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Joint Committee on Agriculture, Food and the Marine debate -
Wednesday, 15 Nov 2023

Challenges Facing the Horse Sport Industry: Horse Sport Ireland (Resumed)

The second session of today's meeting, to discuss the control and planning of the weighing of fishery projects with various fishery representative organisations, has been deferred to another date. I remind members and witnesses to turn off their mobile phones.

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The purpose of the meeting is to resume our examination of challenges facing the horse sport industry. The committee will hear from representatives from Horse Sport Ireland, namely, Mr. Michael Dowling, chairman; Dr. Kevin Smith, board member; Mr. Denis Duggan, chief executive officer; Mr. Killian Carroll, chief financial officer; and Dr. Sonja Egan, head of breeding, innovation and development. They are welcome. Their opening statement has been circulated to members. I would say the statement is longer than the five minutes but as we have no second session this evening, we will allow the witnesses the time needed to go through it. On conclusion of the opening statement, we will open up the discussion to questions from members.

Mr. Denis Duggan

Horse Sport Ireland, HSI, deeply appreciates the invitation from the Chairman and members of the committee to attend and discuss challenges facing the horse sport industry and update the committee on our progress since we were last before it in June. We will provide updates on progress in a number of initiatives and outline some challenges we have experienced.

I am pleased to inform the committee that, since June, HSI’s high-performance programme for athletes in showjumping and eventing has delivered substantial successes to Team Ireland equestrian. Our showjumping team, managed by Michael Blake, won a silver medal at the European Championships and event rider Austin O’Connor won the prestigious Maryland 5 Star last month in the United States. Our underage squads have continued their tremendous successes at young riders, juniors and children age levels in jumping, dressage and eventing.

Prior to 2008, international high-performance sport was managed by Showjumping Ireland, Eventing Ireland and Dressage Ireland at all levels. In 2008, the year HSI was established, Ireland won one international medal. In 2023, Team Ireland, supported by HSI and Sport Ireland, has won ten underage medals, an 11th silver medal for the senior jumping team at the European Championships in September and a 12th silver medal at individual level for Michael Murphy in para dressage, again at the European Championships.

Members may recall from our presentation in June that HSI is a national governing body for equestrian sport, recognised internationally by the Fédération Equestre Internationale, the Olympic Federation of Ireland and Sport Ireland as the governing body for equestrian sport. As such, HSI operates high-performance programmes to support Olympic-level athletes and athlete participation internationally.

The results we have achieved this summer are fantastic as we prepare for the Olympic Games in Paris next year. They are also an important economic shop window for the breeding and production of horses, especially young horses, in the Irish rural economy.

That shop window will also benefit from programmes operated by Horse Sport Ireland such as the World Breeding Championships for Young Horses, supported by Horse Sport Ireland with funds from the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine.

Exports of horses in 2022, exceeded €400 million in value to the economy annually, with approximately €185 million in exports of sport horses, including performance and rare breeds. Excluding those involved in the thoroughbred racing sector, we estimate that the sport horse sector employs approximately 47,000 people, both directly and indirectly, and is worth in excess of €1 billion to the Irish economy annually. International successes by Irish riders, supported by HSI high-performance programmes and by breeding and production initiatives, are an important revenue and avenue for breeders and producers to source markets for their horses.

Moving on to governance, in June, we informed the committee members of our consultation process on proposed governance changes to the selection methodology for equine industry directors to the board of HSI. We opened a public consultation and submissions from various stakeholders were received by the time the process closed in August. Those submissions have been published on our website and are being actively considered by the board at present. As part of that exercise, Horse Sport Ireland has engaged with and met a number of the stakeholders which provided submissions to that process. We are awaiting formal responses from those we have met, with a view to further possible suggestions and further input on the Government's reform. This input includes a commitment from the organisation to re-establish high-performance advisory groups, which we did early this summer in eventing and dressage and also in jumping and para equestrian, and we are awaiting nominees from Showjumping Ireland and Para Equestrian Ireland on that front.

There is also a very clear need in the organisation to establish the previous advisory council that existed in breeding and production, recreation and leisure, education and coaching, and high-performance. Once the selection process for the independent directors is clarified, we will be moving to reconstitute those committees in a new format.

Our consultation paper, which can be downloaded from the HSI website, clearly states the aspiration to move away from an elections and constituency model of board membership towards a skills-based board, which is very much in line with a more modern approach to corporate governance. The consultation document proposed an open call to all equestrians to apply to become directors of HSI. Once a prospective candidate is a member of one of our affiliated organisations, or a member of an active stakeholder group within the equestrian industry, he or she can either apply directly for consideration as a director or be nominated by his or her affiliated organisation. There is a misconception that non-equine industry candidates will be selected to join the board, but the document clearly states that this is neither the intention nor the desire at this time.

It is further proposed that an external selection panel will select and recommend the most suitable candidates to join the board of HSI on the basis of the appointment of a skills-based board. The selection panel will also ensure gender balance and the open call gives every equestrian the opportunity to apply for consideration as a director. It broadens the pool of skilled people available and willing to join the board of directors of a complex organisation such as HSI. Members will be very much aware that conflicts of interest, especially where unaddressed, have led in the past to many issues within the various iterations of the board of HSI over the past 15 years. This new approach opens up the process so that all equestrians can be considered by the independent panel, thereby providing a wider pool of possible applicants available to join the board and also reducing possible conflicts.

Since June, Horse Sport Ireland has held its AGM and lodged its accounts with the Companies Registration Office. Members may be aware from recent equestrian media coverage of the fragile nature of those accounts. The financial statements outline the risks relating to the funding model for the organisation and its dependency on grants from Sport Ireland and the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. The business is confident of its ability to continue as a going concern, although the balance sheet is fragile due to losses incurred in recent years and the funding model, by which we mean the timing of grant payments we receive from State funders. The management team, board members and I have embarked upon a comprehensive assessment of strategies to strengthen the financial position of the organisation to ensure its long-term sustainability as a going concern. This plan is already showing an impact in 2023 and we will strengthen the position further in 2024.

With respect to governance within the Horse Sport Ireland affiliates, HSI, with Sport Ireland funding in 2021, commissioned a two-year workshop programme specifically aimed at assisting HSI’s 20-plus sport and recreation affiliates to become compliant with the Sport Ireland governance code. Senan Turnbull, a governance expert in the Carmichael Centre, undertook a series of governance workshops to which all of the affiliates were invited to send two participants each over the past two years. The workshops are practical in nature and they charted the work each organisation needed to undertake so as to achieve compliance. While many of the affiliates participating in the workshops have seized the opportunity presented to them to enhance their overall governance, regrettably, some organisations have not fully attended the workshop series and their actual progress towards compliance with the code is not fully clear at this time. To this end, however, Horse Sport Ireland has sought assurances from each of the Covid-19 grant recipients, of which there are several, to provide statements of assurance of their own compliance and from the boards on the expenditure and governance upon which they have embarked, including independent assurances from each of their external auditors.

I will address passporting issues because I am conscious that some Senators and Deputies may have received some queries regarding this. We recognise that there are delays in the issuance of horse studbook passports. There are two primary reasons for the delay. First, we initiated a migration project last year, migrating from an older DNA parentage testing system known as microsatellites, MS, to single nucleotide polymorphism, SNP, known as "snips". SNP DNA testing has been used - as many will know - within the Irish cattle industry since 2009 and horses are the last remaining species on the microsatellite technology. This migration began last year, with the retesting of 10,000 older samples from notable and active breeding mares and stallions to build a new reference library for future DNA testing. However, where a stallion or mare has not been captured in the initial 10,000 batch done in 2022, breeders have experienced delays where the parents of foals need to be tested on the SNP platform prior to the foal being tested on the SNP platform again and those parents verified. This has not been ideal and has been a source of delays in issuing passports which normally take approximately 40 working days to complete and the DNA testing element taking 20 of those days, in and of itself. This issue is affecting all equine studbooks, not just Horse Sport Ireland. It affects all of the studbooks that are involved in the transitioning from MS to SNP.

Second, in the context of passport delays, we have also seen significant staff turnover within our passporting team in particular. Of 17 staff members employed in the passporting unit, in the buoyant employment market this year, eight have opted to leave the organisation since January and two others are on extended leave. This creates lags in recruiting replacement staff and training and upskilling delays. Historically, HSI has recruited a considerable number of graduate entry staff, a matter I touched on in our discussions in June. As with most graduates, many move on within two or three years from their first job post graduation. In exit interviews, staff have cited higher salaries on offer elsewhere as the main driver in their decision to leave the organisation.

Separately, and also in the context of passporting, we are undertaking a tender process to procure a provider to develop a digital e-passport system, which will ultimately speed up the efficiency of our administration of paper passports and provide a new digital passport offering to breeders. As I said, this system is under tender, with a provider due to be selected before Christmas and the system to be operational during the summer of 2024.

On financial supports, Horse Sport Ireland has played a significant role, on behalf of Sport Ireland in particular, in the administration of public funds towards equestrianism. The beneficiaries of almost €3 million in funding since 2020 have been HSI affiliates and stakeholder groups, the largest recipients being Eventing Ireland, Show Jumping Ireland, Dressage Ireland, and the Association of Riding Establishments, known as AIRE.

From earlier amounts provided to the committee, HSI has completed an evaluation of the final round of Covid-19 supports. These amounts were allocated in October 2023. In total, Horse Sport Ireland has administered €2.8 million in Covid funding and participation grants funded by Sport Ireland and the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media from 2020 to date into the affiliate family. In total, there were five rounds or schemes of Covid supports offered by Sport Ireland and administered by HSI to the industry. In the early months of Covid, the focus of grant aid to sporting and community and voluntary organisations was on efforts to shore up losses in revenue and membership so as to prevent organisations from either winding up or having mass redundancies. Members will remember that from early 2020. HSI allocations to affiliates followed a similar pattern in the first round of that Covid funding. As the rounds evolved, the supports to sporting bodies receiving grants from HSI changed to support staff training, volunteer training, restart grants to encourage new club activity, encouragement of return to sport and physical activity within those organisations.

Separately, participation grants are an annual small grant scheme for new projects or initiatives supported by HSI. Affiliates apply each year and can receive amounts up to €10,000 per affiliate to encourage new initiatives and projects that encourage more participation in equestrian sport. Grants have varied from initiatives such as supporting Eventing Ireland to undertake a strategic plan; funding coaches in Dressage Ireland for a series of “Try Dressage” days around the country; expanding membership in pony clubs in economically and socially disadvantaged areas with the Irish Pony Club; and providing education and training for volunteers in RDA Ireland, which provides opportunities for individuals with physical or intellectual disabilities to ride horses or carriage drive. Over €300,000 has been allocated since 2020 in participation grants to affiliates.

The final dimension of Horse Sport Ireland supports included direct financial sponsorship to affiliates to promote equestrianism. In 2021, for example, Horse Sport Ireland provided €55,000 to Showjumping Ireland in direct sponsorship for the premier showjumping series. As members can see in the table attached to our opening statement, in the past three years alone, a substantial amount of taxpayers’ money has been invested by Horse Sport Ireland, on behalf of the taxpayer, with the support primarily of Sport Ireland, into encouraging and maintaining participation in equestrian sports. These figures do not take account of the additional €950,000 that has been invested by Horse Sport Ireland this year alone, with funding from the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, in breeding and production classes in showing, jumping, eventing and dressage events around the country. Of this amount, more than €500,000 is allocated to over 60 rural shows the length and breadth of the country, along with €420,000 in a suite of studbook and development series events in jumping, eventing, dressage and combined training for horses and ponies. Members will be interested to know that equestrian venues do not receive a direct benefit from these events but they do receive a substantial indirect benefit as most venues that host major events, such as a round of the studbook series, could receive between €5,000 and €11,000 in entry fees from competitors, depending on the number of competitors participating in the event.

On behalf of Horse Sport Ireland, we hope this provides some clarity for members on the funds provided to affiliates in recent years, while also giving an update on some of the successes we have achieved and some of the challenges we are dealing with. We welcome this opportunity for engagement with the committee and thank members for their time.

I welcome the witnesses before the committee. I just want to concentrate on one issue. One of the burning issues I am dealing with on a weekly basis is that of horse passports. Anybody I have spoken to either in my constituency or outside the constituency is not very complimentary of HSI, and I do not blame them. If I was applying for a passport three years ago, how long would it have taken?

Dr. Sonja Egan

Three years ago, the wait time would have been approximately four to six weeks.

I had a constituent phone me today who applied for a passport the first week in July. Is this satisfactory or unsatisfactory? Maybe the CEO will answer that for me.

Mr. Denis Duggan

In an ideal world, it is absolutely unsatisfactory. We recognise that. For applications coming in this year in particular, the transition from microsatellite testing to single nucleotide polymorphism, SNP, testing, is causing further delays. If everything works properly in the system, and by that I mean the breeder having completed all the paperwork that needs to be completed, having the veterinary marking chart and cover certificates from the stallion owner, and all of that paperwork is correct, it takes about four to six weeks, as Dr. Egan outlined, even today. That also depends on having both the sire and the dam SNP tested on the new platform. If that is not done, that will add at least an additional 20 days to the testing process because either the sire or the dam will need to be tested on the SNP platform. What we have found this year in particular with that transition is that a lot of the hair samples that have been returned have not been of good enough quality to test. That has caused significant delays, which we have worked through with our DNA lab partner to reduce the timescale involved. We found earlier in the summer that on average, around 30% of hair samples received failed the initial DNA testing. That has been reduced to about 5% at the moment, which is more in line with the annual norm. About 4% or 5% would fail even in the old system. All of those things have compounded delays. If for example we have a passport application but neither the sire nor the dam has been SNP tested, that will add almost a month, at least, to the delay if we do not get a sample. With stallion owners in particular we have had delays in receiving hair samples from some stallion owners and that can delay the issuance of the passport to the breeder.

What percentage of passports applied for in 2023 would have been processed in less than four weeks?

Dr. Sonja Egan

We do not have the exact figure in terms of a four-week turnaround in the delivery but we will take that away-----

I ask the witnesses to furnish the committee, through the clerk, with the percentage of passports that were applied for this year and the duration it took for them to be processed. It would be very interesting because I have not spoken to one breeder who has had their passports processed in less then two or three months, and I have spoken to quite a number of them. Breeders will be going to the sales now and they will have to get a letter from HSI to say they have applied for a passport. They could wait six months for the passport to be processed and they will not get paid for that horse. Am I right in saying that?

Mr. Denis Duggan

That is correct in terms of the sales process-----

I am sure Mr. Duggan is aware of Leisure Horse Ireland. Is he?

Mr. Denis Duggan

Yes.

How is that organisation able to get its passports processed through Weatherbys in a swifter timeframe of half the time it takes with HSI? Maybe Mr. Duggan will say HSI totally changed the testing regime and all that but I am sure there would have been some form of lead-in time. Presumably the organisation does not just pull down the shutters and say that now people have to wait months and months. I have many other examples but one breeder told me today that he had applied in July. He has waited for July, August, September, October and into November. He was told it could be the first part of 2024.

Horse Sport Ireland talks about its governance and about funding to its organisation. What funding does the Government put into the organisation?

Mr. Denis Duggan

In respect of passorting function, none.

No, what I am saking is how much the Government puts into his organisation. I presume that Government funding goes right across the organisation with regard to staffing and everything like that.

Mr. Denis Duggan

The Government funding cannot be used for staffing in the passporting function. The passporting function is run commercially with the exception of some small amount of funding for specific areas which are funded under the equine technical support scheme. With regard to the rest of the Government funding, it comes from the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. It is a little over €5 million for national breeding services and we receive around €2 million from Sport Ireland, and again, that is to fund high-performance sport.

Why is Leisure Horse Ireland able to process its applications through the very same organisation, Weatherbys Ireland, which Horse Sport Ireland is using and Horse Sport Ireland is unable to do so. Is it because of the change in testing?

Dr. Sonja Egan

I will take that question, please, Deputy Kehoe. Within Ireland, there are a number of organisations which are authorised to issue passports which are called identification documents. These are non-stud book passports and the organisations can decide which way they want to register the animal within that, whether that is with breeding recorded or without it. Horse Sport Ireland and other organisations within the country are authorised to do this. With regard to our own turnaround of an identification document, or with the equivalent of Leisure Horse Ireland, our turnaround is two weeks. That is without breeding recorded. They are not using the same systems.

As Mr. Duggan referred to in the opening statement, many of the delays culminate in the transition from microsatellites to SNP. The identification documents within our own section which are recording breeding are also using microsatellites. However, all of the new stud book passports for foals are issued on the Single Nucleotide Polymorphism, SNP, platform. In order for us to issue a passport with foal breeding recorded we need to ensure that we have the sire and the dam on the SNP platform before we can verify foal's parentage against it.

If the breeder has not filled up all his or her paperwork correctly and everything like that, would the blame or fault be then put back to the breeder?

Dr. Sonja Egan

Absolutely not.

Whose fault is it then?

Mr. Denis Duggan

There is a combination of issues there. With the paperwork we receive from breeders, about 70% of the applications received require some follow-up where some piece of information is missing. It may be payment details, marking charts, or it might be a cover certificate from a stallion owner verifying the covering of the mare. As I said, about 70% of applications require some element of us following up with the breeder and seeking additional information before we can start issuing the passport. On top of that, we have the issue around the SNP testing which, regrettably, is causing a delay this year.

Does Mr. Duggan believed that his organisation is fit for purpose to be managing the processing of horse passports?

Mr. Denis Duggan

We are working on our efficiency and one of the issues we are addressing with regard to our own administration, as I mentioned in the opening statement, is that we have lost a considerable cohort of staff in that unit. That has an impact with regard to staff training and the ability to meet demands this year. We are also tendering for an e-passport system which will improve our own efficiencies internally as well as aid services for the breeders. This will enable the breeder to apply for some of the things they are applying for today on a paper form electronically which, therefore, will hopefully reduce the number of errors on both sides.

Mr. Duggan said there were a number of staff working in the passport section. How many were working in that section?

Mr. Denis Duggan

There were 17 at the start of this year.

How many staff are working in the passport section today?

Mr. Denis Duggan

Today we have 15, with two members on extended leave, parental or maternity.

So there are 15 staff members working there today.

Mr. Denis Duggan

Correct.

How many of those staff members are new and needed training, and all such matters?

Mr. Denis Duggan

Seven to eight such members but we can provide confirmation on that to the committee.

Why does Horse Sport Ireland believe that staff just want to leave his organisation, where there are many other organisations competing in a buoyant economy? Is it that they were just not happy in it?

Mr. Denis Duggan

There are probably two reasons for that. As we said in the opening statement, when we do exit interviews with staff, they will cite salaries elsewhere as one of the main drivers for their decision to leave. The other issue, where we have spoken in the equestrian media about this in recent weeks, is the level of abuse which staff in the organisation have to take from breeders, both online and in phone calls. That is regrettable, not appropriate and we want to cut all of that out.

I would not condone that.

Mr. Denis Duggan

Unfortunately, it impacts on staff well-being and they have to leave for a combination of these reasons.

When the organisation was going into the new format of DNA testing it has introduced through Weatherbys Ireland, would Mr. Duggan as CEO and other senior staff members not have thought of the implications and the time it was going to take to process new applications? I am sure that when his organisation was bringing in new processes, it knew there were going to be delays and teething problems. If there was going to be additional paperwork, or whatever to be done by the breeders and the whole way up along, did his organisation give or offer these breeders any training and mentoring before this new processing was introduced?

Mr. Denis Duggan

Dr. Egan might address that question. Before she does, in the context of training and mentoring, there was not any requirement for training and mentoring with regard to this SNP testing because-----

What I am saying is that Mr. Duggan states that if the breeders had not got the correct information on some of their correspondence or paper, or what ever the position is, did Horse Sport Ireland not offer any mentoring or training, or whatever, to explain that in two years' or in 12 months' time that Horse Sport Ireland was changing the processing and that there would be a need for breeders' applications to be absolutely in order, with every piece of information the breeder would put on any form being required to be completely 100%?

Mr. Denis Duggan

In the context of the administration - I will ask that Dr. Egan address the SNP issue in a second - we have brought in a checklist for breeders to help them review what they are submitting to us, to tick the box they have submitted, the marking charts or the cover certificates. We have a checklist to aid breeders to ensure that the application is complete and we also have a number of videos and tutorials online which we have offered to breeders to aid them in the completion of the paperwork and to assist the administration.

Dr. Sonja Egan

Yes, absolutely. I thank Deputy Kehoe for his question. On the SNP testing and a lead-in to the transition, last year we completed what essentially was the building up of a reference library so that we could have these foals' parentage tested against their sires and their dams. In essence, this meant was that across the stud books that we engaged, we tested up to 10,000 animals so that they could be included on the SNP reference library.

That then would be the lead for future years. A policy changes applied early this year to DNA testing. The project was adapted, which meant that the SNP testing was applied live to foals and was also applied to the adults to mitigate any additional costs to the breeder. This, effectively, means that the SNP foal is tested at 30% cost to the breeder and is 70% funded by the Department of Agriculture Food and the Marine. If the adults needed an SNP test, they were tested at 100% of the cost by the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. Some of the changes which we brought in to support the breeders at the start of the year, and in collaboration with our lab partners and our other stud books, were to try, essentially, to get ahead of the foals which we knew were coming. Not all of the stud books have these policies and procedures in place due to their own stud book rules. Certainly, we moved to test, for example, by collecting hair samples when we are out at events or if we knew that these animals were not already captured and were coming in. We captured those initial 10,000 animals by taking, as Mr Duggan referred to, the most active animals in the breeding herd. These were the top sires and dams which have been producing over approximately the past three years. We also went out to our stud book inspections to such animals which had been using some of the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine's schemes specifically for breeding, which we also tested.

The new processes or system which Horse Sport Ireland will be introducing or testing is out for tender at the moment. Am I correct in saying that?

Dr. Sonja Egan

The e-passporting system is.

What is Horse Sport Ireland's projections of the processing of a passport?

Mr. Denis Duggan

This is largely driven by-----

Hold on. It should not be driven by anything. I am sure the witnesses have looked at projections, but they are going to introduce a whole new system. They have to look at what my projection is. They will spend significant amounts of money on this new system. It is out for tender at the moment. If I was in the private sector and was introducing a new way of doing something, I would say that, at the moment, it is taking five months, and that when this is introduced, I will shorten that, or maybe halve it, to two months. I am sure the witnesses have done some sort of projection planning on it. If they have not, I would scrap it.

I am not a breeder. I am just representing constituents and their anger. I am getting that anger from them as a public representative. That anger could be brought to the doors of Horse Sport Ireland. I would not like to see it happening but that is what people are talking about. This is the type of anger that exists. People are on their knees financially. Horse Sport Ireland has horses roaming the country with no passports, but just a letter from Horse Sport Ireland. If any breeders are listening this evening, they would not be inspired by the witnesses' replies.

Dr. Sonja Egan

Regarding the e-passporting system, I want to make it clear that the physical document will still remain the key document. That is governed under the legislation. The e-passport will only be issued after the physical document is issued. As it stands, the DNA testing takes 19 to 20 working days, so we are still looking at approximately four to six weeks to issue a passport.

Dr. Egan said four to six weeks, but the man I spoke to this evening has been waiting since 1 July.

Dr. Sonja Egan

I understand. There are a number of reasons under the SNP testing programme for which that may have happened. I cannot speak to a specific case but some of the examples include having received a foal for SNP testing, and the sire and dam might not be on the SNP testing platform. In order to do that, once we receive that application, while I do not know the specifics of that case, we send a request to the individual for a sample from the dam. We will also have tried to request a sample from the sire. I will give an example from one of our stud books. Some 500 new sires enter the breeding programme every year, some of which are outside Ireland. We need to try to get samples from those stallions too, which can be a challenge. If a sample fails, our laboratory partner sends it through the testing platform a second time. We estimate that it takes 15 days to go through the first time. If it is sent a second time, that takes another 15 days, so that is 30 days in total. Our partner then notifies us that perhaps the sample is not working and we write to the breeders to ask them to re-sample. There are several cases where there are delays. As we have mentioned, the transition from microsatellites to SNP has not helped this.

Are any applications processed within 20 days at the moment?

Dr. Sonja Egan

That is the duration that DNA testing takes.

I did not ask that.

Dr. Sonja Egan

That is the duration, so issuance of a passport-----

No, no. This is either a yes or no answer.

Dr. Sonja Egan

It is not, because it is not within the timeframe of delivery of a passport.

Is any application being processed within a month?

Dr. Sonja Egan

I cannot tell the Deputy that off the top of my head. I can get back to him about that.

Dr. Egan is head of-----

Dr. Sonja Egan

Head of breeding.

And passports. Dr. Sonja does not know the reply to that question.

Dr. Sonja Egan

I know that, this year, we are taking an average of eight to ten weeks.

Is any being processed within eight to ten weeks?

Dr. Sonja Egan

The average figure at this point in time is eight to ten weeks. Some are taking more and some are taking less.

All I can say is that anyone I have spoken to says it is taking months.

I welcome the witnesses and thank them for their opening statement. I will follow on from my colleague on the issue about the passports. Will the witnesses elaborate on the e-passport that they are proposing to put out to tender and the timelines for that proposal?

Mr. Denis Duggan

This is largely driven by the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. It is funded under the Brexit adjustment fund. We have opened a Europe-wide tender exercise to select a partner to deliver the system. That is currently under the tender process. Because it is under tender, I ask the Senator to forgive me for not giving information about the number of applicants and so on. I can say that we expect the full tenders to be received by the end of this month and to evaluate them with a view to having contracts signed before Christmas, and to initiate the design and build of a new system in the new year, subject to all the necessary internal approvals and approvals from the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine.

That technology probably follows from something that is in the bovine herd and will last maybe 15 years, if we look at how we register calves. It is online and works in a matter of minutes. One can do it in the shed and by the time one gets back above, one will have the card the next day. We are looking at a system that will not work as fast but will have the similar trait of delivering on the ground. A database of mares and stallions will be achieved at that stage, so the online system would be time-efficient. Is that appropriate?

Mr. Denis Duggan

That would be very fair. We have looked, in the scoping of our own future system, at what the Irish Cattle Breeding Federation is doing in the cattle world and have taken learnings from it. With the way the legislation is written in the context of horses, we still have to issue the paper document. There are probably more complications in a horse passport than in an identification document for cattle. The aim is ultimately to have the timeframe down to the minimum possible, bearing in mind that there are still 20 days, as it currently stands, in the DNA testing. The admin on either side of that will be greatly reduced by the digital system.

My last question on that point is about the legislation itself. I looked at it during the week. Does a point need to be made to clarify that legislation, with the new digital world we live in today, regarding physical paperwork being part of the application all the way through? In many ways, legislation is written appropriately on the date it is written. Has time moved on with regard to the legislation? What are the witnesses' views on moving to a more digital platform?

Mr. Denis Duggan

We would welcome a change in the legislation. It is driven by the European animal breeding regulation, so it is Europe-wide legislation that needs to change. Within those regulations, primary is put on the physical paper document and an allowance is made to use a digital e-passport. When one is moving to the digital, even in the context of designing a solution to create an e-passport, it is a challenge to try to manage the paper version too and to have both up-to-date simultaneously. These are all challenges in the context of the current legislation which the design team that will be selected will have to overcome.

I welcome Horse Sport Ireland's opening statement. It is five pages long. It is good at setting out what the witnesses are doing. I missed the last meeting on these issues. The last page of the opening statement outlines an expenditure of nearly €3 million going to affiliate organisations from 2020 to 2023. Will the witnesses clarify that page, please? These organisations all received money through Horse Sport Ireland as an overarching organisation for different issues in the last three years. That is what that page states.

Mr. Denis Duggan

That is correct.

Information was given at a previous meeting stating there were issues where other affiliates were not getting money. At least €2.8 million, which is nearly €3 million, was dispensed through Horse Sport Ireland. That was for issues from Covid measures, all the way through to additional grants. Is that page of the report perfectly correct?

Mr. Denis Duggan

Correct.

We need to note that.

May I ask about Horse Sport Ireland's funding and how it actually operates? The opening statement mentioned that a lot depends on grants from Sport Ireland and the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. There was also mention of a potentially precarious position in the accounts. Where do the witnesses believe the organisation is going regarding that funding issue and how everyone involved can be given security? What are HSI's long-term plans for that funding model?

Mr. Killian Carroll

The financial statement outlined the existing challenges as regards the funding model. On what we are doing going forward, we have arrived at forecasts for the next 12 to 24 months and have also considered cash flows. We are looking at both of those in the process of budgeting to minimise the number of projects that are not economically viable so that, at a minimum, we will break even. That is an important aspect of our management of that issue. We are reviewing costs and making sure they are tightly managed. They are some of the things we are doing with a view to the future. We are also looking at revenue streams that might be implemented within the organisation to ensure we continue to break even and to ensure our financial stability into the future.

On HSI's funding of shows, it was mentioned in the opening statement that the organisation had supported 60 shows. I am not sure whether it was in the written statement or just stated verbally. How is that funding distributed? Is it for an event within the show or is the show itself supported?

Dr. Sonja Egan

The organisations running these shows apply to us for funding at the start of the year. In many cases, they will apply in respect of certain classes, all of which are young horse classes, which means anything from a foal to a horse that is seven or eight years old. Details of the more than 60 shows that are funded are all published and available on our website. An independent panel reviews the scoring system to make sure it is fair and an allocation is made to each individual show. Horse Sport Ireland pays out the vast majority of prize money for these shows. The arrangement is that the organisations behind the shows sign the terms and conditions and, on completion of the show, submit a show report to us for verification, following which we pay out.

My last question is on the work HSI does with pony clubs, particularly in disadvantaged areas, and expanding that project. It is a unique element of what HSI does on the ground. How many pony clubs does the organisation work with? What kind of feedback has there been about the project?

Mr. Denis Duggan

I do not have that information to hand but we can certainly get it for the Senator. We are involved with the umbrella organisation for pony clubs rather than with individual clubs around the country but we can get the details. We are also working with a number of organisations involved in equine therapy, including ChildVision in Drumcondra and RDA Ireland. Many would know that last body as the Riding for the Disabled Association Ireland but it recently rebranded as RDA Ireland. It is an affiliate of the organisation and we work with it. We would be happy to provide the Senator with more detail afterwards.

I welcome the witnesses. For the record, I will declare I have no vested interest. I have horses but they are racehorses and so fall under Horse Racing Ireland's remit. To many viewers-----

Why does the Senator not have a fence put up?

They are donkeys.

They are too slow and they cannot jump so I would never get into Horse Sport Ireland. However, many viewers would not differentiate between the two bodies and might say I did not declare an involvement in the game. I have some involvement but not really. Maybe I should go showjumping with my horses. I have a few questions. One quick question is on the licence issue. I get a lot of representations on registration, the passport and how long things are taking. Deputy Kehoe has dealt with the issue and I will not go over old ground but I have one quick question on it. How much does it cost an owner or breeder to get a passport and to register a foal?

Dr. Sonja Egan

The cost of full registration is €129. That includes the cost of DNA analysis.

That is a profitable process for HSI. It surely makes a profit out of the registration process at the end of the day, irrespective of the time issues. It is a commercial venture for HSI as well as a necessity.

Dr. Sonja Egan

To clarify with regard to the Senator's first comment, I am conscious of the issues with the transition to single nucleotide polymorphism, SNP, testing. It costs €129 to register a foal. If a microsatellite test is required, there is an additional lab charge of €31.50. That allows us to verify the foal's parentage.

If that test is required, it is €160.

Dr. Sonja Egan

That is correct if a microsatellite test is required. On the question of profit, we are a not-for-profit entity. I might let Mr. Carroll speak a little further about this but the revenue generated through the sale of passports supports other stud book activities, such as mare inspections and stallion inspections.

It is not profit as such. The money goes towards other internal purposes.

Mr. Denis Duggan

It is reinvested within the industry.

I will move on because Deputy Kehoe has covered the issue. I will not call it "profit" because HSI is a non-profit organisation but, if it does not cost it €160 to provide a passport to an owner, irrespective of how long it takes, there is a margin involved. Why is that not being used to increase staff numbers or to improve the terms and conditions of existing staff when staff leaving to take up better offers elsewhere is used as an excuse for the backlog? There is a steady flow of income from this service. It is €160 per foal and there are a lot of foals in Ireland. In HSI's internal accounting, could it not ring-fence passport money for passport production, avoiding the situation of people leaving to get better terms and conditions elsewhere? It would pay for itself. Instead, money from passport income is being siphoned off to run other parts of the organisation. It would solve the biggest problem I come across with the general public and horse breeders and owners. It is self-financing. The opening statement says that the reason for the backlog is that staff are leaving and that the reason for staff leaving is that they are able to get better terms and conditions elsewhere. With this opportunity for self-financing, management should not have allowed that to happen.

Mr. Denis Duggan

I take the Senator's point. We increased the price of a foal passport at the beginning of the year. Historically, the passporting function has barely broken even. As Mr. Carroll outlined earlier, part of the reason for the increase was to generate more funding. There was a combination of things this year. The increase in the price of the passport brought us more in line with what other equine stud books charge. We had been below some of the other stud books in Ireland until we increased the price. In this year of all years, we were not entirely sure whether the market would continue to support our stud book or whether owners would move so we took a prudent approach with regard to staff replacement. Having said that, we have replaced those who have left but there is a lag between someone handing in his or her notice and a replacement beginning work. It must also be borne in mind that everyone who leaves the organisation, whether they have six months' or two years' experience, takes a level of institutional knowledge with them and that it takes some time before their replacement can operate at the same capacity, even if they come in the day the other person walks out the door.

I got that from Mr. Duggan's answer to Deputy Kehoe and from the opening statement but the opening statement also mentioned that terms and conditions were one of the reasons for people leaving. Far be it from me to tell Mr. Duggan how to do his job but, as public representatives, we are having to answer these questions on the street and, if I were in his shoes, I would ring-fence passport money to invest it in staff to ensure these problems would not arise, letting other areas fend for themselves. This seems to be the biggest issue at the moment. As Deputy Kehoe has said, we hear about it on the ground.

I just wanted to put those few questions but they were not meant to be my starting point at all. Is it correct that the current board is still an interim board, appointed by the Minister?

Mr. Michael Dowling

Yes, we are.

I read what was said in the opening statement about the process and the consultations undertaken in the appointment and make-up of the new board. Will the witnesses tell us a little bit more about the numbers to be appointed by affiliates and by the Minister? When is it proposed to have a more democratic board in place?

With a view to that, the last time Mr. Dowling was with us he said he would set out on a campaign across the country to talk to all the affiliates. At the time, he had met two of them. How many he has met in person now and how are those meetings going?

Mr. Michael Dowling

On that particular issue, we do not envisage that the size of the board will be any bigger.

What is the size of it at the moment?

Mr. Michael Dowling

There are nine members on the board - four appointed by the Minister, four from industry and one from Northern Ireland. The consultation paper set out a way we could broaden the constituency from which we would draw new industry members. Obviously, the affiliates have a variety of views on that. We are in the process of meeting them and listening to their views. We met five of the affiliates jointly within the last month. They are to come back with a more formal position on their suggestions. There are three or four other affiliates who have given views on the consultation document and we are in the process of setting up meetings with them. I would envisage that those meetings will take place within the next week or two. After that, we have to sit down and take account of their views, as well as the views we set out in the document. What we are trying to do is to get a broader range of people to come on to the board, taking account of the fact that we need greater diversity and that we also have to have gender balance. The old system of appointing people to the board was not necessarily capable of giving us the gender balance. It will be a couple of months before we will be in a position to move forward on the appointments.

Move forward as in having a process or having a board?

Senator Lombard is going to take the Chair. There is a vote in the Chamber.

Senator Tim Lombard took the Chair.

Will it be a couple of months before HSI has a process in place to appoint a board or a couple of months before it will have an actual board?

Mr. Michael Dowling

It will be two or three months before we will have the additions to the board.

On the tour of duty to meet the affiliates that Mr. Dowling told us he was on the last time he was here, how is that going and how many has he met? I think he said he had met two or three at that stage.

Mr. Michael Dowling

I have met about eight at this stage.

Is that individually? Earlier, Mr. Dowling said he met with four or five of them collectively regarding the----

Mr. Michael Dowling

Sorry. I have met a couple of the collective ones separately and individually as well.

How is that going?

Mr. Michael Dowling

It is going okay. I would not say that everybody we have met is wholly enamoured of Horse Sport Ireland.

Would Mr. Dowling say that is the case for anybody he has met? What we are getting from all affiliates is that none of them are too enamoured with HSI.

Mr. Michael Dowling

There are 26 affiliates.

I know there are two sides to every story but much, or all, of the correspondence we are receiving from the affiliates is not very complimentary of HSI. I will be honest about that. It is on the record in a lot of places because it is by email that we are getting a lot of correspondence.

Mr. Michael Dowling

Some of them are certainly not enamoured and some of them are. They have different asks of Horse Sport Ireland that are not all the same. We are there to do a job, and that is what we are doing. We certainly need the additional members, because we need a greater input from people with industry experience. We are in the process of getting that.

I know Mr. Dowling has said that the process is still ongoing but when it comes to finalising that board, if there are ten or 15 affiliates who think they should have a representative on the board and HSI has to whittle that down to four, how does HSI propose to do that without making a bad situation worse, among the affiliates?

Mr. Michael Dowling

As of now, what we are proposing is that the people who are members of affiliates or who are endorsed by affiliates apply to become members of the board, and we will make the selection from the people who apply to become directors.

Who will make that selection?

Mr. Michael Dowling

We will have an independent panel to make that selection. We will not make it. From the responses to the consultation paper and from the meetings we have had, there is not a huge amount of agreement on how that will be done. There are certainly some affiliates who want direct access without going through any process. At the end of the day, we have to come down on a system that is reasonably fair to everybody.

How was the old board appointed?

Mr. Michael Dowling

The chairs of the committees were members of the board.

How many members were on that board?

Mr. Michael Dowling

It was the same. There were four from industry, four ministerial appointees and one from Northern Ireland. We have not been able to appoint the Northern Ireland member because under the present arrangements, it requires nomination from the Minister of Agriculture in Northern Ireland. In the absence of a Minister of Agriculture in Northern Ireland, there cannot be a nomination. We are in the process of finding a system whereby there will be a nominee from Northern Ireland, but we have to make some change to our constitution to allow for that. We certainly will have a member from Northern Ireland. The numbers on the board will be the same. There will be one from Northern Ireland, four from industry and four ministerial appointments.

I am with Mr. Dowling. I assume that the Minister will have the right to approve the four appointees from industry.

Mr. Michael Dowling

I am not sure that he would want to do that.

I do not think he would. I think it is almost commonplace for the Minister to have to rubber-stamp the appointment of the four members from industry. Has that not been discussed?

Mr. Michael Dowling

No. In the past, the Minister did not have to approve the appointment of the four committee chairs who became members of the board.

Reading HSI's opening statement, I note that it started off very positively. I keep a close eye on the performance of our international competitors, and we are on the crest of a wave at the moment. How does HSI see us going in the US and Australia? We are going into France in a very strong position.

Mr. Denis Duggan

We are going into France, particularly in showjumping, as the world number one team. It is probably a mantle that does not sit well on Michael Blake, our team manager, especially when we look at other sports that have had the same status going into big championships in the past. In the context of the LA games or Brisbane in 2032, to be honest, it is probably far too early to look that far ahead. We have to get through Paris first. Hopefully, we will win a medal there. That is the aspiration across-----

There is a reason I am asking the question. Does Mr. Duggan think that the current situation and the goings-on in the board might have an effect on the teams in the future unless things are sorted out shortly? The ground work for the France games is done, and we are in a good position going into them. I am just using the Olympic teams as an example. We have international competitors in non-Olympic sports or that have not qualified for the Olympics who are still competing very well internationally. If this thing is not sorted out quickly, will it not start affecting future teams and competitors going forward?

Mr. Denis Duggan

To be fair, I do not think it is an issue around the structure of the organisation or the board make-up that will determine success in LA or Brisbane.

We are being told that there is serious friction between showjumping, equestrian, dressage and HSI. The boardroom eventually filters down to the team.

Mr. Denis Duggan

That is the exact point that I was about to make. The way things are currently structured is not helpful. Those three affiliates are dressage, eventing and showjumping. In the case of showjumping, for example, a levy is collected from all prize money at national level for international participation. That levy is supposed to be provided to Horse Sport Ireland as part of matched funding with Sport Ireland money. In an ideal world we get a contribution from Showjumping Ireland and match that two for one with funding from Sport Ireland to fund participation in the international team. The frictions and tensions, as the Senator referred to them, mean that in 2023, we have not received any certainty or confirmation from Showjumping Ireland that it will make its contribution, which in the past would have been €100,000 towards the international jumping team. We do not have that at the moment.

That is why I am asking. Momentum will carry us into Paris.

Mr. Denis Duggan

That is correct.

Thereafter, if there is not a resolution to these types of problems where are we going?

Mr. Denis Duggan

Yes, momentum only carries you so far. Things need to be paid for, team managers need to be paid, vet fees, entry fees and so on need to be paid. The State investment through Sport Ireland is incredibly important at the moment because the absence of confirmed funding from any one of the affiliates challenges the programme. We are constantly engaging with the affiliates to try to receive the confirmations and in fairness, it is not a ubiquitous problem across all of the affiliates. Eventing Ireland has indicated what its contribution towards the Olympics programme next year will be. We are in discussions with it about a four-year agreement thereafter from Paris to Los Angeles in order that everybody, both Horse Sport Ireland, HSI, in terms of programme planning and programme design and equally the affiliate in terms of its own financial planning, know that in any given year between Paris and Los Angeles what contribution is expected from the body to fund the programme. That, to be honest, is the ideal scenario for both parties and we are engaged with Eventing Ireland in putting that framework in place. We have had discussions and have referenced doing it with the other organisations but have not reached the same understanding with them.

I thank the Chair. I am conscious of time. I might come in at the end depending on how it goes with other participants.

First, I welcome the team from Horse Sport Ireland and the horse sports industry. As the topic on our agenda that was circulated to members was that we were dealing with the challenges facing Sports Ireland and the industry and as it is a resumed topic, the witnesses have been here previously. I am always conscious that these sessions are seen because people always look in and these meetings are broadcast so I am very conscious of that. I know from emails I have received that many people will be watching the meeting tonight so it is always important to keep that focus on the questions but also the responses.

I do not suggest the witnesses do it today but will they send the committee a memo about the nominee for Northern Ireland and the background and impediment as to why that cannot be currently filled? Mr. Dowling suggested he would come up with some proposals. It is important, in that Northern Ireland has a strong tradition of equestrian sports across all of that fields and it is right that we should have a nominee from there. That is a given. I have had correspondence on this with the Minister over the past two weeks because I followed it up with him and it is a good issue. That is certainly looking like one board member being filled in that jurisdiction, or coming from there. Of course the other important thing is the skill sets. We have been filling boards up and I have served on a number of boards but we need skill sets. People have to have sets of skills they will bring to the table. If we need governance or finance, there is a whole gamut and range of skills and that has to be a precursor for nominees of any boards. I take on board the issue of gender balance and that is also a consideration. That is a request of Government and the policies around that are important. Will the witnesses agree to send a briefing note on that to the committee in order that we have a greater understanding of the issues, if that is possible? Does that meet with their approval?

Mr. Michael Dowling

That is no problem

That is great. I am conscious of time, so I will push on.

I have a question about the status of the Minister's nominees. The Minister currently has three nominees on Horse Sport Ireland's board. He could have brought four, has the exercised the four? Okay, they were brought in with various skill sets and are very able and accomplished people. What is their status? I will tell the witnesses what my understanding is before I finish the question. I understand they are serving on an interim basis and that it is not envisaged they will be there for the full term. That is not to say the Minister may decide to proceed to give them a new warrant of appointment. It also is not certain whether all of them wish or want to stay or feel they have done their bit. That is another part of the picture. What are the witnesses' understanding of those four members currently, and their terms?

Mr. Michael Dowling

Two of them are present.

Okay, I am not asking them to say whether they are interested in staying. I am sure they are busy people but what is their status?

Mr. Michael Dowling

We are appointed as what was called an interim board. In law we are the board. The board requires a quorum of three to operate and we are four. Therefore we are a board. The initial word to us was that we would be in place at least until after the Paris Olympics. My understanding is that the intention probably would be that some or all of us might be asked to stay on.

Or they might be asked to step aside.

Mr. Michael Dowling

As to whether we particularly want to stay on is another thing. That is a-----

Deputy Jackie Cahill resumed the Chair.

That is a consideration that you might consider. That is fair enough, I just wanted to get the scene. The understanding is that while it is called an interim board, it is envisaged it might stay for the full term. Of course it is the Minister's prerogative to reaffirm the appointment.

Mr. Michael Dowling

Yes.

Okay, that is grand. HSI had its annual general meeting in June.

Mr. Michael Dowling

Yes.

According to HSI's own report that it presented on today, it says that its balance sheet is fragile. They are HSI's words, not mine.

Mr. Michael Dowling

Yes.

There are serious concerns then, therefore, about the current funding model. Will the witnesses share with the committee, one, their concerns about their fragile balance sheet, and two, their current funding model? Is that a criticism of the current funding model or could it do better or would the witnesses like to see a whole new funding model? Will they tease that out with the committee?

Mr. Killian Carroll

I thank the Senator. The statement around the fragile nature of the balance sheet is basically that the net assets of the business are €73,000, so that speaks for itself. That is what the directors are referencing, in that they note the nature of the balance sheet and the fragile aspect to it. The thing about the funding is that the two largest funders are the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine and Sport Ireland. All of our money comes from that. The nature of the funding model for one of the funding partners is that it is a spend-and-recoup model. That is the nature of it and we work with that as best we can. It creates challenges for us but we also need to ensure we manage that in the best way we can, which we do. It is not a criticism of the model. It is what it is and we have to work with it. There are things we can do within our own organisation which I spoke about earlier such as managing our costs, our cashflows, ensuring that any non-economically commercial models we have are brought to a case where we at least break even. Obviously there is a vocational aspect of this organisation in terms of what we do for the industry. We need to have one mind. We are a not-for-profit organisation in that sense but also we need to make sure we at least wash our faces and do not fall into loss.

Does Mr. Carroll have plans or proposals for, or has he considered, another funding model? Would he like for it to be different and in what way would he like it to be different?

Mr. Killian Carroll

It is for our funders to determine how best to do that.

This is a forum where Mr. Carroll has an opportunity to put his stake in the ground.

We are interested. There are budgetary considerations in the Lower House. What is Mr. Carroll's view? Does he have a considered view about a new funding model that he would like to share with us?

Mr. Killian Carroll

What we are working on for the time being is managing our own costs and funding in the way we can. The aspect of spend and recoup creates a good bit of pressure in that regard. At the moment, for example, we are processing a lot of claims and reclaiming money. That creates a lot of pressure within the organisation and, obviously, we always have one eye on cash flow and how quickly we can dispense. It would be beneficial if we had more cash upfront and it was not as much a case of spending to recoup, but that is-----

Has HSI made that case to its funders?

Mr. Killian Carroll

We have spoken about the challenges that are created with the current model and I think they acknowledge it, but there are constraints from that side as well. What we need to do is focus on how best we can manage it ourselves, and that is what we are doing-----

HSI is going to stick with the model, therefore, that is not very satisfactory but is the one it is happy to work with.

Mr. Killian Carroll

I think there are things we can do to help ourselves around planning. For example, a lot of our schemes take place around this time of year, in October and November, and if we can pull some of those schemes to earlier in the year, perhaps we can manage it in a different way. That is what I mean. There are certain things we can do to help ourselves-----

Yes, by being a bit more creative.

Mr. Killian Carroll

Yes, but challenges exist whereby you have to spend a penny to get a penny.

I understand, and I thank Mr. Carroll for sharing that with me. I am conscious I had to leave the meeting to go to the Seanad for a while, so the issue of developing an e-passport may have been covered. What is the level of progress or the timeline for that process to be completed?

Mr. Denis Duggan

It was covered earlier but I am happy to brief the Senator on it.

No, that is grand. I will pick it up in the Official Report. In any event, it is progressing well.

Mr. Denis Duggan

Yes, we are in the middle of a tender exercise and it is expected to be-----

I understand that, but how is the finality? What is the time trajectory or the timeline for completing that process?

Mr. Denis Duggan

The tender exercise is due to be completed by the end of the year, with contracts signed, ideally, by then, and the selected partner will then have until the summer to have a new system built and live.

Mr. Duggan mentioned direct financial sponsorship. What sort of direct financial sponsorship is HSI in receipt of?

Mr. Denis Duggan

Does the Senator mean sponsorship we are in receipt of or sponsorship we administer?

Mr. Denis Duggan

Given we look after the Olympic teams and the international teams, that is an opportunity for direct financial sponsorship into the organisation to support high performance. Regrettably, we have not been able to attract any major international brands, for whatever reason, which is something we are constantly exploring, but we have a number of very valuable domestic sponsors and we are always looking for more. Some of those sponsorships relate to product in kind, but others are financial. As the Senator will appreciate, some of them are commercially sensitive at one level.

In terms of what we administer to the industry, we provide what some people refer to as sponsorship, although in a lot of cases it is grant administration through things such as the national breeding services. Senator Lombard asked earlier about rural shows. Some of those shows will call that sponsorship but, in fact, it is a grant we administer on behalf of the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine into those shows. In regard to the specific reference the Senator highlighted, we gave €55,000 in direct sponsorship in 2021 to Showjumping Ireland for its premier series.

The horse sports industry is an amazing industry with a very positive story. You would imagine it would attract big international sponsorship, or at least strong Irish sponsorship. It is a good story to tell. Does Mr. Duggan think the public concerns, or the view in some quarters and, more important, in the equestrian quarter, which is the one relevant to HSI, have impacted on the industry's capacity to attract brand sponsorship? I think that may be part of it. A lot of it is about perceptions, and I want to be fair here. I have great time for the witnesses' organisation, and while there have been tough times, as there have been for many organisations, there is always learning. Nevertheless, there is clearly a certain degree of hostility within people very close to this industry and that has to be a concern to the board and to Mr. Duggan as chief executive. In the context of international brand sponsorship, does he think that hostility in any way contributes negatively? I hope these issues will be resolved and, clearly, there is more work to be done.

Mr. Denis Duggan

The Senator makes a good point. When we look at, for example, some of the other international teams, a lot of their main sponsors are very embedded in equestrian sports and rural pursuits, if we can call them that. I think issues with social licence, horse welfare and so on can be challenging for some sponsors that have no experience of either equestrian sports or the broader rural pursuit type of activities. Finding a sponsor that is comfortable in this space is a challenge. In our context, as I said, we have some very valuable domestic sponsors, but the Irish high-performance showjumping team compete on every continent. They are completely international. Our squad of athletes numbers in excess of 25 in the senior high-performance programme and are based everywhere from Kentucky and Abu Dhabi to Wellington in Florida, Calgary in Canada, the UK and Germany. They are scattered all over the world and compete all over the world, which, on one level, should be very attractive for a sponsor. One of the big differences between our side of equestrianism, if I can call it that, by comparison with, say, the racing industry is that there is no betting involved in our side. As a result, a lot of the sponsorship seen in the thoroughbred world of races and so on is not really open to us. That is a challenge in itself, along with other issues.

I thank the witnesses and genuinely wish Horse Sports Ireland well. It is a great story to tell and I hope that, sooner than later, we can get more collegiality and support from the key stakeholders, because that is critical. There is potential for damage and fallout from all this if we do not get it sorted, and that is important. The witnesses constitute the board and it is challenged with the responsibility of running this organisation, so I genuinely wish them well.

I apologise for not being in the room for the witnesses' opening statement because I had to go to the Chamber, but I watched it being broadcast.

I might focus on the issue of passports. I am increasingly concerned by what I am hearing from producers. HSI has been awarded the €3.5 million contract from the Department of Education for the new e-passports, which is significant. It is my understanding there were three tenders, namely, one for the national breeding programme and one for the equine e-passport, both of which HSI successfully tendered for, and a third tender was awarded to the Irish Horse Board for marketing and promotion. As Mr. Carroll rightly pointed out, HSI is funded almost exclusively from Sport Ireland and the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. Is it correct to say HSI took a judicial review or challenged the outcome of those tenders?

Mr. Denis Duggan

I might just clarify this because the Deputy may have confused a couple of matters. We are involved in a tender exercise ourselves to secure an e-passport solution. It is not that the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine has tendered for it. We are doing that ourselves to secure a supplier. Within our tender contract documents, which are publicly available through the e-tender portal, we have estimated the value of that to be €3.5 million, so that is where that figure comes from.

Separately, in the context of what the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine tendered, in February 2022, the Department tendered for three sets of services that had traditionally been undertaken by Horse Sport Ireland.

In February 2022, the Department of agriculture tendered for three services which traditionally had been undertaken by Horse Sport Ireland, HSI. We won the tender for national breeding services. Dr. Egan and her team are directly involved in the administration and provision of those services.

The second tender was in three lots which was stud book services for the Irish sport horse, Irish sport pony, Irish draught, Irish cob and the Irish part-bred cob. They were separated into three individual lots and we won those tenders. The third tender was for international marketing, which, as the Deputy pointed out, was won by the Irish Horse Board, IHB. The previous board had agreed to take a judicial review, but that was abandoned in December 2022.

Was that before Mr. Duggan's time?

Mr. Denis Duggan

No, I joined the organisation as CEO in January 2022.

Did Mr. Duggan pull the plug on the judicial review?

Mr. Denis Duggan

It was a board decision. Within our constitution, the issue of litigation and deciding to litigate is a board matter, and equally the decision to withdraw from litigation is a board matter.

Obviously, this is a peak time for producers of foals. Based on the information I have been able to glean, approximately 70% of foals sold through the sales houses in the last number of months did not have passports. Of the 140 foals sold in Cavan, it is estimated that 40% of them had passports, which was reasonable given the next figure. In Goresbridge, 565 foals were presented and just 65 of those had passports. All the sales houses are, correctly, withholding the moneys that have been paid for those foals until a passport can be provided. Obviously, the producers of the foals have to bring them back home, and maintain them in anticipation of their money coming through. All the while they are being frustrated by the delays of a State body, HSI, in this case. Is that not a damning indictment of the body's handling of the passport process and of the way producers are being treated?

Mr. Denis Duggan

Earlier we outlined some of the delays we have been experiencing. The delays are regrettable. Perhaps Dr. Egan can speak to this further. Earlier we discussed issues around the DNA testing process being undertaken this year which is causing a delay. Under normal circumstances, the passport turnaround time is four to six weeks and at the moment, the average turnaround time is eight to ten weeks. We appreciate some breeders are experiencing a longer wait because of the DNA testing.

The bulk of them would be experiencing delays. A breeder called me this morning. She had a foal and two yearlings which she applied for in May. For the two yearlings she had to get the DNA testing done at her own expense from another stud book. She has the two yearlings done. She has the stud book for the foal, a pure bred Irish draught horse, but is still waiting on that. May is well past the average waiting time, which Mr. Duggan suggested. This is an accomplished breeder who would have all her paperwork in place. That is indicative of the types of calls I get from breeders. They tell me that the situation is calamitous, and is indicative of a lot of the wider issues plaguing HSI at the moment.

Dr. Sonja Egan

In terms of the issuance of the yearling passports, I cannot say if it is a different organisation they went for. I cannot say whether it was an identification document they received or whether it was a stud book passport. I just want to reference that.

Regarding the Irish draught stud book passport, as Mr. Duggan mentioned, it is very regrettable that these delays have happened. However, a policy decision was made at the start of the year as to how DNA analysis would be carried out. That brought on the change to have the foals registered on the SNP platform instead of the microsatellite platform. Therefore, if that breeder's dam and sire were not on the SNP platform, we had get those which would of course have delayed the parentage verification of the foal against those parents.

Dr. Egan will appreciate that there is an animal welfare issue here as well. If it goes past six months before issuance, it will be stamped that they cannot enter the food chain. Everybody who produces a foal thinks they will be world beaters and will never have any anticipation of them entering the food chain but clearly there is an animal health and welfare issue with this as well. Is that not the case?

Dr. Sonja Egan

Absolutely. On average, we are looking at eight to ten weeks for the issuance of a full passport. We do not want to breach that level.

HSI is not hitting those targets at present.

Dr. Sonja Egan

That is the average figure as of today. Certainly some breeders will have experienced longer delays than that but there will have been breeders who have had much quicker turnaround times.

In the run up to Christmas, can Dr. Egan give any assurance to those breeders who brought their foals to Goresbridge and Cavan and who effectively sold them? When will the passports issue for those foals?

Dr. Sonja Egan

I cannot give an assurance for an individual case that I do not have to hand.

I understand, but I am asking more generally for all the foals that HSI has applications for at present. When does Dr. Egan envisage those being cleared?

Dr. Sonja Egan

The plan and the programme at the moment is to have 400 foal passports issued per week until Christmas.

Will that clear all of this year's foals?

Dr. Sonja Egan

A small number will bleed over into January.

Would about five and a half thousand foals be a fair estimate?

Dr. Sonja Egan

We have approximately 4,900 applications at the moment. We have issued more than 1,100 of those passports. If we issue an additional 400 per week, it should bring us up to that 2,000 figure, so it will be a couple of hundred under.

I will stay with the passport issue. Historically, we had the green book and the blue book and now we have what is colloquially known as the white book. Because of the delays in the passport, many breeders are opting for the white book, which excludes a lot of the breeding history. This is regrettable at a time when we are trying to emphasise the importance of Irish breeding and Irish sports horses and particularly the influence of the Irish draught horse. Surely HSI cannot countenance or stand over that happening. This is surely a regressive step for the organisation.

Dr. Sonja Egan

Absolutely. In terms of some of the applications we have seen this year, that has not been reflected. Of course, there are cases where a breeder has opted to go for the colloquially known white book the Deputy mentioned but there are other issuers in the market who issue these identification documents. Breeding can still be recorded on an identification document if a breeder so wishes, but obviously the encouragement would be to remain with the stud book passport to ensure this pedigree is recorded and the animal is entered in a stud book.

I want to come back to the composition of the board. We have heard from all the affiliates and we have spoken to many people across the industry. It is fair to say that nobody within the industry is happy with the proposed composition off the board. Notwithstanding what Mr. Duggan said about discussions with the affiliates, is HSI going to persist with its plans for the board or will it revert to the old system where the board members were selected from the advisory councils? I ask this question given the opposition to what is planned and given HSI's dependence on these affiliate bodies.

Mr. Michael Dowling

I cannot give a definitive answer yet. We cannot go back to exactly to the old system because that did not guarantee gender balance. That is one of the things we have been looking for. We are also looking at the possibility of having a more diverse board. We have met most of the people who gave views on the consultation document. We have another three or so to meet and that will be done within the next couple of weeks. We met five organisations in the last few weeks. The meeting ended with them agreeing that they would jointly submit a document setting out what they would like. We have agreed to consider that and we will be doing the same with the remaining three organisations and we will see where we go from there.

What I have gleaned here is that the only issues with the old system of the advisory council are gender balance and diversity. Is that the case?

Mr. Michael Dowling

They are not the only issues, I suppose.

They are the two issues Mr. Dowling mentioned.

Mr. Michael Dowling

We are looking for a wider constituency from which to draw new directors.

We take into account the fact that any new director coming from the industry would have to have important equestrian experience. Also, they would have other skills that would be beneficial to the board. We have to find a mechanism for doing that. We suggested one mechanism and we are now awaiting the views of others about what they would like.

We need gender balance and diversity. Mr. Dowling's key point was that they must bring experience in the equine sector to it.

Mr. Michael Dowling

Yes.

There may be an argument that one could bring in experts in accounting and law who may not necessarily have expertise in equine. I do not think we would be that far removed from the old advisory council system if the affiliate bodies were able to come back and comply in terms of gender and diversity, as we have seen with the FAI. Would that be fair to say?

Mr. Michael Dowling

We are still looking for a wider range of skills if we can get them. As I said, we put out what we would have liked as the ideal way-----

But the industry does not like that.

Mr. Michael Dowling

Well-----

In fairness, you serve the industry.

Mr. Michael Dowling

We are prepared to consider alternative suggestions if they come in.

I have just under two minutes left. There is one point I would like to address with Mr. Duggan in relation to the recent appointment of Bernard Jackman to a role in Horse Sport Ireland. Was that discussed with the affiliates before the appointment? Was it advertised? Who specifically identified the need for this role? Did it come from the affiliates? Where did this role come from? This is no slight against Bernard Jackman, whom I greatly enjoyed watching as a rugby player.

Mr. Denis Duggan

No, it was not discussed with the affiliates. We generally do not discuss internal appointments with affiliates. They have no role in that. We do not expect to be involved in discussions about their recruitment of either contractors or employees. That works both ways.

In the context of Mr. Jackman’s appointment, we are delighted to have him on board from here to the Olympics as our acting head of high performance. On an interim basis, he is covering work that was traditionally done by a senior member of our team, who will be on extended leave from now to the Olympics. He is covering that.

The Deputy asked whether the role was advertised. It was not publicly advertised, but we did go out to a number of people who had the experience and we sought a number of proposals from individuals. There was a competitive process. Mr. Jackman came out at the end of that.

I have one last question. As was said, he will be dealing with the affiliates in the run-up to the Olympics and it is astonishing that HSI did not discuss this with the affiliates, tell them it was going to make this appointment, give them an outline of the job specification and get some input from them. Surely, it would have thought that would have been a prudent approach.

Mr. Denis Duggan

Like I said, we do not get involved in their internal appointments for any consultants. They are autonomous and so are we. He has already met with one or two of the affiliates at this stage about their ongoing support of the high performance programmes. Again, they do not have a role in the internal appointments that HSI makes. As I said earlier, the Deputy must bear in mind that this is a role that until Mr. Jackman’s appointment had been filled by a senior member of HSI staff who is on an extended leave. It is not the case that this is a brand-new role that has been created. It is to cover someone who is on leave.

I call Deputy Fitzmaurice.

I thank the witnesses for coming before the committee. First, does HSI have anything to do with the Connemara ponies?

Dr. Sonja Egan

Under the contract we deliver, they are able to avail of a number of schemes. For argument’s sake, they are involved in the microsatellite to SNP transition.

Does HSI have governance over them and look at what is going on? It seems that a lot of attempts are made for extraordinary general meetings, EGMs. We had a lot of difficulty under the green, low-carbon, agri-environment, GLAS, for rare breeds in the line of stud books. It was tough going for some farmers. Did the HSI have a look at that? We get a lot of correspondence from people in relation to that.

Mr. Denis Duggan

We have no direct role in their governance. We have in the order of approximately 26 affiliates, but another eight or ten organisations are associated with the organisation.

Do you give them money or anything?

Mr. Denis Duggan

Not directly. They are participating in the SNP transition project, which is about moving from microsatellites to SNP testing and passports. They would have had a seat on the previous breeding advisory council, so we do have a relationship with them.

Separately, there is a piece of work we have started to think about. In the last number weeks, we had a discussion with the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine about putting some type of governance expert in place and to make that available to the breed societies to assist them with the challenges. That is a piece of work that we are actively involved in at the moment.

We have done this with the sporting organisations. In the opening statement, I referenced the sporting affiliates that are affiliated to the organisation. Mr. Senan Turnbull has been available in a workshop-type capacity to help them on their governance journey. Yet, the breeding affiliates, of which the Connemara Pony Breeders' Society is one, have not had the same benefits. We are looking at addressing that imbalance and we will be doing that before Christmas.

In the new system of DNA and the stud books, why jump from one thing to another? Why can HSI not run two things in parallel? It is under pressure to get stuff out to the people. Why does it not look at other ways? It is either full duck or no dinner. Surely to God a system should be trialled so that it could be done within a certain length of time. Then, if it was failing, it should have a back-up system for a period of a year or two years to smooth it out and make sure there were no delays. Then, when it is perfected, it could work away. Why has that not been done?

Dr. Sonja Egan

There was a policy decision external to Horse Sport Ireland as to how the DNA analysis-----

Who took that decision?

Dr. Sonja Egan

The Department.

The Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine.

Dr. Sonja Egan

Correct.

When it was getting the information, did HSI flag that there would be delays?

Dr. Sonja Egan

There were engagements with the stud books.

No, I asked a question. Did HSI flag that there would be delays?

Dr. Sonja Egan

Yes.

The Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine insisted on keeping going.

Dr. Sonja Egan

Yes.

That is perfect. That is interesting.

Unfortunately, I am not an expert in horses. Yet, any time I come in, there is litigation going on, committees are resigning, and one is looking at the other. Is all that over? What is the story with all this litigation? Has that been parked to one side? I understand this is an interim board. When does it think it will have all the people sitting down together so there can finally be an agreement? The taxpayers are giving lots of moneys to different groups. It is as simple as that. There is nothing worse than seeing fall-out. The general public is looking at this, seeing figures being given and looking at everything going on in the background. Even the ordinary person who does not know much about it will raise their eyebrow and ask about what is going on there. That is not good for the industry. We need to make sure that it is positive.

The positive side of it is in the area of show jumping. A person might not know damn all about a horse but can watch the show jumping, which they like. Irish horses are doing well. There is a good market for them in different countries. What is the lie of the land there at the moment?

Mr. Michael Dowling

The issues to which the Deputy referred with regard to litigation, etc., were largely legacy issues and we believe they are now largely finished. As I said earlier, we would hope that within the next two to three months we will have completed the exercise in getting new members on to the board so that we would be a full board of nine people rather than an interim board of four people. As I said, we would expect to have completed all of that early in the new year.

Mr. Dowling spoke earlier about how different groups were not happy that there were not some people from their side or background on it. Can the board be made bigger to accommodate or try to bring a happy family together for once? This is the last thing I will say. We should talk to the Department to ask if it has been flagged about the delay and see that it actually persists with it. We should be looking at that as a committee. I thank the witnesses very much.

Dr. Kevin Smyth

If we look back on the history, we did have a previous board on which were 19 members. Indecon found that to be very unwieldy and I would agree with that. The problem is that when there are 26 affiliates, they all want to be on the board in some shape or form. I believe what we need here is the board of nine. It is the view of the interim board that we need it fully filled and we need it done as quickly as possible. However, we need a level of compromise whereby the four members who come on from the industry will represent the entire industry and not just their own particular interests in that regard. We should stick with the board of nine and try to fill it as quickly as possible.

I thank Deputy Fitzmaurice and call Deputy Kerrane.

I thank everyone for their presentations and detailed submission to our committee. I was out of the room so some of these questions may have been asked already. I apologise if I have missed some of the answers. I have a number of questions based on the opening statement, the first of which relates to governance. Obviously, the selection of board members is really important for the organisation. Moving to a skills-based board is positive and I think that will work well. I wish Horse Sport Ireland well in that process because it will obviously take time. How long did the consultation process run by Horse Sport Ireland go on?

Mr. Denis Duggan

We appeared before the committee in or around 20 June and it had opened that week. If memory serves me, it closed formally around 17 August. The applications we received have been discussed and considered by the board. We had further engagement with a number of the organisations, as referenced earlier, and we are still engaging with those who made submissions.

I presume that because Horse Sport Ireland wants to move to a skills-based board, there was a good breadth of variety in the submissions it received from those who engaged with the process.

Mr. Denis Duggan

Yes. We posted the organisational submissions to our website of which about six or seven are publicly listed. We did receive a number of individual submissions from individuals that we have not posted on the website. Deputy Flaherty mentioned earlier that everybody seems to be unhappy with it. Those submissions that have been publicly listed are from organisations that are unhappy but it is probably not fair to say that everybody has been unhappy. There are many individuals who made submissions. Indeed, we have been in an engagement process with breeders around the country over the past four to five weeks where people are privately welcoming the change, particularly the move to a skills-based board and opening that up. In the advisory council model, an advisory council varied between probably eight to ten members and up to about 25 members. Therefore, the pool of candidates was very small. The open call opened that up to the entire industry to come forward, and people could nominate themsekves. That has been well received from some of the individual engagements we have had albeit that some of those people either made a private submission, which is not listed on our website, or they had informal dialogue with either myself or some of the other senior team at some of those roadshow events, for example.

How many submissions in total did Horse Sport Ireland receive?

Mr. Denis Duggan

I can double check with the private ones but I think it was in the order of ten or 11 formal submissions, of which six are posted online.

Okay. Then, for the next stage, the representatives spoke about an external selection panel. How will they be chosen?

Mr. Michael Dowling

How will what be chosen, the panel?

The external selection panel that will select and recommend the most suitable candidates for the board of directors.

Mr. Michael Dowling

We will establish the panel but it will be clearly independent.

Does Mr. Dowling have a timeframe for that next step? I presume that is the next step

Mr. Michael Dowling

We are in the process of meeting with the organisations that have given views. The result of a meeting we had within the last couple of weeks was that five of the organisations agreed to make a joint submission to us about what they would like and we have agreed to consider that before we move forward.

In the opening statement, Mr. Duggan spoke about the balance sheet being fragile and one of the reasons given was the timing of grant payments from State funders under the current funding model. Could someone elaborate a little bit on that?

Mr. Killian Carroll

Essentially, we have two major State funders, namely, Sport Ireland and the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. The funding that is received from the Department of agriculture is through recoupment. Therefore, we need to spend and then recoup. That creates its challenges around cash flow and timing of payments. As I described earlier, we are very busy at this time of year because we are having to pay out and then recoup the money from the Department. We work as well as we can together, but the fact that it is concentrated into a period of time and it is of this nature creates challenges within the organisation in terms of management.

Okay, that is clear. Horse Sport Ireland carried out a comprehensive assessment of strategies to try to strengthen the financial position and feels that its financial position will, in fact, be strengthened. It will have an impact this year and it will be strengthened further in 2024. What is that primarily based on? What has Horse Sport Ireland done to strengthen that financial position?

Mr. Killian Carroll

What we have tried to do is look at our cost headings and see where we can make savings. That is the first aspect to monitor costs as tightly as we can. There are also some programmes historically that we would have carried out that were uneconomical. We basically did not make money on them. It may have been part funded by a grant and then we did not recoup anything else, or we recouped but whatever we could charge in terms of the market was not sufficient to be able to cover the costs. Therefore, we have looked at those to ask whether we actually put the price up a bit so it can break even or if, indeed, we can engage with that programme into the future. By looking at those into the future and managing or costs as tightly as we can, that will over time create the sustainability we are looking for in the organisation.

I will not go into the details regarding passports because it has been raised but, obviously, similar to colleagues, I hear from people who have been waiting months on end for passports. The representatives appreciate how urgent that issue is and the need to resolve it as quickly as possible. I will not go into it because my colleagues have done so. The idea of a new digital passport is a good idea. Obviously, it will suit some people but it will not suit everyone. It would be good as an option, however. It is positive that it will hopefully come into place next year.

With regard to the Covid moneys, as per the opening statement, Horse Sport Ireland completed that evaluation and then those moneys were allocated just last month in October 2023. When did Horse Sport Ireland receive those moneys? How come they were not allocated until last month?

Mr. Denis Duggan

There were five tranches or rounds in total that Sport Ireland administered to us going right back to early 2020.

This was the last round, so the majority of funds have already been administered and disbursed to the recipient organisations. This last round was in the order of approximately €285,000. That was the last tranche of the overall €2.5 million in Covid supports. It is not necessarily the case that all of the money was only administered in the past three or four weeks. It has been flowing into those organisations since 2020.

I have to attend a public meeting online after the votes, so if the committee returns I will not be able to come back.

Mr. Denis Duggan

I know a lot of Deputies have made reference to constituents being in touch with them about individual passports. Should any Deputy or Senator have a query about an individual passport for an individual constituent, we are happy to receive those details and revert with individual answers, timeline checks and so on. We are happy to do that for anyone.

We will have some amount in the morning.

I will make some points to the witnesses. I think they are on the right track with their comments on the composition of the board with nine members going forward. I am delighted to hear they are meeting the stakeholders. We have to buy into the stakeholders in the formation of the new board. That is important. I also think the board has to have a wide range of skills. We will not go over past history, but the last board and its size did not serve the industry well. A more confined board, with nine people, including the four representatives of the industry is the way to go. Trying to get agreement through consultation with the stakeholders on the composition of that board is definitely the way forward.

I turn to the tender for marketing that was lost to another body. How is that working in practice? Of the money provided to affiliates between 2020 and 2023, Showjumping Ireland, Dressage Ireland and Eventing Ireland got marketing supports, which is what I would expect. We now have a tender being given to another body to market the Irish sport horse. There surely has to be overlap between HSI and the organisation that got this tender. How is this working in reality? Another company has won a tender to market Irish horse. When I hear Horse Sport Ireland, I would automatically feel that remit would fall within its basket. How is that working in practice?

Mr. Denis Duggan

I will put some of the marketing supports listed in the table into context. Because it was from 2020 to 2023, it predates the tender decision. We would have provided some of those marketing supports when Horse Sport Ireland was administering that funding on behalf of the Department of agriculture. Those supports and whether to continue them are now a matter for the Irish Horse Board because it now has the tender. In terms of how it is working, there is an onus on all of us to focus on the work we have to do, and the work it has to do. We regularly meet and engage with the Irish Horse Board on aspects of the promotion of our own stud books and the promotion of sport horses and Irish draughts, which we are responsible for, as I believe the Connemara Pony Society, Leisure Horse Ireland and others are responsible for their stud books.

Mr. Duggan said earlier that we have 35 riders jumping internationally. Is that correct?

Mr. Denis Duggan

In the senior showjumping squad we have between 35 and 40 riders. Somebody occasionally gets injured, which is natural. In terms of international athletes across the board, at all levels, we have more than 750.

I want to stick to the point. We have approximately 100 horses jumping internationally under the Irish flag.

Mr. Denis Duggan

Probably more. Many of those riders would have several horses for different types of competitions.

What percentage of those are Irish bred?

Mr. Denis Duggan

Off the top of my head I would not know. There are a number of notable riders, who are riding on Irish-bred horses. Most people looking in would be familiar with the likes of like Cian O'Connor. There is now Max Watchman with Kilkenny, Bertram Allen with Pacino Amiro or Jack Ryan with BBS McGregor. There are a number of notable Irish breds, but I would not have the overall number to hand.

Is it 50% or 60%?

Mr. Denis Duggan

It would not be as high as 50%. They have opportunities to buy horses across the world. We can take it away and try to do some analysis on it, and come back to the committee.

Is that figure rising, or is it static? What way is it going?

Mr. Denis Duggan

It is rising, anecdotally. When, for example, we look at the Irish team that won the Aga Khan trophy in Dublin in 2022, three of them were on Irish-bred horses.

Mr. Denis Duggan

Three. For many years there had not been any Irish-bred horses on the team. We see there are more, but as I have said that would be anecdotal.

The measurement of our breeding strategy is probably how many of those horses graduate to jump internationally.

Mr. Denis Duggan

It is, but we also have to bear in mind that the number of international athletes globally in the overall equine industry is small. We refer to it as the shop window. The majority of the market is for the leisure rider, and a lot of people who are not competing internationally at what is called the four or five star level. The levels below that is where the greatest market is. We see from last year's CSO figures that there was €185 million in sport horse exports. It is a valuable sector for international sales.

I would still love to see the scenario where an Irish team will go out riding all Irish-bred horses. That is probably not that feasible in the modern, commercial world. One of the first non-Irish horses that jumped for us internationally was Boomerang. It created a right stir at the time that we had a non Irish-bred horse jumping. He jumped successfully for us. There is a big breeding establishment near me putting huge resources, and what I suppose you would call technology, into breeding the right horse and producing the right stallions. You would love to see that coming through in the horses jumping internationally. I have a question on the registration of horses, although the organisation may have no remit in the area. How many horses are not in compliance with registration?

Mr. Denis Duggan

We unfortunately would not know per se if they are not in compliance. Again, this is more of an anecdotal figure, but in January we increased the price for a late registration. That is what we refer to as an adult registration instead of a breeder registering a foal. Such was the level of demand from breeders coming forward to register horses between two- and five years old, we had to extend that price increase deadline on two occasions into the middle of March. In one case, I think we had a six-year-old being registered. We increased the price to discourage what is, in essence, bad behaviour. It is a legal requirement for the foal to be registered within its year of birth. However, with the price being the same whether registered in the second, third or fifth year, there was no incentive for breeders to do the right thing and register within the year of birth. There is an incentive in the thoroughbred world, because the price changes with a thoroughbred once you pass certain deadlines. We followed a similar track. We will perhaps have a better sense of it next year, when we see if there is a reduction in the number of adults coming forward. Foals should ideally be registered within the year of birth.

It is definitely not an issue at the top end or even the middle of the market. As regards compliance, and we will get into welfare issues later on, the fact they are not registered makes it very difficult to deal with the situation or to find who is responsible for the welfare issue. We asked this previously of the Department and the figure we got at that stage was 19% of horses were not registered. If that many cattle were not registered, the Department would be down on top of us fairly heavy. I just cannot understand why there is not more compliance. However, it is outside HSI's remit. It is not its job.

Mr. Denis Duggan

It is outside our remit. We have no statutory powers. A Deputy referred to us being a State agency. We are not. While we are significantly publicly funded and two Ministers, the Minister for agriculture in conjunction with the Minister for sport, appoints directors, we are not a State agency. Equally, in the context of such issues, we have no regulatory role or power.

To go back to the tender issue, it was not really answered whether there is duplication of the work being done on the marketing of horses under another body besides HSI. Does Mr. Duggan consider there is a duplication of resources?

Mr. Denis Duggan

At the moment, absolutely not, because we are not funded to do it. We are very clear, both internally as a management team and at board level, that we are not involved in items that we have no role in.

It must be a jig at border to try to distinguish what HSI does or does not fund.

Mr. Denis Duggan

In the context of the table included in the opening statement, we have been asked for funding by various shows that were traditionally funded and received some marketing supports from us out of that €850,000 allocation we had before the tender award to the Irish Horse Board, but we are no longer funding those for this year because we do not have the funding or the remit.

Did losing that €850,000 have an impact on staffing levels at Horse Sport Ireland?

Mr. Denis Duggan

We had to go through a transfer of undertaking exercise. In essence, a number of staff were linked to the delivery of that contract. As I said, we went through a TUPE exercise. Of the staff involved, ultimately nobody opted to transfer so we have had to go through other exercises.

What is the term of that tender?

Mr. Denis Duggan

It is a four-year tender. The first contract was for an initial two years. There was a subsequent renewal up to a maximum of four years.

Okay. Thank you very much.

I have a couple more questions. I said I might come in at the end, but most of what I raised has been covered. I have a couple of questions on the passport and licensing side of things to get my own head around matters. Excuse my ignorance on this, but is microchipping involved for a passport for a sport horse, such as that for a thoroughbred?

Dr. Sonja Egan

Yes, there is.

There is microchipping.

Dr. Sonja Egan

Correct.

Is it the same procedure? A vet has to put in a microchip and he or she does the markings, as for a thoroughbred.

Dr. Sonja Egan

Correct.

Could a blood sample not be got at that stage? Can DNA be taken from blood? Why does it have to be hair? It must be very frustrating when the process is so slow anyway and then a hair follicle is not up to scratch, whereas if blood were taken when the vet is microchipping and doing the markings, it would be guaranteed. Does blood not work for DNA?

Dr. Sonja Egan

The sport horse industry did previously use blood - it was not genotyped - to confirm and parentage verify the foals to the sire and dam. That was moved away from some years ago. I cannot recall the exact year off the top of my head. It was before my tenure but certainly within-----

Was there a reason we moved from blood to hair?

Dr. Sonja Egan

I could not answer that question. It was not a decision that-----

Do any of Dr. Egan's predecessors or anyone else-----

Mr. Denis Duggan

I do not know but we can take it away and look at it. We will probably-----

I am solution driven. This process is already frustratingly slow, and then a letter could be received in the middle of it stating that more hair is needed. I do this with cattle. We got the buttons or hair options. Of course, the hair option was a lot easier for me than putting cattle in and buttoning their ears but one ear is better than two tails, if the hair follicle comes back and the whole thing is slowed down again. A vet is on the job doing microchipping and markings. With a little bottle of blood, it is guaranteed. Blood is blood and it will not be hit and miss like a hair follicle. I am trying to come up with a way of hurrying the thing up. I would like to know why, if HSI was there already, it has gone full circle because hair is very hit and miss.

Mr. Denis Duggan

My understanding is that the move was made about ten or 12 years ago. I do not know the reasons for it but we can go away and review the archive to see what the rationale was. The context is it is the vet who takes the hair sample. We traditionally always had a 4% to 5% failure rate, where there was not enough hair follicle. The issue is not the hair in itself; it is the root follicle-----

Mr. Denis Duggan

-----and not enough follicles within samples. This year, with the move to SNP technology, we reached out to both veterinary bodies in an effort to try to educate vets as to what was required within the SNP context. The SNP test is more sensitive than the historical microsatellite. Again, we have moved from a situation in July and August when we had a 30% failure rate on that initial visual inspection, including whether a piece of hair follicle was good enough and there was enough of them, back down to the more normalised 4% or 5% failure rate. I am not saying that 4% or 5% is acceptable.

I know. I get it.

Mr. Denis Duggan

It is just that it is more normal.

As I said, blood would be 100%.

Dr. Sonja Egan

I will clarify one thing. Some of the previous ones were tested and deemed to be fine. It was a quality control procedure that we reviewed and a fix was put in place. It was not related to the sampling in particular. It was part of the process.

Is Deputy Flaherty going to a vote again? I have one more question, but if he is going to a vote I will let him go ahead of me.

I will go. I might have time to get to the vote.

Is this the vote on Report and Final Stage or another amendment? It is not clear.

It is a vote on the Bill itself.

Is Deputy Flaherty paired?

No. I will pair with you. Are you paired with somebody?

I have one more question. Let the boys sort out what way they will vote. To be solution driven, has the board any policy or public relations strategy in place to try to lift confidence in Horse Sport Ireland back up? With the greatest respect, we hear on a daily basis that there is very little confidence in HSI among the general public. I presume the representatives are aware of that. A lot of it is coming from its own affiliates. Has the board a public relations policy or any plan to revitalise the image people have of HSI and instil some confidence back into the whole organisation?

Mr. Denis Duggan

We have. Over the past number of months, we have embarked on a number of initiatives. We have had two different sets of roadshows throughout the country that directly engaged with breeders on various issues. We referenced the number of shows that have been supported. We attended 67% or 68% of the various shows and events that have been supported by the organisation on behalf of the Department of agriculture. At every single one of those, I, a member of senior management or a senior member of staff, actively engaged with the community and stakeholders. We are very conscious of the negativity, particularly on social media, but from our engagement it is not the reverberating noise we see on social media. Dr. Egan and I recently completed a suite of roadshows throughout the country where we have been available in question and answer sessions with breeders and-----

Social media aside, I think some of the print media do not do many HSI favours some of the time, either.

Mr. Denis Duggan

Again, in the context of social media and print and other media, we will not get involved in bun fights correcting records all the time when people have expressed an opinion they believe to be fact and that is completely inaccurate. In the context of social media in particular, that is a lot of what is out there. There is a great deal of misinformation, especially in the context of the SNP migration and the challenges involved. Many compare it to the thoroughbred world and say that they can get a thoroughbred passport in two or three weeks and ask why they cannot get a sport horse one. The same system does not apply to thoroughbreds. That is what I mean by misinformation. Where we can-----

That is what I am asking about in the context of countenancing the misinformation.

Mr. Denis Duggan

The downside is that once we start it, particularly on social media, it is a significant resource to keep doing it all of the time. There is a very small team involved in our general communications. Ultimately, it is about having the resources to do it on a large and ongoing basis.

It is greatly important.

Mr. Denis Duggan

We do as much as we can within the resources we have available. Much of it has been in engagements with breeders and stakeholders directly through shows. We have had more than 40 meetings this year with various affiliates and stakeholders. We have had more than 120 shows and events. We have been in attendance for almost 70% of them. That is a significant body of work we have done to reach out and explain the various different issues to people and to help. Ultimately, we are trying to help breeders regardless of what issues they have.

Have the Deputies decided what they are doing? Is Deputy Mythen or Deputy McNamara going first? Deputy McNamara will go first. Is that all right Deputy Mythen?

That is no problem.

We have heard a great deal about some of the successes of HSI since it was established and about some of the less successful aspects. How is elite showjumping funded?

Mr. Denis Duggan

High performance is funded in two ways. We receive a levy that is collected by Showjumping Ireland and contributions from Eventing Ireland and Dressage Ireland. We receive contributions from them which are of various different amounts across the organisations. That is matched on a two for one basis by Sport Ireland. For every euro Showjumping Ireland provides for high-performance sport, we have an additional two euro from Sport Ireland. There is a different amount of money from Showjumping Ireland, which collects it as a levy from prize money from all the shows it runs domestically. Eventing Ireland collects it as part of its general membership, is my understanding. The position with Dressage Ireland is similar. Because showjumping is the bigger of the three sports domestically, its contribution is larger. Eventing is not too far behind. Dressage is a more niche sport and its contribution is smaller. Each of those contributions are matched two for one by Sport Ireland. Ultimately, that gives us the pot of money to fund high-performance costs across the disciplines.

Para-equestrian is separate We have a direct grant from Sport Ireland for that which amounts to approximately €70,000 that we put into supporting the high-performance programme in para equestrian, particularly para-dressage. It is a contribution of between €5,000 and €10,000. It has varied over the past number of years but it is in and around that amount from para equestrian.

Is there a pattern in the amounts raised? Are they increasing? The various levies and amounts raised are - "matched" is not the right word - dealt with on a two to one basis. Typically, is the amount involved increasing year on year?

Mr. Denis Duggan

Typically, it is not. It varies. I will focus on Eventing Ireland. We have an agreement with Eventing Ireland that it will make an additional contribution next year because of additional costs in the context of the Olympics. To be fair there will be an increased amount of money from Eventing Ireland next year for that. There is also a desire on the part of both HSI and Eventing Ireland to formulate an agreement so that we all have certainty over the quantum of money in each of the years following from Paris right through to the LA games four years later.

In the context of Showjumping Ireland we have not received funding this year for the showjumping programme. It contributed to the programme up to last year. We are uncertain as to whether a contribution will come from it for 2023 or not. At the moment, the programme is fully funded by Sport Ireland plus whatever contribution we can make from our own resources.

Is Mr. Duggan unsure as to whether the contribution for 2023 will come? Does Showjumping Ireland collect that money?

Mr. Denis Duggan

It collects it as a levy on prize money within the national shows. It is collecting it, is my understanding, from prize winners and members and so on within its own organisation.

If it is collecting the money is it holding on to it?

Mr. Denis Duggan

Certainly for 2022, for example, Showjumping Ireland paid two instalments in 2023 for the previous year of 2022. It did come eventually so we hope it comes for 2023 as well.

Is there a legal obligation to hand over this money?

Mr. Denis Duggan

Unfortunately, there is no formal legal agreement. They are things we have discussed with all of the affiliates to document and put together something like a memorandum of understanding or some form of legal basis for the payment to give everybody certainty. That is how we have had the discussion with Eventing Ireland about the next four years. It has largely been driven by custom and practice over the past 15 years. If we go back ten years the contribution from showjumping would have been closer to €200,000 or €220,000 and it has reduced significantly. It is half that at the moment, at €100,000.

Was 2022 the last year in respect of which HSI received a contribution?

Mr. Denis Duggan

That is correct.

Is Mr. Duggan saying that it was less in 2022 than it had been in the years before?

Mr. Denis Duggan

In 2022, it was €100,000 from Showjumping Ireland but if we went back ten years it would have been €200,000.

Okay, and is that because Showjumping Ireland is simply collecting less money itself or is it handing over less of it?

Mr. Denis Duggan

I could not speak to that, I would not know.

I suppose the big question I have is that if that funding is not forthcoming what is the impact? Obviously, presumably HSI does not get the matching two euro for every one euro unless it physically gets the money in. Is that how it works?

Mr. Denis Duggan

That is the significant risk the organisation would face. At the moment, we are heavily dependent on the affiliate body to make its high-performance contribution and we are dependent on the funding from Sport Ireland. In the context of facing into an Olympic year with a distinct possibility of a podium finish, particularly within jumping - it is not up to me to speak for Sport Ireland but I do not believe it would withdraw its funding in an Olympic year - it would be a long-term risk that if the funding from the affiliate is not stabilised, the State investment will not continue indefinitely without the sport investing also.

I will suspend because there is a vote in the Dáil. Deputy Flaherty has another couple of questions, so he will have to bear with us. We will be back in a quarter of an hour. At least the witnesses will get a break from us.

Sitting suspended at 7.59 p.m. and resumed at 8.25 p.m.

How many minutes does Deputy Flaherty want? Five? We will give him eight.

We will have the Cathaoirleach out for his dinner shortly. I appreciate his patience and understanding.

I have a couple of things to finish off with. Finance was mentioned briefly. Regarding Showjumping Ireland, in the witnesses' presentation, it is down as owing €100,000. Showjumping Ireland would say there is no discussion on that. The high performance committee has not met and there would not have been an opportunity to discuss it. Therefore, is it not a bit disingenuous for HSI representatives to include that in their presentation?

Mr. Denis Duggan

I am happy to take that. The jumping high performance committee has been reconstituted. Terms of reference have been chaired and we have clarity from a HSI perspective as to who will fill the seats we are responsible for. Earlier in the summer, we wrote to Showjumping Ireland with the terms of reference of the committee. I can double-check the exact date, but I think it was around May or June. We asked it to provide a nominee and it has not done that. Regardless of the existence of the high performance committee or otherwise, there is an obligation on it to provide the funding. It has been providing the funding for 15 years in the context of high performance sport. From a Sport Ireland perspective, it needs to see funding coming from the organisation that holds the membership. Since HSI was set up, we are not the membership body. Unlike some of the other sporting governing bodies where they might have a club structure, people join their local tennis or golf club or whatever and they are affiliated with the national body, we do not have the same structure. Members join one of the affiliates, be it Showjumping Ireland or Eventing Ireland, and that is where the contribution for high performance sport is supposed to come from.

Very good. Regarding HSI’s board, roughly how many times has it met since the last time the HSI was before this committee? Has the HSI board had formal meetings?

Mr. Denis Duggan

We were before the committee at the end of June. There would have been a board meeting in June but I am not sure whether it was before or after the last committee meeting. I do not think there was a meeting in August but in September and October. Therefore, probably two to three meetings. I think three.

The board has met three times. On funding and, in particular, for young riders competing at championship events, aside from the contribution HSI would make towards show entry and show fees, does it make any other financial contribution to those athletes?

Mr. Denis Duggan

We have a commercial sponsor, particularly in the youth programmes. We are very fortunate that GAIN equine nutrition is a commercial sponsor. As part of its commercial sponsorship, we provide a bursary at certain levels, especially around the European championships for young riders.

That would be just for the European championships. Let us say – we cannot say home international – they are going to a UK and Ireland competition. Would they get a contribution towards that?

Mr. Denis Duggan

It depends on what events are being held in the European championship campaign. There is a bursary for young riders as part of that.

Is there any charge on high performance young riders if they are selected? Do they have to pay anything? For example, if they go to a training session with a high performance coach, are they charged to attend that?

Mr. Denis Duggan

To be honest, equestrian sport is very expensive. We need to acknowledge that. We are always both appreciative and conscious, particularly regarding youth teams, that parents, and in many cases grandparents, fund the children to compete and participate. As an organisation, we would love to have pots of money, amounting to €7 million, €8 million or €10 million, for high-performance showjumping, like in some other countries. We are not in that scenario and therefore the funding we have available for families participating is very limited. We give them the bursary where we can but there are undoubtedly costs that parents and even grandparents meet in supporting the children to compete.

However, Mr. Duggan would probably accept that there is a disincentive if you do not have the financial wherewithal. It goes back to Mr. Dowling's point that, in the context of seeking to have greater diversity and inclusion in HSI, charging young riders in particular probably goes against the core value of the organisation.

Mr. Denis Duggan

I absolutely accept that it is not ideal if young riders have to pay. By referring to them having to pay, I am referring to their parents and families funding them outside the bursary we can provide. We are grateful for the GAIN Equine Nutrition sponsorship but it is a small bursary towards participation. Unfortunately, it will not cover the full cost of young riders competing on the international circuit.

With regard to the competition events and ECVOA, we have made a suggestion at a meeting of this committee. ECVOA has suggested it should have a memorandum of association with HRI. I understand it has one prepared. Are HSI representatives due to meet ECVOA representatives shortly?

Mr. Michael Dowling

We are quite happy to go ahead with a memorandum of understanding. Mr. Duggan was in contact with ECVOA on what is required. If it has something prepared, let it send it in immediately.

Would it be conceivable that it could have someone on the board, albeit a non-voting member?

Mr. Denis Duggan

Through the open-call process as a stakeholder, bearing in mind it is not an affiliate. Today, if we were following the process as outlined in the open call, ECVOA would absolutely have the same right or entitlement as any other body to nominate someone. Let us be fair: the members of ECVOA do not just have equestrian experience; they also have business and other skills. Its members would be very valuable to any board, including our own. I am referring to the current process or open call.

In our meeting with ECVOA representatives recently, they indicated they had drafted or been involved in the production of a document around a memorandum of understanding from a number of years ago, and they were to share that with us. If they have that, we will be happy to receive it. I have been in touch with one of the organisation's members on the overall affiliation process. A memorandum of understanding is one thing on which we are happy to engage with ECVOA, but we are also happy to discuss affiliation with it. We have sent it the criteria and application form.

That is very positive. If the competition venues are keen to grow, we will need a vibrant competition scene. Therefore, it is important to have a cohesive and harmonious relationship between HSI and ECVOA. An issue the ECVOA representatives raised was funding. ECVOA would need to be joined at the hip with HSI in trying to seek Government funding. I encourage the representatives present to bring this to a positive outcome.

Mr. Denis Duggan

In our pre-budget submission from last year, not this year, we advocated to the Government on that very need. In previous engagements with the committee, it was said ECVOA was not eligible for sports capital funding. We have articulated the view that some form of capital support and a programme is available, but unfortunately ECVOA is not eligible. I believe that, in previous engagements, Deputy Fitzmaurice pointed out that the sports capital programme run by the Department of sport is very much focused on community organisations. It is not really up to me to offer suggestions to the Department of sport on how it should change the funding model, but ECVOA is not eligible and is well aware of that.

As I mentioned in the opening statement, the venue centres are integral to the running of those events for which we provide funding, but there is an indirect benefit in that when we provide significant prize money for the likes of the Studbook Series, the venue centres hosting the series collect entry fees as part of the process, which fees they retain to cover their running costs and whatever other affiliation-----

Those big events would balance out with the ones that are poorly attended, so I suppose there are swings and roundabouts.

The delegates stated there has been criticism in social media. I noted an article in The Irish Times on human resources issues within HSI. When the delegates last spoke here, they said they were carrying out interviews with past staff and board members. Can he elaborate on this and indicate what the findings were from those interviews, which we will call "exit interviews"?

Mr. Denis Duggan

We do exit interviews as a matter of course. It is through these that we received the feedback from staff leaving the passporting unit. I have probably covered that earlier.

I believe we did not get an answer when HSI representatives were in before, but on the basis that HSI is effectively Government funded through both the Department of agriculture and Sport Ireland, how many legal actions are there at the minute concerning HR issues? I do not need Mr. Duggan to go into them but he might say how many cases there are.

Mr. Denis Duggan

There are three legal actions that I am aware of. It would not be appropriate to comment on them because they are all before the courts.

I do not expect that.

I appreciate the delegates' attendance. They have been very frank. We need a cohesive industry. HSI is an important player in this, as are the affiliates. I have gleaned that there is probably scope for compromise in the matter. There is an opportunity for HSI, having regard to the formation of the board, to revert to what were the old advisory councils and the associated nomination process. That is the way to move forward. If it is the case that one or two directors have to be added to bring in expertise not already provided for within the four directorships, HSI can do that. Before now, and in advance of the Minister coming in, I would have been recommending to the Minister that he direct HSI to pause the current process of appointing directors and revert to the old one involving the nominees from the four advisory councils, but I suspect there is something of a meeting of minds. I encourage HSI to go the full journey because, for the sake of the industry, we need unity at this time. The best path to unity is to get a board everybody agrees on. I hope that can be an outcome for HSI. Again, I thank the delegates for attending and being frank with us.

On behalf of the committee, I thank the witnesses for their contributions today. As Deputy Flaherty said, they have given us a very full brief. They were very frank and open in their answers.

The next public meeting of the joint committee will be on Wednesday, 22 November from 5.30 p.m. to 7 p.m., the aim being to examine the Horse and Greyhound Racing Fund Regulations 2023. The select committee will meet on Wednesday, 22 November from 7 p.m. to 8.30 p.m., when Supplementary Estimates – Vote 30 – will be discussed.

The joint committee adjourned at 8.39 p.m. until 5.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 22 November 2023.
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