JOINT COMMITTEE ON ARTS, SPORT, TOURISM, COMMUNITY, RURAL AND GAELTACHT AFFAIRS debate -
Wednesday, 29 Sep 2004

Arts Funding: Presentation.

Chairman

As discussed at our last meeting, we have arranged meetings for the following dates: the Irish Sports Council will appear before the joint committee on the morning of Wednesday, 6 October; the Olympic Council of Ireland will appear before us on the morning of the following Wednesday, 13 October, to be followed by the Arts Council in the afternoon, while the GAA will appear before us on 27 October. I am conscious also of facilitating Senator Ó Murchú in finding a slot for a discussion on the Irish Language Act. It is important that those engaged in the review of the national drugs strategy also appear before the committee before Christmas while time must be also allowed for the athletes from the Athens 2004 Olympic Games to appear before us.

Today Theatre Forum is responding to the request by members on the economic argument for giving more money to the arts. I welcome Ms Tania Bannotti, whom we have met before, and Mr. Frank Kelly. Some might think it strange to have a meeting on a day of high drama in the Oireachtas.

Deputy Deenihan

Theatre Forum could be addressing the next Minister for Arts, Sports and Tourism.

Chairman

If it is addressing me as a Minister, it is in real bother. At our previous meeting with it, a number of questions were raised on the economic benefit of funding the arts. In recent months the focus seems to have shifted to the role of the arts in education and the arts being more central to people's lives. The Abbey Theatre undertook a project on the arts in education. It is difficult to put a figure on the economic value of the arts. We left that challenge to Ms Bannotti on the last occasion and the purpose of this meeting is to let her give us more information on it.

Ms Tania Bannotti

I thank the Chairman for giving me the opportunity to address the joint committee for a second time which I know is unusual but we really appreciate the opportunity. I will detail for the committee some of the highlights of the report which Mr. Frank Kelly will put in context. When we were here last year, the committee asked for facts and figures. It was of the view that it needed the details in pounds, shillings and pence to enable it to argue for more funding for theatre and the arts generally. We are here to provide those details and to place the matter in context.

This has been a good year for the arts. Often I get the impression when we attend committee meetings that people believe we are always complaining that our circumstances have not been good. In fact, they are better than before. There have been many one-off events. There was the Irish festival in China, the Abbey Theatre centenary celebration, the Re-Joyce Festival and the EU Day of Welcomes on 1 May. In all of these events the Government asked the arts community to respond as it wanted to portray a certain image of Ireland to the accession countries in the case of the EU Day of Welcomes and to a country with which it wanted to open up trade links in the case of the Irish festival in China. It came to us and said it believed culture should come first and asked if we could respond which we were very happy to do.

To put it crudely, those one-off events have meant there has been a good deal of extra money floating around the system this year which is fantastic but next year we will be back to bread and water rations. It is important, therefore, to paint a basic picture of the sector which has been missing for some time. The report, the executive summary of which the committee has before it, will be back from the printers on Friday. I will send a copy to every member next week but the executive summary contains the key findings. It is the first report of its kind in ten years and gives a snapshot of the numbers working in and enjoying the arts and the like.

I have created a Powerpoint presentation. Theatre Forum has about 230 members which include all of the theatres and arts centres the length and breadth of the country. Many more arts centres have been built in recent years. Obviously, every county wants to have its own arts centre. We have, therefore, seen an explosion in the number of theatres and arts venues built around the country. All of the working companies are members. Last year the artistic director of Druid, Ms Garry Hynes, was involved. Companies such as Druid and Rough Magic are also members.

We are involved in all of the arts festivals such as the Dublin Theatre Festival taking place at present. I heard this morning that more than half a million tickets had been sold and that more than 25,000 people would go to see shows over a period of one week. We are also involved in the Fringe Festival, the Wexford Opera Festival, the Galway Arts Festival and the Kilkenny Arts Festival. If one names an arts festival, one will find it is a member of the association. They have all come together to make the case to the committee on an ongoing basis.

The report, the first of its kind in recent years, should provide the credible baseline information the committee needs to make the case for enhanced Exchequer support. In terms of audience share — where we must first look in seeking value for money — are people really going to theatre or is this an élitist activity reserved for the few? We were delighted to find when we surveyed all the different theatres that a record three million tickets had been sold or issued free last year. About 8% were issued free for festivals, outdoor events, talks, post-show discussions and the like.

At an average price of around €19, ticket prices are much lower in Ireland than in neighbouring countries. It is the public subsidy that helps to keep tickets affordable and accessible but as one can see, the public has responded in kind.

Professional theatre-drama is the biggest crowd-puller but there are also some amateur drama groups which have performed in venues in that category. Next comes dance and music of different kinds. Other events which make up about 19% of the total include anything from street performances to discussions and workshops. There is a significant number involved in some form of arts activity the length and breadth of the country.

To give the committee a sense of scale of the sector, we had income of about €82 million last year when it asked how much we were doing for ourselves and how much we were asking it to assist us with. More than half of the income — 52% — is generated by the arts organisations through ticket and programme sales, activities at the bar and the private sponsorship of events. Some 40% is generated through the box office while State funding or the public purse accounts for 38% or €33 million last year, half of which is returned to the State in the form of taxation.

As the committee will be aware, last year was a difficult one as there was a drop in Arts Council funding. That is why my presentation includes a graph showing the picture around the country where local authorities have stepped up to the mark. While the graph shows the fall in Arts Council funding, it also shows that we bumped up other sources of earned income. Local authorities which support festivals and arts activities recognised the difficulty that the fall in funding at national level had caused and provided stop-gap funding for us in order that companies would not have to shut down. As one can see, the Arts Council is still overwhelmingly the biggest source of funding. It is vital to the survival of theatres up and down the country. The local authorities account for about 14% of the total. In addition, there are many FÁS-community employment workers and volunteers in theatres and arts centres. While the overwhelming support is provided at national level, the local authorities and FÁS are also making a significant contribution.

One of the slides in the presentation is complicated but one only needs to look at the last two columns. It bears repeating that we often think of this as a country that supports the arts and culture in a significant way and that we take pride in our writers and performers but the reality is different. I want to show the committee the evidence by looking at our nearest neighbours, Northern Ireland and Scotland, and other EU countries for which I have figures. One can see that Ireland has the lowest figure for per capita funding. It also has the lowest figure for funding as a percentage of GDP. While there is chronic underfunding of many public services, it is also true to say we do not give as much as we like to think we give, in comparison with our European neighbours or even Northern Ireland and Scotland.

There are about 5,000 people working in theatre. This figure does not include all those who volunteer as ushers and the sellers of programmes and tickets during peak periods, mostly part-time. There are about 2,700 full-time equivalent jobs.

In the complete report which I will send to the committee next week we look at the way in which a theatre or arts centre impacts on the local community and the amount spent in terms of actors staying in bed and breakfast accommodation, the buying of advertising and the giving of catering contracts for the pub or restaurant run in the theatre or arts centre. There is a considerable trickle down effect because the money coming in is usually spent on human resources in making shows.

Last year one member of the committee bluntly asked what we wanted. We cannot finish without setting out our wish list for the forthcoming budget. As I stated, we need to raise the level of Arts Council funding significantly. In the programme for Government and the funding strategy for the Arts Council the Government committed to providing a sum of €70 million next year but we are nowhere near that level. Unless there is political support from the members of the committee, the figure will not rise from its current level of €52 million to anywhere near the higher amount.

Senator Ó Murchú will see the coverage of the traditional arts in the newspapers today. While we do not have significant experience in that area, I note the desire of the Minister in the report to have the traditional arts as one of the first or second art forms funded by the State. That obviously would have implications for the budget of the Arts Council which would need additional resources to support its various activities; otherwise the money would be spread more thinly.

On the practical measures that could be taken, I wish to raise the issue of VAT on entrance charges to cultural events, specifically theatre. Although our VAT bill is small in overall Exchequer terms, it is punitive for the organisations we represent. We, therefore, urge the committee to consider a zero VAT rating on theatre tickets which would allow us to offset some of the VAT payable on inputs.

The question of multi-annual funding is not limited to the arts; it has been raised with the Government by the social partners and many other organisations. We work to a nine month timetable. We make our pitch for funding in August and funding for the following year is decided in December. If we plan ambitious shows, tour abroad or work with new writers and directors — it takes time to workshop new work — a nine month timetable is extremely difficult. The question of the Department of Finance moving to a three year funding envelope for the arts has been discussed. We believe we would be able to provide better value for money if we had a guaranteed minimum level of income, perhaps over two years.

Although FÁS supports the performing arts through community employment workers, there is also the issue of professional training for writers, directors, actors and technical personnel. FÁS does not provide support to any extent in terms of funding in this area. This is a slight anomaly because €1 million is spent on training for film and television professionals. I am aware that representatives of Screen Producers Ireland have appeared before the committee. We do not begrudge them the money, but it is an anomaly that so much funding is available for training film and television professionals while literally not one penny is available from FÁS for training in the professional arts.

The report deals with the audiences of the future and young people in schools, a subject that I know is dear to the heart of the Chairperson. I was struck by how many in the theatre and dance community spoke about the need to examine the school curriculum because those at school will be the audience, the directors, writers and actors of the future. Due to funding problems the drama curriculum is not being implemented at junior or senior level. While there has been a great deal of talk about interdepartmental groups to make this happen, it has not happened. Music education is also close to the Chairperson's heart but generally arts education in school is woefully patchy and under-funded. On its present budget, to expect the Arts Council to become involved in the arts in education or hospitals is not sustainable. We need joined up government. Other Departments have to become involved in the arts, particularly in the field of education.

Mr. Frank Kelly

It is an honour to be asked to speak to the members of this committee who are all literate in the arts. My contribution comprises a series of reminders about priorities. The arts form an intrinsic part of the fabric of our lives; they are not something extra or a luxury. They are not the property of an intellectual elite. There is something of a little blue stocking about the term "arts" as it makes many think they cannot aspire to or be involved in them. They are not the property of highly educated people, but many become highly educated through the process of being involved in them. They are fulfilling and something for all the people to aspire to. What I find very rewarding, having adjudicated around the country with amateur drama groups, is the burning idealism of many. They do not do what I do for a living but the arts are very much part of the cohesive fabric of their lives. They make people realise we do not live to work, we work to live. What do our earnings buy us but fulfilment. It need not necessarily be the theatre, it may be music or dance, but these forms of expression are significant and without them the outlook is very bleak. We will work until we drop.

Funding for the arts is never just a donation of a gift or the granting of a favour. By funding the arts we are funding the very fabric of the lives of our children and grandchildren — a major responsibility. I have had the good fortune in the course of my work to be brought around the globe. As an experiment, I have dropped the names of Irish manufactured products in out of the way places in American states and Europe. People do not think of these products as being made in Ireland but they know exactly where they come from when reminded of the Broadway hit of Brian Friel. That is a significant part of our identity, our signature. This is not to play down the role of commerce and inward investment in the growth of the economy but the arts have a part to play.

The recent showcasing of the Irish arts in China made a tremendous impact. The Chinese have a very deep interest in culture for its own sake. When one considers the growth of business by virtue of this identity, the more we build our artistic profile, the more effective we will be. I am not suggesting that I have a purely commercial approach to matters of an artistic nature, but the arts have as much a place in the fabric of our lives as commerce. It is by our art, writings and theatre known abroad that we are remembered.

Nowadays, less so in my day, actors undergo rigorous training. It takes tremendous commitment to become an actor as they are not really accepted in the psyche of the country. In some cases, when an actor presents at a social welfare office, having spent a long period out of work doing auditions — remember that auditions are hard work; they are applications for jobs and many of those who go for an audition have trained specifically for it — he or she may be asked the reason he or she does not train for another job if he or she cannot get work. I have been very fortunate in that I have been involved in the business for 45 years. I have reared to adulthood seven children, of whom I am inordinately proud and all of whom have gone to second level education. However, I have spent long periods out of work and do not use coy terms such as resting. I have gone to the labour exchange and, with great pride, drawn down my social insurance payments. I did not go down to beg. I went down to collect from a fund into which I had put money, and I was proud to do so. It must be very dismaying and dispiriting for these actors to be asked would they not consider training for something else. It is a point worth taking into account.

I reiterate the arts are not a luxury. They are an important and necessary component of our lives. My strength is not in working with figures or with graphs and computers. We want the committee to help us do our bit to contribute to this exciting growing economy.

On the subject of the Joyce festival, many years ago I had the privilege of playing in a little theatre on the left bank in Paris, at the Theatre de Nation on the Rue des Écoles, near Boulevard Saint-Germain. We did "The Voice of Shem", Mary Manning's adaptation of "Finnegan's Wake". To most Irish people "Finnegan's Wake" is opaque, it is difficult to read. It is like "Jabberwocky". One must be very patient and struggle with it. The French people all buttonholed us afterwards and asked in detail about the text. They were completely literate in it. They also applauded at places where it had never got applause in Dublin. In a way, therefore, we did not know what we were doing. We were getting applause and riding on the back of it. It shows how literate these people were in something Irish. That, to me, would be an indication of the force of the arts — writing, literature and theatre.

I will not bore the committee by going on because I am inclined to do that. I have a great passion for what I do and life has given me the great privilege of doing it for 45 years. I ask the committee to support the arts because it is an imperative, not a favour.

Mr. Johnny Hanrahan

I thank the committee for inviting us. I apologise for my late arrival, which was due to public transport over which I have no control. I apologise if I am reiterating points that have been already made. I will make them fairly succinctly and I hope I will not drag out matters.

Theatre Forum is delighted to be before the committee again. I remind the committee that the last time we were here we were dealing with a crisis in our art form and in the arts generally. The previous year's budget had imposed certain cuts on the arts which, we were at pains to point out despite the relatively small amount of money involved, had a disproportionate impact on our capacity to produce. During the previous year the arts community had devoted its energies largely to survival, to maintaining the infrastructure we had so painstakingly developed over the previous ten to 15 year period and to generally coping as best we could with our fundamental needs in terms of keeping going.

What suffered more than anything was the production of art and when the production of art suffers, the populace at large suffers because the impact of the artistic production in which we are involved is reduced. In that situation, we were at extreme pains to point out to this committee that the Government would need to take this problem very seriously, that it was not a small cut, that it was having a significant impact and that it could set back catastrophically our development as an industry — a term I use advisedly with all the caveats about the imagination being primary to what we do. We were not speaking rhetorically. We were speaking extremely practically and knowledgeably from our awareness of what is going on within our sector and within the other parts of the arts.

I acknowledge that the members of this committee and of the parliamentary system who pledged to us on that day that they would support our views and bring them to the Government did so because there was an extremely positive response from the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism and from the Minister for Finance, and a significant restoration of funding occurred last year. It would be churlish of us not to acknowledge that and not to point out that its impact is immediately palpable. It is palpable in the strengthening of the infrastructure of the arts and in the increase in the number, and quality, of productions during the past year. It is also palpable, importantly, in the fact that during the past year several major international events have occurred in this country which have been led or largely supported by artistic or cultural activity. My colleague has already referred to the China festival, the EU Day of Welcomes and the Joyce event.

These are all cultural events, but we know that here culture is playing a key role in many other dimensions of our social functioning. It has an economic function. It has a diplomatic function. I am sure I do not need to spell out its functions to a group as experienced as this in these terms but it is important to note that these particular events, which we were so well able to present during this year, are one-off events. They are contributions to the welfare of the nation as a whole and to its development. I am not speaking rhetorically — anybody would acknowledge that. The vital point is that the capacity to mount such events and make them work is dependent on a healthy infrastructure in the first place. If, for example, that grant aid had not been in place this year, our capacity to respond to the invitation to participate in the Chinese festival or all of those other festivals would have been weakened.

We are not here to hold out the hand each year and claim continuously that we are extremely poor and in need of a few shillings. Theatre Forum, in particular, is in the business of professionalising artistic activity; in other words, we are working towards the creation of a certain set of industry norms which would put us to a certain extent on a par with other sectors. People, including ourselves, have traditionally considered us to be a group who are driven by imagination, hope, passion and concepts which are not measurable or supportable necessarily by conventional means, but Theatre Forum demonstrates, by its very existence and by its range of activities during the past year, that we, as a community of artists and arts workers, are working to build a set of supports for the people with imagination who work in unpredictable, wild and wonderful ways. These people's capacity to do that is being facilitated by solid, professional development and, fundamentally, we are here to discuss the various ways in which that professional development can come about.

Rather than coming with a generalised plea to be given a few more bob, we are here to say we have definite developmental priorities and we ask the committee to respond to those priorities by supporting us at Government level and within the political system generally in advancing the cause of the arts. Frank Kelly's passionate plea on behalf of the arts renders him a mouthpiece for the thousands of people who work within the industry. That should be taken as an absolute quid pro quo for what we do. Most of the people involved in the arts do it for love, but equally there is an imperative for people who spend their working lives in this industry to function in a professional way.

In terms of developmental principles and priorities, it is clear that there is a fundamental need across the arts for more funding. That is the first matter we have identified as mandatory. The second matter of which we are certain is that being given more money is not like being given a blank cheque. Being given more money requires us to look at the nature and range of what we do and to see if what we do is adequate to the changing society in which we operate. Essentially, we are talking about developing the kind of theatre we make and developing the range of impacts that theatre can make. By this I mean such matters as touring, outreach programmes, educational programmes and a vast range of ways in which the arts can be integral to the fabric of life, not as a confection on top of one's daily bread but as an integral part of one's diet.

There are very definite channels through which this can be achieved. However, the problem is that when people are tightening their belt, the arts are hammered. The result is that the lesser amount of money being invested is less efficient in terms of its impact in society at large than the greater sum we propose should be invested. Effectively, giving us more money renders all the money invested more efficient. It is important to stress that diversification of what we do in terms of the plays and the pieces of theatre we make, the relationship between theatre and other performing arts and between theatre and other art forms enrich the nature of the art we make. That inquiry is taking place at every level of the performing arts. Equally we must find new and better ways of ensuring this is not the preserve of an elite but a democratic and wide-ranging experience for the population at large. The touring and other outreach programmes are examples of a range of models that need support if we are to progress.

We have a healthy and growing industry. Social health is dependent to a certain extent on artistic expression and freedom of imagination is an inevitable prerequisite for a free society. We are making a philosophical and economic argument for the arts and because we have a strong basis for both we are seeking further investment from the political system in the development of the industry. Our primary purpose is to make this a reminder of that request.

A crucial point made before was the need for integrated funding of the arts. People know from their experience in rural areas that disintegrated funding for the arts or cultural activity is highly problematic. We are all aware that a significant number of venues have opened up throughout the country, all performing a vital community purpose but there is a disjuncture between professional funding of theatre and the amount invested in these theatres. In other words, because the money has come from different sources, there is no integrated plan as to how these theatres will function. Ms Bannotti has already adverted to the fact that many members believe that education and the integration of drama into children's lives at a very early age is a vital priority. That means proper communication between the Department of Education and Science and the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism.

There are mechanisms of communication between the different Departments and members are aware of the argument that the arts are not the preserve of one Department but of all, just as education has an impact on every Department. We wish to emphasise the idea of integrated Government initiatives and interdepartmental initiatives as an essential prerequisite for the real enhancement of the impact of the arts in society at large. I thank the committee for the opportunity to address these two points.

Chairman

I thank all three members of the delegation for their contributions. All members of the committee share an understanding that those engaged in the arts do so out of love but also that it is a profession, similar to teaching or nursing. Three of the five reports we conducted in the past 18 months to two years have been on the arts. We believe that in partnership with those involved in the industry we can progress the arguments and find some solutions. Members of the committee visited the Nabokov centre in Russia recently, which was under threat of closure. The local authority wished to charge a commercial rent for the Nabokov centre and we were able to engage with Brian Friel and Seamus Heaney to try to convince it to realise that James Joyce is a golden goose and that the writer Nabokov could be the same. International co-operation and partnership are important. From my experience in China, if one says the word Riverdance, all the Chinese say Riverdance, Ireland.

Let me reiterate that the arts are central to the holistic development of the child. If children are exposed to the arts, not only are they exposed to something that will develop them as persons but possibly provide both the audience and performers of the future. That is ultimately a win, win for everybody. It is interesting to compare the expenditure of 0.09% in Ireland versus 0.19% in Northern Ireland, because those involved in the arts in Northern Ireland do not believe they are getting the funding they deserve or need. That is an important statistic. I assume I am correct that Theatre Forum is working from the 2003 figures in its presentation and that the investment in 2004 has been greater.

It is interesting how the concept of disintegrated functioning in the arts ties in with another subject, volunteering. While every volunteer group is doing something worthwhile, sometimes splinter groups arise necessitating additional offices and infrastructure. Something similar is happening in the arts, with theatres springing up everywhere, but who ensures the ongoing funding for heating, lighting and so on? There are some very good drama pilot projects dependent on year to year funding. Projects that are not being funded by the Arts Council argue that the Arts Council funding is ring-fenced and they would have no hope of funding. Is there a requirement that Departments as well as the Arts Council should fund the arts? The Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív, instituted the CLÁR programme, where he provides additional funding for developments in a CLÁR area. For example, if the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government gives a euro for a road, the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs will provide a matching amount, or if the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism provides 80% funding for a sports facility, the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs will give 20%. Would similar cross-departmental funding work for the arts? If the Arts Council puts up a euro the Department of Education and Science could match it by X factor or the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism could match it by Y factor. There are nine applications for funding for every organisation that succeeds in getting funding from the Arts Council, an increase from the 7:1 ratio last year. That makes it very difficult to get funding. We must seek imaginative ways of maximising what is available and take from different Departments rather than robbing Peter to pay Paul.

Will Mr. Hanrahan comment on the approach of Theatre Forum to funding for pilot projects, such as drama in the curriculum, including those which are not mainstreamed and funded by the Arts Council? If the cake is bigger, it will absorb more people, but already there are more applications for the available funding.

When it was suggested that FÁS plays a role in the professional training of theatre professionals, does that mean it funds the training or provides that service? The joint committee has taken on board the request for a zero VAT rating on tickets and multi-annual funding. I will open up the discussion to members and bank the questions.

Deputy Deenihan

I welcome the delegation. Deputy O'Malley requested that I be brief and I will oblige. I agree with Frank Kelly that the arts, more than any other aspect of Irish life, have defined us as a nation in the 20th century. It is a cultural imperative that everybody should have access to the arts, and to professional productions at the highest level. The cultural capital engendered by the arts throughout the country is not fully evaluated.

Theatre Forum will probably agree that the regional spread of professional productions does not allow people from many parts of the country to access them unless they travel to Dublin or other large centres. If there is a tradition of local drama productions or an artist in the community they may have the occasional play or art exhibition in the local school or community hall. While we have made strides, many people have access to professional theatre only on television and that is not the same as a live performance. Where we are failing is that most productions on television reflect a foreign and not an Irish culture. Will Mr. Hanrahan respond to this major issue?

Last year the then director of the Arts Council resigned for very good reason following the scrapping of the arts plan. There are questions that need to be considered, even though the delegates from Theatre Forum may not wish to answer them. As the host country for the EU Presidency during 2004, increased funding was provided for the arts to stage performances for the visiting delegations.

Arts-cultural centres have sprung up around the country without any plan for ongoing funding and the role the Arts Council will play in the future of these centres. The Arts Council will support some but cannot support the proliferation of centres in specific areas when other parts of the county have none. We should not overlook other sources of funding for the arts. For example, the Department of Education and Science spends more on the arts indirectly than the Arts Council or the Department for Arts, Sport and Tourism.

I am a former PE teacher and there seems to be total neglect of both the arts and physical education in the schools. The arts in schools are not being led by the Department of Education and Science but by the initiative of individual teachers or a strong local tradition. The curriculum in the primary and post-primary sector has become very academic. The potential of the Departments of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Foreign Affairs, Justice, Equality and Law Reform and Health and Children to provide funding for the arts should be encouraged. Perhaps somebody should be given responsibility to consider ways to promote the arts for various reasons, environment, justice or health. This may be a way of maximising the funding for the arts across the spectrum.

Three plays, by W. B. Yeats, J. M. Synge and George Fitzmaurice, a north Kerry dramatist, are playing in the Peacock during the Dublin Theatre Festival. However, it must be said that but for the Abbey centenary, George Fitzmaurice could be forgotten about. "The Dandy Dolls" by him was by far the most exciting production on the night, an imaginative black comedy and the language is totally different. I thank the director, Conall Morrison, and the cast for doing such an excellent job. Unfortunately, it will not be staged in George Fitzmaurice's area because it would be too expensive to tour with it. I advise everybody to go to it during the theatre festival, which runs for three weeks.

I looked around to see who was at the theatre and noted that I was one of the youngest in the audience. The age profile of the audience should be considered. These are plays from the past, but young people would have especially enjoyed "The Dandy Dolls". If we are to pass on respect for culture and these plays are all historical commentaries on Ireland of a particular time, it is very important that the next generation is listening to these plays and being educated by them. How does one attract a young audience to the Peacock?

I am convinced that George Fitzmaurice's time has yet to come because another great play of his, called "Magic Glasses", was generations before its time. How will Theatre Forum attract young people to see the good drama happening at present? Is an effort being made? Can Theatre Forum discount tickets? For example, must everyone pay the same amount? As far as I am aware the only discounts available are for pensioners. Why are discounts not available for those going to school? Why not have half-price tickets for these young people and make it an attractive proposition for them?

Considering the arts plan that was scrapped, and the funding for it, we need to consider what we should strive to achieve for next year. There seems to be a great deal of money around. When the reduction in funding of €5 million was made in 2002, adjustments had to be made in the budget and the arts were the first to be targeted and hit. Last year the funding increased to the level it should have reached that year. I hope that next year, because of the good state of the public finances, the funding can continue to increase to the level it should have reached by 2005. I am sure Theatre Forum would be happy with that. All it is looking for is what was——

Ms Bannotti

Promised.

Deputy Deenihan

——outlined in the arts plan for 2005.

Deputy F. O’Malley

I apologise for being late. Unfortunately I just missed a train and had to wait 15 minutes for the next one.

I welcome back members from Theatre Forum, particularly with this tremendous document. By and large, when they speak to this committee they are speaking to the converted. When we try to make the arguments for support for the arts, often those who are not passionate about the arts respond to the economic arguments. Theatre Forum forcefully makes the case for why the State should support the arts.

I have a number of questions. Are we to get a copy of the complete report?

Ms Bannotti

Yes.

Deputy F. O’Malley

I probably missed that detail earlier. I look forward to reading it. It was interesting to note from Ms Bannotti's presentation that when the funding was cut, the earned income responded well. If I was Minister for Finance, I would look at that and think, "There you are. When forced to do it, they can. They dug deep and the money came up." I do not know whether the delegation, as professionals, would agree, but the ability of the arts to stand on their own and to fund themselves to a certain extent is a strong case in Theatre Forum's favour. It means there is a demand and people are responding to it. I would be interested to hear the delegates talk a little about how that earned income increased. If I was a dispassionate Minister for Finance, I would be inclined to think they responded and if they are put under pressure, they can do it.

I am grateful to hear the positive comments about the fact that the Minister delivered quite an amount of money last time. It is appreciated. When the members of the delegation were here on the last occasion I am not sure they genuinely believed the Minister would be able to get that much. Fair play to him, he got it. We were all very pleased with that. He may be leaving office today and we have no idea what kind of muscle there may be for steering the arts in the future.

Is it only because the arts plan has been scrapped that multi-annual funding has finished? I understood multi-annual funding remained as it was. I would be grateful if Theatre Forum could address that issue.

It is instructive to hear from Ms Bannotti that half the State support goes back to the Exchequer. It is those arguments that need to be made. Theatre Forum's request for zero VAT rating is indicative of how, if one is supporting the arts, one should let them hold on to their money and maximise the use of the resources we can provide for them.

I appreciate the clarity in this document and Theatre Forum's request to engage FÁS in developing and supporting the training for the professional performing arts. That is a glaringly obvious link and yet I was not aware of it. It shows the benefit of Theatre Forum coming before the committee.

The timing is good. Theatre Forum has produced this document with which all of us may make a strong case for funding for the arts. As Ms Bannotti stated, as we look back on the year there are many instances of huge cultural events that have identified, and flown the flag for, Ireland. The arts are one way we can do this. More than Kerrygold butter or whatever, the arts are our cultural identity. We can sell this and take our place on the international stage with great pride. That is why I believe the arts particularly deserve support. I am grateful for Theatre Forum's attendance today and for the report.

Senator Ó Murchú

Is mian liom fáilte croíúil a chuir romhaibh anseo chun toscaireachta. Thug siad soiléiriú an mhaith dúinn ar na chursaí atá idir láimh acu. Is mór an cabhair é dúinne ar an gcoiste gur daoine proféisiúinta cosúil leo fhéin, a thuigeann na cursaí seo, atá ag chuir eolais ar fáil dúinn. I was impressed by the presentation. In many ways I was particularly taken by Frank Kelly's presentation and the philosophy he put forward. Perhaps one of the reasons for that is that I am biased because I have been a particular fan of his over the years. He has made a huge impression on people when it comes to the performing arts in Ireland. I can remember when he came to our Brú Boru centre at the foot of the Rock of Cashel. He received a very warm welcome and I hope he will be back with us again soon.

There are a couple of points I wish to make. Perhaps this is a peripheral area. When Frank spoke about having adjudicated at the drama festivals throughout the country, he made the point about the philosophy being other than a commercial outlook on the arts. What would be Theatre Forum's view on the non-professional community-based drama groups? We all have participated in those in some shape or form over the years. I always have seen them as being very much a vehicle for education and certainly it also created audiences for the professional artists. I always have felt the Arts Council's view on those drama groups to be very restrictive. There were times when a small amount of money would have been very helpful to them. If one looks upon those groups, in some instances, as being the nursery for the professional arts, such treatment is short-sighted. With the number of bodies Theatre Forum has on board, it might use its influence in that regard because I do not think anybody sees any conflict between the amateur and professional movements. The opposite is the case, but the Arts Council is restrictive in that regard.

There is a strong view abroad, perhaps more so in provincial or rural areas than in urban areas, that the Arts Council has a stultifying effect on the arts. I do not expect Theatre Forum to agree with that. It is argued that if one is receiving grant aid from the Arts Council, it stultifies much debate. Such debate could have been helpful to the Arts Council. We end up with two sides of a debate, that of the friends of the Arts Council and that of the non-friends of the Arts Council. The result is that the Arts Council is a body with a great future behind it, and that is a pity. Since 12 people come together from diverse backgrounds to sit in judgment on creativity — let us be honest and I am sorry to say, they do — that eventually also gets into the policies of the Arts Council.

Looking at Theatre Forum's status, I was impressed with all the bodies involved. They are the practitioners. They are the people out there in the field. They understand the potential and the needs. They are in a far better position to provide advice.

I would like to see the format of the Arts Council changing. I do not and will never see it as a developmental body. That is one of the reasons the last arts plan was put in the wastepaper basket. The Arts Council cannot play that role because it does not have that expertise but it has an impact on policy. I fully agree with Mr. Hanrahan on the need for an integrated policy for the arts. The idea that a single body can reflect the arts environment is unrealistic. It is not correct to say that only the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism is responsible for the arts, they apply to every single Department from Finance down. We must be courageous enough to open the window and let in the light and realise that the Arts Council is only one cog in a very big wheel and that all the other Departments must build into their policies provision for the arts in their budgets.

I am a strong advocate of FÁS because I have seen its success at community level. It is one of the few bodies that is pragmatic in its choice of personnel. Almost every single worker in FÁS comes from a profession or trade and brings that to bear when dealing with clients. The mark of FÁS is visible in every village and town, but a more important aspect is that the people who worked in partnership with FÁS, often vulnerable people on the margins, felt ownership of the projects in which they were involved. I hope the suggestion made by Mr. Hanrahan on the role of FÁS will be considered very carefully. FÁS has the people at the coalface where they are needed. I was involved with a performing group and have been to China, Japan and Korea and had the privilege of performing not only on the Great Wall but in the Summer Palace, the Forbidden City and Tiananmen Square. An RTE crew accompanied us to show what could be achieved. Irish artists are respected for their talents all over the world. In Asia they would know something of our history, but the artists are respected for their talents and they have proved themselves down through the years. The relationship between the Cultural Relations Committee and the Arts Council needs to be examined.

Theatre Forum comprises practitioners and it should be researching ways of funding the arts. This requires a more focused approach on the potential, which may not be there in years to come as boundaries disappear. It was interesting that only 23% of respondents to the survey conducted by Theatre Forum seemed to favour a return to multi-annual funding. What is the significance of that because I understand that multi-annual funding is a very important issue, but perhaps it is only important for those in receipt of funding. To be open and frank, it is not necessary to be beholden to the Arts Council. It is important to consider the bodies that were not granted multi-annual funding and consider their position. Should the grant aid to the Arts Council be decreased next year? Those in the first division will be funded but is that good for the arts? Theatre Forum must be upfront on issues such as that.

I welcome the document. Funding of the arts that is well used is good for morale, it provides opportunities for young people and communities and enhances our image abroad. Bearing in mind the strength and influence of Theatre Forum, I appeal to it to build more bridges with the community in every possible way.

Senator McHugh

I apologise on behalf of Deputy O'Malley who has a prior engagement, but she would like that I act as a conduit to relay the replies to her questions. Deputy Deenihan may withdraw to attend a Front Bench meeting.

I agree with Mr. Frank Kelly who made the point that the arts are the fabric of our society. They are part of who we are. I am not involved in the arts but looking from the outside, the arts are an a la carte grouping sporadically appearing at a certain time of year in a certain community, such as the Errigal Arts Festival in County Donegal or the Galway Arts Festival. Perhaps the beauty of the arts is that something beautiful emerges from nothing.

The mechanism to promote the arts is through education, in the primary and secondary sector, through the goodwill of teachers and principals, reaching out not only to students but communities to become involved because teachers are the ambassadors of the learning process. They see the needs of young people changing and the demands on communities because of the pressures on family life and lifestyle. We have a role as legislators to mainstream the arts through primary and secondary schools. That does not mean that the arts become a subject with a specific slot on the timetable but that the curriculum evolves to facilitate the arts. That may mean appointing an arts officer in a particular secondary school, who will involve the community on an after school basis, at weekends, in the evening, or at breaks during the day, sporadically within the curriculum. I am a former secondary school teacher and my former colleagues detail the ever increasing demands to maintain good relationships with students. The arts can offer a solution in building relationships between students and teachers. The demands are becoming greater and the arts can facilitate a solution to the tension which exists at present.

The academic subjects remain. We still need to teach Pythagoras' theorem, etc. Such work is still so important. At the same time, however, we need to ensure balance. This is a matter close to the heart of our Chairman, Deputy Keaveney, and Ms Bannotti. She recently wrote an article on it. It is a matter on which we must come alive or, as Senator Ó Murchú says, on which we must become brave. We must involve the arts because the time is right. We can do it on a joint basis. We can do it by mainstreaming the arts through the schools but also by ensuring the continued sporadic popping up of the arts, be it through a community group emerging or an idea coming out of nowhere in the back of beyond, which is the beauty of the arts. The mechanism exists to mainstream the arts through the education sector but the will, through the Department of Education and Science, to change and evolve the curriculum is the secret to it.

Deputy Kelly

I welcome Ms Bannotti, Mr. Hanrahan and, in particular, the man with the famous surname, Frank Kelly. I am honoured and delighted to be in the same room as a world famous actor. I will not give him a big head.

Mr. Kelly

It is too late.

Deputy Kelly

The case is argued well when somebody of the calibre of Frank Kelly takes the time to bother to talk to us about his passion for the arts. He is a hugely successful man. As Christmas Day approaches, one thing I look forward to more than anything else is "The 12 days of Christmas" by Gobnait, to which I listen every year — I should have it off by heart at this stage.

The arts have made huge strides in the past couple of years, in case anybody might think differently. To relate this to Longford where I am from, which I cannot help doing, we have the Backstage Theatre in Longford town. It has a brand new, modern state-of-the-art theatre with seating for 220 people. Its staff and management, who are members of Theatre Forum, are doing an excellent job. We also have the Bog Lane Theatre in Ballymahon which is doing a great job as well. It is a fairly new theatre. We have the world famous Shawbrook School of Ballet in Legan, County Longford, which is doing a fantastic job. In fact, a lady who was educated there ended up as the number one ballerina with the Berlin Ballet in Germany and she was number two in Covent Garden in London. We also have numerous musical societies, such as the St. Mel's Musical Society, and drama societies.

I congratulate the Minister, Deputy O'Donoghue, on his commitment to, and understanding of, the arts. He is a genuine and sincere man and he believes in the arts. We will admit that due to restraints in the past few years we had to cut the cloth according to our measure. That was an overall general policy but now we are back on track again. Ms Olive Braiden has not been long on the Arts Council, but I compliment her. She has done a good job elsewhere and since she came into the Arts Council, she has done a good job.

I fully support the advancement of the arts. Everybody here is of one mind. We all understand and realise the value of the arts and what they mean to the people of Ireland. Perhaps we all should work and act together. I do not know whether Frank gives classes, but I would be willing to learn. We are only amateurs, he is a professional.

I fully support the arts. We are only tipping the iceberg. Looking at the number of television channels, I realise that apart from the pleasure and fun there must be in acting, it involves carpenters, directors, producers, lighting and heating staff and all the different trades. They must get much satisfaction from it.

The arts do a great deal for the people. Given the educational importance of them, they should be treated slightly differently. They lift people's hearts. It gives them a sense of purpose. A man might not be academic or might not want to go to school or study, but put him on a stage at the local theatre or in a local musical society and one will see as he walks down the street that he has a bit of pride in himself and it lifts his spirit. Everybody is uplifted by the experience.

Everybody here supports Theatre Forum. Let there be no doubt that while we will not promise Theatre Forum a crock of gold, we will do our best to promote the arts, not because we are patronising or because we want to be nice guys, but because it is worthwhile and for the good of the country.

Senator Daly

I join my colleagues in extending a welcome to the members of the delegation and thank them for the professional and precise presentation and for the important documentation. There are a few matters on which I would comment and perhaps Theatre Forum would like to respond then.

There is a view that the forum is a mainly Dublin oriented organisation and that it does not have a major effect in the regions. It is a matter which was touched on by Deputy Deenihan. As has been said already, there has been an explosion in the development of venues in the regions, for instance, in Ennis, in my constituency, there is the new Glór centre which is already making a significant contribution. Following a difficult situation at the start where it was in financial difficulties, although the financial position is still fairly tight, Glór is getting by in that there are more people coming to the performances. In this respect, can Theatre Forum contribute to the finances of the regional bodies and venues, for example, by putting on performances which would bring box office returns which would substantially resolve some of their financial difficulties?

Theatre Forum and its individual members can contribute to the development of a programme in the schools. For instance, my interest is a product of the Anew McMaster visits to the secondary schools in the 1950s. Anew McMaster, in his time, made an enormous contribution to creating an awareness, especially in the second level schools, of the plays of Shakespeare and others. He toured all the secondary schools in Clare — Flannan's College, the Christian Brothers' school and the school of the Convent of Mercy — and created an awareness which stayed with people. To some extent, he set down the foundations for some of the amateur performances that we see. As Frank Kelly will be aware, he adjudicated in Doonbeg at the West Clare Drama Festival.

The amateur performers have been able to draw fairly sizeable houses in the past few years. It went through a period when it almost went out of existence. I can recall officially opening the West Clare Drama Festival in Doonbeg, where I spoke to about half a dozen people. That was about 20 years ago. That position has been transformed and at last year's festival it was almost impossible to get tickets to some of the performances. The success is down to participation by local people and parents coming out to see the sons and daughters of their friends performing on the stage. How can members of Theatre Forum, as professionals, link in with the amateur movement to help increase the box office? I have not had time to study the report's section on the box office issue, but good performances will draw a good box office. The members of Theatre Forum, as professionals, have a part to play in that regard in some of the venues, especially in the regions. Does Theatre Forum see a role for itself in that regard and can such a role be put on a formal footing, especially in the case of venues like Glór in Ennis, the secondary schools and colleges, and even the national schools?

When I was in South Africa for the elections, some young Irish women who are friends of mine put on performances where they went into the primary schools dressed up as giant lemons and apples. That type of activity does not take place in national schools here. In a place we felt was light years behind the developed Irish scene, in some of the townships, young Irish people were putting on performances that were creating the type of activities mentioned. Theatre Forum has a part to play in this and we will do whatever we can do to help.

Chairman

The number of contributors shows that the committee is interested. The fact that people have not said that we would love you to go into the schools and put on the school play speaks volumes for their understanding that that is not what is wanted when an actor or actress goes into a school. We do not want them to produce the school play, we want them to be an integral part of who the students are and what they will become. I would not expect the panel to comment on the efficacy of the Arts Council because members of the council will appear before us in a couple of weeks and we can make that point ourselves.

As it would take at least a day to go through much of this material, if the delegation wants to make some points, it can submit written information afterwards. It should not feel under pressure to dot all the i's and cross all the t's because its time is as valuable as anyone else's.

Mr. Hanrahan

Theatre Forum sees itself as a representative organisation for theatre and other performing arts. Some 60% of our members are regionally based and the dissemination of information and range of activities is in no way Dublin-centred. As a Cork man and chairman of the organisation, I would be determined as much as anyone else that would not be the case. We all know that to be an effective body we have to represent the many Irelands that exist.

I reassure Senator Ó Murchú that Theatre Forum has never been afraid to make its views known to and about the Arts Council, about its functioning, its structures and what we think is best for our members and for the arts. There has been a debate within Theatre Forum as to the stance we should adopt towards those who fund us. Our primary funding comes from the Arts Council and, indirectly, from Government. We feel that we have a responsibility not just to ourselves but to the Arts Council and the Government to be vigorous advocates of particular lines of thought. We do not feel compromised. I will not go into specifics about what the Arts Council should do but I emphasise that Theatre Forum is not anyone's lapdog. That sounds grandiose but it is a general statement of the collective sentiment within the organisation.

We have stated from the beginning that our desired role is that of advisers-partners-participants in the business of policy framing. This is what we are doing here — we are contributing our opinions to a forum that will make submissions to the forum that makes the decisions. We feel privileged and it is appropriate that we have this opportunity to put forward our views in a cogent fashion. Instead of rumours and anecdote, we offer a focused and professional perspective from a group of people who work all year round gathering the views of our members and presenting them in a unified way. This is how we see ourselves proceeding.

Supports for members come under the term "capacity building". We are not in a position to make specific interventions in any specific organisation or member except to offer advice. We have no resources other than a professional executive that can facilitate information exchange and contacts between particular clients and those whom they need to meet. There is a host of professional services available on our website, such as legal services and information about insurance. That is how we try to fulfil that dimension of our remit.

As I began with a conversation about our own functioning and the functioning of our members, I should clarify our attitude towards multi-annual funding. The people most interested in multi-annual funding are those who used to have it but no longer have it. The principle of multi-annual funding is universally supported by our members. There are, however, doubts about the functioning of the multi-annual funding mechanism as it was. People did not believe it was transparent, equitable or effective and I speak as a former artistic director of a company that received multi-annual funding. For us it was extremely beneficial but there was a lack of clarity about why we got it and the expectations that surrounded our having it. Even those who were in receipt of multi-annual funding would advocate a much more sophisticated system. There is no question that lack of clarity undermines the basic principle we are all advancing, that multi-annual funding has been a huge step forward and if it was properly worked out, with a mechanism through which people could participate and a transparent system, everyone would support it.

The theme of disintegration ran throughout the presentation and the questions. It is important that we do not think that everyone needs to solve our problems for us. There are two forms of disintegration at work in Irish theatre at the moment that are inevitable given the state of the development of the society and the art form. Many things have happened in a short space of time. Many new theatres have been established, professional companies have evolved and new structures have developed. As always, these things happened not as part of some grand plan but because of individual passion and initiative and local conditions. We have a burgeoning cultural sector where many connections between people have not yet been made properly, and I emphasise "yet" because Theatre Forum is keenly aware of the need to create synergies. That is one of our priorities — to create the information exchange, the forum where people of different interests and backgrounds can meet. We are working hard to do that and we are not the only ones. Other organisations in different art forms and many ad hoc and more formal partnerships are working to create a more integrated system. That will continue. It is important to stress that the artists and those within our professional world are all working to achieve that.

The other form of disintegration that I mentioned, and that everyone here believes is present, is at Government level. It is encouraging for us to hear people state categorically that the arts are the business of all Departments. If that principle was implemented effectively, it would transform our lives, never mind our cultural lives.

This is like a feast of love as everyone is in agreement. This type of integration mechanism, of which education is a major element, should be developed next. We do not have the necessary access, and it is inappropriate for us to suggest particular mechanisms but we urge the committee to debate strategies that might advance the principles it has outlined.

Chairman

The sub-committee was going to follow the discussion of traditional arts with one on arts in education which may provide a forum for that debate.

Mr. Hanrahan

Yes, it might. I am familiar with some programmes in South Africa. The South African constitution refers to mainstreaming the arts, thus putting culture at the heart of what it means to be South African. It is no accident that these poverty-stricken townships produce operas written by children and that people come from around the world to support this initiative because it is like a clarion cry for a certain way of thinking about being human. We are all fascinated by the adventure of South Africa and it is delightful to people who care about culture to see that its people have placed it at the heart of their sense of themselves.

There is a risk that people here do not have appropriate access to the arts. There are several dimensions to this problem. First, there is a strong regional spread. It is inevitable that a capital city hosts a significant amount of cultural activity as is true of capital cities everywhere but that is no excuse for making such activity exclusive. Many individuals from small places decided that they did not need to live in big places to do something of world class. Garry Hynes is a hero of this movement. There are theatre companies and arts practitioners all over the country striving to emulate her vision, whatever about their practical success. Very few people in Ireland believe that they live in small places. Billy Roche says that nobody in Wexford thinks they come from a small town. The knowledge that the local is universal has such power and is part of what makes us culturally vibrant and powerful. We come from different parts of the country and know that the cultural power exists but the mechanisms are not in place by which top quality artistic activity can reach those areas. A proper touring policy is mandatory. Touring is in chaos and it is a business for Theatre Forum, for the Arts Council and perhaps has wider application too.

The second point is that people do not always look to the centre for what is great. That is the strength of the amateur movement and of the regional arts centres. It is important that we use our imagination to visualise structures in which the plays and poetry can happen, and to make new connections between people. While it is valid to ask why the Abbey does not come to this or that village as it has a responsibility to do — as does Druid, which has done this in its unusual rural tours — the real question is what models of activities in the arts can keep these small places vibrant and independent and not just as cultural outposts to centralised activity. The serious challenge to us is to imagine structures that may not exist but that will facilitate local creativity and create synergies between that and high level work in the professional theatre.

I heartily endorse the notion that there is a continuum between local amateur activity and professional activity and one needs the other. Government needs to consider how they should interact. All our members have come from some form of amateur activity and some are still involved in it or in interaction between professional and amateur activity.

In response to the question about the age profile of theatre audiences I have often been the oldest member of an audience because a large sector of the theatre world is keenly aware of this problem. It exists in the type of plays being made, the technology used in them and the issues with which they grapple. There is a burgeoning youth theatre movement and a certain kind of drama evolving which is particularly potent in Cork among young writers, who are also to be found in other parts of the country. It is an absolute priority to ensure that the lifeblood of youth continues to enter the industry and that the images created are adequate to the experience of young people. I apologise for speaking at such length but I wanted to cover several points. Thank you.

Chairman

It is a pleasure. Tania made the point that all good things happened last year or in 2004 and it will be back to bread and water next year. As capital of culture next year Cork will ensure its culture gains international recognition. I do not accept the argument that there is no good reason to sell ourselves just because we no longer hold the EU Presidency. There is no presidency in the Peking Opera and we still hear about it. There is always a reason or an excuse to sell ourselves and draw a crowd.

I wish the forum well in its work. We appreciate its visit and look forward to its full report. If anything else arises we would be delighted to hear from the forum and we will give feedback on the report which will provide another opportunity to express ideas. I thank the visitors for their time.

Deputy Deenihan asked us to consider the idea of a report on the traditional arts. We will try to add that to the programme as soon as possible but we will also be present, regardless of who is the new Minister tomorrow, at the sub-committee meeting on the Arts Bill to discuss the arts in education. If we do not start with the young people there will be no audiences and performers in the future although we are in a healthy position now.

The joint committee adjourned at 11.50 a.m. sine die.