Retained Fire Services: Motion (Resumed) [Private Members]
The following motion was moved by Deputy Eoin Ó Broin on Tuesday, 13 June 2023:
That Dáil Éireann:
expresses its admiration and appreciation to the Retained Firefighters who keep our communities safe across the country at huge personal sacrifice to themselves;
recognises:
— that Retained Firefighters are restricted from travelling outside a radius of as low as 2.5 kilometres of their station without first obtaining permission, which has a huge negative impact on their own and their families' lives;
— the very great commitment they make to be local and available, to train approximately 100 hours per annum alongside additional training requirements, and ultimately to run into a burning building and save lives; and
— that they provide this invaluable service and make these commitments in exchange for a guaranteed income of as little as €8,696 per annum;
notes with concern that:
— recruitment and retention levels in the retained fire services are beyond crisis point, as confirmed in the Government's most recent review which stated that 58 per cent of current Retained Firefighters said they were likely to leave the service within the next three years;
— due to current staffing shortages, the demands being placed upon current members of the Retained Firefighters and their families are unsustainable; and
— the ongoing failure to address the problems of the retained fire service is placing the health and safety of its members, and the public in danger;
condemns:
— the lack of action and political leadership from Minister Darragh O'Brien TD to resolve these issues, which have led to the retention and recruitment crisis in the retained fire services;
— the failure of the Government to meaningfully engage with representative bodies acting on behalf of the Retained Firefighters, which has forced the National Retained Firefighters Association to engage in industrial action; and
— the approach of the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage, Darragh O'Brien TD, and the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform, Paschal Donohoe TD, which demonstrates zero appreciation of the huge dedication and sacrifice of our Retained Firefighters; and
calls on the Government to:
— urgently engage with representative bodies acting on behalf of the Retained Firefighters to avert an escalation of industrial action;
— bring forward a financial investment package which allows for the creation of a new framework for service delivery for retained fire services, and provides for increased remuneration and better conditions for current and future members; and
— immediately issue guidance to all fire authorities in respect of operational resources, including minimum staffing levels relative to the risk, various types of employee leave and standardised recruitment processes.
Debate resumed on Amendment No. 1:
To delete all words after "Dáil Éireann" and substitute the following:
"recognises that:
— Retained Firefighters are highly committed frontline responders providing an exceptional service within their communities;
— Retained Firefighters live and work within close proximity of their fire station, which provides operational cover and availability of fire appliances, and this model requires a firefighter to have a high level of availability to attend emergencies and can impact on work/life balance;
— Retained Firefighters are trained to the same level as full-time firefighters and deal with the same range of emergency scenarios, and for the purposes of both health and safety and to ensure training is kept up to date, Retained Firefighters train on a regular basis throughout the year and are paid accordingly for attending all training;
— the role of a Retained Firefighter is part-time, and was never intended to provide a full-time income; and
— significant progress has been made to date and a very strong proposal was made to the Services, Industrial, Professional and Technical Union (SIPTU), which included a 20 per cent increase in staffing, an element of rebalancing pay with a structured time off and flexible working arrangements, within the scope of the Building Momentum – Public Service Agreement 2021-2023;
notes that:
— the Fire Service Policy in Ireland is based on the Keeping Communities Safe framework that sets out a risk management approach to service provision, defining fire service roles, response standards and service delivery structures;
— retained fire services operate an Incident Command System supported by standard operating guidelines, with appropriate risk control measures, which underpin the highest levels of operational safety to protect fire crews responding into hazardous situations;
— it is clear from the preliminary findings of the report entitled 'Retained Fire Services in Ireland - A Review of Recruitment and Retention and the Future Sustainability of Service Delivery', that the work-life balance for Retained Firefighters needs to be addressed to make the retained fire service an attractive employment option, and this will require significant redesign of the current rostering model; and
— the current dispute has created a high-risk environment for firefighters and the public which is deeply undesirable, and that all stakeholders would benefit from utilising the agreed mechanism for dispute resolution, the Workplace Relations Commission;
acknowledges:
— that in recognition of issues experienced by retained fire services in recruitment and retention of staff, the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage, Darragh O'Brien TD, directed the Management Board of the National Directorate for Fire and Emergency Management to review the delivery and sustainability of the local authority 'retained' fire services, with particular emphasis on the recruitment and retention of staff;
— that the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage published the report entitled 'Retained Fire Services in Ireland – A Review of Recruitment and Retention and the Future Sustainability of Service Delivery' in December 2022;
— that contained within the report were 13 recommendations aimed at improving the retained fire service delivery model to address the issues around retention and recruitment;
— that discussions on the implementation of these recommendations began in January 2023, through the Fire Services National Oversight and Implementation Group, chaired by David Begg, and that, at the request of SIPTU, negotiations regarding the two priority industrial relations issues identified, structured time off and remuneration, were moved to a third-party facilitation forum chaired by Ultan Courtney;
— that substantial progress was made between the parties in agreeing a revised composite agreement to standardise future employment terms and conditions, to include provision for greater work/life balance which would enable a Retained Firefighter to be away from their station fire-ground area for up to 20 weeks a year; and
— the commitment of the Government to setting out a clear pathway forward on outstanding issues that recognises the crucial role of Retained Firefighters in their community; and
supports Retained Firefighters and their representative negotiating body SIPTU to urgently re-engage with representative bodies, acting on behalf of local authority employers, the Local Government Management Agency, to set out a pathway to resolve the outstanding issues in dispute.".
- (Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage).
I apologise if I lost my temper earlier. I am a great believer in the conventions that rule this House, which are agreed by all, and there is a long-standing convention here. During Covid it changed, but post-Covid I thought we would revert to the Minister distributing his speech among colleagues so we have an opportunity to parse the words of the Minister in real time. It is unfortunate this is the second time this has happened on this issue, and that is a matter of record.
If I drill through the verbiage we have heard from the Minister, I can find nothing that will provide any comfort whatsoever to the firefighters who are out today in towns like Mallow, Mitchelstown, Kanturk, Millstreet, Bray, Drogheda, Nenagh, Balbriggan, Skerries, Athy, Maynooth and Dundalk, to name but a few. What comfort has the Minister given through his words tonight that the issues with pay and conditions and recruitment and retention, which are the kernels of this dispute, will be addressed? The Minister in public utterances was promising he would be delivering good news tonight. Where is the good news? I see no good news that moves the Minister beyond the position he had in November. We have had the surveys, but I see nothing in the Minister's words that will give comfort to the men and women who went out today and are going out again about their pay and conditions and the recruitment and retention issue. Recall the characteristics of these people. They serve their communities, serve us, for what is a pittance of pay when set against the risks they incur on behalf of us, the citizens. I do not believe for a moment a mechanism could not be found outside the formal pay talks that would allow for some exception to be made to allow retained firefighters' pay and conditions to be improved. There is precedence for that and it can be done. A mechanism can always be found.
The people I spoke to in my home town of Mallow have never gone out on strike and were very, dare I say it, anxious about doing that because they are not the type of people to strike. It is in desperation that they strike, because they feel their pay and conditions are so poor and that there is not enough of them to be able to cover the service they are duty-bound to provide. For the Minister to come in here and say there will be a minimum of 12 firefighters in all stations and that he will increase the cohort, if I understood him correctly, by 20% is absolutely laughable. The crisis is now. When does the Minister propose to increase the number in every station to 12 at a minimum? Having listened to the Minister's speech tonight I would not be surprised if more people leave the service. My goodness, the Minister has not a snowball's chance in hell of recruiting more people on the basis of the words he offered up to us here. There is no comfort for anybody who is thinking about coming into the service. In stations like Mallow, which I am familiar with as I live in the town, how is the Minister going to offer more structured time off if there are not more people coming into the service? We have the results of the survey. They are there for all to see. Recruitment and retention is a live issue that is happening now. For the Minister to say, if I understood him correctly, that there will be no reduction to the retained payment is patronising and condescending, or else I do not know what is. That was offered up as some form of positive note to the people who are concerned with this issue. I think people knew there was not going to be a reduction to the retained payment anyway and what we are looking for is an increase.
The Minister has not fully internalised the frustration people are feeling around this issue and has not fully internalised the extent of this problem. We know, because we have been here before through the previous Sinn Féin motion, what the value of a firefighter is to each community and what they deliver. We also know what they sacrifice in the form of the time they have to give and the constraints they are under to deliver a professional service, but the Minister has not come to the table, or to this House, with anything to offer words of comfort. That is reflected in the fact so many firefighters who came here tonight walked away during the Minister's speech, because he offered them nothing and there was the promise of good news. That is the greatest bit of spin I have ever heard, because there is nothing that is good news in the Minister's speech. It is quite insulting.
I return to the point I made earlier, namely, the Government can create an exception for a category of workers in any pay round or negotiation that is outside the norm if the willingness is there to do so. I contend we have here a special category of worker. The views of managers and firefighters were surveyed and 80% of managers said a revised remuneration model with more fixed elements of pay would help with recruitment and retention.
Furthermore, 80% of firefighters said a revised remuneration model with more fixed elements of pay would help with recruitment and retention. Two sides of the same coin, saying the same thing. We have to deal with this issue now.
With the summer that is here, I do not see why the Minister could not revise his position with a view to providing something more concrete than what he has given us here tonight. As a rule, I respect Ministers and the job they have to do. However, when a Minister says outside the Chamber that he is coming with good news and does not deliver on the good news but gives us pretty much the same speech as he gave in November, it is extremely disappointing for the people in the small number of towns I have mentioned, who provide the service to us, the citizens, for what I would consider to be a derisory income. Professional people, real citizens who are on call and who, because of the recruitment and retention crisis, constrain themselves in terms of their own freedom in their family or social lives. They will not walk away from the job because of that dedication to the service. I fear that after tonight, people will be watching these events and will say "What is the point?" The Minister came with absolutely nothing. They will have to wait much longer now for their terms and conditions of employment to be addressed and there was nothing of substance in terms of the recruitment and retention issue. It is a sad indictment of the Government. If they were really serious about it, they could solve this issue in a short space of time.
I thank Sinn Féin and Deputy John Brady in particular for bringing this motion forward. Deputy Brady has worked on this issue for a long time. When I was on Wicklow County Council with him, he put a massive amount of work into the issue. I want to acknowledge that.
The Minister referred to his long-standing admiration for retained firefighters and for their dedication. He said he is conscious of the special responsibility that is placed on him to ensure that the men and women of the service are provided for and empowered to carry out their duties. He said it is a responsibility that he undertakes with the utmost seriousness. I agree completely with my colleague. The Minister's talking earlier about a positive result this evening has completely undermined their trust in him. He did not come in with a positive response or a positive result. Their faith in his willingness and the political will to resolve the issues that have been going on for years and years has been eroded, I would imagine. The fact that they have walked out this evening demonstrates that it has been eroded. Not only does the Minister have a responsibility to deal with this in a serious way, he has a responsibility to treat those involved with respect. Unfortunately, I do not think that has happened this evening. The Minister saying he had a positive response when he did not showed a clear lack of respect for what they do.
I have spent the past few days and weeks talking to firefighters from my constituency in Wicklow to get a sense of how they would like me to represent the issue for them tonight. It was clear that all the men I spoke to absolutely love being and are honoured to be firefighters. It really goes to the core of who they are. They love their community and would do anything to keep it safe. However, when I talk to them I get the sense of desperation from them. The impact this is having on their lives and their families' lives is so difficult. It is not making it impossible for them to do their job because they are still doing that job. However, their family lives are being fundamentally impacted. Not a single one of them wants to be on strike. The Minister recognises that. It goes completely against every single thing they stand for and represent. For them to go on strike is a signal that the Minister really needs to listen to them. It is a signal that they are at breaking point. They are not doing it for themselves. They know that if this line is not drawn in the sand, the retained fire service will be gone in any event. This is their opportunity to make sure that what comes after them is sustainable and strong, and that it still meets the needs of the communities they work in and those of the firefighters and their families.
When I was talking to them, what was really stark was that it is the simple things. It is the really simple things that each of us here takes for granted that they cannot do. The fact that they are on call pretty much constantly means that they cannot do those little things. Some of them cannot get to the shops. If they are in a rural area their local shops might be further away than the 2.5 km. Things like driving their children to football matches, going around the county to hurling, football or soccer matches, they cannot do that. In many instances, they cannot attend birthdays or family events or go on holidays. Someone I was talking to missed the birth of their child because they were on call and could not make it. This is a huge imposition. It is not only an imposition on the firefighters, but also on their families, their partners, spouses, children, parents and extended family. Each of the people in their extended family and immediate family is also carrying this role. They are also doing our communities a service. Through the work they are putting into their families, they are enabling their partners to be the firefighters and to protect communities. It is not just firefighters that this is impacting. That is something that can be forgotten. If I put myself in their shoes, if my partner was out doing this job, I would not be able to stand for it. It is a major commitment that they make.
The reason they have been treated so badly for so long is linked to their sense of commitment. Their sense of duty is so strong that they have not complained about this at all. Even when I was talking to them over the past few days, they did not want to complain too much and were really conscious of not complaining or making it sound like their lives were very difficult. They are not used to reflecting the real hardships that successive Governments have placed on them. We have a two-tier fire service in this country. Those retained firefighters, the men and women who live outside the major urban areas, are expected to go above and beyond, but it is not a two-way street. The Government does not respect them to the extent it should and does not value their service. The Minister may say he does but really, if their service was valued, we would not be debating this issue today as it would have been resolved long before now.
In the context of retention, I do not know how any young person could even think about joining the retained fire service at the moment.
The impact on not only their lives but on those of their families would be so great. I do not see how they can sacrifice so much for us. Many issues need to be resolved. Unfortunately, despite the promises of a positive result, the Minister has come to the Chamber tonight and that has not been provided. The goodwill and the sense of duty the Government has relied on is drying up quickly. These firefighters and the service are being pushed to breaking point.
What is the Minister's alternative? What service will he provide? If we see a full-out strike, what is he going to do? If we see a lot of people leaving the service, what is he going to do? This is not just possible but it is highly likely. Who is going to be at the other end of the call when one of us or our families need to make that call to the fire service? Who are we going to expect to protect us? That is the Minister's responsibility; that is his job. He needs to step in now and make sure the service is fit for purpose. When I talk about it being fit for purpose, I am not just talking about being able to manage the fires that happen or the road traffic accidents that happen. It needs to look after the firefighters and their families and, in turn, that will look after our communities. That is what we need to see.
We need to see concrete measures from the Minister. He needs to find solutions. He must not point to the pay agreements and say that this is not something we can do. He needs to find a solution because there is no alternative.
I want to acknowledge the work of the retained fire service and the commitment firefighters give day in, day out, year in, year out. I hope the Minister reflects on what has been said this evening and makes this work for them. If it does not work for them, it does not work for our wider communities.
I thank Sinn Féin again for the second motion on this issue in seven months. Deputy Whitmore asked what the Minister is going to do if there is a full-out strike. What would that look like? I remember a full-out strike of the fire service in Dublin Airport in the late-1990s. The Ryanair baggage handlers had gone on strike and solidarity for them started to spread through every sector, starting with the shop workers of Aer Rianta, on to the airport police and, ultimately, to the firefighters in Dublin Airport. When the firefighters took a vote to come out in solidarity with the Ryanair baggage handlers, the airport shut down. An airport or anything else cannot be run safety without a fire service. That is how seriously it is taken. The airport literally shut down. Within minutes, at nearly midnight, the Government under Fianna Fáil, intervened and began to try to sort it out. At least it intervened. They did not get full recognition but they got an outcome to that dispute at the time, because the firefighters and the action they took made Fianna Fáil and its Government sit up and realise they had better do something about this because they were not messing.
In regard to what retained firefights do, the Minister spoke about it quite eloquently earlier but it sounded like two different people speaking because on the one hand he eloquently put himself on their side and expressed solidarity, understanding and empathy, but on the other hand he put the knife in and turned it in terms of what they are trying to do. The one thing that strikes me is that every county in the State is desperately trying to recruit new firefighters because of the chronic shortfall, be it Wexford, Waterford or Sligo, and everybody can talk about his or her own area. However, this crisis is not new, and that is for sure. It is telling that the resources and supports are so low down the priority of this Government, that this service lurches from crisis to crisis.
Two years before they tragically died both Mark O'Shaughnessy and Brian Murray took part in a protest in Bray to highlight safety concerns around the under-staffing in the station. That was just two years before they were killed. It is still going on. Whenever we ask questions in this House, we are effectively told by Ministers and by the Taoiseach today that this is an issue for the relevant local authority or the CEO of the local authority. Technically, that is correct. However, the provision and resourcing of fire services cannot and should not be left to a disjointed and fractured system of accountability. It needs and deserves central Government planning, resourcing and oversight.
Passing the buck to 30 separate local authorities, when the crisis we are discussing is clearly nationwide and has new eminence that can only be addressed centrally, is no longer good enough. When we take the idea that retained firefighters must live within a certain distance of their station and be able to get there within five minutes, given the chronic housing and accommodation shortage that we face nationally, it is hardly surprising that the pool of potential firefighters is immediately reduced given the inability to access housing in many of the areas, towns and regions of the State.
I note the workers have voted by an astonishing majority to take action on this. Many of them feel a sort of desperation after years, or decades, of trying to get the State at both local and national levels to take note of this. I remind the Minister that he and his Government have the capacity to solve this dispute now and stop passing the buck to local authorities or anybody else. The Minister should accept the Sinn Féin motion, act on it and ensure local authorities have the resources they need to provide the services and treat workers with the respect they deserve.
I am struck by a number of things in the Minister's countermotion. As I said, this is the second motion the Dáil has debated on retained firefighters in seven months and the issue has been live for many years. We have known for many years that this was an issue Government needed to sort out. It was raised in the Dáil long before I was in it, and I am not in it that long. However, today, the Minister and the Taoiseach, Deputy Varadkar, keep repeating the same mantra we have heard for years that the public sector pay deal is so sacred it must not be upset. They say they would love to help but the public sector pay deal says "No". This is extraordinary because last year we stood with laboratory scientists and technicians who were also forced out on strike because they faced huge issues, glaring injustice and pay inequality. They were forced to take action against the health service and they were met with the same robotic rhetoric that the public sector pay deal says "No". The same was true of the nurses and the student nurses during Covid-19. They had to go out and protest. We were constantly told the Government could not deal with this and that it was not part of the public sector pay deal and that you cannot cherry pick one thing to deal with the other. This is the excuse being used to justify doing nothing.
However, if there is one lesson we can learn from this it is that one size does not fit all. It is shameful that a Government that negotiated a public sector pay deal should now use that to stop being responsible and acting responsibly for outstanding issues in key parts of that public sector.
In the Minister's countermotion, we see a shameful attempt to point the finger of blame at the workers themselves for this dispute, warning that the dispute has created a high-risk environment. It is the Government that has created a high-risk environment, and not the workers. I note also that we will now have two other fora, one overseen by Mr. David Begg and a separate one by Mr. Ultan Courtney. Let us hope that these deliver, but it is an elaborate and Byzantine process to resolve an issue the Minister could literally sort out overnight. With the political will to take this service seriously he could do that and treat these workers with the respect that they deserve. When I say that, I know everybody else is thinking that, of course, it could. It sorted out the banks when they collapsed overnight. When Fianna Fáil was in power the last time, overnight it sorted out the banks and stepped in to bail them out. However, it never seems to be able to step in to bail out workers, even those who we need the most in our towns and cities and shame on it for not doing so on this occasion.
It is not often I am lost for words but I am a bit lost for words now. I know this is difficult for the Minister, Deputy Darragh O'Brien. I can see it in his face and in his uncomfortable shifting around in his seat. I do not doubt this discussion makes him uncomfortable. Some of our front-line workers contacted me today, as did their partners, all of them in tears that they are out on strike. They are devoted to their work. It is life-saving work. They are on call 24-7. I am on call 24-7 as a politician and I am well paid for it. I deserve what I get because I asked for it. I stood up to be elected as a representative. When firefighters are called out of their bed, day or night, they do not know what they are facing. They sometimes encounter relatives who have to be cut down.
In his speech, the Minister said the Government will not reduce firefighters' retainer. He appeared in New Ross some time ago to open the new fire station. He gave a commitment to the fire service there. I have visited the firefighters and spoken to them on several occasions. The Minister committed to having this debacle sorted by Christmas 2022. At some level, I am sure he believes what he is saying. I do not think he is a bluffer. At least I do not think he is the kind of bluffer who would give people false hope, even if his colleagues in the Fianna Fáil Party did ring around every fire service this morning in which workers are on strike to tell them the Minister was going to come in with positive news. What amazes me about the news is that the Government is not known for solving problems. It is known as a Government that creates problems and lets them get to crisis point. With no pun intended, the Government is known for doing a little firefighting of its own because it believes people only notice when an issue is at crisis point. Then it gets solved and that is the vote getter. The Government's sound bite can then be, "We solved that crisis".
This is a crisis that puts the country at risk. The Minister heard what Deputy Bríd Smith said. The firefighters are saying they will close our airports. I do not believe they are bluffing. Nobody could live on the salary of a retained firefighter with the cost-of-living crisis we face today. Is the Government for real? Every front-line member of the Government appeared at Wexford General Hospital when it went up in smoke. They could not get there quickly enough to endorse the fire service and tell its members they were brilliant. All the talk was of "our fire service this" and "our fire service that". Where are those Government members today? They should be ashamed of themselves for exploiting what they believed to be politically expedient and then just sitting back and coming out with tripe. The Minister's statement is tripe. It is nothing firefighters have not heard before.
Deputy Stanley pointed out that the three leaders of the parties currently in government gave Robert Watt, an already overpaid Secretary General, a salary increase of €80,000. That was done at the stroke of a pen. They did not ask anybody if they should do it. They refused to appear before the Committee of Public Accounts to discuss it. They refused even to allow the committee to question the decision until a request was made in that regard. Even after that, there were still no answers. I am not surprised the Minister is shifting around uncomfortably in his seat. I would be damned uncomfortable too if I had put people out, at risk to their own life and limb and on call 24-7, on a retainer of a measly €8,000 or €8,500 a year, while giving an increase of €80,000 to a senior civil servant who is responsible for the longest waiting lists in the health service in the history of the State. That makes me uncomfortable. It makes me uncomfortable that I am well paid. There is no risk to life or limb in my job.
I just cannot understand why this issue has not been resolved. Is it because only 2,000 people are involved? Is it not a big enough vote getter? The Minister hides behind wage and salary agreements. Will he stand up like a man and tell us, or get his leader to tell us, why a senior civil servant who was already well paid got an increase of €80,000? Will he just explain it and give us the thinking behind it? I would have thought the Secretary General was subject to a salary agreement as well. Shame on the Minister.
I often hear people in this House speak about leadership and heroism in reference to ongoing national stories. Throughout the Covid crisis, we heard daily about the mission of people in our public service to save lives and the sacrifices made and the risks engaged in by public sector health workers. Unlike Covid, the emergency situation that faces our retained firefighters has not abated in any way. Every day they attend for duty, they do so in the knowledge they might ultimately be involved in a serious work-related accident or incident that could demand of them unknowingly the ultimate sacrifice. Such a scenario unfolded in 2007 with the loss of two firefighters fighting a blaze in a factory complex in Bray. There is nothing to say such a scenario cannot repeat itself on any other work day in any other part of the country. What value should we as a society place on this type of service?
I recently raised two areas of concern with the Minister. One relates to the Wexford General Hospital fire to which Deputy Verona Murphy alluded. As I said to him, the first fire crew members to respond to that fire were a station officer and a driver mechanic. They had to wait 40 minutes for a fire tender to arrive from Enniscorthy to deal with the fire. But for the bravery of the hospital staff and their organisation in ensuring nearly all the patients were evacuated, there was no loss of life. What discussion might we be having in this House today if 40 or 50 lives had been lost in the Wexford fire, with the resultant need to have fire engines on the scene far sooner?
The fire service is very important to rural Ireland. In my county of Waterford, we have a large hinterland, as the Minister knows, in which the fire service is often the first go-to responder people see, even before the ambulance. People depend on the service. As other Deputies said, retained firefighters certainly do not do what they do for the money. They do it to give service to their community. Many of them give service as first responders, cardiac responders, etc. As Deputy Murphy outlined, we as politicians are well paid. We want our work to be valued and we want to be recognised for the service we give. People who work in the retained fire service are no different.
A firefighter in the retained service in County Waterford outlined to me that one of his big disappointments was that he did not have a decent uniform and nor did any of this colleagues. They had not been provided with them. He told me they did not even have the semblance of a formal-looking group when they attend a funeral for a colleague or somebody in the service or stand in procession at an event. That is a terrible indictment of the treatment of people in a public service role. These people have great pride in the service they provide but they understand the service does not really value them. We must look at that issue.
We would all agree that remuneration is a symbol of the value of work. The recognition of the work one does, and its meaningfulness, is reflected in the remuneration given. Unfortunately, we are giving a clear message to retained firefighters by the remuneration on offer and the inability of the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform and whomever else to do something for retained firefighters. Ultimately, we are telling them they do not matter. That is not the case and it certainly is not the opinion of people where I live.
I noted the Minister's comments on collective bargaining. I contend that this service has long been left out of different rounds of collective bargaining. For that reason, the Minister should do something exceptional for the retained firefighters. I call on the Government to do something exceptional for them. They must finally be recognised for who they are and paid accordingly. They are emergency responders and first responders. They must be supported and remunerated appropriately.
Five speakers from the Rural Independent Group are sharing time, starting with Deputy Michael Healy-Rae.
I was glad to raise this important issue with the Taoiseach earlier today. I spoke about Kerry firefighters, the members of crew KY 18 and all the other people who represent our county so well and do such important work. I thank Sinn Féin for bringing this motion before the Dáil. We in the Rural Independent Group welcome the opportunity it presents to shed light on a matter of the utmost importance. We fully support the motion. We call out the awful lack of Government action to address the concerns of our brave retained firefighters.
These men and women, who selflessly keep our communities safe, have been pushed to the edge, forcing them to take industrial action, which is something they do not want to do. Imagine this: our retained firefighters are bound by restrictions that prevent them from travelling beyond a few kilometres from their stations without permission. Think about the enormous impact this has on their lives and on the lives of their families. They sacrifice so much in order to be local and available. They undergo extensive training and dedicate countless hours to prepare themselves for the unthinkable ask and task of running into burning buildings to save lives. What do they get in return? A guaranteed income that can be as little as €8,696 per year. It does not end there. Recruitment and retention levels have reached a crisis point. A recent Government review revealed that a staggering 58% of currently retained firefighters expressed their intention to leave the service within the next three years. Can we afford to let our firefighting force crumble before our eyes? No. The demands placed on our dedicated firefighters and their families have become unsustainable due to the severe staffing shortages.
I thank Sinn Féin for tabling this very important motion tonight. I thank the fire brigade personnel who were in the Public Gallery but who have walked out in disgust at the Minister's speech which was shocking, after promising that he would come forward with something tonight.
I thank the firefighters in west Cork, Schull, Castletownbere, Bantry, Dunmanway, Bandon, Kinsale and Skibbereen. The fire station in Clonakilty is run down and is in a shocking state, but that is another day's argument.
These men and women give everything to their communities. They put others' lives before their own on many days and on many nights. Tonight, Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael and the Green Party, in the statement the Minister read out, have shockingly insulted every firefighter in this country. Between the Minister and the Taoiseach today they have offered next to nothing to these great people. It is a wonder the Minister did not get up here and offer them extra buttons on their jackets. That is what the Minister is offering. It is absolute peanuts for what they have done. They deserve better. They deserve the respect of the State and for decades they have not had it. Tonight the Minister has further insulted them. The Minister and the Minister of State will not cod these great people who are working for less than €1 per hour every day of their lives.
Consider the Covid-19 period. We all could not move from our homes. This is the retained firefighter's life for 340 days of the year 24-7. The Minister said that he would give them more time off but he will not have these firefighters working in the State if he gives them the time off. What is wrong with the Minister? Does he not understand the crisis that is there? Has he even visited a fire station to see the problems? The Minister said there would be 50 promoted new positions. In Cork county alone that may be less than one. For the love of God stop.
These firefighters do not want to strike but given the way this Government and previous Governments have treated them they are left with no choice. I have met numerous firefighters in west Cork in the past week and they are unhappy at having to switch off their buzzers. I told them the Government is 100% to blame here. If the Government will not bring in the long-awaited changes this is the only hope they have. We are facing an all-out strike from these great men and women. If this is let go, as far as I am concerned it is time for this Government to step aside, especially if the Government is going to leave the citizens of this State in such a dangerous position in the next 24 hours.
I commend the work of our firefighters, and the firefighters in my constituency of Laois-Offaly who work day and night to ensure the safety of so many people and who save lives. What is happening to our firefighters is absolutely shameful. Years of calls for reform and for improvements around the recruitment and retention issues have pushed these dedicated public servants to the edge, resulting in the almost unprecedented threat of an all-out public strike later this month.
I commend and welcome the statement by Offaly County Council that all emergency calls involving life-threatening conditions and situations will continue to be responded to, despite the campaign of industrial action by retained fire fighters. I also commend the work of Offaly’s chief fire officer, Eoin O’Ceilleachair, and all his staff who have put in place robust contingency arrangements to assure members of the public around any risk to them arising from the industrial action.
We have been here before. In County Offaly we have seen our fire stations closed in Banagher, Daingean and Kilcormac due to what we were told was insufficient funding. It is scandalous. Today I call on the Minister, Deputy O'Brien, to not give any tokenistic rhetoric, but to give assurances. These firefighters do not want a clap or a tap on the back. They want respect and they want proper pay.
I am glad to have the opportunity to speak on the motion. I thank Sinn Féin for giving us the opportunity to talk about this very important matter with the Minister, Deputy Darragh O'Brien, and the Minister of State, Deputy Kieran O'Donnell.
We have great firefighters in Kerry and we need them. We need them to stay in their jobs. Right around the Ring of Kerry, from Sneem, Kenmare, Killarney, Cahersiveen, Killorglin, Listowel to Tralee, we depend so much on these brave men and women for the great work that they do. I put it to the Minister that their work is not only fires; it is also serious accidents and tragedies. They deal with hill climbers and people on the lakes. There is something happening all of the time and we need these trained people who have expertise in their jobs. Sadly, there are no Mother Teresas now and they need to be properly paid.
Another issue highlighted to me is that these people are supposed to be part time, but they cannot live on that part-time money. Sometimes they must have other income because they must keep going and keep their families going. The few extra bob they get puts them into the higher tax bracket. The Government needs to do something about that to ensure the payment they get as firefighters should be sacrosanct and should not be taxed, or they should get some special treatment for that money, so it is not added onto the other income they have. What they are getting for firefighting is a pittance when one takes the tax out of the extra money if they go into the higher tax bracket.
We need these people - people like Teddy McCarthy in Sneem who knows the terrain and knows everything that goes on in the whole district he works in. These people cannot go more than 3 km from their homes. It is like being shackled to the bed. If they are putting their children to bed and their buzzer goes off and the wife is gone to the shop, what do they do? If they are putting their mother or father to bed, what do they do? They must drop everything and take to the road and make themselves available to help other people and to save other lives. We must appreciate these people. They have to be properly paid and the Government must do something about the tax they are paying on the extra money that they get.
I thank Sinn Féin for putting down this motion. Have the Minister and the Minister of State - an bheirt Airí - any shame? I know they do not have respect for many groups and organisations in this country and for our front-line workers across a plethora of areas, but the Minster's former colleague Noel Dempsey admitted 22 years ago that this was a problem and had to be sorted out. It has been going on since then. The Minister is here with pious platitudes, talking about an enormous surplus that the Government is going to have. It will be gigantic and yet the Government cannot look after the people who save lives and put themselves on the line to go out and replace ambulances in so many cases because the ambulance service has been driven into the ground and almost finished, with the engines blown out of them and paramedics leaving. They are fatigued having criss-crossed the country just to tick boxes that a call and response is done in so many minutes or seconds after the call went in. It is a con job.
The Minister is the best con artist that ever came into this House. I know him for a long time and I know what kind of a bluffer he is, along with the Dublin brigade before him. This is scandalous. The firefighters walked out tonight in disgust because the Minister would not respect them. He told them he had nothing to give to them. He tried to blame the Local Government Management Agency, LGMA. The LGMA has clearly stated it does not have the money to pay them. The Minister must get in or get out: either put out the fire or let the house burn.
The Government does not care but it will get some burning when it goes to the polls. My God, there will not be enough fire engines or water to stop the fire. People are sick, sore and sorry. They are tired of the Government's pious platitudes, with the green tail wagging the dog and all the kinds of policies that drive people off the land. The Government will not look after the people who looked after us, the Garda men and women, and the wonderful firefighter men and women. I meet them every week in Bray when they are up for the training sessions from all over the country. They do five or six weeks training each year. They have to be on call. They cannot go to a wedding, a church mass or a meeting because they must be on call and within 3 km or within five minutes or less of their stations. They do this gallantly. They do it nobly and they want to do it.
They do not want to be on strike. They want to be at home and at the beck and call of the service. I salute them for giving the skeleton service at the moment to ensure that up and down the country, and especially in Tipperary, there will be firemen and women to stay to put out fires and look after us. The Government, however, does not deserve to be looked after. It deserves an bóthar díreach. It deserves the door. Get out of this place and leave it to somebody who can run it.
I am sharing time with Deputy Connolly. I am happy to support this motion on the retained firefighters and I thank Sinn Féin for bringing it forward.
It is a sad reflection on the Department and on the Government that the firefighters feel they have no other option but to take strike action to have their concerns listened to by the Government. The firemen have commenced a rolling stoppage throughout the country to ensure we have no area without coverage while trying to have their grievance heard as well. This is something they do not do easily and that has to be recognised.
The Government has even recognised the problem itself but, as usual, wants to ignore the solution. In a recent statement by the Department, 58% of current firefighters are likely to leave the service in the next few years. The situation is so bad that many stations can only manage a bare turnout and cannot let anyone go on leave because they were not able to answer a call at all. At least one station in Donegal is down to five firemen. In another station area, advertisements were made for staff recruitment with no applications because of the area rule where firemen have to be living within 2.5 km of the station.
Donegal County Council refuses to give staff time off to attend fire calls and yet it expects employers to give their staff the time to attend call-outs, which is absolutely crazy when you think about it. How can we expect employers to support the fire service when the councils will not even do it themselves as the primary employer and provider of the service?
The fire service plays a very important role in our communities and deserves the support of everyone in the country and the Government. The retained fire crew have the needs of the community at heart and are willing to sacrifice a great deal to be able to carry out the role. I know firemen who have not attended family shopping trips and events, football matches of teams they are involved in and the like because, when they went to the station to mark themselves off as unavailable for call-outs, the minimum number of crew had already been reached so they could not avail of any off time. In this day and age that is difficult for them and their families. There are very few roles in our society today in which workers would be willing to put so much at stake. That, I believe, has to be recognised by the State.
What the firemen are looking for is very reasonable. To have the crew at the station extended to 12, which would allow for a week-on, week-off roster, makes perfect sense. It would get over the need for crews to have to book time off as they would know what weeks they are on all of the time.
The restriction on distance that recruits live from the station needs to be managed as well. It is possible to have people live further away and still manage the call-out times, because it is not possible to recruit on the basis of the distances that are required in many station areas. Surely, if we cannot have enough firemen for a call-out at all, that is even more difficult. There is probably a need for flexibility on that issue, and some areas more than others might have difficulty in actually meeting the distances. I believe that can also be managed through proper management locally.
As I understand it, many of the restrictions are in place under legislation that dates back to the 1950s, and if that is the case it is in bad need of upgrading at this stage. The service needs to be dynamic and recognise that life and society have changed significantly since then. It is totally understandable that the rates of pay should go a long way towards recognising how to make it affordable for somebody to be a member of the fire service, if he or she decides to do that. This is something which should be recognised across society because firefighters play a significant role in the local community and help the local community to defend itself in times of need. That should be recognised.
The Government and the local authorities are taking a dangerous stance on this strike by still rostering on-duty fire crews who are on strike. It is trying to make the crews guilty for anything that may happen. I hope nothing does, but that is very disappointing and it is also a very disappointing tactic for the Government to employ at this stage.
I thank Sinn Féin for the motion, which I support. Perhaps the inconsistency in the Minister’s speech and in his countermotion might capture why we have a problem here because he describes the retained firefighters as “an elite front-line service staffed by [very] dedicated, selfless people serving their communities around the clock”. That is lovely and I agree with him totally. In his amendment, the Minister then goes on to blame them for creating a risk environment by their action where he states “the current dispute has created a high-risk environment for firefighters and the public which is deeply undesirable”. I do not believe that firefighters are having a rolling stoppage with full industrial action planned without a reason.
The Retained Fire Services in Ireland: A Review of Recruitment and Retention and the Future Sustainability of Service Delivery report is worth reading. It seems like a bulky report but it is only actually 38 pages. The rest is all appendices. When you look at that and ask how we got to this point, because this is one report on top of possibly decades of reports going back certainly to 2002, we can look at the actual recommendations in this report. There are 13 of them and I would have thought the Minister would have gone through these recommendations during the debate and would have told us which ones have been complied with.
On something as basic as recommendation 8, which states, “Local Authorities should consider holding appropriate exit interviews with retained firefighters, to determine reasons for leaving the service”, can we imagine we needed a report for this, commissioned by the Minister in attendance, and fair play to him for doing that? Can the Minister tell me if that has been done by the local authorities? This is the most basic action. I would have thought the local authorities would not have needed a report to do that.
I would not have thought they would have needed a recommendation that panels would be kept because there is total inconsistency on panels. Not all local authorities keep panels, so they then have to do a recruitment campaign, and at a conservative estimate on page 16 of that report, the cost of such recruitment works out at €17,200 per recruit every time the local authority does that.
These are basic recommendations, 13 in number. Recommendation 2 states that “A new framework for service delivery is required”. I understand that needs negotiation.
Recommendation 1 states “A review of the existing guidance should be undertaken in the context of the Area Risk Categorisation of a fire station". This is something I would consider to have been fairly basic.
Recommendation 3 states “Guidance should be provided on the arrangements for retained firefighters taking the various types of leave including annual, certified and uncertified sick leave, maternity leave”. Again I would consider these to be absolutely basic. I ask the Minister if we needed a report to tell us this.
Recommendation 4 states “The current Occupational Health Medical scheme for members of the retained fire services should be reviewed”. We must remember we have just described the firefighters as an elite front-line service and that we cannot do without them. These are the basic requirements which have been identified as missing.
The panels are referred to and recommendation 5 states, “Guidance should be provided nationally on a standardised process for the recruitment of a retained firefighter.” Recommendation 6 states, “A review should be completed for any potential areas of response work that could be undertaken by the retained fire services for other agencies.” Again this is something which is completely practical.
Recommendation 11 states “Communications and public relations should be developed, to include national and local programmes” so that the role of the firefighter can be told to the public.
Recommendation 9 states, “Local Authorities should put in place initiatives and events to recognise the contribution retained firefighters and their families make to their communities.” We are told in another part of this report that the firefighters are embedded in the community and yet they feel completely unrecognised by the establishment and so on.
These are 13 recommendations which are completely basic. On the issue of diversity, almost 99% of firefighters are men with almost no women. There is no diversity whatsoever and that is a known fact for a very long time.
On employers, they have absolutely no incentive to allow retained firefighters to take time off to do their essential duties. Can you imagine that employers have no such incentive? Even worse, local authorities say retained firefighters cannot do the two jobs. The people who should be leading, who are in charge of the service and who are presiding over this say that if a person takes a job with them in a different capacity, that person cannot be a retained firefighter. Has the Minister read this report? These are the basic facts before we ever get to the retainer fee or the other conditions which have forced retained firefighters to go out on strike, and we are sitting here condemning them, saying that they are creating a risky environment.
A total of 58% of the firefighters claimed they are likely to leave the service in the next three years. I have referred to diversity, or the lack of it, and the lack of inclusion, where 1.6% of retained firefighters are females. The report tells us this is significantly below other sectors but the reasons were not fully explored, so who cares. The report did not bother to ask, wonder or follow up why 1.6% of women wanted to take a job as a firefighter.
The report states, “Over 80% of fire service managers agree that higher crewing levels with more structured time off would help recruitment.” Nothing has been done about that.
On implementation, the report states “The retained fire services are considered to be providing a cost-effective and efficient service in principle [this is what the report tells us, where the report uses the word “and” instead of “but”] and there is an urgent requirement to develop and evolve the model”. Will the Minister tell me, therefore, what has happened since that report was published? Which of those basic requirements and recommendations have been implemented? Let us take the exit interview, as an example. I will not go over time and I thank the Acting Chairman.
I thank the Deputies for tabling this debate. I was reflecting on the fact we all know retained firefighters. They are our neighbours and friends. They are in every town and village in Ireland. The Minister, Deputy O'Brien, said two key things here tonight. No one wants this dispute to continue. We want to find a way out. We recognise the phenomenal work retained firefighters do.
Deputy Connolly made reference to the report. It is a good and concise report which makes 13 recommendations that are all cogent and to the point. They form the basis for discussions led by David Begg and for the second iteration. Progress has been made. Not all matters have been progressed. Some of the issues have been dealt with. The Deputy referred to the fact that, according to the report, structured time off is a huge factor for 52% of the retained firefighters. In the discussions that took place, it was agreed under the composite agreement that a retained firefighter can be away from the station fire ground area for up to 20 weeks per year. Other issues also came under the terms of the review report, including 50 additional promotion positions, flexibility to attend calls when not scheduled, a widening of the premium hours band, and additional earnings potential in the areas of pre-incident planning and home fire safety visits.
The Minister gave a commitment tonight that he will issue instructions to look at the driver mechanic grade with SIPTU and at expanding the premium hours band. The biggest issue is the amount being paid under the retained firefighter's fixed payment. That is the issue. Anyone who has a background in anything to do with industrial relations and unions will know we have an industrial relations mechanism, namely, the WRC. We encourage SIPTU to take up the Minister's offer to re-engage with the WRC. Second, we have collective pay agreements.
What about Robert Watt? What agreement did that come under?
Deputy, this is not a question and answer session.
With due respect, I am more interested in finding a solution and a pathway to resolving this issue and concluding the dispute. I have spoken to retained firefighters. They do not want to be out on strike. They are perfectly entitled democratically to go out on strike, but those I have met do not wish to be out on strike. We want to find a pathway to resolve the dispute effectively. We want retained firefighters to stay in the service and we want to recruit more. The Minister commissioned the report to get to the facts. The facts are that a significant proportion of retained firefighters are considering not staying in the service. The question is how to address that, first, through industrial relations. SIPTU represents the retained firefighters. How do we find a mechanism in normal industrial relations to find a solution? Ultimately, it is difficult if people are not talking to one another. It is an old principle. People need to be talking to one another. A mechanism is available through the WRC. Furthermore, the Minister gave a commitment through the national collective pay agreement which will be getting under way - a new one is coming - that he will advocate to ensure retained firefighters are looked after.
I acknowledge the phenomenal work retained firefighters do. They are vital to dealing with fires.
It is sickening to hear this reverberated
The Deputy had her opportunity to speak. We will hear the Minister of State without interruption.
Has the Deputy read the report?
The report how are you? I have read four reports since 2002, none of which was actioned. Has the Minister of State read it?
Yes, absolutely. This report forms the basis for discussions. SIPTU was involved in formulating it. It makes the issues crystal clear.
Will the Minister of State present to the Dáil the report that gave Robert Watt €80,000 at the stroke of a pen and that was not subject to anyone's agreement?
The Minister of State is here to respond to the debate that has already occurred and should not be subjected to running commentary. We will hear the Minister of State without interruption.
It is simple. We have to find a way out of this dispute with the retained firefighters. We cannot continue to have disputes. It is not good for retained firefighters or for dealing with issues on the ground when there are fires. What is being put forward is that the Government is asking SIPTU to make use of the normal industrial relations machinery, which is the WRC, to re-engage and talk to the LGMA on behalf of the local authorities, which employ the retained firefighters, to find a way to get this resolved.
It is not fair to say that some issues have not been addressed. Many of the issues that came up in the report have been addressed. The main issue that remains from the retained firefighters' side is the amount of the fixed retainer payment. I appreciate that, but ultimately we are calling for the firefighters, and more particularly their representative body, SIPTU, to re-engage with the WRC. That is not an unreasonable request. The retained firefighters do phenomenal work on the ground. We have to find a solution to resolve this. The Minister has dealt with this in good faith. It is not fair that people are saying there is not good faith in this. There is. The report would not have been commissioned if not.
It is correct. The report lays out exactly in its 13 recommendations what we need to do by working with Departments, retained firefighters through SIPTU, the employers through the LGMA and with the Government to find a mechanism to deal with this. There is a national pay agreement that applies across the entire public sector. Negotiations on a new agreement are about to commence. The Minister has given a firm commitment to advocate for retained firefighters to deal with the issue of increased pay for the retained firefighter's fixed payment. There must be an acknowledgement that we have a national industrial relations mechanism, which is the WRC.
We are calling on retained firefighters. I do not think there are any retained firefighters in the House. I know many of them so I know what is happening on the ground. I know the issues that arise. If we look at the make-up of the fire services according to the report, one third of firefighters are self-employed, one third have another form of income and one third work in the firefighters service. For people on the ground, one of the issues of huge significance that came out of the report was being tied to the area within 2.5 km of the fire station. Already agreement has been reached with SIPTU that firefighters will have up to 20 weeks per year in which that will not arise. That is progress. The Minister has also given a commitment to look at expanding the hours of the premium rates. One issue that came up with the firefighters I met was the driver mechanic grade and the Minister has given a commitment to look at that immediately. Fundamentally, in the spirit of partnership and positivity, I acknowledge that SIPTU and the retained firefighters have abided by and are working with the emergency code that was agreed in 1992, but we ask that they accept the request of the Minister to re-engage with the WRC to find a resolution to this collectively.
I thank Deputies Ó Broin and Brady for putting this motion forward. It is important and I ask the Government to withdraw its amendment. The fact that it includes the statement that "a high-risk environment" has been created for the public by this action by firefighters is shameful and that needs to be withdrawn. Firefighters have taken this action because of Government inaction.
I want to extend solidarity to firefighters in County Meath in Navan, Trim, Kells, Dunshaughlin, Oldcastle, Nobber and Ashbourne stations, and right across the State. I was happy to stand with firefighters at Kells and Ashbourne stations this morning. We know they do not want to be there. These firefighters include people I went to school with, I played football with and I know in my life, and they include others I have met in recent weeks as they have tried to avoid this scenario. Their dedication is immense and there is a huge mental and physical demand on them. It is dangerous work that not everybody can or will do. There are huge demands on their time, 24-7 and 365 days per year.
The Minister suggested there will be flexibility on the 2.5 km and on days off. I do not know if the Minister has realised that there is a recruitment crisis, and it is not just in conditions but also in pay. We have a scenario where the service cannot recruit. The Minister needs to deal with all of it. There is no point in saying we will deal with A, B, C and D when the service cannot recruit staff. In Ashbourne there was a recruitment process, ten applied and nine of them walked away from it. The service cannot recruit and retain staff and it does not have cover. I met them and they told me they cannot go on honeymoons or leave the area. What is going on is completely unsustainable.
I mention the suggestion from the Government that it is for the WRC and a collective pay agreement. The firefighters voted with their feet tonight and they see exactly what Government is doing. The Government needs to intervene. In what world is a retainer the same as a salary? It simply is not the same. The Government needs to intervene and address this.
I do not know any retained firefighter who wants to be on strike. Eight months ago I stood on the main street in Creeslough and I saw retained part-time firefighters rush into a building that had collapsed. I saw them work through the night and work diligently and respectfully as they recovered ten bodies from that scene. Today those firefighters and their colleagues are on strike. Why? It is not because they do not love their jobs; they love their jobs. It is not because they do not love their communities; they love their communities. They do not want to be on strike but they know there is a crisis in the service.
The Minister talks about extra recruitment but it has been said over and over again that people are not joining the service because of the requirements that are placed on them. They receive €8,500 to carry a bleeper that says they cannot leave their communities or the vicinity of the fire station, within 2.5 km, on any day of the week or in any week in the year. We all got a taste of what it meant to be confined to a 3 km radius during the lockdown and the pandemic. This is their life day after day, week after week, month after month and year after year. They miss out on vital and important issues, including football matches, christenings and so on and so forth, because they love their jobs. They are making it very clear there needs to be an increase in their core pay and retainer to encourage other people to join them.
We all recognise the heroism these retained firefighters show. They show it every single day in responding to the types of tragedies we see in our communities. They rush into burning buildings, they are highly skilled and they have a passion for what they do. They need more than plaudits or soft words from Government; they need action. It falls on the shoulders of the Minister and the Minister of State. Those individuals who rushed into that building in Creeslough, the individuals who rush into burning buildings, and the individuals who rescue those in collisions are on strike. That should not happen. These are the heroes in our communities. The Minister needs to engage properly to ensure they are not just respected but are paid properly in the retainer that is being offered. That is what is needed here, not soft words from Government.
I will give the Minister and the Minister of State the live messages that are coming in. One message states, "The crews are more angry now after listening to this crap." Another states, "This Government has just given the middle finger to all firefighters and their families tonight." Another states, "I am now four years living in a van because I cannot get a mortgage or even find a place to rent." These are all live messages I am getting.
Retained firefighters are first responders. They do one of the most mentally and physically taxing jobs in the country, but I also want to make a point about the bravery of stationmasters, and I will quote from a report by Cork Beo last week as follows:
'I want people to understand the sacrifices we make' - Cork firefighter speaks out ahead of strikes
"What’s it going to take? For somebody to lose their life before they realize changes need to be made?"
On Christmas Day, Midleton Fire Station Officer Mark Sinclair sat down with his family. As his mother tried to ask if he was on call, she couldn't get the words out of her mouth before his pager went off and Mark had to rush down to the station, suit up and save lives.
Moments like that are just one example of the sacrifices fire service members have to make every day. It's a job that requires a commitment like no other, where only those truly passionate about helping their community stay for the long haul.
In the article Mark went on to say that the firefighters must live within 2.5 km of the station so they can respond to calls quickly. He went on to say:
During Covid and the lockdowns, what radius were you allowed to travel in? 5km? We have to live and work within half of that.
I ask the Minister and the Minister of State to withdraw their amendment. There has been too much talk in here. These people do an indescribable job. They turn up at the worst things ever because they are first on the scene. I have dealt with them over the years like everybody else has, including in cases of suicide. I can go back to my brother's suicide in 2002 and I asked the firefighters and a bangharda that night if they get counselling for this and they told me they do not. You can imagine the firefighter coming in and that being the first thing they see on the scene.
We have so disrespected the people who we really depend on during crises. I appeal to this Government, for once let us all do the right thing in this House. There is a very angry group simmering and bubbling up outside this House and the Government will suffer for it so I ask the Minister and the Minister of State to do the right thing. Support our motion and withdraw the Government amendment.
When I read the Minister's amendment to the motion I thought he was simply not going to make things better. Little did I know that when he read the text of his speech he would make things immeasurably worse. The mood with which the retained firefighters present in the Gallery walked out just as the Minister was finishing his remarks speaks volumes.
There is a fundamental flaw at the heart of the Minister’s proposition. The WRC cannot resolve this dispute because for it to make progress on any of the issues that have been mentioned, the issue of core pay and the rate of the retainer have to be dealt with. The LGMA does not have additional funds to deal with that issue so that requires an intervention from Government. Staff numbers cannot be increased by 20% on the current retainer. It is not possible and we will continue to lose staff. If we continue to lose staff, there cannot be structured time off or individual flexibility for availability etc. The idea that the Government is approaching this in a manner of reconciliation for workers and their representatives to go back to a process that is designed to fail is an insult.
Our proposition is straightforward; it is for the Minister to engage directly with the representatives of workers to resolve this matter. Even if he is not willing to do that, the Minister knows he has options other than standing on the sidelines, like a spectator at Croke Park, urging people in national pay agreement talks to do the right thing. The Minister knows it is possible for Government to request the Labour Court to conduct an inquiry into an industrial dispute of public and national interest, and then make recommendations to Government. That is one possible route to deal with the concern the Minister has raised.
No matter what way the Minister cuts it, unless this Government makes a simple decision that the base rate of pay of the men and women of the retained fire service is not acceptable, that the only way to stop the deepening crisis in that service is to raise that rate of pay, and then, from that, to allow all of the other recommendations of the report to be realised, this crisis will get worse. The Minister said at the start of his speech, as he said in November, that he has long-standing admiration and interest in the work of the fire service. It is now in his power to stop the rot, halt the crisis and respect these men and women, not with words but with actions and proper remuneration. If he does not do that, his words are hollow, they mean nothing, and this crisis will continue. I commend the motion to the House.
Amendment put.
A division has been called. In accordance with Standing Order 80(2), the division is postponed until the weekly division time on Wednesday, 14 June 2023.
