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JOINT COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE, FOOD AND THE MARINE debate -
Tuesday, 26 Jun 2012

Future of Aquaculture in the Marine Environment: Discussion with Federation of Irish Salmon and Sea Trout Anglers

I welcome to the committee Mr. Noel Carr, secretary, and Mr. Paul Lawton, chairman, of the Federation of Irish Salmon and Sea Trout Anglers to brief us on the future of aquaculture. The federation has stated in a report that cleaner water quality in the marine environment will produce superior fish and re-launch a new prosperity for angling tourism.

Before we commence, I remind witnesses they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they give to the committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise nor make charges against either a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I invite Mr. Carr to make his opening statement.

Mr. Noel Carr

I thank the committee for giving us the opportunity to give our side and to make this submission. Ar dtús báire ba mhaith liom mo bhuíochas a ghabháil leis an gcoiste. Táimid ag an líne deireannach den fhadhb atá againn anseo.

The Federation of Salmon and Sea Trout Anglers we would like to send a very clear message that we are the promoters of water quality and of wild fish. We seek to ensure wild fish, clean water and the habitat are protected at all stages before we pursue a sport. Our federation is an amalgam of 80 or 90 clubs throughout the country. In terms of the impending plans which Bord Iascaigh Mhara outlined to the committee on 26 April and which the Minister proposes, we wish to highlight the dangers, as we see them, to the wild fish habitat. A very serious difficulty is coming down the line not only in Ireland, but internationally.

The Federation of Irish Salmon and Sea Trout Anglers has clubs on all the main salmon rivers throughout the country. Without giving a run-down of the situation, we are in a recovery process since 2006 when the ending of drift-netting took place. There are 143 rivers in the country and 95 are still closed to killing salmon. Some are open to catch and release. We are working with Inland Fisheries Ireland on a number of rivers throughout the country. Our members are voluntary. We are working with Inland Fisheries Ireland on a community basis to ensure the water quality is right and the fish habitat areas are maintained while the spawning process takes place in regard to fish coming back to the rivers. It is a long-term goal. More than 45 rivers are open. The angling tourism business is valued at approximately €100 million, as the Minister of State, Deputy Fergus O'Dowd, outlined in a Dáil question.

We appreciate the Oireachtas joint committee giving us an opportunity to make our case and to keep our communication line open throughout the whole process because we were concerned with the submission made by BIM on 26 April, for example. A number of issues and information given were not contested. I do not plan to go through each of the issues raised but I hope to give a clear indication of where we are and what we believe will happen to the wild Atlantic salmon and sea trout should the ten cage plan go ahead.

The Minister of State, Deputy McEntee, announced it before Christmas in the Dáil and we were very worried when that happened. When BIM outlined the details of it on 26 April, it said the EIS would be published within two weeks and that we would see the details then. However, it mentioned 15,000 tonnes. Some 14,000 tonnes is already being produced nationally, so 15,000 tonnes would double the Galway Bay site.

We expected to see the EIS, or the detailed application, in the public arena within a couple of weeks. It is almost the end of June but it is not ready yet. We understand, however, it will be out in the coming weeks. That means we will have a four-week period in August when nothing happens and it is difficult to get information from the Civil Service. We worry that the application time will not be adequate for us because we are a voluntary group.

On that basis, we are objecting to something on which we have no clear detail, apart from what was in the submission from BIM. We are very concerned that to date, Inland Fisheries Ireland, another State board whose remit is to protect wild Atlantic salmon, sea trout, the wild fish and the habitat, has not been consulted by the committee. One of my objectives in speaking to the committee is to try to encourage Inland Fisheries Ireland to make a submission in defence of the salmon itself.

Our main difficulty is that the Minister has made a decision on ten plants, three in the past few months. This week a Donegal newspaper stated that there is no timeframe for the Gola fish farms but the jobs potential of the marine sector is being held up. IFA Aquaculture is, naturally, a full-time and strong lobby because it is an industry. The IFA, which is a very strong lobby, is backing it. Our federation is trying to ensure we get a closed system or to ensure the pollution emanating from the fish farms is curtailed. We have very little on our side, apart from Inland Fisheries Ireland, which would give a very clear scientific report.

There is a clear scientific report from Patrick Gargan and Greg Forde, who are eminent scientists and are held in high esteem by the North Atlantic Salmon Conservation Organisation. Their report significantly identifies the dangers of sea lice emanating from fish farms damaging the wild fish. If we could try to influence the Minister to rethink what will be a ten cage plan, we would be very happy. The Minister, in reply to a parliamentary reply to a question, quoted the Marine Institute's scientific report which was similar to the report of Gargan and Forde but he interpreted it in a way which tried to allay our fears that sea lice would not significantly impact on the wild salmon.

Rather than get into the scientific argument about it, we gave our thoughts on it in the latest issue of a sports magazine. We said that doctors - of biology in this case - differ and wild salmon die. As an organisation, we consistently campaign to try to get closed containment. While we accept fish farming, or aquaculture, is here to stay, we would like it to be onshore and contained like farming, so that the pollution produced is contained.

There are a number of solutions to that. The latest of these - I believe I have provided a copy to members - appears in an editorial in Trout and Salmon magazine, which states that sufficient international research has been carried out which indicates that we should be encouraging the industry to use closed-containment plants onshore, and even offshore, because the fish in these do not interact and effluent cannot cause the development of sea lice in them. In view of the magnitude of what the Minister is proposing, what it is intended to introduce should be put in place under controlled and proven best practice.

Sadly, the conditions which obtain in Norway do not apply in this country. The industry here is unregulated. We do not have what the Norwegians have, namely, a marine environmental police that manages and monitors the farms. If, for example, fish escape from a farm, the monitoring group will know the number that were originally in stock and can then identify the number that have disappeared. In the wild environment, these escaped fish damage natural habitats. Farmed salmon should be tagged in such a way that we will be in a position to know when fish have escaped from farms and the numbers involved. There are some regulations that are in place in Norway which we would very much like to be mirrored here because there is no regulation at all in this country.

When he was in opposition, the Minister, Deputy Coveney, was very helpful to us in respect of what became the Inland Fisheries Ireland Act. He worked hard in order to have a number of changes to that legislation accepted. At the Macgill Summer School last year, when what is being proposed was initially put forward, the Minister took part in an open forum - Dr. Joe Mulholland played a very good role in facilitating this - at which he stated that he would take on board our concerns in respect of wild Atlantic salmon and the pollution that is having an impact on tourism. At that time, a number of fish farms were planned. One of these was Fanad Fish in County Donegal, which was supposed to be located on a beach in a particular bay. When we checked the position later, it emerged that the cages were not put in the place that was originally envisaged. This was due to objections.

The Minister's proposal to take the habitat into consideration and to locate cages outside Natura 2000 special areas of conservation is commendable in one way. However, the habitat relating to the wild Atlantic salmon extends right out into the north Atlantic. Our main difficulty is that the most important study carried out in the past 20 years has been completed. I refer to the salmon at sea or SALSEA programme. Dr. John Whelan, who is president of the North Atlantic Salmon Conservation Organisation, NASCO, and who previously worked for the Marine Institute, has been to the fore in the context of ensuring that this study was completed in order that we might discover what is killing wild Atlantic salmon and their smolt at sea. At the recent NASCO summits in La Rochelle and Edinburgh, a booklet was produced which shows that the salmon habitat stretches from Galway Bay out into the north Atlantic. That is because this is the main area of feeding for salmon. It does not really matter where the cages are located because the sea lice, diseases, etc., which eventually emanate from plants that are less well managed - those which are less accessible - will give rise to obvious dangers.

The issue relating to angling tourism is a difficult one with which to deal. This is because in the context of Fáilte Ireland and the various State boards, such as IFI, connected with tourism, in technical terms the final decisions are political in nature. The organisations to which I refer are obliged to issue their reservations. A good example in this regard relates to Mr. John O'Connor, a former CEO of the Central Fisheries Board, who came before the relevant joint Oireachtas committee in 2002 or 2003 and stated that the money he was spending on protecting wild fish was being wasted because of the sea lice emanating from fish farms. He basically stated that good money was being thrown away. Mr. O'Connor also indicated that the Committee of Public Accounts could accuse him of squandering his budget. Not a great deal has happened in the interim.

From our point of view, we are working with the EPA in respect of water quality. Our only real objective in respect of the new plan for food is that closed-containment plants would be introduced. In the context of production, Irish food has a very good image. We do not have any difficulties in the context of seafood, particularly shellfish. The most important aspect is, however, that issues relating to Chile, Canada, Scotland and Norway have the potential to damage the image of Irish food, particularly if we begin to produce farmed salmon of the quality produced in other jurisdictions. Irrespective of the demand from China or of the possibility of any future lucrative deals, we must consider the amount of tourism and business that will be lost. Glasgow Caledonian University produced a report approximately four years ago which stated that in the context of angling tourism, £1 billion would be required to replace the stocks of wild Atlantic salmon in the Western Highlands region if their numbers were decimated by the operations of fish farms.

We are very anxious to retain what is sustainable, what is good and what has been producing for us, namely, the existing culture. There are 19 countries in NASCO in which salmon spawn, etc. While 95 of our rivers are still devoid of salmon, there are still 45 rivers in which they can be found. The River Moy is the jewel in the crown in this regard and the River Blackwater runs it a close second. We have some lovely rivers and we must ensure that we protect them.

We have a great deal of footage of fish farms which use pens. An Bord Iascaigh Mhara's claim that any cage is 99% water and 1% salmon is fine but this does not describe the conditions in which the fish are expected to survive. As food producers, we would not be proud of the practices in which those who operate fish farms engage in this regard. Without going into detail, I can show members a photograph of a wild Atlantic salmon which has lost a fin, which is being eaten by sea lice and which will not survive. Doing so might get the message across but I hope members will take our word for the fact that, in the context of production, the juggernaut that is coming down the road is going to have an impact on the wild environment. We cannot have high levels of production and also protect such an environment. The committee is going to have to make a call in respect of the advice it gives to the Minister on this policy. It must act as a last line of defence and state that it is possible to have a sustainable angling tourism industry. It is not acceptable to risk or sacrifice the latter for a new industry that has not been successful in Chile, Scotland or Norway. I would appreciate it if the committee could take that fact into consideration.

The Minister indicated that the plan is going to be a game changer. The proposal is a game changer, it will definitely change things completely. It is also an issue for the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources who must make a decision. Eventually the Government must choose, angling or fish farming, as both cannot work together, which is my main concern.

BIM is making the application, which is a significant departure from the normal procedure, as normally the private companies make the application. It means that BIM will lease out the licence to the prospective successful buyers. No doubt Marine Harvest will be in the field, as it is the largest in the world and will be looking for sites. An equivalent 15,000 tonnes production site in Norway employs 20 to 50 people. The company has come up with a figure of 150 ancillary jobs but I would like to find out how that will happen. The critical mass means that automatic feeders and harvesters are used as the industry is intensively well mechanised at this stage. Let us see what happens in Norway and Chile, as the level of employment is 10% of what is being proposed for Ireland.

Jobs in angling tourism are not that visible as angling creates jobs in bed and breakfast accommodation and hotels. I am the secretary of my club and every year the ladies who own the bed and breakfast accommodation ring me at Christmas to know if the river will be open. The anglers have booked accommodation with them from the previous year and the ladies are sending them their Christmas card with the good news that the river will be open for another year. The angler comes back to the same river. This does not happen in golf or other types of holidays. In fact, the rain attracts our customers. We can further develop our angling tourism business but there is no lobby group working for it. Fáilte Ireland has played down salmon and sea trout fishing in its latest brochure and has emphasised pike, coarse and sea fishing. It seems that salmon and sea trout are being written off. I would hate to think the Government would do that.

I thank the Chairman and members for the opportunity to speak and I hope the plan for ten fish cages will be reconsidered.

I thank the witness for his eloquent presentation and to speak without notes shows the depth of his knowledge. I understand that those providing bed and breakfast accommodation depend very heavily on the anglers. I do not pretend to be an expert on this industry, but I will take on board the points made by Mr. Carr. We need to ensure that the correct decision is made in order to preserve what is sustainable in the long term. If rain is sunshine for anglers, they have certainly had enough in the past three to four weeks, to the detriment of other sectors, particularly agriculture.

I thank Mr. Carr for his presentation. Different organisations have raised concerns with me about the plans the Minister is bringing forward. My starting point is that anything that has the potential to damage Ireland's image as a clean, green producer of good food from land and water would cause me serious concern. We must be very careful when we interfere with natural processes, such as genetically modified food or artificial ways of growing fish, fracking or whatever might impact on natural food production.

I address my questions to the Minister. I am concerned that BIM is looking for a ten-year licence, whereas, if my information is correct, a licence is issued for one year in Norway. We need to understand that if BIM owns the licence, the potential for draw down of any European or other funding will be compromised because of the inability of the EU to subsidise state-owned or state-sponsored businesses. Has that been factored into the Minister's plans?

BIM will be the licence holder but it is not clear to me who is responsible for the cost of cleaning up an environmental mess. Will the State not end up bearing the cost of dealing with the ecological problem? I understand a closed containment plant system has been on trial in Canada and I ask the witnesses to comment on the trial results and whether it minimises or eliminates the risk of sea lice and other pollution?

There is potential for increased employment but all decisions must be made in the context of allowing ten fish farms with a potential to produce 450,000 tonnes of fish. We need to learn from the experience elsewhere in the world and there have been disasters. We need to satisfy ourselves that the inspection and regulatory regime is strong enough to deal with the increased risk from fish farms. There seems to be a difference of opinion between the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine and the members of the delegation on the controls that are in place. The Department claims that the standards of control are among the highest in the world but I would be interested to hear the comments of the delegates on that assertion.

I welcome the delegation and thank them for their presentation. I am from Leitrim and people fish on the River Drowse after Christmas and in January every year and also on Lough Melvin and Lough Gill.

As I travelled to Leinster House this morning, I spotted a fisherman on the edge of a small lake, sitting quietly with a shade over him. It resonates with the point made by Mr. Carr that fishermen come to fish and nobody knows they are there. We all want to promote tourism across the country, as it is very important to everybody, particularly those in my part of the country.

There was a reference to closed-containment plants onshore. Does that mean one builds the fish farms inland rather than out at sea? There is a significant market for farmed fish and while we must consider the possibility of creating jobs, we must be careful not to damage the product that the Federation of Irish Salmon and Sea Trout Anglers is promoting. I gather the closed-containment plants are build inland rather than out at sea. Are there areas of the sea where the wild salmon and trout do not frequent or are they found in all parts of the sea? Are fish lice the problem or does pollution from fish farms cause problems for wild fish? As I am at the learning stage, I will await with interest the response of the witness.

As Deputy Harrington is no longer a member of this committee, he has had to wait until all the members have spoken.

I thank the Chairman for giving me the opportunity to speak. I welcome Mr. Carr and Mr. Lawton to the committee.

People approach the activities built around the salmon from many different avenues, tourism, sporting and commercial exploitation of the fish. I come from an area of west Cork and even on the peninsula where I lived, about 40 to 45 licences were issued in the past for drift net fishing of wild salmon. Drift net fishing was banned in 2007. This caused great controversy, with a loss of revenue, particularly supplementary income for families with small holdings where it is difficult to make a living. This decision was taken to improve fish stock levels by effectively banning drift nets but this has had a negative impact on the livelihoods of local families. The ban has been in place for five years and now people in coastal communities are focusing on the economic opportunities of aqua culture, whether it is fin fish or shell fish farming. They have identified the commercial potential of fish farming, having looked at the Scottish and Norwegian fisheries. They are not reinventing the wheel, as the resource can be exploited and will enable many hundreds of families around the coast to earn a living. The commercial exploitation of the sea must be balanced against seeing the wild salmon as a resource for sport angling.

Some people see salmon as a high quality food, which can be produced sustainably and at a price the consumer is willing to pay. It needs to be harvested but there is a significant domestic and global market for the product. It is not that long ago, perhaps six or seven years ago, when one could walk into any cafe or restaurant in Ireland and one would not find salmon on the menu. It would only be available in specialised restaurants or where one would pay through the nose for it. Now it is readily available and I would wager that it will be on the menu in the canteen today. Salmon that is farmed is now on the menu because it is available and affordable. It is not the wild Atlantic salmon. Many people see the potential in the next five to ten years to increase the production of salmon in the country by seven if not ten fold, if it is done correctly. One must use the best available technology, best available practices and implement the best regulation. I was very interested to hear Mr. Carr's comments on his experience of regulation, whether by the Department, BIM or the information from the Marine Institute. There have been issues.

Both Mr. Carr and Mr. Lawton are approaching the salmon resource from the viewpoint of those involved in the sport of angling. They have provided figures for the revenue generated from angling. Is there a breakdown of the figures to show the revenue generated by sea fishing, sea angling and offshore angling for other species as well as salmon? How much of the total figure is dependent entirely on one species, the wild Atlantic salmon, and to a lesser extent, trout?

The closed-containment system was mentioned. I believe that when the closed containment system can be done, that is the way to go, but I submit that closed-containment system should begin with the smolts. It can only be done if it is a viable proposition. There is no point talking about closed-containment systems in Ireland if one is competing with a Norwegian or Scottish industry or the frightening news we are getting from the Chilean industry, which has been hammered.

There is no point in forcing a closed-containment system on an industry if it is not working and is not viable. It reduced the number of sites and there are other technical issues involved. I would like the witnesses to comment on that.

I would also like to hear their opinion on the Marine Institute figures on sea lice and the implementation of their regulations. We have had problems over the decades with sea lice in some parts of the country, but not in other places. The overall picture is that sea lice infestations have reduced in the past five years by 500%. Much of that results from husbandry, treatment and the way the fish is harvested, as well as timing. There are many ways of dealing with sea lice as well as treatment off shore. It must be acknowledged that what I saw outside my front door 25 and 30 years ago with companies such as Salmara is not the case anymore. Do they believe that the technology, the systems, work practices, regulation and the information from the Marine Institute is leading to an improving situation for fin fish aquaculture?

The witnesses have quoted the Norwegian regulations where they produce more than 1 million tonnes of farmed salmon per annum, which I believe is 90% to 95% of the EU total of farmed salmon. The salmon numbers have increased in their rivers. Similarly in the Scottish fisheries that produce 100,000 to 120,000 tonnes of farmed salmon, the river catch of salmon is increasing by about 5% per annum. We can go into the detail of the different rivers, but the point I am trying to make is that aquaculture will not fill the gap entirely. Neither is this an argument for angling nor for wild Atlantic salmon. We must strike a balance between what needs to be done in terms of sustainable exploitation of a resource that we have and providing a livelihood in communities where nobody else will provide a living for us, a balance between attracting and putting real figures on salmon as a tourism resource. I would like to see figures from Fáilte Ireland in this regard, as well as an examination of whether there is potential for reintroducing wild salmon drift-netting. This debate took place in the Seanad last week. It is a discussion that has been revived, with offshore island and other very small communities which did not avail of a compensation package screaming for the reintroduction of wild salmon drift-netting. It is a very difficult and complex issue.

In regard to Bord Iascaigh Mhara's submission, I have to ask whether it would be preferable, for example, if Marine Harvest or any other company were the initial applicant. Or is it a new departure that BIM would be the applicant, with a licence issued to the chosen company and BIM or the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine being thereafter responsible for regulation? Deputy Michael Colreavy asked a very pertinent question in this regard. We must consider whether, if something were to go wrong, we would prefer to have a private company overseeing the whole thing or, alternatively, to have either BIM or the Department, with all the resources available to them, working to ameliorate any problem like that.

I refer again to advances in technology in respect of nets, cages and husbandry, and the obvious improvements in terms of the reduction of sea lice and of escapees. There is a balance to be struck between matching requirements and how we exploit opportunities. I welcome delegates' comments in that regard.

Mr. Carr seems to be very well read and is well able to articulate his case. I am somewhat confused, however, by the statement that Norway has seen an increase in its rivers' salmon stocks. From what I have read, salmon stocks are decreasing year on year as salmon farming becomes more and more popular.

Going back to what the Minister has proposed, I acknowledge the points raised by Deputy Noel Harrington. It is vital that we take our time before proceeding in a particular direction. Going back to what we discussed at the start of the meeting, salmon farming is sustainable in some ways, but it might not be sustainable when one looks at the bigger picture. Take the issue of parasites, for instance. When farmed salmon escape and interbreed with wild salmon, the latter are either wiped out or there is a huge reduction in stocks. That does not seem very sustainable. We must consider the bigger picture in terms of the Minister's vision for the future. There is a way to go and a great deal of discussion to be had before we leap into action in this regard.

The Senator is right about that. The representatives of FISSTA were anxious to address the committee today and to express their concerns on foot of the presentations we have had from the Minister and BIM. We will also be inviting representatives of the Donegal islands and other island fisheries to share their views, because that is part and parcel of the discussion. Deputy Noel Harrington has given an overview of the broader issue and referred to the concerns of the different parties, whether drift-net fishermen, anglers or the aquaculture sector. It is undoubtedly a complex issue. In fact, the more one learns the greater the realisation of just how much one does not know.

Deputies Colreavy and Harrington and Senators Comiskey and Mary Ann O'Brien raised several specific points to which Mr. Carr may now respond.

Mr. Noel Carr

The Chairman will be glad to know that I have taken notes. I do not want to be a killjoy, but the reality is that aquaculture is not the great white hope that will solve all the problems in coastal communities and replace all the jobs that have been lost there. I am from Carrick - 11 miles from Killybegs - and in 90% of our hinterland, from Burtonport down, all of the jobs are fish factory jobs. We have a crab factory on our river, Errigal Seafood, which produces GB £25 million worth of seafood per year. Effluent from that factory goes into the river on a controlled basis, and we can work with that. Fish factories and fish production units can work quite well. Interestingly, this company actually invested in a treatment plant because it recognised that it was necessary for the survival of the river. With EU standards and guidelines and advice, the river was allowed to sustain itself every year. I take this opportunity to congratulate Errigal Seafood on being 50 years in operation. It was founded as a vegetable factory by Father James McDyer as a means of providing local employment for young people. That river has had 555 fish above the quota this year, which is a commendable achievement for the company. It is not a fish farm industry but a seafood production unit and it supports almost 200 jobs in our area.

The answer to the problems we are discussing can be found in that type of enterprise, and we need more of them. Instead of damaging the environment, this type of activity and co-operation protects and respects it. Farmers have shown the same willingness to engage with us. Years ago we had a serious problem with the spawning beds, when it was common for mountains to be overgrazed. Some of us here will remember mountains in Mayo and Donegal specifically where this was a particular problem, with spawning levels very much down. Instead of objecting to the grants coming from Europe, we sought to work with the Irish Farmers Association at that time. It was out of this engagement that the farm waste management scheme was eventually introduced. I am not saying we were responsible for it, but it was partly as a result of lobbying by the European Anglers Alliance in Brussels and everywhere else that the waste management scheme and rural environment protection scheme, REPS, were devised. Our partnership with farmers worked to the advantage of both, with spawning levels restored and farmers receiving the same money, albeit under a different scheme. There are ways that we can work in partnership together to ensure a sustainable environment for all. We have had a great deal of that in the past 30 to 40 years.

I was asked a broad range of questions, but I remind members that I am an amateur in this area. The rod licence costs €100 for my area and we pay that to Inland Fisheries Ireland every year, in return for which it works with us to protect the rivers. Whether or not we object to some of the positions it takes, we respect IFI as an arm of the State whose function is to protect our rivers. It also has a role, along with the Irish Marine Institute, in monitoring farms. The regulations are not dissimilar to those in operation in Norway, according to BIM's presentation. I do not want to say that what was proposed in this regard is impossible or that it cannot work. However, the way it is currently structured makes things difficult, with BIM saying there is absolutely nothing wrong with the fish farming sector. We have spoken about the decrease in the incidence of sea lice in the past five years, but the amount of chemicals required to achieve that decrease has grown significantly. This has a serious impact on the environment in a variety of ways and not just on salmon and sea trout. There is a joke that fish farmers should now be called fish "pharmers" because of the amount of chemicals they use.

Senator Martin Comiskey referred to the River Drowse. It is one of the jewels in the Irish crown of rivers. Normally, it has the first salmon every year.

My river, the Glen River, is down on the very edge of Slieve League, straight across from the mouth of the Drowes. My river is having many more problems surviving than Senator Comiskey's Drowse, in Leitrim. The scientists' basic argument in that regard is simple. The fish farms are located between Killybegs and Inver Bay. Sadly, my fish, instead of going out the estuary as smolts into the Atlantic, head north with their nose in the zone and end up going through the cages right around Donegal Bay, whereas Senator Comiskey's Drowes fish, if they were there, go the same distance, right around the bay and out through Mayo, but there is less likelihood of them being infested and of half or three quarters of the population dying on their way to the feeding grounds. That is the issue.

RTE's "Prime Time" did a good programme on it in 2003. At the time, Mr. Adrian Lydon went to Norway and looked at the marine institute of Norway's findings on migrating smolts being infested and evidence of it halfway through the feeding grounds. Research has not been done more recently.

The other point I cannot emphasise enough is the importance of keeping the professional State boards, for which we pay and which, perhaps, are quite expensive, and the fresh-water scientists, the Marine Institute and BIM. BIM is under review and there is to be a report on whether it will exist in the future.

Inland Fisheries Ireland has just got a new remould under the Inland Fisheries Act 2010. The IFI CEO, Dr. Ciaran Byrne, wrote to the then Department of Agriculture, Food and the Fisheries on 3 March last year asking to be part of the national implementation group that discussed and explored the implications and plans for fish farming. This national implementation group was no big deal. It is probably another one of these quangos.

Is Inland Fisheries Ireland due to come before the committee?

It is not. Unfortunately, it would be the other committee. Inland fisheries is not under our remit, although Inland Fisheries Ireland could possibly make a submission. We may have to look at some form of co-operation with the other committee.

It is regrettable that there are two Departments involved and that is the way it has been structured. We are getting testimony from Inland Fisheries Ireland which is second hand.

Mr. Noel Carr

I appreciate that.

We are getting testimony on scientific advice, which also would be second hand and based on the Marine Institute.

The Marine Institute can come in.

I would prefer if we got testimony on the sport of angling.

Mr. Noel Carr

I appeal to the Chairman. When I made this submission, it was the Joint Committee on Communications, Natural Resources and Agriculture. The reason it was attractive to me to make is because it was a conflict between agriculture and natural resources. Now that natural resources have been taken away from the committee, does that mean the committee cannot hear me or IFI?

This committee cannot hear IFI unless we set up a joint working group to do a piece of work on that and go back to the two committees, which is something we may have to look at.

Mr. Noel Carr

Okay.

There are other reasons the committee was broken up. It was not to avoid dealing with this issue as a complete committee. The workload on the committee was overwhelming. It had broadcasting, communications, postal services, the Common Agricultural Policy, the Common Fisheries Policy, forestry,-----

-----horseracing and renewable energy.

Mr. Noel Carr

Salmon.

Apart from something like that, many other issues overlapped, in particular, some of the renewable energy matters which we would have preferred to keep if we had time. Not to be too flippant about it, we all were going to end up very busy here and no one in our constituencies knowing what we looked like anymore. We did not instigate the change. We had time lines and at all times we communicated that we would do a piece of work on the smaller areas of fishing as distinct from the Common Fisheries Policy. Unfortunately, we were not in control of what has happened.

We are trying to get Mr. Carr's view on the value of the industry and the impact of other sectors within the fishing industry on it. There is no harm in referencing the Marine Institute and IFI. We must figure out a way in which we will achieve a balance from them as well. We will have the Marine Institute in before us. We have had Bord Iascaigh Mhara. We will probably have the IFA as well. We got these organisations first. We will have all interested parties in. We have done that in offshore oil and gas, and in North-South interconnectors. In everything we have done heretofore, we have done it in that manner. We figured, following on from the Bord Iascaigh Mhara and the Minister's presentations, it was only fair that we first ask these organisations as those who had been most anxious to come in.

Mr. Peter Lawton

On Deputy Harrington's question about angling, there are 95 of our rivers still closed. There is no angling whatsoever in them. There was a statement about all the extra work up the coast that the pens will bring in. We only see 5% out of the 500 who, it was stated, would be employed there.

Galway Bay, where they are proposed to go, is a tourist area. As Mr. Carr stated, with the drift-nets gone five or six years ago, it is only now we can see some percentage of fish coming back into the rivers. It is a little better. We cannot go crying about it because the salmon stocks are still down. If we bring in these fish farms around the place, the sea lice will do damage to what is coming back already. We should promote the wild salmon for the tourist anglers.

If one walks up around Salthill where the pens are supposed to be, it will not be a nice sight to look out at on the bay. At present, there is a lovely bay. It will not be nice to see all these pens out there.

Would Mr. Lawton clarify whether the 95 rivers still closed are all around the coast?

Mr. Peter Lawton

They are spread about the coast.

Are they in areas where there are no fish farms? Is it that, with the drift-net ban, there is a time lag before they build up for other reasons? I ask this specifically because there is an issue with the Avoca River which is a totally different issue. That issue is to do with the underlying heavy metals in the water due to the old copper mine sites. There is evidence of both trout and salmon getting up that river. That issue is nothing to do with this as there will not be a fish farm there anyway. I only make the point. Of the 95 rivers still closed, many have nothing to do with aquaculture fish farms, one way or the other. It is to do with stock replenishment.

Mr. Peter Lawton

The stocks are merely low.

Mr. Noel Carr

In 2006, when the Minister announced it, the rivers were being classified. Prior to that, the resistance to the ban on drift-netting was that there was plenty of stock in the rivers, but after the classification in 2006-2007, our rivers closed.

By the way, our rod licence fee trebled. Licences cost €35 in 2004 and were €120 but are now down to €100 again.

I appreciate Deputy Harrington's concern that we were trying to give IFI's opinion on a third level. I refer members to a press release issued by the IFI on 2 March 2011 which sought co-operation with the Department of Agriculture, Food and Fisheries on a national implementation group. Two date, however, the Department has not granted that request. The level of co-operation that should exist between conflicting Departments in order to offer advice is not there. I wanted to highlight that issue.

In regard to the Norwegian regulations, the habitat and terrain is different in that country. Its fjords are closer to Scotland's coastline in that they offer a wider range of habitat for wild Atlantic salmon. It is also similar to Chile's coastline. However, salmon angling in Norway faces a number of serious problems. The presence of a terrible disease called gyrodactylus salaris requires affected rivers to be completely cleaned. We are worried that the disease may have transferred to Scotland and Ireland.

Deputy McHugh is a good friend of mine but we have differences on certain issues. The 450,000 tonnes to which he referred in an article is three times the amount currently proposed. Assuming that the figure is correct, the magnitude of the proposal needs to be examined to assess its impact on Ireland's coastline. Most of the aquaculture sites would be located along the west coast. The majority of river closures were originally along the east coast because its higher population made it more susceptible to pollution. As aquaculture sites are relatively uncommon along the east coast I do not want to give the impression that salmon farming is the sole reason for the decrease in stocks. There are many reasons, including netting.

Employment creation is an issue in itself. We have a system that is working but Senator Mary Ann O'Brien reminded me of one of the most important questions that we must address. Producing 1 kg of farmed salmon requires between 3 kg and 5 kg of wild fish. Much of the feed given to farmed salmon comes from plankton hoovered up in the Atlantic. That is not a sustainable basis for a decision of this magnitude. The basic statement the Government would be making by supporting the production of 150,000 tonnes is that we should fish as much as we can before somebody else gets in. Approximately 500,000 tonnes of wild fish would be required to produce that quantity of salmon. Furthermore, the production of that level of tonnage would require a significant programme for breeding smolts. As we do not have a programme for breeding smolts they will have to be imported from disease ridden countries like Norway and Chile. We will not be in a position to produce them at the level required because they require freshwater areas. The main production centre for fish farm smolts is in Lough Altan in County Donegal and the River Tullaghobegley will be closed for many years as a result. BIM and the industry need to tell us where the smolts will be produced.

Deputy Harrington raised a good question with regard to the Canadian trials. We are competing with Norway, Scotland and Canada. The equivalent of FISSTA in Canada is the Atlantic Salmon Federation, which became so frustrated at the industry's refusal to invest in research on closed-containment sites that it carried out its own study. At the NASCO meeting in Edinburgh in June, we were given a verbal report on the tests and, more important, the quality of fish produced, which was far superior. However, the industry has not invested in research. Research on closed-containment is being carried out on a refitted mussel site in the Deputy's area. I welcome this if it is to be a closed-containment site because it will be onshore and can be closely monitored and contained.

There is something wrong about an industry that needs to pollute in order to produce. It could be argued that the dairy sector pollutes to produce but its pollution is contained and managed. That sector has gone through a cultural transformation over the past 30 years to the point that we can be proud of it. We are competing with Brazil and everywhere else on quality. Let us compete in the same way with salmon farming. We should not ruin our marine environment and wild fish habitats just because there is pollution in Norway, Scotland or Canada. We appeal for sense to enter the equation. At the end of the day, the EU can subsidise such an approach. There is a crab factory on the Glen River, as well as 200 people working upriver in the spawning beds. EU money made that factory sustainable. The river would have been let go in 1975 or 1980, somewhat like the Avoca. Industry dominates and creates more employment. We were lucky that something allowed our river and its wild fish to survive. There are alternatives to the mistake being made by other countries.

As to revenue from salmon netting needing to be replaced, we have been paying a rod licence fee of €100 for the past five years whereas we used to pay €35. The Government paid €35 million to 1,500 netsmen. They were bought out when there was money and it will not be done again, yet no stocks existed at the time. When the money was turned over, revenue decreased because the eight to 15-week period shortened to two or three weeks. Now that stocks are increasing, netsmen might seek an increased period. Until the 95 rivers are opened and returned to abundance, there is no point in issuing net licences to organisations when there is no salmon to support them. Of 143 salmon rivers, we must open 143. Our raison d’être is to return the fisheries to their former glory. It will be a long haul.

At the North Atlantic Salmon Conservation Organization, NASCO, convention in Edinburgh two weeks ago, we were fortunate to hear that the Greenlanders have agreed not to fish salmon in Greenland's feeding grounds for another two years. Greenland had been threatening for two years to deplete its salmon stocks before they could return to Irish rivers. A Killybegs trawler could clean them out. From the point of view of our stocks, we are hanging by a fine thread. The Faroes have agreed not to fish them in local feeding waters as well. We are trying to spawn more salmon, but the current partnership must continue for the time being. If our partners learned tomorrow morning that we were going to return to netting, they would do likewise and decimate the wild Atlantic salmon stock.

I made the point that the debate had opened. This matter was debated in the Seanad. I listened everyday. That is as far as it goes. The ban has been in place since 2007. I made no other comment. I hope that everyone will accept that this is the way it is.

Mr. Carr is wrong about the efficiency of salmon in converting protein, for example. They are the most efficient converters because they are cold-blooded. They are 80% efficient and one would not find as efficient a food source in this country as salmon.

Mr. Noel Carr

I did not remark on that.

Mr. Carr stated that they were three times-----

No, it was feed coming from the north-east Atlantic in terms of biomass that must be taken to convert into a full carcass.

Mr. Noel Carr

No. May I clarify through the Chair?

Just one moment, please.

Mr. Noel Carr

It takes 5 lb-----

That information can be easily accessed. My understanding is that, because salmon are cold-blooded, they are efficient converters of protein.

This has not been an entirely good exchange of information, as we have only been given snapshots. For example, the ban on drift-net salmon fishing has had a positive influence on the inland fisheries of the people whom Mr. Carr represents, yet I have not seen the figures that support this position. I would welcome them if Mr. Carr had them available.

The anglers organisation lobbied strongly for the ban and I hope that it has achieved results. For example, how many rivers have opened since the ban? Mr. Carr stated that 95 remained closed. What is the trend? It is difficult to claim that a snapshot shows the industry as it has been or will be, particularly in respect of so complex a matter. I have tried to show a snapshot of the improvements in respect of sea lice. I have also tried to show a trend in improvements in technology, escapees, etc. Mr. Carr claimed that Ireland's regulations were similar to Norway's, which were good. He also mentioned the use of EU supports for the Donegal river. We live in the same EU and the same Union standards apply in terms of tolerance for poor practices.

Mr. Noel Carr

Which river?

The river in County Donegal that Mr. Carr mentioned. It is still in the EU, as is ours. Mr. Carr mentioned farming, which has been improved significantly thanks to EU subsidies, the rural environment protection scheme, REPs, and so on, yet I woke up in my constituency this morning to learn of a cryptosporidium alert and a boil water notice. Farming is not perfect.

Mr. Noel Carr

No.

The committee is seeking a balance in its conclusion and depends on the information supplied to it through testimonies. The information provided by the Marine Institute, Bord Iascaigh Mhara, BIM, our own experiences and, in particular, Mr. Carr's organisation is helpful, but it should show trends, identify how issues can be addressed, whether there have been improvements - I hope that there have been - and how those improvements can continue. We are trying to minimise as much as possible the conflict between commercial seafishing, aquaculture and the sports industry. This is the what I hope for from the testimonies we receive. If there is scientific information, I would rather it be given by scientists. This was my point when I referred to inland fisheries. We require an exchange of information.

Mr. Noel Carr

This evening in Athlone, I shall attend the National Inland Fisheries Forum, a voluntary forum for Inland Fisheries Ireland. I want to give the impression that we have a partnership with people on the rivers. We are engaging with them in terms of budgets and management. Quite a number of my organisation's secretaries on rivers such as the Coomhola to which the Deputy referred are still trying to get their rivers open under the standing scientific committee's report on each river. What more must we do and is there a light at the end of the tunnel? Will the rivers be opened in 2015? Sometimes people meet as frequently as weekly to find out what more can they do to re-open their rivers.

Has the situation improved since 2007?

Mr. Noel Carr

Some 95 rivers are still closed.

They were all closed.

Mr. Noel Carr

Yes.

It is the trend.

I am trying to establish a point.

One moment, please. I referred to the eastern coast, where the trend is for the re-opening of rivers. The process is a slow one and Mr. Carr's reference to what might occur in the feeding beds is relevant. This could all be for naught if countries decided to pillage our stocks outside our area of control. We can only negotiate with them through the organisations involved.

Five years on from the drift-net ban's introduction, rivers are opening. Are east coast rivers opening at a similar rate as west coast rivers and does it depend on whether there are fish farms at sea? What is the evidence? We want an objective picture. Is there a trend? If, for example, 45 rivers have re-opened, are they near fish farms at sea or can such farms be identified as the reason rivers are not being re-opened? Are they being opened there at a similar or slower rate and are there a series of factors which influence whether they are opened?

Mr. Noel Carr

The future of aquaculture in the marine environment is the topic for which I prepared. I do not have the data which the Chairman is seeking. Some of the rivers that are opened are opened under brown tag schemes which cover temporary situations. For example, anglers were allowed to fish the River Liffey for a certain amount of time this year. Some are opened based on the recommendations of Inland Fisheries Ireland or the standing scientific committee that angling on a river, albeit on a catch and release or brown tag system, which ensures they are better policed, protects it. That is the reason they are open and not because stocks are improving. It is not that because staff numbers on fishery boards are reducing increased angling effort is being returned.

I will make a new submission to the joint committee tomorrow or the next day on the exact number of rivers involved. That information is available in the standing scientific committee report.

It would be helpful for the joint committee to have that statistic. What we could decipher from that statistic is - overlaying that with where there is a population, mines and fish farms at sea - if there is a trend that indicates a general re-opening because stocks are improving. Given the migratory habits of salmon, there are a whole lot of factors at play here. It would be helpful if Mr. Carr could forward us the relevant statistics.

We get the picture, as I am sure does Mr. Carr. There is a balance to be struck in terms of sustaining our wild salmon population. Deputy Harrington summarised it as a need to strike a balance between commercial fishing, sport fishing and the aquaculture industry. It may be that the Federation of Irish Salmon and Sea Trout Anglers believes one is exclusive to the other in so far as aquaculture offshore is exclusive. It is an either-or situation between it and river stock salmon. That appears to be the trend, based on Mr. Carr's submission. Perhaps I am wrong.

Mr. Noel Carr

I appreciate that but we are giving a clear angling point of view. Deputy Harrington has teased this out a little. The questions which have been posed are amateur in terms of answer. The professional answer is contained in what is stated in this regard by Dr. Paddy Gargan of Inland Fisheries Ireland and Dr. Dave Jackson from the Marine Institute. These are the people who are qualified to answer those questions. I am merely, in layman's terms, relaying my reading of the situation.

I do not think anyone is questioning the entitlement of the organisation that represents inland anglers and fishermen to give its opinion in terms of how it believes other factors are impacting on its sector and the industry that is behind it. We will be inviting in representatives of the Marine Institute who will be objective. We will also be inviting in representatives from the IFA who, like our witnesses today, will probably be subjective. That is what we are required to do. It is what we have done in all other hearings we have held. We need accurate facts. We can then move on from there.

With regard to ten multiplied by 15,000 adding up to 450,000 tonnes, it sounds to me like someone has made a calculation error. When I went to school ten by 15,000 was 150,000. I do not know from where the 450,000 figure came.

I am not trying to cut anybody off but I think we have the general gist of FISSTA's position. Mr. Carr may make further submissions on foot of any other hearings, which are all held in public. If he cannot attend, transcripts of the meetings will be available on the website.

Information such as a breakdown in terms of fish caught off shore, at sea, sea course angling and river angling would also be helpful to the joint committee. Fáilte Ireland has provided us with statistics in the past, which I do not think were included in Mr. Carr's presentation, in regard to the specific value of angling to the tourism industry.

Mr. Noel Carr

With regard to Fáilte Ireland, Inland Fisheries Ireland is currently undertaking a study on the value of angling. It will not be complete until the end of this year. We do not have an accurate up to date figure in terms of value although every other industry appears to have one.

I thank Mr. Carr and Mr. Lawton for attending and for their contributions. I have tried to ensure an open and frank discussion, which is what everyone expects and is how it should be. I appreciate that this is an issue close to the witnesses hearts and that they were anxious to appear before the joint committee.

Given the crossover in this area between Departments, we must consider how best as a committee we can pursue this area. However, that is a matter for discussion by committee members at a later stage.

The Donegal islands representative group will appear before the joint committee next week. I thank members and former members for attending.

The joint committee adjourned at 4.10 p.m. until 2 p.m. on Tuesday, 3 July 2012.
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