Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 17 Oct 2023

Vol. 1044 No. 1

Ceisteanna ó Cheannairí - Leaders' Questions

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

In anguish and despair the world watches the terrible violence and devastation in Israel and Gaza. Seared on our minds are scenes of civilians killed, wounded and taken hostage. There have been scenes of homes destroyed and entire neighbourhoods wiped out by military bombardment. Lives have been lost and shattered beneath the rubble. The scale of human suffering and the depth of grief is unimaginable. The killing of civilians in Israel by Hamas was unjustifiable and was condemned. Israel's siege of Gaza, which continues decades-long daily brutalisation of Palestinian people, trampling on their human rights, and the wanton violation of international law must be condemned.

Yesterday we lost one of the world's great peacemakers, former Finnish President and Nobel laureate, Martti Ahtisaari. He famously said:

Peace is a question of will. All conflicts can be settled, and there are no excuses for allowing them to become eternal.

As Israel lays siege to Gaza, international and European diplomacy needs to heed those words.

EU Commission President von der Leyen's unqualified support for Israel's unmerciful military attack on the people of Gaza and her failure to assert the primacy of international law was reckless, inflammatory and dangerous. Ms von der Leyen does not speak for Ireland.

Deputy Matt Carthy

Hear, hear.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

The Taoiseach correctly stated last week that the targeting of Palestinian civilians, cutting off water, food and medicines and the destruction of civilian infrastructure are grave breaches of international law. He described Israel's bombardment of Gaza as collective punishment and he was right. More than 3,000 Palestinians, including 1,000 children, have been killed so far. Thousands more have been injured and 600,000 people have been displaced. The people of Gaza, a refugee population, are running out of food, water, fuel and electricity. As the wrath of one of the world's most ferocious military forces is unleashed upon them, as their homes and neighbourhoods are decimated by Israel's carpet bombing, Gaza's civilians are left with nowhere to shelter or run and with no way out.

Israel's actions are not defensive. They are an offensive attack against a beleaguered and impoverished civilian population. It is the horrible crescendo of occupation, annexation and apartheid. This is not defence. These are crimes against human rights perpetrated in full view of the world. If we do not call it what it is, if the international community does not stand unified against it, then history will record this as the defining failure of our generation. Our children and grandchildren will ask us how this was allowed to happen. Peace and justice demand that Gaza does not become the graveyard of international law. Israel's blockade must end. The bombardment of Gaza must stop and ceasefires must be called. Hostages must be released and space must be created for dialogue.

Caithfear deireadh a chur le héagóir chruálach Iosrael agus bombardú ar Gaza. Ní mór don Aontas Eorpach a bheith mar phríomghuth ar son sos cogaidh, comhrá agus dlí idirnáisiúnta. Ending the bombardment of Gaza and stopping the violence must be the priority.

In my view, that should be the position of the Dáil. It should also be the unified approach of the EU.

An Ceann Comhairle

I thank the Deputy.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

The Taoiseach will attend an emergency meeting of European leaders. At this meeting, will he call for ceasefires? Will he call for an end to the bombardment of Gaza, for dialogue and for the imposition of international law?

Deputy Matt Carthy

Hear, hear.

The Taoiseach

I thank Deputy McDonald for raising this very important and very serious matter once again in the Dáil. I say once again that Ireland unreservedly condemns the brutal attack by Hamas and other militant groups on Israel and the devastating loss of life it has caused. We also condemn the terrorist attacks that occurred in France last week and in Belgium only yesterday. We also demand the release of all hostages without any conditions immediately.

Israel has the right to defend itself and to pursue Hamas terrorists who attacked its civilian population, and we accept that right. However, Israel's response must be exercised within the parameters of international humanitarian law; even wars have rules. Collective punishment should not be inflicted on the population in Gaza. Citizens must be protected and Gaza must have access to humanitarian aid. There must be the establishment of humanitarian corridors. There is also a need to prevent the conflict from escalating and spreading to other parts of the region, which is an enormous concern at the moment.

This afternoon I will attend an extraordinary meeting of the European Council by video conference to discuss the unfolding crisis and to aim to have a united response from the European Union building on the joint statement we issued on Sunday. I expect the Council will repeat its strong support for Israel’s right to defend itself in the wake of brutal terrorist attacks that occurred on Israeli soil and also reconfirm our condemnation of Hamas. But I also expect, and hope, that we will call for a de-escalation of this conflict. Ireland will be calling for a humanitarian pause so that refugees, including some of our own citizens, can get out and supplies can get into Gaza. The conflict between Israel and the Arabs has been going on for more than 75 years. It has been 75 years of wars, refugees and terrorism. There is no military solution to this conflict. The solution can only be one based on peace between Israel and Palestine and based on peace between Israel and the Arab states that surround it. When the fighting stops, and let us hope it does not go on for too long, there will be a need for a new peace initiative involving partners like the US, the EU, Saudi Arabia, Egypt and other countries. What we have to do now and prioritise in the next couple of weeks is make sure that civilians are protected, humanitarian corridors are established and that any actions Israel takes to remove terrorists from Gaza are done in accordance with international law.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

It is abundantly clear that Israel is not abiding by international law, humanitarian law or the law of wars, as the Taoiseach put it. There have been 3,000 Palestinian deaths. Many more people are missing under the rubble. We have witnessed with our own eyes collective punishment and the targeting of civilian infrastructure resulting in no water, no medicines, no food and an increased level of desperation. We have seen, and Israel openly called for, forced transfer of the population, another violation of international law in the clear sight of the international community.

I appreciate absolutely the need to condemn the horror that was visited on Israel and the killing of those civilians and taking of hostages. I absolutely do, but I cannot understand or accept the Taoiseach's failure to condemn the Israeli onslaught on a refugee population hemmed in in what has been described as the world's largest open air-prison, with an impoverished refugee population.

An Ceann Comhairle

I thank the Deputy.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

The answer to this is peace. The answer to this is a ceasefire, not a humanitarian pause or de-escalation but a ceasefire. I ask the Taoiseach again to make that call and take that message to the European Union.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

The Taoiseach

Alongside the UN, we have called for the order which Israel has made for Palestinian people to move to the southern part of Gaza to be rescinded. That is not an acceptable demand in our view. We have also clearly condemned the cutting off of supplies of water and fuel to the people of Gaza. That is not acceptable. In contrast, we need humanitarian corridors. The European Union is working on that with Egypt at the moment. Israel has the right to defend itself, to pursue the terrorists who attacked its civilian population and to bring them to justice but it must do that within the basic rules of international law. It is the case that Hamas hides itself among the civilian population, but they are not to blame for that and there can be no excuse or acceptance of civilians or civilian infrastructure being targeted in this way.

Deputy Holly Cairns

The situation in Gaza is a humanitarian catastrophe. Yesterday, the death toll stood at 3,000, more than one third of whom are children. A child in Gaza is now being killed every 15 minutes, so in real terms, by the time the Taoiseach finishes responding to my questions, another child will be dead. There is no water or electricity. Food has nearly run out. Even the body bags have now run out. Hospital generators are running on fumes. When the hospitals run out of fuel, some time today or tomorrow, incubators keeping babies alive will be switched off. Their short lives will be over then too. Humanitarian aid, food, water and medical supplies are stuck in Egypt because Israel has refused to agree a ceasefire. Israel will not even stop bombing for a few hours to allow citizens of its supposed allies to get out. Forty Irish citizens are trapped in Gaza. The carnage and terror they witness every second they remain there is unimaginable.

This is not a war. It is a genocide and ethnic cleansing. The response of the EU has not just been inadequate but has been callous, indifferent and dangerous. This reached rock bottom on Friday when Ursula von der Leyen visited Israel. By then, Israel had dropped 6,000 bombs on an area half the size of Louth, thousands were dead and injured, food, water and electricity supplies had been cut off, and the Israeli Government had given 1.2 million people 24 hours' notice to leave northern Gaza. What was the European Commission President's response to this litany of war crimes and breaches of international law? She stood with the Israeli Prime Minister and offered him the EU's unqualified and unconditional support. She said, "Israel can count on the EU."

Last year, when Russia targeted civilian infrastructure and cut off electricity supplies, Ursula von der Leyen called out its war crimes. When Israel acts similarly, she not only failed to utter a single word of criticism but she went to the region to offer support for its war crimes in our name. The Commission President's failure to unequivocally condemn Israel's collective punishment of the Palestinian people has undermined the EU's response to this crisis. Given that von der Leyen has no authority to override member states' foreign policy positions, her comments also amounted to a serious overreach of her authority.

I am grateful that the Taoiseach and Tánaiste have been clear that Ireland's position is that Israel is in breach of international law but it is really concerning to hear the Taoiseach's words in this Chamber because they are weak. He has an opportunity at today's emergency meeting of the European Council. I have three questions. Will he explicitly condemn the European Commission President's response to this humanitarian disaster? What will he do to ensure that Ireland exerts the strongest possible influence for a ceasefire and de-escalation of violence at that meeting? What is the Government doing to get Irish citizens out of Gaza?

The Taoiseach

The position of the European Union is the one agreed in the statement by the European Council. That was agreed on Sunday after many conversations over the weekend. I hope we will be in a position to build on that position today at the extraordinary Council of the European Union. Each EU member state has its own foreign policy. We only have a common foreign policy when we agree to have one and when we can agree joint statements.

While President von der Leyen has done an extremely good job as President of the European Commission on issues such as climate, Covid and Ukraine, some of the statements she made lacked balance. I said that to her and have no difficulty saying it. The statements she has made more recently were more balanced, specifically those relating to the tripling of EU humanitarian aid for Gaza and the attempts we are making at present to organise a UN humanitarian air bridge from Gaza through Egypt.

We will be calling for a de-escalation. We do not want to see this conflict spread to other parts of the Middle East. I am conscious that we have troops in Lebanon and Syria and I am concerned for their safety. Nobody wants to see this spread to Lebanon, the West Bank or other parts of Middle East. There are actors who want that to happen, perhaps including Hamas and some states in the region. We should not forget that.

We will stand over Israel's right to defend itself. I hope we all agree in this House that Israel as a state has a right to defend itself and to pursue terrorists who attack it, but we will be very clear that it is our view as a country that this must be done in accordance with international law. The fact that Hamas hides among the population, uses Palestinian civilians as human shields, and is now using Israeli hostages as human shields is not acceptable. We need to call that out too. However, those civilians are not to blame for the fact that Hamas uses them as human shields and should not be punished collectively as a result.

Deputy Holly Cairns

I agree it needs to be condemned on both sides. We have been clear about that but the Taoiseach saying that her statements lack balance in itself lacks balance. It is more than lacking balance to go over and stand with the Israeli President and say that Israel has the EU's support. A genocide is occurring on our watch and the international community is standing by and letting it happen. The Taoiseach just says he hopes to build on a position at the Council meeting; that will not go far enough. I want him to please not underestimate the importance of his voice at today's European Council meeting. Ireland is one of very few states willing to call out Israel's war crimes for what they are. We have a responsibility to the people of Palestine to do all we possibly can in the upcoming hours and days to push for a ceasefire and the opening of aid corridors. The Taoiseach mentioned that, but the tripling of EU aid to Palestine is pointless unless these corridors are opened before it is too late.

We need to make it unequivocally clear that Ursula von der Leyen does not speak for Ireland, and has no right to offer our support and the support of the other 26 member states to Israel as it rains down bombs on innocent civilians. The UN is calling this an ethnic cleansing but the EU is failing to even condemn it. EU officials are still failing to offer any kind of criticism. How long more will the EU stay silent at the expense of these people? Will the Taoiseach please use his voice today to represent Ireland on this?

An Ceann Comhairle

Thank you, Deputy. We are way over time.

Deputy Holly Cairns

The more minority the voice, the more important it is to speak louder for these people.

The Taoiseach

I hope that we can all agree a few things in the House. First, that we condemn without reservation Hamas's actions in Israel and that we call for the release of the hostages immediately and without any preconditions. I hope we will all agree, just as is the case for any sovereign state, including ours, that Israel has the right to defend itself and has the right to pursue the terrorists that attacked it-----

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

These are not defensive actions.

The Taoiseach

-----and try to rescue the hostages who are currently being held in Gaza. I hope we can all agree on that. I also hope we can agree on a third thing, namely, that it is not acceptable for Israel in defending itself to violate international humanitarian law, to target civilians, to cut off civilian infrastructure or to order people to be displaced to the south of Gaza. I hope we can agree on all those things.

I specifically asked about the consular situation. We are in constant contact with a number of citizens in Gaza and all the relevant authorities regarding their cases. We are also closely working with the EU and other states that have citizens in Gaza too. On citizens in Israel, the main airport, Ben Gurion at Tel Aviv, remains open and commercial flights are available. We are assisting Irish citizens to depart through commercial means.

We are also monitoring the situation at Rafah, where the border crossing situation remains fluid. We are in contact with the relevant authorities through our embassies in Tel Aviv and Cairo, and our office in Ramallah, to assist Irish citizens who want to leave to do so, as soon as foreign passport holders are allowed to do so.

Deputy Cathal Berry

I will raise the issue of childcare provision and early childhood education. I acknowledge that there has been some progress in the past couple of years. There were some good announcements last week as well, which will take a small bit of pressure off. While I acknowledge some moderate progress, there is a whole lot more to do. The reason I mention this today is, at best, the Government has just one budget remaining in its lifetime and this Dáil only has one budget left so the window of opportunity to fix this problem is closing, and closing fast. While I appreciate the country has finite resources, the allocation of funding for childcare is not just a financial decision. There is also a moral component and a moral decision to it. Most people will accept that if women in this country had equal access the power, issues with childcare and early childhood education would have been solved decades ago. While other EU countries were putting in place very sophisticated infrastructure for early childhood education, our Constitution told us a woman's place was in the home. If that was not good enough, we bought in the marriage ban and doubled down on it. We have been chasing our tails ever since to try to get out of that hole we put ourselves in.

In retrospect, defining moments in a country's history can be identified when it pivots either for good or ill depending on the quality of the decision that was taken. A decision in 1966 in Ireland still rings true today. That was Donogh O'Malley's announcement of free secondary education. What we are asking for is a second Donogh O'Malley moment, not focusing on secondary education but focusing on early education. The reason for this is we are of the view that education for our citizens who are under five years of age is at least as important as for citizens who are over five years of age. Will the Taoiseach give any indication to the House as to whether he will fund early childhood education properly in the remaining term of this Government to provide for the country's future, to tackle the inequities of the present and, perhaps most importantly, to atone for the wrongs of the past?

The Taoiseach

I thank the Deputy. I hope that when this period is looked back on there will be what might yet be seen as a number of Donogh O'Malley moments. What we have done, particularly as regard to employment rights, such as the move to a living wage, is hugely significant. There is the introduction of statutory sick pay and all the different forms of parental leave, which did not exist before, as well as the national pension plan legislation the Minister for Social Protection, Deputy Humphreys, will bring in this year to make sure every worker has an occupational pension on top of his or her State pension. These are big changes, these are big reforms, and the extent of them will be seen more so in the future than they are currently.

The other area that has been really significant under this Government, building on the work of the previous one, is affordable healthcare. For the first time, more than half the country is entitled to see their GP without having to pay fees. Hospital charges have been abolished for public patients and the cost of medicines has been considerably reduced. That is enormous progress in only a short space of years.

When it comes to childcare, the Government has expanded preschool provision and the early childhood care and education, ECCE, programme very considerably. By next September, we will have reduced childcare fees by 50%. That is a very significant reduction in fees and that will really help a lot of families to pay the bills. That also has huge societal benefits, including benefits for children in getting early education and in their development and, of course, economic benefits in allowing parents to re-enter the workforce much sooner than they would otherwise be able to do so, were it not for that.

As for the next steps beyond that, they will be for the next budget, as the Deputy rightly pointed out. The fact the Government will have reduced childcare fees by half by next September is very significant progress and we particularly want to move into other areas such as the access and inclusion model, AIM, for example, for children with disabilities and so on so they can get access to healthcare and early education too.

Deputy Cathal Berry

I thank the Taoiseach for his response. i agree there has been some progress, but more definitely needs to be done. What a wonderful legacy it would be for the 33rd Dáil to bring in free early education for the people of this country. I accept there are competing priorities but whenever I ask for someone's priorities, I never ask for their press releases or the statements they have made; I always say, "Show me your accounts," because it is only in the allocation of finite resources that we reveal our true priorities.

I recognise there is progress. I recognise there is more work to be done, but Donogh O'Malley's example proves that we can be brave. We were brave once and we should be brave again. I urge the Taoiseach to summon the courage to solve this problem once and for all and we will solve early childhood education once and for all.

The Taoiseach

In terms of our accounts, when it comes to early years childcare and early education, the budget for next year for the first time will exceed €1.1 billion. When this Government came to office, it was €0.63 billion. There has been a 70% increase in investment in just over three years. That is really considerable. What does that mean for parents? It means by next September the average family will pay half what they paid for childcare than when this Government was re-elected. That is a considerable achievement with huge societal benefits and benefits for children, families and the economy more widely. Of course, we want to build on that but, as the Deputy says, there are competing priorities. We will have to see where we stand next August-September when we prepare the next budget.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

Transport Infrastructure Ireland sent a very important memo to the Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan, warning him that a continued failure to invest in new road projects would result in 77 deaths and 381 serious injuries over the next five years. That is a very serious assertion for any group or organisation to make. Budget 2024 has seen a 13% decrease of €200 million in funding for roads.

I want to speak about a number of important road projects for County Kerry. If the N22 Farranfore-to-Killarney bypass project does not go ahead soon, according to Transport Infrastructure Ireland, three deaths and seven serious injuries are liable to occur at this location. Kerry County Council requires further funding in order to get to and over the route selection phase for this road and has applied for it. Will the Government support the construction of this road despite the likelihood of it being stalled by the current climate action plan? This road is integral for the continued economic growth of our county and, of course, for the tourism capital of the western world, that is, Killarney town. We also need the relief road to be constructed from Lissivigeen roundabout out to the Muckross Road, which, of course, would service the great INEC and the Gleneagle Hotel and all of the other hotels and big guesthouses that we have along what we like to call the golden mile in Killarney out to Muckross, where thousands of tourists, people from around the country and locals enjoy what is to offer by the great families that are steeped in the tourism product that is County Kerry for many years.

We also need funding for the Newcastle West relief road. Transport Infrastructure Ireland, TII, says that four deaths and four serious injuries will occur there if that job does not go ahead. As for the N21 Abbeyfeale relief road, five serious injuries will occur; and the N72-N73, Mallow relief road, three deaths and seven injuries.

Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael are facilitating the Green Party's underinvestment in roads which, in turn, as stated by TII, will lead to more deaths on our roads. Road deaths are already spiralling out of control. An Garda Síochána statistics state that 151 road deaths already this year compares to 116 at the same time last year.

I take this opportunity to say how sorry I am that, in County Kerry alone, over the last number of weeks we have had too many, in particular, young people, who have tragically lost their lives on our roads. I want to say how sorry I am to their families and their extended families.

Money for basic maintenance of our road network is totally inadequate. The local authority, Kerry County Council, does excellent work but it needs funding for basic maintenance. I recognise, acknowledge and thank the Government for what money we have got but we are falling very far behind at this time.

The Taoiseach

I want to recognise Deputy Michael Healy-Rae for raising the very serious issue of road safety. Like everyone, I was shocked to see the headlines over the weekend. Five more people died on our roads in different incidents around the country. With the Deputy, I would like to extend my deep sympathies to the families affected and the friends of those who were lost on our roads.

It is devastating to see the extent to which road fatalities have increased over the course of this year. We have to turn the tide on it over the next few months and I am determined to do that in co-operation with the relevant Ministers and authorities involved.

When it comes to road safety, there are many different aspects. There is, of course, education because ultimately it is human behaviours that lead to most road traffic collisions. There is getting our laws right, which is also really important. There is not much point in having laws if they are not enforced and that is why Garda enforcement is really important. That is being stepped up at the moment. We also need to make sure our courts enforce the law. There are too many loopholes in our road traffic legislation that we need to close. There is also the issue of regulation and making sure that our vehicles are safer through the national car test, NCT, and regulations around cars. The Deputy is right that maintenance and improvement to roads also has a part to play in terms of road safety. Just today, the Minister of State, Deputy Chambers got approval for the road safety measures Bill. That is new legislation on road safety. That will be coupled with an increase in enforcement and ensuring that we enforce the existing laws.

Other areas are also important. Investment in public transport takes cars off the road and that can contribute to road safety. As a Government, we have agreed to invest in public transport and roads with a 2:1 ratio. We have not quite achieved that yet but that is the objective. Improving footpaths and cycling facilities also contribute to road safety. We have to see this in the round.

On specific road projects, the Deputy will know that we have approximately €500 million a year for road maintenance and restoration - approximately €500 million a year to improve roads. It is never the case that we can advance every project every year; that was never the case but we try to advance as many as we can. In the near future I will be not too far from the Deputy to formally open the Ballyvourney section of the Macroom-Ballyvourney bypass. I will be in Athy soon enough, hopefully with An Ceann Comhairle, to see the long-promised Athy distributor road opened. Only a few weeks ago, we signed off on a major section of the N5 running through Roscommon between Tulsk and Scramoge, and we opened the Turlough to Westport bypass of Castlebar earlier this year. There are a lot of road projects still happening. I cannot give guarantees about any particular funding for any particular projects but the roads programme will continue to advance. It was never the case that we could advance every project every year and we will have to make decisions in that regard.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

I am sure the Taoiseach will be ecstatic to know that I will be standing shoulder to shoulder with him at the opening of the Ballyvourney section of Macroom bypass. It is no thanks whatever to the Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan that this road is opening because if we were relying on the Minister for Transport who does not like building roads to open it, it would never have opened and would never have been put there. I am glad it is there in spite of some people. I warmly welcome the Taoiseach to come there and to open that leg of the road.

I also want to raise something the Taoiseach mentioned, namely, education. For a long time , I have said that when a student leaves secondary school, he or she should do so with his or her leaving certificate in one hand and a full driver's licence in the other. I really believe that. The learning of the rules of the road and driving a motor car should all be accomplished by the time a person leaves school. It would be for the betterment and the safety of all. In saying that, I want to ensure that our young people can get a driver's test. The Taoiseach will be aware of the extraordinary delays. That is wrong and should be dealt with as a matter of urgency.

While I would like to see anything that could be done to help stop the deaths on our roads, I do not think the further reduction in our speed limits is the answer. There are basic things that we should start doing such as cutting hedges on all our roads and taking surplus water off our roads - basic road maintenance. They will lead to as much safety on our roads as any other measures but they are measures we are not taking.

The Taoiseach

It is all these things. We know from the success we had a few years ago in bringing down the number of road fatalities - and we should not forget all the injuries either, many of which are life-changing - that it is never one thing. It is about approaching the issue from five or six different aspects. I agree that road maintenance and improvements are part of that picture but they are only part of it.

The Deputy made a strong case a number of times for educating children in school about road safety and, potentially, even being able to do their theory tests in school, which I think is a good idea but I know people will say back to me that we should not overload the curriculum. I am not sure I am convinced about that.

On the driver test issue, I acknowledge the unacceptable delays at the moment around the country. People are waiting for six months to a year, sometimes, to get their driver test. We will get on top of that. We have hired new driver testers and estimate, by the middle of next year, that the wait time will be back to approximately ten weeks. It will fall between now and then. It is something that we acknowledge needs a lot of work. I am reminded by the Chief Whip who is sitting behind me not to forget to mention that the Moycullen bypass will also be completed this year. Another vastly improved road will open.