Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 15 Jun 2023

Vol. 1040 No. 2

Saincheisteanna Tráthúla - Topical Issue Debate

Visa Applications

Deputy Robert Troy

I welcome the opportunity to raise the issue of visa processing times. I am conscious in doing so of the importance of the process. The process cannot be compromised. A visa is a very important document, enabling foreign nationals to enter our country. First, I want to raise the issue of the atypical visa and the serious delays in the processing time. As we know, it is a requirement for nurses coming to work in Ireland. I want to take this opportunity to welcome a number of retired nurses from my constituency who are visiting the Dáil today and are in the Gallery. When one goes onto the Department's website and inquires about an atypical visa, the turnaround time is 20 working days. We have read recent reports in the national papers that up to 850 nurses are coming from overseas who are affected by this. Without our overseas nurses, our health service would be in a much sadder situation. They provide such an important role in our health service.

Recently, I met a nursing home group which has a base in my constituency. It advises me that it has up to a dozen applications for this visa waiting for 80 days at a time, where online sources state it is a 20-day turnaround. This only began in March. Prior to that, the group said there was minimal disruption. Since March, however, there have been significant delays and inconsistencies in processing applications. Reasons for refusal include the metadata of documents submitted. Maybe the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, might be able to advise me, if the Department of Justice has advised her, about what the metadata of submitted documents is. Sometimes they seek clarification from the atypical visa office and there has been no feedback of any kind. Another reason for refusal is the missing middle name in one document. The inconsistency in the application of these documents is causing a huge difficulty.

Nurses have come here. They have given notice in their home countries. They have made life-changing decisions. The bureaucracy here is having a huge impact on their life-changing decisions. I recently met a constituent who is married to a non-Irish national. I do not want to identify countries involved because it is a private matter. I acknowledge that the embassy I am dealing with is most helpful. He is trying to get his wife over to visit him here when he comes to Ireland. He has spent 12 months going through a process to get his wife to visit him and, again, it is not being processed.

What is the issue with the processing times of the atypical visas? I have given another example, of a private citizen looking for a visa for his wife to visit. Again, there seems to be a prolonged period to have that application processed, and it was subsequently refused. We know of the recent decision to discontinue the immigrant investor programme, which brings much-needed funding into many community groups throughout the country. Is the Department of Justice immigration section understaffed, under-resourced or what is going on that has caused so many problems with various visa processes, particularly in recent months?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy welcomed his visitors, who are retired nurses. Most of them are women. I have never known women to retire. They work endlessly.

Minister of State at the Department of Health (Deputy Anne Rabbitte)

I thank Deputy Troy for raising this important issue and for bringing this matter to the attention of the Minister, Deputy McEntee. I am taking it on behalf of the Minister. I am happy to set out for the Deputy and the House the measures the Department of Justice is taking to resolve the current issues in processing atypical working scheme applications.

The atypical working scheme was developed by the Department of Justice and the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment to facilitate specialised, highly skilled employment of a short term nature, normally less than 90 days, which was not supported by the mainstream permit process.

The atypical working scheme is designed to accommodate the arrival of non-EEA nationals to fill labour gaps for the benefit of our economy in the short term.

I advise the Deputy that there has been an unprecedented demand for atypical working scheme permissions so far this year and, based on current intake, it is anticipated to be the busiest year since its inception. The number of applications received this year to the atypical working scheme to the end of May was 5,376. This is a massive increase on the same period last year, which saw just 3,260 applications. The current processing time for applications is approximately 35 days. Where there are issues with an atypical application, the atypical working scheme unit strives to return an application for correction, or request further documentation, rather than move to outright refusal. This is to assist with applicants and not to cause any undue cost or delay.

The immigration service regularly holds training seminars on the atypical working scheme application process for stakeholders. The HSE and employer forums have all been invited to attend training seminars that have been organised so far this year. Furthermore, the atypical working scheme unit has made training material available to all recruitment companies or to nursing homes that directly recruit their staff. I also remind the Deputy that where an applicant is granted an atypical permission, the non-national may be required to make an application for a visa in order to travel to the State. All visa applications are processed in chronological order based on the date of receipt. Guidelines on how to apply for a visa are available on the immigration website.

The intention of the atypical working scheme unit is to return the current processing time of 35 days to the business target of 20 working days. I am advised by the Minister, Deputy McEntee, that increased resources have been assigned to processing atypical applications. Additional streamlining measures have also been recently introduced with the aim of reducing processing times.

Deputy Robert Troy

A Leas-Cheann Comhairle, I said that people had retired from the nursing profession. I did not say they had retired fully, to clarify the point.

I take on board the Minister of State is reading out a response that came from the Department of Justice, but I will share with her the experience of quite a significant nursing home provider. Despite its attempts to seek clarification from the atypical office, it has received no feedback at any point and is left to decipher the confusing automated responses it received. Consequently, its nurse candidates have had to cancel their scheduled Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland, RCSI, exam dates and the provider is forced to resubmit their visa applications in the hope they will be approved. At present, the provider has submitted applications as far back as 15 March 2023, none of which has been approved. Following the submissions of the visas, additional information was requested 36 days later, despite the Department statement that it takes 20 days to process applications. The provider promptly resubmitted the requested information and has now been waiting an additional 40 days for an update since its return to the Department.

Clearly, what the Department is saying is not the experience the people on the ground are feeling. I need the Minister of State to bring back to the Minister for Justice that we need to see a rapid improvement in the processing times for these visas. Our nursing homes and hospitals depend on our ability to get these people, who are choosing to come to work and contribute to Ireland, and on them being dealt with in a fair, efficient and punctual manner. That is not happening currently.

I know the Minister of State cannot answer the question today, but I would like to know what additional resources are being made available to the visa processing unit, considering what is happening with the atypical visa and the example I gave from my constituent. Perhaps she will bring back to the Minister whether the demands on the visa processing unit led to the discontinuation of the immigrant investment programme.

Deputy Anne Rabbitte

I thank the Deputy. I assure him that the Minister, Deputy McEntee, recognises and acknowledges the crucial role non-nationals play in our health sector workforce. They often work in challenging environments and deal with vulnerable people on a daily basis. Their exceptional commitment was particularly clear throughout the Covid pandemic. It is important for me to say, as the Minister of State with responsibility for disability, how much I depend on, and how I am trying to accelerate disability into, that exact space.

In recognition of the importance of front-line medical personnel, the atypical working scheme unit in the Department's immigration services prioritises these applications. In line with the unmatched number of atypical applications received so far this year, the number of applications being processed and decided upon has also risen. As I stated, more staff have recently been assigned to the atypical working scheme unit to assist with processing these applications. Streamlining measures have been introduced to return the current processing time to the business target of 20 working days. The atypical working scheme unit continues to liaise with all relevant stakeholders in the area and will continue to provide training and seminars to the sector.

I will find out what additional resources there are in response to the Deputy's query on that. I will ask whether that lack of resources has impacted on the investor programme.

Healthcare Infrastructure Provision

Deputy David Stanton

I thank the Ceann Comhairle's office for selecting this Topical Issue and the Minister of State for being present. The integrated care programmes for older people, ICPOP, hub is probably one of the most exciting and positive developments I have seen in health in quite a while. It looks after people with chronic diseases through an ambulance centre. People can go there, be looked after, travel and so on.

On 10 February 2022, which is more than a year ago, we had a presentation from HSE south on this very exciting and positive development. The HSE proposed the establishment of three hubs, one of which was to be in Mallow. I understand from a parliamentary question I tabled that quite a number of staff have been recruited and appointed to the hub. Unfortunately, however, up to recently there was no hub, so there was no place for them to work. I understand that in the past couple of days since my parliamentary question was tabled there has been some movement, which I welcome. I want to see more of that movement and the hub established. The HSE said at the time that it was a work in progress but it is quite a bit of time since February 2022. The HSE is now establishing a hub in the primary care centre in Mallow, in addition to some other places.

This initiative will be of huge benefit to people. I ask the Department and the Minister of State to support the further roll-out of this project, to ensure that an adequate premises is identified, located and made available for people who are working there, and that the staff, who have been recruited and are very excited about this, can actually begin their work. I understand some of them may have been doing very little for the past while. For instance, I received a report from the HSE indicating that the total number of patients in north Cork reviewed in May by the respiratory team was 11. From what I can see in the report, three people are working on that team but just 11 patients were seen in a month by those three professionals. The Minister of State is good at maths; she can work that out. There were 66 people seen by the diabetes team, again, in a month. People on those teams could probably be doing an awful lot more and want to do more. It is just a matter of getting it done.

I will raise another issue. The Minister of State will know the geography and that Mallow is in the centre of north Cork, but it covers a big area. It is covering community healthcare organisation, CHO, areas 4, 5 and 6, as far as Youghal, which is more than an hour's drive away. We need to start planning ahead to get these hubs spread out a little more. Cork is a big county. If somebody has to drive 74 km and take more than an hour and ten minutes to get to Mallow, they probably will not do it. We either have to move staff to where those people are or, ideally, plan ahead to open another hub, possibly in Youghal or somewhere in east Cork to care for those people.

It is a very positive development. I am not here to criticise, attack or give out but I encourage the Minister of State, the Department and the fantastic people in the HSE who put this together to drive it on, make it happen, get the staff working and get the service out to the people who need, want and deserve it. As I said, it will make a huge difference to people. It is a home support.

People can live at home, get the support they need without having to go into a hospital and manage chronic diseases such as respiratory diseases, diabetes and cardiac issues. I look forward to the Minister of State's response.

Deputy Anne Rabbitte

I am taking this on behalf of the Minister, Deputy Donnelly, and the Minister of State, Deputy Butler, both of whom are actively involved in this. I thank Deputy Stanton for raising this issue and providing me with the opportunity to update the Dáil thereon.

This Government is committed to the delivery of Sláintecare and to providing increased levels of service in primary care and community settings. Significant funding in recent years, including provision of annual funding of €195 million in 2023, is enabling the implementation of the enhanced community care, ECC, programme, which represents a programmatic and integrated approach to the development of the primary and community care sector. The programme aims to expand capacity in primary care and enable the reorientation of service delivery towards general practice and community-based services, thereby providing health services closer to a person’s home and reducing pressure on acute hospitals. It also enables a population-needs approach, enabling better local decision-making and involving citizens in determining the health needs of their local community.

The ECC has made excellent progress to date in establishing community healthcare networks, CHNs, and community specialist teams, CSTs, to provide care to older people and those with chronic disease in primary and community settings, with 94 of the 96 planned CHNs and 47 of the planned 60 CSTs already operational and providing services to patients nationally.

CSTs are consultant-led, multidisciplinary teams who provide integrated specialist healthcare to patients, with the teams for older persons and those for chronic disease management colocated in ambulatory care hubs in the community, conveniently located closer to home, thereby preventing unnecessary hospital attendances for those requiring access to these services. The hubs are usually adjacent to a primary care centre, with clinical governance being provided through the local model 3 or model 4 hospitals.

Already this year, the 23 operational specialist teams for older persons, which are part of the integrated care programme for older persons, which the Minister of State, Deputy Butler, would call the ICPOP, have delivered more than 22,000 patient contacts, with 12% of referrals being seen on the same day or the next day of referral. Some 64% of the patients treated by these ICPOP teams were discharged home, avoiding admission to hospital, where clinically appropriate to do so, and facilitating the home-first approach to care which is a key objective of the ECC programme.

The 24 operational CSTs for chronic disease management, CDM, have increased access to specialist care to those with COPD, asthma, cardiovascular disease and diabetes in the community setting, are aligned to the GP chronic disease management programme and have provided more than 28,000 patient contacts already this year, with almost 168,000 patients having been reviewed by their GP as part of the CDM programme.

The north Cork CDM hub will be located in Mallow, as the Deputy said, and will deliver services to the catchment area serviced by the CHN, namely, north-east Cork, east central Cork, Mallow, Charleville, Newmarket, Kanturk and Millstreet, a population of around 150,000. Recruitment of the required integrated care programme for chronic disease management, ICPCDM, consultant and health and social care professionals to staff the CST in the hub is ongoing and the HSE endeavours to have the hub operational as soon as possible.

I take on board what the Deputy said on the catchment area, population base and geography challenges.

Deputy David Stanton

I thank the Minister of State for her response. This is a positive development but we need more of it. The fact this was announced in February 2022 and staff were recruited later that year without a hub being available is a concern. I also understand we have not had consultants. It is supposed to be consultant-led, according to the Minister of State’s response, but I do not think any consultants have been appointed in that time. This is hugely important.

Quite a number of people are referred to in the response I got from the HSE: operational leads; project officers; administrative officers; clinical nurse specialists – there are four of those; staff nurses; rehab co-ordinator; senior physiotherapists; staff in cardiology and respiratory; and dieticians and podiatrists. All are in position but do not have a place to carry out their work. We need movement on this. We need to see it established and to get these people working and then broaden out this programme to different parts of the country.

The Minister of State said the north Cork CDM hub, which will be located in Mallow, will serve a population of 150,000 people. Mallow is the centre, which is great, but Youghal is at one end of it and Millstreet at the other. The distances are fairly large so if we expect people who are chronically ill to travel those distances, it will take quite a while every day and involve cost. We need to broaden our thinking and look at ambulance centres in places like east Cork, Youghal, Newmarket and Kanturk so people will not have to travel such distances but can go to the specialisms in their areas. Ambulant walk-in centres are the future. It is a fantastic programme. I encourage the Department, the HSE and the Minister to drive this forward and make it happen.

Deputy Anne Rabbitte

I am very conscious of sticking to the script on this one or the Minister of State, Deputy Butler, would have words with me but I agree with what the Deputy said on capital. Capital investment is once-off investment and is the solid foundation required for the teams to work out. I could be so bold as to say I hear what the Deputy is saying on the outreach model and satellite piece that needs to be put in place, but I will stick to the script.

We have a growing and ageing population and through ambitious reforms, such as the ECC programme, we are responding to the changing needs of those who use our services by changing how and where we deliver healthcare. The programme is already delivering increased levels of healthcare in the primary care and community setting, with the CSTs delivering consultant-led integrated specialist services in locations closer to home for those who most need it, namely, older persons and those with chronic disease.

As previously highlighted, an important element of this programme is the provision of 30 CSTs for chronic disease nationwide, with 24 of the 30 already operational and providing the community with access to specialist services close to home for people living with respiratory, cardiac and endocrine chronic disease. We have already achieved significant recruitment to these multidisciplinary teams, including consultants, clinical nurse specialists, advanced nurse practitioners, physiotherapists and dieticians.

With recruitment ongoing, full implementation of the programme will be achieved by the end of this year and, when fully embedded, we will have fully developed integrated care pathways between acute and community services, thereby improving access to, egress from and integration with acute hospital services, on one hand, and delivering more care closer to home, on the other.

Recruitment of the required consultants and health and social care professionals to the north Cork CDM hub is in progress, and the HSE aims to have the hub operational as soon as possible.

Rental Sector

Deputy Dessie Ellis

The tenant purchase scheme has been a very effective way for people to purchase their property from local authorities. There have been a number of changes to the scheme and the most recent in February 2022 included that a tenant has to have ten years' tenancy and meet the criteria to qualify on their own for a loan. The problem arises where a person has ten years or more tenancy and gets married. Their partner also has to have ten years to qualify for the scheme. Previously, if a couple got married this rule only applied for a short period. I think it was about a year. In the case I have in mind, a couple had applied in 2021 to purchase their homes but, unfortunately, did not submit enough documents and were not on time.

The new scheme has since kicked in, having started in February 2022. It seems that the primary tenant is being penalised because she got married or is living with a partner or otherwise. They will now have to wait, and in some cases, people will be left waiting for up to ten years or more to purchase their home. The primary tenant is getting older and may not qualify for a loan due to age. That may add up to ten years to her tenancy without the option to purchase, despite having the funds to do so. It seems unfair. This ten-year rule does not make sense. It appears only to penalise the main tenant.

This rule seems to be the effect of a ministerial order and its effect has been to penalise couples living together, causing long delays. Will the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage look at this issue? It is unfair and I call on the Minister to review the scheme and engage with the local authorities, or whoever else needs to be engaged with. I ask him to review the scheme because it does not seem right.

Another issue relates to tenants whose houses were adapted by the local authorities. Those tenants cannot purchase their homes even though they may have spent ten or 20 years living in the home with people with disabilities. It seems as if people with disabilities who qualify for and can get the necessary loans are being discriminated against. It appears that way. I know many local authorities looked at this scheme and had various reasons they did not want to sell off adapted tenancies. People with disabilities have rights under the United Nations Convention on Persons with Disabilities, UNCRPD. If people are living in a home they want to purchase in circumstances where a young person or the tenant in question has an illness, they should not be excluded. The situation should be reviewed by the Minister. He should consider whether a new scheme could be put in place. It seems there is discrimination. There is a blanket refusal across all the local authorities to sell off adapted houses. That does not seem right. There might be cases in which it could be argued that such houses should not be sold off but circumstances in which a person qualifies and has a genuine case should be considered.

Deputy Anne Rabbitte

I thank the Deputy for tabling this Topical Issue, which I am taking on behalf of the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage. The tenant (incremental) purchase scheme was introduced in January 2016 and is open to eligible tenants, including joint tenants, of local authority houses which are available for sale under the scheme. To be eligible, applicants must meet certain criteria, including minimum annual reckonable income and minimum time in receipt of social housing supports.

Both the programme for Government and Housing for All commit to maintaining the right of social housing tenants to purchase their home, subject to a number of reforms. As such, the scheme was reviewed in 2021 in line with these commitments. On foot of this review, the Government approved a number of amendments, which came into effect on 1 February 2022 by way of the Housing (Sale of Local Authority Houses) (Amendment) Regulations 2021. One of the amendments included changing the time a tenant, including a joint tenant, must be in receipt of social housing supports in order to qualify for the scheme. This was increased from one year to ten years and now both tenants must meet this requirement. This ten-year social housing support requirement includes time spent living in social dwellings provided by local authorities or approved housing bodies, as well as assistance provided through the housing assistance payment and the rental accommodation scheme. These changes were introduced to strike an appropriate balance between increasing the scope for those in receipt of long-term housing support to purchase their local authority home and ensuring the continued sustainability of the scheme by not unduly diminishing local authority housing stock.

Importantly, this amendment seeks to further support the development of socially sustainable communities, which is a fundamental principle of the tenant purchase scheme. The scheme is intended to facilitate social mobility and to strengthen social integration through the creation of mixed-tenure communities, which is a key tenet of the Government’s housing policy. Tenants who become the owners of their homes can inspire others to follow along the same path and this positive example strengthens communities. For the tenants themselves, the move to homeownership can be transformative and empowering, reducing dependency and increasing independence. Tenants availing of the scheme are now fully responsible for their own home and can make improvements and add value as they please.

Other amendments introduced include changing the minimum reckonable income required to qualify under the scheme, reducing it from €15,000 to €12,500 per annum, and also including the State contributory or non-contributory pension as reckonable income. This has enabled lower-income earners and those whose only income is the State pension to become eligible to purchase their home under the scheme.

Schemes such as these are regularly reviewed to ensure they are effective and sustainable, and offer the best value for tenants as well as for local authorities. To that end, further changes to the scheme are currently being considered as part of the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage’s work on the broader social housing reform agenda. This includes considering the impact of the ten-year social housing support requirement for both tenants, as well as revisiting what is considered to be reckonable income under the scheme.

Deputy Dessie Ellis

I thank the Minister of State for her reply. I am glad to hear that further changes are envisioned. In all honesty, when you think about it, a ten-year rule for someone who has been in a council house for ten, 15 or 20 years, who gets married and is then confined to hanging on for up to ten years, does not make sense. I hope that is reconsidered. We must get an appropriate balance, as the Minister of State mentioned. The situation as it stands is not balanced. It is unfair.

The scheme was introduced in 2022 and it has been fabulous for some people, including my wife and I, who purchased our own house. It has been a fabulous scheme and I have no problem with it in general, except for this issue, which has been brought to my attention. I also raised the issue in respect of people with disabilities. I know why the local authorities and councillors, in many cases, have been opposed to selling off stock. In general, I accept that. However, in the interests of fairness, just because someone has a disability and a house that has been adapted should not mean he or she is treated any differently from anyone else. That is my opinion. As part of the review, I would like the Minister to consider the situation. An allowance should be made where there is a genuine case to be looked at.

Deputy Anne Rabbitte

I thank the Deputy for raising this issue. The requirement for a tenant or joint tenants to have been in receipt of social housing support for ten years in order to be eligible to purchase their home under the scheme has a number of benefits. It strikes an appropriate balance between the right of social housing tenants to purchase their homes and the ability of the local authority to replenish its housing stock. It supports the development of socially sustainable communities. However, as I have outlined, the Department is currently considering the impact of the ten-year social housing support requirement for both tenants, along with other aspects of the scheme, and the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage will consider whether the actions are appropriate on foot of the review.

I take on board what the Deputy has said about the disability housing stock. I totally understand what he is saying. Disabled people should have equal access and equal rights to be able to purchase a home, no different from anybody else.

Deputy Dessie Ellis

That is required under the UNCRPD.

Deputy Anne Rabbitte

It absolutely is. I am off-script now and am not reading the Minister's reply, to be clear. Unfortunately, we do not have enough universal design+ or universal design++ coming through the local authorities to be able to support people in independent living. That must be a focus as we are building not only social and affordable housing. We need to be able to build a suite that encompasses all in society and allows them to access their own properties. I know the Deputy believes in that, as does the Minister, Deputy Darragh O'Brien. That is something I look forward to taking forward.

Rural Recreation Policy

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

The mountain access scheme was initially rolled out in the period 2008 to 2010, after a long examination of this issue by Comhairle na Tuaithe. The foundation of the scheme was based on permission being given by the landholder and mutual respect between the hillwalkers and the landholder. In the initial phase of the scheme, two pilot areas were selected, Binn Shléibhe or Mount Gable i nDúiche Sheoigheach, the Joyce Country, and Carrauntoohill in Kerry. The concept was that the farmers would give agreement to allow hillwalkers walk above the line of the enclosed fields, in other words, out on the open mountain.

This was to be subject to a number of conditions. The first condition was that all the walkers would enter and egress at agreed points. The second condition was that through the rural social scheme, RSS, and the Department responsible for rural and community development, car parks and stiles were to be provided at the entrance and egress points so there would be no open gates. People would have to go over a stile and that was essential. On the third one, and bearing in mind what happened recently in Wicklow with the disgraceful behaviour of dog owners, all walkers were to adhere to the "leave no trace" code. That was vital. If walkers were on the hill, they had to respect the hill and the owners. The next point was that there was to be a rural recreation officer available locally to deal with any issues caused by walkers. Farmers were to be indemnified against any claim against them for public liability. In other words, if a person slipped on the mountain and tried to sue the farmer, which would be very unlikely, the farmer would be indemnified against that. Finally, clear maps of the area that was open for walking were to be agreed, including providing these on smartphone apps. This was to ensure everyone was clear on where they could walk.

For many years, the scheme lay dormant. I understand there has been progress in more recent times, but of course things have changed, even in the two pilot areas, and this was meant to have been rolled out nationally. There is a need for continuous consultation and agreement on the scheme with the farmers. They have to be central to all of this because it is their land.

I have heard concerns, which I hope the Minister of State will be able to allay, that in at least one area, the farmers involved in the pilot project do not feel they are in the loop as to whether it is intended to proceed with this scheme, nor do they seem to be clear as to whether there is indemnity or what the conditions of that indemnity are. They have not seen any insurance policy. I also believe that for this to proceed we have to start from step one. We are talking about 15 years of a time lag at this stage. An rud a théann i bhfad, téann sé i bhfuaire. Tá sé sin thar a bheith fíor sa gcás seo. People who were gasúrs at the beginning of the scheme are now farmers. They feel that for any scheme to proceed, it has to be with their full, renewed consent. I hope the Minister of State will be able to clarify that we will get this once again based on the consent principle by the farmers and that the lack of openness that seems to be present at the moment would be dispelled. Without trust, this scheme does not work.

Deputy Anne Rabbitte

I thank Deputy Ó Cuív for raising this matter. I am taking this on behalf of the Minister of State for Rural and Community Development. Embracing Ireland's Outdoors - National Outdoor Recreation Strategy 2023-2027, which was launched last November, was developed in collaboration with Comhairle na Tuaithe and is a collaborative, cross-government, stakeholder-led strategy. It reflects the views of stakeholders, the public and the whole of government. It sets the stage to strengthen and support the sustainable development of the outdoor recreation sector in Ireland for years to come. Embracing Ireland's Outdoors has committed to enhancing access to outdoor recreation amenities, including the expansion of the mountain access project to other upland areas.

The Department of Rural and Community Development and Comhairle na Tuaithe are currently developing guidance for mountain access projects to aid other local groups in the management of key upland areas, using good practice models. A sustainable uplands recreation subgroup of Comhairle na Tuaithe was established to review the pilot, develop guidance and advise on the future expansion of it. It has met nine times. The membership of the group includes the farming representative groups of the Irish Farmers Association, IFA, and the Irish Natura and Hill Farmers Association, INHFA. The guidelines are being finalised later this year. Following this, it is proposed to commence the expansion of the mountain access project by the end of 2023. A further commitment under Embracing Ireland's Outdoors will see the piloting of the upland recreation scheme, similar in nature to the walks scheme, which will be rolled out through the mountain access project in 2024.

For some time, the Department has been examining how best to introduce a scheme to indemnify private land owners in upland areas who allow access to their lands for recreational purposes. This is a complex issue and the Department has been advised that an indemnity scheme such as has been proposed would require legislative provision and that a number of separate pieces of legislation might need to be amended. In light of the complexities involved, the Department of Rural and Community Development has been considering alternative pilot approaches, including an insurance solution to address the matter on a interim basis.

Through this process, a public liability insurance policy was secured by the Department for the two existing mountain access project areas, the MacGillycuddy Reeks in Kerry and Binn Shléibhe in Galway. This came into effect in 2021. This pilot solution was developed in consultation with Comhairle na Tuaithe and is being implemented on a trial basis. The policy represents a substantial step forward on this matter for landowners in the mountain access project areas involved.

In addition, the issue of indemnity is also being addressed through proposed changes to the Occupiers' Liability Act 1995 which are currently being progressed through the courts and the Civil Law (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2022. The Department is also engaging further with the Attorney General on the matter.

That is quite a comprehensive response.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

It tells us about the future. It keeps talking about the pilot scheme as if it existed. The Minister of State said there was talk about expanding it and all of these plans and so on, as if the pilot scheme existed. It says that insurance was put in place in 2021, as if the farmers knew about. Binn Shléibhe is the mountain at the back of my house and I happen to know the farmers who live around the mountain. The farmers do not seem to be aware whether they have given consent because some of the younger farmers were not there in 2008. In any case, it was too long a period of time to work on whatever was agreed in 2008. The world has moved on and changed dramatically.

The second thing is they do not seem to have any knowledge of this insurance policy the Minister of State referred to. The Minister of State said that through this process a public liability insurance policy was secured by the Department for the two existing mountain access project areas, the MacGillycuddy Reeks and Binn Shléibhe in Galway. I was approached by farmers in Binn Shléibhe and they do not seem to have any details on this insurance policy, and it is their land.

Will the Minister of State carry back a request from me that there would be an immediate, urgent consultation with all of the farmers in the two pilot area as to exactly what is going on, when consent was given, on what basis agreement was reached, whether they were made aware of this insurance policy, and if they have had sight of it? These are fundamental issues because there was one key ingredient to the success of this, which was farmers' support, consent and agreement. We are in danger of losing that through lack of interaction with the farmers. No other local group is any good. It has to be with the landowners. We know well enough in Ireland about the traditions of owning land, how precious land is to people and how they are very anxious to preserve their rights in their own land.

They are generous with it as long as one does that.

Deputy Anne Rabbitte

I thank the Leas-Cheann Comhairle. I understand Deputy Ó Cuív’s concern regarding the mountain access project and I will bring back his commentary on it to the Minister, Deputy Humphreys. Embracing Ireland’s Outdoors commits to expanding the mountain access project with a timeline to the end of 2023. The Department wants to ensure that there is appropriate guidance before it is expanded. This guidance has been developed by the subgroup of Comhairle na Tuaithe. The subgroup has the farming organisations represented on it and expansion will be done with the co-operation of the farming organisations. The important piece here is the landowners.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

As regards the farming organisations, most farmers are not in these organisations.

Deputy Anne Rabbitte

That is the piece which involves the farmers and the landowners. I will bring that back to the Minister, Deputy Humphreys. I understand officials from the Department of Rural and Community Development met with representatives of CDS Teo, Petersburg outdoor education and training centre and GeoPark last month regarding the mountain access project at Binn Shléibhe-Mount Gable. This meeting agreed that the Department would provide funding for an engagement officer to work with the local stakeholders and assist with any issues. In addition, the Department asked the IFA to assist at a local level.

Embracing Ireland’s Outdoors acknowledges the essential role landowners can play in facilitating permissive access to their lands while acknowledging that this goodwill and the legal rights of landowners must be respected by all recreational users. In the roll-out of the mountain access project and its expansion, this principle will continue to be respected and adhered to.