JOINT COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE AND FOOD debate -
Wednesday, 19 Nov 2003

Vol. 1 No. 25

Farm Retirement Scheme: Presentation.

Chairman

I welcome to the meeting Mr. Michael Bergin and his colleagues from the IFA. They have asked to meet with the joint committee to discuss the farm retirement scheme. They wish to place a particular emphasis on consideration of problems which have arisen for people with disabilities. We have had meetings with the farm retirement group for justice and with officials from the Department of Agriculture and Food involved in the early retirement scheme. The Department officials have agreed to return to the joint committee and a date for a meeting with them will be arranged.

Before asking Mr. Bergin to begin his presentation, I draw to the attention of the delegation the fact that while members of the committee have absolute privilege, this same privilege does not extend to witnesses appearing before it. Members are aware of their responsibilities in this regard.

Mr. Michael Bergin

I thank the Chairman and members. I am chairman of the IFA's rural development committee. The reason we requested to speak to the committee today was to be allowed to highlight a serious anomaly in the early retirement scheme. Farmers who have been ill for a number of years and unable to farm find that when they come to 55 years of age, unlike other farmers, they are not eligible for the early retirement scheme. Under the new scheme, a farmer must have been farming in the year prior to application and must have submitted an area aid form in that time. The problem for farmers who have had to leave farming due to ill health before reaching 55 years of age is that they have not farmed in the year prior to application. Consequently, they are ineligible for the scheme. This is very unjust and it is the purpose of our deputation to bring that to the joint committee's attention.

I am accompanied by people from the IFA and a family representative from a household affected by the circumstances I have outlined. I am also accompanied by a representative of the Carers' Association. My colleagues are TimmyO'Donoghue, chairman of the IFA in south Tipperary; Rebecca Quirke, the wife of an individual affected by the problem I have described; Richard Molloy of the Carers' Association; John Dwyer, also of south Tipperary IFA, and Dan Fox, the IFA's rural development representative in south Tipperary. I will ask Mr. O'Donoghue to outline the case in detail.

Mr. Timmy O’Donoghue

The retirement scheme has two main objectives - one is to encourage young people into farming, the other is to help to increase the size of farms they work on. As an organisation, we support those aims. The age profile of farmers is a worry to all of us in the organisation as it is to the EU. This is why we are making efforts to help people in one such case, namely, the Quirke family, and others to enter farming. As Mr. Bergin has outlined, people who do not farm up to the time they seek early retirement are ineligible. This means that some families, through no fault of their own, cannot join the early retirement scheme, since no one knows when they will become ill or invalided. Rebecca and John Quirke and their four children worked their farm well until John was overcome with disability. After that, Rebecca farmed for a period on her own and soon discovered the problems of rearing a young family and running the farm and then she had a bad accident on the farm.

The family decided to let the farm in order to have a source of income and, because of this, find themselves ineligible to avail of the farm retirement scheme. There are many other families who find themselves in a similar situation. Some of them may not have a family or an heir. For people with young families and for those wishing to take up farming, this is a major problem.

As an organisation, we are anxious to pursue this matter with the EU. To that end, we had a meeting in May with Mr. Gahon and another gentleman from Johnstown Castle in regard to families in general. They told us these were difficult decisions for them to take as administrators of a scheme. We are before the committee today to see if something can be done at a political level. We understand that the EU early retirement scheme is up for review shortly and we are here to see if we can get the committee on our side in regard to addressing this anomaly, whereby some people are ineligible for the retirement scheme.

Mr. Dan Fox

I thank the committee for the opportunity of making a presentation in regard to this harsh case. We are all human and we do not know what is around the corner for any of us. When Rebecca tells her story, it may cause members to wonder what life is all about. As Abraham Lincoln said, we are appealing to the better angels of your nature to see if this and other cases can be rectified. The legislation in the EU directive has a loophole, whereby this and other anomalies can be rectified. The journalist, Maireád Lavery, wrote an article on this issue in which she referred to about 80 genuine cases around the country. It would not break the bank to rectify these cases. The system allows for cases of force majure or where the applicant is unable to submit an area aid form by virtue of having been certified with a critical illness.

Rather than tell the committee its business, we appeal to members and point to this as a way they may be able to help us. This is a rule rather than a loophole and it might be the avenue members could explore, if and when they decide to support this case.

Mr. John Dwyer

I farm in the Cashel area and live a few miles from the Quirkes. I have known them all my life. John Quirke senior was a model farmer in his day. He was a great family man and a great leader in organisations such as Macra na Feirme and the IFA. If the shoe was on the other foot and some of us were in his position, he would be at this table today fighting for farmers' rights.

The Quirke farm has been leased for a number of years and due to illness, Mr. Quirke needs 24 hour care, seven days a week. His son, John junior is 20 years old. He went to Rockwell Agricultural College and will be qualified with a certificate in farming in two months' time. Our local Teagasc advisers and consultants have examined the situation and, in their opinion, there is no way John junior can farm unless John senior qualifies for the retirement pension under the EU farm retirement scheme. As a young farmer, John junior should be eligible for special consideration under the national reserve for premia entitlement.

The Teagasc advisers pointed out that on a farm which has been leased for 15 or 20 years, buildings which were modern 20 years ago need reconstruction in order to qualify for good farm practice and pollution control. There are no animals or machinery on the farm. Therefore, if the Quirke name is to continue in farming, those issues must be addressed. I have been involved in farming organisations for 35 years and this is the most deserving case I have ever come across. It is a rock solid case and deserves special consideration.

Mr. Richard Molloy

I am the centre manager with the Carers' Association in south Tipperary. I can testify to the committee that Rebecca is a full-time family carer. We have been involved with her for the past two years. When we became aware of the fact that John senior would not be eligible for the retirement pension, we felt it unfair. This is the year of the disabled. We got in touch with the IFA, and the two associations have been working on this over the past two years. Ms Rebecca Quirke has been caring for her husband John for more than 20 years. They were only married for a couple of years before John was diagnosed with MS.

I am sure most of the committee are aware that the life of a family carer is a very difficult one, and if John had not been struck down with his disability he would certainly be farming today and this issue would not arise. It is because of his disability that life changed completely for the Quirke household. Of all the carers I have come across, Rebecca's is one of the more acute cases. They are living in what we would consider a fairly isolated area. She looks after her husband full time. Our association can provide four hours' respite per week but there many days and hours left in the week and that work is left totally to Rebecca. I ask the committee to look as favourably as it can on the recommendation that John be given the early retirement pension.

Mr. Bergin

We shall answer any questions.

Deputy Timmins

I thank you, Chairman, for organising for this group to attend today. I know Deputy Hayes was instrumental in setting this up and he sends his apologies. He has been in touch with the committee about his absence due to illness.

I was not familiar with this case until today, but having listened to it I do not think anybody doubts its merits. With Senator Coonan and others I will follow up on this as best I can because it is a harrowing and sad case. One would imagine that under the present regulations the case could be facilitated.

I have two very brief questions. The witnesses mentioned about 80 possible cases. Have applications been made in the 80 other cases and what response did they get? Is there any way we could get a list of the extent of the cases? I know the farm retirement scheme has not been taken up very widely within the EU, and I think France is the only other country to have availed of it. Are there many such cases in France? When the Quirke family made the application, what type of response did they receive in turning it down?

Deputy Upton

I thank the group for attending and making its presentation. The case is one I will certainly be giving my full support to. It is difficult to understand how somebody in the circumstances presented to us is basically deprived of the ability to pass on those farming rights, particularly when we are trying to promote and encourage young people into farming. It is ironic that there are blocks put in the way.

I understand the bureaucracy and where the administrators are coming from when they say they cannot change the rules and that it is up to us politicians to promote the case. However, it should not depend on a loophole. The two questions I intended to ask have been asked by Deputy Timmins. How many more such cases are there and what level of progress have they made in terms of applications? Are there any precedents in other European countries that we could relate to? The early retirement scheme is not taken up in many other European countries but I ask for any information available on what happens there. I have no difficulty in doing anything I can to help in this particular case.

Senator Coonan

I also extend a welcome to the delegation and thank it for making us aware of this case. I was familiar with a similar case in my own area of north Tipperary, and I can understand and empathise with the family involved because it is a terrible situation to find oneself in. We do not have many young people who are anxious to take over farms at present, and, given that we have only 80 applicants here, every effort should be made to accommodate them and encourage young people to take over farms.

The two issues spoken about today are, first, families which find themselves unable to farm because of invalidity and, second, the situation regarding the Fischler proposals to cater for young farmers. I ask the IFA whether it is satisfied with the regulations being proposed by Fischler for young farmers, which are still under negotiation. How does the IFA think young farmers should be addressed? In France, for example, young farmers are entitled to a loan from the Government to set up in farming at an interest rate of 1% or less.

In the 2002 budget we had changes to capital gains tax, roll over relief and other measures which made it very difficult for young farmers to continue or to set up in agriculture. What other proposals does the IFA feel we should be pressing for on behalf of young farmers in order to make it easier for them to take up farming? The delegation might clarify another point for me. The individual in this particular case, Mr. John Quirke, is 53 years old now. Is he prevented from putting in an area aid form that will enable him to get the retirement pension when he reaches the age of 55? If so, that is the real kernel of the problem.

I again apologise on behalf of Deputy Hayes. The comment that Mr. John Quirke would have been an excellent farmer comes from a man, John Paul O'Dwyer, who himself is a top class farmer. He and the Mahers, whom I know, are examples of thorough farmers, so I have no doubt that, were it not for the intervention of ill health, John Quirke would have made an excellent farmer. Like the previous speakers, I wish to highlight this matter and support the delegation in its cause of ensuring that Mr. Quirke be treated in the same manner as other farmers.

Deputy Ó Feargháil

I add my voice of support for the delegation and thank it for the case it has presented. It is all the more effective for the fact that Mrs. Quirke is present, and the individual case explained to us highlights the serious nature of the problem for farmers with disabilities. My colleagues have put the relevant questions, but it would be appropriate for the committee to indicate to the Department of Agriculture and Food its desire to see this individual case re-examined and to see a thorough examination of all 80 cases referred to us.

I am also reminded of the very impressive case put to us some months ago by the retired farmers' group, which was concerned about the general operation of the farm retirement scheme. We did mention then the possibility of the committee producing a report on the overall operation of the farm retirement scheme. Although officials from the Department of Agriculture and Food attended a meeting of the committee and made a response to the case made by the retired farmers, a number of us were far from satisfied about the situation. Either today or at our next meeting, it might be possible to consider whether the committee can appoint a member to get down to the serious business of preparing a report on the day-to-day operation of the farm retirement scheme and to build into that report an examination of this case and the 80 other cases referred to.

Deputy Hoctor

I thank the Chairman for the opportunity to address the committee today as I am not a member. Nevertheless, I was aware of this case coming to the committee and I extend a welcome to Mrs. Quirke and, in particular, my colleagues from Tipperary in addressing this very important issue. I apologise because I must attend a meeting of the justice committee at 3.30 p.m., but Deputy Ó Feargháil has stated more or less what I wanted to say. I urge that this case be referred back to the Department as soon as possible and that the 79 other cases also be examined in order to obtain a satisfactory outcome. As Mr. O'Dwyer said, it is a rock solid case. It is self-explanatory and unacceptable that this is the current situation regarding the case. There are the other unresolved concerns of retired farmers for the long-term future of their lands and the attached quotas and subsidies. These subsidies face an uncertain future with the CAP reforms. I fully support this case. This committee must work hard to ensure that we get a satisfactory outcome to what is a deserving case.

Senator Scanlon

I welcome the delegation. In my hometown, I am aware of a farmer with a young family who is in a similar situation and is one of the 80 cases referred to. He suffered a severe stroke a number of years ago and the only way he could survive was to lease his land. I am aware of the force majeure clause and that is a window of opportunity to resolve these cases. The delegation has my full support and this committee will work hard to achieve a positive response to the issue.

Deputy Wilkinson

I welcome the deputation to the committee. I give my sympathy to Mrs. Quirke and her family and what happened in their early married life. While there are anomalies in the early retirement scheme, basically it is a good case. There are many aspects of schemes that need looking at. None can compare with a health issue, as it is the most serious. I support the case made here. While 80 cases is a comparatively small number, there is much hardship in those cases. Our sincere sympathies go to the families. I look forward to doing something concrete and positive about this case and the other anomalies in the scheme.

Deputy Moloney

I lend my support to Mrs. Quirke and her deputation. I also welcome Mr. Michael Bergin from County Laois. There are similar cases of applicants for non-contributory pensions. We have also seen difficulty by way of ill health where people could not qualify. We must invite officials dealing specifically with farm retirement from the Department of Agriculture and Food to the committee, together with officials from the Department of Social and Family Affairs. A number of anomalies need to be rectified. As Mr. Fox correctly said, resolving these 80 cases will not break the bank or the Department. As this is an EU regulation and there is a difficulty in applying for aid, the officials must explain the case to see if we can make a submission to Brussels. Hopefully, this issue will be resolved to the satisfaction of all the families involved.

Deputy Carty

I welcome the delegation. I agree with Deputy Ó Fearghaíl's comments on the issue. When will the farm early retirement scheme be reviewed? Is it possible for this committee to make a presentation to that review when it occurs?

Deputy Collins

I welcome the deputation to the committee and offer them my full support. I asked two of my colleagues if they knew that this anomaly existed? Like myself they did not. We do not know all the issues we should. This is unfair and though it is fine to offer support, some guarantees must be also be offered. I agree with Deputy Moloney's call to officials of the Department to attend the committee with the deputation. We will all learn from such a visit.

Senator Callanan

We are all singing from the one hymn sheet here. The case outlined indicates the hidden Ireland. While there have been a multiplicity of schemes to aid and assist farming and its development, there are these isolated cases. Whether it is through illness or by accident, they are there. I have called on many occasions on the Parliament and the EU to take cognisance of these issues. The retirement farming group has problems too. I do not want to take away from the seriousness of the case of Mrs. Quirke and her family. There are anomalies in the scheme. Deputy Ó Fearghaíl referred to an earlier meeting with Department officials. It is now time that we engaged a rapporteur to prepare a report, and we should seek further discussions with the Department of Agriculture and Food. Ways and means must be found to overcome these isolated and serious issues. With respect to the farming organisations, emphasis has always been placed on aid, grants and development for active farmers. However, these issues surrounding the early retirement scheme have been played down and ignored. I am pleased that they have been brought to the attention of the committee. It is a credit to Mr. Bergin that he has highlighted the seriousness of the issues involved. We must follow through on them.

Chairman

I wish to be associated with the members' remarks. What the delegation has done is highlight the case on behalf of the other 79 affected families. Am I correct in drawing the conclusion that the delegation is seeking changes in the early retirement scheme to take account of persons with disabilities and the effects it has on family farms?

Mr. Bergin

Yes, that is correct. There is a provision in the scheme for force majeure cases, whereby somebody through ill health or whatever can make an individual application for an exemption. In the terms and conditions, this really only applies to short-term illnesses or where a person was ill a few month’s before being eligible for the early retirement scheme. Unfortunately, it does not go back as long as is required in the case of a person with a long-term illness.

The scheme will run until 2006, but currently we are the mid-term review and the Department is working on it. As it is an EU scheme, there is a negotiation process under the rules between it and the Department. The mid-term review is also an opportunity for the Department of Agriculture and Food to make the case, identify the anomalies and see where the scheme is not working. It can propose changes that might address those anomalies. There is an opportunity right now for the Department to make that case in the context of the mid-term review.

One member asked whether the farmer could return to farming now. He could not, since one must have been farming continuously for several years - I believe, ten - so Mr. Quirke could not now return to farming for one year and then enter the scheme. He is prohibited from entering the scheme by that rule. Those are the main points that we wish to make. There is now an opportunity to address problems and have that rule changed.

Chairman

Do any other members of the delegation wish to say anything?

Mr. Fox

We have no guarantee that the early retirement scheme will continue after 2006, so there may be a disaster waiting to happen. Matters are not all doom and gloom, however. Senator Coonan asked about the farm installation scheme. That is working really well and is currently oversubscribed, the reason being the changes made to facilitate part-time farmers. Let us give credit where credit is due. However, I appeal once again to members to work to have that anomaly sorted out if at all possible. Perhaps Mrs. Quirke might say something.

Mrs. Rebecca Quirke

I thank the committee for meeting us today, and I hope that we gave members some insight into this case. My husband suffers from multiple sclerosis and lost his speech seven years ago. He is being fed daily by machines. He has not been able to eat since his capacity to swallow went about two years ago. I start at 6.30 a.m. and finish at 12 a.m. or 1 a.m. That is the day.

I farmed under my husband's instruction, having originally worked in banks and not knowing 100% what to do. Though I came from a farming background, I was never really out on the farm much, since I had five brothers. I used to get up and look after the cows at night. One evening I was milking them. Our son was aged about one year and seven months. He followed me out instead of staying inside watching television with his father, who would not have been able to come out, being on crutches at the time. I did not know that he had followed me out. I went into the milking parlour one way, and he came down from the other direction. He went straight into a slurry tank. I waded in and pulled him out. I thought that he was dead, because he was limp in my hands. My first reaction was to throw him back in, but I did not.

Our local vet, Gerry Connors, came in. He said to me that if I kept going I would have a nervous breakdown, since I was farming while looking after the four children and my husband. He told me to give up farming. I was up at night when cows were calving and ringing the vet to come out. That is the reason that I gave up farming. As I said to the IFA members who met me in our house the other night, I would prefer to be out farming than doing what I am doing inside. It would be an easier life. One would have long hours, but one would not have to get up during the night, except at calving or lambing time.

I hope that members will view this case and whatever others there are favourably. It is discrimination, and this is the year of the disabled. It is about time that it was highlighted. I mentioned that to John Paul, as he can confirm. When the early retirement scheme was first established, I mentioned it to him one night when he came on a visit. We did nothing about it. My husband was not yet old enough. It was five or six years ago, and it did not really concern us at the time. When Margaret Hawkins asked me through the Carers' Association to write an article for The Irish Farmers’ Journal back in February, it stuck in my head that farmers are not entitled to early retirement because they have a disability. The IFA then took up the case, and it has been very good to me and my family. I thank its members publicly today. The situation must be looked into. Discrimination is one thing, but the European Union is discriminating against the disabled of this country.

Chairman

I thank Mrs. Quirke, who is more than welcome. I am glad that she has attended with her delegation. I thank the delegation on behalf of the committee and guarantee it that this committee will do all in its power to resolve this issue. First, we will send a submission to the officials in Johnstown Castle. While this meeting was in progress, we arranged a meeting for 11 December when we hope to have the departmental officials in attendance. The Department had given us an undertaking that it would return to see us. I hope that something will come of it. I thank Mr. Bergin and his colleagues very much for responding to the questions raised by members following today's submission. We will forward a submission to the Department of Agriculture and Food and the officials in Johnstown Castle. I thank everyone very much for attending.

Mr. Bergin

I thank the committee for giving us this opportunity.

The joint committee adjourned at 3.50 p.m. until 2 p.m. on Wednesday, 3 December 2003.