Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 12 Oct 2023

Vol. 1043 No. 7

Saincheisteanna Tráthúla - Topical Issue Debate

School Enrolments

Deputy Jennifer Whitmore

I thank the Minister of State for standing in for the Minister, Deputy Foley, this evening. Three weeks ago, enrolment opened in Greystones for the 2024 secondary school intake. The three schools that opened their enrolments were St. David's Holy Faith Secondary School, Temple Carrig School and Greystones Community College. In five weeks' time, those three schools will write to parents to let them know whether their child was successful in applying to the school. There will be hundreds of students awaiting that news. This is a time of year and a time in sixth class students' lives that should be exciting for them. They should hear in November which secondary school they will go to. They will know if their friends are going to the same school and they will be excited about making new friends, going to a new school and, perhaps, using an iPad. I know from experience that having a locker is also a really big thing for these students. This should be an exciting time for them but, unfortunately, we are yet again going to have a large number of students in Greystones for whom this time will not be exciting. Instead, it will be very stressful for them and their parents. This is because a large number of children will not get a school place in November.

This is something we have seen very regularly in the Greystones area, primarily because there has been great growth in the area. We have seen more than 4,000 new people come into our community since the previous census. However, it is not just because of the growth. It is also because investment in school infrastructure has not kept pace with that growth. That is the main problem. Of the three schools that opened their enrolments, two are unable to offer the same number of places they did last year. For this incoming intake, there will be 72 fewer places for secondary school students. This is a great deficit and there is a discrepancy in the numbers because there are more sixth class students coming out of the primary schools this year. This is going to be a big problem.

To be fair to the schools, they have been incredibly proactive in this. The three schools came together and issued a press release informing parents that there will be problems with enrolment this year. One of the schools, Temple Carrig School, had to wait two years for four temporary Portakabins to be put in to help deal with capacity issues. The promised permanent extension for that school is nowhere to be seen. There has been no update on it so the school is having to reduce the number of children it can take in in September. The story is similar with Greystones Community College. It too is reducing numbers because it is waiting for a brand new school building. That will be fantastic when built but it needs to be fast-tracked.

I hope the Minister of State has a script from the Minister telling me exactly how the Department is going to ensure every child in Greystones will have a secondary school place available to him or her for 2024. Parents will need that information, as will the children and the schools. I hope he will be able to provide us with that clarity this evening.

Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs (Deputy Sean Fleming)

I am taking this Topical Issue debate on behalf of my colleague, the Minister for Education, Deputy Foley. I thank the Deputy for raising this matter. It gives me the opportunity to set out for the House the position with regard to post-primary school places in Greystones for September 2024 and onwards. I assure the Deputy that the provision of school places to meet the needs of children and young people at primary and post-primary level, including children and young people with special educational needs, is an absolute priority for the Department.

As the Deputy may be aware, for school planning purposes, the Department of Education divides the country into 314 school planning areas and uses a geographical information system, GIS, to anticipate school place demand. Information from a range of sources, including child benefit data, school enrolment data and information on residential development, is used for this purpose. In addition, Project Ireland 2040 population and housing targets inform the Department’s projections for school place requirements. Having considered the projected requirements in each school planning area, the Department then makes an assessment of the existing capacity within that particular area and its ability to meet any increased demand. Where data indicate that additional provision is required at primary or post-primary level, the delivery of such provision is dependent on the particular circumstances of each case and may be provided through either one or a combination of utilising existing unused capacity within a school or schools, extending the capacity of a school or schools and the provision of a new school or schools.

The Department is aware of pressures at post-primary level in the Greystones school planning area, which are partly due to the currently proposed reduction in first year places for 2024-2025, and is working to establish the true extent of any capacity issues across the school planning area through ongoing discussions with the relevant school patrons and authorities. This close engagement will also allow the Department to identify particular capacity requirements for the coming years and put any required solutions in place to ensure sufficient school places to meet the needs of students in the area.

The Department's projections of post-primary school place requirements in Greystones show an anticipated continued growth in enrolments until 2024. In response to the projections of school place needs in Greystones, the Department is providing significant additional post-primary capacity, including a new 1,000-pupil school building for Greystones Community College. Greystones Community College was established in 2020 as a regional solution for the Kilcoole and Greystones area. The project to deliver this new school building is at stage 3, the tender stage. In addition to this project, the Department has recently delivered a major building project to expand St. David’s Holy Faith Secondary School and is also progressing a building project for Temple Carrig School in Greystones under the national development plan.

St. David’s Holy Faith Secondary School is co-educational and a major building project to deliver state-of-the-art modern school accommodation for 750 pupils was provided at the school. Temple Carrig School in Greystones is also a co-educational school and was established in 2014. There is a project under way to provide accommodation at this school for 1,000 pupils, which is currently at stage 1, the preliminary design stage. A project to deliver four modular mainstream classrooms has also been approved. These classrooms are now on site and the project is nearing completion. In addition, there is the existing school in the adjacent Kilcoole school planning area, Coláiste Craobh Abhann. A major project to expand this school to 1,000 pupils has been approved and is currently at stage 2b. It is being delivered by the National Development Finance Agency.

I assure the Deputy that Department officials will continue to actively engage with schools and patrons to ensure there is appropriate provision for all students in Greystones for the 2024-2025 school year and into the future. Families can be assured that any necessary solution will be delivered so that all of the children in the Greystones school planning area will receive a first year place.

Deputy Jennifer Whitmore

I thank the Minister of State. He specified four schools. He mentioned Greystones Community College, which is to receive a new building. That is very welcome and we are really looking forward to it. No date as to when it will be delivered is provided in his response. My understanding is that it is to be in 2025, but that is assuming everything goes well. From experience, it tends not to.

On St. David's Holy Faith Secondary School, yes, it is a fantastic facility. Lots of investment has gone into it. My understanding is that it has not resulted in any additional places within that school. They are offering the same number of places in 2023 as they will be offering for 2024.

On Temple Carrig Secondary School, the Minister of State said that the classrooms are now on site and the programme is nearing completion. That school was built for 750 pupils and it currently has 950 pupils in it. I know because my children go there. They have had to teach their children in corridors in that school. Those portacabins only deal with the increased number of pupils the school has taken in over a number of years. They will not allow the school to take on any additional pupils and as a result, Temple Carrig is offering less places for 2024. It is also waiting for a permanent extension, and it is unfortunate that the Minister of State has not provided any details for timelines for that. It is at stage 1 but it has been at stage 1 for quite some time.

Regarding Coláiste Chraobh Abhann, CCA in Kilcoole, there is a project planned for that. Again, it is currently at stage 2B, with no further information. We have no dates, no timelines and no security for parents or for the schools that the facilities will be available for them. However, I take comfort from the fact that the Minister for Education, Deputy Foley, has said that all children in the Greystones planning area will receive a first year place. Can the Minister of State, Deputy Fleming, please pass this onto the Minister, Deputy Foley: please get the Department to work very closely with the schools in the area, so that this is sorted out as soon as possible. What we do not want to have is parents worrying for months, and solutions being cobbled together at the last minute. I ask that we please avoid that stress for parents and the school community.

Deputy Sean Fleming

I want to acknowledge the remarks of Deputy Whitmore in the short response. In truth, the Temple Carrig Secondary School, Greystones project is at stage 1, which is preliminary design. In addition, regarding the Kilcoole area, I mentioned the project at stage 2B. That is early stages, and it is not possible to put a timescale on the finalisation of that project or either of those projects at this stage. I do not have an exact date. It would not be possible to give a date on those yet because it has not gone through the tender process.

I also want to thank the Deputy for giving me the opportunity to relay the position regarding Greystones. I will personally speak to the Minister, Deputy Foley, on this matter because I am here on her behalf tonight. As I have outlined, there is a strong pipeline of projects, and these are delivering significant additional capacity. I take the point the Deputy has made about the school that is already over capacity. Some of the prefabs are already accounted for with regard to dealing with that area. The Department has been in contact with the schools and patrons, and they are aware of the evolving situation with respect to first year places for 2024. We are reliant on getting clear data from the schools in a prompt manner, which the Department wants to verify. Sometimes, and I know this from my own area in Portlaoise, when there is a situation like this, parents apply to a number of schools and there can be a duplication of applications. That needs to be examined on a school-by-school basis. I can understand why parents do that but sometimes it can lead to a greater number of applications than there are physically children or pupils in order to go ahead.

On that basis, the Department is monitoring the data very carefully and I can only reiterate the Minister's commitment that there will be a place for everybody in the Greystones area in September 2024.

Child Abuse

Deputy Chris Andrews

I thank the Minister for Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth, Deputy Roderic O'Gorman, for coming in. I know we have discussed this issue. I would like to welcome Mick Finnegan into the Gallery. Mick has been a tireless advocate for survivors of sexual abuse in St. John Ambulance Ireland and he has been hugely affected, like all survivors have been. He has devoted his life to getting some sort of answers and consequences for those who abused him and many others. I would like to acknowledge Mick's presence here.

I recently saw some script from Joe Mooney, who said:

It is to Ireland's shame that survivors must exhaust themselves from pleading to be heard. It still appears child protection is everybody's business until it is not.

That resonated with me, and I think it resonates with most people and certainly survivors. I have to ask, does the Minister feel that serious reforms have been made? There does not appear to be any. Nothing is happening, and everything seems to be quiet. Survivors are still waiting for answers. There are no consequences for those who carried out these disgusting acts. Six months have passed now and the board of St. John Ambulance Ireland remains largely the same. Judge Dr. Geoffrey Shannon's recommendations still have not been implemented. The two long-standing board members who were meant to resign still have not. One left, and the other is now the interim chair. That seems like another kick in the teeth for survivors.

I was talking to Mick about this last week, and we were saying there seems to be a disparity within our society regarding people from socio-economically deprived and disadvantaged areas in that they are not worthy of the same support from the State, despite crying out and asking for help. There is that real sense, when survivors start looking at other examples of abuse and how it was treated, that they feel if they were from a different class, they would be treated differently. It is an important thing, and it is important we hear those concerns of survivors.

All survivors want is real accountability, and every member that was a senior officer on the board to step down and let the good, honest and hard-working volunteers take over, and let them continue to do the good work that the organisation has done in this country for well over 100 years. Only then will survivors accept and acknowledge that accountability has taken place. The survivors and I do not feel that there has been any accountability. There have been no consequences for the perpetrators, the organisation and the culture within that organisation. Despite the recent resignation, there remains people on the board of St. John Ambulance Ireland who were not only aware of what was going on, but had even adapted lyrics of popular songs at the time to mock the children being abused in the old Kilmainham ambulance division in Dolphin's Barn.

Minister for Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth (Deputy Roderic O'Gorman)

I thank the Deputy for his query, and I am glad we are joined by survivors in the Gallery tonight.

The board of St. John Ambulance Ireland commissioned an independent review and appointed Judge Dr. Geoffrey Shannon, with the assistance of Ms Hilary Coveney and Dr. Cian Ó Conchubhair, to carry out the review into the handling of complaints of historical sexual abuse of members under 18 years of age. As the Deputy knows, the review was commissioned at my urging to the board of St. John Ambulance Ireland.

St. John Ambulance Ireland published the report into the handling of past complaints of abuse in the organisation on 16 March of this year. A number of recommendations were made by Dr. Shannon regarding improving overall child protection and safeguarding practices in the organisation, including the recruiting of a new, full-time national safeguarding lead. St. John Ambulance Ireland also published a response document on 16 March 2023. The response document outlined the St. John Ambulance Ireland action plan in respect of implementing each of Dr. Shannon’s recommendations. A quarterly update to this response plan was also published by St. John Ambulance Ireland in July of this year.

Officials from my Department have engaged with St. John Ambulance Ireland around assurances regarding current child protection and vetting practices in the organisation. Department officials have engaged with Tusla and the commissioners of St. John Ambulance Ireland to ensure that appropriate supports were in place for survivors of abuse on the publication of the report, including counselling supports to survivors and a helpline operated by Tusla. They have also engaged with St. John Ambulance Ireland and Tusla to ensure that all appropriate actions were taken in response to the findings of the review report, with a particular emphasis on seeking assurances that there is no unvetted member working with minors or cadets within the organisation.

St. John Ambulance Ireland has advised the Department of the following for survivors accessing counselling. Any survivor can select their own counsellor from the list of approved counselling providers employed by St. John Ambulance Ireland, and it is the counsellor who then engages with St. John Ambulance Ireland to set up the payment arrangements.

St. John Ambulance Ireland advised that the counselling support for survivors of abuse was deliberately designed in this manner so no survivor would have to engage directly with SJAI if they did not wish to.

SJAI has commenced the recruitment process for the new, full-time national safeguarding lead. The process has been progressing since the close of applications in late September. The lead will work with SJAI volunteers who operate the child protection policy and report directly to the board of SJAI.

SJAI has advised the Department that at the end of June, two of their longest-serving board members, who had agreed to stay in their roles to assist with the delivery of the independent safeguarding report and the preparation of plans for implementing Dr. Shannon's recommendations and who included the independent chairman, had stepped down. A new interim chairman has been appointed and the board of SJAI has a process in place to replace the directors who have resigned.

I am committed to upholding the best interests of children in all situations. I note the progress made by SJAI in implementing the recommendations of the report into historical abuse and the ongoing co-operation of SJAI with the Department in this regard. I look forward to hearing about the appointment of the national safeguarding lead. Any concerns about child abuse relating to SJAI or other services, organisations or individuals should, of course, be referred to Tusla and An Garda Síochána at the earliest opportunity.

Deputy Chris Andrews

Does the Minister believe serious reform has happened in SJAI? That is a critical point. He mentioned counselling. My understanding is that only one survivor has engaged in the process to access counselling. Rather than waiting for survivors to engage in the process, the Government, Department and SJAI should be proactive and deal with the individuals.

The Minister mentioned that he was establishing an institutional abuse working group to examine the report of Dr. Shannon. Has it been established? If so, who sits on it and what is its remit? When will it report, and will the report be published? Mick Finnegan has been strongly advocating to obtain basic information. There are many others who have not been able to come forward. From a trauma-informed perspective, the State needs to move and be proactive in engaging with survivors.

Does the Minister believe it is appropriate that the current board remains in situ given the findings of the report? Does he believe serious reforms have been made?

Deputy Roderic O'Gorman

I have always been available to survivors of abuse in this organisation. I have engaged with Mick Finnegan on several occasions and remain open to doing so. I just wanted to put that on the record because the Deputy is right that it is important for the State to engage in this process.

The report was published and Dr. Shannon set out a range of recommendations. It is now six months since the report's publication. We have received one update regarding the recommendations. All of them have not been implemented. I do not know whether it is reasonable to think everything could be done in six months but it is important that we keep the pressure on to ensure all the recommendations are implemented. That is why, after some engagement with survivors over the summer, I wrote to SJAI. I was very surprised to hear the board members had not stepped down, so I wrote. The board members have now stepped down.

I was particularly concerned about what I felt was the lack of speed in the appointment of the national safeguarding lead. I am glad to know the process is under way. The appointment of the individual will give me significantly enhanced reassurance because, fundamentally, a failure to implement existing child safeguarding policies was central to what allowed sexual abuse to take place within the organisation. Having the role in place is essential in assuring me there has been change in the organisation.

The working group is meeting. It is primarily made up of representatives of my Department and Tusla. It will consider the report of Dr. Shannon but also report on institutional abuse or organisational abuse in other areas of Ireland. There are a couple of cases in the UK, including the Rochdale case, where state actors failed. The group will be taking what can be learned from these and ascertaining how we can apply it in the Irish context.

Heritage Sites

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

I thank the Ceann Comhairle for allowing me to raise this issue again and the Minister of State for coming in to answer questions in the House. I raise the matter on this occasion to ensure the focus remains on the vital issues surrounding access to Castletown House, Celbridge, in my constituency, and the future of the house, which is a stately mansion of historic significance. It is significant architecturally and in terms of local amenities and tourism. It has an historical link with this House because the Speaker of the Irish Parliament came from there.

I welcome the ongoing negotiations. However, there is a worry, namely that while those discussions are taking place, the access that was previously enjoyed by the general public and the State, which owns Castletown House and 227 acres, is not available. People had the right to pass freely in any direction they wanted for the past 15 years, albeit on foot of a licence granted by the neighbouring landowner. That arrangement has now come to a halt and the access has been denied. The longer that access is denied and the State and its agents cannot traverse from the M4 to the house and grounds, as was previously the case, the more a question mark will be raised. I welcome the presence of the Minister of State, Deputy Fleming. I ask that every effort be made to restore access for the public in the shortest time possible. The longer the house remains closed, the greater the chance that it will not be open to the public again in the way we had become accustomed to.

Deputy Sean Fleming

I thank the Deputy for raising this important, sensitive and difficult issue concerning Castletown House, Celbridge. As he and everybody knows, it is an 18th century neo-Palladian country house built within an extensive estate. The Deputy will be aware that there have been many difficulties over this matter recently. I have a very extensive note on the matter but even if I do not get to read it all into the Dáil record, he will be given a copy of the full script.

In 1994, the Office of Public Works took responsibility for Castletown House and estate. Initially, there was only 13 acres of land with the house. It has long been the policy of the OPW to seek to reunite the parts of the historic Castletown estate. In 1997, 100 acres south of the house were acquired. The farmyard adjacent to the house was acquired in 2001. In 2006, lands associated with Batty Langley Lodge were acquired, and former Coillte lands to the north and east of the house were acquired in 2007. Since 2008, the OPW has reassembled 227 acres of the original 580 acres of land that formed the historic demesne.

As part of the policy to seek to reunite the historic Castletown demesne lands with the house and lands in the care of the State, the OPW sought on several occasions to purchase the lands from Janus Securities, including when the lands were offered for sale on the open market in 2022. However, despite the best efforts of the OPW, the State was outbid in the open market process and ultimately, the lands were acquired by a private purchaser.

The OPW entered into negotiations with the new landowners on a licence agreement in May 2023. While the OPW was prepared to pay the significant uplift in the licence fee the landowners were seeking, the OPW could not agree to the unreasonable terms of the licence agreement. The landowners then allowed the use of the M4 access road and carpark until 15 September 2023. In the interest of ensuring access for approximately 25,000 annual visitors to Castletown House and approximately 1 million visitors to the estate, the OPW continued to work with the landowners. During July and August of this year, the OPW sought to buy the land from the new landowners. However, it was not possible to agree to purchase the majority of the land holding. On 31 August, the OPW made a compelling without prejudice offer to the private landowners to specifically acquire the 19 acres of land comprising the carpark, a right of way on the access route from the M4 gate and other lands close to the House. This was rejected by the new landowners.

As it appeared unlikely that agreement could be reached, the OPW developed plans for a small carpark of 70 spaces. While the M4 access may have changed, the State continued to have primary access to Castletown House and estate through the historic Celbridge gate entrance. The purpose of this was to ensure adequate access to Castletown House which is of national and international significance. The proposed temporary car park would have assured the primary, historic access route through the Celbridge gate and over Lime Avenue to Castletown House. It would have enhanced facilities for cyclists and drivers with a disability. After a robust and positive engagement with the local community, the OPW did not proceed with the temporary car park plans. This was after having listened carefully to local community views in Castletown. However, the impact of this was reduced car parking at Castletown House with a smaller number of car parking spaces. The primary access would be through the historic Celbridge gate and Lime Avenue for cars. A concern was raised by residents that the lack of car parking would result in inappropriate parking in neighbouring housing estates. However, this is outside of the role of the OPW

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

I thank the Minister of State for his reply. While discussions continue to take place, they have not been successful to date. It is opportune at this stage for the State to seek a temporary injunction to gain the access the Minister of State referred to in his reply from the M4 to the estate, including the estate house and the 227 acres the State already owns. It is not an unreasonable request. It does not in any way impact on the adjoining landowner who will continue to have full access to the road, as is his right, but the State should also be accommodated to secure the facilities the State owns, which have historical, architectural and community significance. The State should safeguard its interest as a matter of urgency. That means seeking legal opinion with a view to seeking an injunction to enable the State to safeguard its access and pointing out that the alternative access referred to by the OPW is completely out of reach for the simple reason that the traffic would exit onto the main street in Celbridge, which would be totally impractical in the present climate as there is severe traffic congestion already. Anything more added to it will only make matters worse.

Deputy Sean Fleming

On the specific request for legal action to allow access for OPW staff, agents and visitors, there does not appear to be any legal grounds for this. I understand the sentiments of the Deputy. The compulsory purchase order, CPO, process is long and engaging. It would take a substantial period and we cannot be sure of the outcome. The purchase of land is an obvious option which is being pursued. The OPW has as its major objective for this project to improve the facilities in the grounds and not have overspill into adjoining properties, onto the main street and into the housing estates in the area. The further difficulty is that if access is not permitted, OPW staff cannot clean, maintain and service the house, including the toilets. The OPW has a duty when it has employees on the premises to have adequate facilities available. That is being compromised at the moment and it is making the situation difficult for staff.

All I can say is that we, through the OPW, have met community and elected representatives. The Deputy stated the case clearly here this evening to try to bring it to a conclusion. The OPW is willing to do so, but not at a ransom price when acting on behalf of taxpayers. That is one of the issues with land in private ownership. Most people, including the Deputy, will say there must be a limit and the taxpayer cannot be held to ransom in situations such as this one. The OPW will continue as best it can to liaise with all involved and to work towards a satisfactory conclusion, notwithstanding the current difficulties.

Health Services Staff

Deputy Jennifer Murnane O'Connor

As the Minister of State will be aware, today we spoke about section 39 workers. I was delighted to have my Topical Issue matter chosen this evening - I thank the Ceann Comhairle - because we need a resolution of this before Tuesday. We need to make sure section 39 workers do not strike next week. I will make a few points that were raised by me and others today.

As the Minister of State will be aware, the strike is a result of pay disparity between front-line staff employed by State-funded healthcare services and equivalent staff who work for State-funded community health and social care services. The growing pay gap of between 10% and 15% has resulted in a recruitment and retention crisis, which is blocking thousands of children and adults from accessing critical mental health, disability, homelessness and addiction services. I have met every section 39 worker in Carlow who contacted me. These dedicated section 39 workers who are employed in voluntary, not-for-profit healthcare organisations have undergone the same rigorous training and education as their counterparts in section 38 organisations and HSE workers. They work under the same conditions, face the same challenges and shoulder the same responsibility but do not get the same rewards.

I am always mindful when I single out particular services. I am on the board of Holy Angels day care centre, I have met BEAM Services, the Delta Centre, the Irish Wheelchair Association and all the other services. I can attest to their commitment and dedication. They love their work and they are dedicated. While I thank the Minister of State for coming tonight, I am a little disappointed that the Minister, Deputy Donohoe, did not. My question, which needs to go back to the Minister, is this: what additional payments will be allocated by the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform? As the Minister of State will be aware, there was a 5% rejection by the section 39 workers.

We have to find a way to avert this strike. We have to get everyone around the table at the Workplace Relations Commission, WRC. What commitment can the Government give as regards funding? We need to get this resolved. We need a commitment from the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform to ensure this does not go ahead. Tonight is the last Dáil sitting before Tuesday, when the strike could happen. I am asking the Minister of State to get a resolution of this, to go back to the Departments, and to talk to the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform and to the Minister, Deputy Donohoe, to get a commitment so that this will be resolved.

Deputy Sean Fleming

I thank Deputy Murnane O'Connor for raising this matter. I am taking this Topical Issue matter on behalf of my colleague, the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform, Deputy Donohoe. What Deputy Murnane O'Connor is saying resonates with everything that has been said in the debate here for the past two hours or so. The issues are very serious which is why we had a full and extensive debate on it here. We are all conscious of the notice for strike action next Tuesday. Something like that always helps to concentrate the mind and I want to say before I go any further that the views being expressed in the debate here earlier, and by Deputy Murnane O'Connor here now, will be personally conveyed to the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform, by me, and that this further debate is now taking place here in the Dáil as we conclude business today.

I note the Deputy is asking about the retention of workers in section 39 organisations and I would like to make a general comment on the matter of retention of staff. The economy is performing incredibly well under the present Government. Unemployment is at a record low level. Of course, in such a situation, it gives rise to a retention challenge across all sectors in the current climate of full employment. Every employer in the country will tell you that they have a problem recruiting and retaining staff as people have more opportunities in a strong economy than they would otherwise have.

I will now turn to the issue of the section 39 agencies issue. Section 39 of Health Act 2004 allows for private sector organisations to provide services for members of the public. These are known colloquially as section 39 organisations. I would add that the workers concerned in these organisations are not public servants but are employees of private organisations. Their legal employment relationship is with the private sector employer. Such matters are primarily for the individual employers and employees as part of that relationship.

The section 39 organisations receive grant funding from Tusla and the HSE, provided through the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth and the Department of Health. This funding is used to service payroll and other organisational costs. The funding for section 39 organisations has increased considerably in recent years and is now in excess of €1 .6 billion, having increased by over 60% since 2018. This demonstrates this Government’s commitment to service delivery in this sector.

During most of that time, since 2018 to 2021, or thereabouts, there was little or no inflation yet over that period there was a 60% increase in funding to those organisations. That has to be acknowledged and is where most of these negotiations must take place. The process of engagement with these organisations in recent years has been very extensive. In 2018 and in 2020 there was engagement with the Workplace Relations Commission, WRC, and in recent months, in respect of various groups in the community and voluntary sector, an agreement was reached on a 5% settlement for community employment scheme workers in March. Agreed processes were put in place to address pay rates for section 39 workers. That has been agreed in many places. I understand that 60% of qualifying organisations took part in these processes and that pay increases were provided for in stages following an audit and verification exercise.

A range of engagements have taken place under the auspices of the Workplace Relations Commission. These processes led to this offer of 5%, as the Deputy has already indicated. It was disappointing that this offer was not put to these organisation's own employees for a vote. No vote was given to the employees and it would have been useful if they had a vote because some of this pay increase was also being backdated. I understand that the union, within its rights, chose not to give its members a vote in this situation. I encourage all parties to go back to the Workplace Relations Commission urgently and that the strike be deferred, as called for by the Deputy.

Deputy Jennifer Murnane O'Connor

For me, from having spoken with all of the section 39 workers, their issue is one which needs to be addressed. They are employed in voluntary not-for-profit healthcare organisations. They have undergone the same rigourous training and education as their counterparts in section 38 organisations staffed by the HSE workers. They work the same conditions, face the same challenges and shoulder the same responsibility but do not get the same pay.

That in itself, I say to the Minister of State, is unfair. It makes them feel rejected and makes them ask why should they do the same work and get less pay when they can go to the HSE and get more.

Also, everybody has the same bills and is facing very significant challenges now. While we are in a good place where everybody is doing their best and is working, every penny coming into a household now is crucial. We want to ensure that those section 39 organisations have the very same pay as section 38 organisations. I found from speaking to the section 39 workers that their morale was broken. That is why we have the very significant issues with staff, recruitment and retention.

I ask the Minister of State now again to go back to the Minister, Deputy Donohoe - again, I am raging he is not here - and ask him, as we need to know, what funding he will put through the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform to ensure that we do not have a strike on Tuesday because we are affecting the most vulnerable people and children in our society whom we need to ensure are looked after. As I said, section 39 organisation workers do not want to do this. They are so upset over it but they feel they have no choice but to do this now because it is not fair. They feel that they are not getting what they deserve and they deserve proper pay.

Deputy Sean Fleming

I thank the Deputy. I want to reiterate that the Government recognises the important role section 39 and section 56 organisations and the staff on their payrolls play in terms of the work they do. They continue to have a vital role in providing services to people with disabilities, vulnerable children and older people. I know that they are proposing to go out on strike with a heavy heart and a tear in their eye; they do not feel good having to do this but that this is the position they are in at this stage.

The line Department which directly provides that funding are the people who should be involved in this negotiation. I would urge at this late stage that over the weekend and by Monday, if it is possible, these workers go back to the Workplace Relations Commission, and re-enter negotiations and resume discussions that were already taking place. This can only happen if the actual strike action on Tuesday is postponed. Everybody here would like to see this resolved without people having to formally go out on strike in such a sensitive area in view of the people these workers look after on a daily basis. I urge, once again, that the strike be deferred and that people go back to the Workplace Relations Commission. Everybody knows that that is how the system works. We have seen that in other strikes or potential strikes over the years. We are at the 11th hour, and now is the time, for the Workplace Relations Commission, the State organisation, to be utilised at the beginning of next week.

Hopefully, a resolution can be found at that stage but I cannot give any commitment because the Workplace Relations Commission is independent in what proposals it will put to both sides.