Joint Committee on Agriculture, Food and the Marine debate -
Wednesday, 6 Dec 2023

Impact of Rising Veterinary Costs on Dog Ownership and Surrenders and Abandoned Dogs: Discussion

An Cathaoirleach

I remind Members and witnesses to turn off their mobile phones. Witnesses giving evidence from within the parliamentary precincts are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they give to a committee. This means a witness has a full defence in any defamation action for anything said at a committee meeting. However, witnesses are expected not to abuse this privilege and may be directed to cease giving evidence on an issue at the Chair's direction. Witnesses should follow the direction of the Chair in this regard and are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that, as is reasonable, no adverse commentary should be made against an identifiable third person or entity. Witnesses who are to give evidence from a location outside the parliamentary precincts are asked to note that they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as a witness giving evidence from within the parliamentary precincts does and may consider it appropriate to take legal advice on this matter. Privilege against defamation does not apply to publication by witnesses, outside the proceedings held by the committee, of any matters arising from the proceedings.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Parliamentary privilege is considered to apply to utterances of Members participating online in a committee meeting when their participation is from within the parliamentary precincts. Members may not participate online in a public meeting from outside the parliamentary precincts, and any attempt to do so will result in the Member having his or her online access removed.

The purpose of the first session today is an examination of the impact of rising veterinary costs on dog ownership, surrenders and abandoning. In the first session, the committee will hear from officials of the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, the Department of Rural and Community Development and Veterinary Ireland. The witnesses from the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine are Dr. Eoin Ryan, head of the animal welfare division, and Dr. Robert Doyle, assistant secretary.

The witnesses from the Department of Rural and Community Development are Ms Deirdre Kelly, principal officer; Ms Catherine Burns, assistant principal; and Ms Michelle Casserly, higher executive officer. The witnesses from Veterinary Ireland are Mr. Finbar Murphy, chief executive; Mr. Bill Cashman, Veterinary Ireland Companion Animal Society, VICAS, national committee; Mr. Paul McDermott, immediate past president; and Mr. Conall Calleary, chair of the local authority employees interest group. They are all very welcome to the meeting. Their opening statements have been circulated to members. I will allow five minutes for the opening statements and then we will proceed with the question and answer session. We will begin with the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine and I invite Mr. Eoin Ryan to make his opening statement.

Mr. Eoin Ryan

I am grateful for the opportunity to address the committee on the topic of the impact of rising veterinary costs on dog ownership surrenders and abandoned dogs. I am joined by my colleague Dr. Robert Doyle, assistant secretary.

Dogs can be wonderful companions, enriching our lives in many ways, as we can enrich theirs through being responsible owners. Dog ownership is a significant commitment, however, and a dog should not be taken on lightly or without serious thought and consideration. Dogs can live for many years, during which time a responsible owner will devote time to taking care of them, training and exercising them, and will spend substantial sums over the years on feed, veterinary costs, dog licensing, microchipping and other expenses. The Department's guidance on responsible dog ownership highlights the following points. Is a dog the right choice for the person, for the family, for the home circumstances and lifestyle? Are financial resources available to cover the likely expenses? Will the dog be responsibly sourced? Is the person aware of the legal responsibilities of dog ownership, including dog control, licensing and microchipping? Unfortunately, some owners make the decision to surrender or even abandon their dogs. The reasons given may vary, with each case having its own circumstances. There is no published scientific research on the factors cited by owners influencing dog surrender in Ireland in recent years. A 2012 study on stray and surrendered dogs in Cork did not identify veterinary costs as a factor.

The Department has responsibility for five general areas relating to dogs, namely, the pet sales register, pet passports, the movement and trade of dogs internationally, the microchipping of dogs, and the provisions of the Animal Health and Welfare Act 2013, which applies to dogs. I will discuss these areas in more detail shortly. On the issue of control of dogs, the Ministers, Deputies McConalogue and Humphreys, established a working group on dog control at the start of this year. The Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, chairs and provides the secretariat for this working group. The group has produced a report that was approved by Cabinet and subsequently published, and this report contains a number of recommendations relating to the control of dogs. This group continues to meet, and work is ongoing to implement these recommendations.

The Department has an important role in dog welfare in the context of its overall policy responsibilities for animal welfare. The Animal Health and Welfare Act was introduced after public and stakeholder consultation, and with the legislative expertise of this committee. The Department has a strong history of supporting the welfare of animals, and animal welfare has never had a more important place regarding policy, resources, and practical implementation. The Department has more than 200 authorised officers under the Act who carry out welfare inspections in every county and are out on the ground every day providing advice and support to the keepers of animals. Members of An Garda Síochána as well as ISPCA and DSPCA inspectors are also authorised under the Act. Where necessary, legal sanctions are imposed, and prosecutions are taken when other efforts to ensure compliance have failed, or if there is blatant disregard for an animal's welfare. To date, 151 successful prosecutions have been taken under the Animal Health Act, of which 96 relate to dogs, and a number of other investigations are ongoing.

In 2021, the Minister, Deputy McConalogue, launched Working Together for Ireland's Animal Welfare Strategy 2021-2025, which was Ireland's first stand-alone animal welfare strategy. Delivering on the strategy and in response to the programme for Government commitment, the Minister, Deputy McConalogue, established a new independently chaired Advisory Council on Companion Animal Welfare. Independent members with a range of expertise and experience have been appointed, including members from Veterinary Ireland, UCD, the ISPCA, the DSPCA, Dogs Trust, and others. This council, therefore, is a critical stakeholder grouping that will assist the Department in prioritising and advancing policy initiatives relating to companion animals. The council was instrumental in the development of the Department's approach to the animal welfare issue posed by brachycephalic, or flat-faced, dog breeds. An open letter has been issued by the Department on behalf of the council to media and advertising organisations, requesting that they refrain from the unnecessary use of images of these dogs in publications, on merchandise, or for product endorsement. The council is also advising the Minister on responsible pet ownership initiatives, which will contain guidance and information for pet owners and those considering acquiring pets.

Turning to another recent initiative on dog welfare, in September, the Minister, Deputy McConalogue, introduced new regulations, SI 412/2023, on the cropping of dogs' ears. This is a cruel practice that causes severe pain for dogs. Cropping of dogs' ears has been illegal in Ireland since 2013 but these new regulations extended the existing prohibitions and protected dogs across Ireland from this unnecessary and needless mutilation. The Department acknowledges the valuable work done by animal welfare organisations, and our officials work closely with them every day. Since 2002, the Department has provided financial support to eligible charities, with record assistance of €5.8 million being awarded by the Minister, Deputy McConalogue, to 99 animal welfare organisations in December last year. Of this, almost €4.7 million went to 73 organisations directly working on dog welfare. This funding recognises the importance of the role such charities play in education, awareness raising, and the dissemination of knowledge to improve animal welfare; particularly relevant for encouraging responsible pet ownership. The animal welfare grants for 2023 are due to be announced shortly, and will again recognise the important work carried out by animal welfare charities, providing them with significant financial support.

The provision of veterinary services is a private sector business and the Department does not have a role in setting or determining the prices charged by veterinary practitioners. It recognises the pressure animal welfare charities - particularly dog charities - are under, and this is taken into account in the animal welfare grants, including in the 2023 animal welfare grants. We regularly engage with the charities to which we provide funding. For example, we hold an annual seminar for charities in receipt of Department grants, which is a valuable forum for discussion and for us to listen to those engaged in this difficult work every day. I will conclude by stating that the Department operates a confidential, dedicated animal welfare helpline, through which members of the public can report concerns about the welfare of any animal by phone or by email. The helpline can be contacted at 01-6072379, or by email at [e-mail]. The Department received 1,251 animal welfare reports in 2022 and each one is followed up by a Department official or an ISPCA or DSPCA authorised officer, as appropriate. I hope I have given members of the committee a good overview of the Department's responsibilities in respect of dogs. My colleague and I will be pleased to answer any questions the members may have.

Ms Deirdre Kelly

I thank the Cathaoirleach for this opportunity to address the committee on the topic of the impact of rising veterinary costs on dog ownership surrenders and abandoned dogs. I am joined by my colleagues; Ms. Catherine Burns, assistant principal officer, and Ms. Michelle Casserly, higher executive officer. My Department has policy and legislative responsibility for two areas relating to dogs, namely, the Control of Dogs Act 1986 and the Dog Breeding Establishments Act 2010. As my colleagues from the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine have outlined, a number of areas relating to dog ownership also fall under its remit. Under the Control of Dogs Act, local authorities have responsibility for all operational activities. They have the power to appoint dog wardens, provide dog shelters, seize dogs, impose on-the-spot fines and take court proceedings against owners. Similarly, under the Dog Breeding Establishments Act, local authorities have powers regarding the licensing and inspection of dog breeding establishments. I will discuss these areas in more detail shortly. Furthermore, local government falls under the remit of the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, while littering offences, including dog fouling, fall under the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications.

Regarding the general topic of dog ownership, the committee members will be aware, as Mr. Ryan has already mentioned, that the Ministers, Deputies McConalogue and Humphreys, established a working group on dog control in January of this year. The report of this working group was published in March, and recommended a number of changes to the dog control landscape. The Department of Rural and Community Development, with our colleagues in the Department for Agriculture, Food and the Marine, is committed to implementing the recommendations assigned to our Department and will work in collaboration with our colleagues do so. Since the establishment of this group, we have continued to meet regularly and have strengthened the close working relationship between our Departments, working towards a co-ordinated approach to dog issues. In practice, there can be a considerable degree of overlap between policy issues such as dog control, dog welfare, strays and surrenders, and other public concerns. In terms of the legislation and policy for which we are responsible, the Control of Dogs Act provides for the licensing and control of dogs and the manner in which dogs may come into the possession of dog wardens and pounds, while operational matters are the responsibility of the local authorities.

The Department of Rural and Community Development also collates and publishes annual statistics on local authority dog related activities. These include, for example, information on stray and unwanted dogs, numbers of dog licences, enforcement actions, and the operation of local authority dog shelters and dog breeding establishments. The statistics are available on the gov.ie website. In February, the Department of Rural and Community Development advised the committee that it was its intention to undertake analysis of the statistics. I am pleased to advise that this was published in July this year for operations to end of 2022 and we are planning to do the same next year. Statistics for 2023 will begin to be collated early in 2024 for analysis and publication. To better inform policymaking, the Department is considering, what, if any, additional statistics could be reasonably gathered and requested from local authority dog control operations from the year beginning 2024. The statistics offer some useful data on the number of dogs entering pounds and shelters, whether by straying or surrender. As evidenced through licensing figures, pet dog numbers in Ireland remained relatively stable in the years leading up to 2020 and the onset of Covid-19. The notable rise in dog ownership over that time also corresponded with a fall in the number of dogs surrendered to pounds. However, surrender rates have begun to trend back upwards post Covid-19, and from conversations with colleagues in dog control and the charities sector, we are expecting the 2023 statistics to show further increases in surrenders.

Anecdotal reports from dog welfare charities suggest a return to life post lockdown, resumption of in-office working and reopening of travel and wider society has left many dog owners struggling with dogs that had been accustomed to more attention and time. When coupled with the housing crisis and reports that landlords may be reluctant to accept dog owners as tenants, exacerbated by a cost-of-living crisis, it is clear that some dog owners have struggled to cope and feel no alternative but to surrender their dogs.

We are minded that some of this crisis may be avoided by a better understanding among the public of the commitment and the cost involved in dog ownership and for that reason have been working with the Department of agriculture on an initiative to raise awareness of obligations. We intend to roll that out in a more comprehensive way very shortly through the dog warden network and our stakeholder charity organisations. We will work to support training for dog wardens in 2024 to include capacity building in outreach activities in schools and communities. We are pleased to advise that the Minister, Deputy Humphreys, has secured funding for a significant awareness campaign in 2024. This includes the action in the working group outlining this responsible dog ownership awareness week. It is intended that a portion of this additional funding will also be used to roll out a neutering campaign. The exact details of this are yet to be scoped, particularly in terms of how best to target this initiative. However, we look forward to engaging with colleagues to ensure it achieves the maximum impact possible.

We are aware that pounds are already under pressure so we have provided €2 million in capital funding to local authorities in 2023 to upgrade and improve their facilities. We would prefer, however, to be in a position whereby stray and surrendered dog numbers were lower. Having partnered with the animal welfare charity Mutts Anonymous Dog Rescue and Adoption, MADRA, and with Galway County Council to conduct a census of dogs in charities and pounds for World Animal Day this year, we recognise there is more that can be done to highlight this issue to the public, and to encourage conversations about dog ownership, people's obligations and choosing to adopt a dog for rehoming rather than shopping.

Legislative and policy responsibilities in relation to the Dog Breeding Establishments Act 2010 and the Control of Dogs Act 1986 transferred to the Department of Community and Rural Development from the then Department of Housing, Planning, Community and Local Government in July 2017 when the Department of Community and Rural Development was formed. That Department published dog breeding establishment guidelines in 2018. These guidelines were issued under section 15(4) of the Dog Breeding Establishments Act 2010 following a public consultation process and set standards that must be followed not just in relation to the structures, but also the management of the establishment. This extends to exercise, socialisation, enhancement and enrichment of the dogs.

Local authorities are responsible for the licensing and inspection of dog breeding establishments. However it is an area that the Department of Community and Rural Development is keeping under close review. In line with the recommendations of the working group report and this committee, the Department of Community and Rural Development has implemented a national, centralised database of registered dog breeding establishments, which will be regularly updated and is accessible on gov.ie.

The area of dog control is complex with many varying opinions on what is the best way forward. It is our intention to work closely with stakeholders and experts as we progress our work, particularly on legislative changes. This has meant that progress is perhaps not as quick as we would like. However, we feel there is value in having the conversations now in order that any changes are fit for purpose and deliver the optimal outcomes for communities, for dog owners, for the public and for the dogs themselves.

I hope that I have given members of the committee a good overview of the Department's responsibilities in respect of dogs and our role in moving policy forward. My colleague and I will be pleased to answer any questions the committee may have. I thank the committee for its attention.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Ms Kelly and call Mr. Murphy to speak now, please.

Mr. Finbarr Murphy

I thank the Chair. I am joined today by Paul McDermott, our immediate past president and local authority vet with Mayo County Council; Conall Calleary, chair of our local authority employees interest group and the local authority vet with Sligo County Council; and Bill Cashman, of Veterinary Ireland's companion animal national committee who is a companion animal vet in Cork. We thank the committee and the Chair for the opportunity to contribute to the committee’s deliberations on this subject.

Veterinary Ireland is the representative body for the veterinary practitioners in Ireland. Our members include those private veterinary practitioners engaged in farm animal, companion animal, equine and mixed veterinary practice, as well as those registered veterinary practitioners engaged from the local authority veterinary service, and the State veterinary services in public health, animal health and animal welfare veterinary-related duties.

Of these members, those engaged in companion animal veterinary practice and by the local authority veterinary service have the most knowledge and day-to-day experience of the ownership, surrendering and the abandonment of dogs in Ireland and it is from these experiences and knowledge that Veterinary Ireland has drawn in formulating this submission.

The threat to animal health and animal welfare posed by the current increase in the number of unwanted dogs impacts on each of the above sectors in a unique manner. There is currently much public disquiet due to images of neglected dogs on mainstream and social media platforms, as well as at the reported increase in the number of stray and abandoned dogs. A number of surveys have been carried out by the Central Statistics Office and welfare organisations that demonstrate a recent pattern in domestic dog ownership that has developed since the Covid-19 crisis. This is stated as domestic dog ownership, bearing in mind that there are a significant number of working dogs kept in Ireland, for agricultural and other purposes, and these are kept distinct from those owned in a more domestic environment.

In essence, two broad categories of domestic dog ownership now exist. The first is the traditional dog-owning family who see the benefits of pet ownership and who are prepared to adapt their own lifestyle to accommodate the varied needs of a dog. The second are those owners who take on a dog for initial situational reasons, for example Christmas or birthday presents for children to learn animal care, companionship during the Covid-19 pandemic, etc., but who then find that expectations are not met or pet ownership has a fundamental impact on their lives and lifestyles that they cannot sustain or both.

A recent CSO online survey of over 10,000 respondents found that 20% of current dog owners had acquired their dog during the Covid-19 crisis. There is an inherent danger that as these owners return to their previous working pattern, the practical demands of dog ownership of feeding, toileting, exercising, care during holidays, public control and health management, may become unsustainable. Behavioural issues for dogs in situations where the owner has insufficient time or resources to take care of them are well documented. Given the discretionary nature of dog ownership, it is inevitable that a number of dogs in this situation will be surrendered for rehoming, put-to-sleep, PTS, or simply abandoned. This premise is verified by the available statistics. The number of stray dogs and dogs surrendered to local authority pounds decreased dramatically during the Covid-19 crisis. However, the number of strays and of surrendered dogs increased dramatically in 2022. While figures are not yet available, this increase has seemingly continued on into 2023. The rate of increase has been so dramatic that many local authority pounds are full to overflowing and are experiencing great difficulty in re-homing dogs. Similarly, many dog welfare organisations are overwhelmed by requests to surrender dogs.

The data supplied by Dogs Trust implies that financial and medical reasons are a minor cause for the surrender of dogs to their organisation. The most prevalent reasons cited by owners include: unwanted behaviour at 24%, time available to take care of dog at 20%, accommodation challenges at 19%, no reason given at 18%, owner health and allergy at 16%, and financial and medical at 3%. The available data presented here indicates that the increase in surrenders and abandonments arises in the main not from the financial aspects of ownership but in the situational, environmental, and behavioural challenges to those who took on pet dogs and found that the required amount of time, accommodation requirements and behavioural aspects of their pets are beyond expectations and sustainable attentions.

While dog surrenders and abandonments were a growing concern prior to the start of the Covid-19 pandemic, the impact upon local authority pounds and on organisations such as Dogs Trust shows that a significant proportion of the dog surrenders and abandonments since 2022 are linked to a reaction during the pandemic of the felt need to take in a pet dog for whatever personal reasons, and the after-effects of normalisation once the pandemic was over. There is also a need to both improve the quality and quantity of data on dog ownership and control in Ireland, as well as a perceived need to educate and inform the Irish citizenry on responsible dog ownership, not only on the positive aspects of companionship and affection but also on the practical demands of responsible dog ownership in respect of feeding, toileting, exercising, care during holidays, public control and health management, as well as the legislative rights and responsibilities including requirements under the Control of Dogs Acts such as, for example: control, fouling, noise nuisance and microchipping and licensing legislation.

Our full submission includes suggested possible actions such as CSO surveys and educational programmes from primary school to adulthood. Veterinary Ireland's members will also be available to work with Departments and other agencies in the pursuit of addressing the issues of responsible and compliant dog ownership and the problems of dog surrenders and dog abandonment currently encountered in Ireland. I thank the Chair and we are happy to try to deal with any questions the committee has.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Mr. Murphy and call Senator Boylan to speak now, please.

Senator Lynn Boylan

I thank all of the guests for their opening statements. We had discussed covering this issue because certainly, anecdotally, the rising costs of veterinary bills is something that has been repeatedly raised with me, both by regular dog owners but also by a number of the shelters. I find it interesting that even if we took account of inflation alone, one would have to accept that veterinary costs have gone up, we are hearing, by at least 50%, which is way above inflation. I find it bizarre that none of the opening statements touched on the subject properly or looked into it.

They skirted around the issues. A 2012 study was quoted. That is way out of date. If they want to look at the matter, there is the Amárach Research study, which was carried out in September of this year on behalf of the ISPCA, which found that 36% of people said they would not consider owning a dog because of the cost. Some 25% said that veterinary costs were the main barrier to rescuing or owning a dog. Those are very recent statistics. If you go to talk to shelters, they will tell you that dogs with health problems are being surrendered because owners cannot afford to look after them. They cannot afford the recent medication. It interesting that the witnesses indicated that there is nothing to see here and that this is not an issue. We appreciate that during Covid-19 people got dogs when they should not have done and that they did not do the research. Yet, we have to accept that there is a problem with veterinary costs. If we are not going to accept that, we are not going to fix the problem. We are not going to be able to get those dogs rescued from the shelters if 26% of people are saying they will not even consider rescuing a dog because they are worried about veterinary costs.

My first question is for the Department of Rural and Community Development because it is responsible for dog pounds. Has the Department carried out a survey asking the dog pounds whether dogs are being surrendered as a result of veterinary costs? Has it put that question to all dog pounds? I went to visit the dog pound in South Dublin County Council. I was shown the large book that the staff have for recording information. The system is not even digitised. There is an inconsistency with the data that is being collected from pound to pound. Would the representatives consider digitising the information in this day and age, even on a single Excel spreadsheet? This would be in order that every local pound would collect the same amount of information and would share it. This would speed up the results coming out. I welcome the fact that the representatives said that the results would come out quicker. Yet, we need to have that information digitised and it needs to be consistent across the board. Would they look at having a single entity that is responsible for co-ordinating the local authorities' approach to the pounds so we can have that consistency across the board?

There is another question I want to ask the Department. It is my understanding that local authorities co-operate with animal rescues. We see in the figures when the results are produced that the euthanasia rates have gone down. This is because when the five days are up, the dogs will go on to many of the rescues, where they spend their time until they are rehomed. Who covers the veterinary bills for those rescues? Do local authorities cover them or does it fall to animal rescues centres, which will have the animal for much longer, to do so?

My final question is for Veterinary Ireland. Is there no scope for entering into agreements, particularly with rescue centres and shelters, which are really on their knees at the moment? They are reporting very high percentage increases in veterinary costs. Can they enter into an agreed rate system? They are guaranteed the business and that they will have hundreds of dogs, cats and companion animals coming through. Surely, an agreed rate system would be the way to go for the rescues. Those are my questions.

An Cathaoirleach

Would the officials from the Department of Rural and Community Development like to go first?

Ms Deirdre Kelly

I thank the Senator for the questions. In the context of why dogs are being surrendered, we do not have any empirical evidence. That direct question is not asked in the statistics we are gathering. We have some anecdotal evidence, which we get from the pounds and the charities we work with. We do not currently request the information, but we are working with local authorities and the CCMA on statistics. In 2022, we collected and analysed statistics they were already collecting. Next year, we are hoping to expand that again, start working with them and talking to them about what other types of information they may be able to give us. That would potentially include why dogs are surrendered.

There are a few issues. Sometimes people do not want to say why they are surrendering their dogs. This is the information we get back from the local authority pounds. Other times, when people are asked about surrendering their dogs, they get a little defensive. There is then some concern that they would not surrender them and the dogs would end up in a more difficult situation as a result. We are to engage with the pounds and the staff in the CCMA to do it in a way that will mitigate against those kinds of scenarios. We are also having the conversation about digitisation. That is all part of the conversation we have started with the CCMA in the context of enhancing and developing the data that they collected, the way they collect it and the way we report it. We do not have that information now but we are having conversations with the CCMA to develop systems to collect that information.

We are engaged with the CCMA on a regular basis on all sorts of dog control issues. However, the way the surrendered dogs are dealt with in a local context is a local arrangement. It differs in each local authority. The finance is different in each local authority as well. It is my understanding that once the dog is passed on to the welfare charities that the costs are with the welfare charities. That might not be the best way to do it.

I mentioned how we engage with stakeholders. All these topics will form part of the conversation we have with stakeholders. We will set up a stakeholder group very early in the new year. The main reason for that is in order that they can assist us with the potential amendments to both the Control of Dogs Act and the Dog Breeding Establishments Act. However, the discussions will be much broader than that and will include this area. I refer particularly to the data, which is really important. It is important that we get accurate data to underpin the policy and framework decisions we might have to make to support the implementation of both the Dog Breeding Establishments Act and the Control of Dogs Act. Did the Senator have another question?

Senator Lynn Boylan

I wanted to follow up on that. I do not understand why the Department would not ask. I take on board that people might be reluctant to admit why they are surrendering their dogs. They might lie. That is part and parcel of it. Yet, I do not understand why it is not mandatory to at least ask the question and collect an answer. The experience of most people with the charities is that they will always say when they surrender dogs is that there must be no judgement. They ask for no comments underneath. They will say that the dog has come back in because of the housing crisis or for whatever issue. I just do not understand why they would not require for the question to at least be asked. If somebody lies, then somebody lies. It should at least be asked. Previously, we have raised the issue - but this is anecdotal because data is not being collected properly - of how 30% of the surrenders were down to the housing crisis. We need policy changes and we need data to support the arguments for those changes.

Ms Deirdre Kelly

I am a huge advocate for collecting accurate and appropriate data. We will engage with the CCMA to see how we can collect that data to mitigate those circumstances. We will have to take on board and accept the fact that some people may not tell us the truth. We cannot legislate for that, but we can certainly talk to the CCMA about how we could ask those questions and get that data for 2024.

An Cathaoirleach

I call Mr. Cashman.

Mr. Bill Cashman

First, I want to make a point to correct the record about the two surveys we produced. One of them is from the CSO in 2022. The other is from Dogs Trust Ireland in 2023. They are as up to date as we can get.

Senator Lynn Boylan

No, sorry, the 2012 report was from the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine.

Mr. Bill Cashman

According to the survey that was carried out in 2023, fewer than 3% of dogs were submitted for medical reasons. Allowing for the fact that people might be telling lies and the rest, Dogs Trust Ireland found out was that most dogs were surrendered for behavioural issues, time constraints and lifestyle choices. In speaking to dog wardens, it is not the case that many dogs are surrendered because of medical conditions and veterinary costs.

I will deal first with the point of agreed rates. Many practices do have discount rates, and do that as best as they can. Yet, it must be remembered that every vet is still liable professionally for the minimum standards that must obtain. There is only so far you can cut it. If, for example, you are a charity, do you leave an animal without pain relief?

That is unprofessional.

Senator Lynn Boylan

I do not think anybody is saying that.

An Cathaoirleach

Senator Boylan should let Mr. Cashman answer and then she can come back.

Mr. Bill Cashman

One can cut costs so far without cutting corners, and cutting corners will always lead to trouble for a professional. We are held to account for professional standards by the code of practice and it does not matter whether we are charging $1 million for an operation or whether we are doing it for free, we must still do it to the same standard. There has to be some dawning of reality perhaps, that we cannot cut costs down to zero.

It would be lovely if everybody got paid but veterinary practices, for instance, have had to endure the same cost-of-living increases in electricity and all the rest of it, and drugs shortages, as everybody else has. We are not complaining any more than anybody else, but it is there. It is a known fact. Our electricity and everything else went up as well, and they have to paid first. The money that is handed over by a client as a fee into a practice is not the income for the vet, because the first thing that has to be paid is the premises and the licensing and then all of the other costs have to be paid. While we are often compared to medicine, the Senator must remember that veterinary first opinion practice is not the same as a medical first opinion practice. Most practices now have digital X-rays, ultrasound machines, endoscopes and blood testing machinery and the tests are done instantly. It is like a cross between a GP, an accident and emergency room, and a hospital, all merged into one. All of those costs have to be paid for, including staff, who also have to endure the cost-of-living increases and who must be paid for as well.

We must also remember there is no such thing as an external aid of any kind for any practice in the country. There is no subsidy. There are no VAT reductions – nothing. Again, I do not mean to play the violin about this, but that is just the reality: the only person who pays the whole cost of veterinary practice is the person who either owns the dog or presents the dog, cat, cow, sheep or whatever. They are the only people who pay.

Even during Covid, the veterinary profession was told it was an essential service. The Minister for agriculture made the statement that veterinary practices were to stay open and that was the end of it. They all left then. There was no subsidy. No PPE was delivered. Practices got on with it on their own. It is one of the proudest achievements of the veterinary profession that it managed a way, on its own, through extended opening hours, harder work, longer hours, people getting Covid and dealing with all of the ups and downs of it, and it was done.

It is very important that it should be kept in mind when we talk about veterinary costs, as against a false impression going out that in some way the public is being gouged by veterinary practices. Many is the time down the years in a different life when we used to find that veterinary fees in farming were always paraded but they amount to between 2% and 5% of costs. I know the Chairman might not agree with that. IFAC, the farm accounts co-operative, did a survey between ten and 20 years ago, which I admit it is a long time ago, but often perception can get in the way of a fact. The Dogs Trust survey is probably the most telling one and it is very up to date.

Senator Lynn Boylan

It is not as up to date as this one, which was carried out in September 2023. I am just wondering why this most recent one was not mentioned when Mr. Cashman picked the Dogs Trust report. I refer to the Amárach Research, based on interviews carried out on 1,000 people on the reasons that would prevent them from getting a dog or rescuing a dog. It was in the ISPCA. It was out in animal week, the same time as the MADRA report.

Mr. Bill Cashman

The Dogs Trust one was done on 3,500 people and the CSO one was on 10,000. That would carry a bit more weight than 1,000, even allowing for people giving disinformation and misinformation. Some 1,000 people is a fairly small survey when there are approximately half a million dogs in the country. We do not know how many dogs there are in the country because we do not have joined-up thinking.

Senator Lynn Boylan

We agree completely with Mr. Cashman in terms of the opening statement on-----

An Cathaoirleach

There was an excellent point made in one of the submissions from Veterinary Ireland that a question on pets should be added to the census. That is a very helpful suggestion.

Senator Lynn Boylan

I do not think there would be any resistance here to that.

Nobody at any point is saying that we do not want rescue dogs to receive the same standard of veterinary care. Nobody is denying that the cost-of-living crisis affects vets, veterinary nurses and veterinary practices. At no point has anybody said that. In fact, we all accept that we are in a cost-of-living crisis and that inflation is running at about 12%, but what we are hearing is that veterinary costs have gone up by a minimum of 50%. An extra cost has gone on in respect of veterinary. I am interested to hear why that is the case. Why are veterinary costs being more impacted than every other cost and every other small business? Hoteliers, restaurants, cafes – everybody has to pay their staff and to deal with the rising cost of inflation but veterinary costs seem to have become an outlier with increases of between 50% and 60%.

Mr. Bill Cashman

A 50% to 60% increase in costs.

Senator Lynn Boylan

That is what we are hearing when we ask people.

Mr. Bill Cashman

From personal experience and the people I know, nobody has put up prices by that much. I know that airline tickets have gone up by 58%, and that is discretionary spending as well. The airlines are full. Our prices have definitely not gone up by 58%. I can put my hand on my heart and say that. I can say it for almost all practitioners with whom I speak.

Senator Lynn Boylan

Is there access to a rough guideline of the recommended prices for medical services? We can only take Mr. Cashman's word that it has not gone up by 50%. Likewise, we can only take the word of the people who are on the front line saying it has gone up by 50%.

I take on board that vets do a lot more than a GP clinic. I had my own experience with my dog during Hallowe'en and I got excellent care from the vet, but it cost €2,500. If I was not in a position to pay that, the dog would have been euthanised. I am not doubting the costs. I have a detailed bill and I would like to be able to compare it with the rates of another veterinary practice. It would be interesting to see if there is a standard price or if I am going to a particularly expensive vet.

Mr. Bill Cashman

We cannot have a standard price for veterinary fees. It is outlawed by the Competition and Consumer Protection Commission. Vets are not even allowed to speak to each other about prices or to set prices. Finbarr Murphy from Veterinary Ireland will tell the committee that it is absolutely verboten. We are not allowed to set prices.

Senator Lynn Boylan

I am not talking about setting prices. Is there nowhere we can get transparency around the guidelines to vindicate the position that fees have not gone up by 50%?

Mr. Bill Cashman

Under the Veterinary Practice Act, every veterinary practice has to display its fees in reception and people have to be told about prices in advance.

An Cathaoirleach

I will say something myself and then I will move to the next questioner. I will come back to the Senator at the end if she wants.

Mr. Finbarr Murphy

I have no idea where the 50% figure is coming from. There is no reason veterinary fees would have gone up by 50%. We did try to get CSO date on whether veterinary fees and costs have increased but there is no available data from the CSO.

On the possibility of entering into rate agreements with rescue centres, as Mr. Cashman has alluded to, we can have no role in the setting of fees. We would need to get the view of the Competition and Consumer Protection Commission on anything to do with having set rates for rescue centres. As it stands, I do not believe it would be happy with it.

Senator Lynn Boylan

My understanding is that it does happen around the country and there is no issue with competition.

Senator Paul Daly

I welcome the witnesses. As Senator Boylan stated, based on the brief we got the discussion I thought we were coming in to talk about is the impact of rising veterinary costs and dog ownership surrenders and abandoned dogs and the opening statements only skirted around that issue. There is not really a whole lot to say about it. Without being flippant or smart, I could not help thinking during the conversation of the one-liner where a man is in the garage buying a top-of-the-range Mercedes and he turns around to the salesman and asks how many miles to the gallon it does. The answer is that if you have to ask that question you cannot afford the car. I cannot stop thinking along those lines. It is down to awareness. I know both Departments have said it. It was mentioned in the opening statement that following the working group recommendations there would be awareness campaigns in the new year.

Anytime we have discussed animal welfare issues or small pets here, I have talked about my idea that when a dog is being licensed or chipped, it would be necessary for an animal's owner to do something similar to the driver theory test. Even a tick-box exercise would make owners aware of some of the demands and responsibilities of being a responsible pet owner. Included as part of such a test could and possibly should be the potential hidden costs that potential owners may not be aware of.

When a mother and father and a young child go into a pound to rescue a dog, and that five-, six- or seven-year-old falls in love with a dog, the last thing on their mind is what that is going to cost down the line. They are not going to break the child's heart, so they end up taking the dog. This matter is more for the witnesses from the Departments. I refer to a situation where if people went to register a dog, at least a small little bit of awareness and education might be imparted regarding correct responsibility and the unforeseen hiccups that might arise down the line. As I said, included in that context would be potential hidden costs that people might not be thinking of in that moment of joy when getting an animal. This all comes down to education and awareness.

The Minister is announcing a lot of money tomorrow for animal welfare groups. This is to be welcomed. A great deal is being done on the Government side to help the welfare groups, but we are here today talking about a situation where an individual gets a bill of €2,500. I am not saying Senator Boylan was overcharged, or anything like that, but, as was said, in many households the dog is gone at that stage. I am not castigating anyone here but unforeseen circumstances can arise after a dog has been got. When an unexpectedly large bill hits many households, it is not always possible to pay it. This is not through anyone's fault.

My question in this regard, for discussion purposes, concerns whether there is potential here for pet health insurance, where people would be paying a small amount for that regularly. I know this concept does exist. Is it gaining traction? Would it be a runner with the vets? If people were paying so much weekly or monthly, would there be potential here for such insurance to at least break the back of the shock of receiving such a sizeable bill? I would like to get the opinions of the witnesses from Veterinary Ireland concerning the potential that may exist for such a form of insurance. I would like to hear from the witnesses from the Departments, then, on the points I have made about raising awareness and education. This is as much about education as awareness.

Mr. Bill Cashman

I can try to answer this question first. It has been traditional among veterinary practices, and I have been in this business for about 45 years, that we would always help somebody along to pay bill on the drip, so to speak, that is, so much per week or so much upfront. We can help people that way. This has always been the essence and core of veterinary practice because we are supposed to be there to advocate for the animal as much as the owner. Sometimes, perhaps the right thing to do is euthanasia. Perhaps €2,500 or even €20,000 might not be enough to give a dog enough of a quality of life. Sometimes we see things like this. There was an article in the journal of the British Veterinary Association some years ago entitled "Just Because We Can, Should We?". We have had major advances in technology now. We have veterinary specialists who can do all kinds of surgeries on hearts, limbs, hips, backs, etc. Sometimes, you wonder if we are going too far. Perhaps this is a slightly different question.

Where a person cannot afford it but could afford it over time, there has always been a tradition of helping somebody to do that, if at all possible. The next step would be to go to a charity, if the client qualifies under the regulations for charities regarding assistance. The other option, which the Senator is talking about, is to have pet insurance. We have an uptake in this regard of about 30% in Ireland now, which is much lower than in the UK. Such insurance does definitely give us an awful lot more latitude to use the technology we have. Testing and diagnostics, for example, are often the most expensive part of treatment, as well as referral to a specialist vet. This is the same as with humans, where we have consultants who do specialist procedures.

However, there are limits to this insurance option as well, because insurance companies are not there really to help animals. They are gambling that a dog is going to stay healthy. Like our own Laya Healthcare or VHI health insurance, we do not like paying and we hope we never have to use it. Similarly, there are limits with pet insurance too. As animals get older, we find that the coverage reduces and the exclusions increase. There are also limits to allowable annual usage. A vet, for example, might have to get pre-authorisation from an insurance company before being able to refer an animal to a specialist vet. The Senator is correct that there is a place for pet insurance. It is very helpful. It must be recognised as well, however, where we are with the limits on discretionary spending. There are limits to it, unfortunately. We would all love to do everything but there is only so much that can be paid for. The only person who can pay the cost is, indeed, the animal owner.

An Cathaoirleach

I am sorry to interrupt, but we have a vote in the Chamber, so I must suspend the meeting for the duration of this vote.

Sitting suspended at 6.26 p.m. and resumed at 7.24 p.m.

Senator Paul Daly

The witnesses were in the process of answering my questions.

An Cathaoirleach

I think the lads were finished and the witnesses from the Department were about to respond. Is that accurate? Does Mr. Ryan or Ms Kelly wish to respond?

Ms Deirdre Kelly

We were responding on the awareness piece. Does Mr. Ryan wish to go first?

Mr. Eoin Ryan

The Senator's points on the importance of awareness and education are well made. As I mentioned in my opening statement, we have an advisory council on companion animal welfare which advises the Minister on these issues. It comprises a range of stakeholder groups, including Veterinary Ireland, the ISPCA, the DSPCA, Dogs Trust Ireland, the Irish Blue Cross and others. One of the things it is considering and advising us on is exactly that issue of how to promote responsible pet ownership. As Ms Kelly will probably point out in a few minutes, we are collaborating closely with our colleagues in the Department of Rural and Community Development on the issue of responsible dog ownership. An example of that responsible dog and other pet ownership piece is our recent campaign on brachycephalic dogs, for instance. These are the flat-faced dogs, which may have many animal welfare issues. We are trying to encourage awareness of that in order to move away from extreme breeding practices.

On the point in respect of unforeseen bills, I highlight that we provide animal welfare grants each year. Last year, it was €5.8 million to 99 charities. Of that amount, €4.7 million was to 73 dog-specific charities. As the Senator stated, we are expecting the grants for this year to be announced soon, possibly tomorrow.

Senator Paul Daly

I have the information here but it is embargoed and I do not want to spill the beans. I would get myself into trouble.

Mr. Eoin Ryan

I am definitely not going to break the embargo.

An Cathaoirleach

We would not tell anyone.

Mr. Eoin Ryan

Last year, we provided substantial funding to two veterinary charities, namely, the Irish Blue Cross and St. Francis Veterinary. They received €480,000 and €37,000, respectively. That is an example of the Minister's support in respect of the issue of unexpected veterinary bills. Those are some of our activities. I will pass over to my colleague from the Department of Rural and Community Development to deal with responsible dog ownership issues specifically.

Ms Deirdre Kelly

I referred in my opening statement to the funding assigned to us in the budget to conduct a significant awareness campaign in the early part of next year. We are planning that campaign. In that context, the approach we will take is to move away from a dog control approach and towards a more responsible dog ownership approach. It will take the form of building and supporting individuals who wish to own dogs to be more responsible in that ownership and consider things like vet bills down the line and health issues that may come up for the dog. If a person gets a young dog, the likelihood is the dog will have several years of life. We are trying to build the capacity of people who are considering owning dogs to think about those kinds of things, including, in particular, the legislation-based responsibilities in respect of having the dog under effectual control in public areas and all that. We want to ensure they think about these things in the lead-up to a decision to have a dog. It will be coming at it from that perspective and then building on that, trying to support people in a positive way because dogs enrich people's lives. They are companions. It is a good thing to own a dog. The approach we will take to the campaign is that there are positive aspects to owning a dog as well as responsibilities. It will be a substantial campaign over a period of time and will involve a lot of stakeholders. We have the same approach as the Senator with regard to building awareness and education. We want to ensure people who own or plan to own dogs know what their responsibilities are and what is expected of them in the context of their lives but also the lives of the dogs.

Deputy Johnny Mythen

On surrender requests, it is difficult to believe that of the 1,889 cases, only 24 relate to financial and medical circumstances. That does not sound right. I disagree with Mr. Cashman in one respect. In my area at least, it is as expensive to go to a vet as it to go to a GP. I know he has to represent the views of his members but I have to represent my constituents. I hear that on the ground and, as I am a dog owner, I know exactly some of the costs involved. Some of the costs are phenomenal. Does the Department have a breakdown of veterinary costs for each area? There was reference to €2 million in capital funding, but also to a 300% increase in the context of pounds. As regards the €2 million , what was the figure for 2021, 2022 and 2023? There was reference to agreed rates and discounts.

Is that across the board or is it each individual veterinarian?

Mr. Bill Cashman

Arrangements are normally done individually, private practice by private practice. They would be between a local charity and a practice it would select or it would go around to the different practices and to see what discounts it could get. There are practices that do that type of work. As I said, however, it has to be a minimum standard and the cost can only be cut so much. I do not have any figures on breakdowns as to how many do it or how many do not. As far as I know, Veterinary Ireland would not have that type of data either because that is a private arrangement between a veterinary practice and whatever charity is involved.

Ms Deirdre Kelly

I will take the question on the €2 million capital funding. That is a new fund this year in line with commitments that were made in the working group report around supports for, in particular, small-scale works on the pounds and the provision of vehicles to the dog wardens. The Department of Rural and Community Development has not provided funding like that in the past. This was the first time we provided funding like that.

Deputy Johnny Mythen

Are the wardens covered by the county councils?

Ms Deirdre Kelly

The actual warden service itself is dealt with through the local government side of the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage. It is the responsibility of local authorities, yes. This is additional funding to any funding that would be distributed through housing for the employment of dog wardens. This is a capital fund for equipment as such.

Deputy Johnny Mythen

It is for equipment.

Ms Deirdre Kelly

Yes, for equipment, particularly vehicles. During the working group report process it was indicated that there was a need for dog wardens to get new or updated vehicles. That was what the funding identified in the working group report was for. It is for that and for other small capital works that might be needed in a pound in a particular area.

Deputy Johnny Mythen

What is the funding for extra wardens? What way does that work?

Ms Deirdre Kelly

The way the wardens are appointed is through the local government finance side on the environment side. Our Minister, Deputy Humphreys, is in discussions with the Minister, Deputy Darragh O'Brien, regarding the commitment in the working group report about increasing the number of wardens. That is not related to the €2 million fund we have given out in the last couple of weeks, however. That is a capital fund with regard to equipment and vehicles.

Deputy Johnny Mythen

Who was supplying that before?

Ms Deirdre Kelly

There was no supply of it before, certainly not from the Department of Rural and Community Development anyway.

Deputy Johnny Mythen

I thank Ms Kelly.

Ms Deirdre Kelly

That is no problem.

An Cathaoirleach

I call Deputy Flaherty.

Deputy Joe Flaherty

I thank the speakers for coming in. With regard to the issue of veterinary costs, I can probably only speak from my experience about the veterinarians who are dealing with the animal charities locally in County Longford. They are very reasonable. I assisted one of those groups with a grant application. From what I have seen of what the veterinarians are charging, I do not think it is disproportionate. It is probably quite fair. It is probably a reduced fee in terms of what they are charging.

I have a query for the Department regarding when there has been a report of a dangerous animal and the warden or agent of the warden feels that he or she is not able to seize that dog because there is a welfare issue for the warden. What recourse have we at that stage then to get that acted upon?

Mr. Conall Calleary

I manage the dog warden service on the ground in Sligo. If we or if the warden feels there is an issue with going to a location, there is a good working relationship with local gardaí on the ground on both sides. If gardaí feel they need help, they will contact the warden and on the opposite side, the warden will contact the gardaí. That is the working relationship that has developed on the ground. I am sure it is pretty similar in many local authorities. We do work a good bit with the gardaí. In Sligo, we have done joint operations with gardaí involving particularly restricted breeds and dangerous dogs. There is a good working relationship on the ground there.

Deputy Joe Flaherty

Okay. There is no reason the gardaí would not do that. If the request is made, they will do that.

Mr. Conall Calleary

We have never had a request turned down. Obviously, they have their own issues with resources and everything but wherever possible, they will either do it straight away or we can arrange times to do things. It depends on the situation. If it is an urgent situation, they will come straight away or if it is something that can be planned, which is probably better sometimes, then it will be done that way too.

Deputy Joe Flaherty

While I have Mr. Calleary, I will ask for a personal observation from him. Does he think we are getting to grips with the whole thing of responsible dog ownership? Would he say that we regressed post Covid in that?

Mr. Conall Calleary

The Covid surge is still trying to find its way through the system. Many people took on dogs maybe not knowing what they were taking on. That has led to the problems we are seeing at the moment on the ground. That is slowly changing. I see that a couple of dog breeders we would be responsible for have cut back a lot on their numbers. They are not breeding as many dogs at all because the market is not there for them. What we would be hoping is that it will settle down to some degree. Responsible dog ownership is a bigger issue. It kind of ties into dog fouling. It also ties into ownership of bigger restricted breeds and the needs of owning those specific breeds. On the restricted breeds, we have an awful lot of good owners of those dogs out there but we do have a minority of them and they are who we need to focus on more.

Deputy Joe Flaherty

There will probably be a reasonable case to be made as well. There is one agency we never bring in to talk about dogs because we do not give it a remit in that area. Particularly, if we look at most family environments, the decision to buy a dog is invariably fuelled by children and then the children lose their appetite. However, we never do anything with the Department of Education or have any programmes in schools regarding responsible pet ownership.

Mr. Conall Calleary

There are projects out there. Dogs Trust Ireland does have education officers. Now, they are not nationwide-----

Deputy Joe Flaherty

No, they are very Dublin centred.

Mr. Conall Calleary

-----but they do go to schools and work with schools. If the Deputy goes on its website, it has specific programmes that teachers can download to use to work in class as well. The resources are out there. It is just to try to-----

Deputy Joe Flaherty

The are just very Dublin centred. Mr. Calleary has not seen any local authority do a scheme like that that of which he is aware.

Mr. Conall Calleary

Resource is probably the big issue. In Sligo, we have one warden. They are put to the pins of their collar. If we got extra resources, it is something we would look into, definitely, because, as I said, that is where people will learn. I have a dog myself. I tend to meet two or three fathers regularly and we all say the same thing. It was the children's idea, but we are the ones out walking the dogs. If we can get the children, we will get a much better return.

Deputy Joe Flaherty

I think we can agree that children are very similar when it comes to dogs. They want them and then they do not want them. With regard to the-----

An Cathaoirleach

I am sorry, Deputy Flaherty. Did Mr. Cashman want to add something?

Mr. Bill Cashman

This just struck me as we were all talking here about all the problems of dog ownership, which is quite correct because there are a lot of problems. It is just that over my time, I have seen that the standard of dog ownership has gone way up. The standard of dog and pet health in general has gone up. Whatever we say about kids, they really know not only their own dog but everyone in the park as well. We should not lose sight of the fact that 95% of the people are very well-informed and up to speed with it. They are committed to this animal and their lifestyle is built around it. We should not lose sight of that. As far as I remember, Veterinary Ireland has had a number of schemes for going into schools where a number of local practices would send in a veterinarian or veterinarian nurse who would take in an animal and it sells itself. That is where these schemes will work best.

Deputy Joe Flaherty

We are certainly not saying there is an issue with them. We appreciate that huge strides have been made. We have an awful lot of very responsible pet owners but similarly, 5% of irresponsible pet owners is still 5% too many. That is what we need to address.

In terms of the Department, does Ms Kelly think there is potential for engagement with the Department of Education? We probably look at many families in terms of the focus we are putting on special education and pets and their importance in a home. Does Ms Kelly not think there is a huge educational advantage in linking up with the Department? There could probably be some more prudent spending of our money in terms of the high-profile media campaigns we are spending money on sometimes.

Ms Deirdre Kelly

Yes. As a point of information, we are going to be doing some work supporting Leitrim County Council next year in providing some training to dog wardens, which will include elements of engaging with schools, etc., and building the capacity of children around the dog side of things. An element of the dog warden training will include that with the idea being then that the dog wardens have the capacity to go into schools and talk to children about dogs. Our awareness campaign will include an element of - targeting is probably the wrong word - focusing on children and young people as well.

That will form part of the awareness campaign. We are very aware of the fact that young people are probably the primary reason for getting a dog in the first place, particularly in the lead-up to Christmas. Given their rationale and reasoning for getting a dog, any awareness campaign should also be targeted at them. Some will be a little too young, but older children and teenagers should be made aware of the responsibility of dog ownership just as much as their parents are.

Deputy Joe Flaherty

That is very good to hear. When the Department rolls out that scheme in Leitrim, I ask it to feed back into the committee how it goes and the type of feedback it gets from that. It has enormous potential. We need to be doing a lot more in schools and we need to be sowing the seeds of positive dog ownership much earlier. At the moment, we are reacting rather than sowing the seeds of responsible dog ownership.

Ms Deirdre Kelly

Absolutely. We will be doing it through Leitrim County Council but it will be for all dog wardens across the country.

Senator Tim Lombard

I apologise because I was delayed at a previous meeting. This is a very important issue. Mr. Cashman has exceptional experience of private practice in the last 40 years. Given the challenges at the private practice level with regard to dealing with dog ownership, are vets under pressure at times due to the obligation of a veterinary practice to treat animals? Does Mr. Cashman find that some practitioners are always to the fore and will treat animals, but they might not be getting the financial reward for that afterwards? When vets take over their jobs, they swear an oath to do what they do as vets, and they will always take care of an animal. Does Mr. Cashman believe there is a burden on a private practice veterinary surgeon with regard to the financial implications of doing the job on the ground?

Mr. Bill Cashman

I do not know what the future is going to bring but we have always managed up to this and I see no reason we will not manage, even with the financial constraints. As I said earlier, even during Covid, we were told we were to stay open, and we just did so and that was the end of it. The Minister announced that we were staying open and we just soldiered on. Of course, there are a lot of well-known pressures with regard to lifestyle and work-life balance in veterinary practice, although that is not on the agenda today. We have very high rates of mental health problems and very high suicide rates, although other people probably have the same types of pressures.

As I said, we have the same commercial imperatives that all small businesses have, and we are very small businesses. There are no outside supports, such as the supports for doctors, with almost €1 billion going to GPs for premises and so on, and the hospitality sector got the 9% VAT rate to make things easier in recent years. That does not happen for vets. We have never sought or been successful in getting any of those things. There are only about 3,000 vets in total in the country so we are not a very big constituency.

It has always been the case that you answer for what your client wants. Vets do the best they can for the patient and for the client, and they have to balance the two, given that sometimes the rights of the animal are not best served by the wants of the owner. Most of the time, we can work around that but it is a question of balancing it and trying to be as professional as we can be. Whether the person is able to afford the most expensive specialists or not, we can generally work our way around it.

Senator Tim Lombard

The level of care has totally changed in the last 40 years, as Mr. Cashman said. What a veterinary surgeon can do now compared to what happened back in the day, in Noel Buckley's time, is totally different. With the modernisation of practices and what can be treated and scanned for, we cannot compare the two.

Mr. Bill Cashman

The whole world has moved on. Cars are better and phones are better, or worse. That is just the pressure of life. I think vets have adapted quite well. For example, one of the big things was that we moved from film X-ray to digital X-ray literally in about five years, it was that quick, and that was just in the first-opinion practices. The specialist practices that have developed worldwide have now arrived here as well. It is all down to what people want and what they can afford. However, it still comes back to the point that the only person who can pay for that service at the moment is the person who owns the animal. There are no hidden subsidies, aids or state aids, and the only supports I can remember getting were the Covid payment and the electricity subsidies, which were extremely welcome, but everybody has to deal with those.

Senator Tim Lombard

On the financial issue, insurance has become a big part of practice in the last five to ten years, with people making sure they have insurance for their animals, which is basically a health insurance policy. How beneficial has that been for dog ownership? Have the general public engaged more because they have the insurance policy and does that put more pressure on veterinary practice?

An Cathaoirleach

That was answered earlier so Mr. Cashman might give a short answer.

Mr. Bill Cashman

As we said to Senator Daly, insurance is a big help. It is thought there is only about 30% penetration of the Irish market, and nobody has absolute figures on it. It does help in what we can do but, equally, there are limits because the insurance company puts caps on it.

Senator Victor Boyhan

I thank the officials from the Department of agriculture and the Department of rural and community affairs. They have engaged whereas some people do not take this issue that seriously. Well done to them. We have read their statements, for which I thank them.

I want to leave the witnesses with one point regarding local authority responsibilities for the operation of dog breeding establishments. We know they are responsible but they do not altogether know their responsibilities. I speak to sitting county councillors every day and, again, they have gone to their local authorities on this issue. I have come across people in my own local authority area where there is dog breeding going on with up to six, seven or eight dogs in a semi-detached house with a small garden, smaller than the inner circle of this meeting room. Of course, if people make a complaint, they are put through the hoops and they have to give their name and address, and there are sometimes very aggressive people involved, perhaps people involved in other unsavoury activities. Neighbours are being pitched against each other. I am talking about the Dublin local authorities, which I have more experience of. They do not want to know. They say it has to be put in writing and, of course, people have issues with that. There is a real issue. In Dublin, I see that there are still very large dogs in one-bedroom apartments. When people make complaints, they are intimidated, and when they then go to the local authority or otherwise, they are not supported.

There are a lot of issues and this impacts on animal welfare. We need to crystallise the responsibilities. We need an advertising campaign and we need to support people. The public generally are watchdogs in terms of animal welfare and our best animal welfare policing mechanism is our citizens, farmers and so on. I am not convinced that people are supported in regard to reporting dog breeding in very inappropriate circumstances. I do not need the witnesses to respond but I ask them to take this away with them. We need to crystallise the responsibilities and we need a public education programme. I particularly thank the Department of Rural and Community Development, which has done a lot of work on this. It is something that we need to continue to build on with the CCMA to see how we can do it. It is about empowering people to be able to report issues with regard to animal welfare but, more importantly, that they are then supported and not exposed or intimidated in the process.

Well done to all involved. I thank the witnesses for giving us their time today.

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice

I have several questions. Did I pick up from earlier questions that there would be a campaign on television on the need to look after dogs after Christmas? Is that correct?

Ms Deirdre Kelly

No, it is an awareness campaign in the new year.

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice

At the moment, many people are thinking about buying dogs. Before they do, they should know that dogs will be with them for a fair while and they could live ten, 11, 12 or even 15 or 16 years. We need to be hitting the point hard before Christmas. Everyone who sees a dog loves the look of the dog, but they have to remember that they will be there for a long time and there are costs associated with them.

We need to be hitting that home hard.

What is the budget per year, between councils and these groups or homes that take in dogs, to look after all of this?

Ms Deirdre Kelly

The responsibilities around dogs are distributed across a number of Departments-----

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice

Yes, I know but I am wondering what the total cost is?

Ms Deirdre Kelly

I do not know the answer to that question regarding dogs. Is the Deputy referring to the actual pounds?

An Cathaoirleach

Is there any chance of that, Mr. Ryan? The Department should know.

Mr. Eoin Ryan

I can provide information on the charities the Minister provides funding to. For instance, last year, €5.8 million was provided by the Minister to 99 animal welfare charities, and as Senator Daly said, we expect an imminent announcement on the 2023 animal welfare grants. To give the Deputy an idea of scale, in 2018 it was €2.7 million, and it went up to €2.9 million in 2019.

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice

Does the Department give it to councils? Obviously, there are councils as well. Who gives it to the councils? That is more money.

Mr. Eoin Ryan

I am talking specifically about money given by the Minister for agriculture to the welfare charities.

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice

To dog homes?

Mr. Eoin Ryan

Yes, exactly.

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice

What I am asking is does anyone know what the councils get as well?

Ms Deirdre Kelly

I stand corrected. I do have some information. In the context of the local authorities, there is a certain amount of funding that is given through local government financing housing, and the rest of it is generated through dog licensing. I have some figures here. The total expenditure regarding dog control in 2022 was €8.01 million. The income from licences was €4.34 million. The income from on-the-spot fines was €79,000. The income from other sources was €205,000, and the deficit met by the local authorities through the funding they received via housing was €3.38 million.

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice

No matter how we go, there is about €14 million or €15 million being spent between different Departments, between grants the Minister gives, and what is given to local authorities. This is to solve something that should not be, to be quite frank about it. This is for the simple reason that when one gets a dog, one is responsible for it. When one buys a car, there is a tax book with it, and wherever it is got, one is done. That is the long and the short of it. We need to get a bit tougher on this craic. It is lovely looking at something but the message has to be clear that there are responsibilities with it.

Regarding the talk about costs or whatever, a lot of young vets are now going into small animals because at least they will not be kicked like they would with a bullock. That is the reality, and there is no point in saying anything different. In cities, a lot of people have a lot of pets. The numbers have blown up. In fact, we could do with some of the vets out the country in a lot of cases. I see it in England with regard to horses and dogs, where people were brought down the road of this insurance craic, and all it did was put them straight into the hands of vets, being straight about it. It was a licence that gave them more money. That is being straight.

An Cathaoirleach

In fairness to the veterinary profession, it was the corporates that were exploiting it.

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice

Yes but it is corporates in the UK, that is what I am on about. I am not on about corporates here.

An Cathaoirleach

Not individual vets.

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice

I am not saying that. I am saying that to the corporates in the UK, it was manna from heaven. With regard to the vets, in fairness to any vet - and we have a few dogs at home ourselves - any time you go to the vet, they will tell you before they start. If there is a problem and an operation to be done, they will give a fairly good guide as to what it will cost. You can decide then, as Mr. Cashman said earlier on, whether you want to do it or if you are just prolonging it for a few weeks or months, if kidneys are giving trouble and the animal needs to be put down. People have to make those decisions. You do not run a veterinary practice for nothing. In fairness, I have seen over the past five years - and I do not know what studies have been done - that when they bring the dog to get their vaccines and all that different stuff, they bring them because, in fairness, the lady of the house is better at minding them. They look after the dog, and Jesus, it is like the dog is nearly minded better than myself.

Senator Lynn Boylan

Is the Deputy not able to mind himself?

An Cathaoirleach

He is not looking neglected.

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice

When the dog is brought to the vet, they get their vaccines etc. Over the last five years, in my opinion - and I often ask how much that costs - it has nearly been the same price over the last four or five years, bar you are going for something big like an operation. That is going into a different category. It is like horses. There is now a hospital for horses. It is going to cost more, simple as that, if you are going to be doing it. I know that people try to keep them alive and do their best for them. I see so many people, especially elderly people. It is their only companion in a lot of cases. They have a little dog and it is a companion to them. It is good for them, like when they go out walking with the dog. The one thing we have to watch in certain areas is where there are problems with dogs. There is no point in saying there is not. If you are in an apartment and you hear a dog barking all night, it is not the greatest thing when you are next door to it. You have to be watching things like that. There is more responsibility needed.

I would encourage the witnesses to do something before Christmas. Everyone will see a lovely dog somewhere, and when it is a young kid, people hate refusing them. This is the problem. The mammy and the daddy need to know that with the dog comes a fair bit of responsibility and other costs down the line. It would be good that when the witnesses are doing their awareness programmes, they would give a rough idea as to what a dog costs every year on a normal run of the mill. I see dogs for which €700 or €800 and €1,500 or €1,600 is given. There is no point giving out about a vet then if he charges €50 to throw a drop of Panacur or whatever into them.

Senator Lynn Boylan

Does anyone want to answer that?

An Cathaoirleach

I do not think they do. Senator Boylan has five minutes.

Senator Lynn Boylan

Yes, and I am conscious that people need to get on the road and have been here a long time. I wanted to ask a few questions around the surrendering for behavioural issues, which has been accepted as one of the things that is cited with people surrendering dogs. I want to ask the Department whether funding should be provided for more rescue dog trainers? I will go back to that Amárach research where 27% of people said that one of the blockages in respect of taking a rescue dog is the fact that people are concerned about behavioural problems. I know a lot of the bigger welfare organisations have dog behaviourists and they do a lot of work, particularly guiding you to the right type of dog to fit your lifestyle. Is that something that should be considered? Especially with the Covid-19 surge, it might help us get to those dogs fit for rehoming.

My last question is around what is happening across the water with the bully breeds. Are we doing any preparation or monitoring to make sure those bully breeds are now not going to arrive in the rescue centres here? That has been flagged by a number of the rescue organisations and they are really concerned. They have already got a large number of bully breeds among their rescue dogs and they are a harder dog to rehome. Is that something we are monitoring, and have we put in place a plan to deal with it if it manifests itself?

Mr. Eoin Ryan

I might answer the first part of the Senator's question about increased funding for charities and the specific dog trainer element. As Senator Daly mentioned, we expect the announcement to be made very soon on the charity grants for 2023. There will be a reflection that there are particular pressures on the dog sector this year. The Senator will see that reflected. We have a dog trainer representative from the Association of Pet Dog Trainers Ireland on the advisory council for companion animal welfare. The issue the Senator has raised is something we often discuss at those meetings, which is that issue of behavioural challenges in rescue dogs. It can be so rewarding to have a rescue dog but there can also be challenges with them. It is important that people are aware of that, and that support be provided. As the Senator said, some of the larger charities have that expertise, so it something that is certainly a subject of discussion.

Then there is the issue of whether there was any impact from the UK proposals on XL bullies.

That is also a matter that has been raised at these meetings, at which representatives of dog charities and veterinarians have been present. It is something we are certainly aware of. It is worth noting that the UK proposals are specific to England and Wales. I do not think it is proposed they will be brought in to Scotland or Northern Ireland. The movement of particular breeds from England and Wales to Ireland or other jurisdictions is on our radar and we are aware of it. I will hand over to Ms Kelly.

Ms Deirdre Kelly

Following on from what Mr. Ryan said about the XL bully breeds, we have had interactions in the recent past, within the past couple of months, with our colleagues in Northern Ireland. We have another meeting at the end of this week with our UK colleagues. We are keeping a close eye on the situation relating to XL bullies. Part of our responsibility also relates to the Control of Dogs Act, which includes the restricted breeds list. Any changes or amendments to that legislation will be part of the discussions that will be held at the stakeholder group, which will also include a behavioural expert in the context of those behavioural issues. The whole discussion around what Ireland will do in respect of restricted breeds will form part of the information gathering exercise for the stakeholder group around the change of the Control of Dogs Act.

There may be an argument or a debate within Ireland that the XL bullies are already covered by the restricted breeds list. A mix of breeds are already covered on the list and the Act states specifically that any mix of the breeds is covered by the list. The Taoiseach has already stated that the discussion around banning breeds is not something that has come up. Those are all parts of the discussion that will be had at the stakeholder group. The issues of banning breeds, extending restricted breeds lists or adding additional breeds to the restricted lists will all form part of the considerations of the stakeholder group. That will be informed by people who have expertise in dog behaviour.

Senator Lynn Boylan

Is the option of doing away with the restricted breeds also being looked at?

Ms Deirdre Kelly

Everything will be on the table.

Senator Lynn Boylan

Italy and the Netherlands did away with their restricted breeds lists.

Ms Deirdre Kelly

They did.

Senator Lynn Boylan

Their dog attack numbers have come down because they also incorporated a large enforcement regime, which seems to have been effective.

Ms Deirdre Kelly

All of that will be part of the conversation. It is the reason we are not rushing into making any sort of knee-jerk changes on the basis of what is happening in the UK. A complicated and complex conversation needs to be had and any changes to the legislation in general, and specifically to the legislation around restricted breeds, need to be thought out carefully to ensure the system is robust, lasts and is future-proofed, etc.

Deputy Cathal Crowe

I have been following the meeting from my office. I am not a member of the committee but Members are occasionally allowed to come in if there is a topic of interest. I want to ask a question of Mr. Doyle and Mr. Ryan from the Department. Have local authorities sufficient staff to support the Department on the ground?

Mr. Eoin Ryan

May I ask the Deputy to be more specific about what he means?

Deputy Cathal Crowe

In Clare, one man deals with every animal welfare issue on behalf of the local authority. He deals with everything from an escaped parrot to dogs or horses that are out on the road. He is an incredible guy named Frankie Coote. He is excellent. Everyone is hugely complimentary about him. He has a slot on the radio every Friday morning. He is on the radio and goes out later to bring in horses. He advises people on dog welfare. What I am hearing is there is only one of him in most counties. Some counties do not even have someone like that.

Mr. Eoin Ryan

I will comment on the animal welfare aspect. The Department has a large number of authorised officers under the Animal Health and Welfare Act. Most Department vets would be authorised and, of course, each county is covered by a regional veterinary office. The office in Limerick, for example, covers Limerick and Clare. Every member of the Garda is an authorised officer. In addition, nine inspectors from the Irish Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, ISPCA, are authorised officers. Four inspectors from Dublin Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, DSPCA, are authorised officers. It is up to those organisations to decide how best they allocate their resources across the country.

From his office, the Deputy may have heard me mention that we provide funding to a number of animal welfare charities around the country. The Minister provided €5.8 million to 99 such charities right across the country last year. Those are in every county. They are large, small and medium-sized charities that provide a range of services, including, for instance, awareness raising and education. One of the points made earlier - it was raised by the Deputy - related to the importance of raising awareness of issues such as responsible dog ownership. That is a large part of it. It is important, of course, to intervene when animals are in need.

An Cathaoirleach

Mr. Calleary has local authority responsibility. Each county council has some responsibility. Do the county councils have enough resources? That was the Deputy's question.

Mr. Conall Calleary

Every local authority would like more resources. Ideally, we would prefer to have more wardens on the ground. As Deputy Crowe said, it is usually one warden in most counties and, particularly in rural areas, that one warden covers everything. The issue has been looked at as part of the working group. It was mentioned earlier that discussions are ongoing. Responsibility for dog warden employment and conditions come under the responsibility of the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage. I have heard that the Department is involved in discussions about extra resources for wardens. We on the ground would welcome that.

Deputy Cathal Crowe

My last question, if the Cathaoirleach will permit me, is in the same vein of dual responsibility and who has jurisdiction. It is frustrating in my county, and I know the situation is replicated around the country, that when equines are on the loose, local authorities and the Departments spend a few days trying to figure out if they are on public or private land, whether we can go in and, if we can, who should go in. The Garda receives calls at the same time. There seems to be a breakdown for a few days as we try to identify the responsible body. There are different sections and legislation. There should be a mechanism to iron that out sooner. Local authorities and Departments can identify land ownership quite quickly. We need to move quicker.

When I grew up, we did not have any land so we did not have a horse. Some people nowadays think they have a God-given right to have a horse and to put it wherever they want. They might even put it in the front living room of a local authority house, tethered to the local signpost or running amok in the local retail park. There is no apology for that. There should be no acceptance of it. The law is quite robust in terms of horse ownership and welfare. Our guests, as representatives of local authorities and the Department of agriculture, need to move in and take some of those horses, ensure they are microchipped and look at their welfare. I am seeing far too many horses tethered to poles and with their ribcages showing. There is no culture or right that allows you a God-given right to own a horse. If you do not have the land and are not prepared to pay for livery or cannot pay someone to mind the horse or to lease land, you should not have a horse.

Mr. Conall Calleary

May I comment? We on the ground are working a lot with the Department in respect of horses. The Department recently ran a seminar on urban horses and a lot of work has been done in that regard. I can only speak for Sligo, but we would not tolerate the situation the Deputy has described. We would be proactive in lifting horses if needs be. We have done that and will continue to do so.

There are issues over horse ownership. We have also encountered issues where animals are on land where, because of receiverships and different things, there can be issues. Generally speaking, we would be proactive in trying to get in there, particularly-----

Deputy Cathal Crowe

With respect, if I may interject, many people are being given a pass card. Perhaps that is not the case in Mr. Calleary's organisation but people around the country are being a pass card because they have a family tradition of owning horses. We all come from a family tradition of owning horses. Every family in this country had a farming background at one point. If you go through your own family album, you will see horses and donkeys bringing your family to the town or the fair, or wherever else. We all come from that background. That does not give us a right to have a horse tethered to every corner.

An Cathaoirleach

The Deputy has made his point. I call Mr. McDermott.

Mr. Paul McDermott

On a point of information, a new tendering arrangement is being put in place for the collection of horses nationally. That should be rolled out very soon. It is at the end point of being put out there.

An Cathaoirleach

Just in case he will growl at me tomorrow, I will say that we in Tipperary have a very good county council vet who does a lot of work with stray horses. I say that just in case he comes at me tomorrow.

I work closely with him and in fairness to him, he is very active on the ground.

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice

Is he from north Tipperary?

An Cathaoirleach

He is a Limerick man.

On behalf of the committee, I thank the witnesses for their contributions. We will suspend the meeting to allow them to leave and the witnesses for the next session to take their seats.

Sitting suspended at 8.10 p.m. and resumed at 8.13 p.m.