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JOINT COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE AND FOOD debate -
Tuesday, 23 Sep 2003

Vol. 1 No. 22

One-off Housing: Presentation.

Are the minutes agreed? Agreed. I welcome Mr. Frank Corcoran and Mr. James Nix of An Taisce who agreed to return before a meeting of the joint committee following their appearance on 16 July. At that meeting there was a number of questions which, due to time constraints were not responded to. In that context, Mr. Corcoran agreed to return to the joint committee. Mr. Corcoran is aware of the questions he has been asked to respond to.

Before he commences, I wish to draw his attention to the fact that while members of the committee have absolute privilege, the same privilege does not apply to him. Members are reminded of the long standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Mr. Frank Corcoran

I propose to deal with some general points which occurred after I made my own submission. I will then deal with individual points in response to Deputies and Senators.

The restrictions on rural housing are contained in the first instance in the development plans made by county councillors and not by An Taisce. They, in turn, are subject to the national spatial strategy which contains restrictions and is made by the Government and not An Taisce. That strategy, in turn, is subject, under Article 29 of the Constitution, to our EU commitments such as the various landscape directives, the groundwater directive and drinking water directive, all of which were adopted by the Government and not An Taisce. Quite specific restrictions on rural housing were promulgated by the rainbow coalition in the sustainable development strategy for Ireland document of 1997. This document was adopted and not amended by the following Fianna Fáil-Progressive Democrat-Independent coalition Government when it put the Treaty of Amsterdam to a referendum in 1998 and asked people to endorse the concept of sustainable development on a full legal footing binding the Irish Government. Before that, it was just a policy but, once it was adopted, the idea was that it would bind the Government. It was open to that Government to change the strategy in regard to rural one-off housing prior to the referendum but it chose not to do so.

A number of Deputies have questioned An Taisce's reference to An Bord Pleanála on the grounds of groundwater protection. The European Court of Justice in Luxembourg has already issued a judgment against Ireland because of our failure to protect drinking water to existing rural dwellers because of the proliferation of septic tanks, which the local authorities do not have the resources to monitor.

The European Commission has threatened to withdraw all agricultural grants from Ireland as a result of our failure to protect groundwater. The Government states that 20% of our groundwater has been contaminated by nitrates and a third of single wells have been contaminated by bacteriological coliforms and 42% of group water schemes have been contaminated by coliforms. The Government pleaded with the EU for a year's grace in order to put in a groundwater protection plan and on that basis, the threat to withdraw all agricultural subsidies was withdrawn. However, given that 90% of all farm income in Ireland comes in the form of cheque from the EU taxpayer, shortly to be the Irish taxpayer, it would be irresponsible in the extreme to threaten that economic basis to the rural economy by continuing to put pressure on groundwater resources which the local authorities acknowledge they do not have the resources to monitor.

Deputy Timmins's original submission continues to mis-state An Taisce's policy.

We have never suggested that rural development should be confined to agriculturally based applicants. Our policy has always specifically recognised essential social need and other land based activities. An Taisce never tells people what is good for them. Our submissions to local authorities and An Bord Pleanála are always based on the development plans made by local councillors, Government policy and EU legislation adopted by Government.

In response to Deputy Upton's point, the protection of groundwater cannot be left to builders. Her statement that there would not be any implications of a health risk to the existing population is contradicted by the European Court of Justice judgment which states otherwise and by the MC O'Sullivan report of May 2002 for the Central Fisheries Board, which acknowledges the existence of that risk. Her statement that monitoring of septic tanks should be minimal runs counter to the ECJ judgment and the MC O'Sullivan report. In Germany, there is an annual inspection fee on septic tanks. Deputy Ferris's references to the pure flow system as a solution for protecting the water table is not accepted by the MC O'Sullivan report, which identified particular problems with the system in holiday homes which are used erratically, and it further states that it is not suitable for certain ground conditions, so there are some situations in which it is not suitable, and An Bord Pleanála has quite often recognised that fact in its judgments.

Deputy Carty suggested that An Taisce should go back to preserving our heritage and keep out of the planning process. However, one can only protect our heritage, including our water resources and landscapes, through the planning process. Senator Callanan states that county councils are competent to protect groundwater and also that septic tanks are not responsible for pollution. The ECJ judgment and most recent Government reports on groundwater, such as Making Ireland's Development Sustainable, from July 2002, state otherwise. I repeat that it is the European Court of Justice and the Irish Government which state that septic tanks are causing groundwater pollution, not An Taisce - we are not the source of that information.

Deputy Wilkinson referred to a particular planning application. An Bord Pleanála ruled on 15 September that the proposal would be prejudicial to public health and adversely affect a special area of conservation whose protection is an EU requirement. He also refers to An Taisce as a group of serial objectors, which is untrue. We are a prescribed body under legislation and it is our function to refer appropriate cases to An Bord Pleanála, which we do in four out of every thousand applications. An Bord Pleanála upholds more than 90% of our objections, generally on the grounds of public health and public safety. I am sure that nobody here would advocate compromise on such fundamental issues. He also suggests that speculative sales of sites should be allowed. However, Government policy as expressed in the national spatial strategy clearly precludes this. Further, he suggests that An Taisce's actions result in people leaving rural Ireland. The truth is to the contrary. I personally lobbied during the 1990s for the adoption of a regional strategy to repopulate rural towns, villages and areas and to revitalise their schools, post offices and other infrastructure. It has always been our policy to move development away from the magnet of Dublin and into the rest of the country.

Senator Scanlon advocates speculative site sales to boost farm incomes, but again, Government policy, through the national spatial strategy, precludes this. His assertion that there is no danger posed to people living in rural areas by septic tanks is contradicted by the ECJ judgment and MC O'Sullivan report and also by various judgments of An Bord Pleanála. Deputy Ó Fearghaíl stated that An Taisce supported Kildare County Council's rural policy. All appeals by An Taisce relating to Kildare are in support of the county council's development plan, made by the county councillors. His reference to a suicide following a marital break-up omitted to clarify that Kildare County Council's professional planner recommended that the application be refused or resubmitted in the name of another family member. The Deputy also criticised An Taisce for not objecting to a particular one-off house application. As I said before, we only object to a limited number. It is open to the Deputy to put in his own objection if he feels it is merited.

Deputy Blaney advocates abandoning restrictions on opening new entrances on national primary and secondary routes with speed limits of 60 mph. These restrictions emanate from a Government agency, the National Roads Authority, on public safety grounds. There have been a number of fatalities as a result of inappropriately sited entrances countrywide, regardless of the condition of the road itself. Deputy Bruton states that some appeals are vexatious. No An Taisce appeal has ever been dismissed as being vexatious. In fact, the chairman of An Bord Pleanála told the Oireachtas Committee of Public Accounts that An Taisce only refers to it the more blatant breaches of development plans and Government and EU policy. He also asks us to rely on the professionalism of the planning board to do the job. However, An Bord Pleanála cannot intervene unless a reference is made to it by a prescribed body or a third party. An Bord Pleanála upholds more than 90% of An Taisce's appeals. The Deputy suggests that An Taisce appeals divert local authority human resources. However, there are no oral hearings in relation to one-off housing appeals; therefore they do not unduly tie up local authority staff resources. If local authorities complied with planning guidelines there would be even fewer appeals. In fact, in some local authority areas in Ireland there are very few appeals from An Taisce.

An Taisce is in favour of social sustainability. Our policy provides for essential social need yet our policy also accommodates people who wish to live near families, elderly relations and so on. In relation to transport emissions, although emissions of lead to the air are down, according to the Government, because of better car exhaust systems and so on, the fastest rising greenhouse gas emissions are from transport. We will have to pay more than €1.3 billion to Britain, for example, under the Kyoto Protocol because of our failure to meet our Kyoto commitments. That represents an unnecessary net loss of money to the country. The Deputy suggested we should picket Moneypoint. We will not be picketing the plant, but we have appealed the application to extend the burning of coal on the grounds that it breaches the national climate change strategy published by the then Minister for the Environment and Local Government, DeputyDempsey, in 2000.

In relation to the impact of one-off rural housing, the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government has identified the cumulative impact and has accordingly initiated restrictions. Again, there is a cumulative impact from the proliferation of septic tanks. Deputy Bruton mentioned alternative rural enterprises. Any activity allowed by the development plan and the spatial strategy that does not put pressure on the road infrastructure seems to be appropriate. I have been asked on many occasions by rural dwellers to assist them in objecting to large industrial activities in their midst when, they said, the roads could not accommodate them, and I have always facilitated them in that regard. However, I can foresee that a farmer, for example, might want to put a lathe into an outhouse as an alternative enterprise. Since that would not necessarily generate a huge amount of traffic movement, it could very well fit in with the spatial strategy or with the development plan in relation to the siting of industry and so on. However, we do not wish to give a list as such; we are merely giving the parameters that have been laid down in order to answer Deputy Bruton's questions.

To return to Deputy Timmins's later questions, An Taisce has never advocated confining rural housing needs to agricultural projects. Politicians are welcome to be members of An Taisce, but elected politicians and electoral candidates are barred from officership positions locally and nationally. We always invite politicians from both Government and Opposition to make presentations at the Green Flag awards in schools, the Blue Flag awards for beaches and so on and they are always happy to do so. In fact, we have had considerable support from political parties for our forthcoming conferences on CAP reform and heritage legislation accompanying our annual general meeting in Kilkenny.

Deputy Timmins mentioned an identifiable person outside this House. That puts me at a disadvantage because I do not enjoy privilege and I have taken on board what the Chairman said about that. The Deputy referred to a press conference given by An Taisce involving a person who is identifiable as a result because it related to Glen Ding woods. That local authority councillor is not a member of An Taisce and An Taisce has appealed section 4 motions tabled by him. The press conference was about an archaeological site and not only did the councillor help us to preserve it, he put his own property at risk in taking a court action against the county manager. He secured a judgment against him which forced the manager to give information to him, the chairman of the county council, at that time. It is not surprising that he should be involved, then, in a press conference on that issue because his involvement was as fundamental as that of An Taisce.

The equivalent of section 4 motions under the new Act were mentioned. Deputy Timmins said six or seven were passed by an independent councillor in Ms Corcoran's area who has been diametrically opposed to the policy of An Taisce and five of them were appealed. He said that he had submitted three applications himself. I cannot deal with such situations because all these section 4 applications were made by all three local councillors in the electoral area and passed by at least 18 county councillors. We cannot identify them as being one person's section 4. In County Wicklow, section 4 motions must be passed by 18 out of 24 councillors and must be proposed by all of the local councillors so there is no distinction between them.

Deputy Timmins stated that another identified individual submitted incorrect information regarding at least one planning application in County Wicklow, saying that he entered into conversation with the applicant and had obtained information from a local source and gave a reference number. That was not a question of inaccurate information given to An Taisce but insufficient information on the planning file itself and the planning officer at An Taisce works from the planning file. It arose because the applicant had insufficient information on the file but, after the applicant clarified it with An Taisce, we did not appeal it.

Deputy Joe Callanan said that we were presented with a draft plan 18 months ago that almost ensured there would be no one-off housing. That is not true; that draft plan did not include such a restriction. The Planning Acts require the local authority to prepare a plan and for the elected members to adopt it. He stated that the elected members prepared their own plan.

Deputy Callanan also stated that while septic tanks are a problem, high phosphate detergents are used in washing machines and if they were banned water quality would improve 10% overnight and he asked why An Taisce does not pursue that issue. We have pursued it, we have given an award to a professional cleaner who uses non-toxic and non-phosphate cleaning materials, a practice we have recognised and encouraged in many submissions.

Senator White acknowledged that she is a member of An Taisce and dealt with its policy. The policy of An Taisce was promulgated over the course of two years and was approved by the council of An Taisce and the involvement of all members was invited in its formulation. There is no restriction on politicians being members of An Taisce but there are, however, restrictions on their being officers of it.

Cryptosporidium, a coliform that has killed abroad and which has now arrived in Ireland, is prevalent in the rural environment and it is difficult for single wells to deal with it by chlorination. It is easier to deal with the threat of cryptosporidium from public supplies than from private, single supplies.

Deputy Ferris asked if the four objections in every 1,000 included serial objectors. When I gave that figure, I said that we may appeal four decisions out of every 1,000 to An Bord Pleanála.

Senator Scanlon raised questions about groundwater and effluent treatment in water cleansing systems. If they are installed in inappropriate ground conditions or to incorrect specifications and not properly maintained, they cause a risk.

Deputy Blaney states that the EPA produced statistics that demonstrate that the northern and western regions do not have high nitrate levels, making out that my point is farcical. The Government states that 83% of nitrates pollution is caused by agricultural activity and that 20% of groundwater is polluted nationally in that way.

Deputy Ó Fearghaíl asked a specific question about commercial developments. He gave the example of a major retail development with a residential component with attached conditions, stating that there are more conditions attached to one-off housing. My only answer is that is a matter for Kildare County Council, not An Taisce.

The Chairman asked about people being allowed to sell sites. The sale of sites for speculative purposes is not allowed under Government policy as spelt out in the national spatial strategy. He also referred to the High Court action taken against Meath County Council for breach of the strategic planning guidelines for the greater Dublin area. In that judgment, the court acknowledged that Meath County Council had breached the strategic planning guidelines but that case was not taken by An Taisce, it had nothing to do with it.

Senator Peter Callanan raised the issue of a holiday development on the Beara Peninsula. An Bord Pleanála turned that development down on a number of grounds. The Senator asked me to visit the site but the planning officer for An Taisce had already visited the site and objected to the revised application on a number of grounds.

The Chairman also asked me to visit that site and, in deference to the Chairman, I agreed to do so. I went down to meet the developer and his architects and I pointed out three flaws in the development in relation to its visual impact from Berehaven, which is a major issue with An Bord Pleanála. I suggested a manner in which this could be dealt with, which the developer accepted. He is to send me revised proposals and maps before he resubmits it. He asked that I look at it beforehand and I said I would do so. The developer accepts that the revised application still has problems that have not met with the requirements of An Bord Pleanála when it refused the original one. That covers all the points which were raised, and Mr. Nix may also wish to cover some specific points.

Would Mr. Corcoran have a copy of that?

Mr. Corcoran

No, I did not make a full copy of it and just took some notes. It was just a continuation of the ad hoc responses that I was making on the last day. I gave an original submission, which the committee has, and I then just offered responses to questions arising.

Have we no hope of getting a copy today of Mr. Corcoran's replies so that we could photocopy them and give them to committee members?

Mr. Corcoran

Everything I have said will be the Official Report anyway.

Committee members might want to go through them in order to follow up with questions. That was the only reason I asked.

Mr. Corcoran

I did not have a typed up version of the original. I noticed a few typos in my own version, which would not be available.

That is all right. Does Mr. Nix wish to come in?

Mr. James Nix

I do have a contribution——

You are not answering any of the questions.

Mr. Nix

Yes, there is one specific question I am looking at from early July. Do you wish me to go ahead with that, Chairman?

Yes, you might as well.

Mr. Corcoran

The specific question related to costs. I was asked by Deputy Moynihan to address the increased costs. It was something I had referred to in my submission. I will hand out two documents to committee members; the first is an article I wrote about a week ago which summarises a 1976 report. I did not photocopy all of the 1976 report but I do have extracts from it. I shall provide a little of the background to the report first. The report is called Urban Generated Housing in Rural Areas. Six pages of that are provided, followed by the article. Members have pages one and two of the An Foras Forbartha report, a summary of costs on page 60 and a summary of what pertains in Canada on pages 62 and 63. As the committee can see from page one, 1976 is the publication date, and An Foras Forbartha explains why it undertook this study. The need for such a study arose from the general belief that an inordinate amount of local authority staff time is consumed dealing with planning applications for single detached houses required by urban generated dwellers in rural areas. That is noted in the first paragraph of page one.

That is the background report. The specific findings are outlined on page 60. There are three columns on page 60. The one on the far right represents 15-foot frontage and the one on the far left 189-foot frontage; in metres, the 15 feet equals five metres and the 189 feet equals 58 metres. What the report has essentially done is compare a house like one, say, on Home Farm Road in Dublin, an urban house five metres across, with what it found to be the average length of a site, about 58 metres. That is roughly what we are dealing with in those two columns.

Members can see in my handwriting at the top of the page the increased costs of the column on the far left compared to the one on the far right. I will flesh those out a little more. Some of the figures have been updated and some have not. If we start with the first, mail delivery, it was found that in the widely dispersed housing, the cost per year was £5.25. In the compact housing, those with a five metre frontage, the equivalent figure was £1.50. Thus, it was three and a half times more expensive to deliver the mail to widely dispersed housing.

That was followed up in 1993 with an internal study by An Post. That found that the gap has actually widened and that it is now fourtimes more expensive to deliver in rural areas than——

What has the frontage got to do with the cost of mail delivery?

I wondered that myself. I do not think these issues have any bearing on a person looking for a rural house.

The houses all have the same length of driveway.

I ask Mr. Nix to proceed but notto dwell too long on this because I do not think what he is talking about really has any bearing on——

Mr. Nix

I am responding specifically to a question from Deputy Moynihan. That is the reason I returned to this. One of the reasons it is more expensive in rural areas, for example, is that there are often quite long driveways, so the postman would drive up one driveway, step out of his car, put the mail into the letter box, step back in, drive down and then back up the driveway of the neighbouring house.

What about roadside post boxes at the end of the lanes?

Mr. Nix

Roadside post boxes were rejected this year by the regulator. An Post has been banned from putting them in. There would have been a multi-million euro saving but An Post has not been allowed to do it. Contrast that with a postman on his bike who leaves the heavy parcels on the bike. He can then take mail in his hands for five to ten houses, walk from door to door and pop mail into each box. One begins to get an idea of the kind of monetary savings that can be achieved. If one was to take an apartment block with, for example, 40 mail boxes right beside one another, mail could obviously be delivered much faster. The figures given for both 1976 and 1993 are obviously averages, but the results we are getting indicate that mail delivery in rural areas is three and a half to four times more expensive.

If we turn to the cost of bin collections, there is a more——

(Interruptions).

Mr. Nix

Excuse me, I was specifically asked in early July to return to this and talk about the costs because I made statements regarding the individual infrastructure costs——

I decide what is discussed at these meetings. We asked the witnesses in to talk about the objections An Taisce has to once-off housing. Deputy Moynihan might have asked a question but I do not think he asked that particular question. I would like Mr. Nix to tell the committee about the cost to a young couple in rural Ireland of having to go into a town or city to buy a site when they can provide a site for themselves at zero cost. That is the cost I would like him to be able to throw out. These are the things that we, as public representatives, are very concerned about - people in rural Ireland who are trying to provide a home for themselves and who can get a site from their parents, uncle, aunt or local farmer at a reasonable cost. Those are the things about which we are concerned, not the cost of a postman delivering mail to a house or of putting electricity into a house or providing any other services to that house.

On a point of order: would it be in order to look at the costs imposed on the State by different forms of development?

No. That is a matter for the Joint Committee on the Environment and Local Government.

We are not allowed look at the costs——

We are talking about once-off rural housing. That is why we invited these people here.

My understanding is that we sought to examine the costs that would be imposed on the State by such housing provisions.

That is not a matter for this committee. The committee does not want Mr. Nix to continue in the manner in which he is going. I will take supplementary questions.

From my perspective, coming from a rural area——

Is this on a point of order?

It is just a comment. This committee is trying to make it easier for people in rural areas to get planning permission. These are people who could very easily, and possibly should, put their names on a council housing list to be housed by the State but because of the generosity of a parent or other relative, they are able to acquire a site. With the help of their friends who work in the building trade, block layers, plumbers, plasterers and so on, they get a house and put a roof over their heads. They are the people about whom we are concerned.

I would like to thank the President of An Taisce and Mr. Corcoran and Mr. Nix for coming back here today. They stated that An Taisce's policy is not that one-off rural housing should be solely associated with agriculture. At our last meeting I had a submission handed in by one of An Taisce's planners to the Wicklow county development plan on 28 April which stated broadly that housing in rural areas should be restricted to those primarily involved in agriculture, horticulture or land based local enterprises. I do not have the submission with me today. The witnesses can clarify this later. It is not my intention to engage in conflict with them. In the case of the farming family that has more than one child, as is very often the case, where one of the children operates on the farm and builds a house, what happens to the other family members? Does An Taisce believe they should be allowed to build in the vicinity of the farm if, for example, they work in the town, in the bank or wherever?

Mr. Corcoran

Our policy also goes on to say——

Mr. Corcoran can come in later. I have no problem with any politician or anyone working in conjunction with An Taisce. Believe it or not, some of my friends are members of An Taisce. However, I am concerned that some people use An Taisce as a cover. People should be open and frank. One of An Taisce's annual reports, in 2000 or 2001, stated that one of the ways in which people could help An Taisce was by standing for election. I do not have the time to read daily newspapers but I have never been aware of any politician or councillor saying that he or she was campaigning on the An Taisce ticket. I have no difficulty with someone doing that but if a person is doing that he or she should be up front about it. I am concerned that An Taisce might be brought into disrepute by people who would be misinforming it or using the organisation for vexatious reasons. The witnesses have answered the vexatious questions.

With regard to section 4 motions in west Wicklow the witnesses have put forward a plausible explanation and I am not going to pursue the topic. It is unusual, however, that one person who proposes seven or eight developments has no appeals, whereas someone else who proposes six or seven has five appeals. On the law of averages that seems unique. I take the witnesses at their word but I would not like to play blackjack with the person who was the subject of those appeals.

It is important to realise that most people are reasonable in regard to planning but some people do attempt to paint An Taisce as the evil doer. Perhaps it was a Labour member who labelled as a cash crop for farmers the fact that people want to build everywhere in the countryside. That is not the case. There has been such an emphasis on the An Taisce concept over several years that there is a backlash as is evidenced by what has happened in Wexford. I have not looked at the Wexford draft plan as passed but based on the reports I have read I would oppose the concept that has been pushed there. The people in rural areas whom it seeks to protect will be the ones who suffer and I hope Wexford County Council will revisit its plan. If the same strategy were to be implemented in Wicklow anyone from Bray or Wicklow town could build in a line between Laragh and Roundwood. There is no demand from society for that and there certainly is no demand for it from people in the area.

If such a plan evolves, I am concerned that with the advent of local elections when the development plans come up for consideration the councillors will come under pressure to open it up. If counties follow the line that Wexford proposes a fictitious demand will be created which will cause difficulties and we will have to go back to the other extreme. There has to be a happy medium. An Taisce does place great store by county development plans as the basis for objections and so on. One of the conflicts for councillors, which I have sought to address, is that there should be annexes or appendices to the development plans to show exactly what the councillors mean when they pass a certain aspect of the plan because the planners' interpretation causes serious difficulty. This is the cause of this excessive response to the problem.

I am not sure if the Wexford plan is a draft plan or whether it has been passed but if it is passed where would An Taisce stand because the permissions would be granted as per the development plan and the plan in its current form is unsustainable? In Wicklow we have a constant problem with planning. Although it may not be politically opportune for me to say so, the issue is that in many rural areas people do get the planning permission. However, they may not get it exactly where they want it. The council may try to put them beside the farmyard when they want to move away from the yard or vice versa. They might want a view, but the council might want them in the hollow. The biggest difficulty is people who live in the towns but due to the price of housing there wish to move a half mile out of the town or whatever. That is not sustainable because if everyone does that there will be a problem.

There has to be some reasonable approach. Development must have different policies. We have classifications for areas of outstanding natural beauty and so on. For example, in Wicklow holiday homes are not allowed within those areas yet the greatest demand for planning permission is in those areas. The county councils and local authorities will have to look at creating different policies for different areas. I can only cite Wicklow as a microcosm of the country with a mix of poor and wealthy and urbanised areas. There are areas in Wicklow where the population is declining and that needs to be recognised by the development plan as it is in the national spatial strategy. North Meath and south-west Wicklow are identified within the mid-east region.

I am concerned that in the attempt to address these issues both sides of the argument go to the extremes rather than try to find a sensible approach in the middle.

Nothing of what I have heard at our last meeting or today will convince me that An Taisce really understands where politicians are coming from on this issue. We are trying to voice the problems of our constituents. Only yesterday I made a list of 60 people with whom I am currently dealing about one-off housing in South Tipperary. Many will be turned down who have applications before the council because the decision may not go their way.

I still have a desperate fear that An Taisce does not understand the needs of those individuals who, for many good reasons, want to live in rural Ireland - they may have grown up there or some of them lived in the cities and now, because of certain measures, they are not allowed return and build houses for themselves. I can understand An Taisce's concerns in many other areas but it lacks the human touch when it comes to the individual looking to build a house. Nothing in the presentation today or the previous day convinces me there is the human touch in their argument. I cannot accept the views of anybody, public or otherwise, who does not have a human touch when dealing with this matter. I ask An Taisce as a national organisation to look at the human side.

In regard to the development plan in which An Taisce put a lot of store, it is the councils that adopt that plan but the reality is that they are constrained by rules and regulations from the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. In South Tipperary County Council we are currently going through our development plan and we are almost there. I welcome what the Taoiseach has said but that is something for another day and it is something we need to address. There is no point adopting county development plans over the next few months while we are still waiting to hear something from the Taoiseach. Is something going to happen at Government level? This needs to be addressed urgently. I will go further and say that if I were a member of the council next month I would stand up and say that all county development plans should be put on ice until this clarification is given. There is no point in the Government saying one thing at a meeting when the reality is different. Until we get clarification, county councils should stall their development plans if there is to be a new agenda.

In regard to Puraflow system, An Taisce, in response to Deputy Ferris, said that they were not happy with some of them, particularly in holiday homes. We are discussing the one-off house. What does An Taisce see wrong with them? Are the county councils which are encouraging people to put in those Puraflow systems wrong if An Taisce say they are not working? Can there be clarification of what An Taisce has said on those systems? I am not an engineer but I know enough about the land to know that those systems in reasonably gravelled soil would be preferable to many of the modern sewage treatment facilities.

I thank the Chairman for his intervention at the last meeting with my request that Mr. Corcoran visit west Cork. He did and I acknowledge that it was a reasonably constructive meeting. We await the outcome.

In case there is some misunderstanding about what we are saying, I suggest that the transcripts of the meeting with Mr. Corcoran would show that when he spoke about the percentages of septic tanks causing groundwater pollution, it would be at variance with what was written down. I could not agree with what he said. I must have not said it in a language that was clearly understood. I did not suggest for one moment that pollution was not created by septic tanks. However, the impression Mr. Corcoran gave was that the majority of underground water was created by septic tanks. I was in dispute over that point. He corrected it today.

Our concern is the single one-off rural house. I did not contribute on this issue the last day because other members had dealt with this subject more than adequately. Dare I say that maybe we should have our county development plans drafted as Gaeilge? Gaelic is a much more precise language than English. For a correct analysis of the Constitution, read the Irish version rather than the translated one. We have a problem in one-off rural housing. Mr. Nix is still welcome to come down to the farm for a six or 12 month stint, and that is not said in an offensive way.

Looking at the documents circulated by An Taisce - and this permeates all those documents - the examples of the countries taken - Canada, the USA, Denmark, Britain and the Netherlands - are of no interest to me as a citizen of this State - Ireland. Giving as an example what other communities do in their states, what their culture is or anything else, is typical of what is happening in the case of the one-off rural house here. This shows a real absence of understanding; it is in the local authorities and in the presentation here today. When the Taoiseach spoke and it is no secret - anything that happens in Fianna Fáil is no secret——

There are secrets.

Nothing is secret, not even in the Deputy's party.

The main concern was the single one-off rural housing for the local person, not specifically for the farmer's son or daughter, but the person who comes to an area because their roots are there, maybe one or two generations. We tried and failed to get this message across. At a recent meeting in Cork, we got what we thought was a formula of words into our last adopted county development plan. However, the needs of a person with roots in rural Ireland - where there is no danger of creating a health hazard, causing traffic congestion or creating underground water pollution - are not being clearly understood. That is our culture and our heritage. I want no examples from any other countries. I want to see what is reflective of Irish society as it was, as it is and as we would like it to be.

At this committee, we have different parties from different parts of the country. Yet we are all at one because we reflect the people and their needs and choices. If we could get that message across there could be a measure of unison in our approach to it. I would not find any great fault with what Mr. Corcoran said to us today. The problem is the thinking of An Taisce and what that body stands for.

A new circular has been issued which relates to the certification of the green planning. Who gives the accreditation? Why should it be the Royal College of Planning in London? That means the setting of the course. Why do we not have it in our country? We have problems like that. We have a problem whereby that college has now established an office in County Clare because it still sees this little island as part of the British Isles. We are not. We sought to break that link. We fought to break that link. We, the people of this country, have our own culture and heritage, thank God, and we will strive to keep it alive.

I welcome Mr. Corcoran and Mr. Nix though I would have preferred had they brought Mr. Lumley with them because I had quite a few interesting and tense phone conversations with him over the past couple of months. I will not be applying to join An Taisce. It will not get my application. I would like to know if possible who are the Waterford members of An Taisce. I ask that question seriously and I hope the witnesses can give me a list.

As stated by many other committee members, one-off rural housing is the issue. An Taisce certainly has no understanding, no human approach or touch in relation to that matter. If I could be very parochial for a very short time, the case I outlined previously before this committee was one of a small farmer with 20 hectares. His daughter got a site, married a local part-time farmer and builder and lived a short distance from the site. Those people have had their plans for a simple dwellinghouse turned down by An Bord Pleanála. The fact that it turned them down does not speak volumes either because that body is not noted for its consistency. Very often their officers come up with one decision or clarification which is then changed when they go back to this famous place in Dublin.

I did not read the draft of the Wexford County Council development plan, but right across this country there is now such anger among councillors that there will be many other Wexfords. I am not so sure that might be right, but in relation to the particular situation I have mentioned, it is ironic that in Famine days, a couple of hundred yards from where this proposed house was turned down today, hundreds of people lost their lives through eviction, hunger, starvation and bad treatment; and in a modern affluent Ireland a faceless body, serial objectors and the gentleman who put his name to the appeal to An Bord Pleanála never saw the site, and yet this young couple, on their own farm, have had their planning application turned down.

Outlining the case I have described, Mr.Corcoran conveniently omitted to mention that the one-off house was for the daughter of the farmer in question. It is a shocking state of affairs that this kind of situation exists in the country today. There are many anomalies in what Mr. Corcoran said, and a good deal of truth too. If he tries to give the impression before this committee that farmers are not conscious of the environment and not anxious to protect it, that shows how little he really knows. Perhaps I am being unfair to him, because my clash was with Mr. Lumley. I must say I was far from impressed with him. I was totally unimpressed with his approach to the particular question and on many occasions he was economical with the truth, bordering on being totally dishonest in his approach to this particular matter.

There is little more I can say at this time, but the anger across rural Ireland at what is happening today because of the actions of these faceless people could yet lead to consequences that may not be great for future planning.

I would like to ask a couple of questions. I often wonder what sustainable development really means. I know everyone feels it means that areas should be more populated. I represent the area of Tourmakeady in County Mayo. It is a vast area, and a great tourist attraction around Lough Mask, with fabulous mountains too. A number of years ago there were three national schools in that area.

We are considering the issue of one-off rural housing.

This has to do with that subject. The three national schools were amalgamated and now we have one, with one pupil in each class, with the result that the teacher there is bored stiff and intends to leave the job. That national school will now close, with the result that the few pupils in it will have to go to a school nearby in County Galway.

The Tourmakeady area is one visited annually by many tourists, and because there will be no people there will be no services, no schools, and eventually no churches or post office. What does sustainable development mean for such an area? In my view it means that if at all possible, permission for building rural houses in this area should be granted to help keep open the local shop, post office, church and national schools. With that in mind, I would like to know where An Taisce stands on sustainable development.

I was delighted to hear Mr. Corcoran say that he feels that septic tanks or Puraflow systems work if conditions are ideal. I presume then that he does not have any objections to them being used in the right conditions. Mr. Nix says in his article that we are the most car dependent country in the world. He notes the number of kilometres used in places like America, the United Kingdom, France and Germany, and he compares those countries to Ireland. If one were living in the west of Ireland, one would almost have to travel to Dublin in order to travel by train to Cork. We have the poorest public transport system in the world, yet you are trying to compare this country with those which have the best public transport systems. That does not stand up at all, and it should not be portrayed in the manner it has been here. Until as recently as a year ago the train system from Castlebar or Westport to Dublin was going more slowly than when it was put in place 100 years ago.

The first point I would like to raise is that referred to by Mr. Corcoran regarding the EPA and nitrites. The EPA is a Government body. If one checks with it, one sees that it has figures and maps which it gives out to the public showing that, in the main, the BMW region does not have a problem with nitrate levels. I do not have the document with me today, but I have it in my office, and if you do not believe it, it is they whom you are calling liars rather than me. It gets on my wick looking at the rubbish passed out to us. With due respect to the individual who gave it to us, I could not describe it differently. I refer to the information handed out to us about one-off rural housing. We are really getting into dictatorship here from individuals such as you. It gets on my wick when the country is paying people such as you to research such rubbish at a time when post offices and schools are being closed. If your organisation had its way, we would end up with a dictatorship.

Mr. Lumley was mentioned earlier. I find it annoying listening to him. I have done so on several occasions, at conferences, etc., and I think he gets something of a buzz - he is almost addicted - and many of the staff of An Taisce seem to get a buzz when they go working on a case against rural housing. It is a problem we must examine, for the one thing that you are missing here is that you are undermining rural people's lives and rights. Travellers would not be treated in this way; it would not be tolerated. It is disgraceful how we have been treated by your organisation. It is nothing short of a disgrace to come up with this rubbish about the size of a frontage in a rural area or an urban area, and the cost of electricity. People in the rural area will pay for their electricity. There is no problem with that, but the one thing you seem to miss was alluded to earlier - these people are getting a free site and are prepared to build their own house on it rather than put their names on the local authority waiting list; yet we are putting everything we can in front of them to stop that happening.

The other thing that should be examined, which was alluded to by Senator Callanan, is the lack of courses for planners in this country. Planners and individuals involved in such organisations as An Taisce do not really have much education in rural life. That is the one point on which we are missing out, and we must look at it if we are to do anything about rural housing and protecting people's rights in rural areas. The other boards which we should meet are An Bord Pleanála and Dúchas, for there are similar problems in them which I would like examined. If An Taisce keeps going as at present, you will go down the road of dictatorship, and I have had it up to here with the dictatorship of officials in Dublin telling us what we should do in rural areas. We have been there for many years, and I find it disgusting.

Some of the issues the Deputy raised regarding An Bord Pleanála come under the remit of the Committee on the Environment and Local Government, so we cannot instruct those bodies to come here. I am sure that the Deputy understands that.

I have one or two points for Mr. Corcoran. I know how we suffer in County Meath at the hands of people coming down from Dublin 4 - I said that the last time and you did not reply to me today on it - buying property in rural areas and then objecting to local people. That is the tragedy of it. They object to local people whose families have been in the area for hundreds of years, and that really annoys me and every public representative very much. They might not be full members, but they owe allegiance to An Taisce, as we all know. The latest thing I have come across from the same type of people is that, when a person puts in a planning application in the locality where those people live, they then recommend the conditions that should be put on that application. They are not leaving it to the planners to set the normal conditions. They are recommending at least ten or 12 extra conditions, which mean more difficulty and expense for those unfortunate people. It is extremely sad that such things have happened.

Planning permission is secured more easily in County Cavan than in my own area of north Meath, and I compliment the Cavan county manager on the planners there. I always hope that we might get some of those kinds of planners into County Meath, County Westmeath and County Louth. Those are the three counties in my area, and the difficulties mean that people have to go from Meath into Cavan, Westmeath or Louth to secure planning permission for they cannot get it in their own area. We have examined the development plan and changed it to a certain extent, but not to my liking and not to that of the ordinary couples who are trying to provide a home for themselves.

Someone talked about British rule, something which I do not - thanks be to God - remember. However, I have been told by my late father and very elderly people how many people lived in rural Ireland when there were big families and no water or sewage facilities. There could have been 40 houses on one road in my area - and, of course, the British landlords evicted them. Now unfortunate people are trying to get planning permission in those areas today but there is a new British landlord, An Taisce, objecting to them. That is tragic, I hoped you might have had a little common sense and respect for those who were born, bred and reared in rural Ireland rather than driving them into areas in the larger towns and cities with social problems. You want to shove everybody in together, which means more social problems. I appeal to you and your body to have a little respect for those unfortunate people who live in rural Ireland and wish to continue living there. I appeal to you to have sympathy with them. I have no further supplementary questions and ask Mr. Corcoran to reply.

Mr. Corcoran

I will reply to Deputy Timmins's questions first. He said that one proposes section 4, but it is proposed by all three local councillors in the area, and as I said before——

It is proposed by one and seconded by another.

Mr. Corcoran

As far as An Taisce is concerned, they work from the planner's report and the individual reports on those files. If there are inconsistencies between reports on files and decisions made, they will be referred to An Bord Pleanála for assessment, and it seems that An Bord Pleanála opposes most of those references from An Taisce.

On development plans, Galway has a good appendix to its plan which appears to work to its benefit. There are fewer appeals to An Bord Pleanála because people have been given clearer guidelines as to what they can do in respect of planning applications.

As to where An Taisce stands on the Wexford plan, if Wexford becomes a total free for all, let us consider what will happen. Currently, people who work in Dublin are buying houses in towns like Gorey, 50 miles from Dublin, and are driving through County Wicklow to get there. They are doing that not because they want to travel 50 miles by road every day but because they cannot afford to live in the area where they were born. The reason they cannot afford to live in the area where they were born is that, although Judge Kenny's report in 1973 suggested that local authorities should assess the local demand for housing, compulsorily acquire sites because agricultural value was 25% and transfer those directly to the people who needed housing who could then get a builder to build on the site, various Governments chose not to implement that recommendation. That is not the only model that could be used. There are also fiscal measures that could be used in relation to that.

The question of affordability was raised by many members. Again, it is a choice of Government either to give the benefit of a county council's decision to rezone land for housing to the landowner or developer or to the people who need houses. Governments have chosen to give it to the developer. That is the reason people cannot afford to build a house on land and that is why they commute 50 miles every day, which is crazy. If sites in Gorey and such towns are too expensive for them and sites in rural areas are made available, people from Dublin will build in the rural areas. If Wicklow were to do the same, people would not drive through County Wicklow to get to Gorey every day when they could build a house in Wicklow. They would dot Wicklow with houses if that were the case.

Deputy Timmins said that people cannot afford sites in towns in County Wicklow but they can afford sites a half mile away and asked why they could not do that. If they cannot afford a site in the towns, it is open to Government to introduce legislation which would allow them buy sites in towns. Government will do that if it regards housing need as a basic human right. We are human in An Taisce. We recognise housing need as a basic human right and we advocate that Government should give the benefit to the people who need a house rather than to developers or landowners, but Governments chose to give the benefit to landowners. That is their choice. Governments can change that and put a more human face on these issues if they make that choice.

Mr. Corcoran

By implementing the Kenny report or other fiscal measures as an alternative to give the benefit of land rezonings to the people who need a house rather than to the landowner or developer who gets his land rezoned.

Could Mr. Corcoran deal with the simple question of a small farmer's son or daughter on their own farm being refused planning permission because of An Taisce's intervention and the decision of An Bord Pleanála?

Mr. Corcoran

I was coming to that. I was going down the list of questions as they were put to me. Deputy Hayes's question about constituents' problems is next on my list. I do not think there are an inordinate number of appeals. If people have difficulties in getting planning permission in County Tipperary, it is not because of An Taisce. It is because they are not complying with the plan made by Tipperary county councillors.

The Deputy also asked about the Puraflow system. An Taisce did not say there was something wrong with that. The MC O'Sullivan report said that Puraflow does not work in all conditions. An Bord Pleanála said that also. An Taisce did not say it.

The question I asked was whether An Taisce took account of the human aspect in terms of people's feelings. Does Mr. Corcoran understand what I am saying? I have spent two days here listening to what is being said and I believe there is no human feeling in any of the presentations. Mr. Corcoran passed over the question——

Mr. Corcoran

I thought I answered that question.

——which proves to me that he does not give two hoots about people's feelings and what they want.

Mr. Corcoran

With respect, I did answer that question. I said we believe that the provision of a house is a basic human right. We have always advocated Government making sites available at affordable prices to people to meet their human requirements for a house. It is not acceptable that, for instance, people would live with their parents into their 20s and 30s because they cannot afford a house for themselves. That could change if Government makes a decision to give the benefit not to the landowner or speculator but to the people who need the house. I did deal with that issue and that is the human aspect to it.

Chairman, on a point of order, the affordable housing Mr. Corcoran is talking about will have to be built in an urban area. That does not deal with the question of one-off housing.

Mr. Corcoran

I am saying in towns and villages in rural areas——

We cannot have that kind of housing in a rural area.

Mr. Corcoran

If I may be allowed to answer the question, in relation to towns and villages in rural areas, it is open to local authorities, if the Government allows it, to assess the housing demand in a particular area. I do not mean housing need but demand in terms of the number of people who want to live there. They can assess that need, compulsorily acquire sites in the nearest town and village, make those sites available and transfer them directly to those people who can then have a separate building contract to build the houses. The benefit goes to them and not to the builder. There is no need for a builder to own the land and make up to €20 million profits on it.

There is no such thing as a builder buying a site for rural housing. The couple buys the site and if they want to get a builder to build a house for them, that can be done; most of them operate under direct labour. It is not the builder who is involved. There is no speculation involved in rural housing on behalf of couples in rural Ireland. Mr. Corcoran is getting it all wrong.

Mr. Corcoran

I made the point that if people want to live in a particular part of rural Ireland, it is within our resources to make sites available to them to do that but Government might change its mind on that.

On a point of order——

Mr. Corcoran

If I may finish——

The point of order is the same as the one I made previously. We cannot have the housing type Mr. Corcoran is talking about in rural areas. It is possible to have it in towns but people do not want to live in the towns. They want to live in rural areas on their own land. They do not want to buy sites. That is what we are talking about, not town houses.

Mr. Corcoran

I have already stated that in 996 out of every 1,000 cases, An Taisce does not appeal. We do not appeal on the basis that a son is building on agricultural land. That is not the basis of appeals by An Taisce. The appeals by An Taisce, as stated by the chairman of An Bord Pleanála to the Oireachtas Committee of Public Accounts, are on the grounds of groundwater, public health, public safety, breach of the development plans, breach of SACs, etc.

In respect of Senator Callanan's question about accreditation by the RTPI, I have no intention of speaking on behalf of planners but I will say that most planners are members of the Irish Planning Institute. Rural issues are part of their curriculum and rural planning is delivered by planners. In my own institute it is delivered by someone who was born in Cork and who lived in Galway and Donegal. That person is very familiar with rural issues and teaches rural planning to those planners. They would be members of the Irish Planning Institute. The fact that outside organisations accredit courses is quite usual in all universities. I will not go into that any further.

On that point, are many planners in Ireland members of An Taisce?

Mr. Corcoran

I do not know; there would not be many. This question was asked at a conference in Nenagh for local authorities, attended by An Bord Pleanála. Somebody from the hall asked the board's representative how many members of the board were members of An Taisce. He replied that none was. We do not ask members if they are planners and few of them would be. Members come from all walks of life. Many of them are farmers.

Deputy Wilkinson asked about the Waterford members of An Taisce. I do not have the list of Waterford members but many members of An Taisce are from Waterford. He mentioned Ian Lumley. Ian Lumley is from County Waterford and he knows about Waterford issues. If Deputy Wilkinson is saying members of An Taisce do not understand Waterford issues, they do.

May I have the list of members of An Taisce in Waterford, at Mr. Corcoran's convenience?

Mr. Corcoran

Data protection legislation does not allow lists of membership to be given out.

That answers my statement about faceless and serial objectors.

Mr. Corcoran

No. All objections by An Taisce are signed by the planning officers. They are not faceless. When an objection is made it is signed by the person making the objection.

On a point of order, Mr. Lumley, on his own admission, signed the appeal and stated categorically that he had never seen the site in Waterford. I asked for the list of members and am told it is not available. That raises a big question.

Mr. Corcoran

The Deputy referred to a particular planning application. He was looking for a human element. An Bord Pleanála rejected that planning application on the grounds that it was prejudicial to public health and adversely affected a special area of conservation. The special area of conservation is an EU requirement. One cannot ignore EU landscape designations. If one does, the EU will do what it threatened to do and withdraw 90% of rural incomes. That percentage of rural incomes comes in a cheque from Brussels and farmers want that cheque. One cannot ask for that cheque but then seek to ignore the special areas of conservation legislation. The Government made us subject to EU legislation such as the habitats directive, which is the basis for special areas of conservation.

Is Mr. Corcoran trying to tell me that a farmer in the Lismore area with 20 hectares of land cannot give his daughter a site for sale and that if he does, it will affect our premia payments from Europe? It shows how little he knows about rural Ireland.

Mr. Corcoran

I did not say——

Mr. Corcoran is extremely selective in the points he is making to the committee in relation to that application. In fairness, however, he is not the gentleman who dealt with it. Mr. Lumley was.

Mr. Corcoran

That decision was not made by An Taisce but by An Bord Pleanála. The board said that the application was prejudicial to public health. That was based upon the detail in that file. The Deputy may question An Bord Pleanála's competence if he wishes but I am relaying what the board said based upon the information in that file.

It was based on an objection by An Taisce.

The Deputy can speak later. Allow Mr. Corcoran to continue.

Mr. Corcoran

The Deputy says there is no human touch with An Taisce and I have dealt with that point. Our policy takes account of essential social need. We do not appeal 996 of every 1,000 applications but we do in the other four. An Bord Pleanála has consistently stated that there is good reason for the objections and that An Taisce only submits the more extreme breaches of public health and safety legislation, directive requirements and so forth.

With regard to the Wexford plan being repeated around the country, I can only repeat the point I made earlier. Development plans are made by county councillors but they are subject to Government policy. Government policy, through the national spatial strategy, has imposed requirements or parameters on development plans.

You will have to go back to Sligo again.

Mr. Corcoran

With regard to the statement about Ian Lumley being economical with the truth, bordering on being dishonest, I understood there was a protocol at these Oireachtas hearings that one does not make allegations about people who are outside the House and who are identifiable. That is a serious allegation against a person who has responsibility for making a number of appeals and An Bord Pleanála acknowledges the fact that many of the appeals made to the board are well founded.

Senator Burke referred to sustainable development and the three national schools at Tourmakeady, County Mayo. In the 1990s I made submissions to the NESC and other bodies with Deputy Marian Harkin and Professor Caulfield from Mayo seeking a regional strategy, which subsequently transpired. The cover of the current issue of the An Taisce magazine features the dismantled railway line on the western corridor. We have been campaigning for many years to have that line reinstated to support the counter magnets to Dublin of Galway, Sligo, Letterkenny, Limerick and Cork. They need a railway line linking them if they are to be counter magnets. Our regional strategy is about getting the population into the west to support the infrastructure that already exists.

An Taisce agrees that planning should be granted in those areas?

Mr. Corcoran

We do not object to all planning applications. We object to very few and only on the grounds of specific problems with the planning file. That is the function of An Taisce in those cases. In 996 cases out of 1,000 we do not object but in four of those 1,000 cases we do object.

We have no objections to the Puraflow system in the right conditions but there are often indications in the planner's or engineer's report on the file that there are problems in a particular area. Deputy Blaney asked about nitrates and the EPA. The Department of Agriculture and Food said it would not have regional nitrates protection plans but a national protection plan. The reason is that there was no time. If the Department had tried to put together a regional plan, it would have taken so long to carry out the scientific studies that the grants from Europe would already have been blocked for breach of the nitrates directive.

I cannot answer the Deputy's questions and comments about dictatorship and so forth. When he uses words such as "dictatorship" he fails, perhaps deliberately, to understand that the role of An Taisce is not that of decision maker. Its prescribed role is purely to refer certain matters to An Bord Pleanála. The board makes the decision, as do the local authorities. The Government, not An Taisce, drafted the national spatial strategy and approves European landscape designations and drinking water and groundwater legislation.

The lack of courses for planners was also mentioned along with poor education on rural life but that is just not true. The statement made is not true in relation to the education of planners. It should be left up to the planning institutions themselves to answer that particular allegation, which is untrue. I am not a member of the Irish Planning Institute or any other planning institute.

I will now come to the Chairman's questions, although I do not think he had any questions that required answers.

If a person comes down from Dublin, buys a house and objects to a young person——

Mr. Corcoran

You say they have connections to An Taisce.

Secretly he has, I believe.

Mr. Corcoran

Let me explain this once again. Members of An Taisce are not authorised by An Taisce to make planning appeals or submissions in the name of An Taisce, unless they are the authorised planning officer for that particular area. The planning officers for a particular area are known and their names are on the planning submissions. There is nothing faceless about it; the name of the person who makes the planning submission to the local authority, or the appeal to An Bord Pleanála, is on the file for anybody to see. There is nothing faceless about it.

As regards big families in the past who had no water or sewerage, you said An Taisce is like a new British landlord evicting people. Of course, An Taisce does not evict anybody.

People living in the area do.

Mr. Corcoran

As I said before, we object to four in every thousand applications on substantial grounds, which are invariably upheld by An Bord Pleanála, in relation to public health and safety. If one was to compromise on these things we would have a problem.

I will give an example of one particular appeal that An Taisce made about which we were criticised afterwards. It concerned the Mayo gas pipeline and we appealed to An Bord Pleanála on the grounds that it would cause subsidence if the peat sludge was heaped up to the size of the pyramids of Giza, which was proposed. The engineers had not resolved the problem. We appealed that to An Bord Pleanála whose report agreed with us. I think you will probably recognise from what is happening today down in Mayo that the subsidence of stacked-up peat is a big issue. It is just as well that these issues have a forum where they can be publicly examined.

Thank you, Chairman. I think Mr. James Nix had some points to answer, which were directed to him. I have not answered those.

Mr. Nix

I just realised that there is something every single Senator and Deputy present has mentioned, and that is that their aim was to secure housing for people who were from the area. Approximately 18,000 of the 50,000 houses that are completed each year are one off. It follows that if, say, 13,000 of the 18,000 one-off houses are urban generated, that is 70%. Then everybody here would be in agreement that we should not be allowing for 70% of those one-off houses. Let us look at the statistics we have to work with. In the fourth paragraph of the article I wrote last week, I stated: "A missing link in the research on one-off housing is that we do not actually know the percentage of one-off housing which is urban generated." That is a key point. We do not know how many of the people applying in south Tipperary are driving to Waterford every day. We do not know how many people in Clare are driving to Limerick or how many are driving to Galway city from Counties Galway and Mayo. None of the members of the committee supports urban generated, one-off housing. All the points made by members of the committee refer only to rurally based one-off housing. So, as regards the problem we are examining, we are in complete agreement on 70% of the one-off housing. I am assuming that 13,000 out of the 18,000 houses are urban generated. That is work we have to do. We have to find out what percentage of those houses are rural based, are actually land based, and how many are urban generated. Unless and until we do that, we cannot find what we are disagreeing over or what we are in agreement on.

Let me broaden the argument. Houses today are costing ten to 12 times the annual average income. That has leaped up over the 1996-97 figures; I do not have the figures with me but it is now way more than that. We would really be confining ourselves if we felt this problem is solely about housing needs that are generated from rural Ireland. Deputy Timmins said that people in Wicklow towns are moving out and seeking to buy sites half a mile from the town. I have looked into this and I have been trying to get figures for how many new town roads we have built and how we have expanded our towns since 1922 but I cannot get the figures. As I cannot get figures on how many new town roads we have built, how can we possibly accommodate new housing in towns if we are not building any new town roads? This is crazy. We have a National Roads Authority that cannot give data on this.

In the last paragraph of my article, I stated: "Confining new rural housing to a narrow set of planning applicants [on which we all essentially agree] goes hand in hand with new parks, new paths and new roads to unlock towns and villages". It is a point that was brought home by Senator Paddy Burke from Mayo. We have a situation where we cannot allow people who have grown up in towns to live in them because we are not unlocking the towns by linking up the back roads and creating new grids.

I went to school in Limerick city: look at the amount of roadway that was laid out there in the 1800s. Look at the amount of roadway that was laid out in Dublin in the 1800s and 1900s. From 1600 on, we were laying out new roads, but we have stopped doing so. No wonder, therefore, that people are under such pressure or that this debate has become do heated. Are we analysing the problem as we should be?

There is a developer in Dunleer whose land was valued at €490,000 and because of a rezoning decision it is now worth €9 million. A colleague of mine, Mr. Tom Dunne, appeared before another committee——

We are not talking about suchcases.

Mr. Nix

One second, I am going to pursue it.

I am in the Chair,

not you. We did not bring you in here to talk about developers in Bray, Wicklow, Navan, Waterford or anywhere else. We are talking about rural housing and I would like you to stick to that subject, please.

Mr. Nix

Okay. Tom Dunne's presentation is extremely relevant to rural housing. DeputyTimmins' point is that an awful lot of people who would like to live in cities cannot do so. That is also the point with urban generated rural housing, which is specifically what the 1976 report addressed. Deputy Timmins' point is that people would like to live in these towns. Senator Paddy Burke's point was that people want to live around schools, post offices and other facilities. I wrote my article because if one looks at the work An Foras Forbatha did, they wondered how many people were needed to sustain a primary school, a post office, a library, a doctor, a dentist and a post-primary school. The figure for the latter was 4,000. As you can see from the article that is in front of you, it slips down to 150 people for a shop. As with most things, however, walking distance is a key element. If one has to drive somewhere in the car, the reality is that one will often drive to a city but one might walk to a local shop. All the research has shown this, so the idea is that one would group houses as closely as possible to that shop. Instead of getting into a car and driving all the way to Galway or Maam Cross, one would go to a village north of those places and service one's needs there.

This is brought out in the fourth column of my article, which stated: "Importantly, village rejuvenation is receiving greater attention in North America where it is boosted by new community design". Under this model, new houses and shops are arranged so that the easiest way to get from one to the other is on foot or by bike - the aim being to reintroduce "walkable" communities. A well laid out park or town square is another key feature of new community design. I am trying to underline the fact that we cannot possibly ease the pressure for rural housing unless we "decouple" - a great word we are using a lot these days. If we could decouple the urban generated element, I reckon we would be in agreement on 70% of our subject. If we can decouple that and find the ways to unlock those towns, villages and urban centres, we will agree on 70% of what we are talking about.

I thank Mr. Nix and Mr. Corcoran. There is a little confusion about urban generated rural housing. The national spatial strategy recognises the need for urban generated rural housing. While I cannot speak for other members, I have yet to see an interpretation or definition of it. My understanding of urban generated rural housing is that it refers to people who want to live in a rural area but who work in the town. I am in favour of that.

You mentioned 18,000 houses being one-off houses. Will you clarify that figure? I heard conflicts between the Irish Rural Dwellers Association and Mr. McDonald in respect of it. Are we talking about houses in the rural area or about one-off houses?

I am absolutely astounded at the way our An Taisce visitors have avoided and evaded the question of farmers' sons and daughters getting planning permission on their land. We have listened for some time but that issue has not been addressed. It is difficult to go into a particular case and, to be fair to Mr.Corcoran, I did not deal with him. However, I would like an investigation, if possible, into the circumstances surrounding the refusal of the planning permission to which I referred. I stand over what I said in relation to my dealings with Mr. Lumley on that permission.

Unfortunately, Mr. Lumley's name has been mentioned. It is also fair to say he is easily identifiable within An Taisce. We accept that. Mr. Corcoran stated that he prepares the objections to An Bord Pleanála but I ask members to refrain from mentioning the names of people who are not here.

The fact remains that his name was on the appeal. There is a question of natural justice. That somebody could do that but not see the site amazes and astounds me. It appears that An Taisce's policy is one of a scorched earth. If one follows its line of thinking, the situation will be impossible. Its conditions will not be relaxed to enable people in rural areas to get planning permission. I suppose Wexford is the first symptom of what has happened. I repeat that An Taisce's intervention in planning affairs is having the opposite effect to what it might intend. I am not so sure about its intentions and I question the intentions and actions of many of its members. That has been clarified today by virtue of the fact that I cannot get the list of members of An Taisce in my area.

Mr. Corcoran

The Data Protection Act would make it illegal for any organisation to give out such a list.

I am sorry I missed part of the substance of this discussion as I was at a hearing of the All-Party Committee on the Constitution at which I listened to a presentation from the Royal Town Planning Institute on housing affordability. I wish to start by declaring a few interests. I am a member of the Irish Planning Institution, the Royal Town Planning Institute and of An Taisce. I suppose I should look for the exit at this stage.

A point about the teaching of rural planning in the planning schools in this State was raised. There are two masters programmes in planning in this State - one in Dublin Institute of Technology, Bolton Street, and the other in UCD. I studied planning in UCD. Both courses have substantial modules in rural planning. Indeed, I was lectured by Ciaran Lynch who was the planner in County Clare but who is now in the IT in Tipperary. There was a heavy emphasis on rural issues in my class of 20 students in UCD. Three students were from County Mayo and they added considerably to it. There was a good balance between those from urban and rural areas. Indeed, as a native of Dún Laoghaire, I often had to defend urban values against the onslaught of rural values throughout the course. I wish to put on record that the courses in UCD and Dublin Institute of Technology are balanced in the way that they give voice to urban and rural values.

I wish to refer to two points made by Mr. Corcoran. One referred to the statement I made about dictatorship. I was referring to members of his organisation attending conferences and so on and the manner in which they put their policies across. They do not put their points across in the manner he did today. They do so more in the mode of a dictator in that it is their way or no way. I do not like their manner and do not accept it.

As regards the education of planners, I was not referring to the Irish courses but to the fact that the majority of planners in this country have not received Irish training. That is a concern. They have little education in respect of rural Ireland. That is the point I raised.

Mr. Corcoran spoke about his agreement with rural housing and he then went on to talk about affordable housing. One cannot have affordable housing outside town limits - it is not on. That has nothing to do with rural housing. Mr. Nix talked about not having statistics on new roads. To listen to him, one would think no roads had been built in Ireland since 1922 which is absolute rubbish. But for some of our developers, some of our towns would not be the great towns they are today. We have them to thank for those towns.

It is disgraceful that the law prevents us from getting a list of members of An Taisce. It is disgraceful and something at which we, as legislators, will have to look. I will not retract what I said about some members of An Taisce and their dictatorial manner and the buzz they seem to get putting their points across and the manner in which they object to some applications.

I come from the west. I represent an area in south Sligo which has suffered an enormous rate of depopulation in the last 50 or 60 years. Townlands have been wiped out and have no one living in them. We are trying to encourage people to return to those areas to sustain local shops, schools and other local services. I have been involved in two county development plans as a councillor. An Taisce puts much weight on county development plans and it is correct to say that councillors are responsible for the final plan. I was involved in making submissions regarding one-off housing. Guidelines and regulations were put into the county development plans in good faith but they are not being interpreted correctly. A new county development plan is about to be agreed and we will have to work out this problem. Sligo County Council is a responsible council. It has passed one section four motion since I became a member in 1985. The road of the section four motion is a very dangerous one. If every objection becomes the subject of a section four motion the whole thing will go out of control.

It is important that An Taisce stands back and looks at the implications of its actions. I am concerned for the people who cannot afford to buy a house but may be lucky enough to buy a site from a local farmer or be given one by a parent or relative and, with the help of friends and relations, to put a roof over their heads. Such people could easily put their names on the council housing list and wait for the council and the State to provide a house for them but they are not prepared to do that. Instead of working against such people we should all, including An Taisce, An Bord Pleanála and planners, work for them.

Mr. Corcoran

There have not been many specific questions which demand a reply from me. Deputy Wilkinson mentioned the application in County Waterford. An Taisce did not appeal that application because it was made by a son or daughter. We do not appeal 996 decisions out of every 1,000. We appealed that application because of specific threats to public health. That file cannot be debated in this forum. An Bord Pleanála looked at the file and rejected the application on the grounds of public health and the requirements of the landscape directives.

I ask Mr. Corcoran to come and look at the site and to bring the file with him.

Mr. Corcoran

That site was inspected. An Taisce only looks at sites from the road. It does not go onto land. An Taisce does not seek to have the power to go onto land to inspect sites. Much information can be garnered from individual planners' and engineers' reports. If there is an inconsistency between those reports and the manner in which the application is dealt by the county manager it is appropriate to refer the matter to An Bord Pleanála for an adjudication on a matter which had not been properly adjudicated on at local authority level.

Deputy Blaney referred to dictatorship mode at conferences. I was invited to give a paper on our rural housing policy in County Wicklow two weeks ago to an audience mostly composed of farmers. The Irish Rural Developers Association and a local Wicklow pro-planning group also gave presentations. At the end of the presentations a motion was passed that An Taisce and the Wicklow pro-planning group, because we were so close together, should formulate a policy in response to the county development plan and we agreed to do this. The meeting did not want a total free-for-all in Wicklow. They wanted sons and daughters to be allowed to build on their families' land. An Taisce does not object to that because we recognise an essential social need. That is already in our policy.

We do not have a scorched earth policy. If we had we would appeal every planning application. We appeal only a small selected number on very extreme grounds. This was acknowledged by the chairman of An Bord Pleanála when he gave evidence recently to the Committee of Public Accounts.

Senator Scanlon spoke about depopulation in townlands in County Sligo. An Taisce has been lobbying for a long time to have Sligo made a growth centre as a counterpoint to Dublin. That has now come to pass. We are still working hard, as others are, to have the western railway line reopened. We are also working to get rural transport initiatives off the ground so that people can interlink with such a railway line and mobility can be improved in rural areas. Our policy on one-off rural housing has been always part of a bigger submission to Government agencies to have decentralisation implemented in a way that matters and underpinned by legislation. We want the spatial strategy to be underpinned by legislation so that it becomes real and is not dismantled. I feel the spatial strategy is being dismantled in a way that will have a detrimental effect on areas such as Sligo. I agree with what Senator Scanlon says about the need to make rural schools and post offices operational again. An Taisce shares that objective.

How can anybody assess a site for foul water drainage from the road?

Did Mr. Corcoran read the County Waterford file? To assess a situation by walking along the road does a grave injustice to a person's case.

Deputy Wilkinson, you can take that matter up with the Joint Committee on the Environment and Local Government. I understand An Bord Pleanála will be speaking to that committee soon.

It was An Taisce which objected and not the Joint Committee on the Environment and Local Government. An Taisce tells us it is in favour of social housing. My question is valid.

We will not get any further answers on that matter.

Mr. Nix

Deputy Timmins asked about statistics. The statistics were given by the Department of the Environment and Local Government at a housing conference in Galway in April 2001.

Its figure for completions in that year is 36%, 18,000 out of 50,000. There are huge variations from county to county. That accounts for the different statistics quoted. For example, 70% of new housing in Wexford are one-off developments as is 60% of new housing in Galway. In other areas, the figure is lower. We are giving the national average. The CSO is now taking up these figures and we will have CSO statistics on one-off housing from now on. They are the ones to watch because the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government is not updating its figures from year to year.

I am trying to establish if the services were one-off.

Mr. Nix

There was a debate on that issue. The Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government included, in some places, those included by Finian Matthews in April 2001. The CSO has since modified the methodology used by the Department to exclude those particular houses. The matter has been dealt with. The percentage slipped slightly as a result - I understand it went from approximately 36% to 32% when the debated issue was excluded.

The point was made that there is enormous capital cost advantages in buying a site and building on it. I thought I was coming back to the committee to discuss the massively increased running costs involved in doing that. Yes, one does have cheaper capital costs. I accept that it is cheaper to buy a site and build on it. It is the running costs which cause the problem. We do not regard that as a good investment in overall terms.

Other people feel differently.

Mr. Nix

If I were to sell the Chairman a car for €8,000 that would only do 15 or 16 miles to the gallon——

I must ask you to conclude. The point you are making is rubbish.

Mr. Nix

The point about capital costs and running costs?

Mr. Nix

Deputy Blaney asked about roads. I can get figures on inter-urban roads but I cannot get figures on new urban roads. That refers back to the point I was making about unlocking towns and villages. The roads in most of our towns and villages are built in a Y shape. Houses are then built from the central point of the Y. The difficulty is that no one fills in the roads around the Y to create a web. I cannot get figures on that. We all agree it would be fairly smart if we could have such a system. As one moves out from the Y houses are located further and further away from post offices and shops and so on. We should try to unlock that system. Perhaps this committee, together with the Joint Committee on the Environment and Local Government, could take up this matter.

Deputy Timmins asked about urban generation. There is no definition in that regard. The spatial strategy approves of rural generated housing needs which arise for people who are an intrinsic part of the rural community by way of background or the fact that they work full-time or part-time in rural areas. It disapproves of urban generated houses in rural locations arising from people in urban areas seeking a rural lifestyle either for permanent or holiday homes. The needs of the latter category should be catered for in a sustainable manner by encouraging appropriate residential development in towns and villages rather than in the open countryside. The key point is those working full-time or part-time in a rural area. I would be a little more liberal than that. Taking it literally, it means one would have to be there all the time. Many jobs are more mobile than that. We should perhaps direct this towards those working in the area on a day-to-day basis. The spatial strategy states such people should be working full-time in the area.

We must conclude at this point. I thank Mr. Corcoran and Mr. Nix for attending the meeting and responding to members' questions.

I thank Mr. Corcoran and Mr. Nix for meeting with us a second time.

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