Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 18 Sep 2024

Vol. 1058 No. 1

Saincheisteanna Tráthúla - Topical Issue Debate

Defective Building Materials

Deputy Pearse Doherty

I thank the Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, for staying for this Topical Issue matter.

The next facet of the defective blocks crisis emerging in County Donegal is that within community childcare facilities. Raphoe Community Playgroup has already been forced out of the building it owns due to the fact that it was condemned, and it now has to fundraise to find a permanent home. This is despite me standing in this very spot back in May and raising this issue with the junior Minister at that time through another Topical Issue matter. Letterkenny community playgroup is in a race against time to find a new home and Ardara community playgroup has been given six to eight months before its building is condemned as well. In fact, some in the industry have claimed that as much as 40% of all childcare facilities in County Donegal may have to close in the coming years because of this issue.

As the Minister will know, there are huge waiting lists for childcare facilities in Donegal. Just what does this mean if we are seeing places closing down because they are being condemned as a result of defective blocks? Currently, the childcare sector in County Donegal does not have the capacity to meet the demand for all places, and all services in all areas have waiting lists. This will worsen because of the closures due to defective concrete blocks. Approximately 45 children attend the playgroup in Raphoe, 100 children attend the playgroup in Ardara and 150 attend the playgroup in Letterkenny. These organisations have all been hit with the same thing. There are defective blocks in these premises, some of which are already condemned and where people have had to move out and others in which the clock is ticking down. These organisations are not included in the Government's flawed defective block redress scheme for houses as their buildings are classed as commercial buildings even though they are not-for-profit. They are not alone. Many other community and charity organisations in County Donegal are in the same position. Indeed, we understand that many other playgroups and crèches are in the same position, but they have not made that position public yet. The Government has not provided any real support or advice for community organisations affected by this crisis. The Minister talks about vision in public service and all the rest. This is a not-for-profit sector in County Donegal that does not know where it is going to go. It is completely in limbo. The Minister has had time to try to get to grips with this situation. Government was warned years ago that these buildings had defective concrete blocks and would soon not be safe for the children to be in. The Letterkenny community playgroup did tests that found they had a high percentage of deleterious material in their blocks back in 2019. That was five years ago. The Minister's Department was told about this at the time. People have been campaigning on this issue now for five years. This news should not have come out of the blue when I raised it again with the Department back in March. These childcare facilities have to resort to staging a protest on the local elections polling day to get the Government's attention. In an interview on a Donegal radio station just before the local election, the Taoiseach promised that he would personally engage with the Minister and the Departments of children and housing to see what solution could be found. What is the result of those engagements? We have heard absolutely nothing. Has a solution been found and, if so, can these childcare facilities be told as soon as possible? It is currently the Minister, Deputy O'Gorman's, Department that has to pick up all the pieces in this regard. It concerns his Department, Pobal and the local childcare committees. Can the Minister outline exactly what measures have been taken to address this and what supports will be provided to these community playgroups and other community groups that will likely be in the same position? This is not a one-off situation. I raised the issue of Raphoe here many months ago and I told the Government that it was not a one-off situation. I am now telling the Minister about Letterkenny. The Government knew that from five years ago. I am now telling him about Ardara, and I guarantee that we will be in here, either myself or Deputy Mac Lochlainn, telling the Government about other community playgroups in County Donegal that have defective blocks. These buildings are crumbling, and they have been condemned. This is a serious issue. People had a fundraiser. They got money from INTERREG, PEACE funding and, in some cases, departmental funding to actually build these buildings.

They have nowhere to go. They do not know what the future is. The staff and parents do not know. The Government has no scheme or answers for them. That is not good enough. The Minister stands there and talks about vision and public service childcare. A not-for-profit sector is operating here. They have no help. They have been abandoned by the Minister's Department on this. It is not fair. I hope the Minister has answers for them tonight.

Minister for Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth (Deputy Roderic O'Gorman)

The Department works with Pobal and local childcare committees to offer case management supports to services in difficulty. Through this process, services may also access sustainability funding following an assessment of need. One strand of this funding can support a service with the cost of relocation. Pobal and Donegal County Childcare Committee are in communication with Ardara Community Childcare regarding the issue of defective blocks and these supports. In the first instance Donegal County Childcare Committee will assist the service in trying to source a suitable alternative location. If a suitable alternative location is sourced, the Department will engage with Pobal and the childcare committee regarding the service and assist in funding a relocation through the case management process. A new strand of emergency capital for fit-out and renovation of premises or necessary maintenance is being developed by the Department. The purpose of this funding will be to support the completion of essential, emergency capital works in community early learning and care and school-age childcare settings that are core funding partner services. Eligible services will be those that are unable to afford the costs of remedial works necessary to ensure the service meets its regulatory requirements and remains financially viable in the long term. The service will submit a rationale for the need and provide evidence of need and eligibility for the funding. It is anticipated that this capital funding will be used to provide support to eligible service providers that are unable to afford the costs of essential remedial works. This includes critical fire safety works and emergency capital projects, both internal and external.

As we know, the safety of children and staff is paramount, and the Department has been assured that this service will have inspections from engineers annually. The service will not be able to operate if it is deemed unsafe to do so. The Department will continue to engage with Pobal, local childcare committees and services in order to support services that have been affected by mica. This is a unique situation, and each service will need to be supported on an individual basis. The Department has recognised the need to have a capital funding stream to deal with emergency situations such as the one Deputy Doherty outlined and the one Deputy Barry has raised in north Cork. This is a strand of funding we are devising to be ready to meet these particular needs. It is a new strand of funding and that is a clear recognition of need in situations like this.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

We have not seen the Minister's capital funding or its criteria, but he described it as critical fire safety works and other emergency capital projects, both internal and external. Does the Minister understand what is happening with these buildings? These buildings are going to be demolished. Big JCBs are going to come in and tear them to the ground. They have to; the blocks are rotten and they are crumbling. This is not a matter of fire doors or issues in terms of fire escapes, or the type of scheme the Minister has talked about, which is welcome. A separate funding stream is required as a result of deleterious materials. This results from light-touch and no-touch regulation overseen by successive Governments. That is the problem here. The core issue is being ignored by the Minister's Department. We have had these conversations with the operators. The Minister is telling them that there is a scheme here and that it is the same scheme as that for a private operator that needs fire stops in its doors. That is just bonkers. When will Raphoe Community Playgroup and the playgroups in Letterkenny and Ardara have clarity that they can build the playgroups that they owned, from top to bottom? It is not good enough that they are left in limbo. I said that these people have had to raise funds. They had to scrimp and scrape to build a premises in the first instance. One playgroup has been told that it will cost €1 million to rebuild its premises. Will the Minister's fund allow them to rebuild their premises for €1 million? Will 100% be available to those premises? Is that what the Minister is talking about? If it is not, that is just waffle. They need to know and they need certainty. It is not acceptable that they have been left in this situation. There are concerns about staff facilities. The Minister spoke about relocation. That is the second time when I have raised this issue that the Minister mentioned relocation. What the community wants and what parents and children want is to be able to go to the facilities in their communities. It is not their fault that the buildings are crumbling. It is actually the State's fault. It is the Government's fault that those types of blocks were allowed to come onto the market and that the money they raised, got and fought for is now worthless.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Thank you, Deputy.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

It is a very clear question. This has gone on for ages. People from Letterkenny said five years ago that their building was falling down. People from Raphoe are already out of theirs and people in Ardara have a clock of about six months. There are many others.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Go raibh maith agat, a Theachta.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

I will finish now. Will there be a funding scheme that will provide 100% funding to rebuild the entire premises when they are condemned and have to be knocked to the ground?

Deputy Roderic O'Gorman

Until this year, the sole capital funding coming from my Department for early years services was for the building of new services or extensions to existing services. My Department and I, as Minister, have recognised that when a service requires major work - I am not talking about fire safety doors - there is a need for a fund to support community services. The situation outlined by Deputy Doherty, where there is going to have to be a complete rebuild, and the situation outlined by Deputy Barry, where very significant renovations are required, fall within those categories. That is why we are devising this new capital funding scheme. We are working on it. We will be in a position, in the near future, to provide details to services like the ones the Deputies outlined. We are engaging with the Cork childcare committee as well in terms of services in north Cork. This is a new stream recognising the seriousness of these matters and putting financial supports in place to enable that to be addressed.

Deputy Mick Barry

How soon?

Deputy Roderic O'Gorman

My understanding in the case of north Cork is that there is engagement between Pobal and the childcare committee on a resolution. In terms of the services Deputy Doherty raised, I will inquire with my Department on the engagement with the childcare committee. It is important to recognise the need to have flexibility and that has been recognised in the terms of the use of our capital funding. This is why a new sustainability capital fund has been introduced.

School Funding

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Táimid ag bogadh ar aghaidh anois go dtí an dara Saincheist Thráthúil. Deputies Mick Barry, Pádraig O'Sullivan agus Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire wish to discuss the lack of therapists at St. Killian's special school in Mayfield, Cork city. They have one minute and 20 seconds each.

Deputy Mick Barry

St. Killian's special school in Mayfield, County Cork, is the largest special school in all of Munster. No therapists have been in this school since 2019. Last November, the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, met a delegation from the school which included the principal. At that meeting, the Minister of State promised to make €150,000 available to the school to hire therapists. The school soon put the arrangements for this to happen in place and waited. Meanwhile, St. Killian's was told that a pilot programme returning therapists to schools would be set up and would include a number of Cork schools. St. Killian's was not included in the pilot and the school continues to be denied the €150,000 the Minister of State promised. These kids urgently need therapy to fulfil their full potential in life. The State is playing a monstrous role by actively blocking, preventing and frustrating them from fulfilling their potential. This is abuse and it has to stop. Tonight I call on the Minister of State to guarantee that moneys are released to allow the school to hire those therapists at least until such time as it can be placed on a functioning pilot programme. I stress the word "functioning" because we have not seen sight nor sound of the programme that has been launched.

Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan

I thank the Minister of State for taking this Topical Issue. I know this is an issue she has worked on in recent years. I know it is something she wants to bring to a resolution. I also acknowledge that without her intervention, I do not think we would even have the pilot scheme that is in place. That needs to be put on the record.

As outlined by Deputy Barry, St. Killian's is a very progressive school. It has more than 100 children with a huge, complex range of needs and there is a diverse range of needs in the school.

It was obviously anticipated at the outset that St. Killian's would be in the pilot scheme project. That, obviously, has not transpired and there is inevitable disappointment there.

It is my understanding that the second tranche of schools - I believe there are ten - is due to be announced by the end of October. What I am asking is that the Minister of State, Mr. Bernard Gloster and Mr. Bernard O'Regan consider bringing forward that deadline of the end of October by a number of weeks to give those parents, these children and the school management the reassurance that they will have a chance of being in that intake. As the Minister of State will be aware, and as Deputy Barry outlined, St. Killian's has a shovel-ready proposal. It could go in the morning if it was included in the subsequent scheme and I would urge the Minister of State to consider bringing that deadline forward.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

First, I apologise on behalf of Deputy Gould, who was included in this but who is sick with the flu and cannot make it. I, Deputy Barry, Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan and several others, including Deputy Gould, were at a meeting in St. Killian's last week. It was a powerful meeting. Parents should not have to be in this situation but they gave us such testimony about the difference that therapies would make to their children. The reality is they are being denied the opportunity to reach their full potential. The opportunity for these children to reach their full potential is being taken away from them.

It has been a sorry saga. They were given a commitment that if they went away and found the therapists, the money would be there. It is not ideal to be relying on the private sector but the reality is that that offer was on the table. They have done the work. They have found the therapists. Clearly, there is no principled objection to the use of private therapists on the part of the Department. That being the case, why can funding not be released to this school, whether in the pilot scheme or otherwise? The therapists are there. They are waiting to go into this school to give these children the therapies they deserve.

Minister of State at the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth (Deputy Anne Rabbitte)

I thank the Deputies for raising this important issue for discussion. As Minister of State with responsibility for disabilities, I remain fully committed to the continued development and enhancement of our children’s disability services. This includes school-based therapy supports for special schools, including St. Killian’s in Cork and across the country. I met with the principal, as the Deputies outlined, and a number of parents from St. Killian’s late last year and, at that stage, we discussed providing funding to the school to hire therapists as a way to get clinicians into the school. I still stand over that. Concerns were raised with this approach by both the HSE and the Department of Education, and over a series of Cabinet committee discussions, this proposal evolved into the pilot announced by me, the Minister, Deputy O’Gorman, the Minister, Deputy Foley, and the Minister of State, Deputy Naughton, last month. I most certainly had hoped that St. Killian’s would be part of the initial six schools announced but, unfortunately, this decision was not something within my gift alone. I had hoped for that, based on exactly what Deputy Barry said that it is the largest special school in Munster. The initial six special schools selected to participate in the pilot were chosen following detailed engagement between the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth, the Department of Education, the HSE and the NCSE. The Department of Education identified and suggested schools for inclusion in phase 1 of the pilot based on educational need and detailed engagement undertaken by the Department of Education over recent years. The HSE then confirmed the six schools for inclusion in phase 1, from those suggested. The programme will be provided by the HSE’s children’s disability network teams, CDNTs, in 16 special schools, commencing in Cork and Dublin, and will be supported by the NCSE. The purpose of the programme is to provide the effective delivery of in-school therapy supports to children and will supplement existing services being provided through the CDNTs.

I fully recognise that there are many deserving schools who support children with complex needs and it is vitally important to note that an additional ten special schools will come on board on a phased basis during 2024-2025. To answer Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan, I will certainly ask if they can be brought forward. Special schools not included in the initial phase of the pilot, which includes St. Killian’s, will be considered for selection as part of the next phase. It is anticipated that the additional ten schools will be identified by the end of October with a view to commencing those to progress in January 2025.

School selection will be based on where the needs profile of the children identified as greatest from an educational and health perspective, and where resourcing is not currently available in proportion to these needs. Regarding the provision of private therapies for children with disabilities, the Government and I remain supportive of the use of available private capacity, and the funding of same. This is only possible for schools as part of the pilot. The HSE will continue to prioritise the recruitment of remaining therapists to work in special schools.

Only today, I met with the HSE CEO, Mr. Bernard Gloster. He met with the relevant stakeholders - the REOs, the chief officers, the heads of services, the CEOs of the lead agencies, the CDNTs, HR, finance and the national integration access team - to ensure that it was clearly and unambiguously set out to everyone on that call that the pilot is a decision of Government and, as a public service, it is for implementation. This requires the same level of service to be in place in the schools by the end of the month. He set out to the REOs and all managers that it is non-negotiable.

Deputy Mick Barry

Last November, the Minister of State made a promise and she has not delivered on that promise. The Minister of State owes this school. The Minister of State owes these children. They have an ask and I am asking the Minister of State to reply to this. They are asking for sufficient funding to hire the therapists even if it is only for a few months before the Minister of State gets them into the pilot scheme. They do not want to be left hanging in limbo. Maybe there will be a pilot scheme. Maybe there will be something in January. They are asking for the funds now to hire the therapists. They are ready to go. If they are in the pilot scheme, it is fair enough to take it from there. If the Minister of State's answer to that question is "No", how long is she asking this school and these children to wait?

Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan

I seek one point of clarification from the script the Minister of State read. It surrounds the provision of private therapies. Towards the end of the Minister of State's script it states that she remains supportive of the use of available private capacity, and the funding of same. Obviously, that is attached to the proviso that those schools which have the chance of getting private therapists would need to be in the pilot. That goes back to the fundamental point in my opening remarks where I asked whether we can bring the date forward for the next tranche of schools. I would hope and anticipate that St. Killian's will be among those ten schools that will be brought forward. If we bring forward the date, that would give it the capacity in the interim to employ those private therapists, as it is trying to do. I urge the bringing forward of the deadline. It is imperative.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

In this place, we understand one needs good governance, schemes and structures but, as the parents have said, there used to be therapists. Until 2019, there were therapists in the school. What they also said, as did the staff and the children, is that they were given a commitment and told to go away and find the therapists. How do we find a way forward in relation to this? How do we make good the commitment that was made? I accept it was made in good faith, things happened, etc. Nonetheless, a commitment was made. We need to make good on that.

Clearly, there is no principled objection to using private capacity. Is the Minister of State saying that if the school is in the pilot, it can use private capacity? That being the case, will the school be in a position to get therapists as soon as it is included in the pilot, and will the Minister of State be able to provide funding to it?

Deputy Anne Rabbitte

I take it the Deputies are all asking the same question, and "Yes" is the answer. I repeat that, in regard to the provision of private therapies for children with disabilities, the Government and I remain supportive of the use of available private capacity, and the funding of same. This is only possible for schools which are part of the pilot. We will name the ten additional schools by the end of October. The funding will be provided for private capacity to be used and I commit to that.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

October or January?

Deputy Anne Rabbitte

It will be announced in October, but I can bring that forward.

My understanding from meeting the principal and the delegates who came before me was that they have something ready to roll and are able to access private capacity-----

Deputy Mick Barry

So the Minister of State can hire from October-----

Deputy Anne Rabbitte

Let us be clear. If they are successful in coming through the pilot at the end of October and I am supportive of funding private therapist capacity, I will request that it is brought forward, as opposed to waiting until October.

Road Projects

Deputy Danny Healy-Rae

I am glad to get the opportunity to raise again the proposed Killarney bypass. I have raised this matter several times in this Chamber since I was elected to it in 2016. The Minister was in the Black Valley in Kerry last Friday. It was good to see a Minister in the Black Valley because it is a very remote place and we are glad that connectivity has improved with the launch of broadband in that area.

We need continued funding in this year's infrastructure investment programme to deliver the long-awaited Killarney bypass from Lissyviggen to Farranfore and from Lissyviggen to Castlelough on the Muckross Road. The safety of motorists is being compromised daily at the existing junctions at Coolcaslagh, Ballycasheen, Lewis Road and Aghadoe. Houdini would do well to escape and get on to the N22 at the bottom of Aghadoe. People's lives are in their hands daily trying to cross that road with cars coming out from Killarney as well. Coolgarriv, Farranfore, Gortnacurra and Fieries junction come on to the N22.

Many of the roads into Killarney are dedicated car parks. Every morning, the Tralee road from Dunrine to the Cleeny roundabout is bumper to bumper, with fierce delays. People coming down from Aghadoe cannot even get into the line of traffic at the bottom of Madam's Hill. It is backed up to Knockasarnet, Caragh and Aghadoe. Most days, cars are parked up as far as the railway crossing coming into Killarney from the Cork Road on the N22 out to the railway crossing, jammed at the Lissyviggen roundabout with people trying to exit on to the N22 coming from Barraduff off the N72. Mission Road is constantly bumper to bumper all day every day. It is a dedicated car park from Cliffords' football pitch entrance to Ballydowney, and up Hans Liebherr Road to the Cleeny roundabout is bumper to bumper every evening from 4.30 p.m. to 6.30 p.m. Many evenings from 4.30 until after 6, the ring road from the Cleeny roundabout to the O'Shea roundabout and the Park Road roundabout is bumper to bumper, and people are so frustrated trying to get through to go the Cork Road to Barraduff. Thousands of visitors to Muckross House and the lakes of Killarney use the bumpiest road from Abbey Cross to Kenmare Place on top of all the people from Kenmare and Sneem who have to go through Killarney to get to Tralee or Limerick or further up the country and have to go around Kenmare Place instead of going across from Castlelough where the proposed bypass is to be located on to Lissyviggen and off up the country. The delay in Muckross Road is unbearable most of the time.

I demand that TII identify the preferred route next month as has been promised. As four possible routes were being assessed for many years, hundreds of acres of land have been effectively sterilised for more than 20 years. People could not get planning permission for family homes or farm buildings. They could not even build a hen house because of these four possible routes. We need to have the route defined very soon.

Minister of State at the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform (Deputy Ossian Smyth)

It was a pleasure to meet the Deputy in Killarney at the Black Valley last week when fibre broadband was being connected to the Black Valley. This is a sign of the Government's commitment to bring good infrastructure all around the country, including Kerry and Killarney. I thank the Deputy for giving a very detailed geography of the issues facing people using the existing road and the need for upgrades. This is all useful information.

The Minister for Transport has asked me to answer the question on his behalf. He has responsibility for overall policy and Exchequer funding regarding the national roads programme. Once funding arrangements have been put in place with TII under the Roads Acts and in line with the NDP, the planning, design, improvement and upgrading of individual national roads is a matter for TII in conjunction with the local authorities concerned. TII ultimately delivers the national roads programme in line with Project Ireland 2040, the national planning framework and the NDP.

The Government has earmarked €5.1 billion for capital spending on new national roads projects from 2021 to 2030 as part of the NDP. This funding will enable improved regional accessibility throughout the country as well as compact growth, which are key national strategic outcomes. The funding will provide for the development of numerous national road projects, including the completion of projects that are already at construction stage and those close to it as well as the development of a number of others. As the greater portion of this funding becomes available in the second half of the decade, this has meant there is a constraint on the funding available for new projects in 2024. However, approximately €411 million of Exchequer capital funds were provided for national roads through TII to local authorities in 2024.

Having regard to the funding constraint outlined above, it was not possible to provide an allocation to all national roads projects in the NDP for 2024. However, many new roads projects did receive funding. In addition, approximately €2.9 billion has been earmarked in the current NDP for the protection and improvement of the national road network. This funding is spread relatively evenly across the decade and will ensure the major investment that has taken place in the network in recent decades is safeguarded. It will also assist in delivering safer roads for all road users.

The N22 Killarney to Farranfore project would deliver improvements to approximately 27 km of the N22 as well as a bypass of the village of Farranfore and an outer bypass of Killarney. It is important to point out that the project remains part of the NDP and I can assure the Deputy that sufficient funding is in place to ensure the route options phase of the project will be concluded in 2024, so a preferred route will be selected in 2024 for this project. As with all national roads projects in the NDP, the delivery programme for the N22 Killarney to Farranfore project will be kept under review for 2025 and in future years and will be considered in terms of the overall funding envelope available to TII.

Deputy Danny Healy-Rae

I welcome the assertion that the route will be defined by the end of the year, it is hoped by the end of October. This defined route would mean a lot to so many people because their lands have been sterilised all these years. I am concerned because we do need €1.5 million next year. I am sorry to say the Green Party spokesperson from Kenmare said that Killarney does not need a bypass and that we already have one. We have a ring road that was built more than 40 years ago and has not even been resurfaced during that time. Well in excess of 21,000 vehicles use this ring road every day. We have a crisis in Killarney and all around it. It is hard to do business in Killarney town or even visit because you cannot get in and out of it in reasonable time. I am asking the Government and the Minister for Transport to ensure they approve €1.5 million out of the investment programme for next year to ensure phase 3 of the Killarney bypass, which is also known as the Cork-Kerry economic corridor, is delivered next year to proceed to design and environmental evaluation, to deal with landowners, to agree accommodation works, and to continue with a planning application in phase 4.

I hear what the Minister of State is saying, that it is the job of TII to progress this.

Earlier this year, when I asked Peter Walsh at a meeting of the transport committee if he had funding for phase 2 this year, he clearly answered that he did not. The money comes from the Government. The Minister of State has to recognise that. I am pleading with the Government. Killarney and the surrounding area have waited 24 years for this project. The Government is pumping a great deal of money into the proposed Adare bypass, but we have suffered this year already. The money for the road out of Killarney at Fossa was taken back to resurface the roads this year because that work had to be done. It was agreed that the Government was going to give the money but it then pulled it back. That is not fair.

Deputy Ossian Smyth

The proof that road projects are proceeding and being completed in Kerry is shown by the Listowel bypass, which was completed this summer. This year, €4.7 million was allocated for the construction of new national roads in Kerry and another €9.7 million was allocated for the improvement of the existing network. This is in addition to approximately €119 million in Exchequer capital funding which was allocated for the national road network in County Kerry between 2020 and 2023. The Deputy is right that TII is responsible for delivering the road network but the Government is the body that allocates the funding to TII and it has to work with what it is given.

Deputy Danny Healy-Rae

No money, no fun.

Deputy Ossian Smyth

Due to the funding constraints for national roads this year, a prioritisation exercise was necessary. In line with the NDP and Government policy, the Minister for Transport has allocated national roads funding for 2024 in a manner which seeks to achieve the following outcomes: protection and renewal of the existing national road network; progressing major projects in or near construction; progressing major projects which are at pre-construction but well advanced in the development pipeline; and prioritising any remaining funds for major projects which provide for local bypasses and compact growth in Ireland's towns and villages.

As the Deputy said, there is a ring road around Killarney but it is only 3 km long.

Deputy Danny Healy-Rae

That is 44 years old.

Deputy Ossian Smyth

This is a much larger project that is more than 20 km long and which goes past Farranfore, as well as Killarney. It is a much more ambitious and larger project.

Renewable Energy Generation

Deputy David Stanton

It is a given that we must reduce our reliance on fossil fuels and increase the use of renewable and low-carbon energy sources, such as wind and solar, as I am sure the Minister of State will agree. The need for solar farms across Ireland is growing. I refer to the best practice planning guidance report on large-scale solar energy development in Ireland produced with the Irish Solar Energy Association by Fehily Timoney in November last. It is a very good document. If the Minister of State has not come across it, he might take a look at it. The report states:

The need for solar farms across Ireland is growing, and a progressive and transparent planning process is fundamental in ensuring that ambitious national energy targets pertaining to renewable energies are met. The development of coherent national, regional and local policies around solar farms is a key prerequisite for growth within the renewable energy sector in Ireland. The absence of such direct policies is a concern and will further induce miscommunication and stunt the progression of such applications within the planning system.

Where there is a gap, a lack of information, a lack of policy and a lack of guidelines, we will run into problems. We have seen this previously with wind energy, which became almost a no-go area. The construction of large-scale solar farms is a relatively new development in rural Ireland. More and more rural communities are discovering that the green productive fields in their areas are being earmarked for solar farm development. The deployment of thousands of solar panels changes the visual aspect of the countryside and it can have other effects, such as on wildlife, biodiversity, flooding risk and food production.

The best practice planning guidance report, prepared in conjunction with the Irish Solar Energy Association, is very good and addresses all of those points, but the State has not done so. It is not mandatory or obligatory for any company or developer to follow these guidelines even though they should. There is a risk that the public image of solar energy could be eroded by the public response to large-scale solar farms, which have sometimes been sited insensitively. I tabled a parliamentary question last week on the possible need for specific planning guidance and guidelines for solar farms. The response indicated that the matter is being kept under review and where the need for specific planning guidance for solar farms is identified, the Department would develop such guidelines. I would argue that the time has arrived. In my area, there are a number of applications for these large farms and people are very concerned about the absence of national guidelines. More and more such farms are being put in place, in some areas covering over 400 acres of land, which is a massive area of countryside. If we wait too long, it will be too late.

Another issue is the need for proper consultation and information for local residents, and this document outlines how that should be done. It states that local politicians should be consulted but that has not happened in my area. The amount of documentation that is submitted as part of a planning application is daunting for ordinary working families to digest if they want to formulate an objection or observation, and they may need assistance with that. I ask that the guidelines include a provision for a community fund to compensate local communities to some extent for the disruption caused by the construction of large solar farms and for the impact of the change in the visual aspect of the area.

This is a serious matter. If we do not take it seriously, move on it and put in place national guidelines, I am afraid that we will run into the same problems that the wind turbine industry ran into, not to mention the issues with regard to putting up pylons to upgrade the grid. We ran into the same problems there because we left a vacuum of information and we did not engage with people. I ask the Minister of State to go back and tell the Department of housing that we need to get this in place. Each local authority has its own set of guidelines but it is ad hoc and there is no national overview. This is happening as we speak. More and more of these farms are being constructed and more and more communities are becoming concerned and are protesting, and we do not want to see that.

Deputy Ossian Smyth

The Minister for housing has asked me to take this question on his behalf. I am glad to have the opportunity to update the Members of the Dáil on the regulation of large-scale solar energy developments from a planning perspective. With regard to this specific issue, it is the case that, as with the large majority of development types, there are currently no specific planning guidelines in place in respect of solar energy developments. Proposals for individual solar energy developments are subject to the statutory requirements of the Planning and Development Act 2000, as amended, in the same manner as other proposed developments, with planning applications made to the relevant local planning authority in the first instance. In making a decision on a planning application for a solar energy development, a planning authority must consider the specific merits or otherwise of the application in line with the proper planning and sustainable development of the area, having regard to the provisions of the development plan, including any zoning objectives, any submissions or observations received from the public and the statutory consultees, and any relevant ministerial or Government policies, including any guidelines issued by the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage.

With respect to the regulation of solar energy developments more generally, the planning system plays an important role in this regard from both a policy and legislative perspective. From a planning policy perspective, the national planning framework, NPF, 2018 is the long-term strategy for the spatial development of Ireland to 2040 and provides support for renewable energy development. The NPF, which is currently being reviewed, informs a spatial hierarchy of plans that cascade to regional and local levels. The draft revised NPF includes enhanced policy support for renewable energy development, including, in particular, the introduction of regional renewable electricity capacity allocations for solar generation development to achieve the national targets set out in the Climate Action Plan 2024. Subject to final approval of the revised NPF by the Government and the Oireachtas, these allocations will be integrated into regional spatial and economic strategies, which will in turn inform city and county development plans and will lead to the identification of areas where large-scale solar energy development will be directed towards, and areas which may not be appropriate for such development.

From a planning legislation perspective, the Planning and Development Bill 2023, which is expected to be signed into law shortly, will deliver a range of measures to enhance the existing legislative framework. The Bill will provide for the alignment of the plan-making hierarchy to ensure greater consistency between national policy and local implementation, as well as provide greater certainty for stakeholders at all stages of the planning process. On this basis, the Minister is satisfied that the existing and evolving planning system provides a sufficiently robust policy and legislative framework for the regulation of large-scale solar energy development.

Deputy David Stanton

I thank the Minister of State for his response. Basically, he is saying there are no guidelines and no plans to develop any, yet this whole industry is developing at a very fast pace.

The UK Government has said it will seek the large-scale deployment of ground-mounted solar on brownfield industrial and low- or medium-grade agricultural land, being quite clear that poor-quality land should be used in preference to high-quality agricultural land. What is the Minister of State's view on that?

Another matter I want to bring up is something alluded to by the Minister here when he talked about the introduction of regional renewable electricity capacity allocations. That is the issue of dispatch down and curtailments where renewable energy cannot be used due to power system or local network limitations known as constraints. I understand that hundreds of megawatts of energy are being lost to the system due to dispatch down, so we urgently need to upgrade the grid.

A question then arises as to whether producers of renewable energy from solar farms who have to waste the energy produced are compensated by the State for lost income. If so, can the Minister of State let me know now or later how much was paid last year, and to date this year, and the amount projected to be paid in 2024? I am told it could be a very substantial amount, possibly up to a couple of hundred million euro, under the electricity regulations and part of the Clean energy for all Europeans package. If compensation is being paid for energy not being used, does this lead to higher costs for the consumer, both businesses and homes? Should we be allowing the addition of more very large-scale generation capacity if the grid cannot take it and this leads to higher costs, albeit indirectly, to the consumer? Another issue could be the consideration in any national guidelines of the construction of large-scale solar farms.

A small point I came across in the context of another matter is that there is no State guidance as to the maximum permissible noise levels that may be generated during the construction of a solar farm. That is another issue.

There are multiple issues here but the one relating to dispatch down is one on which I would like the Minister of State, if he does not have the information now, to get that information and bring it to me as soon as possible. It is really serious and it is linked to all of this.

Deputy Ossian Smyth

I thank the Deputy. The answer indicates the Department of housing has no plans to introduce more specific guidelines on how solar farms should be developed. The Deputy asked about that. The Department is saying it is bringing in regional capacity allocations. In other words, these are projections for the amount of solar power we have produced in each region of Ireland. Those are to be used to flow down to county development plans and so on. There is a path for predicting how much solar energy will be generated and the national planning framework will be used to make planning decisions. It does specify the quantum.

The Deputy asked about the quality of land that is being used and whether it should be high or low quality. I do not believe there are guidelines on that.

The Deputy also asked about curtailment and, specifically, how much money has been paid out in compensation payments as a result of curtailment. This is straying from his original question but I am happy to find him an answer. This will not be from the Department of housing but, rather, from the Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan, in his capacity as Minister with responsibility for energy. Curtailment is solved by having a better grid and better subsea connections to other countries in order that we can balance our grid better. We are putting greater strain on the grid all of the time by changing the nature of it. We used to have a very small number of generators that generated power and it all flowed in one direction. Now electricity is flowing in both directions and we are adding 100 extra homes every day which are generating their own solar power and sending it back up the grid in another direction. Clearly, the grid is changing from a hierarchy or tree into a network arrangement. We are planning to connect all of our 37 GW of offshore wind, all of which will place additional strain on the grid. That requires billions of euro of investment by EirGrid, as is the case across Europe. There is a Europe-wide plan to invest billions of euro in every country to strengthen the grid and that is part of climate action and the electrification of the grid. EirGrid's future capacity statements are published every year and Deputy Stanton can see whether he considers that they have a reasonable and credible path to the future.

Cuireadh an Dáil ar athló ar 11.14 p.m. go dtí 9 a.m., Déardaoin, an 19 Meán Fómhair 2024.

The Dáil adjourned at 11.14 p.m. until 9 a.m. on Thursday, 19 September 2024.