JOINT COMMITTEE ON ARTS, SPORT, TOURISM, COMMUNITY, RURAL AND GAELTACHT AFFAIRS debate -
Wednesday, 19 Feb 2003

Vol. 1 No. 4

Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs: Ministerial Presentation.

Chairman

I welcome the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, Deputy Ó Cuív. Is é seo an chéad uair go bhfuil sé os chomhair an chomhcoiste seo. Tá cúraimí troma ar an Aire agus ar an Aire Stáit. Tá gnóthaí pobail agus tuaithe fíor-thábachtach in iarthar na tíre. Léiríodh seo le déanaí leis an roinnt airgid do bhóithre a tháinig ón Údarás Náisiúnta Bóithre. Tá fadhbanna an phobail fite fuaite le fadhbanna na Gaeltachta agus na Gaeilge agus tá cuid mhór ama caite ag an Aire ar an teanga. Má leanfaidh cúrsaí mar atá siad, ní bheidh an Ghaeilge linn mar theanga labhartha i gceann glúine. Tá na teorannacha Gaeltachta ina n-ábhair conspóid agus magaidh ag an bhomaite fosta. Tá rudaí maithe ann, áfach, maidir le Bille na dTeangacha Oifigiúla, moltaí Choimisiún na Gaeltactha agus an scrúdú a rinne sé ar na teorannacha Gaeltachta.

We still await the Minister of State, Deputy Noel Ahern, but both the Minister and the Minister of State are welcome on their first visit to the committee. Their duties are very onerous. Community, rural and Gaeltacht affairs are particularly important in those parts of the country that do not enjoy the benefits of living on the east coast. The recent allocation of resources for the National Roads Authority bears testament to that. Community problems, the Irish language and Gaeltacht difficulties are intertwined, and Minister Ó Cuív has devoted much of his efforts, quite rightly, to the language. If present trends continue, Irish will be purely an academic subject in a couple of generations. Some of the existing Gaeltacht boundaries are the subject of ridicule, and perhaps justifiably so, thereby creating a very negative image.

However, there are positive signs, including the official language Bill, the follow up to Coimisiún na Gaeltachta, the formal review of the Gaeltacht boundaries and so on. The Minister of State, Deputy Ahern, when he arrives, will deal with the challenging brief he has, not least in terms of the national drugs strategy. The drugs problem is a truly global issue. I intend to call first upon Minister Ó Cuív to speak and then to offer the two main Opposition spokespersons ten minutes each to reply. I shall then ask the two Ministers to respond, before opening the discussion to the rest of the committee. If the Minister of State arrives in time, we shall take his contribution after that of Minister Ó Cuív.

Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs (Éamon Ó Cuív)

Have we translation facilities here?

Chairman

We do not. I raised that matter again today at the meeting of committee chairpersons. It is still being pursued, but we do not have translation facilities in place here today, which is very disappointing for us.

Éamon Ó Cuív

The Cathaoirleach is in luck as I have copies of the speech in both Irish and English. It would be fair, in the circumstances, to read my script in English. Is trua liom nach bhfuil córas aistriúcháin ann. Dá mbeimís in aon tír eile, ghlacfaí leis go mbeadh córas ann agus go bhféadfadh daoine labhairt ina rogha de theanga agus go mbeadh sé ar fáil do dhuine sa teanga ba rogha leis. Ní mar sin atá sé agus mar sin leanfaidh mé i mBéarla ach tá sé thar a bheith tábhachtach go mbeadh córas aistriúcháin ar fáil, ní amháin sa Dáil ach in achan seomra coiste.

It is a pity there is not a simultaneous translation system in place in a country with two official languages. The purpose of translation is not to serve those who can speak the Irish language but those who cannot, so that they can receive the statement in the language of their choice. I regret that I am effectively forced to speak in English only today, but that is the way it is.

I am pleased, notwithstanding this, to speak to the committee about the plans and targets we are setting for the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs over the next three years or so. I thank the Chairperson, in particular, for the invitation extended to myself and the Minister of State, Deputy Noel Ahern, to speak to the committee. The Minister of State and I propose to outline for the committee the overall strategic direction of the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs for the period 2003-05. Our outline will be based on the outcome of the process we are undertaking of drawing up a strategy statement for the new Department. I expect to be in a position to publish that statement shortly, following its approval by Government. I will forward copies of the document to this committee.

Members will appreciate, therefore, that it may not be possible today to be definitive about the detail of our proposed strategy statement, but we will make every effort to give as much information as we can. The Minister of State, Deputy Ahern, will concentrate on the areas of community development and tackling drug misuse, while I will outline the general background to the new Department and some of the issues we have addressed in drawing up our strategy statement. I will also focus briefly on other areas of our remit, including local development, rural, Gaeltacht and island development and the Irish language.

Members will be aware that when announcing the decision to establish the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, the Taoiseach gave it a clear mandate to produce a more co-ordinated engagement by the State with communities around the country as they pursue their own development. In listing the types of programmes for which the Department would be given responsibility, community and local development, including drugs and volunteering, and rural development, including the Leader, CLÁR and western development programmes, the Taoiseach made it clear that the Government was placing a focus on communities, particularly those that are vulnerable or under threat. Providing support to communities to enable them to identify and address problems in their own areas is seen as the best way forward, whether the communities are in rural or inner-city settings or grappling with difficulties caused by factors such as declining population, unemployment, language issues, social disadvantage or drug misuse.

In providing assistance to those communities, we must be ever mindful of the need to foster and maintain the community spirit that is evident throughout the country, whether in urban, rural, Gaeltacht or island contexts. The purpose must always be to provide support to communities in the most appropriate way as they work to share their own futures, address their common goals and achieve their full potential. The new Department has assumed responsibility for a range of matters previously under the remit of six other Departments - Agriculture, Food and Rural Development, Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands, Environment and Local Government, Public Enterprise, Social, Community and Family Affairs and Tourism, Sport and Recreation.

While having a wide-ranging mandate, the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs is compact, with a staff of approximately 250. In addition, a number of State agencies and other bodies operate under the aegis of the Department and are charged with specific responsibilities in the community, voluntary, rural, Gaeltacht and islands sectors. These bodies, which include two cross-Border implementation bodies, are Area Development Management Limited; An Coimisiún Logainmneacha; An Foras Teanga, ar a bhfuil Foras na Gaeilge agus Gníomhaireacht na hUltaise; Bord na Leabhar Gaeilge; the Commissioners of Charitable Donations and Bequests; the Urban Accounts Fund Dispersement Board; the National Advisory Committee on Drugs; the National Drugs Strategy team; Údarás na Gaeltachta; Waterways Ireland; and the Western Development Commission.

The Department will act as a mechanism for delivering on and co-ordinating certain targets in An Agreed Programme for Government, including regenerating disadvantaged communities, continuing to tackle drug misuse, the protection and development of rural communities, supporting the Irish language and the development of the Gaeltacht and measures to further develop the islands. Principles to guide and shape the work of the Department are also set out in the programme and include the achievement of balanced regional development, the development of the social and physical infrastructure of rural Ireland and the achievement of real and sustained social progress. In light of the mandate that has been given to the Department, a mission statement that will include the following elements is envisaged: promoting and supporting the sustainable and inclusive development of communities; the term "communities" to encompass both urban and rural, and include Gaeltacht and island communities; helping to foster better regional balance and alleviate disadvantage; and advancing the use of the Irish language.

From an organisational point of view, the most pressing challenge facing the Department is undoubtedly the fact that it is a new entity bringing together, as I mentioned, elements of a number of different Departments under an overall "communities" umbrella. For the assistance of committee members, I have circulated with my speech two diagrams, one setting out the overall framework within which our services are delivered and the other setting out the range of programmes administered directly by the Department. The complexity evident in these diagrams represents a significant challenge for the Department in ensuring efficient and effective service to its customers and clients and in producing better value for money for taxpayers. At the same time, members will agree there can be little doubt that the establishment of the new Department offers tremendous opportunities to achieve greater integration and efficiency across the range of functions coming within its remit, thereby providing better delivery of services to its customers.

As members are aware, the Department is involved in a wide range of activities and service provision. For the purposes of our strategy statement, the Department's work can be grouped into four main areas, with goals identified in each area. These include, first, community and local development. The goal here is to encourage and facilitate communities, with a special focus on areas of disadvantage, to pursue social and economic progress in their areas. The second area is tackling drug misuse, the goal of which is to facilitate a more integrated and co-ordinated response by State agencies to tackle drug misuse with the aim of significantly reducing the harm caused to individuals and society. The third area is rural, Gaeltacht and islands development. The goal here is to promote and maintain living and working populations in rural and Gaeltacht areas and on the islands, by helping to foster sustainable and culturally vibrant communities in these areas. The fourth area is the maintenance and promotion of the Irish language. The goal is to increase the use of the Irish language countrywide and to support the maintenance of the language in Gaeltacht areas.

With regard to rural, Gaeltacht and islands development, our goal, as I mentioned, will be to promote and maintain living and working populations in rural and Gaeltacht areas and on the islands by helping to foster sustainable and culturally vibrant communities in these areas. Our key strategies will relate to implementing various measures designed to improve the economic, social and physical conditions in rural and Gaeltacht areas and on the islands, co-ordinating the implementation of actions for the development of rural communities and promoting traditional cultures, including the strengthening of the Irish language in the Gaeltacht.

Clearly, the decision by the Government to place the remit for rural development within a new Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs is a reflection of the need to continue to move forward with a plan for the sector that is focused on the communities that live in rural areas. While the 1999 White Paper on rural development sets out a vision and framework for the development of rural communities, a critical challenge is to ensure the White Paper commitments are addressed across a wide range of Government Departments and public bodies. Effective formalised co-ordination systems need to be maintained and strengthened with the appropriate Departments and agencies. Considerable success is already being achieved through, for example, the operation of the CLÁR programme, which is designed to address rural areas of special disadvantage. I was pleased to announce last month that these areas have been revised having regard to the preliminary results of the 2002 population census, as promised in An Agreed Programme for Government.

With regard to the Gaeltacht, it is clear that in order to attract modern service-based industries there and sustain Gaeltacht populations, critical structural deficiencies need to be addressed. The Department's ongoing work, particularly with regard to the development of strategic Gaeltacht infrastructure, will continue to be important, as will the vital role of Údarás na Gaeltachta in creating sustainable employment in the changing Gaeltacht environment, particularly in the context of the Irish language being a major resource for creating high quality employment.

Promoting the sustainable development of the populated offshore islands is also a key task of the Department. While much has been achieved in recent years, further improvements in access, services and infrastructural supports are necessary in order to maintain and enhance islanders' living standards.

With regard to the Irish language, our goal, as already outlined, will be to increase the use of the Irish language countrywide and to support the maintenance of the language in Gaeltacht areas. Our key strategies will relate to ensuring better provision of public services through Irish, strengthening Irish as the principal community language in the Gaeltacht, supporting Foras na Gaeilge in its task of increasing the use of the Irish language in everyday life throughout the island of Ireland and providing definitive Irish forms of the placenames of Ireland for official and public use.

A number of critical issues face the Department in the period 2003-05 in regard to the promotion of the Irish language, both within the Gaeltacht and outside it. As regards the provision of public services through Irish, the Official Languages (Equality) Bill 2002 has particular relevance. Its enactment, which I hope will be secured later this year, will require working with Government Departments and other public bodies to put in place agreed new schemes and structures regarding service provision through Irish and establishing an operating structure for the Official Languages Commissioner.

Other critical issues will include rolling out a series of practical costed measures - based on an examination by the coiste comhairleach of the recommendations of the report of the Commission on the Irish Language in the Gaeltacht - to strengthen Irish as the principal community language in the Gaeltacht, language planning, followed by the implementation of a focused action plan and the provision of Irish medium education at all levels.

Mar a dúirt mé ag an tús, tá i gceist ag an Aire Stáit labhairt libh maidir le cúraimí eile atá ar an Roinn. Mar is eol don choiste, sé atá i gceann de na príobhchuspóirí na Roinne ná go mbaintear amach gníomhach níos comhordaithe ag an Stát do phobal ar fud na tíre. De réir an chúspóra sin, féachfaidh mo Roinn chuige strucktúir, próiséis agus scéimeanna chun tacaíochta níos éifeachtúla a bhaint amach don phobal a chur in áit. Tá mé ag tiomáint leis an tionchar in oifigí phobail a dhaingniú i gcás go dtagann caiteachas ansin faoi chlár faoi chúram mo Roinne. Beidh sin ina phrionsabal threorach ar fud an phróiseis athbhreithnithe. Tá mé ag tabhairt caibidlí conclúide le roinnt Airí a bhfuil páirt acu i gcláracha comhchosúla . Tá súil agam go mbeidh mé in ann tús a chur le próiseas comhairleacháin go gairid le páirtithe leasmhara eile lena n-áirítear na comhpháirtithe soisialta agus sular riarfar clár dá léitheid.

Gabhaim buíochas leis an choiste as an deis seo a thabhairt dom labhairt inniu. Beidh mé sásta ceisteanna a fhreagairt ar ball.

Chairman

I welcome the Minister of State, who has a difficult brief.

Minister of State at the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs (Mr. N. Ahern)

I am pleased to have an opportunity to outline my responsibilities within the Department. As the Minister said, I would like to focus on two sectors, community development and tackling drug misuse.

Our goal in regard to community development is to encourage and facilitate local communities, with a special focus on areas of disadvantage, to pursue social and economic progress in their areas. Our key strategies will relate to achieving greater coherence across the range of structures, processes and schemes, supporting local and community development, assisting disadvantaged communities to participate fully in society, facilitating integrated development in areas of disadvantage and establishing a cohesive framework of support for the community and voluntary sector across Government Departments and agencies, implementing the dormant accounts disbursement and linked arrangements and ensuring an appropriate administrative framework to encourage and expand corporate and social responsibilities.

Although very rapid economic and social development has taken place in Ireland in recent years, there remains pockets of social deprivation which have not benefited relative to the prosperity of the rest of society. What we are seeking to do, therefore, is to engage and harness the energies of local communities in order to achieve sustained economic and social development. Overall, our aim will continue to be to support local self-help and community development initiatives through a range of once-off grant schemes and long-term funding programmes, aimed at helping people develop the capacity to participate as partners alongside statutory agencies and other relevant players. A number of other measures will further contribute to support this sector. These will include the implementation of the recommendations in the White Paper on a framework for supporting voluntary activity and developing the relationship between the State and the community and voluntary sector, and introducing legislation to ensure an appropriate regulatory framework for the charity sector.

Another important factor will be the disbursement of money from the dormant accounts fund. Members will be aware that dormant accounts legislation was introduced last year. It provides for a scheme to disburse money on programmes or projects to assist those who are socially, economically or educationally disadvantaged. It also provides money for the disabled. The Dormant Accounts Disbursement Board, an independent board under the aegis of my Department, was established last year to oversee the disbursement of these funds. I understand it is currently preparing a disbursement plan which will outline the objectives and strategies for achieving its goal. It is expected the plan will be published towards the end of April.

Our goal is to facilitate a more integrated and co-ordinated response by State agencies to tackling drug misuse with the aim of significantly reducing the harm caused to individuals and society. In this regard, our key objective will relate to co-ordinating an overall strategy to tackle drug misuse and targeting the provision of services and facilities in areas of high drug misuse. The problem of drug misuse in Ireland, as in many other countries, remains a major challenge. Tackling this complex issue requires a multi-dimensional approach and an integrated series of short, medium and longer term actions. These are at the heart of the National Drugs Strategy 2001-2008 launched about two years ago, the overall aim of which is to significantly reduce the harm caused to individuals and society through a concerted focus on the four main pillars of supply reduction, prevention, treatment and research. The strategic aims are to reduce the availability of illicit drugs, promote throughout society a greater awareness, understanding and clarity of the dangers of drug misuse, enable people with drug problems to access treatment and other supports so as to re-integrate into society and have valid, timely and comparable data on the extent and nature of drug misuse in Ireland. The strategy brings together into a single framework all the elements of drugs policy with responsibilities clearly assigned to the different Departments and agencies. It contains 100 separate actions across the four pillars previously mentioned. These actions are carried out by the relevant Departments - Health and Children, Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Education and Science - and various agencies such as the Garda Síochána, the health boards, the prison service etc. The strategy will run over a seven year period. Objective and key performance indicators set under the four pillars are regularly measured and reported on.

The Department has overall responsibility for co-ordinating the implementation of the strategy and reporting on its progress to the Cabinet Committee on Social Inclusion on a six monthly basis. A review of the strategy will be carried out at the end of 2004 to determine its overall effectiveness in achieving the strategic goals laid down. The Department also has overall responsibility for overseeing the work of the 14 local drugs task forces and the proposed regional drug task forces to be established this year. The day-to-day work of the task forces is overseen by the national drugs strategy team on which the Department is represented.

One of the primary objectives of the strategy is to maximise the impact, coherence and effectiveness of the programmes for which we are responsible. A first step towards achieving this objective, a review of the programmes and activities which fall within the remit of the Department, will be undertaken. Consultation with the relevant parties will take place and all views will be considered in the context of this review. We have a very open mind on the matter of rationalisation of structures and are happy to await the outcome of the review. The overriding concern is to ensure that expenditure on these programmes provides the most effective, positive impacts for the communities involved. The key objective is to look after the people in these communities.

Chairman

Ar dtús, déanaim comhgairdeas leat, a Aire Stáit, as an togra, CLÁR. Tá cupla ceist agam duit ar an ábhar céanna. Most areas are happy with CLÁR. It is one of the best initiatives I have come across because it crosses so many Departments. Many of the problems we as politicians encounter on a daily basis relate to policy. We could solve many issues if they were dealt with in this way. How do we deal with other areas which do not come under the CLÁR programme? Will the Minister expand this programme or introduce another one? Is he waiting to see how CLÁR works before pursuing other programmes? Many groups are involved in rural development and cursaí Gaelige agus Gaeltachta. Are we getting value for money? Can we see the results of the work? How far down the road are we in terms of reviewing or assessing how these programmes are currently operating? Whether the Irish language is dead and gone is a question which we, as a committee, will examine under the auspices of a rapporteur study. Perhaps the Minister might give us his thoughts in this regard.

This committee has examined the issue of alcohol. Does the Minister see it coming within the remit of his community programme in the lifetime of his ministry given it currently comes under the Department of Health and Children? Most of the community believe alcohol is as big a drug as any other. Is the drugs strategy based on best practice in a particular country? Is there a country which is dealing successfully with the drugs issue?

Deputy O’Dowd

Ba mhaith liom ceisteanna faoi leith a chur ar an Aire, an Teachta Ó Cuív, mar gheall ar an nGaeltacht agus ceisteanna eile a chur ar an Aire Stáit, an Teachta Noel Ahern, maidir le fadhb na ndrugaí Ba mhaith liom na ceisteanna ar an dá ábhar a scaradh óna chéile. I would like to concentrate on asking the Minister, Deputy Ó Cuív, some questions regarding Gaeltacht affairs and to ask the Minister of State, Deputy Noel Ahern, some questions regarding the drugs issue. My questions will be quite detailed in the context of their reply. Perhaps, if it is in order, we could hear from the Minister first and then hear from Minister of State on the drugs issue.

Chairman

I would prefer to take the two together, otherwise the meeting could drag on for an inordinate time.

Deputy O’Dowd

I hope to have enough time to ask my questions.

Chairman

We will come back to you again if need be.

Deputy O’Dowd

How long do I have to deal with each section?

Chairman

Ten minutes overall.

Deputy O’Dowd

Má fhéacann duine ar bith ar The Irish Times don lae inniu feicfidh sé go bhfuil Foras na Gaeilge chun deontais airgid do na heagrais deonacha gaelacha a ghearradh siar. Níl na heagrais gaelacha sásta leis seo ar chor ar bith. Bhí mé ag caint le Foras na Gaeilge inniu agus dúradh liom go bhfuil an-díomá ar an bfhoras mar gheall ar na gearrtha seo.

I appreciate we do not have translation facilities here but as Irish is almost my first language I am happy to begin in Irish. The reality is, according to today's The Irish Times, that Foras na Gaeilge is concerned about the cutbacks introduced by the Minister's Department. What impact will this have on Irish language bodies such as Conradh na Gaeilge, Comhdháil Náisiúnta na Gaeilge, CLÁR and other wonderful, hardworking, committed community organisations which now face a 10% cut in their budgets for the coming year? This is a matter of deep concern to them. Could we invite some of those bodies in for a further meeting, particularly Foras na Gaeilge, to discuss the impact this cutback will have on their organisations and on the service plan mentioned by the Minister?

I have another question concerning Údarás na Gaeltachta. Aontaim go mór leis an Aire ó thaobh na Gaeilge de. Molaim an obair atá déanta aige go pearsanta ach ó thaobh an Údaráis tá ciorraithe an-mhór ann i mbliana. There is a 22% cutback in the budget for Údarás na Gaeltachta this year. The Údarás plays a significant role in the economic life of the Gaeltacht but is it not a fact that it will not put any new projects before its board for the next few months because it has no money to fund them? In the context of the service plan the Minister has announced to us, how can Údarás na Gaeltachta possibly manage to create the employment target of 1,000 jobs for this year in the light of these cuts?

There have also been cutbacks in CLÁR. I agree with the chairman that CLÁR is an important community project. It is specifically aimed at and geared towards areas of significant depopulation. The Minister has increased the number of people who can benefit from CLÁR from approximately 285,000 to about 360,000 people but he has cut their budget from €12.5 million to approximately €9 million. How can he argue that the expansion of the CLÁR programme combined with the reduction in funding is something for which he should be praised? Effectively, he is giving less money to more people. While I welcome the work he has done in regard to CLÁR it is such an important project that this cutback is unacceptable.

Will the Minister explain the cuts of 16% in the community and voluntary sector which is funded by the national lottery? My next question should, perhaps, be addressed to the Minister of State but I will include it here. The budget of €4 million for the student summer jobs scheme has been abolished and no students will be employed on that scheme. The scheme was introduced in 1993 and the number of students looking for those jobs has decreased. The majority of students in the scheme came from the western seaboard, from counties Donegal, Mayo, Galway, Cork and Kerry. How does the abolition of this scheme fit in with the Minister's ideal of developing the western seaboard and of sustaining communities there? This will affect voluntary communities in particular many of which will not be in a position to employ students this year. This student summer work had a particular community and tourism aspect.

I would like to ask the Minister of State at the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, Deputy Noel Ahern, about his drugs programme. Documents from his Department indicate that the Cabinet Sub-Committee on Social Inclusion and Drugs has allocated funding to the local drugs task forces of €16 million for this year. That equals the total budget he has in his Department for dealing with the drugs issue. In fact, his Department suggests that upwards of 45% of the local community drug projects in Dublin will face cutbacks this year because he has not allocated enough money to them. This is serious particularly since there is an increasing use of cocaine in the city. What has the Minister of State to say on that? Are regional drugs task forces going to be set up this year or is there money available for them? What about the issue of research into the drugs area? How will the Minister of State manage the budget for his Department with such inadequate funding?

Deputy O’Shea

Strategy statements are aspirational by nature. One would not, therefore, have a problem with much of what is contained in the statements of the Minister and Minister of State. The implementation of the strategies is what is important.

I notice in the Minister's statement that there is no bottom line policy statement on the Irish language. Is it the objective of his Department that we aspire to a bilingual society or has the Minister retreated from that concept and is he now looking for something else? The traditional methods of providing income in the Gaeltacht areas have been farming and fishing, both of which areas are in decline. Yesterday we heard that Teagasc is having problems attracting young people from farming backgrounds to its courses and may have to draw candidates from the cities.

We all accept there is a decline in the use of Irish in the Gaeltacht areas. The real issue is that the population as a whole must ask whether it wants to or why it wants to revive the language. If that debate takes place there is some chance that the community at large, in the Gaeltacht and the Galltacht, will adopt an ownership attitude towards the language. It is heartening that a number of colleagues in Leinster House are pursuing the Irish language classes that have been provided. Many people who say that the language should be revived do not follow through and do something about it. We must move the debate forward and encourage an ownership attitude towards the language. Then we may have positive and individual contributions to the language.

A great deal of money is spent on the Irish language where in many cases the aims and objectives of what we seek to achieve are not clear. It is important that we find out how much is being spent on the language, that we examine the areas it is being applied to and that we find out if the objectives are being achieved. In my view the Department should have more control over the situation if an effective and focused approach is to be put in place.

The drugs issue is huge but the issue of alcohol is even larger and it causes more problems. An area that needs to be addressed is the association between success at sport and alcohol. There is a mindset in the community that if a team wins a match or a county championship etc. it should go to the pub to celebrate. It does not have to be that way and we need to break down that culture. The alcohol culture also leads to violence and social problems. We talk about community here but any community is made up of family units. We have a large parenting deficit and quite a number of parents cannot control their children from quite a young age. These young children become involved in drinking which in itself can be a gateway to the use of illicit drugs. The point has been made about the prevalence of cocaine, which is relatively new. We hear anecdotal evidence of cocaine being used as a drug of choice by middle-class people at the weekends. The heroin problem is mainly located in Dublin. In Holland heroin is regarded as a drug for losers. A lot of drug taking now is by way of a cocktail of proprietary medicines. We have a heroin problem among young people, which is now becoming a cocaine problem. In terms of dealing with these problems, we can talk in aspirational terms about the co-ordination of various services, but there should an officer in each area with statutory powers to co-ordinate the statutory and voluntary agencies to deal with the problems of dysfunctional young people who are involved in drugs. Unless this is dealt with in a family context we will not make the desired progress. There are constitutional issues in terms of the rights of parents, but where parents are blatantly in dereliction of their duty we need to have an effective means of intervention.

The provision of broadband in Gaeltacht areas is important. Last year there was a break-even between jobs lost and created. Broadband will give a further dimension to Gaeltacht areas in terms of job creation.

Whether we are talking about the Gaeltacht or about the drugs problem in urban areas, one of the features of modern society is that the extended family is not as important as it used to be. Children do not have the same access to grandparents on a regular basis. Changes have taken place because of economic and social development. We need to develop a real focus on the family unit and operate a system of early intervention. As a teacher I can recognise from a very early stage the children who are at risk. We must have an effective and focused approach to these problems.

Chairman

It is impossible to answer briefly on the subjects which have been raised but I will invite the Minister to do so.

Deputy Ó Cuív

The Chair asked about the CLÁR programme and I thank him for what he said about it. My experience in the Gaeltacht and the islands is that the most effective way to get all the agencies to do things fast is to have a matching fund and leverage money. What tended to happen was that peripheral areas were last on every list, whether it was to do with the health board, roads etc. The sheer weight of democracy pulled things towards the centre. What CLÁR seeks to do is pull the money back again so that areas of low population are not told there is no cost benefit. By putting in the matching money, the cost benefit is suddenly changed.

Off the top of my head I think CLÁR covered about 380,000 people in the new regime. There are about 1.5 million people in rural areas so we are talking about one fifth. The Department must examine what other methodologies will be used in the stronger rural areas to overcome the various problems there. One of the roles the Department has to play is silent and not necessarily in the public gaze, namely, an interactive role with all the other Departments to make sure that when decisions are being made that rural concerns are taken into account.

Last week there was criticism of the national roads programme but the most significant statement made by the National Roads Authority was perhaps missed. The authority itself said that the Minister had instructed that the BMW region get special attention. The problem is that roads are planned about three or four years ahead and an instruction given this year will not be translated into work for about two or three years. I have been pushing an open door with the Minister. It will be noticed that national secondary routes have begun to pick up in the last two years and that was because of the interaction between the two Departments.

In relation to value for money being spent on the Irish language through Foras na Gaeilge, in the present budgetary situation every section of my Department has to sit down and look at how spending is focused. I do not think that is altogether a bad thing. If any lesson has been learned in the past five or six years, it is that doubling budgets has not doubled the effect on the ground. If the money is well used and if people make focused and hard decisions I do not necessarily think the service on the ground need suffer. In the context of Foras na Gaeilge, I wish to point out that when I came into the Department in 1997, the allocation to Bord na Gaeilge was about €3.2 million. A few million euro was being spent on Ciste na Gaeilge but there is still money in Ciste na Gaeilge because it has not decreased that much overall. By 2000, that was €7 million, by 2002 it had jumped to €14 million and this year it is back to €12.4 million. Put in context that is 1.75 times the amount in 2000, and more if one goes back to 1997. It is in that context that one has to discuss the allocation for Foras na Gaeilge. As has been pointed out there has been a cut in Údarás and in community development and a general cut in Government budgets this year. Allowing that I have a fixed amount available I think I have spread it across the various functions of the Department in the best way possible, in conjunction with my Minister of State. I suggest to those who say I should give €2 million more to Foras na Gaeilge, that they point out to me from what other heading in my Department I am to take it.

In my daily life and in the daily life of many of the people I meet, the Irish language is anything but dead. There is a lot of Irish spoken around the country - wherever I go I seem to encounter Irish being spoken, whether it is in Waterford or Louth. I must be attracting them like a magnet. I will not repeat the terminology used in Raidió na Gaeltachta in relation to the Waterford hurlers the other day but it was fairly descriptive of the way I seem to attract Irish speakers.

The normal day to day business of a large part of Connemara is done through the Irish language. It is not doing any service to the Irish language to pretend that the language is dead when it is not. I would be the first to put up my hand to say it was dead if there is nobody speaking Irish any more. I find it very offensive to all those young people who speak Irish to say to them that they are speaking a dead language. Their future is all ahead of them and if they are Irish speakers they should be given the recognition that it cannot be dead if they are speaking it, whatever about the likes of me speaking it.

I was in Trinity College last night and the question of the Irish language and the need to learn Irish in school was raised. The positive reaction towards the language and towards it being a requirement in school shows that the young people of this country are not willing to abandon the Irish language.

Chuir an Teachta O'Dowd ceist maidir le Foras na Gaeilge. I think I have answered that question. I want to make it clear that any talk about a €7 million shortfall when the budget was cut back by about €2 million is nonsense. I heard that figure mentioned on a radio interview this morning. Given that our economy is growing at 3% and the world economy is almost static, with countries like Germany, Japan and the United States having virtually zero growth, I will never understand how bodies could grow or be expected to grow at 30% or 40%. Such mathematics is not based on reality.

What is my aim for the Irish language? I would love to see us get to a situation that seems to be fairly common in some continental countries, where the native language, Irish in our case, would be the day-to-day language used among ourselves, but we would all have perfect English and have passable French, German and Spanish. However, we would elect to use Irish among ourselves. I do not belong to the school that believes that English is any disadvantage to a person and there are very few people in the country who belong to such a school. English is vital in the modern world. We are trying to get more people to chose to use the Irish language among themselves as a natural language and have perfect English at the same time. People will decide how far down that road we will get.

I agree with Deputy O'Shea on the question of the Gaeltacht and the change of industries. Some 30 years ago I faced the fact that farming would not sustain the people in the area in which I live. We started finding all sorts of ingenious ways of providing alternative employment. It is in the context of companies like Nemeton in the Deputy's constituency, that we have the new Gaeltacht. I have repeatedly said that Údarás na Gaeltachta should put much more of its resources into Irish language based industry.

This brings me to the question of a budget for Údarás, which gets its money and makes its call. Because I was able to look at its budget over a two-year period, I was able to give Údarás about €3.4 million that it had not expected. It had €2 million it could not spend in grants because there was not the demand and I allowed it to transfer that money to both the capital programme and current expenditure which gave it a benefit of €5 million. I took that into account when preparing this year's budgets. It was able to bring forward into last year, work it would have had to hold over to this year.

The way Údarás has been spending money, particularly on its buildings programme, has not been the most efficient. It has not used its asset base to best advantage and Údarás itself recognises savings can be made there. Its decision not to allow projects go forward into the first two months of this year does not relate to a shortage of money because it will get €25 million this year. However Údarás had to carry out a check based on the fact that it was given such an instruction in writing and State bodies should follow written instructions and not ignore them in a cavalier fashion. At the end of the year Údarás should not carry forward either on grants or on buildings more than 65% of the allocation of that year. I understand it is now coming in line with this as it always should have but did not. Anyone who thinks it is wrong that I insist on proper procedures being followed would be encouraging very slovenly work.

I was asked about CLÁR and the loaves and fishes. We spent €40 million last year, but because of the outturn at the end of the year and because the uptake on some programmes was slower than intended, CLÁR fully funded some of the programmes towards the end of the year. I stand to be corrected, but I believe our total expenditure was about €7 million on class 3 roads. Normally CLÁR's funding happens in a 1:2 ratio. An amount of €3 million would attract another €6 million from other Departments which would give me a €9 million spend. This year I can get more expenditure from slightly less money by playing my cards right and insisting that the other Departments match all my programmes.

Deputy O’Dowd

The Minister is a magician.

Deputy Ó Cuív

I spent 20 years of my life working for a co-operative which had no money.

Deputy O’Dowd

Now the Minister is in a Government with no money.

Deputy Ó Cuív

On many occasions I approached various Ministers for the Gaeltacht from different parties. Former Minister, Mr. O'Toole, was very helpful. I learnt how to squeeze huge value out of money. It seems to be out of fashion in this country now, but I am of the old-fashioned school that believes in looking after every shilling. By the end of the year I hope I will be able to point to what is done, measured on the actual delivery and not on the money spent.

CLÁR takes up a staff of four with a zero overhead basis. It is funded from the administrative money at the Department and does not have any significant effect on that. There was no money spent on analysing or drawing up plans stating the obvious. People in rural areas are saying they do not have a decent water supply and have no prospect of getting one. They are saying they do not have a road to the house. They are talking about the shortage of broadband, which has been mentioned here. I have been told of the problem of trying to get a small day care centre going. It was not going to take a great expert to work out what was needed on the ground based on the kind of money I had. The great value of CLÁR has been that whatever we had has gone right in on the ground through the existing agencies. If county councils do roads, they get to deliver on that. If health boards do health centres, they get to deliver on that. We did not duplicate any money. Put in other terms, it is the near perfect machine for delivery because there are no line losses of money on the way to delivery.

I was asked how much is spent on the Irish language. I believe very little is spent on the language. My question would be how much is spent on the English language - a huge amount of money. People might say we just talk English. There is a tendency in this State to consider expenditure on something like TG4 as expenditure on the Irish language of, let us say, €20 million. RTÉ is considerably more than 90% English speaking and it gets about €200 million in licence fees. Nobody says that is expenditure on the English language. It is impossible to put a value on what is spent on the Irish language. It is a totally academic exercise and if we want to put any figure on it, the only amounts that are purely language orientated are about €1 million from Údarás na Gaeltachta, the amount of money we spend on schemes like scéim na bhfoghlaimeoirí Gaeilge, scéim labhairt na Gaeilge and the money that goes to an Foras Teanga. The rest goes to services on which the money would have to be spent even if the Irish language were abolished.

Somebody once said a phenomenal amount of money is being spent on teaching Irish in the primary schools. If we abolish Irish in primary schools, will the Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Noel Dempsey, have teachers looking for a 20% salary cut for no longer having to teach Irish? If they do not do so, then there is no real cost to teaching Irish in the school.

Chairman

May I cut through you there to ask the Minister of State, Deputy Noel Ahern, to make some comments? We can then come back to the Minister later.

Deputy O’Dowd

Will we have an opportunity to respond?

Chairman

Yes, you will, after our next stint. Some people have been here for a considerable amount of time.

Deputy O’Dowd

That is fine.

Mr. N. Ahern

Deputy O'Dowd had a question about the summer jobs scheme. That scheme started about nine or ten years ago at a time of huge unemployment. However interest in it has waned hugely and even in the past five years the numbers have gone down from about 13,500 to about 4,600 last year. There was never a huge uptake on it in the Dublin area, but even in places such as Donegal and Mayo, the uptake has dropped by about 50% in the past four or five years. In places such as Donegal and Mayo, the uptake has dropped by about 50% in the past four or five years. It was different when students could not get summer jobs. With a much improved economy in recent years, the development of tourism projects and so on, it has not been difficult to get summer jobs, even in the areas in the west to which members referred. That is reflected in the huge, steady decline in the uptake figures for the scheme. That scheme has now gone and the Government wishes to target disadvantage in other ways, mainly through the Department of Education and Science in trying to give access to third level education to the maximum number of people from disadvantaged areas.

On the question on drugs-related funding, that sub-heading is up 16% this year. Very few, if any, sub-heads in this or any other Department have increased to that extent this year. That reflects the Government's commitment to this issue as a high priority. We could have used more funding if it had been available and it is a developing area which we will have to watch. The uptake on many of the plans approved for task forces has been rather slow to develop, as I know from direct past experience on one of them. The fact that plans adding up to €X million have been approved does not necessarily mean the demand will materialise for all of that funding this year. Undoubtedly, this is an area where considerably greater expenditure could by applied. Expenditure in the Department, which currently totals approximately €250 million, will be watched closely and there are likely to be savings in some areas during the year. The drugs area will be a priority within the Department. In addition, the Dormant Accounts Board will announce its disbursement plans in April or May. The headings for allocation of such funds would include areas within my responsibility and we will make a pitch in that regard, particularly for capital projects in relation to drugs facilities and recreational facilities for "at risk" people. I agree we could do with more money but I am sure we will get by.

The regional drugs task forces are expected to have their first meetings by the end of March or early April. That will not involve really substantial funding this year. On the basis of parallel experience in the Dublin area, they will initially carry out an audit of the situation in their areas to identify any gaps in services and so on. Their funding requirements in the first year will be mainly for administrative purposes. While some other costs may arise, that would be mainly for consideration for next year and they will not have very detailed plans for 2003. I am quite satisfied there will not be any difficulty in that regard.

Deputy O'Shea referred to cocaine and I agree it is a growing problem. Much of our drugs strategy has related to heroin, which causes huge problems for communities and society generally. Cocaine was looked on as a "designer drug" in middle class or professional circles where, if people develop a problem, it does not reflect itself on society to the same extent. However, much more of it is now coming into the country. Garda reports show a considerable increase in seizures and it can be assumed that, no matter how successful are the efforts of the Garda, consignments are still getting through. Production in Columbia, in particular, has increased hugely and there is more of the drug on the market. More people are "into" this drug than was formerly the case.

The situation differs from that related to heroin in that the effects of cocaine are slower to manifest themselves and there is no substitute for it. The only cure is abstinence from the drug, unlike heroin for which there are substitutes such as methadone. Accordingly, the only services we can provide are in the area of counselling and the experience is that cocaine users are rather slow to approach the agencies. The Northern Area Health Board has set up a cross-professional team in the city clinic dealing with this matter but, to date, not very many people have sought treatment. Cocaine users would represent only about 1% of all those seeking treatment for drug abuse. It is a growing problem, a "slow burner" and undoubtedly it must be kept under review with the national drugs strategy team and the various agencies.

The chairman raised a few questions in relation to alcohol. In the Dublin context, that issue comes under the Department of Health and Children. I agree there are likely to be demands from the community - that is already happening - for the strategies on alcohol and drugs to be linked. However, if one had suggested that five or six years ago in the Dublin context, there would be vigorous opposition on the grounds that it involved diluting the impact of illegal drugs. However, the scene has changed and local task forces in Dublin and Cork are now advocating a combined strategy to deal with alcohol and illegal drugs. That view is even more in evidence in the regional task forces which are now being established. They are saying that alcohol abuse is the biggest problem in their provincial regions and even people in the Dublin area are coming around to the view that the two problems are linked. It is important that the demand for such a link in services should come from the communities concerned because, as I said, if that had been tried in Dublin five years ago, there would have been an uproar against it.

With regard to best practice in the strategy to deal with drug and alcohol abuse, I agree that no one country is an ideal model. The four-pillar strategy draws on some of what is done in each country. The approach differs greatly from one country to another. Some of the more liberal countries favour "injecting rooms" and availability of heroin on prescription. Obviously, we have not followed that route but, in general, the four principles or pillars represent the elements of best practice from other countries.

The rationalisation scheme has not advanced very far yet. We are reaching a phase of consultation. While there may be individual ideas, it is not easy to formulate an overall position. What might appear very suitable for one area might not make sense in another area. We intend to engage with people in area partnerships, Leader groups and community development projects to seek their views on the ground. That process is already in train and, for some months past, we have let it be known that we are working in that direction. I am aware, from informal contacts, that those groups are working on proposals and I have no doubt that, when we invite views in the near future, there will be plenty of submissions, though they may not be all in agreement. In the Dublin context, at least, there is some concern that area partnerships might swamp the community development programmes or drugs task forces. However, the issue is not that simple. In some areas, the community development programmes are very good and the area partnerships are weak - and vice versa in other areas.

There is no single model which represents the best solution. It is a matter of looking at the situation on the ground in each area and trying to get people to co-ordinate their efforts in the best interests of the community. Where people's jobs are concerned or where they are part of a structure which has been built up over several years, there is a certain loyalty to that structure and those involved tend to see that structure as the only approach to catering for the community. We need to get people to see the bigger picture and to realise that our efforts are directed towards serving the community. They will all have a say in the matter and will be asked for their views.

Senator Ó Murchú

Aontaím leis an Aire maidir leis an gcóras aistriúcháin ins an tseomra choiste seo. Bíonn leisce ar dhaoine an Ghaeilge a labhairt nuair nach bhfuil córas aistriúcháin ann. Ós rud é go mbaineann an coiste seo díreach leis an nGaeilge tá sé deacair é sin a thuiscint. D'árdaigh mé féin an cheist seo cupla uair agus ós rud é go bhfuil seomra breá nua againn anois shílfeá go mbeadh dul chun cinn déanta maidir leis an gceist seo.

Tá droch-shampla i gceist freisin. Táimid ag caint faoi dhaoine óga a spreagadh chun an Ghaeilge a labhairt ach cad é an sampla atá le fáil acu anseo? Tá céimeanna ar cúl tógtha anseo le blianta anuas. Na blianta ó shin bhíodh díospóireacht an choiste seo trí Ghaeilge ar fad, beagnach. Anois, tá leithscéal á dhéanamh againn nuair a úsáidimid an Ghaeilge. Aontaím leis an Aire.

It is sad that there is no translation system here in these progressive days because this committee deals with the Irish language. There was a time when the language was the only subject with which this committee had to deal and most debate was in Irish at that time. We are discussing the attempt to encourage young people to speak Irish but what example do they get from us? Many of them would be cynical because the committee has taken such a backward step. I agree with the Minister and am glad that he referred to this in his contribution.

The philosophy and value of the language could be discussed forever but it is rarely explained how a young person can spend 12 to 14 years at school learning Irish and not have the confidence, whatever about the ability, to put three sentences together. The same people will learn French or German for a few months and will have the courage and confidence, no matter how ungrammatical they are, to make an effort. I eavesdropped on a group of young students travelling on a train on their way to the Gaeltacht. They were not speaking Irish or English, but French. They were practising their French on the journey to the Gaeltacht.

We have to pose simple questions because if we do not find the answers to questions such as this, we will have a problem. I was a timire with Conradh na Gaeilge in the 1960s, at a time of an energetic debate about the Irish language. The chairman would be much too young to remember the Language Freedom Movement of that time but it was in newspapers, on radio and on television, and the halls of Ireland were packed when debates were held. I was in the City Hall in Waterford with about 800 people to hear a debate between those in favour of the language and the LFM. That was happening all over the country and one aspect of the debate was bitterness. A terrible hostility developed at that time towards the Irish language and it is interesting that today there has never been as much goodwill for the Irish language. I listened to Pat Kenny's radio show when the commissioner for bilingualism from Canada was visiting. I heard no hostility towards Irish in those debates though it is expected on mainstream radio, if for no other reason than entertainment. However, it was not there. There is absolute goodwill towards the language.

What should we do about that? The Minister spoke in a general sense about enabling communities to do things for themselves. I will look at that in the context of several different communities. With regard to the commercial sector, where is the input that would reflect the 75% of people who are known to support the language? Senator Fergal Quinn may put up a few signs and CIE will put up bilingual signs on trains, which is good. However, by and large there are few measures to which we can point. Why is that? We must engage with the commercial sector. What effort is being made to promote Irish in the context of youth work?

I am not talking about policies but about tapping into the goodwill which exists. The only way in which progress will be made is by asking people whether they are committed to the promotion of the language and what they will do in that regard. It will take a campaign to do that. The only mainstream newspaper that has a column in Irish is The Irish Times. Years ago, all newspapers would contain Irish.

Deputy O’Dowd

Scéala Éireann used to have it too. It was known as The Irish Press.

Senator Ó Murchú

The Deputy knows the point I am making. There is no Irish language in newspapers. When young people leave the classroom, apart from Irish on road signs and a few posters they do not come into an Irish language or bilingual environment. Money will continue to be spent and policies made on Irish but we must address these fundamental questions. People would engage with us if they thought they were wanted in that partnership. However, Members will be back here again in ten years' time having exactly the same discussion unless we can engage with all sections of the community, top to bottom.

It is a good development that a large number of people sought to sign up for Irish classes in Leinster House. That is good news and it should be made known outside the House because it tells people that legislators want to learn Irish and do something about this, despite the fact that they are so busy in the Houses. It would be good if we could spread that news outside the Houses.

The gaelscoileanna are a good example of success. They wanted it and did it, and now there are waiting lists to get into them. They are becoming very fashionable because there is an ethos in the gaelscoileanna, apart from Irish, that people are now seeking. It is similar to the position of public schools in England. When things were getting out of hand, people wanted to sign up with the nuns because it was known that students would get a certain kind of discipline and education. The gaelscoileanna also have that because the parents of students are directly involved with the children - they are on committees, making buns, running events and fundraising. That is an example of what can be achieved.

There was a great deal of cynicism about TG4. It is not all about playing the old games although they are good. However, there is no doubt that TG4 has given an acceptable image to the language, particularly when presentable, upbeat young people are seen backing the language.

Somebody might be asked to take over as the managing director of the Irish language, and be told that a television station, a radio station, a favourable government, funding and an education system were available to work with. If that person were asked whether the language could be made to work with that backing, he or she would agree it could be done if this was a business. However, because the Irish language is in the cultural field, a different approach will be required. We should salute the community bodies and national organisations. There is no doubt that they have kept the flag flying over the years. They have certainly done great work, but I would love if we could leave on a united front today. I have noticed during several debates in the Seanad in recent years that there is very little political acrimony about the matter. Goodwill was shown by Senators, who were in agreement and wanted to do something. If we decided to do something definite this year - to receive a dividend from the investment of time, ideas and money - we could strike a chord with the public. We need to bring everybody in. With the permission of the Chair, perhaps we can invite people from the commercial and broadcasting worlds to attend a meeting of this committee. We could ask them to explain the contribution they will make if we are prepared to give that leadership.

We had the benefit of listening to the advice and policies of the Minister of State, Deputy Noel Ahern, in the Seanad this morning. I genuinely believe that alcohol abuse should be linked to the national drugs strategy. If we spoke of alcohol abuse some years ago, somebody would usually be jocose about it. I have noticed that mainstream newspapers have started to write editorials about alcohol abuse, under age drinking and anti-social behaviour in the last year or so. The "Prime Time" documentary on the subject was filmed on the streets and showed shocking images. It showed that the staff of hospital accident and emergency units are overtaxed. I am sorry to say that the programme showed young females of 17 or 18 years who were absolutely stoned out of their minds. It has to be related to the abuse of other drug substances. I hope the Minister of State will succeed in bringing alcohol into the national drugs strategy.

Deputy J. Breen

Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire agus an Aire Stáit. Tá a lán grá agam don teanga Gaeilge, ach ní féidir liom morán de a labhairt. Tá me ag foghlaim faoi láthair. Tá cupla ceist agam don Aire, an Teachta Ó Cuív. I heard him speaking about sustainable rural communities. He said that the new Department has assumed responsibility for a range of matters, including agriculture, food and rural development, that were previously under the remit of six other Departments. He spoke about regenerating disadvantaged communities. The Minister may know more about the west than I as he is from a rural area, but I know that region pretty well. The planning authorities are stopping people from building single rural houses in rural areas, such as Carrigaholt and Kilbaha in County Clare. People are not allowed to build houses in areas that have been denuded of their populations. How can the Minister reconcile his stated aims with the reality I have outlined?

The Minister of State, Deputy Noel Ahern, was able to reduce the number of people employed in community employment schemes in places where public transport facilities are available. I know people in County Clare were removed from such schemes last October and lost their annual Christmas bonus as a result. Some of them have not worked since then. There is no public transport in places like Carrigaholt in west Clare. I welcome the 16% increase in funding aimed at tackling the drugs problem, which is found in every town and village. The problem will have to be rooted out and stopped. I also welcome the extension of the CLÁR programme into County Clare. The programme provides a valuable community service. Has the money designated by the Minister for Stella Maris Hospital been drawn down under the CLÁR programme?

Senator McHugh

I spoke at length to the Minister, Deputy Ó Cuív, yesterday and I will not revisit the points I made. The Minister of State, Deputy Noel Ahern, is aware that many problems have been associated with community development. There has been bad blood between groups and a hostile form of communication has developed between people in different organisations. It should not be forgotten that some groups have operated effectively and constructively, as the Minister of State mentioned. The issue of community development has to be addressed. We can use Paulo Freire's language of community development - grassroots development, involving people on the ground and bringing money to communities - but we have to ask if anything tangible emerges. How effectively does money given to community groups benefit people on the ground? I compliment the Minister, Deputy Ó Cuív, on the CLÁR programme which has provided some clarity to this area and has meant that people can see a tangible outcome.

The Minister of State, Deputy Noel Ahern, will be looking for feedback as part of his review of the community development sector. I agree that the jobs of those who have made great efforts need to be protected. People are disenchanted due to the fact that they cannot see an outcome from community development. We should be sensitive to the needs of those employed in partnership programmes or in ADM companies. Community, youth and development workers have put a great deal of effort into their jobs, although the results might not be visible. It might be politically advantageous for the Minister of State to come in with a heavy hand and say that the schemes have not worked, but I ask him to be sensitive to the work that has been done by partnership companies and community workers. Proper mechanisms do not exist to help us to see results on the ground. This committee should be involved in the consultation as much as possible. I ask the Minister of State to treat this matter with extreme sensitivity.

Deputy Deenihan

Those involved in Foras na Gaeilge are disappointed by the organisation's reduced funding. They could not believe their allocation when the Estimates were published. At a time when we are trying to forge links North and South, it is a retrograde step to take funding from a body that is doing an effective job. Given that another North-South body, Tourism Ireland, saw a significant increase in its allocation, why was Foras na Gaeilge singled out for a decrease at a time when it was putting its programmes in place? The organisation had proven to be quite effective in rolling out its programmes. There is a belief that Foras na Gaeilge was targeted to a greater extent than organisations operating in other areas. I ask the Minister to take people's disappointment and disillusionment on board. As a North-South body, Foras na Gaeilge should be encouraged and supported in every way possible. I disagree with the Minister with regard to the student summer jobs scheme. Last summer, 480 people applied for the scheme in Kerry most of whom were employed on very important projects. Most tidy towns committees use this source of labour effectively to keep places tidy during the summer. Without the services of people from the student summer jobs scheme, the villages and towns of Kerry will not be as clean. Tourism is a major industry in the county and visitors are horrified when they see litter strewn all over streets in areas which are trying to attract more of them. Many tourist attractions depend on students who can speak French, German, Spanish and other languages since they have no other means of interpreting their product for tourists. Apart from the comments of Deputy O'Dowd, the issue has been kept very quiet. There has been no revolt from Fianna Fáil backbenchers. If the numbers decreased, it was because the means test and guidelines of the scheme were made more restrictive.

The GAA used the scheme very effectively and in north Kerry alone 17 clubs employed students. Students playing at minor and under 21 level for Kerry were employed by clubs last summer which ensured that they could stay around. It is no joke. Next summer they will probably go to America or London. Scuppering the scheme is a retrograde step. It was very effective and had not outlived its usefulness. Next June, when communities realise what has happened, Fianna Fáil backbenchers will begin to get restless.

CLÁR is a fine, focused scheme, but it only has a budget of €9.5 million. It would take four times that to address the devastation in my own constituency which has resulted from the collapse of agriculture. The pittance provided will not have much of an effect. Last year, Deputies and Senators announced water and sewerage schemes and roads to be provided through this programme. This is cynical behaviour. The Department of the Environment and Local Government should be adequately funded to allow county councils to put such schemes in place. Using CLÁR money to this end is not what rural development should be about.

When I was a Minister of State, there was a vibrant craft industry right across the country as well as a vibrant food industry consisting of small producers. Most of the small food enterprises no longer exist. They had expertise and a good product, but they had no marketing money and no way to get their food to the marketplace. The Minister should ask his Leader groups to audit the craft and small food enterprises they supported. He will find that 80% of them have gone out of business because of lack of support. Rural Ireland is taking a major hammering and the CLÁR programme will not make much of a difference.

I was the first to welcome the Minister when he addressed Kerry County Council, which is not something many Ministers have done. I told him that there were parts of north Kerry which experienced serious population decline between 1996 and the last census, yet the Minister is drawing on figures from the turn of the last century. Many areas declined in the 1930s, 1940s and 1950s, but he should be looking at areas that have declined over the last ten to 20 years. If he did that, the last roll out under the Leader programme would have touched many more areas. I asked the Minister if he would examine areas which have suffered recent depopulation and he said he would, but the recent CLÁR programme announcements made no mention of places like Ballylongford.

The CLÁR programme should be revisited in light of discussions with rural Deputies, of whom there are many in the Minister's party. I am prepared to give him my views on the matter or to speak with his officials at any time. More money must be forthcoming in the next Estimate and areas of real rural deprivation and population loss will have to be targeted to a greater extent.

Deputy O’Dowd

I have further questions to put and I wish to respond to the answers the committee received.

Chairman

We would like to be finished by 6.15 p.m.

Deputy O’Dowd

Assuming we do not finish by that time, what happens?

Chairman

Those who wish to stay on to talk to Ministers could do so.

Deputy O’Dowd

Can we arrange a further meeting? These are very serious issues and I would rather not squeeze discussion of them into 15 minutes.

Chairman

We can review that at the next committee meeting. The Deputy should use the time available now as best he can to get his points across.

Deputy O’Dowd

I have used it very well, but the issues are serious and should be explored fully. That is what we should do in a committee of a democratic Parliament. I hope I can do it.

Chairman

We have wasted two minutes discussing it.

Deputy O’Dowd

I have not been given the response I require from the Ministers concerned. I put the questions to them again. Tá plean forbartha ag Foras na Gaeilge. Bhí sé aige le cupla bliain agus bhí a fhios ag an Aire go raibh 60 post le líonadh aige as seo amach. I mbliana, níl sé ag líonadh ach 22 de na postanna sin. Bhí sé ag súil leis an airgead seo. Aontaím go bhfuil ardú an-mhaith déanta ag an Aire don Ghaeltacht agus don Ghaeilge, ach seo ceist phráinneach don fhoras.

Ó thaobh Údarás na Gaeltachta de, tá ganntannas mór airgid ann.

There is a serious shortage of money. Is it a fact that the Údarás is not putting new projects before the board?

Éamon Ó Cuív

I explained that twice already. During Question Time I explained exactly why the Údarás made that decision and I explained it again today. Why is the same question being asked a third time?

Deputy O’Dowd

The fact, as I understand it——

Éamon Ó Cuív

This year it has €25 million to spend as it wants. It gets more than agencies such as SFADCo, Enterprise Ireland, the IDA and so on, in any other part of the country for development. The Údarás gets €3 per head as compared to the €1 per head which other agencies get in the rest of the country. It is my belief that it can do an adequate job with this allocation if it puts its mind to it, and it knows it too.

Deputy O’Dowd

Its allocation for job creation has been reduced. It is not, therefore, in a position to pass the projects that it would like to put forward.

Éamon Ó Cuív

The Deputy's information is incorrect.

Deputy O’Dowd

That is my information from the Údarás.

Éamon Ó Cuív

That information is incorrect.

Deputy O’Dowd

Perhaps we should have Údarás here to clarify the situation. I would like to see it here because it is the source of my information.

Chairman

We will come back to this later.

Éamon Ó Cuív

We are just going around in circles.

Chairman

There are other questions that required confirmation.

Deputy O’Dowd

We are not going around in circles, we are getting at the facts. One cannot sell off assets overnight. The income the Minister may anticipate from the sale of Údarás projects or properties will not happen for a year or more. While he may feel the shortfall will be made up by the sale of those properties, in fact, most of them will not be sold this year and if they are it will be at a knockdown price. That is creating another pressure.

I have a direct question for the Minister of State, Deputy Noel Ahern, in regard to the drugs issue. The Cabinet committee on drugs and social inclusion specifically allocated money to projects in this area but that money was not provided in the budget. There is a shortfall of €7 million in the drugs programme between what the Cabinet sub-committee decided and what the Cabinet, in full, agreed.

Drug dealers are shooting each other on the streets of Dublin, yet there are cutbacks in what is provided to communities to combat the drugs problem on the ground. Some 45% of the local drugs task forces will face cuts this year. While it is true that the allocation has gone up by 16%, the reality behind it is that the drug problem is also increasing. Community groups have told me that funding is inadequate for the work they wish to do. That is the bottom line. The Government has failed to provide adequate funding to fight the drugs problem, particularly in Dublin city.

In regard to the regional drug task forces, I have been informed that the community groups are seeking some €5 million for each region but they are only getting €100,000. This will only cover their travel expenses to and from meetings.

Chairman

I would hate to think anybody was spending €100,000 on travel expenses.

I believe the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Health and Children is to receive a presentation from accident and emergency consultants on 28 March in regard to the effects on their departments of alcohol abuse by young people. It is also seeking representatives of the drinks industry. Its intention is to produce a report on this area. This is a commendable step in an area I wished to pursue when I was a member of that committee. I propose that we make an input into the report either formally or informally.

Many roles were created in community development through CE schemes and job initiatives but when the schemes came to an end there was no guarantee of funding for these jobs. The voluntary groups are not in any better position than they were to employ such people than when Government funding was first provided. The work being done is valuable and it is regrettable that there is no permanent basis for the jobs although local communities are being served.

Éamon Ó Cuív

Árdaíodh ceist an leathan bhanda sa Ghaeltacht. Thosaigh mise ag obair ar an gceist seo nuair a bhí mé i m'Aire Stáit sa Roinn Ealaín, Oidhreachta, Gaeltachta agus Oileán cheana. Réitíodh tuarascáil agus is as sin a tháinig an chaint maidir le cábla a chur ar chósta thiar na hÉireann.

D'fhógair an t-Aire cumarsáide le gairid go bhfuil cábla á chur isteach go Gaoth Dobhair agus chomh maith leis sin, faoi scéim CLÁR, tá cábla á chur isteach ins na heastáit tionsclaíochta sa Chlochán Liath agus i mBéal an Mhuirthead. Tá líne snáithin optice ag dul siar Conamara agus ag teacht amach ar an Teach Dóite agus ar ais go Gaillimh. Tá i gceist leanacht leis seo.

An fhadhb is measa a bhaineann le cúrsaí leathan bhanda a scaipeadh ná go bhfuil tú ag déileáil le comhlachtaí príobháideacha agus caithfidh tú déanamh cinnte go bhfaighidh tú luach ar do chuid airgid. Bhí sé i bhfad níos éasca déileáil le fadhbanna leictreacha ná plé le cúrsaí leathan bhanda.

In regard to statutory funding for the community and voluntary sector, the reality is that all funding, regardless of its source, comes under general Government balance. The difficulty in relation to Government finance largely relates to the requirements of the Stability and Growth Pact under which all Government funding is included. It makes no difference to a Minister whether money comes from the lottery or the Exchequer.

Luaigh an Seanadóir Ó Murchú ceist fhoghlaim na Gaeilge. Ní thuigim féin cén chaoi gur féidir le daoine 12 bhliain a chaitheamh sa scoil gan aon Ghaeilge a fhoghlaim. Is é an amhras atá orm maidir le múineadh na Gaeilge sna scoileanna, cad is fiú e. Árdaíonn seo ceisteanna maidir le dearcadh gasúr, cumas múinteoirí, áiseanna teagaisc agus mar sin de. Chuaigh mé ar scoil lán-Bhéarla i mBaile Átha Cliath. Múineadh muid tré Bhéarla ach d'fhoghlaim mé an Ghaeilge ann. Ní thuigim an fhadhb.

It has puzzled me all my life that children who come to Irish colleges in the Gaeltacht learn more Irish in three weeks than in the previous ten years. I can only conclude that it is a question of atmosphere.

I was interested in what was said about the students speaking French on the way to Irish college. My son studied French at a Euro Languages college and wrote home something along the following lines, "Tá sé thar cinn anseo. Bímid ag caint Gaeilge le chéile agus ní thuigeann siad nach Fraincis atáimid ag labhairt". It would have been a new and interesting twist if he had been sent home for speaking Irish.

I agree that it is necessary for Irish to become part of everyday discourse. A big change has taken place among the people of the Gaeltacht, particularly the young people, who in the past were ashamed to speak Irish when they went to Galway. Currently more Irish is spoken in Galway city than was spoken 30 or 40 years ago.

Last weekend my wife and I were having a meal in a hotel in London when a young woman who had been sitting behind us came over to our table. She said, "Cén chaoi a bhfuil tú, a Éamon?" B'as an gCeathrú Rua di. Ní féidir éalú ón nGaeilge, fiú i Londain, cé go ndeirtear go bhfuil sí marbh. Probably the best thing to have happened the Irish language in terms of image has been TG4. Young capable people are showing Irish as an everyday language. It beats me how anybody could argue that Irish is dead having seen TG4.

Deputy Breen raised a question in regard to planning. My Department, in both its present and previous format, has proven what can be done in relation to planning and the spatial strategy. My Department was consulted in that process and while the strategy was finally published by the Department of the Environment and Local Government, we played a full part. The spatial strategy clearly lays down the policy of the Government for the next 20 years and the planning authorities and An Bord Pleanála must give it due regard. Those with a rural background or working in rural areas, even in areas of urban influence, are entitled to get planning permission in rural areas. A person brought up in Clare, for example, is entitled to get planning permission subject to good planning and design, in the local countryside, even if he or she works in Ennis.

The strategy goes further in the non-agglomerated areas in the BMW. It says planning should be granted to anybody who will live permanently in the countryside outside the areas of urban influence. The only control envisaged will be on holiday homes and I have no difficulty with that. My experience is that holiday homeowners were a big part of the problem in that they objected to anybody building a house nearby.

A group is examining the question of community employment. I recognise the huge work done by community employment schemes. Certain changes are needed but arrangements have been made to give special recognition to RAPID and CLÁR areas to keep the maximum number of people on the schemes. As regards the Stella Maris home, nothing has happened and we are waiting for revised plans. I do not know when I will get this revised proposal. My Department has asked the Department of Health and Children to give a schedule.

The big mistake of the schemes was that they had a uniform pattern and thought the problems of rural areas were the same as those of urban areas. I accept that there is a huge need for capacity building and empowerment in urban areas. I may have been sceptical about this at the beginning but I now feel there is a lack in those communities of self-starts and self organising that does not occur in rural areas. As communities go, most rural areas are well able to organise their own business and the hand holding that goes on is sometimes excessive. I have not yet met a rural community that had not the wherewithal to get someone to do any job it needed. I wonder how churches and football grounds etc. were built if rural communities were so lacking in capacity for the last 50 years.

After the Famine, the Irish went to America with hardly their shirts on their backs but they had the great capacity that rural people had to organise and develop and took over a large part of the political system in America within 50 years. At home, the GAA and Conradh na Gaeilge were established. If the people of rural Ireland have lost this ability 150 years later then we are going backwards at an alarming rate despite all the education we are getting.

We must focus these projects on what the local people tell us, not what an academic tells us the people need. As one who has worked in rural areas, I sometimes felt the ruination of rural development was the over academic bearing it experienced in recent times. I am not anti-academic.

Deputies Deenihan and O'Dowd asked about Foras na Gaeilge The organisation has €15.85 million, which is approximately three to four times that which was spent on the Irish language in 1997. Are we even getting twice the value for that expenditure? I was in the Cultúrlann in Belfast and a well-known gaeilgeoir tapped me on the shoulder and told me I was not far wrong. I would like to spend more money on the Irish language, Údarás na Gaeltachta, CLÁR etc. Every Minister would like to do the same, we would like to implement better infrastructure and double the health budget but if the economy is growing by 3% then expenditure can only grow at a similar level. It is time for groups to accept what they have got and do the job with the money provided. Foras na Gaeilge has got what it is going to get. It has a lot of money and I believe it can do a good job with it. It is about time that it did its job. I was told this morning that people first heard the funding to Foras na Gaeilge was cut when they went to a board meeting this week. Everybody has known about this since November. Instead of worrying about the money I have for Gaeltacht infrastructure I am going to make sure I get good value from county councils. Similarly, the Minister of State, Deputy Noel Ahern, has to worry about less money for the drugs strategy. We are knuckling down to the job.

I do not know how often I have to say this. Údarás na Gaeltachta got money for buildings and grants every other year; last year it received €16 million for grants for industries. Deputy O'Dowd should remember that figure. During the year Údarás came to my Department and said it would only be able to spend €14 million of the moneys allocated as it did not have the projects to spend it on. It asked if €1 million could be transferred to its current spending and €1 million to its buildings programme. The buildings programme has always sought to build for the future and was never for day-to-day use. If I was on the board of Údarás na Gaeltachta I would take the €25 million from the amalgamation of building and grants and lay aside as much money as I needed to allocate grants that will be paid this year. While Údarás can spend as much of the €25 million it wants, based on last year's experience it is highly unlikely that it will spend much more than it did then. Údarás knows this and has admitted as much to me. Allowing €14 million on grants leaves €11 million for buildings.

I have increased the building budget dramatically over that of my predecessor, Deputy Michael D. Higgins. I was told there was a crisis and money was provided. Údarás has some property that is surplus to requirements. I am not asking it to make a quick sale, rather I am asking it to look at this in a constructive way. It did this for one company in County Meath and came up with a very good deal that saved money. I do not see the assets as dead; rather, they should be used in a constructive way. There are some industrialists in the Gaeltacht that would find owning an asset to be a great advantage when seeking to borrow money. Údarás will never do this with an asset. Údarás unit building costs are twice what we paid to communities to build community centres. It is twice the cost per square metre over the cost of using private industry. I suggested to it that it look at a cheaper and better way of building.

I have a lot of experience of this, as I was chairman of a co-op. We wished to build a new headquarters and the manager of the co-op designed a building he said could be built for £200,000. Údarás said it could not be built for less than £300,000, and it took us a year of arguing with them to obtain a 60% grant. We wanted to own the building because we needed an asset for the bank. We said that if it gave us 60%, which was £120,000, we would build it, borrow the balance, borrowing not just £80,000 but £120,000, and have £40,000 because we will have an asset for the bank. We did it that way eventually; Údarás caved in after a long time. A £300,000 building was built at a cost to the Údarás of £120,000, which was just over a third of the cost. It was better for the co-op because we had the asset and it was better for Údarás, because what is the point of having £100 million in assets on its books for the sake of having assets?

It has now followed that logic through. It bought the old sawmills in Cong, near where I live, and for the first time, to my knowledge, it has gone out asking for tenders, on a public private partnership basis, for people to build units on a site owned by Údarás. It has the best of both worlds, because it will continue to have control over the site for industrial purposes, but it has invited people in. It will only be able to pay a 55% grant because of European rules, but it will be able to build those units at a third of the cost of the conventional way of doing so. If it follows that logic through and pays €11 million, it will get €33 million worth of value. When one checks the total Údarás budget, one will find that the gross turnover of the organisation this year will be about €46 million when income from all sources is taken into account. Of course it would love more money - so would I. I do not believe, however, that Údarás na Gaeltachta will be short of money to carry out a full and effective programme. It is up to it to manage it in a way that gives us value for money.

For too long in this State the marks were given for how much money an organisation got out of the State, not how it used it, and how much it turned it into. It reminds me of the parable of the talents. It was getting the talents that was important, not making five talents out of one talent. It is much better now that people go out and multiply their money and use it effectively, rather than simply wondering how much they can get.

Deputy O’Dowd

Is the Minister's budget not down 22%? Has Údarás decided not to put new projects involving job creation before its board for the months of January or February?

Deputy Ó Cuív

No.

Chairman

This should be different to the answer we got the last time. He has been asked about it three times already.

Deputy Ó Cuív

Yes, it is a fact.

Deputy O’Dowd

That is it.

Deputy Ó Cuív

However, it is nothing to do with a shortage of money.

Deputy O’Dowd

But it cannot create the jobs, so it cannot keep the money.

Deputy Ó Cuív

That is not the problem. It has plenty of money to give out at the moment. The problem is that it broke a written guideline in relation to the number of projects it was allowed to sanction.

Deputy O’Dowd

The Minister is saying that it was too successful.

Deputy Ó Cuív

No. I am saying that no Government agency is allowed to sanction, in one year for the following year, more than a certain amount of money. That is an absolute rule.

Deputy O’Dowd

If people are creating jobs, surely we should be telling them to get on with it. We want jobs in the Gaeltacht. The Minister is saying we cannot have them.

Deputy Ó Cuív

According to the Deputy's theory, the Údarás could make a decision tomorrow to build a new factory in every town in the Gaeltacht.

Deputy O’Dowd

I am not talking about building factories - I am talking about actual projects, where people want to create employment. These are ongoing in the Údarás and it wants to go ahead with them.

Deputy Ó Cuív

I do not know why it made that decision, but it was purely a management decision which would keep them back in line with the way it was.

Deputy O’Dowd

In other words, it is a cutback.

Deputy Ó Cuív

It has assured me there is no risk to any jobs.

Chairman

I think we will move on.

Deputy Ó Cuív

This was purely a decision made by the board of the Údarás. If the board wanted to play it another way it could. It is up to it to prioritise how it spends its money. I give it utter freedom.

Deputy O’Dowd

The problem is that it cannot sell off the projects, nor the buildings.

Chairman

We will return to this on a different day and bring Údarás in to speak to the committee.

Deputy O’Dowd

I would be very happy with that.

Chairman

We are going around in circles at this stage. It has been a long session.

Deputy O’Dowd

With respect, Chairman, it is the first session we have had.

Chairman

I do not think this will be the one and only time we will see the Minister.

Deputy O’Dowd

I do not know.

Deputy N. Ahern

Deputy Deenihan spoke about the summer jobs scheme. About 450 people participated in Kerry last year. I am quite happy that there will be work for those people this year. The problem is one shared by community employment schemes, which are not connected directly to our Department, although we are involved in the cross-Department team. The Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment is constantly talking about the number of work permits being given out every year. It might not necessarily apply if one is talking about a disadvantaged area or a small rural village, but I am sure that many a work permit is used in the tourism industry or other industries in Kerry. The problem has been that many of our own business people have been passing by local people and not giving them work. The whole nature of community employment schemes and summer job schemes was to provide an alternative to a job when the jobs were not there. It has evolved over the years and become more community-oriented, but if our local business people thought first about their own and gave jobs locally they would be looking after far more local people.

Deputy O'Dowd mentioned funds and acknowledged that funding for the drugs subhead is up by 16%. I do not know who the Deputy was talking to, but I do not believe it is any group being funded by the local drugs task forces. Issues get approved by the Cabinet sub-committee. The 14 drugs task forces came in with their round 2 plans, which were approved over a number of months, probably 12. They do not start up the day they are approved. There can be quite a delay before the start of various projects. If they had all started on 1 January last, we might have had a problem, but they start their plans as best they can when it suits them. There is no suggestion - it is very wrong to give that impression - that any of the plans will be in financial trouble this year. They will not all start in the one year; there were staggered approval dates and there will be staggered draw-down dates. Also, many of them are operated through agencies such as the health boards, who often do not come back to us looking for funds very quickly. We are not thinking at all of any form of cutback. I am quite happy, with prudent management of what we have and having a call on any other savings within the Department, that all those plans will be looked after this year.

I mentioned the regional drugs task forces earlier. They do not need money this year. They are only having their first meetings in the next month or two. It is not a case of taking €5 million out of the sky. Their first job will be to examine and analyse what they have and what services they need. They may not need any money, but if they do it will be far into the future, certainly not this year. They will be co-ordinating groups trying to pull together and analyse whether there are any gaps or any projects that need to be serviced. If I may make a comparison with Dublin, when the local drugs task forces were introduced, it was a year before any of them produced plans. They need time to get up and running and for working relationships to start.

Deputy O’Dowd

The Government sub-committee on drugs offered X amount of money. The Government then, as a body, decided to leave the drugs programme €7 million short. That is the issue. This money has already been agreed by the Cabinet committee on social inclusion and drugs and Deputy Ahern's Department was left with that shortfall. It is for current expenditure, not for the future.

Deputy N. Ahern

It does not work like that. The Cabinet sub-committee approves projects, which the local drugs task forces start whenever they can. I was on a drugs task force and I know some of them did not start for 18 months or two years. It was nothing to do with the Departments. The task forces can be very slow to get off the ground. If they had all started on 1 January there might have been problems but they did not. Some will not start this year because the local drugs task forces will not be a position to start them, although they have approval. There would not have been a contract for them at the beginning of the year. We will get by with savings and all of necessary resources will be put in place.

Deputy J. Breen

I welcome the Minister's comments about housing in rural areas. He has clarified the position and local authorities and planners should follow his advice.

Chairman

I would like to draw the meeting to a close. There are many issues related to drugs, rural development, job creation and infrastructure and we will not be able to solve them all today. We should examine any problems with expenditure in the middle of the year. It would be a good time to come back to this to see the status of the issue.

Deputy O’Dowd

We need to invite more people to appear before the committee to discuss the issues.

Chairman

I thank the Minister and Minister of State for coming. This has been an important and worthwhile meeting.

We had a meeting on the appointment of rapporteurs. The joint study on sport and the arts and their influence in preventing alcohol abuse will be carried out by Deputies O'Malley and English. Deputy Deenihan will address the issue of women in sport. Deputy Wall will address the Irish language. Senator O'Toole will deal with the issue of amateurism versus professionalism in sport. The role of the youth club in the community will be addressed by Deputy Breen. Our allocation for rapporteurs will be €12,000 so, subject to availability, there will be €2,000 for each study. That work can now start.

The joint committee adjourned at 6.35 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 20 February 2003.