Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 27 Jun 2023

Vol. 1040 No. 6

An tOrd Gnó - Order of Business

Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach (Deputy Hildegarde Naughton)

I move:

Tuesday's business shall be:

- Motion re Proposed approval by Dáil Éireann of the Technological Universities Act 2018 (Section 44F) (Appointed Day) Order 2023 (without debate)

- Motion re Offences against the State (Amendment) Act 1998 and Motion re Criminal Justice (Amendment) Act 2009 (2 separate motions, to be debated together and conclude within 145 mins)

- Energy (Windfall Gains in the Energy Sector) (Temporary Solidarity Contribution) Bill 2023 (Second Stage) (if not previously concluded, to stand adjourned at either 7.30 p.m. or after 60 mins, whichever is the later)

Tuesday's private members' business shall be the Motion re Nursing Home Care, selected by Sinn Féin.Wednesday's business shall be:

- Motion re Restoration of Bills to the Order Paper (without debate)

- Historic and Archaeological Heritage Bill 2023 – Motion for a Financial Resolution (without debate)

- Statements pre-European Council meeting of 29th-30th June, pursuant to Standing Order 124 (not to exceed 110 mins)

- Statements on Environmental Protection Agency Water Quality Report 2022 (not to exceed 145 mins)

- Motion re Instruction to Committee on the Historic and Archaeological Heritage Bill 2023 (to conclude within 60 mins)

- Courts and Civil Law (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2022 (Amendments from the Seanad) (to be taken no earlier than 6 p.m. and to conclude within 60 mins)

Wednesday's private members' business shall be the Motion re Culling the National Herd, selected by the Rural Independent Group.

Thursday's business shall be the resumed Second Stage of the Energy (Windfall Gains in the Energy Sector) (Temporary Solidarity Contribution) Bill 2023 (if not previously concluded) (if not previously concluded, to conclude either at 6.25 p.m. or after 4 hours and 40 mins, whichever is the later).

Thursday evening business shall be Second Stage of the Defective Dwellings Bill 2021.

Proposed Arrangements for this week's business:

In relation to Tuesday's business, it is proposed that:

1. the ordinary routine of business as contained in Schedule 3 to Standing Orders shall be modified to the extent

(i) the Dáil shall sit later than 10.30 p.m.;

(ii) the time at which Government business shall be interrupted to take private members' business shall be in accordance with the arrangements for the Energy (Windfall Gains in the Energy Sector) (Temporary Solidarity Contribution) Bill 2023, with consequential effect on the commencement times for the items following private members' business in the ordinary routine of business, namely, oral Parliamentary Questions to the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform and topical issues;

2. the Motion re Proposed approval by Dáil Éireann of the Technological Universities Act 2018 (Section 44F) (Appointed Day) Order 2023 shall be taken without debate;

3. in relation to the Motion re Offences against the State (Amendment) Act 1998 and the Motion re Criminal Justice (Amendment) Act 2009, the following arrangements shall apply:

(i) the motions shall be debated together, with separate questions put on all proceedings thereon;

(ii) the proceedings shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion after 145 minutes, with arrangements in accordance with those agreed by Order of the Dáil of 30th July, 2020, for 135 minutes, following which a Minister or Minister of State shall be called upon to make a speech in reply which shall not exceed 10 minutes; and

(iii) members may share time; and

4. the proceedings on Second Stage of the Energy (Windfall Gains in the Energy Sector) (Temporary Solidarity Contribution) Bill 2023 shall, if not previously concluded, be interrupted and stand adjourned at either 7.30 p.m. or after 60 minutes, whichever is the later.In relation to Wednesday's business, it is proposed that:

1. the ordinary routine of business as set out in Schedule 3 to Standing Orders shall be modified to the following extent:

(i) the SOS pursuant to Standing Order 25(1) shall be taken immediately following the Statements pre-European Council meeting of 29th-30th June, pursuant to Standing Order 124, which shall be taken on the conclusion of Parliamentary Questions to the Taoiseach pursuant to Standing Order 46(1);

and

(ii) the weekly division time may be taken later than 8.45 p.m., and shall, in any event, be taken on the conclusion of proceedings on the Courts and Civil Law (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2022, with consequential effect on the time for the adjournment of the Dáil;

2. the Motion re Restoration of Bills to the Order Paper shall be taken without debate;

3. the Motion for a Financial Resolution on the Historic and Archaeological Heritage Bill 2023 shall be taken without debate;

4. the Statements pre-European Council meeting of 29th-30th June, pursuant to Standing Order 124, shall not exceed 110 minutes, with arrangements in accordance with those agreed by Order of the Dáil of 30th July, 2020, for 100 minutes, following which a Minister or Minister of State shall be called upon to make a statement in reply which shall not exceed 10 minutes, and members may share time;

5. the Statements on the Environmental Protection Agency Water Quality Report 2022 shall not exceed 145 minutes, with arrangements in accordance with those agreed by Order of the Dáil of 30th July, 2020, for 135 minutes, following which a Minister or Minister of State shall be called upon to make a statement in reply which shall not exceed 10 minutes, and members may share time;

6. the proceedings on the Motion re Instruction to Committee on the Historic and Archaeological Heritage Bill 2023 shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion after 60 minutes, and shall be confined to a single speaking round, with the contributions of a Minister and of a representative of Sinn Féin, the Labour Party, Social Democrats, People-Before-Profit Solidarity, the Regional Group, the Rural Independent Group, and the Independent Group (who shall be called in that order) not exceeding 7.5 minutes each, and members may share time; and

7. the proceedings on the amendments from the Seanad to the Courts and Civil Law (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2022 shall be taken no earlier than 6 p.m. and shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion after 60 minutes and any amendments from the Seanad not disposed of shall be decided by one question which shall be put from the Chair, and which shall, in relation to amendments to the Seanad amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for Justice.

In relation to Thursday's business, it is proposed that:

1. the ordinary routine of business as set out in Schedule 3 to Standing Orders shall be modified to the extent that topical issues shall be taken on the conclusion of Second Stage of the Energy (Windfall Gains in the Energy Sector) (Temporary Solidarity Contribution) Bill 2023, with consequential effect on the commencement time for Second Stage of the Defective Dwellings Bill 2021 and on the time for the adjournment of the Dáil; and

2. the proceedings on the resumed Second Stage of the Energy (Windfall Gains in the Energy Sector) (Temporary Solidarity Contribution) Bill 2023 shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at either 6.25 p.m. or after 4 hours and 40 minutes, whichever is the later, and any division demanded thereon shall be taken immediately prior to Committee Stage of the Bill.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Is it agreed? It is not agreed.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

The revelations about secret payments to Ryan Tubridy in RTÉ have been a kick in the teeth to public confidence in the State broadcaster and a kick in the teeth to the ordinary journalists and workers in RTÉ who have done nothing wrong and who, while these payments were being made, had to endure pay cuts, pay freezes, bogus self-employment, zero-hour contracts and many other sacrifices. They and the public deserve absolute, full transparency and all the facts to be put on the table with no drip-drip. The Minister needs to instruct RTÉ to publish all the relevant information immediately, with no dragging it out. I ask that if the Minister has briefed the Government on the terms of reference of the review, that she comes in here and briefs us and has a proper discussion this week on how we are going to get the truth out in the interest of the public and the workers in RTÉ.

Deputy Ivana Bacik

I too wish to raise the issue of the revelations about RTÉ. I know the Taoiseach has spoken earlier about the fact that RTÉ is due to issue a statement at 3 o'clock but it seems we are all in the dark until we see that statement as to the answers that we await concerning the issue of secret payments. Everyone will feel immense solidarity with the staff of RTÉ who are on ordinary employment contracts and who are trying to get on and do their jobs to the best of their abilities in keeping with the spirit of public service broadcasting. Yet it seems extraordinary that the Taoiseach has been left in the dark, as we all have been left in the dark, awaiting the statement. Did the Taoiseach meet with the outgoing and incoming directors general recently?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

This is the Order of Business.

Deputy Ivana Bacik

If so, if they did not tell him anything about this, does he feel that he has been left in the dark?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Bacik, it is the Order of Business. I call Deputy O'Callaghan.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

On the Order of Business there is a motion of instruction on the Historic and Archaeological Heritage Bill 2023 that the Government tabled. The Minister has tabled 24 pages of amendments on this Bill. They are entirely outside of the original scope of the Bill. There are amendments to five existing pieces of legislation that have nothing whatsoever to do with archaeology or heritage. There has been zero prelegislative scrutiny of these amendments. It seems to be an attempt to bypass the prelegislative scrutiny process. I object strongly to the motion of instruction for these amendments to be taken. These should not be shoehorned into a Bill on archaeology and heritage. They should be brought forward as separate legislation so they can be scrutinised properly.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I want a full debate on the RTÉ debacle. There are many thousands of decent workers in RTÉ. This scandal is going on. We saw how the board and the executive board suspended Dee Forbes. Then she was dismissed and she is blatantly refusing to come before any committee. I want, as happens to people who are unable or who do not wish to pay their licence because of the poor service of RTÉ, Ms Forbes to be arrested and charged and to get the Garda to question her if she will not come before this House.

The people are aghast at what is going on at the top levels in some organisations. Of course, it is-----

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy, it is the Order of Business.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Yes, it is. I want a full debate about the debacle at RTÉ and the failure of the Government and Ms Forbes riding into the sunset. I want a Garda investigation to ensure Ms Forbes and other senior people in RTÉ are held to account.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Order, please. I have allowed a certain leniency on this because I realise the importance of the issue. We have to be careful about making allegations.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I am not making any.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I understand that the former director general resigned.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

She was dismissed.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Let us be careful in our use of language. Deputy Doherty wishes to come in on the Order of Business.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

It is not surprising this is the issue everybody is raising today, because it is the issue the public is talking about. People are shocked by this. I ask this question in the context of the terms of reference and the sequencing of work in this House, particularly the committees that will meet. Is the Government aware of any information about the 2017 to 2019 payments? I ask the Taoiseach that question because I know his Cabinet colleague met with the chair. Was that question asked?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

It is the Order of Business.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

Was any response given? It is really important for the conduct of the work of this House that all the information available to be put into the public domain is put into the public domain. I take it that the terms of reference of the inquiry being looked at-----

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy, we are straying. This is the Order of Business.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

-----talk about the Grant Thornton review that has not even started.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Taoiseach is to respond.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

It may be a number of months before we have a report from Grant Thornton.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

That is why we need to hear from the Minister.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

It is really important. Maybe there is no information.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

It is the Order of Business. Thank you.

The Taoiseach

I thank the Deputy. I do not have any further information on the 2017 to 2019 payments, other than the amounts and the person who received them. I have no other information. The Minister for Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media, Deputy Martin, will be happy to address the Dáil next week on this matter. We think it makes sense that we see the RTÉ statement this afternoon, and the committee hearings be allowed do their work on Wednesday and Thursday. We will come back when we have the terms of reference for a proper debate and discussion of it in the Dáil next week. That is what we propose to do. It would be a bit strange for the RTÉ executives and board to be questioned in a committee room by some Deputies, and have the Minister here at the same time. We think it makes sense to do it over the two weeks, and that is what I propose to the House.

I will ask the Whip to answer the question on the Historic and Archaeological Heritage Bill 2023.

Deputy Hildegarde Naughton

A briefing on the Historic and Archaeological Heritage Bill 2023 is being organised for members of the joint Oireachtas committee. A number of amendments, including an amendment on local government rates, are time sensitive. They need to be in place before budget 2024. There are issues around maternity leave in local government, which clarify the legal position for councillors' Seanad votes if they take maternity leave. That is in line with advice from the Attorney General. It is a technical amendment, but it needs to be made to avoid any legal uncertainty in advance of an election. There is an amendment on Lough Corrib, which is a technical amendment. There is a transitional amendment for the establishment of the Maritime Area Regulatory Authority, MARA. It is a technical amendment that needs to be passed. This will go to committee to be debated.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Are the arrangements for the week's business agreed to?

Deputy Mattie McGrath

They are not agreed.

Question put: "That the proposed arrangements for this week's business be agreed to."

The Dáil divided: Tá, 64; Níl, 53; Staon, 0.

Tá

• Brophy, Colm.
• Browne, James.
• Bruton, Richard.
• Burke, Colm.
• Butler, Mary.
• Byrne, Thomas.
• Cahill, Jackie.
• Calleary, Dara.
• Cannon, Ciarán.
• Carroll MacNeill, Jennifer.
• Chambers, Jack.
• Collins, Niall.
• Costello, Patrick.
• Coveney, Simon.
• Cowen, Barry.
• Creed, Michael.
• Crowe, Cathal.
• Donnelly, Stephen.
• Donohoe, Paschal.
• Duffy, Francis Noel.
• Durkan, Bernard J.
• English, Damien.
• Farrell, Alan.
• Feighan, Frankie.
• Flaherty, Joe.
• Fleming, Sean.
• Foley, Norma.
• Griffin, Brendan.
• Haughey, Seán.
• Heydon, Martin.
• Humphreys, Heather.
• Kehoe, Paul.
• Lahart, John.
• Leddin, Brian.
• Lowry, Michael.
• Madigan, Josepha.
• Martin, Catherine.
• Matthews, Steven.
• McAuliffe, Paul.
• McEntee, Helen.
• McGrath, Michael.
• Moynihan, Aindrias.
• Naughton, Hildegarde.
• Noonan, Malcolm.
• O'Brien, Darragh.
• O'Brien, Joe.
• O'Callaghan, Jim.
• O'Connor, James.
• O'Dea, Willie.
• O'Donnell, Kieran.
• O'Donovan, Patrick.
• O'Dowd, Fergus.
• O'Gorman, Roderic.
• O'Sullivan, Christopher.
• O'Sullivan, Pádraig.
• Ó Cathasaigh, Marc.
• Ó Cuív, Éamon.
• Phelan, John Paul.
• Rabbitte, Anne.
• Smyth, Niamh.
• Smyth, Ossian.
• Stanton, David.
• Troy, Robert.
• Varadkar, Leo.

Níl

• Andrews, Chris.
• Bacik, Ivana.
• Barry, Mick.
• Boyd Barrett, Richard.
• Brady, John.
• Browne, Martin.
• Buckley, Pat.
• Cairns, Holly.
• Clarke, Sorca.
• Collins, Michael.
• Conway-Walsh, Rose.
• Cullinane, David.
• Daly, Pa.
• Doherty, Pearse.
• Donnelly, Paul.
• Ellis, Dessie.
• Farrell, Mairéad.
• Funchion, Kathleen.
• Gannon, Gary.
• Gould, Thomas.
• Guirke, Johnny.
• Healy-Rae, Danny.
• Healy-Rae, Michael.
• Howlin, Brendan.
• Kenny, Martin.
• Kerrane, Claire.
• Mac Lochlainn, Pádraig.
• McGrath, Mattie.
• Mitchell, Denise.
• Munster, Imelda.
• Murphy, Catherine.
• Murphy, Paul.
• Nash, Ged.
• Nolan, Carol.
• O'Callaghan, Cian.
• O'Reilly, Louise.
• O'Rourke, Darren.
• Ó Broin, Eoin.
• Ó Laoghaire, Donnchadh.
• Ó Murchú, Ruairí.
• Ó Snodaigh, Aengus.
• Pringle, Thomas.
• Quinlivan, Maurice.
• Ryan, Patricia.
• Sherlock, Sean.
• Shortall, Róisín.
• Smith, Bríd.
• Smith, Duncan.
• Stanley, Brian.
• Tóibín, Peadar.
• Tully, Pauline.
• Ward, Mark.
• Whitmore, Jennifer.

Staon

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Hildegarde Naughton and Paul McAuliffe; Níl, Deputies Mattie McGrath and Michael Healy-Rae.

Question declared carried.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I congratulate Deputy Phelan on the arrival of Garrett, who is nine weeks old. I have checked that he has not voted.

Tá mé ag bogadh ar aghaidh to dtí ceisteanna ar pholasaí agus reachtaíocht atá geallta. I know everybody wants to contribute but we will be out of time. I ask for Members' co-operation. It is up to one minute each and if we follow that, we will get through it. Otherwise, we will not and I will stop it at the right time. We have 23 minutes.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

Households continue to struggle under one of the most pressing cost-of-living crises in a generation. In this rip-off republic, Irish living standards have fallen further behind other European countries, with people ripped off by extortionate energy bills, high housing costs and food prices. Our economy is not working for ordinary people. We have a hotel in Dublin city that is charging €1,000 for a room on the night of the Taylor Swift concert. We have the second-highest energy prices in the European Union, and while energy prices have dropped significantly across Europe, our energy bills remain sky-high, despite a massive drop in wholesale prices. Therefore, it is no surprise that the European Commission confirmed last week that this State is the most expensive place to live in the European Union. We know from the Central Bank and even the IMF that profits were the biggest driver of rising prices last year. What is the Government going to do to tackle rip-off prices that have contributed to the biggest cost-of-living crisis in a generation?

The Taoiseach

There are a large number of things that we have been doing to help people with the cost of living. The Deputy will know, for example, about the energy credits, the reductions that we have done on VAT and excise, and the additional welfare payments we have made. Of course, through the Competition and Consumer Protection Commission, CCPC, we are making sure there is proper competition in the sectors. We are also introducing a windfall tax on the excess profits of energy generators and the fossil fuel industry.

Deputy Ivana Bacik

Five years on from the historic referendum to repeal the eighth amendment, many women accessing abortion services continue to suffer abhorrent abuse outside GP clinics and hospitals, including women who are enduring abuse from protesters outside the National Maternity Hospital just down the road from here, so I welcome the Government announcement today of the legislation on safe access zones. This law is long overdue and, indeed, a Private Members’ Bill on this was first mooted back in 2021. I hope we will see swift movement on this Bill. I ask for a timeline for its passage into law and, further, ask for a timeline for implementation of the other reforms to abortion law as laid out and recommended in Marie O'Shea's independent review. I note that review has been referred to the Committee on Health but will the Taoiseach say when we are likely to see legislation to address the unnecessary structural obstacles that still face so many women? We note that 860 women have had to travel to England for abortion services since 2018.

The Taoiseach

The legislation on the safe access zones was approved by the Cabinet today, so it should be published in the next couple of days. I cannot tell the Deputy what the timeline is as that will depend on the business of the House and also the business of the Seanad. I think there will be opposition to it so it is difficult to say how long it will take to get through the Seanad and the Dáil. I would certainly expect to have that legislation enacted by the end of the year.

In regard to the O'Shea report, the Government has not made any decisions on that yet. I appreciate Deputy Bríd Smith's Private Members’ Bill is in committee but the Government has not made any decisions on our own legislation in that regard. While I acknowledge there are hundreds of women who still travel to the UK for terminations, they do so for all sorts of different reasons. The decision we made when people voted “Yes” in the referendum was that there would be abortion on request up to 12 weeks.

I know some people want to change that. That is a matter of opinion. There are also issues around disability, which is not grounds here but may be in other states.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

I ask the Taoiseach to consider what it would be like in this situation. Imagine you are homeless and sleeping on floors of family and friends. You are suffering from depression and have a child with additional needs who has been waiting years to get an assessment. Every day is a challenge. You turn up at the post office to collect your social welfare payment on which you rely to feed your family but you are told to go to the Intreo office and are turned away. You go to the Intreo office and are told that you have been sanctioned for failing to turn up for an appointment, one which you never knew about because you have not been receiving letters since you became homeless. This is an appalling way to treat vulnerable people who are at their wits' end and need support. The Taoiseach said earlier that no one should be judged until all the facts are established. Is this not judging people before any facts have been established? Does the Taoiseach agree that this cruel and inhumane treatment of vulnerable people needs to end?

The Taoiseach

I do not know the facts of that case so it is impossible for me to comment on them in full. The Deputy might make the Minister for Social Protection, Deputy Humphreys, aware and she might be able to assist the person concerned. It is the case that jobseeker's payments are conditional on people genuinely seeking work, education and training, but I can absolutely understand how somebody might not get a letter or might not have got correspondence. I am sure there are practical arrangements in place where that occurs. Perhaps if the Deputy shares the details with the Minister, she can see what she can do.

Deputy Paul Murphy

Earlier today People Before Profit Deputies visited workers at the Iceland store on Talbot Street. These workers started occupying the store yesterday. They have been there through the night and staying away from their families. Why? Because, bluntly, they have been robbed by their employer. The workers are owed a collective tens of thousands of euro in unpaid wages and holiday pay. They are right to take a stand, to occupy and to demand that they are paid what they are owed. This situation has all the hallmarks of a tactical insolvency with echoes of the Debenhams situation. The company has gone into examinership on the basis of €36 million in debt, of which €34 million is owed to the parent company. It seems like an attempt to avoid paying workers what they are owed. Does the Taoiseach agree that the workers should be paid what they are owed?

The Taoiseach

I absolutely agree that workers should be paid what they are owed. There are mechanisms to do that both through the Social Insurance Fund and through the Workplace Relations Commission.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

They have no teeth.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

The Government is closing down early years childhood education facilities throughout the country. In 2019, there were 77 net closures; in 2020, there were 70; in 2021, there were 62; last year, on my last count, there were 80 net closures; and this year they are closing by the week. Currently, early years providers are suffering greatly. They have come to the gates of the Dáil to protest again about what is happening. Yes, the Minister has put €212 million into the sector, but where is it going? Some of these providers are getting less per child now than they did 20 years ago. Money is going to the large chains while the small and medium-sized providers are not getting it. Those providers are going into debt, those workers are being laid off and those children and their parents do not have anywhere in their home towns to send their children to. The Minister shakes his head when asked this question in the House, but these businesses are not closing for the craic. They are not doing it for the good of their health.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We are over time. We are under pressure with time.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

The option for parents to send their kids to these places is being lost.

Minister for Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth (Deputy Roderic O'Gorman)

Significantly fewer childcare services have closed at this time this year than in any of the previous years Deputy Tóibín has cited. That is because of the huge investment the State has put in. It was €259 million in the first year of core funding. Now, as we move to the second year of core funding, there is an additional €28 million. This 11% increase in core funding in year 2 is designed to recognise administrative costs and non-staff overheads and particularly recognising the additional challenges that small sessional services face there is an additional €7 million specifically for them. We have listened to the sector, heard its concerns and we have designed something specifically for those smaller sessional services as part of how that €28 million has been allocated. To obtain that funding, to be part of core funding, what we ask is the fee freeze which allows parents to benefit from the increase in the national childcare scheme.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

There is a gap between what the Minister says and the experience of the providers.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I am moving on. I call Deputy Mattie McGrath.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

The Federation of Early Childhood Providers launched this morning a report on voices from the front-line service providers. It identifies key challenges and opportunities for Ireland's early learning and care, ELC, and school-age childcare, SAC, sectors. Will the Minister for Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth please engage with and listen to them? They are under enormous pressure. I was involved in setting up a naíonra in Caisleán Nua and I salute the management and staff there and all the groups around the country. The Minister seems to have gone for all the big industries here and the major chains, and the small groups are threatened and squeezed and unable because of his policies. They are not able and they are losing control of their own units. Without those services, families will not be able to work, and we know there is pressure on workers and families, so they will not be able to go to work. I also understand from some of them today outside the gates - and they were in great spirits, albeit very sad and downbeat - that the Minister threatened to cut their funding if they came and protested. We live in a democracy. Will the Minister please support these people and not demonise them?

Deputy Roderic O'Gorman

That is entirely untrue, just to put that on the record. What is important to say is that I have engaged very extensively with all the organisations in the early years sector. I meet them regularly in the forum. I have, on many occasions this year and last year, met the particular group protesting outside the Dáil today. I see the Deputy has been briefed with the report. I have not had the opportunity to read it. I will of course look through it. Essentially, though, as I said in response to Deputy Tóibín, we put an additional €259 million into the sector last year. That will grow this year to €287 million, and we have allocated a section of that towards those small sessional services. What is being proposed, bringing the ECCE capitation up to €120, will benefit the big providers. They will be the ones who will benefit most from that, not the small services. So the solutions being put forward are solutions that will benefit only the big services.

Deputy Thomas Pringle

Recent correspondence I had with members of the Donegal branch of Diabetes Ireland has thrown up the massive problems Letterkenny University Hospital and the Saolta group are having in the recruitment and retention of consultant endocrinologists in the hospital. The former Minister for Health, Deputy Harris, announced a second post in 2017. To date that has never been filled. The current resident will finish up in the coming weeks. From what I can gather, Saolta and the HSE have no plan yet for endocrinology cover and proper governance from July onwards. I have been consistently raising the ongoing issues in diabetes care in the north west but nothing has improved. Why is Saolta having such difficulties recruiting people to specialist roles in diabetes care across the north west, but particularly in Letterkenny University Hospital? Will the Taoiseach ask the Minister, Saolta and Letterkenny University Hospital to meet with Deputies and stakeholders from the region as a matter of urgency to try to address this issue?

The Taoiseach

I will certainly make the Minister, Deputy Donnelly, aware that Deputy Pringle raised it here in the Dáil today. Recruitment and retention of consultants is a challenge throughout the country but more so in some parts of the country than others. Under the new consultant contract, we offer a salary of €250,000 a year if people dedicate themselves to public practice. They can still do private practice in their own time, so it is extremely good money, but it is not just about money, and when there are many more posts available around the world than there are people qualified for them, it can be difficult to fill posts.

Deputy Willie O'Dea

On 21 February, HIQA made an unannounced visit to University Hospital Limerick. The press release about the report arising from that visit stated:

The emergency department remained very overcrowded with 72 patients on trolleys and chairs ... This level of overcrowding continued to impact on the privacy and dignity of patients...

Obviously, that is unacceptable. The Taoiseach may or may not be aware that St. John's Hospital in Limerick, which is a hospital in the city centre with an outstanding reputation, has for some time made an application for funding to build an extra bed block. That would considerably alleviate the situation at UHL. It would also improve the beds-to-population ratio in the mid-west, which is the worst in the country by some distance. Has a decision been taken yet on the St. John's application? If not, when can we expect one?

The Taoiseach

My understanding is that, at UHL itself, the new 96-bed block is under construction and another one has been approved. I do not know what the situation is regarding an additional bed block for St. John's but I will certainly make inquiries with the Minister, Deputy Donnelly, and ask that he come back to Deputy O'Dea directly. I can certainly see the advantages of additional beds in St. John's. Not having an emergency department has advantages, and certainly more surgical cases could be done and more medical patients could be looked after without what happens so often in a big busy hospital, with the emergency department essentially taking over.

Deputy Brian Leddin

First, I support Deputy O'Dea's call for the decision to be made on St. John's. As regards my own question, the Taoiseach might consider discussing with the Minister, Deputy Martin, and other colleagues, with respect to the review of public service broadcasting and the terms of reference, that the impact of advertising on climate action be looked at because it seems to me that advertising works. That is why these large companies spend so much money on it, and it does influence people's decisions. Often it influences them to make our lives harder as legislators because they might make decisions that are not good for the climate, even though they might wish to do so. I ask for the Taoiseach's support that, in the context of the review of funding for public service broadcasting, that be looked at.

The Taoiseach

That is an interesting idea. Advertising does work. Otherwise, companies would not spend so much money on advertising, nor would we as politicians. However, I am not sure how I would feel about restricting advertising of holidays abroad, certain foods and so on. I am not sure we would want to get into that space-----

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

The Taoiseach should watch "Mad Men".

The Taoiseach

-----but it is certainly something worthy of debate.

Deputy Paschal Donohoe

I have watched it all. I am sure Deputy Boyd Barrett has too.

Deputy Claire Kerrane

I spoke yesterday to a paramedic who told me that morale in the ambulance service is in the gutter due to the long-running and ongoing recruitment and retention crisis. We have seen the recent capacity review by the HSE to show that we need to double the workforce in the next three years. We know industrial action has now been voted for. We know that the director of the National Ambulance Service has written to management across the State to say he is drafting a cost containment plan which will include a pause on recruitment to some posts. Paramedics are under huge pressure. There is a particular issue in the west and in the midlands. I know that a recent presentation on call volumes put north Roscommon, Boyle and Carrick at the top of the list, yet it seems an additional resource is going in elsewhere in the west. I am sure the Taoiseach will agree that where it is proven resources are needed, that is exactly where resources should go. I appreciate that is a specific issue, but on the wider issue of recruitment and retention, we seem to have a crisis in the retained fire service, the ambulance service and the Garda. I ask that the Taoiseach look at that crisis of recruitment and retention across our emergency responders. It very much needs to be looked at.

The Taoiseach

We are looking at it and taking it very seriously all the time. We have full employment now in Ireland - probably beyond full employment at this stage. There are more vacancies available than there are people with the skills to fill them. We see that in the public sector and the private sector. We see it in all parts of the country. We see it in jobs that are well paid and jobs that are poorly paid. It does challenge us to do a number of things: train more people, allow people with skills to come here with work permits or work visas and change the way we do things. If we are going to do more, we will have to be able to do it with fewer people, and that means embracing new technologies in particular.

Deputy Francis Noel Duffy

I speak on behalf of a group of national school principals who work in some of the most disadvantaged areas in Dublin. They are grateful for the DEIS programme. However, they believe a DEIS plus band is required to assist children in these areas who experience trauma and adverse childhood experiences. The north inner city multidisciplinary teams model is equivalent to a DEIS plus. Can this model be expanded to include children who face similar disadvantages? A working group might be the route to action such a programme.

The Taoiseach

The DEIS programme has been hugely successful, and a number of schools in my constituency benefit from the additional resources that come with it, and they need it, given the disadvantage in the area. I am not an expert on it at all. I know there is a special arrangement in the north-east inner city. There is also DEIS band 1 and DEIS band 2. I will certainly let the Minister, Deputy Foley, know that the matter was raised and ask her to reply directly to the Deputy.

Deputy Carol Nolan

As the Taoiseach will be aware, while the Minister for Transport is not involved in the day-to-day operations of public transport and public transport companies such as Bus Éireann, Iarnród Éireann and Dublin Bus, he has statutory responsibility for public transport policy. In this context, will the Taoiseach instruct the Minister to revise the unfair policy of mandatory retirement for drivers who reach the age of 70 years despite being in possession of full public service vehicle, PSV, licences and driver licences and who are certificated as medically fit to drive? This revision should also apply to drivers who have been working as contractors with Bus Éireann and who are currently required to retire at 70 years of age as well. This is a discriminatory, unfair and counterproductive policy that needs to be changed because it goes against the Government policy of urging people to stay on in the workforce if they so wish.

The Taoiseach

I do not think I can instruct the Minister for Transport, either legally or politically, but I know this issue has come up a number of times. My general view when it comes to these matters is that, if someone is fit and healthy enough to work for longer, he or she should be allowed to do so, but I think there may be insurance issues when it comes to bus drivers. I will certainly let the Minister know the issue was raised again.

Deputy Thomas Gould

There has been a great deal of talk in this Chamber about women in sport and equality. Next Saturday, the Cork senior ladies football team and the Cork senior camogie team will play in Cork at 2 p.m. and in Clare at 3 p.m., respectively. Both are must-win games, but there are four dual players who will have to make the terrible decision of which team to line out with. These ladies have trained all year long and they and their team mates have made sacrifices, yet they are being forced to make this decision. I have written to both associations asking them to act, as have the players. It is time that the Minister stepped in. Women in sport should be treated with respect and equality. For the third time this year, having two games scheduled for the same day is not giving them the respect they deserve.

The Taoiseach

It must be a very difficult decision to have to make if you are a dual player. Which set of team mates do you disappoint and which set of supporters do you disappoint when games clash like that? Needless to say, as a Government, we are not involved in scheduling any of these matches, but it is a reasonable issue to raise. I will certainly let the Minister of State, Deputy Byrne, know it was brought up in the Dáil and he might revert to the Deputy directly.

Deputy Thomas Gould

I thank the Taoiseach.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

I commend the peace and anti-war protestors who have challenged the shocking bias of the Government’s so-called forum on security matters, which is heavily stacked with people who are pro NATO and pro EU militarisation and has almost no voices of those who are concerned about and warning against the Government’s de facto pulling of Ireland closer to NATO, an alliance dominated by powers that have a bloody history of wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya and many other places. Is it not a bit Orwellian for the Taoiseach to say we are not getting involved with NATO and our neutrality is safe when we recently had NATO commanders in Cork assessing our troops and we are involving ourselves with NATO through the permanent structured co-operation, PESCO, and battle groups? Does it not make the Taoiseach’s commitments about protecting neutrality completely hollow?

The Taoiseach

Not really. It is very clear. We are participating in PESCO. We are founder members of PESCO. We had a referendum on the Lisbon treaty. People voted for it. I was proud to lead us into PESCO during my first term as Taoiseach. PESCO is the European structured co-operation on defence and security. We are not going to join NATO, but NATO is made up of many countries that are allies, for example, EU states, the UK, the US and Canada. We co-operate with them through the Partnership for Peace and have done for more than 20 years.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

The UK's record is not brilliant, is it?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We are out of time, so with the Taoiseach’s co-operation, I will take the final three Deputies together.

Deputy David Stanton

Professor Gregory O’Hare from Trinity College recently told the Joint Committee on Enterprise, Trade and Employment that ChatGPT was the fastest growing technology in history, it was disruptive, it would replace a quarter of our work-related tasks and its speed was fast exceeding the rate at which law could be framed, including the EU's AI Act. Other countries have forums, task forces and strategies. Has the Government plans to establish anything like that in Ireland, perhaps even an Oireachtas committee?

Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan

I wish to raise the issue of home tutors. I acted as a home tutor many years ago to a child with a cancer diagnosis. I believe there are approximately 1,400 home tutors working in the system nationally, many of them part-time, supplementing their hours and affiliated with schools. There are some who are working full-time. They are qualified teachers who are registered with the Teaching Council, but many of them have received letters from Revenue in recent weeks saying that they need to de-register as self-employed. This poses them difficult questions. Who will become their employer? Will they get the same conditions, pension entitlements and so on as mainstream teachers? There are turbulent waters ahead for them. They have the same experience and qualifications as other teachers and each tutor’s payslip has on it a school roll number and the previous school to which he or she was affiliated. Who becomes their employer if they are not self-employed?

Deputy Fergus O'Dowd

The Government's promise in the programme for Government of an end-of-life hospice unit in Drogheda was welcomed, as were the allocation of €1 million and the identification of a site at Our Lady of Lourdes Hospital. The people of Drogheda have been waiting for developments since then and I have been waiting ten weeks for a reply from the Minister for Health setting out the progress to date. Will the Taoiseach ask the Minister to send me that reply urgently, given that we need significant progress on the site?

The Taoiseach

I will ask the Minister of State, Deputy Smyth, to reply to Deputy Stanton’s question on AI.

Regarding Deputy O’Sullivan’s question on home tutors, I was not aware of that issue. I will certainly speak to the Minister, Deputy McGrath, about it. It sounds like a Revenue decision. I will make inquiries and get back to the Deputy as soon as I can.

To Deputy O’Dowd’s question, the discussions on the end-of-life hospice unit in Our Lady of Lourdes Hospital go back to my time as Minister for Health, so I am frustrated that it is not up and running already, quite frankly. I will ensure the Deputy gets a reply from the Minister, Deputy Donnelly, in the next couple of days.

Minister of State at the Department of Environment, Climate and Communications (Deputy Ossian Smyth)

Deputy Stanton asked about AI and advice on same. The National Cyber Security Centre has circulated advice to Departments and other public sector bodies on the use of AI. That advice is classified and has not been published but, in general, it advises not uploading confidential documents and not using the output of generative AI directly, for example, to reply to letters from the public or generate strategies or documents. There is a significant upside to generative AI – it is not just a risk – and both sides are being watched. The Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment is responsible for ensuring we profit from AI. The cybersecurity division under me is responsible for ensuring we mitigate its risks.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

No need to worry, so.