The climate change communications campaign is funded by the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. I welcome Mr. Ó Raghaillaigh and his fellow members of this communications campaign. Perhaps we could begin by asking him to make a presentation and then we will hold a brief question and answer session.
Climate Change Communications Campaign: Discussion with Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government.
Mr. Conor Ó Raghaillaigh
I thank the Chairman for forwarding this invitation for us to appear before the committee to explain the Government's climate change public awareness and communications campaign. I am the principal officer in the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government with responsibility for environment and heritage awareness. The climate change public awareness campaign falls within my remit and I have responsibility for its management from the Department's perspective. I also chair an interdepartmental steering committee for the group. Climate change is a broad-ranging issue, as the committee will be aware. We draw on all key Departments and agencies to oversee this campaign.
As the committee will be aware, the national climate change strategy provides for the introduction of a major five-year communications and public awareness campaign on climate change. The campaign will aim to raise public awareness of climate change, its causes, impacts and implications; promote behavioural change to lower and avoid emissions of greenhouse gases; and work in partnership with various stakeholders to develop programmes and initiatives tailored to achieve emissions reductions in their sectors. The campaign will also endeavour to explain and facilitate the timely implementation of the proposed actions set out in the National Climate Change Strategy 2007-2012 and the agreed programme for Government. We also hope to generate awareness among the public of the need for further action to reduce greenhouse gas emissions and to empower individuals and groups to play their part in tackling climate change.
After an EU-wide tendering process, the consortium chosen to undertake the first two years of this campaign is made up of the following: Cawley Nea/TBWA, which has been involved in the Power of One campaign among others, and which Mr. Pearse McCaughey is representing; the RPS group, with which the committee will be familiar, which has been involved in a number of campaigns for the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, including the Race against Waste campaign and Notice Nature, a biodiversity awareness campaign, which Ms Elizabeth Arnett is representing; and Ms Neasa Kane from Mary Murphy Associates public relations — Ms Kane will talk about the public relations aspect of the campaign. Another partner that is not represented here is OMD, which is a buyer of media services. We will use it in the advertising element of the campaign.
The campaign will be titled Change — Ireland's Plan of Action on Climate Change or, in short, the change campaign. It is a title Senator Obama borrowed from us rather than the other way around. The campaign was formally launched last November by the Taoiseach, the Minister, Deputy Gormley, and members of the Cabinet Joint Committee on Climate Change and Energy Security.
The campaign will develop and implement programmes in partnership with each of the following sectors: the small to medium-sized enterprises and commercial sector; large industry; the public sector; the construction industry; the tourism sector; the education sector, which will be a key partner; and the agriculture and forestry sector. These programmes will focus on working with stakeholders to develop the tools and techniques they require to address emissions from their sectors. This is one aspect of the campaign with which the committee might not be as familiar. The stakeholder engagement or partnership approach is a feature of some campaigns in which the Department has been involved in the past. Ms Arnett will explain more clearly the added benefit of this approach.
The overriding goal of the change campaign is to engage the nation in such a way as to drive significant behavioural change to lower and avoid greenhouse gas emissions. The strategic starting point of the campaign therefore is to create a shared understanding of the issue of climate change. This will be done through engagement with stakeholder groups, as I mentioned, through television, radio and outdoor advertising, web-based tools, public events and intensive media engagement. The first television ads will be on the air in early April, and Mr. McCaughey will elaborate on that aspect of the campaign.
The subsequent phase of the campaign will be to move people from understanding to action. It will present people with positive information, behaviours and tools that will enable them to take action and demonstrate how they can make a real difference. The campaign has been specifically designed to ensure that it dovetails and works closely with related public sector awareness campaigns and initiatives such as the Power of One, the One Small Step campaign run by the DTO, and the Race against Waste, which is being managed by the Department. Duplication in messaging and unnecessary overlaps will be avoided and every effort will be made to enhance the messaging of existing campaigns and programmes. The campaign is being managed by the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and is overseen by a steering committee comprising officials from key Departments and agencies. I will pass over to Ms Arnett who will explain in more detail the stakeholder engagement aspect of the campaign.
Ms Elizabeth Arnett
The ultimate aim of the change campaign is to bring about a sustained alteration in the behaviour of individuals and organisations in all sectors in order to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. The advertising campaign will reach as wide an audience as possible with the call to action of the campaign, namely, Change Your World, Change the World. The public relations campaign will explain why change is necessary and will expand on all the related issues through the relevant media. However, to really change behaviour we need to add something more — we need stakeholder engagement.
We have learned through our experiences on other campaigns that change is brought about by defining for people the actions they can follow. These actions are best defined in consultation with those involved, and most effectively delivered in partnership with them. A major aspect of this campaign will be the implementation of initiatives that are developed in partnership with sectoral stakeholders and aimed at bringing about a change in behaviour to reduce greenhouse gas emissions.
For each of the sectors we work with, stakeholder engagement will happen on two levels — one, at a strategic level with heads of representative organisations whose opinions and attitudes inform and shape those of the wider sector; and, two, at what we call "gatekeeper" level — for each large organisation there will be one or two individuals who hold the key to making the necessary changes and it is essential that the campaign identifies and supports these individuals.
Information is judged by source. When a sector contemplates major change, internal stakeholders are usually better placed to convince organisations to change. This campaign will identify, support and work in partnership with these agents of change to help alter behaviour within each sector.
In a campaign of this complexity, there is no substitute for consultation. We have been spending most of our time since November talking to stakeholders from various sectors, discussing climate change, explaining the campaign, building relationships and working towards defining programmes of activities for each sector.
We know from experience that the right sort of stakeholder engagement will result in the following: a shared understanding of the campaign objectives; an understanding of the sector-specific barriers to change; access to space in stakeholder publications; speakers' opportunities at sectoral events; and best practice stakeholder case studies for use in the public relations campaign. However, the real added value comes from the initiatives that arise directly as a result of combining the technical and communications expertise of the project team with the insight and credibility of stakeholders. Already a wide range of exciting initiatives are emerging. Major consumer brands are willing to allow the campaign access to their customer base through a range of activities. A wide range of companies have already signed up to assist the project team develop a carbon management tool. This will involve a significant resource allocation from these companies for the collection of data and trailing and testing the tool. Large employers are considering supporting a Know Your Number campaign, which will focus on individuals' carbon footprints, where work time would be allocated to allow staff to get to know their individual number using work computers, etc. The project team has also been invited to participate in the teaching of a new masters degree in climate change.
This is just a small sample of the initiatives that are beginning to take shape. Once the advertising campaign goes live and the brand becomes more visible, the campaign will build momentum. Providing stakeholders with access to how the campaign will engage with their sector is the key to ensuring buy-in and will unlock a wide range of supports and access to the sector that will be invaluable to the campaign. On its own, stakeholder engagement is a powerful tool for driving change but when it is combined with inspirational advertising and an effective public relations campaign, the possibilities for a sustained change in behaviour are enormous.
Mr. Pearse McCaughey
The advertising and communications element of the campaign is designed to complement and work in harmony with the activities of the stakeholder element and public relations programme, which Ms Neasa Kane will outline. As a national advertising campaign, it will utilise mass media, including television, radio, the Internet, outdoor advertising, transport advertising and ambient and site specific activities in shopping centres, schools, etc.
The campaign will have two distinct phases. We have called phase 1 the Challenge, which intends to establish a shared understanding of the issue. This will consist of high-profile television and outdoor activity and it will be designed to engage our audience and to position climate change on the national agenda. It will present climate change as the biggest challenge we face as a nation. It will also present it as not only a global issue but as an Irish issue, which is echoed in our slogan, Change Your World, Change the World. It will also provide a context for the issue by reminding people of the various challenges we have faced since the foundation of the State and how we have risen to them. Our intention, therefore, is to give a clear indication of the seriousness of climate change and, perhaps, more importantly, provide inspiration that we are capable, as a people, of meeting the challenge.
Phase 2 is called Numbers. This is about creating national participation and, in many ways, this is where the heavy lifting will be done in a practical sense in this campaign. The Numbers campaign is based on the premise that every one of us has a carbon number or footprint that can be precisely measured. Using broadcast and print media, our first task will be to engage our audience with this compelling fact and drive people to our website so they can ascertain their carbon number based on how they live, work and travel. Based on their individual data, we will be able to offer them a set number of concrete suggestions to change their behaviour, moderate their habits and change their attitude to reduce their carbon number. We will also offer a lo-call service for people who may not have access to the Internet. Combining the Challenge and Numbers campaigns will translate climate change from being seen as an external or global crisis to a national priority, which demands collective and individual responsibility for action.
Ms Neasa Kane
As Mr. McCaughey outlined, the advertising campaign will call on people to appreciate the challenge, get involved in the campaign and to consider how they can change their lives. However, for an issue as complex as climate change, an extensive public relations campaign is also required to put flesh on the bones of all the key messages, to create an understanding of all the issues and to make it relevant to people at a local level. For this climate change campaign, the public relations will inform people about the challenge, elaborate on the myriad of issues, answer questions raised by the advertisements and motivate people to make changes to their lifestyle.
We will use public relations to bring the climate change issues to life for people. We will make them relevant by lining up pictures, stories and articles in newspapers and magazines. We will line up stories on radio, television and our website. We have found the best way to motivate and engage people is to show examples or tell stories about what others are doing so that they see tangible actions they can adopt. When others see or hear these stories they will think, "I could do that too", and they will be prompted to take on the challenge. Through the stakeholder engagement, many organisations and individuals who are making simple but effective changes to their work practices to reduce their emissions have been revealed to us. We will package those stories for the media to get that message out to other people to motivate them.
Phase 2 of the advertising campaign will encourage people to "know your number". The public relations campaign will become very necessary at that point because it will elaborate on that concept. The number or solution for each person will be different, as there is not a single solution. The public relations will explain that to people and ensure they understand it. Throughout the campaign, we will have our own spokespeople for radio and television interviews and they will demystify the issues and explain the challenge in layman's language, which is very important, so that everyone understands it. We also plan to bring national, local and trade media on study tours in Ireland to show them how climate change will impact here. This will help to dispel doubts about how or if climate change will affect Ireland. We are also thinking of media study tours to show how other countries are facing the challenges that climate change presents for various sectors. We are utilising all of the media available to us, including traditional media such as television, national and local radio and press as well as new media, podcasts and social networking sites. We also have an information telephone service, an e-mail information service and an effective website to back up the campaign. We know from experience that our integrated approach of public relations, advertising and stakeholder engagement gives the added value that will be needed to encourage people to change their behaviour for this campaign.
Mr. Conor Ó Raghallaigh
That was a general overview of the campaign. We forwarded PowerPoint slides to give committee members an idea of the look of the campaign. Mr. McCaughey will refer to the thinking behind this.
Mr. Pearse McCaughey
The campaign aims to bring home that is not only a global issue but a national and local issue. Our slogan is, Change Your World, Change the World. This has done well in research. People have made the connection that the prominence of Ireland on the map shows how big an issue this is. Underneath the logo "change" it states: "Ireland's plan of action on climate change." In phase 1 of the campaign we will try to bring this thought to people as much as possible. In the next slide, I have laid out how it might look in various media such as transport media and 48 sheet posters which people will see out and about as they move about living their lives. We will be hard to miss in the initial period on television with that statement. The tag underneath the headline will be www.change.ie. The next slide contains two sample pages, which are very much a work in progress, of the website. Our logo features heavily at the top.
On the next one, we will have the most important aspect of the campaign, the carbon calculator, which will allow people to feed in information to obtain a reading of their carbon count. They will come away from that with a carbon number. Not only that, they will receive a number of suggestions as to how they might modify their behaviour in terms of how they live, work and travel. It is interesting that this will allow a great element of participation and it is not only a Government issue or announcement. It will allow people to make something of it that is their own. They might visit the website out of curiosity just to see what is their number. If somebody would like to make a quick calculation, he or she can do so or he or she can delve deeper into what is their carbon number and how it works for his or her family.
I welcome the various strands of the campaign. I am long enough around to know that advertising, public relations and communications strategies have an enormous appetite and gobble up resources. There would not be as many of them in the world if that were not the reality. What is the cost of the campaign? Reference was made to best practice internationally. Which countries have adopted a similar campaign? What strategies is the campaign adopting that were successful in other jurisdictions? What trials runs, testing and research have been conducted to enable the group to reach its conclusions? How long will the campaign last?
It will only be successful if people find it means something in their pockets. If behavioural change in an employer or an individual means their bottom line financially will yield a dividend and if the campaign is to be couched in those terms and can resonate with people in practice by resulting in savings, it will be very successful.I strongly advise that this should be the direction of the campaign. Perhaps the delegation has already decided to do this. What this means for individual citizens in terms of reward will motivate behavioural change at the end of the day. While political people are becoming more aware, educated and informed about the challenges globally, citizens are not engaged in this way. For what length of time must one sustain a campaign to get the message through that this is important for the country, our people and their communities?
I welcome the delegation and wish them well. This is important work. The campaign emphasises the need for individuals to take charge; it is an important point. I hope the campaign is successful. It has been stated that people follow example. It is slightly ironic that the delegation is here a week after Ministers in ever-increasing numbers left to travel the globe accompanied by legions of civil servants. There is no question of their being required to set good example despite the fact that this is a Government campaign. Unless the Government adopts a clear and consistent approach on this there is a real risk that the good messages sent out from this group will be undermined to the point where people will become cynical. The Government needs to take this matter seriously.
This type of campaign is also at risk of being used for political purposes though I hope that will not happen. I support the campaign and hope to do so into the future. The fact that the Chairman of this committee was not invited to the launch of the campaign says a great deal. I do not know who made that decision, but it was a damned stupid one. It again makes one question the approach being taken in respect of this campaign. Climate change must be central in everybody's life, be they in the public or private sector or at home. A great deal of thought has been put into this campaign and anything that makes the connection for people is to be welcomed.
NGOs working in this area have found that much depends on how the message is delivered. Often, a message can be so overwhelming that people believe they can do nothing to help or it is so complex and boring that people switch off. I am interested to hear what type of evaluation of the system is in place. We all understand this is hit and miss in that we may or may not get this right. It is not that we all know what we are at anyway, but I believe an evaluation process, in-built from day one, is absolutely vital. I am interested to hear the delegation's response in this regard.
High targets have been set for the public sector. I am interested to know how far the delegation can go in assisting in the achievement of those targets. It appears much will depend on funding and grant aid. Issues such as the hospital with a high oil bill resulting from poor insulation and the school located in a substandard prefab are ones with which no authority within the public sector can cope regardless of how willing they are. I am not sure how far we can go in this regard.
I wish the delegation well with this important initiative. I hope that at the end of the day it will be supported by Government in an appropriate fashion at every stage. If this does not happen, regardless of how much good one does, it will not work. I too am curious about the budget and staff numbers. How is the group structured? I presume it is a unit within the Department which is using contractors and so on. Perhaps the delegation will elaborate on that point. I wish the delegation well.
I join my colleagues in wishing the delegation well. I do not believe they would be here if Government intent and support were not available.
What type of research has been done to underpin the campaign? Like Deputy Hogan I, too, believe Joe public does not understand climate change or believe it will impact on him. Many people switch off from this type of campaign and do not realise it will affect their lifestyles or that they have a role to play in terms of changing their behaviour. What type of research has been done of people's perception of this issue?
The issue of carbon numbers was raised. Do people know what this means? Will visiting the website and filling out the required information be a novelty factor? How will behaviour be tracked and how will people be incentivised and encouraged to revisit the site later? On the roll-out of the campaign, I can foresee pictures in the newspapers of buses spewing out emissions. Will the delegation be very strict in terms of who they advertise with? Will they ensure that those accepting payment from them practice what they preach in terms of their behaviour as companies, be it through outdoor advertising, newspapers or other means? Will these companies be required to sign up to the campaign?
The most successful environmental programme of which I am aware is the green schools programme. It is the campaign for which I hold out the greatest hope. Children are returning from school and informing their parents or guardians how things should be done. Will this campaign impact with schools, in particular at national level and lower secondary level or will it dovetail in with the green schools campaign?
Perhaps the delegation will provide for us a breakdown of the budget in terms of PR, advertising, stakeholders and management fees. I wish the campaign well.
I welcome the delegation and wish them well with the challenge they are facing. I wish first to make a couple of blunt comments. I believe the imagery is too bland. I am not expert in PR and I presume the delegation has obtained input from many experts. In my experience, people respond to a number of things, namely, clear, strong messages and being penalised for not responding or rewarded for doing so. The experience of people changing out of conscience is not particularly strong even though it is becoming a factor now, as Deputy Calleary pointed out, in terms of the schools programmes in place. In many cases, teenagers know a great deal more about climate change than their parents and as such they may recognise the campaign.
The campaign needs to be linked with Government policy that leads by example. The obvious irony is the pictures shown to us of imagery depicted on the side of a bus, given that only six buses in Ireland have bio-fuel content in their fuel tanks. All these buses are tourist buses. The campaign will be ridiculed if it rolls out this type of advertisement on buses that run on diesel or petrol, emitting fumes from the back. People are understandably cynical about Government-sponsored PR campaigns. This is probably a genuine effort to get people to review their contribution towards climate change and will go some way towards addressing the concern expressed so often with regard to what one individual or Ireland can do as small players, particularly when it is felt that China, India and large countries like the US cause the problems and it is they who need to buy into Kyoto. This campaign will focus people's attention on what they can do. I agree it is only a small contribution, but it is significant.
My concern is that we will have a big-budget, slick PR advertising campaign, but it will not have the necessary reinforcement to bring about change. Take, for example, the plastic bag levy. We spent years asking people not to throw plastic bags in ditches, but it was only when a cost was imposed, small as it was, that we had a dramatic change in attitude towards the use of plastic bags. One of the messages we need to get across is that there is a cost on carbon and its production and it is only a matter of time before we must pay that cost. It is only a matter of time before we have a carbon tax here. One could argue we already have a carbon tax in terms of having to buy carbon credits to make up for not meeting targets.
What can the delegation do to convince us of the need for the campaign? This question may be somewhat unfair, because the representatives are not politicians. The role of this committee is concerned with sending out the right messages and providing leadership from Government on the issues. For example, when we ask somebody to improve heating efficiency in their home, they may turn around and ask what percentage of the electricity bill of the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources is driven by renewable resources. If it is 3% or 4%, they may suggest it is about time Government gave some leadership on the issue.
I welcome this programme and look forward to hearing a breakdown of the budget and the length of time it is proposed to continue the campaign. Will it be a short, sharp campaign or is it something that will continue in association with the Government for the next decade? I like the idea of the challenge and the use of numbers because when people realise that the production of carbon costs something, they will start being concerned about their carbon footprint. Until that happens, this will be seen as a general, green issue that has no real concern for people's everyday lives.
We are gaining more understanding of the issues with every meeting we have, but the majority of people, including those working for Government agencies, like Dublin Bus and Bus Éireann, still see the issue as an irritant more than one that requires change.
We will now take the responses to the four Deputies who have put their questions.
Mr. Conor Ó Raghallaigh
I will try to deal with the issues raised, but may not cover them in the order they were asked and will link some of the questions. It would be useful not to look at the campaign in isolation from what is happening elsewhere in terms of the national climate change strategy or the programme for Government. The campaign is a communications arm of those initiatives.
With regard to the effectiveness of the campaign, I accept that we can only persuade people to make changes out of altruism and that this will only be effective to a certain extent. At another level, the harder policy-based or fiscal measures will be more effective. However, through communications we can explain to people why change is necessary and this may facilitate more timely introduction of policy or more informed policy debate on issues.
With regard to the resources for the campaign, the overall contract with the project team is for €12.5 million, exclusive of VAT, for the first two years. Deputy Hogan pointed out that advertising is an expensive game. One element of the campaign is advertisement based, which will use up resources. The other element, possibly the main plank of the campaign, is the stakeholder engagement aspect, which was mentioned by Ms Arnett. That element is labour intensive and involves meeting and sitting down with hundreds of thousands of people over the course of the campaign to talk about their situations and try to build a programme that addresses what climate change means for them, in terms of mitigation and, ultimately, adaptation. Much of the funding will be used in that area.
Deputy McManus asked about the overall team or the numbers involved. As far as the Department is concerned, my section has three full-time staff and one job sharer, but climate change is not the only issue with which we are concerned. However, the project team brings many more people together. I am not sure of the overall number, but we have expertise in the area of PR, building a carbon calculator and putting the website together and in terms of the stakeholder side. The full complement is probably from 30 to 40 people, but not all are working full-time on the issue.
On the duration of the campaign, our working premise is that the campaign will last at least five years. Therefore, it will run in parallel with the climate change strategy, which runs until the end of the Kyoto period. Our contract with the project team is for the first two years, but we have included a clause allowing it to be renewed on an annual basis up to the full five years. If we feel we need to return to the market after two years, we can do that either.
The issues of measurement and evaluation were raised. Much research went into the campaign before it got as far as our Department. Through the tender process we obtained well thought out, well researched and well considered proposals from six different consortia. Before it came to us, the selected consortium had done much research in terms of people's awareness on climate change, their position and their attitudes towards policy measures on it. Since engaging the consortium, we have also carried out our own baseline measurements. We conducted some research before Christmas with regard to attitudes to climate change and whether people accept the generally accepted science that it is caused by anthropogenic emissions, is happening and impacts on Ireland. We also asked some questions about leadership, whether people expected the Government to show leadership on the issue and to explain the implications climate change would have for Ireland. We asked how they could address their emissions. My recollection is that 95% or 96% of people expect the Government to show leadership on the issue and to explain clearly what climate change means for Ireland and its people.
This week, we are also undertaking comprehensive baseline research, which will be the starting point against which we will measure the effectiveness of the campaign at intervals. We will judge the general understanding of climate change, not just at surface level but more deeply, to see the depth of people's understanding, their acceptance of the need for Government policies to address the issue, their attitudes and behaviour. We will try to discover the actions they have taken to address the issue. We will build up baseline data against which we can measure the success and effectiveness of the campaign.
The PR will be monitored; there are standard ways for public relations coverage to be monitored in terms of the amount of coverage it receives in the various media. There will also be an independent audit of the PR on an annual basis. On-line is far easier to measure in some ways in that one can keep a very detailed account of who logs on to any website or the carbon calculator tool, the length of time of a stay, the areas visited and whether there are return visits to the site. In answer to Deputy Calleary's question, we will be looking at whether there is an initial interest in this carbon calculator or carbon counter, whether they know one's number and whether there are return visits. We will be keeping a very close eye on this. Various metrics are listed such as web analysis. I will not go into them here but I would be willing to share the information with the committee if that is required.
I will ask Ms Arnett to reply to the question about stakeholder engagement and how the measurement will be taken.
Ms Elizabeth Arnett
The initial round of stakeholder engagement activities is very top level with strategic stakeholders. We are trying to gain an appreciation of the types of activities, if any, that each sector is undertaking and their attitudes and trying to identify the barriers they have to taking on a programme for change that would look at reducing greenhouse gas emissions in energy and transport. This is our first round of activities. We have held discussions with a couple of hundred stakeholders at this stage from a wide range of different sectors, to try to benchmark where the sectors are at. We will be judging ourselves on the quality and the types of initiatives that come forward with the partnerships we are developing with the different stakeholders. An example of one of the initiatives is the development of a carbon management tool for industry. This will help all types of complicated organisations such as a large company or a university, organisations with different activities, to capture and manage the data relating to their own greenhouse gas emissions. We will be developing this on-line tool in partnership with the stakeholders whom we hope will be using it. We have had a fantastic response already from some large industry bodies which are prepared to work with us to develop the tool so that they can ultimately use it. This type of feedback and third party endorsement and support for the campaign is something we will be benchmarking and monitoring as we go forward. We will repeat the exercise in a year's time, looking at whether we have moved the sectors on and what sort of activities they are engaging in. We will be able to clearly assess and monitor who is using the carbon management tool and what sort of activities they have signed up to. We will also be looking at the hard data, the scientific data, with regard to greenhouse gas emissions which the EPA will be collating. It will be very difficult, in fact impossible, to ascertain what specific actions as part of the campaign or part of the programme for Government will actually reduce greenhouse gas emissions but we have to account for ourselves on that score and keep an eye on the hard data coming out of the EPA, to see if we can use the messages for the campaign.
I will touch on a point made by Deputy Coveney about the follow through. He made a very good point that we see slick advertising and PR campaigns which often do not have follow through. The follow through as the Deputy describes it is what I would see as the stakeholder engagement. This is where we really start engaging with people to see a sustained programme for change within all of the sectors. In addition to one sitting at home watching the advertising on TV or seeing it on the street on the ambient media, as described by Mr. Pearse McCaughey, one must also see change in one's workplace or sports club or in one's children's school. This would be the beginning of joined-up thinking with regard to all the activities. This follow through is the added value of the stakeholder engagement and what we envisage will bring about the real sustained change in behaviour throughout all the different sectors we will be engaging with.
Mr. Conor Ó Raghallaigh
Deputy Calleary referred to the green school campaign. I agree with the Deputy that the green school campaign is probably the most effective environmental education scheme anywhere in Europe. It is particularly successful in Ireland. We are working closely with green schools on this scheme. We do not want to go in and replicate what they are very successfully doing because I do not think we would be as successful as they are. The green schools programme is completely climate-related. They started with waste but now they are also looking at energy, water and transport and it is growing into a green homes scheme which the EPA is also funding. This is bringing that knowledge back into the houses. We want to work with them on this project and we have provided money to An Taisce to try to develop the climate change aspect of that project. This campaign is a contribution to the green school campaign and we will be working with them over the period of this campaign.
Deputy Hogan also raised the issue of international best practice. Our campaigns have not been replicated exactly in any other country of which I am aware. A number of elements have been used, for example, in Canada where the one tonne challenge campaign was focused on the individual and on the reduction of the individual's carbon footprint. In one way our carbon calculator and the know your number element of this campaign will reflect that approach. The nearest in terms of the stakeholder engagement would be the UK's Carbon Trust which is working with the different sectors and trying to implement change and behavioural change at the various levels. Those are the two closest campaigns. We are all more or less at the same stage in this process within the European Union. I am a member of a network of environmental communications practitioners. We try to swap information about best practice and I will be telling them about our campaign the next time we meet.
Deputy McManus raised the issue of the public sector and this will be a huge focus of our campaign. The targets set out in the climate change strategy and the energy White Paper are very demanding. We are all on a learning curve on this throughout the various sectors and the various elements of Irish society.
Deputy Coveney raised a valid point that people will turn around to the Government and ask what it was doing and how are the Ministers travelling and this is relevant. There are very few of us without sin with regard to the issue of climate change or our own emissions or practices. We are all on a learning curve together. One of the aspects that came across in our research about the approach we should take on this campaign is that people do not want to be lectured about climate change or about their own behaviour but they do want to understand the issues and they want to be helped to make changes where they see that change makes sense. This is the approach we are taking but there is much work to be done in the public sector and the private sector and at individual level. It is hoped we will all be moving together in parallel and this is what we are hoping to achieve.
What about using the buses?
Mr. Conor Ó Raghallaigh
In a way it goes back to who we could use who is totally blameless or flawless. Much of the solution to the transport issue is to move towards public transport and the support of public transport. Buses are not perfect but they might be better than cars.
I welcome the delegation. Much of the ground has been covered in the questions and answers. Regarding stakeholders, I did not see adequate attention for local authorities. I would like to see a presentation given to every council throughout the country. It is fine to come to an Oireachtas committee meeting, but if it is presented to council meetings it will get significant local publicity, which would capture the stakeholders and create good PR. I suggest that needs to be done.
I want to follow up on green schools. We should not attempt to replicate it because the system is working well. However, they need to be brought more into the system. We need to move to the equivalent of a green workplace. The children do that at school. While the children are practising it at school most adults spend their time in the workplace. I suspect in a commercial, office or other workplace environment, if an employer saw his electricity bill reduced by 10% and he saved €100,000, there should be some way for the employer to spread the benefit among the people who helped contribute to that. Maybe there should be a scheme whereby if companies could make improvements to save energy, that could be passed on to the people who participate in the scheme. There could be a financial benefit. I do not fully subscribe to the idea that we only do things if there is a financial reward. However, financial rewards also work.
It is called profit sharing.
That is correct. Regarding advertising, I hope there will be a youth campaign. What appeals to a teenager is not what appeals to us. When driving in a car with our teenage children we do not want to listen to the same music. They do not want to look at the advertisements we look at. They do not even want to read the newspapers we read.
They do not even want to be with us.
That is also right. At what age group is the campaign directed? There is a different market for the afternoon television audience, where older people are at home, versus the youth market. In Ireland we seem to be very slow to advertise on the Sky networks. They all have an Irish section of advertising, including Sky, MTV, Nickelodeon or whatever the youngsters watch. There seems to be an unwillingness to invest in these as we believe we are advertising somewhere else. However, young people are watching all these channels.
I will be a little bit insulting to the Power of One advertisement. I saw that advertisement about 20 times and had no concept of what it was about. It may have been very specific to the people who dreamt it up, but it took a long time for me to realise that it was about turning off the switch. It is possible to be too subtle. As Deputy Coveney said, people are busy and are not always as subtle as we think they are. Sometimes it is necessary to tell them straight.
I also thank the deputation for four short and to-the-point presentations. We have all agreed that we are coming from a position whereby the public are aware of climate change but do not believe it affects them just yet. The best way to get people to change their ways is to let them know it will save them money.
Regarding the calculator, will we set a national average above or below which people will be measured? In any event will we have a link system indicating it is Government policy to insulate homes to reduce carbon footprint and following from that bring people through the steps to reduce that by giving them a national target and an individual target. While it may not be the remit of the witnesses, they would glean much information especially from the stakeholders. The stakeholders will also identify weaknesses or shortcomings in Government policy. I am thinking about the disposal of waste and how we have a waste policy, or renewable conversions within big organisations. Will the witnesses be in a position to feed that back into the Cabinet sub-committee with a view to informing Government policy as it might evolve over the five-year term?
When we are talking about diesel and petrol used in buses, we should go to Cork and take an environmentally friendly bus from there to use here in Dublin. We should not put this kind of advertising on diesel buses in Dublin because they are disastrous. It would be very cynical and short-sighted to do so. I compliment the Department on establishing this group, which is a national body. However, we must not lose sight of the local organisations. The local authorities are very important and their meetings are covered by the local press.
Rather than having Guinness or Bank of Ireland sponsoring the GAA championships, could we have something to do with climate change? Could the Department sponsor the Kerry or Cork GAA teams? That would raise the profile of climate change and people would talk about it.
All educational establishments from primary to third level should be targeted. What happens in the schools is discussed in the homes. Is it intended to run competitions with schools, sports clubs or other organisations to raise the profile at county or national level? It is all about perception and people talking about it. Interaction with people would be much better than putting it on the buses.
I welcome the campaign and wish it well. It is an impressive campaign and considerable resources will be dedicated to it, with €12.5 million allocated over the first two years. While we have the financial cost, do we have the carbon cost of the campaign? There is a move internationally to give very crisp and clear figures on the carbon cost of any particular initiative. Has the campaign been audited in advance and, if so, what is the figure?
Regarding measuring success, the witnesses spoke about hits on a website. In a sense any campaign with an associated website will have tens of thousands or even millions of hits. Are there clear parameters by which the success of the campaign will be measured? For instance are there baseline data on awareness now and will this be measured after three months to identify changes people have made? I would be interested in finding out more about that.
There has been some interesting movement in recent months. I note that the Vatican recently referred to carbon crimes. In a sense there are many ways of effecting behaviour change and using one's religion is one aspect of that. Will the Department be playing the angel and devil in all this? Will it highlight positive changes that can be made and point out negative choices that should not be made? In many areas of our lives we have no choice. For instance, will it gently admonish parents driving children to school along a bus route in an SUV? How far will it go along that road?
I welcome the use of buses as an advertising medium. As the carbon footprint of a bus passenger is at least one tenth that of a car driver, I am sure buses will be used. Unlike the former leader of Fine Gael, who in recent days has expressed his opposition to the introduction of quality bus corridors in Limerick, I am sure those involved in the campaign will be emphasising the positive role of buses.
Will the campaign engage with the agricultural sector to encourage those working in that area to measure the carbon content of their businesses, which in many cases go back hundreds of years? This is a delicate issue. I encourage the campaign to pursue such a strategy. As the Minister said the other day, we need to deal with cars and cows. It is important to give people the tools to calculate the carbon content of their livelihoods. I hope the climate change communications campaign will do that. I wish those involved in it every success.
I welcome the delegation. I do not wish to repeat what has been said by other members. I will not come up with anything new. I would like to add my voice to the welcome that has been extended to the officials from the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. I agree with them that we face a challenge in this regard.
I have listened to several presentations of this nature since I became a member of this committee. I learn more every time I attend one of these meetings. The most important challenge we face is to maximise national participation in tackling climate change. Every individual has a responsibility in this respect. We should not argue that this is a matter for conglomerates and big business, rather than the little people. Public relations campaigns like the climate change communications campaign should emphasise the duty of everyone to take action. Everything we do, every day of our lives, should be aimed at reducing this country's carbon footprint. That is where the campaign has to go. Everyone carries a share of the responsibility.
I was delighted to learn of the development of the Know Your Number initiative, which I had never thought of. One will be able to go on the website to access a number that indicates the extent to which one is participating in the creation of carbon emissions, why one is doing so and what one can do to help the situation. It is a work in progress. I wish those involved in the climate change communications campaign the best of luck.
Education has been mentioned by everyone who has spoken. As we get older, we tend to become set in our ways. People who have lived their lives in a certain way do not want to change. When our children and grandchildren come home from school, however, they tell us what their teachers have said about what we should be doing. Education is very important, particularly at primary level. We listen to our children and grandchildren and learn from them. When we are driving in our cars, we are told we should not be doing this and that.
Do they listen to us?
They tell us not to drop litter, for example. Education is very important. We need to incentivise people to change their behaviour. If people have an incentive, they will take the initiative and show some responsibility. When people know they are creating problems, they participate in the process of change. We all like to contribute in some way. We need to consider how to inform people of the aims which underpin our policies.
I wish the climate change communications campaign well. It will cost €12.5 million over the next two years which is a great deal of money. I do not know how much it will cost over the five years it will last. What is the benchmark for its operation? How will its success in each year be measured? How will we know what is being gained? I wish the campaign every success.
One of the most powerful pieces of advertising I have come across relates to the need to raise money to alleviate poverty in the Third World. The results of the advertisement are evident. Representatives of Trócaire will be present for the second part of this meeting. The manner in which people responded to the advertisement, by donating cash and taking up this issue, was amazing. Other advertisements have not yet linked climate change with what is happening in the Third World. We need to make people aware of the link between the lack of water in many countries, for example, and climate change. Changes in weather patterns are leading to excessive heat in the Third World. Climate change is forcing children and women with kids to walk many miles to get water. One has to get the idea of climate change into people's minds before one starts to spend a great deal of money on advertisements making the case for the use of public transport or a different type of fuel. The most powerful thing advertisers can do is give examples of the change that is taking place in the world.
That millions of euro were collected on foot of the appeals made in the advertising campaign that focused on the Third World speaks volumes about the campaign's success. We will know whether the climate change communications campaign is working when we check whether the targets are being met at the end of each of the first three years. This is not an academic exercise — it is about taxpayers putting their hands in their pockets to buy carbon credits in the absence of any change in behaviour. We need to issue advertisements telling people they will have to put their hands in their pockets to buy carbon credits if they do not change their behaviour. As Deputy Coveney said, we have to remind people that climate change will cost them money. If one leaves the tap on, water will become scarce and eventually one will have to pay for it. It is all linked to climate change. That is my tuppence worth. The powerful advertising campaign aimed at raising awareness of the problems in the Third World, which really hit home with people and made them feel guilty, came into my mind when other members were speaking.
Mr. Conor Ó Raghallaigh
The Chairman's point is well made. I am sure the other delegations which have made presentations to the committee have made similar points. The most vulnerable people in the poorest countries in the world are the initial victims of climate change. People who are already living on the margins are the first in line when the adverse impacts of climate change start to be felt.
Local authorities will be key partners in this regard. They have a great deal of influence on what happens in local areas. The operations of local authorities tend to have a fairly big carbon footprint. Not only are they significant landlords, but they also have their own facilities and offices. All these things will need to be considered as part of a new and different way of thinking in the realm of carbon consciousness. The Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government will work closely with local authorities. The campaign will probably try to focus on one or two aspects of this issue. The Race against Waste campaign worked with a number of local authorities on the compilation of a highly successful programme of implementation of waste management strategies in the authorities' areas of responsibility. The Department worked with the RPS Group and Mary Murphy Associates on the campaign. I ask my colleague, Ms Arnett, to respond to Deputy Fleming, who made the case for the introduction of a youth campaign.
Ms Elizabeth Arnett
The point about the green schools campaign was very well made. The lessons we have learned from the green schools model are relevant to other sectors, such as the business sector. We do not want to replicate the green schools programme — we want to support it. We want to look at other aspects of education. We are in discussions with St. Patrick's teacher training college about the development of a module that will help those who are training to be primary school teachers to teach children about climate change issues. We hope to give trainee teachers an understanding of the issues, and the language used to describe the issues, so that they will be confident in their role of increasing carbon literacy.
Similarly, we have been invited to get involved in third level courses on climate change, specifically to explain how the issue is relevant. People in the United States have started to refer to "green-collar workers", which is something we should start to do here. We will take a strategic view of the campaign. We will teach courses on climate change in third level colleges. We will run a transition year programme. We have had discussions with transition year co-ordinators about the development of support materials to help transition year students to assess their schools' carbon footprints. We will run a competition on this and judge the entrants on the basis of the sustainability of their projects. We will ask whether improvements will be sustained for many years. We will also work with universities, on the education side and in respect of facilities management. I referred to the carbon management tool. UCD has upwards of 20,000 students using its facilities and this creates an enormous carbon footprint in itself. Therefore, considering the management of the facilities with a view to reducing greenhouse gas emissions will be very much part of the campaign.
Mr. Ó Raghallaigh touched on the local authority campaigns. Dublin City Council recently produced a climate change strategy and, as part of the campaign, we reviewed this and participated in the council's consultation process. We will develop guidelines for other local authorities to produce similar documents. Just as we examined local authority activities, we need to consider their facilities and associated carbon footprint and determine how we help local authorities manage this. First, they must understand where they are having an impact and then be helped to manage this. We would like local authorities to run a Know Your Number campaign for their staff. Dublin City Council has 6,000 staff members and we would therefore like to see awareness at individual level as well as collectively.
We can tie this into the examination of sports clubs. GAA sponsorship was mentioned and in this regard we would like the Know Your Number campaign to foster healthy rivalry between counties and towns, or tidy towns, in respect of how many people within their respective catchment areas know their number. The possibilities in this regard are quite extensive. We could examine the GAA, for example, and determine whether we could help all the clubs to understand the carbon footprint of their facilities. Equally, we could also ask if all its members know their number and whether they have participated in the campaign. It is in this respect that stakeholder engagement will be very important in encouraging all sectors to become involved with and use the tools of the campaign.
Mr. Conor Ó Raghallaigh
To return to a few of the other issues, Deputy Cuffe asked whether we would engage with the agriculture sector. We will engage will all the major sectors that have an impact on the climate. Obviously, agriculture is responsible for a significant proportion of Ireland's emissions. It would be fair to state the sector probably regards climate change policy with a certain amount of trepidation, but there are a number of opportunities for it in terms of mitigation policy. Examples include bio-fuels and the fostering of a more climate-savvy consumer base. One issue that arises is the desirability of eating locally produced foods as opposed to eating food that has incurred many food miles. Opportunities exist in this regard for the agriculture sector. Mitigation opportunities in the area of manure management and fertiliser use could help reduce costs. We would like to explore these issues with the agriculture sector. Forestry provides a mitigation option for landowners.
We have had several meetings with the IFA and Teagasc. Who else have we met?
Ms Elizabeth Arnett
Coillte, Teagasc, COFORD, Bord Bia and the major farming organisations.
Mr. Conor Ó Raghallaigh
Deputy Doyle asked whether this would inform national policy. It will and all the stakeholder engagements will afford an opportunity to the various sectors to tell the campaigners what they think about the campaign and outline the difficulties they have with Government policy. We will put in place a mechanism to make these views known to policymakers within the relevant Department.
On the carbon calculators, Deputy Doyle asked whether there will be a national average. We have been teasing this out among ourselves. If a national average is advertised and we are below the average, do we walk away and say we are not the worst and our country is doing its bit? We are thinking about this. We might say domestic output is average and that it is above average in respect of travel and transport. There will always be an aspect of life where we can do better. We hope to engage people and keep them challenged and focused on reducing their carbon footprints.
Deputy Doyle asked whether there will be a link on the website to grant schemes and tips on how one can improve. This will be an integral part of the system. Once we give the number, we can analyse output and give tips on how to improve. We will provide links for other State agencies that may be able to assist in insulating a person's house, for example.
Ms Elizabeth Arnett
We are very conscious of the carbon footprint of the campaign and are working on a methodology to record the carbon cost with a view to managing the carbon output. We hope to see this methodology developed further as part of a green procurement or sustainable procurement-type drive that we would like implemented in the public sector. Thus, if one knew the financial cost of a project, one would have the tools to capture the data on the carbon cost. The first step is to identify or capture the data. Once one understands where the emissions are coming from, the solutions will follow suit. We are currently putting the methodology together as part of the carbon management tool.
Mr. Conor Ó Raghallaigh
On the Chairman's point, we could try to put across the idea that, since 1 January, we have been living in a carbon-constrained economy. Every tonne of emissions counts and has a cost for society, in one way or another. It is a zero sum game. At present, only some sectors incur a direct cost, such as the emissions trading sector. The rest are paying through the general Exchequer. The effectiveness of the campaign will ultimately be evidenced in a reduction in emissions on foot of people changing their behaviour. This will have a monetary pay-off if done within the Kyoto period for the target in question and if it is done before 2020. I refer to whatever target we end up with from the energy and climate package that will contribute towards lowering external demand for the Government to purchase emission credits.
I have two points, in respect of which I know I am nitpicking. The first concerns the link between the campaign slogans and the website address. Most individuals will familiarise themselves with the campaign through the website. I do not know whether the information provided to me is just a sample but the website needs to be called either "www.change.ie" or "www.changenow.ie".
Mr. Pearse McCaughey
We just got the URL and the website has been called www.change.ie. The Deputy is looking at an old version.
My other point concerns the fact that the title of the campaign is "Ireland's Plan of Action on Climate Change". It is not a climate change action plan but a publicity campaign raising awareness of climate change and what can be done about. I am not stating the wording should be changed but that the website should link very strongly with the White Paper on energy or the national climate change strategy so those seeking to know Ireland's plan of action on climate change would regard the site not just as a means of calculating one's number.
Significant numbers are likely to access the website but it may be the only time they ever engage in the climate change debate. The advertising campaign is effective and slick and it should succeed in making people curious. It is important to grab users' attention on the one occasion they access the site. They should not be faced with a disappointing website that allows them only to calculate their personal carbon number. Some people will do that but many others may not have the time to do so. The website must grab users' attention in outlining what the State is doing, what citizens need to do, the relevant figures and so on. If it is advertised as Ireland's plan of action on climate change, there must be an element of that even if it is dealt with it in a fairly general way. People will not access the website a second time to view the national climate change strategy.
The Department should consider taking a step back in terms of the entire campaign. Ms Arnett mentioned the programme on carbon literacy in the teacher training colleges. This points to the main problem with the campaign in that it does not deploy the English language. When it comes to the climate change debate, it seems there is a new language we all must learn. Why does the campaign not employ everyday words? If one were to stand on O'Connell Street this evening and ask 1,000 people the meaning of such terms as carbon footprint, carbon credits and CO2 emissions, most would be unable to offer the correct responses. Even some of us on this committee are only catching up on these terms. I first heard the phrase "carbon footprint" some 12 months ago. I am sure 95% of the public could not explain the concept.
The reason some of the awareness campaigns may not have the desired impact is that we have gone too far ahead of the public. We have not explained the language. It is a significant difficulty that the terminology employed in the debate is so unfamiliar to most people that teachers have to be taught the language. The Department should go back to basics. In the first instance, the advertising campaign should explain the terminology before attempting anything else. People's interest will be lost otherwise. If a person does not understand what a carbon footprint is, he or she will simply switch off from the campaign. I ask the delegates to be conscious of this.
I could not agree more with Deputy Fleming. When this committee was established, many of us were dealing with the issue for the first time. We had to ask people to explain certain terms and concepts to us. Our objective is to encourage debate on climate change. However, many people may be too embarrassed even to ask what a carbon footprint is. They might say to themselves they will look it up but where does one go to do that? The Department might consider undertaking a short campaign to explain such concepts as carbon footprint and so on. People involved in this area are getting into the habit of using language that the ordinary person does not understand.
Mr. Conor Ó Raghallaigh
That point is well made.
There should be a campaign to explain what these phenomena mean for all of us, such as water and food shortages, a dangerously heating planet, and more severe weather, including floods and gales. Those who attended Cheltenham last week understood what climate change was about when a race meeting had to be postponed because of exceptionally high winds. This is all part and parcel of climate change.
Now that we are heading towards the calculation of individual carbon numbers, does the Department foresee a day when individuals will be assigned a personal carbon quota beyond which one will be obliged to pay a personal carbon tax?
Deputy Aylward should not give anybody those types of ideas.
Is that the way we are headed?
Mr. Conor Ó Raghallaigh
That is more a question for the Minister, who appeared before the committee two weeks ago.
Part of the work of this committee will be to review the targets set. I will invite Ministers back regularly to update us on progress and developments within their Departments. Likewise, I intend to invite Mr. Ó Raghallaigh to attend a future meeting to update us on how the campaign is going. This discussion does not represent the end of the road. We look forward to meeting Mr. Ó Raghallaigh again in due course. In the meantime, if he has any information or advice for the committee, he should contact the clerk and we will be pleased to follow up on that.
Mr. Conor Ó Raghallaigh
That is great.