Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 24 May 2023

Vol. 1039 No. 1

Ceisteanna ó Cheannairí - Leaders' Questions

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

I would like to tell the Taoiseach about a little boy who lives here in Dublin. He will have his fourth birthday in a few weeks from now. His mother wants what any other parent would want for her child, namely, for him to be happy and to have all of the opportunities that life brings. However, this little boy has complex needs. He had a preliminary team assessment for disability services nearly two years ago. He received no follow-up therapies and his family have not been contacted by the HSE to receive a full and proper assessment of need. As this little boy approaches his fourth birthday, he has spent half of his life waiting for this assessment. He is non-verbal, he finds it difficult to sleep at night and his mam is worried sick that without this assessment he will miss milestones and will not be supported to live his best life. She is worried when watching her son, who she loves so fiercely, slip through the cracks of a system that does not seem capable of meeting his needs. This little boy is not unique in the appalling way he has been treated. More than 10,000 children are waiting over a year for initial contact with their specialist children's disability network teams, CDNTs. The fact of that is a disgrace.

In March of last year, the High Court ruled that the HSE was breaking the law in its provision of children's disability services. Under the Disability Act 2005, every child with a disability is entitled to an assessment of need. This is meant to be provided to them within three months of seeking it. For thousands of children, however, that is not the case. Tá an Stát seo ag teip ar pháistí faoi mhíchumas go dona. In ionad measúnaithe a fháil ar sheirbhísí atá tuillte acu, mothaíonn siad go bhfuil siad ar liostaí feithimh gan deireadh ar bith agus tá lagmhisneach tagtha orthu. Tá a dtuismitheoirí ag deireadh na feide agus mothaíonn siad go bhfuil an Rialtas ag tabhairt neamhairde orthu.

These children deserve access to therapies to develop their speech, learn important skills and access the education they are entitled to. Early intervention is essential to help them reach their potential but sadly, that crucial period is passing so many of them by. This, in turn, places an overwhelming burden on families who feel forced to pay privately for assessments of need and for other therapies and services they simply cannot afford. They have no recourse for reimbursement from the State, despite the fact that it is the Minister for Health’s responsibility to ensure that children have these assessments and have access to services. These families and children deserve better, and well the Taoiseach knows it.

Families and children need a Government that will get to grips with this matter. They do not need vague promises that do not materialise, ad hoc statements, piecemeal approaches or platitudes, but a genuine change in children’s lives. When will the State honour its legal obligation to provide these services to children with disabilities, particularly timely assessments of need? When will families forced to go privately for assessments of need be reimbursed? When will financial supports be provided for families forced to access services privately?

The Taoiseach

I thank the Deputy for raising this important issue. All of us will know from our experience in our constituencies or from talking to parents while out and about around the country that many children are not getting the assessments they need in due time and that others are waiting far too long for the therapies they required. Having said that, this is an area in respect of which the Government has shown huge commitment and in which it has invested considerable resources in recent years. The Deputy will know that we have a dedicated Minister of State with responsibility for special education in Deputy Madigan and a budget of almost €2 billion. We have never had so many special needs assistants, SNAs, or so many special classes in our schools. We are also setting up new special schools where necessary. In the past ten years, we have seen an enormous transformation in the level of children who are able to access special education and we see the results of that with children doing much better than they would have if they were born ten, 20 or 30 years ago because of the enormous investment that has been made.

I know what is being done falls short in lots of different areas. That is particularly the case when it comes to providing speech and language therapy, occupational therapy and the services that children need. The sooner we get them, the better the outcomes will be. We acknowledge that. A huge amount of it is down to a shortage of staff and being able to find staff. This problem is not unique to Ireland; it exists across the world, particularly in view of the shortage of qualified therapists.

We are not sitting on our hands; we are acting. The HSE is progressing several initiatives to improve the supply of therapists into disability services and the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, and the Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, are deeply engaged in this work and will meet the HSE board in the coming weeks to discuss this matter and other matters. The measures that will be taken include: a confined competition to fill vacant senior posts across all disciplines on CDNTs; targeted recruitment for CDNTs; targeted international recruitment for CDNTs, with an agreed relocation allowance for people who are willing to come in from abroad; and a sponsorship programme for therapy grades. In addition, the HSE is looking at other options, including bringing in an apprentice programme for therapy grades.

We have done that in other areas, saying that there should be more ways to enter the profession. It does not have to be through the degree system or the universities and perhaps we can have an apprenticeship in this area. We have introduced the employment of graduates as graduate therapists while they are awaiting registration, so we do not have people awaiting registration who could work in the system but are told they cannot. There has been an expansion of therapy assistants in the system, with the HSE supporting individuals to return to education to qualify as therapists, and also an increase in the number of clinical placements on the CDNTs.

Despite the recruitment challenges, the HSE and the Department remain committed to progressing these efforts to increase the workforce and to improve services to children and families. I know that listing recruitment initiatives can seem somewhat removed from the very real pressures that parents, and ultimately their children, are facing, but I really cannot emphasise enough how the challenges in our CDNTs are primarily driven by shortage of staff, and how we are doing all that we can to increase the number of staff, to bring staff from abroad and to increase the number of people who are trained here.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

The Taoiseach has been in government for 12 years. What he has read into the record of the Dáil just reflects a litany of failure and inefficiency, and a lack of priority given to this area and to these children. One of my colleagues, Deputy Browne, another Tipperary Deputy, heard today that a one-year-old child with autism from Tipperary got word from the HSE that the first services available to that child will be in 2028. There are other children waiting for services or assessments of need, who are being told that they will wait for that length of time. That is not acceptable. I have to say that for an individual who has been in government for 12 years to stand up and try to pretend it is all rosy and that there is not a fundamental issue here, in terms of political purpose and funding and support for the Minister of State responsible for this area, Deputy Rabbitte, is just not acceptable. We should not be standing up here citing cases of one-year-olds, two-year-olds and four-year-olds, who are left in this situation.

There are 17,000 children waiting for first contact with their specialist CDNT, and 10,000 of those children are waiting more than a year. Yet, the Taoiseach actually up and talked to me about SNAs, which is an important issue, but a separate issue. He should not try to dodge the issue. He said the Government is doing the devil and all to get more staff and therapists. The Government's countermotion stated that discussions are ongoing between the Department of Health and Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science. The Government is still at the point of discussing this. Is the Taoiseach serious? Will the State reimburse those who have to go privately for assessment of needs and for services and therapies? Will it open the purse strings and support those families?

The Taoiseach

I have been in government for 12 years, and in those 12 years this country has made enormous progress. Just look at the figures that came out this morning from the Central Statistics Office, CSO. There are 2.6 million people at work and unemployment has fallen to 4.1%. Compare that to where we were 12 years ago. The Deputy does not like to talk about this, but let us not forget that her party has been in government for most of the last 20 years North of the Border. I know she does not want to talk about it, but it is a fact. I will be happy, any time, to compare the record of my party in government here with hers North of the Border, but doing so is pointless, because it will not do anything-----

(Interruptions).

The Taoiseach

-----for parents who are concerned about their children not getting therapies. If the Deputy wants to bring up my record in government, she should not think it is any surprise that I should bring up hers. I am happy to compare it anytime, point for point.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

You are running down the clock.

The Taoiseach

If she brings it up again, I will bring it up again.

On the issue of assessments of need, we have a real challenge here. Assessments of need are a legal entitlement, but have become a barrier to children getting the therapies they need. We shortened the assessment of need. That helped for a period of time and reduced the waiting lists. A court decision meant that we had to reverse that-----

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Yes, to do it properly.

The Taoiseach

-----and now that has created a problem.

Deputy David Cullinane

A problem you created.

The Taoiseach

That is sometimes what happens when you put things in law with a good intention. It can backfire on you.

Deputy Martin Browne

What about reimbursement?

The Taoiseach

On the issue of reimbursement, that is something we are going to give consideration to. The Minister for Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth, Deputy O'Gorman, and the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, in response to Deputy Kelly, already indicated that. When you do those things, you have to do it right. It is not unusual for us to reimburse private practitioners.

An Ceann Comhairle

Thank you, Taoiseach. We are way over time.

The Taoiseach

We do it with respect to GPs, we do it in dentistry and we do it in pharmacy. Yes, we are open to considering that over the next couple of months when it comes to therapy, but we have to do it right because if we do it wrong it can backfire.

Deputy Ivana Bacik

I want to speak with the Taoiseach about provision for children. First, I welcome the intervention by the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, in response to our Labour Party motion on services for autistic children and children with disabilities. I commend the Minister of State on committing to bring our Labour Party proposal to Cabinet. If six regional testing teams are not functional by 1 August, she has committed the State to paying for assessments of need of children who are waiting more than three months. That was a really important, timely, unexpected, but very welcome intervention by the Minister of State, supported by the Minister for Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth, Deputy O'Gorman. I ask the Taoiseach if he can commit to that for the children and parents who were listening to the debate earlier and have heard what has been said. We acknowledge there is a recruitment crisis. We have acknowledged all of that. We have acknowledged the progress that has been made, but we need to see that sort of really effective commitment being made and being honoured by Government. We owe that to Cara and Mark Darmody, and to all of those who have been so active for so long, seeking adequate and effective interventions and services for their children.

I raise another issue relating to provision for children, namely, the Barnardo's report published today, which lays bare the real impact of the cost-of-living crisis for children in Ireland. It exposes the stark reality facing so many parents across the country who are making the unthinkable decision of not to bring a sick child to the doctor because they simply cannot afford it. One parent reported being afraid to do the washing because of ESB bills. This report has confirmed what we, in the Labour Party, have been warning about for some time, that the barrage of tokenistic and untargeted measures adopted by Government were simply not enough to keep the wolf from the door for far too many. They were simply not enough for children today asking their parents if they are poor.

The week in which we see the publication of this important Barnardo's report, and in which we hear from parents who are trying to get services for autistic children, also appears to mark the beginning of the budget kite-flying season. The Taoiseach has condemned the practice of the drip-feeding and kite-flying of proposals over the years, yet he and his party colleagues have been first out of the traps, calling for tax cuts in this budget and showing fundamental disrespect for their partners in government, some of whom have been very open about their critique of this. More importantly, it is disrespectful to the people in our communities across the country who are struggling to get services and to make ends meet, as Barnardo's has told us. It is disrespectful to them to see Fine Gael Ministers and Deputies testing the waters, attempting to consolidate popular support by playing politics, mooting ideas to resonate with the core vote, and insulting households trapped in poverty.

Does the Taoiseach agree that it is impossible to maintain a position favouring tax cuts while leaving behind so many families and children in poverty? Does he agree that at a minimum, any tax relief in this budget must be accompanied by a meaningful increase in social welfare payments, a commitment to the living wage and, crucially, a commitment to invest budget surpluses in the provision of services for children with special needs and for children who are facing such an enormous shortfall in service provision for autism and disability services across the country at the moment?

The Taoiseach

The Deputy raised a lot of very important issues there. I am not sure if I can cover them all in my response given the time I have, but I will do my best. It is as simple as this: when you have an economy that is growing, when you have more people at work, when you have more people who are earning more, and when you have more businesses trading more and making more profits, there are more favourable choices that you can make. Look at the labour force survey that was published today. There are 2.6 million people at work, and 600,000 more at work today than when I first became a Government Minister. Incomes are at an all-time high and female participation in the workforce is at its highest ever level. When you are in that position, when you pursue the right economic policies, trade policies and foreign policy for a number of years, then you have choices. Yes, in that context, when you have a strong economy, it is possible to reduce taxes, to increase social welfare and pensions and to find more money to invest in public services and public infrastructure. Not only is it possible, but it is what we have done every year, probably for the past six or seven years. Perhaps that has not been noticed by the Deputy, but it is a fact. I invite the Deputy to fact-check that. For the last number of years, we have been able to reduce taxes on incomes, we have been able to increase pensions and social welfare, and we have been able to increase public spending both on services and on infrastructure. We will continue to do that as long as this Government remains in office.

The biggest risk to us doing that in the future is a fundamental change in economic policy and a fundamental change in foreign policy. If we move away from the centre of the European Union and vote down trade agreements, as some of the Opposition parties want to do, and change our fundamental pro-enterprise, low tax and economic policies-----

Deputy Sean Sherlock

Some of the Taoiseach's own colleagues want to do it as well.

The Taoiseach

-----well then things will change fundamentally. We will go into recession and then we will have to face austerity again. I hope that does not happen.

With regard to the issue the Deputy raised on parents accessing-----

Deputy Aodhán Ó Ríordáin

A child poverty guide.

The Taoiseach

I am sorry; I did not quite hear that.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputies, please.

The Taoiseach

I am trying to answer Deputy Bacik's question regarding the issue of reimbursement of assessments of needs. That is something we will examine. In fact, we have started examining it already as a possibility. I have no ideological objection whatsoever when it comes to paying private practitioners. We do it in general practice, pharmacy and dentistry. We do it for private hospitals through the National Treatment Purchase Fund, NTPF. I have never had any problem with that; others might or might have had in the past. I have never had a problem with using private practitioners to provide public services whatsoever. If we do, however, we need to get it right. We need to know how much capacity exists in the private sector. I am told it might not be that much, but we need to know. We also need to know what the legal basis for doing so would be. I know we cannot use the NTPF without a change to primary legislation, but changes to primary legislation are possible. We also need to consider unintended consequences. That is always a risk when we bring the private sector into providing a public service.

An Ceann Comhairle

I thank the Taoiseach.

The Taoiseach

We also need to work at the reimbursement model. Would it be a case of somebody just sending the bill to the Government? I do not think that would work. We would need some sort of prior approval system like we have for things like the cross-Border directive.

An Ceann Comhairle

Time is up.

The Taoiseach

We are looking at this already, by the way. I hope the Deputy can pick that up from my response. We will be able to make a decision on it within a few months.

An Ceann Comhairle

I thank the Taoiseach. I call Deputy Bacik.

Deputy Ivana Bacik

Certainly, I agree that budget surpluses do give choices but the kite flying by the Taoiseach's own party this week suggests that his choice is to insist on a Fine Gael ideological agenda of tax cutting at the expense of providing the necessary public investment to deliver services for people who are struggling to make ends meet. It is at the expense of investment in meaningful measures to tackle child poverty, which is a commitment the Taoiseach made, and yet we see more than 188,000 children living in poverty, such as those whose stories were told in the Barnardos report today. I appeal to the Taoiseach and Government to ensure the necessary investment is made.

I thank the Taoiseach for engaging with me on the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte's, commitment. I thank him for saying the work is under way on that. Of course, we want to see the six regional assessment teams in place. I ask him again to ensure the necessary public investment is in place so those assessment teams are in place in order that the backlog of assessments of needs can be met in that way, and that he will abide by that timeline of 1 August given by the Minister of State which the children and their parents so desperately need.

The Taoiseach

The Deputies assessment about choices and trade-offs is fundamentally wrong. If we pursue the right economic policies, the right policies on trade and the right foreign policies, we grow the cake and there can be more for everyone. If we pursue the wrong policies, then the cake shrinks and there is less for everyone. That is a different approach and different philosophy we have. However, the fact that we have done what we have done in the past five years, such as cutting income tax, increasing pensions, increasing welfare, increasing spending on public services and an increased investment infrastructure, shows that we are right, and the Deputy is wrong in terms of our understanding as to how the economy works.

Deputy Ivana Bacik

The figures show it.

The Taoiseach

With regard to the issue-----

Deputy Sean Sherlock

We have just been talking about services.

The Taoiseach

-----the Deputy raised on the cost-of-living crisis, of course, I acknowledge that many parents and families are struggling with the cost of living. We are acting on this, however. I will give the Deputy 12 ways in which we are acting in the 16 seconds that remain. We increased the national minimum wage and working family payment for low-income working families. We increased social welfare payments. The one-parent family payment is up by €12 per week, for example. Next month, every child will receive €100, including middle-income parents, because some of them are struggling too, and the back-to-school clothing and footwear allowance will be paid at the higher rate. We also reduced college fees, increased the Student Universal Support Ireland, SUSI, grant, reduced the cost of school transport, waived examination fees, introduced cheaper childcare and cheaper public transport, introduced free schoolbooks in all primary schools from September and the expansion of hot school meals. So long as this Government stays in office, we will do more again. The biggest risk is a fundamental change of economic or foreign policy. If we do that then we will go backwards.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

Under Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael and the Green Party, Ireland is becoming a more violent and dangerous place. The Government is soft on crime and soft on the causes of crime. The Taoiseach just needs to look at the facts in that regard.

Over the last number of years, the Government has hung the Garda out to dry in terms of underresourcing and understaffing. According to Eurostat figures in 2016, Ireland had the smallest per capita police force in the EU at 278 gardaí for every 100,000 people. That was 40 police officers less than the European average at the time. Figures I just received from the Department of Justice show that there are only 280 gardaí now for every 100,000 people. It has hardly moved in terms of per capita numbers since that austerity floor back in 2016. This obviously leaves gardaí extremely vulnerable.

In the response to that parliamentary question I received a number of weeks ago, we found out that 2,411 gardaí have been assaulted while on active duty in the last ten years. It is absolutely not acceptable that hundreds of gardaí are going about their normal business every year helping the community and they are being assaulted for it. It is terrifying figure for both the gardaí and for families. The Government must take steps to protect those gardaí.

Other information we received shows that only 116 gardaí were recruited to the service last year. That is an 80% collapse on the previous year, which is an incredible figure. We know that hundreds of gardaí are retiring each year and that last year, we had the highest number of resignations in the Garda force in the last five years. It is, therefore, very clear and very stark. The number of gardaí in the State per capita is going into reverse significantly and it is doing tremendous damage to morale in the force. It is doing tremendous damage to the force's ability to carry out its work in the community and it is leaving gardaí vulnerable as a result.

Now, we hear that gardaí are set to face prosecution after three people were tragically killed while being pursued down the wrong side of the motorway. These were criminals who had 200 previous convictions. As the Taoiseach can imagine, there is huge concern among gardaí at that particular threat of prosecution. There is huge concern about whether they will be able to do the work they are meant to do. We have to stand up for our gardaí. We in Aontú have created a Bill that will create a minimum custodial sentence for those who physically assault gardaí. We heard the Minister for Justice talk about a maximum custodial sentence and that is to be welcomed, but without a minimum custodial sentence, it is entirely possible that people can continue to assault gardaí in this State and never, ever see prison time for that. That is absolutely wrong given what has happened. All of this is leading to significant increases in crime and anti-social behaviour in the State. Will the Taoiseach support our call for a minimum custodial sentence to protect gardaí on duty?

The Taoiseach

I thank the Deputy for raising this important issue. Let me be very clear. I believe we need more gardaí and more Garda staff. I said so last week when I was asked about it and I stand over it. We need more gardaí and more Garda staff, and that is exactly what we are doing. We have authorised the recruitment of 1,000 new gardaí this year. Of course, there will be retirements and resignations, but that will see a net increase in the number of gardaí this year. I am confident that will be the case. We will do the same again next year. We have roughly 14,000 gardaí. It is up a bit on where it was a couple of years ago, but not enough. I want to get us to 15,000 gardaí employed by the State before this Government ends. That is the target and commitment I have given. We intend to do that. We are also hiring hundreds of additional Garda staff every year, which allows gardaí to do more front-line work. I had the opportunity last week to visit Clonmel Garda station and see exactly how that does work in freeing up gardaí to do Garda work by having Garda staff on the front desk. I am pleased that we are going ahead now with the new Garda stations in Clonmel and Macroom. I thank the Ministers, Deputies Harris, Donohoe and O'Donovan for making that possible.

All of us in Government take the issue of the safety of our gardaí very seriously. We support their work and we do not believe anyone should be assaulted in the course of his or her work. That applies to people in other professions as well. What are we doing about it? We are increasing the maximum sentence from seven years to 12 years. The Minister, Deputy Harris, received approval from Government for that only this week.

We are also bringing in body-worn cameras, which will also help to protect gardaí.

To frankly answer the Deputy's question about minimum sentences, I do not think generally that minimum sentences are a good idea. I know I am accused of all sorts of ideology and perhaps this is the liberal in me speaking. Minimum sentences tend to backfire. What happens when you have minimum sentences is that people are sometimes detained in prison when they probably should not be and a more appropriate approach might be a suspended sentence, probation or a juvenile liaison programme, for example. In some cases, people are acquitted when they should not be because the judge or the jury think the minimum sentence is too stiff in the circumstances. That is generally why I think minimum sentences can be a bad idea.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

Authorising is not recruiting. Last year, the Government authorised that recruitment of 1,000 gardaí and 116 were recruited. That is the difference between a press statement and the reality of the experience in society. The Government's policy is backfiring on people because crime and antisocial behaviour are going through the roof. Ireland has become a more violent place in recent years. Figures that we have obtained show that gardaí have seized 17,000 knives in the past year, an increase of 60% in a few short years. There was a jump in the number of unlawful killings in 2021 and 2022. Figures released to Aontú show there were 53,775 domestic violence calls in 2022. More than 1,000 people, mostly women, attended a sexual assault treatment unit last year. That was the first time that figure ever surpassed 1,000. In 2011, 1,958 sexual offences were recorded in the State. In 2021, that number had increased by 75% to 3,433. In 2011, 447 rapes were recorded in the State. In 2021, that figure had doubled to 983. Ireland is becoming more violent. It is happening because people can attack gardaí with impunity at the moment and the numbers of gardaí are falling. The Garda can no longer do its job to the full extent.

The Taoiseach

I thank the Deputy. He and I can quote statistics back and forth until the cows come home but if we look at the facts and compare Ireland with other European countries, other countries in the western or developed world, this is a pretty safe country. Just look at the murder rate per capita. It is one of the lowest in the western world. That is because of the hard work of our gardaí and the strong society we have built. Crime numbers go up and down but if we take a broad period of time and compare us with other countries, Ireland is pretty safe. We should not be scaring people into thinking otherwise.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

All those figures are correct. They have all gone up.

The Taoiseach

That is in no way to dismiss the reality of crime or the experience of victims.

In terms of recruitment, as I mentioned, funding has been provided to recruit 1,000 new gardaí this year. More than 90 entered Templemore in November. More than 130 entered in the following intake. Another 154 will be in the next intake. We are confident that even when taking account of the challenges in recruitment due to retirements and resignations, we will see a meaningful net increase in the number of gardaí this year.

Deputy Michael McNamara

I raise the issue of our wastewater infrastructure, or rather the lack thereof. I agree with the mantra the Government repeats that we cannot use this surplus to invest in current expenditure because we cannot rely on that money, it might run out, and we will then require cutbacks. However, what we can do is to invest that money in necessary infrastructure.

I want to focus on County Clare, in particular, because that is the county I know best, but it is the same as every other county in the country. It is, in particular, the same as every other coastal county in the country. This year, there is a new scheme, which I welcome. It is going to cost €6 million to put in sewerage infrastructure for the first time in settlements without sewers. Irish Water states that if there is no sewer in an area, no matter how bad the situation is, it is not its problem. The county councils states that they no longer have a water infrastructure remit so it not their problem. It is nobody's problem, but it is a problem for all of us if we are pumping raw sewage into our rivers and streams, and into the sea. That is what we are doing all over this State at the moment, as we run a surplus and do nothing with it.

I recently asked a couple of questions that were ruled out of order because the Minister has no responsibility to answer questions in the Dáil about Irish Water. I ask for the Government's co-operation to fix that. It is a matter of concern for us all because we are paying for Irish Water. The Exchequer pays for Irish Water and the Dáil is supposed to supervise it. More fundamentally, I ask the Government to properly address this lack of infrastructure.

Irish Water pleaded guilty to five of 13 charges with regard to the Miltown Malbay plant in November 2022. I asked what the plant was doing about it. It is going to carry out an assessment. Spanish Point is nearby. It is an important settlement with no wastewater infrastructure whatsoever. A third settlement at Seafield, Quilty is beside Spanish Point. The wastewater treatment plant there is operating at only 51% capacity. I asked if an assessment had been carried out as to whether sewage could be brought from Spanish Point, which is an important settlement. The Taoiseach may even have visited it; lots of people have. It is a lovely place to visit, except for the fact the sewage is probably flowing untreated into the sea.

The same is true of Carrigaholt, which is beside a special area of conservation, SAC, as is Spanish Point. Doolin is another beautiful settlement with the same problem. If we are not going to solve that problem now when we have an enormous surplus, when are we going to do so? Are we saying this is optional expenditure and we will wait until we have spent a couple of million euro in the European Court of Justice and be forced to do it? Are we actually going to stop shitting in our rivers in this State in 2023?

The Taoiseach

I am delighted to have the chance, once again, to clarify things or to repeat what I have said before. I have never said we cannot use some of the surplus to increase spending on infrastructure. In fact, I have said the opposite. We can use some of the surplus to increase spending on public infrastructure and that is exactly what we intend to do. I did not catch the interview but I think the Minister for Finance, Deputy Michael McGrath, said much the same thing on "Prime Time" the other night. The Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform, Deputy Donohoe, has also said so. We are examining the national development plan, NDP, ceilings and will use some of the surplus to increase spending on infrastructure.

I need to be frank with the Deputy when I say it is not as simple as increasing the budget for a Government agency or semi-State body. There are also other constraints. Many public bodies are unable to spend the capital budgets we assign to them, not because they do not care, are not working hard or are somehow not competent, but because there are other constraints. Sometimes the constraint is finding skilled staff. Sometimes there are issues around materials, such as the availability of steel, concrete or timber. Sometimes there are planning issues and sometimes there are legal challenges. We are in a very different position than we were when I was first appointed to Government 12 years ago. We are often unable to spend the capital budgets that are assigned to Government Departments and agencies because of constraints that are nothing to do with finance or the competency of the people involved. It is the result of the other factors I have mentioned.

On the particular matter raised by the Deputy in respect of Miltown Malbay, Spanish Point and Seafield, I am told that Uisce Éireann is working on the issues raised in the prosecution and is currently carrying out a strategic assessment of the site, to include all of the feasible options to resolve the wastewater needs of the area. A project to upgrade the plant will be progressed once this has been completed and the Government is providing Uisce Éireann with sustained investment. Uisce Éireann is using this investment to improve services and remedy the fragility that is apparent in some parts of our wastewater services network. Uisce Éireann manages all aspects of the water and wastewater services planning and is responsible for the planning, delivery and operation of all public treatment plants. The Government is eager to see faster progress on these projects wherever possible and the budget provided to Uisce Éireann this year is €1.56 billion, which is not a small amount of money. That amount will be higher again next year.

Deputy Michael McNamara

I welcome what the Taoiseach has been told. However, Clare County Council has been told something entirely different. It has been told that Uisce Éireann is not looking at Spanish Point at all. It is not interested in including Spanish Point in an upgrade, nor is it interested in seeing whether Spanish Point could be catered for at Seafield or if all three of those areas, including Miltown Malbay, could be catered for at Seafield. Uisce Éireann is not interested in Spanish Point because it is not sewered. As it is not sewered, Uisce Éireann has stated it is not its problem. Clare County Council has stated it is not its problem either. The same is true of Carrigaholt.

It was a wonderful little town. I suppose it is now a village. There is huge scope for sustainable development but it cannot develop without a sewer. Spanish Point has developed but it is at its limits now because there is no sewer. Doolin is the same story - no sewer.

I do not know what Irish Water is saying to the Taoiseach but, to me and to everybody else, it is saying that it is not its problem. Clare County Council is saying that it is not its problem. We have a bureaucratic issue. On top of the problems that the Taoiseach has outlined, we have created this scenario where it is nobody's problem but yet it is the State's problem. The State can and, I say, will be held accountable in international courts, and we will waste a lot of money defending actions instead of solving the problem.

The Taoiseach

It is the State's problem and the State has a role to play in resolving it. I agree with the Deputy on that.

I am advised that Spanish Point is regarded as unsewered and relies on private individual systems, such as septic tanks, as there is no public wastewater treatment plant or public sewerage present.

Last year, the Minister, Deputy O'Brien, announced the commencement of a new funding scheme targeting the wastewater collection and treatment needs of villages and settlements without public wastewater access, such as Spanish Point. That is something that I strongly support because any settlement should have decent wastewater facilities and should be able to have some level of natural expansion in terms of new housing and population, even if it is very small. I am told it is open to these areas to bid to be included in this programme or otherwise to receive funding for the provision of wastewater infrastructure, and Uisce Éireann will work with the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage and local authorities to support the development and implementation of an appropriate solution.