilities are placed on directors of credit unions. We should allow highly-qualified and highly-regulated credit union managers to manage. That board should not necessarily be involved in the minutiae of the day-to-day management of credit unions, though they do have important fiduciary and corporate responsibilities. That remains, of course, but we need to get the balance right.

In conclusion, we support the legislation. We will work with the Minister of State on the necessary amendments to make it more robust and responsive. We would appreciate the opportunity to see her commitment to the undertaking of frequent reviews of the operation of the Act and certain provisions, especially the question of the loan cap. What we need to focus on all the time is the growth of the credit union movement, its efficacy and its utility for people across the country who may be in need of banking services. It all revolves around the idea of stakeholder banking, not shareholder banking. It is about ensuring that people have a stake in their credit union and a stake in society so that their financial institution of choice - in this case the credit union - is responsive to their needs and can develop and grow in what is a very complex economy at present. Fundamentally, this is important legislation. It is landmark legislation and we need to get it right. I look forward to working with the Minister of State on developing it further through Committee and Report Stages.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

I congratulate my constituency colleague on her elevation and welcome her to the House in this forum. I also welcome and support this Bill. Local credit unions are at the heart of our communities. They play a critical role in supporting the local economy and they are more important now than ever. The Minister of State will be aware that in our own area in the constituency of Dún Laoghaire, Core Credit Union, and its branches in Monkstown and Blackrock, do superb work. They are very much engaged with the local community.

I support Government policy to expand credit union services and products, and to provide greater accessibility. The legislation will enable greater collaboration through the ability to establish corporate credit unions. It will enable wider availability of products across the movement through changes to the common bond. It will give credit union boards a greater focus on strategic issues through practical governance changes. A strong, resilient and collaborative credit union movement can take advantage of the opportunity afforded by banks withdrawing from Ireland and from branch closures. This legislation will help the credit union movement to grow as a key provider of community banking in the country. As we all know, it is an issue that has been debated for many years in this House. My party, Fianna Fáil, has been campaigning for such changes over the past number of years. To help credit unions seize this opportunity, it must be a priority to have this Bill passed by the Houses of Oireachtas as soon as possible so that the changes can take effect.

The Bill, which was passed by the Seanad in December, represents the culmination of two years of work led by the previous Minister of State with responsibility for financial services, credit unions and insurance, Deputy Fleming. During his tenure, he held more than 50 stakeholder engagements and met with more than 60 credit unions either individually or in groups, and many more at events. In total, in excess of 100 proposals, including all proposals submitted by sector representatives, for legislative and regulatory change were carefully considered. During a consultative round table in March of last year, the provisions of the Bill were supported by representative bodies at the meeting. The Minister of State, Deputy Fleming, and his staff deserve great credit for their work on preparing the Bill and I am sure we all express our appreciation for their efforts.

One aspect of the Bill relates to improving member services. Currently, credit union services can be somewhat of a lottery. If a member’s local credit union does not provide a current account or mortgage lending, he or she cannot join a credit union that does, nor can the credit union introduce the member to another credit union, though it can introduce a member to a bank or non-bank. While the common bond may appear to protect a credit union from competition from other credit unions, it does nothing to prevent competition from banks or non-banks. The purpose of the amendments relating to this objective is to increase the flexibility of the common bond and allow for practical improvements to help credit unions increase competitiveness and deliver a greater range of services to more members. These amendments are seen as a step towards ensuring accessibility to services for all members regardless of their common bonds and they are welcome. They will help people access the day-to-day services they need. I also welcome the other provisions of this Bill and I look forward to the legislation being implemented as soon as possible.

Deputy Robert Troy

I welcome the opportunity to contribute on the Bill and I wish the Minister of State well in her new role. There are many positive aspects to the Bill but, as she said, I would like to see a vision for where we would like to see the credit union movement go for the next decade or so. Undoubtedly, credit unions are an integral part of every one of our communities. We all know the important role that they play in serving the community. My own credit union in Mullingar was the main sponsor for the Fleadh Cheoil last year. There was no monetary gain for the credit union but it saw the benefit of having the Fleadh Cheoil in Mullingar, it ponied up and was the main sponsor, when many of the main hospitality businesses did not provide the same level of funding when they were the ones that reaped the greatest reward.

I will focus on Mullingar Credit Union and its five sub-branches in Kinnegad, Rochfortbridge, Casltepollard, Longford and Lanesborough. Deputy Flaherty might focus more on that area. In that area to which I referred, the credit unions have 60,000 members. Of those, 35,000 or so are active members. It is fair to say that from a personal lending perspective, the credit unions probably have the market saturated. Some 40% of personal lending goes through the credit union. There is little capacity to increase on that. However, there is capacity to increase in the area of mortgage provision. Under the current regulations, the local credit unions can only provide, on average, 90 mortgages for a membership of 60,000 and an active membership of 35,000. That simply is not good enough. That is a failing. It is something that we should seek to increase because that is an area where credit unions could do more. Another area is business lending. With Ulster Bank pulling out of the market, credit unions can only offer an overdraft of €5,000 and they can only lend up to €25,000 without a five-year business plan. Plasterers, electricians or carpenters cannot borrow €25,000 to buy a van without providing a five-year business plan. That makes no sense in today's terms, because they can go down the road and get finance online. That is another area where there is capacity for the credit unions to do more.

Credit unions are totally out of sync with banks in respect of capital requirements There is a 10% capital requirement. Our local credit union invested €30 million with the Central Bank last year and it had to put €3 million aside because of that. One would imagine that the capital in the Central Bank is very secure and there would not be a need to put another €3 million aside.

It is in no way risk-weighted. The risk-weighted capital requirements were promised in 2012 by the Central Bank and have yet to be provided. That needs to happen fast.

Finally, the six credit unions to which I referred have €360 million invested. Of that €360 million, €350 million is invested offshore, or if not offshore in other jurisdictions. That does not make any sense at a time when the credit unions should be investing in the provision of social housing and the green transition. There is, however, not enough incentive to do that and we need to address that also.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

There will be a significant amount of agreement on the credit union movement, the absolutely necessary services it provides and the very significant link it is in the community infrastructure. Everything needs to be done to ensure its future growth. The programme for Government states that the Government will "Enable the Credit Union movement to grow as a key provider of community banking in the country". That is what we need to ensure. The Irish League of Credit Unions welcomes this legislation, but we have a body of work to do. I think there will be a need for the Minister of State and the Government to look at the proposals that will come on Committee Stage from stakeholders and the Opposition, from the point of view of ensuring we give the credit union movement the facility to offer these added services, whether mortgages or loans to businesses, and any other changes that are required.

We welcome the idea of the corporate credit union and the ability to operate together and to collaborate. To some degree I was worried when governance structures were changed, which in some cases meant we technically lost small, localised credit unions, whether rural credit unions or credit unions that were operating in estates, sometimes in estates where there was a great level of disadvantage and need. They were at times able to provide short-term funding to people who found themselves in terrible conditions or sets of circumstances. We all know where those circumstances can sometimes lead, for example, where they relate to moneylenders, people under severe pressure or a debt someone's kid or grandkid has run up. While I might not always welcome the repayment of those debts, the fact is that the credit union was always there when nobody else was there.

We are all aware of the very significant amount of finance dealt with by the credit union movement. I think of Connect Credit Union and Dundalk Credit Union. The latter has stepped up to the mark in respect of the St. Patrick's Day parade, which at one stage, before Louth County Council put money into it, looked like it might not necessarily have happened. As I said, however, the credit union, as normal, stepped up to the mark.

If Members are being absolutely clear in their declarations of involvement, I will say I am no longer a member of Connect Credit Union on the basis that it changed its governance situation and looked for ID and such and I may have failed to hand mine in on time. I say that just to ensure that everything is above board.

Deputy Joan Collins

I support the Bill, in line with the Irish League of Credit Unions, as an important first step to achieving a policy framework that allows the credit union movement to strengthen and to grow. I repeat its calls that the Bill needs substantive amendment on Committee Stage to realise the policy and core objectives intended. Credit unions have long been a vital part of people's lives in this country. They offer much-needed services to communities all over the country and have long been a central part of community, rural and regional development. Credit unions were set up by the community and for the community and I support any movement that gives ordinary people a real, material say over how their communities and areas develop and grow.

Credit unions fulfil another important function. They are an important alternative to the financial sector that caused the disaster of the crash in 2008. We saw the total failure on offer from the big private banks and their drives for maximum profit for their shareholders at the expense of everyone else. This country saw a decade of austerity because of the financial sector in this country and internationally. We saw our public services cut to ribbons because of it. There is a real need for a strong alternative to the greed and fraud uncovered by the 2008 crash and the tracker mortgage scandal and everything that came with it. I believe that credit unions offer that. They offer a place where people can know that their money is safe and a place that will not bring the country down around their heads like the profit-at-all-costs banks did. Credit unions offer real services run in a reliable and people-focused way.

I support any measure that strengthens and grows the community-run, not-for-profit sector of our banking system. The problem is that the policy and regulatory system in which credit unions exist was never set up to support them. We have seen a very significant reduction in the number of credit unions, from 415 in 2010 to 210 in 2022. The majority of that decrease is due to the amalgamation of different branches, but when put in the context of hundreds of bank closures and hundreds of post office closures, it just adds to the very significant reduction in services across the country. With banks removing face-to-face services from communities all over the country, credit unions and post offices have never been more important. I have no problem with growing and strengthening credit unions, but smaller branches are an important part of life for thousands of people across the country. Far more needs to be done to ensure that smaller credit unions have the supports to survive and to continue to provide those vital services for their communities. People need those smaller branches and services. "Bigger is better" is not always right, especially in banking. We saw that in 2008.

Recently, I was in touch with an executive of a local credit union in my constituency. He said one of the biggest problems they are having is that they are being totally snowed under by financial regulations coming through the Central Bank and the EU. The problem is not necessarily that those regulations themselves are restrictive; it is that it is extremely costly and time-consuming to work out which of the hundreds of laws and regulations apply to credit unions and which do not. That puts a large burden on the resources and services of credit unions. It also requires higher and higher paid roles, requiring more and more expertise, which is quickly becoming prohibitive for smaller credit unions. How is a small local credit union in a rural area or an urban area supposed to find and afford somebody with expertise to shift through those hundreds and hundreds of regulations? One of the most simple but most effective reforms the Government could bring forward would be to instruct the Central Bank to use its significant resources to publish a list of laws and regulations that apply to the different functions of credit unions. That would take the burden off the small local credit unions which provide essential and vital services to communities in Ireland. I intend to make an amendment on Committee Stage in that regard.

I support credit unions. I should declare as well that I am a member of a credit union that is amalgamating with another public sector credit union, possibly in the near future. I support this Bill as a first step to the reform the credit unions need and should get. The strength of credit unions in Ireland is a great opportunity to develop a strong not-for-profit banking sector and to get away from the greed and the drive for profit at all costs in the rest of our banking sector.

I will end by stating that I have for a long time supported a public banking system with post offices and credit unions called for by the public banking forum as an alternative to commercial banking.

Deputy Thomas Pringle

I have been highlighting the importance of community banking for some time and have called on the Government to expand the remit and authority of our credit unions to provide community banks. Credit unions are an important part of Irish society and many families rely on them to provide loans for family essentials such as cars, education and house repairs. There is a trust between families and credit unions, a trust that has been lacking with banks for a long time. At this point, banks are too far removed from local communities and communities' wants and needs.

I welcome the Bill’s intention to expand the services of credit unions and encourage further community development. The community aspect is what makes credit unions unique and successful and we should ensure we protect this community focus going forward. It is for this reason that I cautiously welcome the Credit Union (Amendment) Bill. There are many positive aspects to the Bill and I recognise the extensive consultation process that took place during its drafting. As was noted by the Irish League of Credit Unions, however, there are aspects of the legislation that require amending.

I fear for the future of credit unions and I fear the vision the Government has for community banking. The key proposals in this Bill include providing for the establishment of corporate credit unions, enabling credit unions to share resources and opportunities, and allowing credit unions to refer lending business to each other and participate in loans to other credit unions. I understand that there are definite advantages to this but I fear that an amalgamation of multiple credit unions may take away from the community aspect of local people working in the local credit union and giving loans and advice to other locals and businesses. There is an importance to this, not just for local jobs but also for ensuring appropriate funding. The point of a credit union is that it is supposed to be specific and distinctive to the community it serves. A community’s needs are unique and constantly changing and the amalgamation of credit unions would shift focus from specific community needs. Credit unions are co-operative, not-for-profit organisations whose objective is to pursue the economic and social goals of members and local communities and it should stay that way. We should facilitate credit unions in maintaining their business model. We should not force them to amalgamate and join together. I am a member of Killybegs Credit Union. A county-wide credit union would not have the same effect or benefit. We may as well join a bank as join a county-wide credit union.

To give an example, when I approached a bank in Killybegs recently seeking a loan I was told I could not apply for a loan in the branch but had to ring Dublin to apply. Is that the way we want to go with the credit unions as well? When I rang the bank in Dublin and asked for a loan I was told the bank would ring me back. That was five months ago and I am still waiting for a call back. That is the kind of banking service we have now and it is wrong. If I want a loan, I can walk into the credit union, talk to a neighbour and tell that person what I need the loan for. They will discuss it with me and tell me what the repayments are. A couple of days later, I will have the loan. The credit union meets and decides if someone will get a loan. We will lose that from all of our credit unions, which is wrong.

I agree that it should not be the case that credit unions are only lending €5.5 billion of their €20 billion in assets. For this reason, I welcome the intention in the legislation that credit unions develop plans for lending in the community, for example, by providing small business and retrofit loans and engaging in agri lending. However, this does not have to be done through collaboration. Individual credit unions, when given the necessary support, are well equipped to handle this development. Each credit union should be given equal power in handling its lending in a community.

It also seems that the intention of the Bill is for credit union managers to have more power and their boards to have less. The legislation provides for the option of making the manager a member of the board, reducing the minimum number of board meetings to six per year and reducing the number of administrative issues to be mandatorily approved by the board. I would like to know what the reasoning is behind this move as it will be detrimental. I would also like to know what the ultimate aim is regarding credit unions. Is it the intention to make them into a type of bank? We should avoid this scenario at all costs. Perhaps the Minister of State will explain what the thinking and rationale are behind this and why we are pushing the credit unions to amalgamate and join together across the country.

I understand that with the closure of KBC Bank and Ulster Bank, and the closure of many bank branches throughout the country, particularly in rural areas, there is space for more banks. However, this should not be used to turn credit unions, or An Post for that matter, into banks. An Post and credit unions provide a personal and customer-specific service. Banking on the other hand has almost completely turned into an online service in which a computer determines the customer's banking abilities. We need to discourage this type of impersonal banking and protect what few personal services we have left these days.

Last year, the previous Minister of State, Deputy Fleming, while speaking to this legislation, stated: "While the common bond may appear to protect a credit union from competition from other credit unions, it does nothing to prevent competition from banks or non-banks". Competing with banks should not be the intention of the credit unions, however, and I would question this thinking. The intention of credit unions should be to serve the people, not the markets. The banks clearly only service the markets and they do not care about customers. To give an example, I am still waiting for a call back about my loan and I am sure there are thousands of others in the same position.

Credit unions in my constituency of Donegal are invaluable. My constituents rely on community banking to access loans that mainstream banks would not even dream of considering them for. There is no doubt that they are invaluable institutions. There is room for them to evolve, however, and this Bill is a significant step in doing that. I support those aspects of the Bill, but again I stress my concern about the future of credit unions and what the Government envisions for them. I hope they are valued for what they are and the services they provide to our communities, particularly those in rural Ireland.

Deputy Joe Flaherty

As this is my first time speaking to the Minister of State in her new role, I congratulate her and wish her the best of luck. I welcome this Bill, which is the first significant legislation for the credit union sector in 12 years. It follows through on a commitment in the programme for Government to prioritise credit unions. I am reasonably happy that the Bill, in its current format, reflects much of the significant dialogue that is taking place between the credit union movement, the Minister of State, her predecessor, Deputy Fleming, and Department officials. There is much to be pleased with in the Bill, which is an important first step for the credit union movement. I and, no doubt, many other Government Deputies will remind the Minister of State this week that there is still some work to be done on it. I am satisfied that we can deliver these necessary improvements and modifications on Committee Stage. I welcome that the Minister of State indicated she would be taking some amendments on Committee Stage. That would be greeted with universal agreement by anybody listening in on this debate.

Like all other speakers, I am deeply aware of and in tune with what the credit union represents throughout the community. We have a vibrant and strong credit union movement in County Longford and it is at the forefront of its local community. We are passionately proud of it and determined to ensure it has a lasting place in the hearts of our community. I know the Irish League of Credit Unions is engaging extensively with the Minister of State's office and officials with a view to delivering possible amendments on Committee Stage. These proposals are in line with the positive support for this sector that was set out in the retail banking review. I know this is one of the first Bills the Minister of State has dealt with. She will be most determined, as all of us will be, to ensure we get it right. We will also seek to ensure we place the credit union movement on the correct footing to be an overwhelming force for good and an all-empowering force for growth and opportunity in all our communities.

From the earliest days of this Government, we have made strong commitments to the credit union movement. The programme for Government delivered for the first time a dedicated Minister of State with responsibility for credit unions, an office the Minister of State before us proudly holds. I know she will do that with distinction, while hopefully delivering for the credit unions in this Bill. I do not want to over-emphasise the outstanding asks from the credit union movement as I am aware that its members believe credit unions are getting a fair and balanced hearing in the discussions with the Department. I stress, however, that any proposals will only improve the proposed legislation and allow the credit unions to deliver on all of their objectives for the betterment of our communities. Everybody in this House, regardless of politics, is agreed that we want to see the credit unions grow as providers of community banking in this country. That is clearly set out in the programme for Government.

We need to move on from the notion that our credit unions are merely an alternative to banks because they are not. Rather, they are a network of credit unions representing a proven model for the delivery of community banking that can, and undoubtedly will, deliver a wide range of services and a truly alternative financial platform. Improving the status quo is simply not good enough. This legislation needs to be tweaked to allow the delivery of a transformative change that will allow credit unions to follow through on the commitments they have made and which they know can deliver a better and more sustainable business model for them in all our communities. It is my earnest hope that their voice will be heard and the legislation amended accordingly.

As I said, I welcome the Minister of State's gambit in her opening statement that she is willing to take amendments on Committee Stage. I am sure that will be widely applauded by the many credit unions that are doubtlessly following this debate.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

This Bill is the first substantive credit union legislation since 2011 and a first step in delivering the commitments in the programme for Government for credit unions. They have been waiting for that for a long time. That said, the Bill will require substantial amendments if we are to get this legislation for this vitally important sector and make the most of the wonderful national and community asset that our network of credit unions presents us with. The credit union has been held back for over a decade by policies that have regulated the sector. The policies were designed for large banks in the wake of the financial crash and the bankruptcy of the country.

Credit unions have been crying out for reform to allow them to extend the loans, particularly for mortgages, businesses and agri-businesses. That is particularly important in rural areas in Mayo. We badly need competition in these areas. The credit unions can perform that role. I would also say that we need a different approach in these areas. Credit unions have the potential to be a genuine community banking system. They have 3.5 million members across the State and there is real potential in that the credit unions hold over €16 billion in savings and only hold over €5 billion in loans. Unlocking the credit union potential to issue loans and using their community relationships could address the issue with traditional pillar banks and adequately finance small businesses. That local knowledge is invaluable.

While I am here, I commend all of the volunteers in the credit unions that I know across Mayo, with the nearest one to me being Belmullet. Castlebar, Westport, Ballyhaunis, Achill and all of the other credit unions are embedded in the communities. They offer a wonderful service. In many cases, people would not have a car or very basic things that they need if not for the credit unions. It is time to set them free from the stranglehold of regulation that they have had to put up with over the years. They are probably one of the sectors which has been the most prevented from fulfilling its potential. I look forward to the credit unions fulfilling that potential and performing the role that I know they can perform in all these communities. We have to remember the volunteers' time and hours across the country. I acknowledge it and thank them all for the work they have done over the decades for credit unions and members in the community. When the doors were shut on many people across this State, the credit unions had their doors open. What they can do in future is even better than they have done in the past.

Debate adjourned.