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JOINT COMMITTEE ON COMMUNICATIONS, ENERGY AND NATURAL RESOURCES debate -
Wednesday, 2 Apr 2008

Fuel Prices: Discussion with AA Ireland.

I welcome Mr. Conor Faughnan from AA Ireland. The joint committee has invited the representatives to this meeting to discuss pricing differentials between diesel and petrol. Before we begin, I draw everybody's attention to the fact that members of this committee have absolute privilege, but this same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. The committee cannot guarantee any level of privilege to witnesses appearing before it. Furthermore, under the salient rulings of the Chair members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Mr. Faughnan, thank you for appearing before the meeting at short notice. The issue was raised by Deputy McManus and the committee believed it merited further consideration. It could be seen as a consumer issue but it involves energy, which is part of the committee's remit. You may make your opening remarks, after which I will invite you to take questions from members.

Mr. Conor Faughnan

I thank the committee for the chance to speak on what is, by any definition, a somewhat unusual day in the Oireachtas. I represent AA Ireland, which is the country's oldest and largest motoring organisation, providing motoring services to a membership that now exceeds 400,000. We also play an advocacy role and always have done. We seek to influence public policy on matters that affect motorists and to give a voice to ordinary car users on subjects such as public transport, road safety, motoring consumer issues, motoring taxation and the environment.

Among other things, AA Ireland monitors the retail price of petrol and diesel in Ireland monthly and has done so ever since price controls were lifted in October 1991. We do this in a simple way. By using a combination of our nationwide rescue fleet and telephone surveying we obtain prices from a statistically significant number of service stations around the country during the second week of each month. Those figures are then used to generate an average price for the fuels, which we publish, and over time this provides a definitive index of fuel price movements. That index is relied upon by commentators and industry analysts.

There is a fair amount of detail in any analysis of how petrol and diesel prices are arrived at. There are three main factors, all of which are outside Ireland's control. These are the international price of crude oil, the exchange rate between the euro and the US dollar, and the price of gasoline and auto diesel when brokered on world markets as commodities in their own right. While we do not claim to have a depth of knowledge as to how the international currency and commodities markets work, we know from years of empirical observation that there are clear patterns to be seen. All other things being equal, when the price of oil rises on world markets it takes about four weeks for that rise to appear at Irish service stations. That is about the length of the supply chain. Hence, when we make predictions about what is going to happen to fuel prices we can be fairly accurate up to about a month in the future, but not beyond.

The prices of petrol and especially diesel have risen sharply in the last month. Petrol now costs an average of 120.2 cent per litre, up by 3.3 cent since February. Diesel rose more sharply by 4.7 cent per litre to an average cost of 122.2 cent in the last month. We can partly understand this, but the diesel figure is a serious concern. World oil prices are rising again and touched $111 per barrel recently before falling back. This means that there is no prospect of the cost of fuel coming down significantly for at least the next month or so. In fact, had the value of the euro not been so strong against the dollar, the effects of high oil prices would be even worse. However, we have expressed serious concern at what appears to be a disproportionate rise in diesel prices. When we last made a public statement on this issue a month ago we challenged the oil industry in Ireland to be more open in its pricing and to provide clear explanations as to where these increases originate. It should be put on record that we received an excellent degree of co-operation from the industry in our attempt to get information and to understand what is going on.

In terms of price movements, obviously both petrol and diesel derive from crude oil and one would expect the price of both fuels to move in parallel in response to oil price changes. However, there are differences. Gasoline and auto diesel are both brokered on world markets as commodities in their own right and there are seasonal variations. In the northern hemisphere winter, and especially if it is a cold winter, the relative demand for diesel increases. This is because private car driving tends to be reduced and because diesel is essentially the same as home heating oil. The opposite is also true. Brokers refer to the northern hemisphere summer as the "gasoline season" because driving mileages increase, especially in the US, and the relative price of gasoline increases in the summer. The practical effect of this is that diesel tends to be relatively cheap in summer and relatively expensive in winter. Our index of average retail prices over the years reflects that seasonal variation. The seasonal effect is usually gone by February, but this year is an anomaly in that regard. The graph in my submission clearly shows that every winter petrol and diesel prices are close, while every summer diesel is cheap.

We have a major concern from the consumer's point of view since the number of diesel cars on the road is set to increase dramatically because of the change to the CO2-based taxation system which will be a big driver of this. In Ireland at the moment only about 18% of private cars are diesel, but we expect that figure to grow rapidly as diesel cars score much better in terms of emissions. In Germany, more than half of all private cars are diesel, while in Luxembourg three-quarters of private cars are diesel. At the start of 2007, Norway made tax changes similar to ours and they have already seen sales of diesels double. Finland also has made similar changes, so right across the continent diesel is becoming the cleaner, greener fuel of choice and that trend definitely is set to continue. The worry for us is that a creep in diesel prices will affect environmentally conscious consumers. Also, the motoring consumer tends to be cynical about oil companies. There is a great deal of suspicion in the minds of ordinary motorists when it comes to how fuels are priced. Every day I get phone calls from motorists who have conspiracy theories about what the oil companies are doing. I myself have been quite cynical in the past.

In trying to analyse what has been going on, we have been looking at world fuel markets and I have spoken also to my opposite numbers in other countries. The AA is part of a pan-European and worldwide network of AA-type clubs and I have been asking that network about what has been happening in their countries. One thing is certain: the rise in diesel prices is not just an Irish phenomenon. The same is happening right across the continent. I have spoken to the clubs in Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Britain, Holland, Germany, the Czech Republic, France, Spain and elsewhere. Everyone is seeing the same thing: diesel is far more expensive, relative to petrol, than we have seen before. The question is why.

The most likely explanation begins in the United States. The US is the major consumer of petrol, accounting for more than 40% of world consumption of gasoline. In the past seven or eight months the US oil industry essentially made a strategic choice to devote a larger portion of refining capacity in the Gulf of Mexico to gasoline production relative to diesel. They take capacity gambles every year. In a sense they took a gamble, betting on high gasoline demand, but in fact that bet went the other way. Consumer demand for gasoline in the US was sharply down this winter and that has left the industry in the US with a large stock overhang of gasoline.

In the United States, it appears that gasoline inventories are at their highest levels in more than ten years, partly because the economic slowdown is denting demand. In contrast, distillate inventories, which include diesel and home heating oil, are down on last year's levels both in the US and Europe. So there is a relative shortage of diesel at European refineries and demand is running ahead of production. Figures from the Irish Petroleum Industry Association, IPIA, bear this out. Wholesale diesel prices in Europe based on international prices as of 10 March show that the base price of diesel, before all taxes and transport costs, is 57.46 cent per litre versus 44.77 cent per litre for petrol — a difference of 12.69 cent. There appears to be no sign of this pattern changing and the IPIA concludes that pump price differences of between six and seven cent per litre are likely in the near future.

It should be noted that less tax is charged on diesel than on petrol. Therefore, although diesel is more expensive to manufacture, the outturn cost is usually cheaper because of the tax differential here in Ireland. However, at the moment diesel is, relatively speaking, scarce and expensive. It is difficult to estimate for how long this will continue and I do not claim that my speculations are more valid than anyone else's. It is probably this stock overhang of gasoline that is affecting prices. With oil prices raging, although cushioned for us by the weak dollar, both fuels should be going up in price in parallel. In fact, however, only diesel is because of this global excess of petrol stocks. That does not look terribly convincing from the point of view of the motorist at an Irish service station but I do think that it is probably the true explanation.

I have had many calls from people who have been reading about oil prices moving. They arrive at the service station having just bought a diesel car to discover that, for the first time ever, diesel prices are far more expensive than petrol at a time when an increasing number of people are buying cars with diesel engines. They are putting two and two together and concluding that there is some sort of conspiracy and that the consumer is being fleeced. I do not think that is happening, however, and part of the proof is that it is not unique to Ireland. It is happening across the continent of Europe and beyond.

As to what will happen next, oil prices have fallen back a little off their €111 per barrel peak. If that does not change, my assessment would be that we are in for another month or so of static prices followed by a slight easing. Within the next two months or so the US gasoline season will begin and this should gradually use up the excess gasoline inventory. By summer, it is likely that the current anomaly will have worked its way through and we should have reverted back to the normal pattern with diesel retailing more cheaply than petrol. In the long term, the increased demand for diesel right across Europe may result in higher diesel prices overall. Pan-European policy is geared to promoting diesel use and it is inevitable that this will tend to lift prices.

That concludes my formal presentation which has been sent to the clerk by e-mail and is available to members. I will be happy to answer any queries that members of the committee might have. To put it in a nutshell, it appears that there is too much gasoline in stock in the United States. This is lowering world gasoline prices and there is a reciprocal shortage of diesel which is pushing up world diesel prices. It is happening everywhere, not just in Ireland.

I thank Mr. Faughnan for his enlightening presentation. At least we have some explanation that we did not have before he came here. Before calling on Deputy McManus to comment, I have a question. From what Mr. Faughnan has said, the situation is obviously outside our own Government's control. Perhaps nothing can be done by the Government, or is there one single thing that might assist the situation? We are conscious of the fact that many more people are buying diesel cars because of lower emissions. They are being encouraged by the Government to do that, and rightly so, but they are finding the prices much stiffer than they anticipated.

Mr. Conor Faughnan

There is one thing the Government can do — it is something that is always an option — which is to reduce the tax on diesel. The Government would make the point that there is lower tax on diesel relative to petrol anyway. I am sure it would also make the point that taxes on petrol and diesel between them contribute more than €2 billion annually to the Exchequer. I suppose it is not realistic to ask the Exchequer, particularly in this climate, to forgo a significant chunk of that revenue. However, whenever governments say there is nothing they can do, it is our role as a motoring advocacy body to point out to them that they can do something. They collect a tremendous amount of tax on diesel and if there is a genuine concern to ensure the consumer takes advantage of the incentive to buy diesel cars, then lowering diesel pump prices relative to petrol can be done by lowering diesel taxes. It is important for us as motorists and is also important for the haulage sector which is completely diesel reliant.

I thank Mr. Faughnan for attending the committee. He has explained his role as an advocate and I congratulate him on performing that role effectively. He has done so for some time. The reason I raised this matter was because I could not get a clear explanation as to what was going on with diesel prices. I was also concerned by the fact that when I sought answers, everyone backed off. The Commission for Energy Regulation has no role and neither, apparently, has the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources. In my view that is unsatisfactory. What Mr. Faughnan has explained, and it sounds convincing to me, is that essentially there has been profiteering. Petrol has been stockpiled because the companies thought they could make a killing and, as a result, diesel prices have gone up. That has serious implications for energy policy, not just in Ireland but, as Mr. Faughnan said, in other countries.

If we are taking the issue of climate change seriously then we must confront this matter. It is not good enough to say that sometimes the market will screw us and sometimes it will not. I recommend that the committee write to the Minister with this presentation, reminding him that he is a participant in various international fora where this issue needs to be addressed. Quite apart from the tax issue there is the bigger issue we must raise, whether at European or global fora. Otherwise, at some point in the future — perhaps it is happening already — people will ask why they should bother buying a diesel car if they cannot depend on cheaper fuel. This has implications for the environment. We should write to the Minister, present this information to him and request that, in the context of the bigger picture, he take on board our concerns. Simply saying, as he has done on a number of occasions, that it is nothing to do with him is an inadequate reply.

I presume Mr. Faughnan would not welcome any further reductions in the tax on diesel being transferred to petrol. However, it would be an obvious way to encourage good practice. He has stated there has been a clear movement away from seasonal variations this year and that it will take some time for this to work its way through.

Mr. Conor Faughnan

That is correct. We have been asked previously about the relative price of petrol and diesel. The position seems counter-intuitive because they are both products that result from refining crude oil. That the two prices move in different directions when all other variables should be equal is a source of bafflement. Our survey shows that each winter the gap narrows. It depends on how forensically one wishes to analyse this matter but one can even identify the winters in the northern hemisphere that have been extremely cold. The latter has a significant bearing on the price of diesel. However, I have never known seasonal variations to last beyond February until now.

I cannot claim any special wisdom with regard to what big oil companies are doing. I am not really convinced that they are seeking to influence the market through the large-scale manipulation of inventories. It is more the case that they were caught on the hop. Refineries have finite capacities and their owners are obliged to make business decisions regarding what will be most profitable for them. These companies produce aviation fuel, gasoline, diesel, home heating oil and various petrol distillates and by-products from crude oil. It is only possible to make X amount of products from a barrel of oil. Oil company owners are obliged, therefore, to decide what will be best for their businesses. It is somewhat similar to an ice cream salesman deciding how much product to stock for next summer. To some extent, he must take a punt with regard to what conditions will be like.

The oil industry in the United States took a punt, based on assumptions on gasoline consumption there in the past four or five months. It appears that it simply got it wrong because not as much gasoline as it expected was produced. It ended up with more gasoline in stock than it could sell and less diesel in stock. Due to the fact the United States is so massive — it accounts for well in excess of 40% of world gasoline consumption — this has a significant effect on the world market. Not only is poor little Ireland like a cork on the ocean waves, even the European Union, despite its size, is severely affected by decisions made by US oil refineries.

There is very little anyone can do in respect of forward purchasing by major commodity brokers who have the capacity to purchase and store crude oil. They have been doing so for decades and there is not much we can do about it. When the tax rate is held at a particular level and a commodity is imported at a higher price, the tax take is much greater than was previously the case. At our previous meeting I stated hauliers were really feeling the pinch. People who are obliged to drive to and from work are liable for additional costs but these will not put them out of business. There has been a 15% hike in the price of diesel during the past 12 months. Hauliers find it difficult to claw back this money from those for whom they work. Is Mr. Faughnan in a position to provide a breakdown in respect of the tax take for the past three years?

Mr. Conor Faughnan

I have that data. They are not included in the document circulated to members. There is something which might be of interest to the Deputy, namely, some information I received from the Irish Petroleum Industry Association on its breakdown of what comprises the selling price of a litre of fuel. The tax take does not necessarily increase when the price rises because the excise duty is fixed and defined per litre. However, VAT is not fixed and is charged as a percentage. The Government does not receive an excise duty windfall when the price rises but it does receive a VAT windfall.

When we mention VAT to the Government, we are informed that, for all sorts of reasons, it cannot be touched. VAT is one of the indices used to decide our contribution to the European Union budget. There are many reasons VAT on fuel cannot be altered. These arguments are somewhat unconvincing, particularly when fuel alone pulls in over €2 billion in revenue for the Government. I have a great deal of sympathy for Mr. Jimmy Quinn and the Irish Road Haulage Association when they are obliged to make their case. Mr. Quinn and I frequently meet in Buswells Hotel on budget day to discuss who got hammered the most. The effect on members of his association is proportionately worse.

This is not a narrow consideration because when haulage prices increase, everyone is affected. Fuel is a component cost in almost every good and service in the economy and this feeds directly into inflation. I concur with Deputy McManus. I do not believe the Government can simply state world economic factors are outside Ireland's control and that we must roll with the punches. We can be somewhat more creative in that regard.

From a national strategic point of view, we should do as much as possible to wean ourselves off these fuels and invest in strategies designed to reduce oil usage. We could, for example, invest in bio-fuels, encourage the use of alternatives or merely increase the efficiency of the way we do business. Ireland is an oil thirsty and oil dependent nation. We are hugely dependent on a strategic resource over which we have no control and that makes us vulnerable. Like many others, I am not convinced we are doing everything possible to guard against fluctuations such as those to which I refer and the effect they have on the economy.

I welcome Mr. Faughnan and compliment the AA, of which I have been a member for many years, on its work. Not only does it help people when their vehicles break down, it also comments on matters such as road safety, the price of oil, etc.

Deputy D'Arcy commented on the position of road hauliers, a matter about which I am also concerned. They will be obliged to pass on the increase in their costs. That will be a serious development because it will lead to an increase in inflation, which is a pity. We must consider the use of alternative fuels rather than remaining dependent on diesel and petrol.

I also welcome Mr. Faughnan. Members are well aware of his work over many years and his level of competence.

We cannot become over-reliant on bio-fuels. We must be conscious that the world's population is increasing and that it must be fed. Safeguarding agriculture and food production must, therefore, be the ultimate objective, both nationally and internationally. There is a place for bio-fuels but we should focus, in a major way, on renewable energy sources. We should also focus on public transport. I accept that the latter is not strictly Mr. Faughnan's brief. However, it is our brief and we should focus on developing and restoring the rail network.

The major issue in respect of the price of diesel revolves around the cost of haulage. Issues relating to motoring are obviously important and due to a lack of rail and public transport sevices, many throughout the country cannot travel to or from work by any other means. To that extent, an increase in the price of diesel almost represents a tax on work. This was the difficulty that arose when legislation relating to provisional driving licences was brought forward. In large parts of constituencies such as Cavan-Monaghan, which I represent, and Donegal North-East, which Deputy Joe McHugh represents, the car is the only option for travelling to work.

The main issue is the impact of increased diesel prices on haulage contractors. I have good friends in the haulage industry who inform me that their inability to pass on all the recent increases is threatening employment in the sector. In addition, those that are passed on have a knock-on effect on inflation.

The joint committee should call on the Minister for Transport to intervene creatively, as Mr. Faughnan requested, to address the exorbitant cost of diesel in the haulage sector and mitigate its knock-on effects. While it is difficult to differentiate between types of consumers, action must be taken to alleviate the problems facing the haulage sector and keep inflation down. I formally recommend that the joint committee make a submission to the Minister calling on him to intervene to control the price of diesel with a view to controlling inflation and protecting the haulage sector.

I apologise for being late and welcome Mr. Faughnan. I thank him for his comprehensive contribution and I thank Deputy Liz McManus for raising this issue. It makes nonsense of environmental strategies when diesel, which is less environmentally harmful than other fuels, is more expensive than petrol. Naturally, the punter will choose the least expensive option, which in this case is more harmful to the environment. The joint committee should develop a strategy, creative or otherwise, to address this problem.

Given that I have been accused by the Chairman of digressing on previous occasions, I do not propose to do so again. I will, however, give an example of the ludicrous lack of connectivity in transport. Yesterday morning I had to travel from Dublin to Donegal to attend an engagement. I flew from Dublin to Derry with 11 other passengers on a 36 seat aircraft. I do not know what fuel is used to power aeroplanes but I assume the practice of transporting 12 people from A to B in this manner damages the environment. Incidentally, although it is the fourth largest city in Ireland, Derry does not have a direct rail link to the Republic and has poor road infrastructure.

On my arrival in Derry, I had to travel a further 60 miles by car to Letterkenny and then onwards to Carrigart. Following the engagement, I returned to Dublin by car, which took a further five hours. Having started my journey at 7 a.m. yesterday when I took a taxi in Dublin city, I went to bed at 1 a.m. this morning after a bowl of cornflakes. It is only 167 miles from Dublin to Carrigart.

Mr. Faughnan is an advocate who frequently features in the media. He has considerable experience and knowledge of possible solutions and strategies. My experience highlights to me that the debate must move on. A new committee on climate change has been established. While an exceptional amount of jargon is used to describe what we are trying to achieve, it amounts to no more than a regurgitation of what is said on CNN and Fox News. The country needs a collective kick in the backside. We hear about environmental challenges and the steps needed to protect the environment but we are not taking basic, simple steps. We must sit down and draw up strategies to deliver proper alternatives for travelling from A to B.

It is ridiculous that it took me 18 hours to travel 167 miles and back yesterday. We talk about the carnage caused in road traffic accidents. Car drivers have no choice but to drive because of the poor public transport infrastructure. It is time we started to focus on more creative fuel choices and public transport alternatives. While I am aware the latter area is not Mr. Faughnan's remit, it is clear he realises that a proper public transportation system does not preclude the use of the car. We need to get realistic about this issue and drop the jargon.

Does Deputy McHugh feel better after that? His words came from the heart.

I hope he claimed his air miles.

Would members like to hear of my recent trip around Ireland? Members have to travel all over the place. I am pleased to welcome Mr. Faughnan of AA Ireland. Having listened to his voice on radio for years, it is a pleasure to meet him. I am a member of the AA.

Does Deputy Kelly attend many meetings?

I declare a vested interest and understand all my colleagues on this side are also members of the AA. It is difficult to believe it does not have more than 400,000 members given the service it provides and the way in which it looks after its customers. I advise anyone about to make a journey to consult the AA beforehand as it would probably cut their journey time in half. Is that not correct?

Mr. Conor Faughnan

I hope that is the case.

Will Deputy Kelly indicate which AA organisation he means?

I am a member of both. Members are concerned about the impact of increased diesel prices on hauliers, an issue on which we will consult the Minister who is also concerned about the position of the haulage sector. Ireland must first secure permission from the European Union before reducing prices or introducing subsidies. I hope prices will decrease.

Without seeking to start a party political debate, the rail service from Sligo to Dublin has benefited from new signalling systems and carriages, whereas prior to 1997 it did not receive any investment. If investment was consistent, everything would be grand.

I will revert to one point raised by Mr. Faughnan. He referred to a diesel price of between €1.19 and €1.21, which is what we, in my area, are accustomed to. The best advice is to recommend that consumers shop around. In one filling station in Dublin diesel is being sold for €1.79 or €1.80, an extortionate price which gives a bad impression to those travelling down the quays having arrived in the city by ferry. I mention the service station in question for all the wrong reasons.

Mr. Conor Faughnan

Everyone knows the service station to which the Chairman refers is the Statoil garage on Usher's Quay, which is a source of great frustration to Statoil as it is a franchise rather than a directly owned company. In a deregulated market, the owner can charge as much as he likes — a tenner per litre if he wants. The only defence of the consumer is to shop around, a practice I hope will result in good competition.

It is true that Ireland has a shocking public transport and rail deficit relative to other countries. Roads are used to move 96% of freight. If one looks at a map of any other national rail network in Europe, one is able to identify the country in question at a glance because one recognises its silhouette. That is not the case with Ireland. From looking at a rail network map of Ireland, one might just figure out where Dublin is but not the rest of the island. The shocking deficiencies in the rail network go back generations. In the long term, strategically, we need to invest in our rail network.

There is no contradiction in a motoring advocate supporting public transport, as the two are not rivals in any sense of the word. It makes absolute sense for AA Ireland to lobby vociferously for the building of the Dublin metro, Luas or for extra investment in Dublin Bus. We have been cheerleaders and advocates for these investments over the years. Nobody has a vested interest in being wasteful or in congestion on the roads.

There is a problem globally with the almost reckless pursuit of bio-fuels as it is affecting food production and so forth. It is well documented that the price of maize is going up in response to fields being planted to grow crops for bioethanol. There are even stories about stretches of rain forests being cut down to plant corn to produce bio-fuels which is evidently ludicrous. One has to be careful of unintended consequences of well-meaning policies.

In our own little country, there is plenty we can do in this area. Anything that grows can be turned into diesel. Maxol and Carberry Milk Products in west Cork are involved in a marvellous initiative where Carberry produces bioethanol and biodiesel to be sold through 17 Maxol service stations nationwide. Some of the major car manufacturers, such as Ford, Volvo and Saab, have models that can run on bioethanol. Even if it only contributes 3% to fuel use, it is worth pursuing in this jurisdiction. I am not too cynical about bio-fuels but, as the Deputy remarked, it is a complex issue.

Is there anything we can do about rising diesel prices? The consumer should shop around to put pressure on the oil companies to give good value. We should be efficient in the use of fuel, whether it is leaving the car behind the odd time or some other prudent measure. From the national strategic perspective for the economy and the environment, we should be weaning ourselves off oil.

The car gets much of the blame for climate change. While I accept this, the context should also be remembered. Cars are responsible for 12% of Ireland's greenhouse gas emissions. It is not a small amount but the public perception is that it is much higher. That should be nailed. It is a significant figure but it is dwarfed by electricity generation, industry, agriculture and other sectors.

With the technological investments the motor industry has been compelled to make by the EU and others, the improvement in the environmental footprint of private cars is sensational. If similar improvements were made by all contributing sectors, we would be a long way towards achieving our objectives. It is appropriate that car users do their bit to promote a cleaner environment. However, I would caution against putting a disproportionate focus on the private car sector which despite public perception, is a small component of our overall national greenhouse emissions figure.

Thank you, Mr. Faughnan. The committee will send a copy of today's proceedings to the Minister for his observations. When we receive a response from him, we will take the matter up again and consider inviting other interested parties to attend the committee.

The joint committee adjourned at 3.45 p.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 16 April 2008.
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