Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 4 Oct 2023

Vol. 1043 No. 3

Saincheisteanna Tráthúla - Topical Issue Debate

Health Services Staff

Deputy Alan Dillon

I thank the Leas-Cheann Comhairle and Ceann Comhairle for selecting this very important Topical Issue, which addresses a matter of profound importance, one that demands immediate and resolute action. It concerns the livelihoods and well-being of the incredible individuals who dedicate their lives to caring for and supporting the most vulnerable in our society. I implore the Minister of State, Deputy Heydon, who is taking this Topical Issue on behalf of the Minister with responsibility, to listen carefully to their pleas and pave the way for a brighter future for our section 39 workers, including those in Western Care and the Irish wheelchair services, as well as countless others in my constituency and across the country.

Let me paint a stark picture. Many of these selfless workers, who provide an incredible lifeline to those in need, have not seen an increase in pay since 2008. That is more than a decade of stagnation in their wages. It is an injustice and cries out for rectification. These dedicated individuals are the backbone of our social care system, serving tirelessly in disability, homelessness and mental health services and a magnitude of other community-based programmes.

There exists an unacceptable disparity between their pay rates when compared to their counterparts in the HSE and other State agencies. Basic allowances and essential leave provisions should be standard and are missing from their employment conditions. As a result, their morale is at an all-time low and the sector is suffering from a severe recruitment and retention crisis. We cannot blame these workers for seeking better pay, improved terms and fairer conditions elsewhere. They, too, have families to provide for and dreams to fulfil, yet as they leave, we are witnessing the erosion of vital services that we, as a society, cannot do without.

This morning, I ask that the Minister of State ensures that the Government sets an example in relation to section 39 workers. We cannot afford to lose them and we cannot stand idly by while they suffer. It is time for action. I ask that he discusses this with the Minister who has responsibility in this area before the upcoming budget.

Deputy Martin Browne

I echo what Deputy Dillon has said. I thank the Minister of State for taking this issue this morning. It is a pity that the Minister for Health, Deputy Donnelly, himself is not present to listen to us.

Section 39 workers in our healthcare service are at the coalface morning, noon and night. I spoke to some of the service users in the Irish Wheelchair Association, IWA, in Tipperary town the other day. I listened to the service users, who said that from the time they wake up in the morning to the time they go to bed at night, they are dependent on section 39 workers to get them out of bed, wash them and take them shopping. They are the most vulnerable and marginalised in our society. If this strike goes ahead, it will put untold pressure on them. I spoke to workers who do not under any circumstances want to face going on strike. However, as Deputy Dillon said, it is 2008 since they got a pay rise. After 2008, when the push came, they took two cuts. All they are looking for is pay parity. We are all talking about the cost of living, etc. However, if there is a difference of €4.20 per hour between the section 39 workers and the HSE workers, it is a no-brainer that once they are trained to a certain level, the HSE will poach them. Then, all the services, such as the IWA, the resource centres and all the places where section 39 workers work are being drained of staff. It is completely wrong.

I hope the Minister of State will bring this issue back to the Minister. It must not be a case of giving them a piecemeal percentage of a rise to try to solve this. The least that these workers are entitled to is pay parity. They are doing the same type of work as those in the public sector working for the HSE and so on. Again, I am ash the Minister of State to bring this issue back strongly to the Minister.

Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine (Deputy Martin Heydon)

I would like to thank both Deputies for raising this important issue. It affects all of us in each of our constituencies around the country. We all know of the really vital work that is carried out by the people we are discussing here this morning.

The sustainability and stability of health and social care sectors are a concern for Government and we recognise the ability of voluntary organisations to pay their staff is highly dependent on State funding. We are, therefore, committed to resolving this issue. I am particularly aware that staff recruitment and retention challenges are affecting the sustainability and stability of section 39 and section 56 organisations and their ability to deliver services on behalf of the State.

These challenges are mirrored in many of the health and social care professions throughout the country. In July, the Departments of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth, and Health made a combined offer of a 5% pay funding increase to employer bodies. This offer was in line with those that have been accepted by community and voluntary staff in other sectors. The offer to workers in this sector amounted to a 5% increase in funding for pay effective from November 2023, with 3% backdated to April 2023. This offer remains on the table and includes a commitment to re-engage with trade union representatives following any further public sector pay agreement. This combined offer was not accepted by trade union representatives and early last week unions representing some section 39 and section 56 workers announced that their members in a selection of employer organisations would take indefinite strike action from Tuesday, 17 October.

I understand that actions will involve health and community workers in a variety of grades and in multiple locations across 19 voluntary service provider organisations. Any industrial action will impact negatively on the people who use their services, and I encourage the unions and employers to return to the negotiation process, to avoid industrial action and the negative impacts this will have on service users. In the meantime, the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth is working with the relevant agencies, Tusla and the HSE, that are engaged in contingency planning with the employer organisations that will be affected by industrial action, so that any impact on those who depend on these essential services can be managed to the greatest extent possible.

While the Government has engaged in a process through the Workplace Relations Commission, WRC, it is worth noting that section 39 and section 56 organisations are privately owned and operated, and the terms and conditions of employment for staff in those organisations are ultimately between the employer and their employees. I do, however, recognise the point that has been made by the Deputies that a solution to the current situation will involve much-needed additional investment into these sectors. Acknowledging the critical nature of the current situation, the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth is engaged in ongoing dialogue with the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Delivery and Reform, the HSE and Tusla in respect of budget 2024. These discussions are still progressing and until they are concluded, it would not be appropriate to comment further on the level of available funding to address this or any other area that could benefit from increased funding next year.

Deputy Alan Dillon

I thank the Minister of State for his response, which is greatly appreciated. However, this sector is in dire straits and demands immediate action. Up to 5,000 health and community workers who play a critical role in our society are on the brink of indefinite strike action from 17 October. While I accept that the 5% pay funding increase was put on the table, it certainly did not go far enough for many organisations. These dedicated section 39 workers employed in voluntary, not-for-profit health organisations have undergone rigorous training and education, as have their counterparts in section 38 organisations, such as the HSE workers. They work under the same conditions, face the same challenges and have the same responsibilities. Why are they treated differently? They are not asking for special treatment. All they are asking for is equal treatment. It is a simple and just request. No longer can they be ignored. I ask that the 5% that is on the table would be increased and that we would see a fairer offer being made to these section 39 workers.

Deputy Martin Browne

As Deputy Dillon pointed out, the offer of a 5% increase cannot be accepted. It is as simple as that. All these workers were treated the same when the pay cuts came. All they are asking for is the same treatment when pay is being replaced. The figure of 5% is the exact reason there is a problem with recruitment and retention in the service. There is a difference of €4.20 per hour between section 39 workers and HSE workers. It is clear and simple that the longer pay restoration is avoided, the longer workers in section 39 organisations will be out. We cannot paint enough the pressure that services are going to be under. The Government will say the HSE will take on all this work while the strike is on, but nobody in this House believes that the HSE is capable of doing that work at the minute because it is under so much pressure. It will, therefore, be outsourced again to private companies. We are pleading with the Government to get around the table, bring the unions back in, treat the section 39 workers the exact same and ensure pay parity for them for doing the same amount of work.

Deputy Martin Heydon

Again, I thank both Deputies for raising this point. It is important that is discussed in the House because these people do crucial work for us around the country. It is a complex area because of the historical nature of section 39 and section 56 workers. Similar considerations arise in respect of other sectors across government, adding to the complexity in seeking to resolve matters in any specific sector. All parties that are involved want to see a meaningful resolution that will improve sustainability and the ability of these vital organisations to actively recruit and retain staff, and for those staff to be happy in their circumstances.

The Departments have made an offer of a pay increase in line with offers that have been accepted by community and voluntary workers in other sectors. This offer is still available and the Department remains available to return to the WRC. I encourage the unions and employers to return to this process and to avoid industrial action and the negative impacts this will have on service users so we can try to come to a satisfactory conclusion for all sides.

Invasive Species Policy

Deputy David Stanton

I thank the Leas-Cheann Comhairle for selecting this matter and I thank the Minister and Minister of State for being here.

A number of years ago we did not know about Japanese knotweed but now we do. We know how dangerous it is and how expensive it is to remove. In some instances and in some countries, people cannot get mortgages if it is on a site. Invasive species such as this are becoming more prevalent because of the movement of people and global warming. I want to draw the attention of the House this morning to the most recent threat, which is the red fire ant, a native of South America. A while ago, it moved to North America and to the United States, where it costs $6 billion annually. Now it has been found in Italy, which the first such discovery in Europe. It damages crops and electrical equipment and spreads very quickly because of global warming, the movement of people and, in particular, the importation of soil. It is good that the Minister and Minister of State from the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine are present to take this matter because this particular ant can have a devastating effect on agriculture. It also affects people because its sting can be very dangerous and can lead to allergic reaction, hospitalisation, and death.

The red fire ant moved to New Zealand but they eradicated it there. They were on the ball in New Zealand. They saw it coming and when it arrived, they were ready for it. They dealt with it quickly and got rid of it. I have read reports suggesting that it could move to northern Europe quite easily, especially with global warming, as I said earlier. I ask the Ministers to indicate whether there is an awareness of this danger. What agency in the State is responsible if this ant arrives in Ireland? What action can be taken quickly to eradicate it before it gets a foothold here? If it gets a foothold, it will be very difficult to get rid of it. It spreads very quickly and it is very damaging. It can even damage cars because it burrows into electrical equipment. It can damage computers and so on, so we can see how difficult it could be for people, plants, agriculture, electrical equipment, and for industry. We do not want this ant here.

Are the local authorities responsible for identifying this? Should people be told about it? It has been found in parts of the UK and Finland but has not gotten a foothold in either country yet. However, it has gotten a foothold near Syracuse in Sicily, Italy, where 19 nests were found in one particular area. The risk, given that it is in Europe now, is that it could spread. We really need to be aware of it and prepared for it, as well as other invasive species that could be on the way as a result of global warming. We should be on the lookout but who is responsible for this? What action is going to be taken and who is going to take it before this ant gets a foothold?

Deputy Martin Heydon

I thank the Deputy for raising what is a really important issue. This is not just about red fire ants but also the broader issue of biosecurity, which as he rightly said, in the context of our changing climate is a growing concern that needs greater vigilance in terms of the many different threats that we can face. To answer his question as to who is responsible, the National Parks and Wildlife Service, NPWS, of the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage is responsible for the implementation of the EU's invasive alien species regulation No. 1143/2014, which provides for a range of concerted EU-wide measures to be taken with respect to listed species of Union concern, known as the Union list. The red fire ant or solenopsis invicta, is included on the Union list. There are currently 88 species listed as being invasive alien species of Union concern but only 12 of these species have been recorded in Ireland as established.

While there have been reports recently of red fire ants arriving in the south of Europe, and that a population in the wild has been reported in Sicily, it is important to note that this is the first such report in Europe and there is no evidence that the species is present in Ireland. The species is largely a tropical or subtropical species. There is no evidence of expansion into temperate zones and nor is this anticipated in the immediate future. The areas currently most at risk of invasion by red fire ants are coastal port cities on the Mediterranean Sea. However, as with all potential invasive alien species threats, pathway management and preparation is important to reduce the risk of an isolated arrival turning into a more widespread problem.

In this context, the NPWS recently published three priority pathway action plans in accordance with Article 13 of the EU invasive alien species regulation and these plans can be accessed on the website www.invasives.ie. One of these plans is for the soil and spoil material introductory pathway, an identified pathway for insects. Border biosecurity and preventing establishment is the best option available for keeping these and any other species on the Union list out of Ireland. These are areas addressed by the pathway action plans. For example, for all small mobile invasive alien species, there can be issues with stowaways within trade goods, agricultural fodder, horticultural material and imported materials. These should be adequately cleaned and that needs action and vigilance at points of entry.

The National Biodiversity Data Centre, NBDC, operates a sighting report alert system which allows members of the public to notify the authorities of sightings or suspected sightings of invasive alien species. Verification expertise, including from experts at the National Museum of Ireland, is in place to rapidly identify reported suspected sightings. Officials from the NPWS also participate in the British Irish Council Invasive Non-Native Species, INNS, working group which provides a forum for information sharing on how to deal with various species of common concern and horizon scanning of invasive alien species threats across administrations in Ireland and Great Britain. Furthermore, the current programme for Government contains a commitment to the development of a national management plan for invasive alien species. Work on this plan is well under way. The NPWS engaged in a scoping exercise with the NBDC to look at how best such a plan could be developed and implemented in a way that collates the range of important work on invasive alien species that is carried out nationally, locally and by stakeholders across Departments and agencies. The draft plan is currently being considered by a steering committee chaired by NPWS, which met for the first time in March 2023. It has since met in June and will convene again later this month. The NPWS intends to have a final draft of the plan ready for public consultation later this year and envisages that the plan will be finalised and launched in 2024.

Deputy David Stanton

I thank the Minister of State for his response and acknowledge the work that is going on here. While he said the ant has not been found in the wild in temperate climates such as ours, it has actually been found in Finland, Spain and the UK. It has been found in imported soil and dealt with but the risk is still there and we have to be extremely vigilant. As I said earlier, Japanese knotweed was something that we knew nothing about until recently. It came in to the country as an ornamental plant but it spread very quickly. It is only in recent times that action has been taken to get rid of it and it is proving to be very challenging. The same will apply with this particular species of ant as well as to other species, as outlined by the Minister of State. The red fire ant is particularly damaging, dangerous and expensive.

I am particularly interested in the importation of soil into Ireland. I understand the EU has banned the export of soil from the UK but what is the situation with soil coming into Ireland in various ways? All kinds of plants and shrubs are imported from various places and, as the Minster of State said, this is often how invasive species arrive into the country. What steps are being taken to ensure the red fire ant does not get in here in the first place? If it does get in here, is the Minister of State confident that action can be taken quickly to deal with it and to eradicate it before it gets a foothold?

Deputy Martin Heydon

Again, I thank the Deputy for making sure we are discussing what is a really important issue. A lot of work is happening behind the scenes on such threats to our country. We have the advantage of being an island nation, which we need to use to full effect from a biosecurity perspective to keep ourselves safe. This is an advantage that other countries in continental Europe do not have. The Deputy has given me an opportunity to outline who is responsible and some of the safeguards that are in place but this is not an area we can be complacent about because the threats constantly evolve.

In terms of soil and other threats, I outlined earlier how the close supervision of points of entry for things like fodder, soil or other elements is key. As the Deputy outlined, we have seen the damage that other invasive species have done here. He mentioned Japanese knotweed and I am also thinking of the likes of ash dieback. There is a huge threat when we import foreign soil, trees and shrubs which is why we want to be as self sufficient as possible in that regard. Where there are entry points, we need to ensure that the appropriate safeguards are in place.

It should be noted that the drafting of legislation relating to invasive alien specie is at an advanced stage and we will see that progress later this year.

It is likely the national management plan will identify a significant funding gap in terms of resources currently allocated to invasive alien species in Ireland and what will be needed to meaningfully tackle the issue at national level.

With regard to specific species such as the red fire ant, it is important to monitor and keep up to date on reports of such species recorded on becoming established in other parts of Europe. The Deputy outlined examples that are not dealt with in my response. That is important but it is also important to consider these reports and updates in the proper context in order that appropriate action can be taken within the overall work being done on invasive alien species in this country. The red fire ant is, without doubt, a damaging and unwelcome species. Although its presence in Italy is undesirable, we are monitoring that on a risk-based assessment here. If the Covid-19 pandemic taught us anything, it is that we need to be prepared for all eventualities. We continue to work in that regard.

Agriculture Schemes

Deputy James O'Connor

My apologies for being late this morning. I meant no disrespect to the House or the Minister. I got badly delayed in traffic while coming in.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Ceart go leor.

Deputy James O'Connor

I thank the Minister, Deputy McConalogue, for being here to deal with the issue of targeted agriculture modernisation scheme, TAMS, grants. It has been raised by many of my colleagues. My constituency office has been getting several queries on the matter. TAMS has been very successful in providing to farmers additional capital resources from the State and European funding to enable them to carry out key construction and improvement works on farms. The range of projects included is vast. Timing, however, is critical in a farming calendar, as the Minister and Minister of State are well aware. The summer period is optimal for the construction of new facilities for the winter months. In addition, however, coming into the winter months, particularly on dairy farms, many herds are dried off and that gives farmers the opportunity to make preparations for spring, such as new calving sheds and other facilities for the expansion of dairy herds, including milking parlours, slurry tanks and so on. Such projects require a significant amount of capital and forward planning. There is a need to secure planning permission and get one’s consultants to design the new farm infrastructure and sheds.

There are significant delays, however. I think the office is based in Wexford but I stand to be corrected in that regard. There are significant delays due to IT problems and other matters and this needs to be dealt with urgently. My office is getting calls from all over my constituency and beyond to try to get this matter addressed. The Minister is aware this is a serious problem and needs to be addressed. Thousands of people working in agriculture in Cork East as primary producers - farmers - need clarity on this matter, as do farmers nationally.

Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine (Deputy Charlie McConalogue)

I thank the Deputy for raising the issue of the availability of these significant supports for on-farm investment. It is of importance for farmers throughout the country, particularly in his constituency. The Government and I, as Minister, are committed to delivering on this. The new TAMS 3 commenced in February with the launch of the solar capital investment scheme and then opened up for different items all the way up to when it closed at the end of June. Overall, €370 million is profiled between now and 2027 for TAMS. The Deputy will be aware of the range of supports that is offered and some of the key steps we took, particularly in respect of new developments relating to the 60% grant aid for female farmers and the launch of a new separate ceiling for solar TAMS.

I recently announced we would be accepting 100% of all those who applied and meet the criteria. In the past, approximately 85% of applications were approved. Many missed out. All applicants who meet the criteria will now be approved. In addition, we have given forward approval to applicants for mobile TAMS investments to go ahead and purchase. Approximately half of all applications received are for mobile investments. Those applicants can now go ahead and make their purchase under TAMS.

We opened it up in order that applicants who need to finish work by this winter, such as those who need slurry storage or sheds for animal welfare, could apply for urgent approval. We received a number of those applications before 15 September and we are providing those grants in order that people who want to do work this winter can do it.

We received the largest number of applications ever. This tranche is by far the largest number of applicants we have ever had. Obviously, that has created a big administrative burden in terms of working through the approvals. After we have given the immediate urgent approvals for those who want to do work this winter, the next step will be to give approval to applications under solar TAMS and, thereafter, to step it out, item by item, to ensure applicants get approval in the coming months.

Deputy James O'Connor

That is very helpful information. I reiterate that the waiting lists and the backlog that is occurring in the TAMS administration office within the Minister’s Department needs to be reduced urgently. It is great to hear of the work that is being done in terms of prioritisation of cases. May I bring a couple of cases to the attention of the Minister? These are people who are very much caught up in the delays. There is urgency to these cases. The Minister rightly referred to animal welfare. These improvements are about providing infrastructure for the proper care of animals on farms. In addition, there has been growth on many farms throughout the country in recent years in the context of the post-quota era. That puts additional stress and strain on existing and older farm infrastructure. It is why the continuation of TAMS is critical and the scheme has been so successful in its take-up. I would like that to be explored further.

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

We are trying to sequence this. It cannot all be done in one go. It should be borne in mind that it opened up through a number of months and only closed on 1 July. A record number of applications were made and we have to work through them in the most efficient way possible. We have given authorisation to half of all applicants to go ahead and make their purchase. That relates to the mobile TAMS. In addition, we have pulled out the urgent applications relating to work that needs to be done this autumn. Such applicants should have notified us by 15 September, and had the option of doing so. If there are other applications of which the Deputy is aware, he should please bring them to me. The applicants would need to show the applications are urgent in order that they can get dealt with now. We wish to ensure that anybody who needs to do work in winter to be ready for spring can do so. That is the objective. Once we have all those applications approved, we will work our way through the others in as effective and efficient a way as possible. It would not be fair to characterise it as a backlog. The scheme was open until 1 July. We have stepped it out and approval has been given to half of all applicants to now make their purchases. In addition, we are giving approval to those who need to get builders on site and we are working our way through all the other applications. The first in the line to get approval in that regard will be applications under the solar TAMS.

Disability Services

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

I mean no disrespect to the Ministers who are present - I am not sure which of them is taking this matter - but I hoped the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, if not the senior Minister, would be here to take this. The Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, has been directly involved in this matter and is aware of the issues involved. I regret that neither she nor the senior Minister is here. I mean no disrespect to the Ministers present. It is unfortunate.

Carrigaline Community Special School was set up two years ago. It was the first special school established under the patronage of Cork Education and Training Board, ETB. Its establishment came in the context of coming out of Covid. There was a very tight timeframe from its being announced to its opening. The issues I am raising are no reflection on the ETB or the principal, Colm Manley, who are both doing an excellent job. This is about respite and therapies and the fact that the children in the school and their parents feel profoundly let down. They believe they are receiving a lesser quality of service and treatment than that provided to children in other special schools and their parents.

There are two primary issues here. The first relates to respite. Most special schools in the Cork area are operated by organisations that have been in the disability and special education sector for some time and, as such, have their own respite resources. They are the service providers for respite and therapies. Cork ETB has no such background and did not, therefore, have respite at its disposal to support the parents and ensure the children get the benefit of that respite.

During this time, these parents have not even been able to get onto the list for respite. There are 48 children in the school and the parents of many of them are under very severe pressure. That they have not been able to get onto a waiting list is simply not good enough. There were, I believe, ten suppressed beds for some time. Parents are still waiting for clarity on when those ten suppressed beds will come back into circulation and whether they will be able to access them. That is the first question.

On therapies, the HSE has been saying there are school-based therapists. In reality, insofar as it is the case, my understanding is that these therapists have only been coming into the school to work with the staff and provide training. Even where therapy has been available, it is provided to four of the 48 children in the school, namely, those who reside in the nearest children's disability network team, CDNT, area. This means there is no therapy available. The HSE has been trying to tout these as school-based therapists when they are available one day a week, and really only for the staff so far. The other 44 children are being told to go to the therapist in their home team. Some of them have not been seen by their home team. They should be getting support in the school. I know in other areas such as in Danu Community Special School in County Dublin, all children were allocated a CDNT team in the vicinity of the school to ensure they had access to the therapies they need.

I will raise a few more points in my next contribution. I am raising this issue on behalf of Cork Parents Unite, which has been pushing it as hard as it can to try to get answers on the respite and therapies that these parents so badly need for their children.

Deputy Martin Heydon

I thank the Deputy for raising what is no doubt a very important point for the pupils and parents of Carrigaline Community Special School. The Minister of State at the Department of Health with responsibility for disability, Deputy Anne Rabbitte, sends her apologies that she could not be here and has asked me to take this Topical Issue matter in her place. The Minister of State is fully committed to the development and enhancement of children’s disability services and to ensuring access for all children with complex needs across the country. This includes all appropriate respite services and therapies, including in-school supports.

Following discussions with the Taoiseach and Government Ministers in 2022 regarding the priority requirement to reinstate the health and social care supports that were historically provided in some special schools in the State, it was agreed that funding would be provided for an additional 136 posts to progress this requirement. It was also agreed that the special school-based services must be aligned with the existing CDNTs.

Having listened to the ongoing concerns of parents of children with complex needs who attend special schools, and mindful of this Government’s priority to deliver comprehensive on-site health and social supports to special schools, the HSE was requested to commence the process of allocating further staffing resources to these schools. Following a recent meeting between the Department, the HSE, the ETB and the school principal, positive developments have been made recently regarding Carrigaline Community Special School. An update from the HSE advises that there is now an on-site presence for speech and language and occupational therapists in the school, notwithstanding the concerns the Deputy just raised about the extent of that presence. I am left in no doubt about based on the points he raised. I am told, however, that work is actively ongoing to reinstate similar psychology supports to the school, with posts being advertised for relevant therapy assistant positions this week. In addition, the CDNT is working with the school to support the team there in developing the pupils’ functioning and participation in their educational setting.

The HSE advises that until staffing is fully resolved for the initial cohort of special schools, including Carrigaline, interim bridging arrangements required to meet the instructions supplied to the HSE are being developed. The HSE and lead agencies are working through a process with parents of children attending these schools.

The provision of respite services has come under increasing pressure in recent years due to an increase in the number of children and adults who are seeking access to respite as a reflection of general population increase, along with increasing levels of complexity across the sector. The Government is committed to the provision of additional respite as a key priority. This is reflected in the additional funds provided in successive budgets in recent years.

A Cork regional children’s respite forum was established in 2022. The forum manages referrals and respite service provision in the Cork area. Children up to the age of 18 years with a disability who are in receipt of services from a CDNT in Cork-Kerry Community Healthcare are eligible to apply for respite and-or home support services to the committee. This process will ensure there is equitable provision of service based on prioritised needs. The HSE has advised that the forum met throughout the summer, most recently on 6 September 2023. A total of 133 children were referred during these meetings. Children from ETB schools, including those in Carrigaline, were included in the referrals.

The Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, is awaiting clarity from the HSE on the number of referrals that have translated into actual overnight placements. This information can be supplied to the Deputy once it is received. While these issues present challenges, the Minister of State wishes to reiterate her full commitment, and that of the Department and HSE, to pursuing every avenue in order to ensure access and availability of appropriate respite and therapies for children with disabilities in Carrigaline, the wider community healthcare organisation, CHO, 4 area, and across the country.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

I thank the Minister of State. There are two specific points I ask him to bring to the attention of the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, after this debate. First, a school in Enniscorthy is being provided grants to source the therapies that are needed locally through the private sector. Can such an approach be considered for Carrigaline Community Special School? It has been on the go for two years now and it has not received anything. Second, there is the issue of having a nurse on site, which is not currently the case. Obviously, that presents challenges with catheters and so on.

The Minister of State referred to the commitment of the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte. I do not dispute that one bit but that is not the issue here. The parents believe the Minister of State she is very sympathetic to what they are trying to achieve. The problem is trying to get the HSE to enact what is being brought forward by the Minister of State. A big part of the problem is making sure the HSE is properly accountable here. My understanding is that the Minister of State walked out of a meeting recently because she was dissatisfied with what she had been told about the therapies.

This Minister of State referred in his reply to having an on-site presence for speech and language and occupational therapies in the school. "On-site presence" is a clever use of language. There is a presence but it has primarily been working with the teachers and staff, and they can do nothing to even indirectly support 44 of the 48 children who are on site. Even in the coming weeks, when one of those additional positions will be filled for one day a week it will effectively operate as a satellite for the CDNT for one day week. For the other children, that service is not available and I do not believe there is any prospect that it will be available. A model needs to be adopted similar to, although not precisely the same as, the one adopted in Danu Community Special School.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy is over time.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

How can we ensure the HSE delivers what the Minister of State is asking it to do? How can we ensure it is accountable?

Deputy Martin Heydon

I thank the Deputy again for his contributions and highlighting this important issue. I reassure the House that the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, will continue with the Department and the HSE to drive progress on both the reinstatement of therapists in special schools in Carrigaline and elsewhere across the country, and increasing the availability of respite services to children with disabilities.

The Deputy compared the situation with one in Enniscorthy, spoke of how these issues could be resolved and made a point about the nurse at the school. I will bring these points back to the Minister of State and her officials to consider. The HSE has relayed to the Department of Health the level of activity and engagement taking place within the HSE on the issue of special schools, from the CEO all the way to the heads of service and lead agencies. The HSE has left us in no doubt that it has heard the message from the Department and is doing everything possible to accelerate support to schools.

I can report that the Minister of State recently held very positive discussions with the CEO of the HSE, Mr. Bernard Gloster, on ensuring that priority is afforded to children's disability services. I assure the House that the Minister of State and her officials will continue to engage with HSE senior management to drive enhancements in disability services for children in Carrigaline and the rest of the country. Again, I thank the Deputy for raising these points. I will bring the specific elements he has raised back to the officials and the Minister of State.