JOINT COMMITTEE ON ARTS, SPORT, TOURISM, COMMUNITY, RURAL AND GAELTACHT AFFAIRS debate -
Wednesday, 21 Apr 2010

Head Shops: Discussion.

Chairman

I welcome the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, Deputy Pat Carey, Mr. Michael Conroy, principal officer, and Ms Ní Néill, assistant principal officer.

I draw the attention of witnesses to the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege but this same privilege does not apply to witnesses. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name.

I congratulate the Minister on his promotion and I wish him well on my own behalf and on behalf of the members of the committee. It is a challenging new job but I know he has already hit the ground running.

The issue of head shops is causing serious concern throughout Ireland. Today, the Garda Síochána is carrying out a national investigation into the sale of illegal drugs and attacks on head shops. It has become a controversial issue which is being constantly raised in both Houses. I am pleased the Minister is attending this committee for the first time to deal with this issue. People want this issue tackled urgently but it must be dealt with in a correct legal manner. In plain words, head shops are a legal loophole for providing harmful substances to young people. They provide massive profits to the sellers and massive harm to the buyers. This loophole must be closed immediately and I welcome the Government's commitment to doing so.

This committee is looking forward to working with the Minister in the months ahead. His will be the co-ordinating office for other Departments and Ministers, including the health, education and justice areas. The Attorney General will play a crucial role.

I invite the Minister to make his opening statement and members will then ask questions and make comments.

Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs (Deputy Pat Carey)

This issue is a topic of discussion both inside and outside the House. It was raised on the Order of Business this morning by a number of Members and the Taoiseach replied. The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy Dermot Ahern, took an Adjournment debate on the issue last night. I will be dealing with the issue in the Seanad later this evening by way of an Adjournment debate. A number of Deputies, including Deputy Ring and Deputy Catherine Byrne, raised the issue with me before Easter. I am very well aware of the concerns because there is not a town in the country which is not touched by what I referred to previously asan insidious and pernicious phenomenon.

I am aware of the many concerns that have been expressed in recent times regarding the activities of head shops and the new psychoactive substances — represented as legal highs — which are being sold in these outlets. These concerns include the potential health hazards arising from the use of these products and the possibility that their use may act as a gateway to the use of illicit drugs. Indeed, people are presenting in accident and emergency departments of hospitals suffering ill-effects following the use of products available from head shops. This happened last week in at least two different parts of the country.

The use of the term "legal highs" or "legal substances" for the psychoactive substances sold in head shops is problematic in the sense that the products were never tested and approved for legal use; rather, they are products that were never made illegal. We are aware of the harm caused by drug misuse to individuals, to their families and to their communities. This harm manifests itself in many ways, through negative health, socio-economic impacts and crime.

Head shops and "legal highs" might be regarded as a relatively new aspect of the ever-evolving issue of substance misuse in our society. When I was Minister of State in this Department two years ago, there was concern about head shops at that stage. The figure was then thought to be approximately 26 head shops in the whole country but it is a lot more than that now. I am determined to tackle the problems arising and to pursue all viable approaches to counter the potential threats involved.

The response of Government to problem drug use is outlined in the National Drugs Strategy 2009-2016, the strategic objective of which is, "to continue to tackle the harm caused to individuals and society by the misuse of drugs through a concerted focus on the five pillars of supply reduction, prevention, treatment, rehabilitation and research". The specific identification in the national drugs strategy of the issue of the proliferation of head shops and the availability of "legal highs" reflects the Government's concerns in this regard. Two actions of the strategy deal with this issue. This strategy is almost complete at this stage. Action 14 calls for the monitoring of the activities of head shops and all businesses involved in the sale of psychoactive substances, with the objective of ensuring that no illegal activity is undertaken and for appropriate steps to be taken to reform legislation in this area where it is deemed to be appropriate. Action 15 recommends that drugs-related legislation be kept under continual review, with a particular focus on new synthetic substances and new or changed uses of psychoactive substances against the background of EU and broader international experience and best practice.

Through the Misuse of Drugs Act, which is the primary legislation through which these substances can be regulated, the Department of Health and Children has drafted regulations to introduce controls on a range of substances. These regulations will make the possession and sale of these substances illegal and subject to criminal sanctions. In line with a recent Government decision, the draft regulations have been notified to the European Commission under the relevant technical standards directives, as controls under the Misuse of Drugs Act involve a restriction on trade. It is envisaged that the regulations controlling the various substances will come into effect in mid-July, at the conclusion of the three month process. In preparing the required regulations, the Department of Health and Children consulted the relevant authorities to ensure that legitimate uses of the substances involved are not impinged upon.

A number of other measures are also in train. The activities of head shops are being closely monitored on an ongoing basis by the Garda Síochána and Revenue's customs service with a view to ensuring that substances which are currently illegal are not being sold. The HSE, in association with partner agencies under the drugs strategy, is finalising a national drugs awareness campaign that will focus on the dangers of psychoactive substances available through head shops. The national advisory committee on drugs has been asked to carry out some targeted research in this area.

My Department has also been in contact with the Attorney General on a range of possible approaches to the matter and a number of issues arising in that context are being considered at senior level within an interdepartmental framework. This interdepartmental group is considering how best to draw up legislation to deal with head shops. The approach taken may include creating a criminal offence of supplying unregulated psychoactive substances for human use. Planning, consumer protection and insurance are also among the issues being considered in this context.

The actions taken in other jurisdictions are being monitored to inform this work. The issue of head shops and new psychoactive substances is of serious concern to governments in many countries given the international nature of this problem. A number of countries have taken action, each adapting their approach to reflect their own laws and experiences. However, no EU member state has come up with a fully comprehensive response thus far.

The Government is working to ensure that the new psychoactive substances sold in head shops and through the Internet are no longer freely available and, as far as possible, are removed from circulation for good. I will continue to work with my ministerial colleagues to ensure that speedy and effective action is taken. My preference is that we would introduce legislation to put an end to the operation or opening of head shops. I recognise, however, that such legislation could not be applied retrospectively without difficulty. We hope to introduce robust and watertight legislation and other measures to combat this pernicious influence on our society.

Chairman

I thank the Minister and wish him well in his work. I share the public's concern on this issue. It is understandable that people take a black and white perspective when something evil is occurring. It is our duty as legislators to put an end to this. The Minister outlined how he intends to proceed with this work in his interview with Cormac O'Keeffe in the Irish Examiner. As a committee, we want to offer whatever assistance we can on new legislation. We share a sense of urgency in this given that a new list of banned substances will not be issued until 8 July.

What is being done in other EU member states? There has been considerable debate on EU co-operation in the context of volcanic ash from Iceland. There should be close co-operation among states on the issue of head shops. I am aware, however, that legislative practices differ among countries.

A loophole must exist in planning legislation to bring an end to head shops in Ireland sooner rather than later. I do not doubt that Opposition parties will co-operate on legislation.

Deputy Michael Ring

I welcome the Minister back to the committee. He previously appeared before us as a Minister of State and I wish him well in his new portfolio.

I received a lot of nasty e-mails on foot of certain comments I made during Question Time on Holy Thursday. However, I stand over my comments and I am not afraid to take the abuse. It reveals, however, that people are monitoring what is happening in Parliament and are concerned about the laws that might be introduced to deal with them.

I ask the Minister, his departmental officials and the media to stop using the term "head shops". They are not head shops, they are drug shops. The term "head shops" gives them respectability but there is no respect in drugs. We should be speaking about the illegal drug shops that sell unregulated drugs over the counter.

I understand Britain did not notify the European Commission before it banned some of these substances. We should not wait three months before introducing our own legislation. If there is a safety concern for the citizens of our State, we have the power to introduce the necessary legislation and we do not have to wait for permission from Europe.

I commend the Irish Examiner correspondent, Cormac O’Keeffe. He has been writing about drugs for a long time and his newspaper made the point that we are only learning about drug shops now because they are affecting middle class Ireland. Families in working class areas are suffering because of drugs and the recent cutbacks in the drug budget. We want the Minister to update us on his drugs policies at a future meeting of the committee because these people do not have the same contact with politicians as everybody else in this country. We cannot leave them isolated simply because there are no votes to be won. The knock-on effects on health, theft and law and order need to be discussed.

Is the Minister in favour of regulation or closing the shops down? Every house in Dublin can take advantage of a drug shop home delivery service from 7 p.m. to 4 a.m. between Thursdays and Sundays. How will we deal with such a service if we close down the shops? I hope the Garda will investigate this issue further. The gangsters who are making serious money out of the illegal drug trade in rural and urban Ireland are burning down drug shops because they are affecting their business. Are we doing right by banning them or would it be better to regulate them so that we would know what is going on in them?

I commend Clare County Council on its planning regulations, which prohibit drug shops within 10 km of schools and in other areas. The Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and the local authorities have a role to play to ensure that where these persons come in for planning applications, they deal with them on the basis that they are not beside schools, as has happened in some towns.

This is the fastest growing business in Ireland. We are in the middle of the worst recession since the foundation of the State and whereas a number of months ago there were 25 or 26 of them, I believe there are now over 100 drug shops in the country. Something must be done to deal with this.

I ask the Minister to outline how quickly he will bring this legislation or regulation, whichever it will be, before Dáil Éireann to deal with these drug shops. People are saying this must be done before someone dies. Last week in my county a young fellow's parents were sent for at 3 o'clock in the morning where he was given an hour to live. They thought he would not make it. He got through the night and just made it. That evening he bought a substance in one of these drug shops and they still do not know what he took on top of other drugs he was taking as well. Children or adults will die. We need to deal with this quickly.

Something must be done by the Minister, Deputy Carey, who has responsibility in the matter, and the Government because it cuts across the Departments of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. If one owns a pharmacy, there is regulation to the effect that one must have a professional person to run it or otherwise one cannot have it.

I will not use the word that upset these people so much in the Dáil. I will get more e-mails over the next few days but it does not bother me because I will not take threats from anybody. All I will say is that these are drugs being sold over the counter and we need to regulate. The Minister might confirm what the proposal is, either to regulate or to close down altogether.

Deputy Jack Wall

I fully support the Minister in his efforts to eradicate the head shops now in every town and village in the country. The Labour Party will fully support anything he wishes to do in that regard. I ask that when the heads of legislation are agreed by Government he provide an opportunity to the Opposition spokespersons to look at them and to assist in that regard, envisaging that this would want to be a joint effort to ensure that every "t" is crossed and every "i" is dotted.

Deputy Ring made many interesting points on the matter, and notably on the delivery service. I cannot for the life of me figure out how a local authority has not control over its own area so that such a thing could happen in the sale of products from these shops at the specific hours that they talk about. There must be something within that legislation that would make this type of sale an unauthorised development and as such the local authority has a power to follow it up, and ensure that those seeking to provide such shops are under the rules and regulations of planning of the various local authorities.

The big issue, which arose at a recent branch meeting of the Labour Party where I was dealing with it, is the insurance of the products sold and how these people are selling these products which result in consumers ending up in hospital and yet there does not seem to be any protection for them. In the normal course of events, in the case of all the drugs sold in pharmacists an insurance policy applies to protect people if there is a misunderstanding. It seems these people can sell what they like and there does not seem to be a come-back for the purchaser of the product. Under consumer protection and product insurance, there must be a mechanism by which we can ensure that the unfortunates who purchase those products and end up in hospital, with all the medical problems attached to that, can make a claim against the head shops. We must try to use that mechanism to put pressure on the head shops springing up in every village and every town.

As I stated at Question Time on the last occasion, the head shops have now formed their own association. They will fight everything that will come from this legislation every step of the way and we can see that the matter may end up in the Supreme Court.

I agree with the Minister on ensuring a cast iron case in legislation but we also want it done as quickly as possible to ensure there are no deaths. If, as Deputy Ring stated, those leaflets are in Dublin today, the Minister can rest assured they will be in Kildare tomorrow and Kerry the following day. They are trying to build a résumé of support through unfortunate people who are using these head shops to purchase this stuff. They are trying to get people on their side. I recently heard a woman from Kerry on one of the chat shows defending all of the products she was selling and stating that she was doing nothing wrong yet we read in the newspapers where people are in hospital because of it.

The Minister can rest assured that my party will support him in every way possible. Obviously, we want it done as quickly as possible. Insurance of the product being sold, planning issues through local authorities and consumer protection are three areas that can be addressed fairly quickly to ensure that these shops do not get a footing in towns and villages.

I saw a recent protest march in my constituency opposed by people out on the streets. One can see there is already that feeling that these head shops are doing some good. We all know the damage being done but one can see what is happening, that they are trying to build up a resistance to opposition to their existence. We must fight that at every turn and ensure what we do is right.

The Minister will certainly have my party's full support. I would ask him to liaise with us on the legislation coming forward and we will do everything we possibly can to help in that regard.

Deputy Michael Kennedy

I welcome the Minister, Deputy Carey, wish him well and congratulate him on his elevation.

Some months ago we all might have assumed that this was a problem in inner city Dublin or other built-up areas; it is now everywhere. In my constituency, there are four in what one would call middle-class areas — Balbriggan, Swords and Malahide.

On Monday night last I attended a meeting in Malahide at which more than 500 people were in attendance. The Garda was present along with other agencies involved in drugs advocacy, etc. The Garda related that it had personnel observing the particular premises during the course of a Saturday night when more than 50 young people, some as young as 12, went into it. With such 12 year old kids, one might ask where is parental responsibility and why do the parents not know where their kids are. We have a big enough drugs problem through the normal drugs trade without effectively putting these shops on our high streets.

I fully subscribe to and welcome the banning of the products but, with all due respect to the Minister, I do not see it ending the problem for the simple reason that if they change the specification of the product, it becomes a new product. That has been the experience in the UK and I think it will be the experience here in June when the Minister bans certain products. I certainly would be of the belief that we should effectively regulate these shops out of existence through, first, planning laws and, second, as other speakers have said, insurance. I come from an insurance background and I would be fairly safe in stating that these products would not gain insurance anywhere in the world. Bringing in insurance requirements would be one good way of ensuring that these products could not be sold legitimately.

I welcome the fact that the Garda has taken action today. At the meeting, the Garda sergeant said the existing misuse of drugs legislation is not effective in prosecuting the sale of these products. I found this hard to take. The Garda sergeant also said that given these products are a danger to public health, treating them as a foodstuff under food safety legislation might be another way to combat them.

The four Ministers for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Health and Children, and Justice, Equality and Law Reform, must be involved to secure a rock solid resolution involving planning, insurance and health laws without loopholes. There is so much money involved in this trade, loopholes will always be found. For example, approximately €450,000 was found in a safe in a head shop burned down on Capel Street. Another establishment is providing €75,000 every month in VAT receipts which means it must have a turnover of more than €300,000 per month. This trade needs to be regulated out of existence.

I have been made aware of the takeaway and delivery-to-door element of some head shops, similar to the dial-a-can service. Anyone in that business must have a trading licence and be able to provide evidence of insurance. If not, then the Garda can prosecute them. This trade is a scourge with four services already operating in north Dublin.

Deputy Cyprian Brady

Deputy Pat Carey will bring his wealth of experience in this field from his previous ministerial responsibilities and from his work in his local area.

The Dublin Central constituency has the highest concentration of these so-called "head shops". I agree with Deputy Ring that we should be calling them something else. The first such shop opened in our area in 2004. At the beginning of this year there were 17 shops but it quickly rose to 27 at one point. Now, due to some serious incidents it is back down to 20. However, it is not just a Dublin but a national problem. It always amazed me how easily and openly drug paraphernalia for illegal drugs could be sold. In the United States, action is taken against the sale of various pipes, incense and different powders used as drug paraphernalia.

I am particularly concerned at where these shops are sited. The majority of them in my constituency are a stone's throw away from primary and secondary schools. In one particular instance, the shop is within 20 m of a drug treatment centre at which methadone is dispensed. Perhaps an element of planning law can be used to regulate this.

I have learned from the local drugs task force and the Garda that the proprietors of some of these shops have informed them they have substances ready to replace the ones to be banned in July. The question is whether licensing or banning the shops is the route to take. Licensing will control it more. An adult is entitled to do what he or she wants. It is the under age group that needs to be protected. It is much more difficult for children to get access to these products on the Internet because they would need a credit card. However, these shops are cash-orientated which makes them accessible to children. In the Dublin Central constituency, there are queues of young people outside some of these shops at 3 o'clock in the morning.

These products must be imported through airports and ports and someone must take delivery of them. There is a role to be played by the Customs and Excise in tackling this.

Senator Jerry Buttimer

Hear, hear.

Deputy Cyprian Brady

It will take a large inter-agency approach to address this. The national drugs strategy is in place with its five pillars. Parents have a role to play in this regard but they too have to be educated about the dangers of some of the substances sold in these shops.

I wish the Minister well in tackling this matter. The sooner some control and legislation is introduced dealing with these particular premises, the better.

Senator Jerry Buttimer

I congratulate Deputy Pat Carey on his appointment to Cabinet. I also welcome Gráinne Kenny from EURAD who has been campaigning against head shops to the Visitors Gallery.

Like Deputy Ring, I commend the Irish Examiner for its insightful reporting on the drugs industry and head shops. We must stop calling them “head shops” and instead call them “drugs shops”. They are operated by gangsters who have no consideration for anyone but their own profits.

We must also stop young people from taking drugs of any hue. The Government has a fundamental role in this but I am not sure how it will be able to balance its act. On one level it will cut funding to services to prevent drug misuse while claiming it is committed to tackling the problem. Jennifer Hough in today's Irish Examiner is correct that cutbacks will affect the working and middle classes and those marginalised by drug abuse who all deserve action.

I am concerned about waiting for permission from the European Commission to ban head shops when we can get the green light to bail out the banks from it almost immediately. Why do we have to wait for Europe? Why can we not take the lead in this country on behalf of our fellow European citizens? I accept the Minister's bona fides and acknowledge that the Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Harney, banned certain substances but there is too much procrastination on this issue. These head shops have no legitimate purpose. They do not provide any service to the community.

Deputy Ring highlighted this leaflet earlier. The back of the leaflet reads like a menu in a Chinese takeaway. It has a menu, which includes an appetiser called "roll on", a main course and novelty bath salts. That is an eye-catching leaflet and if one were open to influence one would do this without any bother. Deputy Brady is right. We must remove these head shops from mainstream Ireland. Young people do not have ready access to credit cards and we must make it difficult in that regard. This is a cash oriented business.

I support the call to use the customs service more often because these products are coming in here from elsewhere. If one were to look at the spam in our e-mail one would think we were all suffering from erectile dysfunction because we get so many e-mails about it. That is coming from somewhere. The customs service, along with other agencies, has a role to play in blocking these products coming into Ireland.

I do not have accurate figures on the raids on head shops but how many prosecutions have there been against the owners of these head shops? If there have not been prosecutions, what is the reason for that? Is it because there has been a delay in that regard and if that is the case, what is the reason for that? Why have we not brought prosecutions against these people?

There appears to be confusion as to who is responsible for the legislation on this area. I am aware people e-mailed the Taoiseach's Department. The Taoiseach e-mailed back saying he had asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy Ahern, to investigate. The Minister, Deputy Ahern, e-mailed back that he had passed on the query to the Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Harney. Nobody is taking responsibility yet a new set of dealers are coming into the area. I realise this is an emotional topic but they are dealers peddling drugs by a different name. That is the bottom line. They try to cover themselves by saying these products are not for human consumption. These are mind-altering substances which lead to psychotic episodes and being a former teacher the Minister will understand that the effect of these substances on young people can last for two hours, two days, a lifetime or even lead to death.

I hope the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, who seems more hell-bent on changing rural Ireland than changing the planning laws regarding head shops, or drug shops, will ask councils, as part of their development plan or in terms of retrospective planning, to impose limitations on these shops in terms of where they can trade and their opening hours.

I understand the Minister will be in the Seanad later tonight for the Adjournment debate but I thank him for his remarks. As Deputy Ring said, those of us on this side of the House are willing to embark upon a journey with the Minister but we need action now rather than later.

Senator Pearse Doherty

Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire. Ba mhaith liom comhghairdeas a dhéanamh leis as ucht an ardú céime atá bainte amach aige. Ta súil agam go mbeidh go leor deiseanna againn na hábhair éagsúla a phlé leis.

I have listened to the debate and along with the majority of people I am very frustrated at the time it is taking to take decisive action at Government level to address the issue of head shops. I represent a Border constituency where a number of head shops are located. There are two head shops in Ballybofey, in Donegal town and in other parts of Donegal. As the Minister is aware, one of the products, mephedrone, was banned in the North of Ireland but that has created a demand five minutes down the road in the nearest head shops across the Border. The fact that we have not examined this issue on a Europe wide basis, or even on an all-Ireland basis, is a flaw in the first place.

The Minister mentioned that the British Government has banned this product outright without referral to Europe. That is the right course of action. The Minister said that the advice from the Attorney General and the Minister for Health and Children is that we must go through the three months process with the European Commission but why did we not ban it outright? We should take a twin-track approach — ban the substance outright and go through the three months process under the rules in Europe. It is my understanding that if there is a danger to public health member states have the power to ban these substances outright anyway.

We have been fiddling on this issue, so to speak. It is four years since my colleague, Deputy Aengus Ó Snodaigh, raised the issue of head shops and the need to set up a regulatory authority to deal with the importation, licensing and banning of these substances. Four years later we have seen an upsurge in the number of head shops throughout the State.

In terms of what is happening, a number of products will be added to a proscribed drugs list and we are waiting for European Commission approval. That is not good enough. It took us less time to ban the sale of plastic bags in our shops than it is taking to ban the sale of mind-altering drugs to young people. If these drugs were being sold in plastic bags the Green Party might introduce legislation immediately to ban them. That is the anger being expressed. People are frustrated at the length of time it is taking to address this issue.

A comment was made at a rally in Donegal town where hundreds turned out looking for action on this issue. They mentioned that when there was a scare in our agricultural sector Irish products were being taken off the shelves throughout Europe within 24 hours yet week after week, month after month, year after year we are seeing no action on this issue. These products continue to be sold, and they are being sold legally.

I do not want to be too harsh but the Minister's statement is a farce. He stated: "The use of the term ‘legal highs' or ‘legal substances' for the psychoactive substances sold in head shops is problematic in the sense that the products were never tested and approved for legal use and rather they are products that were never made illegal". We are talking about a serious danger to people. People are being hospitalised. People are dying. Doctors do not know how to treat the people affected by these substances. Is that what the Minister is presenting to the Government, namely, that they are not legal; they were just never made illegal? What people want is decisive action.

I am aware the issue is problematic. I am aware also that solutions were offered, for example, examining the Planning and Development Acts with a view to banning the emergence of new head shops. That would be welcome but it will not deal with the issue. We cannot deal with the issue retrospectively but let us address it. As discussed on the Pat Kenny show about two years ago, a way to support the economy is to allow a two year extension in terms of planning permission. That part of the planning and development legislation has not come into force. Why not bring in emergency legislation to allow local authorities ban the opening of new head shops? That will not deal with the problem of the existing head shops or commercial enterprises that want to change their operation from a barber shop to that of a head shop but at least it will stop the emergence of new head shops.

The problem is not just the existence of head shops, however. If we focus on the shops we will be focusing on the wrong end of the problem. These products are being sold over the Internet, as people have said, in tattoo shops and in other places. They are not just sold in head shops.

I have two questions for the Minister on this issue. Our party is drafting legislation to support the Government's stated aim of closing these head shops. We believe we must focus on the products, not where they are sold. We are seeking European Commission approval to ban these products but there is already a demand for them. As people have said, if we ban these products there will be a new similar but rebranded products on the market very soon afterwards. We must license the products before they come into the country.

Section 74 of the 1991 Child Care Act deals with the issue of the sale of solvents. Under that Act, the sale of solvents is prohibited to anyone under the age of 18 years. The Act prohibits the sale of substances to children where there can be a reasonable belief that these may be inhaled to cause intoxication. It is an offence and people can be imprisoned. Why do we not introduce an amendment to the existing legislation that extends it to non-powder, psychoactive substances that cause intoxication to those under 18? That is something decisive the Government can do and it would be supported across the board by other political parties. That does not impinge on the need for some of these substances to be used in medical circumstances. This can be done as a stopgap measure until we introduce an authority to test, license or ban these substances. Not all of the substances need to be banned although the substances sold in these shops should be banned outright. We need decisive action. Will the Minister examine the Child Care Act to deal with this matter? From the accounts of teachers and parents, I know schoolchildren on their breaks are going to these shops and buying the substances in their school uniforms. The wrappers and by-products of these substances can be seen around school grounds. People under the age of 18 are purchasing these products. Legislation bans the sale of solvents. We need to amend the legislation to deal with this matter. Will the Minister consider an authority to deal with licensing these products? Such an authority should have the power to ban products outright, to test them, to regulate them, to identify and classify all non-medicinal psychoactive substances and prohibit or restrict their use.

Deputy Mary Upton

I thank the Minister for attending this meeting to deal with this urgent issue. We have now seen some of the short-term negative effects. More importantly, we have no idea of the long-term effects of many of these substances. We are dealing with an unknown and for that reason alone we need urgent action.

I do not want to rehash the various comments made on the action to be taken. Regarding planning laws, one can open a fruit and vegetable shop and one does not need planning permission to change the use of the premises. Tomorrow it can be a head shop as they are popularly known, although I acknowledge the problem of calling them head shops. Major planning issues exist and a 10 km radius around schools will not work because the shops will move to 10.5 km from the school and be within the legal limit. Planning must be more specific and effective.

I query whether derivatives can also be banned. The Irish Examiner refers to the Department of Health and Children submitting to the EU a list of drugs it proposes to ban and refers to a recommendation from Dr. Des Corrigan that legislation in Ireland allows the banning not only of the specific chemical but also of its various derivatives. If we can ban them and their derivatives, how far does that extend in respect of the chemical structure? Adventurous chemists may be able to redesign a drug and can tack on one molecule so that it becomes a different product. How effective is this idea and what does it mean?

What EU country should we take a view from in terms of the legal framework? Most European countries are in the same situation and they have the same problems. The Minister suggested no European country has the solution to this problem. Are there broad guidelines from another country to speed up the process for Ireland?

Internet sales represent a major problem. No matter what we ban, we must find a way of dealing with Internet sales. Other speakers have pointed out that the problem exists in respect of other substances. How should we tackle this?

Is it legal to sell these products to someone under 18 years of age? I have two quotations, one from an article in the Irish Independent: “Under the law, customers must be over 18 to buy anything from a head shop.” Another comment, from someone who runs a head shop, refers to the under-18 ban being self-imposed. Are children under 18 allowed to buy these substances? Is this legal? I ask for a specific answer.

The issue will not go away, irrespective of whether people are under 18. We must have some protection for people under 18 in the same way as we address alcohol. Perhaps this is not as effective as we would like but regulations exist. An interagency approach is required. The Food Safety Authority of Ireland and the Irish Medicines Board must combine to present whatever kind of package is needed. I am immediately concerned about the short-term effects and the way these shops have sprouted all over the place. Each time, we see one or two new shops in our constituencies. I am certain they will not go away. I watched a programme on BBC 3 last night on the situation in Guernsey, where head shops are common on any street. They are treated as a normal retail shop. The end of the programme showed people who had taken legal highs in the United States and the effects were horrific and dramatic. These people looked like they had the immediate effects of Parkinson's disease. The programme did not show the long-term effects, how long it took to recover or whether people recovered. Anyone looking at this problem would question whether this is what we want and whether we are willing to take this risk. Whatever needs to be done should be done to ban the substances outright.

Deputy Catherine Byrne

I will be brief. Much has been said, as other speakers have noted. It is important to hear what is said because everyone has made relevant points. What is needed is joined-up thinking across every party and across every agency. We are fortunate to have a Minister who knows his brief, a comment that does not come very often from the Opposition. I have known the Minister, Deputy Carey, for a long time and I know of his commitment to working with young people, particularly those in difficult circumstances. To say that head shops or drug shops, whatever one calls them, are out of control is an understatement. They have become a nuisance in every community for young adults and minors. The sale of any substance that alters the minds is a real concern for many parents whether purchased in a shop that is legal or illegal. A child may take something out of a press and drink it and this is a major concern for every parent. No parent would offer a child plant food or a bottle of turpentine to drink. We do not know what is in these legal drugs but we know that whatever is happening to young people after they take these products is causing serious health issues. As other speakers have mentioned, the long-term effects are a concern and no one has their finger on the pulse in this respect.

I spoke to a few principals and teachers about the issues in schools. Our young people are falling ill in corridors and classrooms when they come into school and they must be taken out. Teachers find it difficult to treat these children. It is not the responsibility of the school when young people must be sent home or taken to hospital.

There is a major criminal aspect in this matter because people have decided to take the law into their own hands. Whether we like it or not they have decided to burn down the shops. It is wrong of people to believe they have the right to petrol bomb or damage premises. If this continues, innocent people will be killed. I spoke last week to two classes of fifth and sixth year students and asked them if anybody had during the previous week spoken to them of the dangers of products bought or sold in head shops. This issue had not been discussed with them. In fact, some of the children did not even know what a head shop is, which is a real issue of concern to me. We have a captive audience in our classrooms and we must take the opportunity to inform them of the effects of taking illegal substances. As a parent, I believe it is the duty of all parents to discuss openly with their children the effects of illegal drug taking in general and to find out who they are mixing with, where they go and what type of pressure they are under in school or in the community, in particular at weekends which is the time when they might go out for a meal, to a disco or party in a friend's house.

One of my children told me last week that she was openly offered cocaine at a party. Thankfully, perhaps not even as a result of my having discussed this issue with her, she and her friend left the party immediately. The message is getting through to some young people. We must be forceful on this issue and must, as parents, accept responsibility for discussing with our children on a one-to-one basis the horrific effects of taking illegal substances. I accept that there are many young adults who are not in the same position as others in terms of family. It is time we addressed this issue. I accept this is but a short term answer to a long term problem. However, I urge the Minister to discuss with his colleague, the Minister for Education and Skills, how we can get more information on this into our schools, thus allowing us to begin to educate young people on the dangers of using illegal drugs and of substance misuse.

Chairman

As Deputy Byrne stated the Minister has much experience in terms of dealing with issues of this nature in communities. I would like to make a few brief comments before the Minister replies.

Listening to this debate I am reminded of the farmers in Afghanistan who were growing poppies to supply the drugs trade. The policy was to encourage people to try alternative agricultural products to change their agricultural practices. We all know this worked in only some cases and that these farmers were in effect supplying the drugs trade in central, eastern and western Europe.

If the will existed, these head shops could in the morning convert to health or natural food outlets. I welcome the organic shops available in Ireland. I do not understand how in conscience people can sell head shop products. However, these things happen. Perhaps the Minister could, as an interim solution, sit down with the representative group of the owners of these so-called head shops and put it to them that they should not sell these dangerous substances. I am conscious that enacting legislation takes time. The Minister stated that he will do his best to introduce heads of a Bill or draft legislation in this area before the summer. I wish him well in that. If the reality is that such legislation will take time, is there a case to be made for confronting the owners of these shops and entering into dialogue with them? I am interested to hear the Minister's view on this.

We need interim solutions. I agree that we need to deal with this issue comprehensively. Senator Doherty and others made the point that we need to examine issues such as licensing of products, which is a key issue. We are all agreed that head shops should not sell unlicensed products. That is fairly straightforward. I am sure Members will support me in proposing to the Minister that he, as a member of Government, introduce pre-sale licence policy in this area which would address some of the issues in respect of this type of operation.

Our objective should be to end the sale of these dangerous substances. I accept much work needs to be done with regard to establishment of lists and so on. Deputy Upton made important points on derivatives. We are conscious that these people will seek to find a loophole in any list published. The introduction of a pre-sale licensing system in respect of every product sold in head shops would go a long way to addressing this issue. Anything sold in head shops should be licensed. I put this suggestion to the Minister on behalf of the committee. I am conscious other Ministers are involved. I echo the view of other speakers that, given his experience in this area, the Minister is well positioned to address this matter and that he liaises with his ministerial colleagues in this regard. At the end of the day, we need to have one Minister with overall responsibility in this area. I hope it will be the Minister with whom we will interact in the future on this issue.

Deputy Pat Carey

I thank Members for this comprehensive discussion and the sensible proposals put forward. I welcome the offer of co-operation from the various parties in addressing this issue. As Deputy Wall suggested, I will consult the Opposition and other people with front line experience in this area, in particular Deputies Byrne and Brady, when framing the legislation.

The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy Dermot Ahern, stated in the course of the Adjournment debate in the Dáil last night that while the full details of the legislation have yet to be finalised, the focus will be on seeking to ensure that the sale or supply of substances which may not be specifically proscribed under the Misuse of Drugs Act but which have psychotropic effects will be a criminal offence. We want to outlaw and ban the sale of substances. I want to go further and prohibit the opening of a head shop as a retail entity.

On the three month notification period, I was as anxious as anybody to see if we could evoke this emergency procedure. Following contact with the European Commission and our representatives in Brussels the strong legal advice was that it was likely that if the three month notification period was not followed any subsequent prosecutions would be jeopardised. We must strike a balance between being pre-emptive and introducing a domestic ban and waiting on compliance with the European Union which it is hoped will be forthcoming in early July. As stated by Deputy Ring and other speakers this is a lucrative interest and I can guarantee Members that whatever laws or regulations introduced will be challenged by the industry.

On the final point made by the Chairman, towards the end of my time as Minister of State in this Department I met several owner-operators of head shops who raised with me at that time the issue of self-regulation. I was not then and am not now agreeable to going down that road.

Chairman

Would it be in order to revisit such a meeting, given the Minister's new situation?

Deputy Pat Carey

I will do anything which will contribute to bringing this phenomenon under control. The interdepartmental group has been working since late March and has been trawling through existing legislation. The group comprises Secretaries General, the Garda and representatives from other agencies. It is working under the Attorney General and the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to see how we can perhaps mix amending existing legislation, tightening up regulations and bringing in new legislation. I may be selling hostages to fortune; as the Chairman, as a former Whip, knows, these things can slip. I hope to have enough information available to form the heads of a Bill in a few weeks and then we will move on to more comprehensive legislation.

Deputy Kennedy and a number of others asked the same question. Three or four cases have already been referred by the Garda to the Director of Public Prosecutions. A committee member referred to the Garda being unable to prosecute. In fact, it has initiated prosecutions. It has had to refer cases to the DPP for its adjudication and it is to be hoped it will be possible to bring charges arising from the vigorous campaigns undertaken by the Garda.

Deputy Michael Kennedy

Perhaps the Garda could be sent an information leaflet to say it can prosecute. It was said the other night that it was not in a position to do so.

Deputy Pat Carey

The Garda is represented through the oversight committee on drugs and the drugs monitoring committee at the most senior level. I will convey that information to the representative on the committee.

The issue of planning has been raised. Again, the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government is working with the interdepartmental group. We all have colleagues on local authorities, all of whom are preparing a new five-year development plan. To answer Deputy Ring's question, it does not matter what one calls a shop, be it a drug shop or a head shop. The current planning regulations provide that certain classes of uses are exempt and do not, therefore, require planning permission. A premises whose purpose is "use as a shop" is one exempt class. I presume Clare County Council wants to include it in its development plan.

On the Order of Business today Deputy Costello referred to a Private Members' Bill which the Labour Party has prepared. I will arrange to have it examined to see if some of the proposals in the amendment Bill might inform the legislation which is being prepared. If Senator Doherty's party has something which he thinks might be robust and watertight enough it would certainly help. We could incorporate such proposals if we received them quickly. It is an issue. Another issue is pre-1964 permissions, which are also exempt. It is not as straightforward as many of us had hoped it would be. There is no doubt that every problem is capable of being solved.

On closing such shops, as I said in the interview with Cormac O'Keeffe — I join with others in complimenting him for all the work he has done over many years — I would prefer to see head shops legislated out of existence in order that they cannot operate. The regulation of substances will be very difficult. I totally agree that it is entirely possible that the industry is capable of constantly staying ahead of the bans. Deputy Upton referred to derivatives. Inserting a provision on derivatives into legislation is entirely possible because in the next round we propose to ban some of the BZP derivatives. I spoke to Gráinne Kenny, who is in the Gallery, earlier. She has been a great campaigner for many years.

I understand Romania is the European Union member state which has the most robust approach to this issue; it is a recent arrival to the European Union and I am not sure whether it joined ahead of the regulations. There are countries which have banned some of the substances. Mephedrone was banned and made illegal in Israel, which is not a member state of the European Union, Denmark, Norway and Sweden.

I am informed by my officials that the issue of head shops was addressed at a meeting of the British-Irish Council in Guernsey in February. I am advised that it suggested there were only two head shops on the island at the time. I understand it proposes to follow the approach of the United Kingdom in the short term. Apparently two deaths have been linked to mephedrone in Guernsey. Jersey has banned a list of products, a decision which is working well according to the advice I received. There is a meeting of the European Union national drugs co-ordinators next week, at which the issue will be discussed. Europol and the European Monitoring Centre for Drugs and Drug Addiction are also conducting a European study on the long-term effects of such shops, something which was suggested by Deputy Upton.

The issue of home delivery services was mentioned. Those in urban areas have had a problem with home deliveries of alcohol for a long time, something of which Deputy Byrne will be aware. It is proving very difficult and only in cases where the Garda is working through joint policing committees and fora with residents associations can any kind of inroads be made.

I am not naive enough to suggest that we are on top of the issue by any means, but it needs co-operative action from parents, parents' organisations, residents' associations, the Garda and public representatives. There is probably no quick fix but it is something which we have no option but to do. The manner in which the United Kingdom approached the notification period will prove problematic but it is for each jurisdiction to decide how it wants to proceed.

Deputy Wall raised the issue of insurance and consumer protection, as did Deputy Kennedy. To be frank, I do not believe head shops should ever be offered insurance, but if it is gives the consumer some protection it is fine.

Deputy Michael Kennedy

I made the point that they would not get insurance, therefore, if insurance is part of the regulation they would not be able to trade.

Deputy Pat Carey

As with off-licences, one could insist, for example, that such places close at 10 p.m. or earlier. One could insist that they have to go before a licensing court, as pub and off-licence owners have to do in September, and apply for a licence, which could make things very difficult. Such possibilities have to be considered. The Garda believes that every piece of action one can take has to be used to make it more and more difficult for these people to operate. Mark my words, these people are highly organised and will have some of the best legal representation money can buy in order to ensure that they will not be put out of business. I know I will be criticised, but rather than rushing legislation through I want to get it right. We are working together.

Deputy Mary Upton

Will insurance work for the existing shops? We can do things in terms of future shops, but is there a problem regarding insurance for existing shops? Can a premises be denied insurance because it changes from being a sweet shop to a head shop?

Deputy Pat Carey

I do not have a quick answer to that, but I will get one for the Deputy. I will ask the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment——

Deputy Michael Kennedy

I will use my knowledge of insurance to answer that question. In effect, what is being referred to is product liability insurance. No insurance company in the current climate would offer insurance to any organisation selling these products, no matter who it was. By having a proper regulation requiring mandatory product liability insurance, if a shop did not produce its insurance certificate it would not get a licence to trade. That is one great short-term way of solving the problem of existing or new shops.

Deputy Pat Carey

I suspect they have public liability insurance.

Deputy Michael Kennedy

Public liability insurance does not include the sale of the product.

Deputy Pat Carey

I will ask the working group to pursue that.

Deputy Cyprian Brady mentioned the issue of drug paraphernalia and others, including Gráinne Kenny, have been talking about this for a long time. The wording of the legislation could include drug paraphernalia.

With regard to the location of these shops, we could pursue the Amsterdam experience with coffee houses. The Dutch have restricted the opening of coffee houses within 100 metres of a school or near anywhere young people congregate such as playgrounds and it has been reasonably successful.

The customs service seizes these products but after a specified period they must be released because they are not illegal. That is the weakness currently.

Deputy Michael Ring

I was approached by an au pair from Poland recently who had 300 cigarettes seized by customs officials. The cigarettes, bought in a shop in Poland were taken from her. I contacted the customs and excise service yesterday and the official said they would not be given back. That is illegal. I will get legal advice on that. However, these drugs are coming in every day. Our priorities are wrong and I made the point to officials yesterday. Nobody knows what is coming in and just because a poor creature buys 300 cigarettes in Poland because she cannot afford to buy them here, they are seized by Customs. That is what has this country the way it is.

Deputy Pat Carey

Loopholes will be exploited and the legal people are trawling through these issues working to the working group.

Deputy Michael Ring

Drugs are coming in. It is easy to seize 300 cigarettes from a person who thought she was legally entitled to bring them in.

Deputy Pat Carey

Cigarettes are legal but they are brought here in breach of customs and excise regulations. The other products——

Deputy Michael Ring

The excise tax has been paid. What the Government is doing is illegal.

Deputy Pat Carey

Cigarettes are not illegal and that is the problem. I take the Deputy's point.

Senator Doherty mentioned the Child Care Act 1991 and the sale of solvents. What had to be done in this regard will probably be a template for what will have to be done about other substances. Deputy Byrne and I were around in the days when solvents were a huge issue and, by and large, legislation and other measures helped.

Senator Pearse Doherty

Can section 74 of the Child Care Act 1991, which prevents the sale of any substance, be applied to these products?

Deputy Pat Carey

I will have a look at that to see if it is possible to do that.

Senator Pearse Doherty

The authorities could move in and imprison some of these people immediately if that section could be used. Sting operations should be deployed. People under the age of 18 should be brought in to work with the Garda, which can use its resources against these shops.

Deputy Pat Carey

The Garda has been active in an overt and in a covert way. Gardaí would not be in a position to send files to the DPP if they went into these shops dressed up in their shiny brass buttons all the time.

Senator Buttimer asked about responsibility for the legislation. The proposed legislation will be brought forward by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. My office has a co-ordinating role in driving the national drugs strategy. All other Departments and agencies work to us satisfactorily. I take his point that the provision of resources will not be as great as previously, as is the case in every other area, but I have been dealing with groups and I will meet a few more following this meeting about how they are coping with a reduced budget. However, I am confident much of the work that must be done is being done and will continue to be done.

I refer to the issue of the age threshold of 18 years. The operators of head shops are, unfortunately, not fussy about looking for identification. However, I have witnessed gardaí in the vicinity of head shops. Head shops have received a great deal of attention recently, which I presume they do not like.

Deputy Mary Upton

Is it illegal to sell these products to under 18s?

Deputy Pat Carey

It is illegal to sell them to anybody.

Deputy Mary Upton

It is not.

Deputy Pat Carey

I do not think there is an age restriction.

Deputy Mary Upton

There is not and that is the problem.

Deputy Pat Carey

All they say is, "Unfit for human consumption".

Deputy Mary Upton

There is no legislation in this regard.

Deputy Pat Carey

Like many members, I have seen young people in school uniforms in the vicinity of the shops, although I have not seen them going in and out.

Deputy Byrne's comment about education and awareness is important. As part of the drugs awareness campaign under the national drugs strategy, the HSE is preparing an information campaign along with the Department of Education and Science around drugs generally but there will be an emphasis on legal highs and the products that can be bought in head shops. The best attended meetings in my part of Dublin are information nights organised by schools for parents' groups. The council organised a meeting for parents groups and they brought in people such as Gráinne Kenny or the co-ordinators of drugs task forces or teachers. There will have to be an awareness campaign.

The Walk Tall and On My Own Two Feet programmes promoted by the Department of Education and Science at primary and post-primary level include modules on drug education and most people are clued in enough to know this is the issue of the day. Unfortunately, these drugs are gateways to other drugs and we must get that message across all the time no matter how often we say it and no matter how boring it will sound. People must realise it might be BZPs, Snow or Spice today but, as sure as I am sitting here, it will be something more potent in a few months and it is almost certain the cocktail will include alcohol.

I am anxious to return to the committee soon because the national drug misuse strategy is nearing completion. Departmental officials and the former Minister of State at the Department, Deputy Curran, have done significant work in ensuring alcohol is included in the strategy. Ireland will be one of the few countries to try this approach. It will be a big challenge for all the agencies for the strategy to be effective but it is an exercise well worth doing. That is another day's work.

Chairman

The committee will propose to the Government that the Minister should introduce a pre-sale licence process for the sale of products. That would fit with what he is trying to do.

Deputy Pat Carey

I will always take the views of an Oireachtas committee seriously because they are considered views. I will have it examined and if the Government and I believe it will contribute to dealing with the problem, I am not fussy about who comes up with the solution.

Senator Pearse Doherty

I welcome the reference to the pre-sale licensing authority, which is at the core of our proposal for draft legislation.

We co-operate on an all-island basis regarding the legal drug trade and we need to do so in this regard. With a new Minister for Justice in Northern Ireland, there needs to be a joined up approach. If we continue to use the Misuse of Drugs Act 1977, with the 3 months wait, while the British do not do that, there will be a difference and people will travel.

Deputy Pat Carey

The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform has raised this issue and I will discuss it broadly with my counterpart in the Northern Ireland Executive in two weeks. Discussion is ongoing at official level because we are conscious that this is an all-island issue. We are a country without borders and it is open to a group to exploit the weaknesses in one part of the island.

Deputy Catherine Byrne

When does the Minister envisage the awareness campaign being launched?

Deputy Pat Carey

I chaired a meeting last week at which the Health Service Executive representatives said they were finalising the campaign and that they would roll it out in the next few weeks. Because post-primary schools will go on holidays at the end of May I am anxious to see it rolled out before then.

Chairman

I thank the Minister for attending and responding to questions. I will ask the committee to agree to a motion, which we will circulate. We recommend that the Government introduce a pre-sale licence for the sale of the products. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Deputy Michael Ring

I wish to make a proposal which I am sure someone will second, that the Minister come back to bring us up to date on what is happening in terms of cutbacks and other matters.

Deputy Pat Carey

Yes. I am happy to do that.

Chairman

I thank the Minister and his officials.

The joint committee adjourned at 3.55 p.m. until 2 p.m. on Wednesday, 5 May 2010.