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JOINT COMMITTEE ON COMMUNICATIONS, ENERGY AND NATURAL RESOURCES debate -
Wednesday, 30 Apr 2008

Salmon Habitats: Discussion with Federation of Irish Salmon and Sea Trout Anglers.

The joint committee has invited representatives of the Federation of Irish Salmon and Sea Trout Anglers to discuss improved water quality in salmon habitat rivers and estuaries. I welcome Mr. Noel Carr, secretary of the Federation of Irish Salmon and Sea Trout Anglers.

I draw Mr. Carr's attention to the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege but the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. The committee cannot guarantee any level of privilege to witnesses appearing before it. Further, under the salient rulings of the Chair, members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official, by name or in such a way as make him or her identifiable.

Mr. Carr, you are very welcome and I invite you to make your opening comments, after which we will take questions.

Mr. Noel Carr

Thank you, Chairman, for your invitation and for allowing me to address the committee. Our federation's submission has been circulated to members. With your permission, I will develop some of the salient points in it.

The Federation of Irish Salmon and Sea Trout Anglers are the eyes and ears on rivers and fresh waters in Ireland. However, to pursue the sport of angling we must clear several impediments every year. We must ensure that fish are in the rivers. There are also a number of community duties to be performed every year. On the main rivers of Ireland there are 70 clubs and about 14,000 members dipping in and out of different rivers, and there are 22 members on the federation's executive committee. That is who we are.

Our submission outlines our concerns and we appreciate the committee's interest in dealing with them. We have a history of dealing with the equivalent committee in previous parliamentary sessions. We made substantial progress with the help of the previous Chairman, Deputy Noel O'Flynn. To a large extent, our lobbying was on the netting side and the extent of exploitation in the rivers.

The life cycle of the salmon is simple. It spawns in the river and goes to sea after a couple of years, migrating as a smolt out into the north Atlantic where the feeding replenishes it. It returns to the river to spawn, coming back as either a one or multi-sea winter fish.

On 1 November 2006 the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources, Deputy Noel Dempsey, decided to end drift netting. A buy-out scheme is under way. There are a number of problems relating to it, but that is not what I intend to touch on today.

The most important issue to highlight is water quality. First, there can be damage, contamination and pollution in our waterways. Second, water quality can affect the life cycle and habitat of the wild Atlantic salmon and sea trout that spawn in the rivers. Our main concern relates to aquaculture, which we target in the form of fin-fish farming. That industry is directed into the bays and estuaries of our main rivers and nearly always involves the production of farmed salmon with feeding pens or cages.

I have summarised in the submission the five areas that I would like to develop. The first is to review the impact of aquaculture on water quality and salmon and sea trout with a view to recommending solutions based on closed containment of fish cages. In previous sessions there was joined-up thinking in the policy on fisheries and freshwater rivers. To quote many people, all things are connected. However, with the division of the marine functions into the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food and the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, we have a split again in the life cycle of salmon and the freshwater river that is its habitat. As such, we have to direct our concern on aquaculture to this committee under the headings of natural resources and the quality of water being produced.

I could go on, but the nine recommendations are included in our submission. I can give the committee an example. In the 1980s and 1990s, when Connemara was pushing hard on fish farming, Donegal Bay was designated an industrial-free bay. What happened was that all the towns around it, from Bundoran to Killybegs, calculated that they needed about £300 million to deal with the sewerage problems and to develop the towns from a tourism point of view. The development is about halfway through and the amount of sewage and sewerage capacity are being dealt with. However, in Dunkineely, for example, more is being produced from fish farms in the bay.

On one side, we have a series of clean water problems on our beaches to deal with. Schemes to deal with sewage and the allocation of money through the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government are doing this well. Although we always complain about there not being enough money spent on these areas, work is actually happening. On the other side, the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food — it was previously the responsibility of the Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources — has allocated licences to develop fish farms out in the bay.

That demonstrates that we need complete and joined-up thinking. If the committee could achieve one thing from today, it would be to get the Departments to agree to co-ordinate policy on freshwater rivers. It is a multi-Department responsibility, but we have a problem in that the salmon habitat comes under the responsibility of the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources. From that point of view, we have a couple of other issues that we are anxious to pursue if we are to build on what we have submitted to the committee. The most important development in previous sessions occurred in November 2003, when a good report and analysis of the contributors' views was produced. Sadly, no policy decision in the Government followed it up. We anxiously await something new.

The latest Government document that I have on the position of aquaculture and salmon is a draft presentation to the North Atlantic Salmon Conservation Organisation, an international body which is holding a conference at Asturias in June. To say the Government has highlighted issues and targets for the future would be a fair summary. To say that has not been done before is another fair comment. I acknowledge that progress within the Government on submitting the document for the meeting in June. As an angling body and a non-governmental organisation at the conference, we will scrutinise and mark it from the international point of view. We have found it difficult to put across our policies and the international element — using our international colleagues in the NGOs to pursue them — has been one of our strongest lobbying points.

The issue is at a crucial point, because this is the first opportunity we have had to address the committee. We see the committee as a way to make progress. The Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy Ryan, was a member of the previous committee and has great respect for how it works. I imagine, therefore, that he will take serious heed of what happens here. It is something on which we received strong co-operation from all Deputies but from the Minister, in particular.

Aquaculture and its impact on fisheries are the targets. The solution is not to say we should end the fin-fish farming industry. It is actually going through a difficult time, as there are market embargoes and there is a lot of dumping. However, the biggest problem is that Norwegian companies have the predominant ownership of sites in Ireland. The other point is that they are operating under standards that are not allowed in Norway, but the marketing of our fish product is facing a serious market impediment from the Norwegians.

The most important thing that has happened in the last 20 years has been the shift in focus within the debate to what is happening in the bay. People have become more concerned about water quality indicators such as the sea lice figures for each year. The information we have compiled on the bays of Ireland has been presented to the committee in graph form. The figures were obtained from the Marine Institute, the statutory authority at the time, as well as from the Department. We are not saying we merely suspect that this country's clean water is contaminated — we are pointing to results which show clearly that its performance is poor.

The aquaculture sector provided important employment in certain parts of the country in the 1980s and 1990s when there were no other jobs in such places. Between 70% and 80% of those working in the sector which involves difficult and tough labour are not Irish. However, I accept that all employment is important to the economy. The requirements of the tourism authorities also need to be considered in this context. Do we want to damage further this country's tourism product? If current trends continue, we will be unable to say our beaches are accessible, attractive and have a good quality of water.

The success or otherwise of Marine Harvest, a major company which accounts for a high percentage of the global market, is a strong litmus test for the industry. The company has some facilities in this country, including my home county of Donegal. The major shareholder, Mr. John Fredriksen who is from Norway, admitted last year that there should be no fish farms in salmon habitats such as estuaries. That was a major admission. As there are plenty of fjords in Norway which are not salmon habitats, companies there have a large choice of production sites. Ireland has just one fjord — Killary Harbour. All other locations, including beaches which are important for tourism, are clear habitats for salmon. Ireland is no longer seen as remote. We need to manage our resources much better. That is the objective of my visit to the committee.

We have asked the Department to monitor the manner in which nets are being used to exploit fish stocks and hope it will do so. A number of things are happening. The buy-outs have involved licensed drift-net fishermen. The draft-netting sector was a small and sustainable industry when it was under single stock management. Its framework is now being developed in a manner that may involve a return to draft-netting. I cite the example of the River Feale in the Chairman's local area. It is a strong, prolific and potentially good river. It is the jewel in the crown of the north Kerry angling tourism sector. Two of its tributaries — the River Galey and the River Brick — are closed to anglers because they do not carry enough salmon. They are well below the conservation line. However, a quota of 3,500 fish is allowed down the channel, but the fishermen were unable to catch that amount of fish in the nets last year.

Anglers do not mind giving up fish if they are asked to do so with a specific purpose in mind — for example, as part of an attempt to get the river to replenish at some stage. However, it does not make sense if draft-netting is taking place in the same area and fish are being impeded as they try to swim upstream. Like the netsmen, we were asked to make some sacrifices last year. Some 26 rivers in County Donegal were closed to fishermen, but that is not the hard part. People were originally asked to pay €30 for their licences. They paid €64 until last year. The fee has increased to €134 this year. Some compare such prices to the cost of a golf club membership. Anglers tend to move around the country to fish. The price increases led to a reduction of almost 50% in the number of licences being bought last year, but the amount of money being taken in doubled. The fisheries boards are probably not losing that much revenue, but the level of participation in our sport, a healthy activity, has halved. One can participate in angling throughout one's lifetime — it is not like football which one can play for a relatively short period of one's life. We are encouraging people to participate in other sports.

We should not forget that the driftnet fishermen are losing their livelihoods. We need to be balanced.

Mr. Noel Carr

They have lost their livelihoods for environmental reasons — the fish are no longer there.

I ask Mr. Carr to conclude in order that we can have a discussion on the issue.

Mr. Noel Carr

I will concentrate on water quality.

Mr. Noel Carr

Legislation to protect spawning beds is in place. However, some of it cannot be enforced. Protection is an important aspect of the activities of the Federation of Irish Salmon and Sea Trout Anglers. The federation is keen to strengthen its co-operation with the Central Fisheries Board and the regional fisheries boards. In 2003 Mr. John O'Connor of the Central Fisheries Board told this committee that there was no point in making further investment in this country's fisheries as long as sea cages at the bottom were infesting migrating smolts on their way out. As Mr. O'Connor is about to retire from his post, I wish him well. He said on that occasion that he would be called before the Committee of Public Accounts if he was found to be wasting money. Things have not changed since. The Central Fisheries Board has statutory responsibility for this area.

If the community bodies such as the body I represent are to develop and work harder, it is important for us to know we will be on the rivers next year. In a number of cases, sadly, we do not have the secure tenure we need. The Gweebarra case is the most serious in County Donegal. We were given notice in the Donegal Democrat that we could no longer fish the River Gweebarra in the way we were originally given tenure. Our difficulties in this regard must be addressed through the provision of secure tenure. I have made a document published by the North Atlantic Salmon Fund available to the committee. The document proposes greater co-operation across the north Atlantic region in respect of the climate change aspects of this matter. In effect, it explains how the management of freshwater habitats affects salmon spawning areas. The committee has a great opportunity to embrace this proposal and make progress in that regard. Perhaps the Minister will co-operate with it. I thank it for giving me time to contribute.

I welcome Mr. Carr. He has expressed strong views which is useful for us because it gets a debate going and gets us thinking about the different problems. I recall being on this committee some years ago when we took a serious look at the aquaculture industry at a time of significant sea lice problems and a significant dumping incident which had the potential to cause a great deal of environmental damage. I have not followed the sea lice issue since then in any detail. Clearly the issue needs to be looked at again.

I come from the school of thought that states that aquaculture plays a strong part in marine industries around the coast. The issue is to ensure we put the cages in places that are appropriate. In regard to the lice control protocols, Mr. Carr says they are not working. What does he mean by that? My understanding is that a lice monitoring system is in place and when lice population exceeds a certain level that triggers a response from the Department. Is Mr. Carr saying that system is not working? I am interested to hear a detailed answer to that question because the trigger system was put in place on the last occasion we discussed this matter seriously.

Mr. Carr appeared to suggest that there are people involved in the aquaculture industry who are inappropriately on State agencies such as the Marine Institute. Will he say who is inappropriately appointed to any of those State agencies or boards? I assume there are representatives from the angling industry also. Given that it is a fairly clear recommendation, will Mr. Carr outline his concerns?

On the issue of farms being relocated, my understanding is that some of the bigger operators in Ireland have sought licences to put cages further out to sea but they have not been able to get licences for that purpose. There appears to be a conflict between companies who want to move out of bays and have the technology and equipment to put fish farms in more wild locations but they do not seem to be able to get the licences. What should be the criteria for relocating cages and fish farms? I have a fair idea of what Mr. Carr's answer may be to that question.

In regard to recommendation No. 9, will Mr. Carr outline if a tagging system is in place or whether there is random tagging? I would have thought the process of tagging all young fish in a fish farm is fairly laborious and difficult when one considers the number of fish in an aquaculture cage. I am not sure whether it is possible to catch and tag all of them. Perhaps he would give us some detail on that issue.

While drift-netting is over in Ireland draft-netting is not. I have concerns in regard to the compensation scheme for the drift-net men, some of whom have been treated very harshly and some of whom have done quite well. In terms of draft-netting — that is not illegal — Mr. Carr describes the holding of the national catch at a sustainable 20,000. What is a sustainable number and where is it? What is the level of negotiation between fisheries boards, the Marine Institute and organisations such as the Federation of Irish Salmon and Sea Trout Anglers on deciding where draft-netting is appropriate and where it is not? My understanding of draft-netting is that there are strict regulations in regard to the portions of a river that are allowed to be used for draft-nets which is limited in terms of the width of the river and so on, where people can put nets in place. Perhaps Mr. Carr can give the committee some more detail on that issue. The main issue for me is enforcement of the existing rules. That is where the current regional fisheries boards structure needs to be restructured. I am aware the Department is looking at that issue in order that there can be tighter enforcement of the rules and more accurate reporting.

On having read a number of articles on salmon poaching, I am surprised Mr. Carr has not raised it because I understand it is a growing problem in rivers where salmon is poached not just by Irish people but those who are, perhaps, new to Ireland and do not understand the rules who when they catch a fish they eat it rather than return it to the river. Given that there appears to be a cultural issue that needs to be addressed, what is Mr. Carr's organisation doing to address that issue to ensure responsible angling on our rivers?

Mr. Noel Carr

The sea lice control system I have highlighted is not working. Members of the committee will see from the graph of 2007 actualities, that the farm would have been notified of the intention to visit the farm. Probably in quite a number of cases, they would have been given the opportunity to rectify the problem. This is the only spread sheet in the submission. I have highlighted the main bays where fish farming takes place. Without going into detail——

Perhaps Mr. Carr will explain the figures. I was trying to read them during his presentation. Maybe I am being stupid but I cannot follow the figures. I am not sure which each column represents. Perhaps he would explain it in language that we can understand?

Mr. Noel Carr

Forgive me. I am not qualified in this area, other than——

It is professional.

It is too professional. The problem is we are not into the lingua.

Mr. Noel Carr

There are two areas when examinations take place — inside the critical period when smolts migrate out through the bay. The critical period is from December to February, March and April. That is when the sea lice must be at its lowest level. One never actually gets it right but it should be at its lowest possible level so that the infestation of wild fish going out through those bays will not have serious damage. The committee may remember the "Prime Time" programme of 2003 which triggered the Oireachtas joint committee hearing at the time. One of the main reasons for that was that there was malpractice within the industry, which is the best way of putting it. Without any follow-up——

For the record, RTE never contacted the industry in regard to that programme. The industry never had a right to reply.

I raised that point at the time. That is absolutely right.

Mr. John Carr

The industry was interviewed in that programme because Patrick Gallagher who is a member of the Gallagher Brothers in Inver Bay were——

In my area, the marine harbours to which I refer were not contacted in regard to the programme.

They made representations to the Houses at the time.

Mr. Noel Carr

I am sorry to dispute it. Not alone was the industry contacted but the chief executive of the industry, Richard Flynn, was the person interviewed on that programme and found to be giving conflicting advice from one of his members on that programme. The Deputy may be mixing it up with the drift netting programme two years later.

Mr. Noel Carr

Let us play back the programme.

No, we will leave it at that.

Mr. Noel Carr

Richard Flynn, who is on the Salmon Commission with me, was interviewed——

He does not work for Marine Harvest.

Mr. Noel Carr

He represents Marine Harvest's industry.

He is in the IFA.

Mr. Noel Carr

Yes.

I do not want to go into any of that.

We can talk about it later.

Yes, you can discuss it afterwards if you wish. I am trying to——

Mr. Noel Carr

I am sorry to differ with Deputy McHugh on this but the industry was consulted.The most important part of that programme was that there was no research in the north Atlantic on the smolt going out through the Marine Harvest bay in Lough Swilly, Mulroy or wherever. Because of the infestation, that smolt was dying in the middle of the north Atlantic. Norwegian research highlighted in the "Prime Time" programme showed that a high percentage of our smolts going out through the bays were being lost. That would account for much of the sea mortality of our wild fish. The critical period is important and the Government statistics on it indicate we are in trouble. We need a good deal of improvement in the industry.

There is no point in asking the industry to end its involvement because the problem will not go away. This area will continue to develop and the quadrupling of the investment in it in the next few years is a major concern for us. All we want are proper practices to make it a sustainable industry that is not producing sea lice at the current levels. More importantly, we must ensure that when our smolts are going through the migrating process through the bays they are not infested. There are ways to address the problem.

Deputy Coveney asked about the practices that are still in place. Some farms have sought new technologies in terms of high energy sites in the main thoroughfares of the Atlantic. Those are like some of the old oil rigs. Rather than being dismantled, they are being used in those areas of the North Sea. There is not investment in that technology similar to the investment in the production side. It is not happening to the degree we would wish.

We should examine the problem on the basis of closed containment. Where we are producing fish sewage, for want of a better term, we are trying to manage the contamination. There are successful ways of doing that but the industry must be encouraged to deal with it. I hope that answers Deputy Coveney's question.

On the criteria for relocation, the late Dr. Graham Shaw highlighted the most important aspect. If a fallowed site is left for a period of time, it is as if there is no life underneath it. To reduce the sea lice infestation numbers it was suggested that the site be fallowed, that is, relocated. New licences were awarded to do that in a number of ways over the years but the majority of sites that were re-licensed for fallowing were kept as production units. The licence in that particular location, therefore, was used to double the amount of production for that company. It was abused from that point of view. It was made clear in submissions to the joint Oireachtas committee in 2003 that this needed to be addressed but nothing happened at the time.

When Mr. Fredrickson of Marine Harvest says there is a very strong future for the industry he is talking about owning the sites because once a licensed site is owned, it is an asset that banks will use as collateral. The other site did not go off the radar in that company's asset and therefore we need to examine practices for the future. More importantly, however, degradation of the water quality is where we must concentrate our work.

There is no tagging system with regard to escapees from fish farms. Every year we get the bland report from the Department that there are no escapees. As anglers, we have frequently caught them in many rivers throughout the country but that is hearsay until a tagging system is put in place. There is a type of system in place. When the smolts are one or two pounds in weight they can be examined for other features and the tagging of them at that stage would not be difficult to do. They are tagged when they are sold also, albeit at harvest level. If we want to deal with the impact on the environment in an official way, tagging of the fish farm fish must be considered.

On the point that I did not address the poaching aspect, in my final submission I stated that protection is one of our main concerns. Perhaps I did not put it as strongly in the submission, and I apologise for that, but it is not just salmon that is involved but all fish down to coarse fishing. All our angling federations have experienced a serious problem in the past five or ten years with people taking the view that because there is fish in the river, they can take them. One must have a licence to fish for salmon. There is a regulation but in other cases there are no regulations. Coarse fish and trout are fair game for anybody who wants to sit on the side of a river and catch them. There is an impact on the stocks also but, more importantly, there is an impact on the community body that regulates and provides fishing facilities for their members. That is soul-destroying. In some cases our membership has been halved, especially in terms of the main jobs such as chairman and secretary of a local club. There is a different onus on them in terms of their responsibilities and it will be difficult to increase numbers in the voluntary sector.

With regard to salmon poaching, we are coming to terms with the problem locally, particularly in areas of Donegal, for example. I accept it is more difficult to deal with it in urban areas. If we know someone is technically poaching, so to speak, and we know where they work, we make a number of approaches with a view to getting them to join a club for €70 a year or whatever is the fee. If that is ignored and they continue to poach, which happens, a number of measures can be adopted from a voluntary point of view to deal with that. Sometimes we contact their employers and ask them to impress upon the person that it is a community angling fishery. There are various ways within the community to do that but the statutory body is powerless to deal with some aspects of the poaching issue that has arisen over the years.

I thank Mr. Carr for making this presentation. He has provided a comprehensive document which will be a good reference for us. While I am a relatively new member of this committee, I appreciate that wild salmon and sea trout are precious resources which need to be protected. The threats to them described are worrying. In terms of the attraction of these resources for tourists, it is perhaps not fully appreciated that even if a tourist angler catches only one salmon, that angler will spend thousands of euro in this country. The return to the economy is enormous in comparison to the return to the angler. These fish stocks are an important element of our tourism product, to which we need to pay close attention.

One of the points that has emerged from this discussion is that existing legislation is not being fully implemented. In the light of the polluter pays principle and because of the requirements of EU environmental law, the industrial sector has had to invest vast sums of money in the past ten or 15 years to bring it up to the required standard where it is not polluting the atmosphere, particularly air and water. It seems we must apply the same principle to aquaculture.

I was interested in what was said about water quality because many improvements have been made in sewerage schemes. The Minister was very upbeat when he spoke about the matter recently. He believes that not only will conservation levels be reached but that we will also see a bonanza in fish stocks. Obviously, the message here is different. In that context, accepting that it is still early days for the Minister, we need to closely examine this area.

We only received the presentation this morning and, therefore, have to closely examine it. I was surprised that Mr. Carr did not refer to the role of the regional fisheries boards and the Central Fisheries Board. We have been requested by the Minister to delay or postpone new elections in this regard to give him time to make new arrangements. The impression I have got from people on the ground is that not many significant changes will emerge during the 12 months' grace period granted. I would have thought that the boards had an important role to play in the work being done. I would like Mr. Carr to refer to this.

I note that in recommendation No. 3 an EIS is required. Is an EIS required now, or is Mr. Carr saying one should be required in respect of licence applications? In terms of the north Atlantic sustainability model on climate change, this committee and the Joint Committee on Climate Change and Energy Security should examine this area more closely.

Does Mr. Carr consider the interdepartmental approach is creating problems, now that the marine comes with the remit of the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, while inland fisheries comes within the remit of the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources? It seems that this could create problems in developing the aquaculture sector.

Recommendation No. 7 provides that no salmon farms should be licensed within 20 km of important wild salmon and salmonid fisheries. That seems to be a good principle. I was in County Mayo last weekend and could not believe the level of fish farming activity around Killary Harbour. We are not dealing with this issue in close enough detail. Will Mr. Carr give us an example of where fish farming activitiy was moved and where the benefits were experienced locally? If there was such an impact, it would be useful.

Is any research being carried out to tackle the problem of sea lice? One cannot tackle waste in this context — at least nobody seems to have found a way to do this — but is there ongoing research to tackle the problem at source?

Mr. Noel Carr

I appreciate the Deputy's comments. Her first point was related to the Central Fisheries Board and the development of regional fisheries boards. The Minister extended the tenure of the fisheries boards while he was making new proposals. I have referred to this in Appendix 2 with regard to the Farrell Grant Sparks review of January 2004. The report was published in late 2005 and made certain recommendations, some which the then Minister of State, Deputy Gallagher, implemented immediately with regard to transport, piers, etc. As regards the overall regional fisheries boards strategy for the future, those involved are still jockeying for position. The structure is similar to that of the old health boards. Given that the health boards were disbanded, perhaps the seven regional fisheries board could be restructured into two, as we recommended.

I am not sure the HSE is necessarily——

Mr. Noel Carr

It is not a good example.

——a good model to adopt, with due respect. It has come in for its fair share of criticism, but I understand the point Mr. Carr is making

Mr. Noel Carr

Members will recall that the seven regional fisheries boards resisted disbandment and restructuring into one or two boards. The argument for such change was made by a number of individuals at the time, given what was happening with the health boards. Perhaps with the benefit of hindsight, there may be a rethink.

The most important recommendation from our point of view concerned the National Inland Fisheries Authority, NIFA, and was proposed in the Farrell Grant Sparks report. I was chairman of the federation from 2000 to 2003. During that time I met Mr. John O'Connor, CEO of the Central Fisheries Board, while a delegation from the federation met a delegation from the board. We even attended its AGM. Under the legislation, the Central Fisheries Board cannot dictate to a regional fisheries board. There are seven independent republics which can do whatever they like. In fairness to the Central Fisheries Board, it holds the purse strings and can influence certain elements on that basis.

We have had frustrating times and relations with the regional fisheries boards. Decisions on policy, especially environmental policy on fish stocks, could not be co-ordinated from the Minister down to the regional fisheries boards. At the time the Farrell Grant Sparks report stated this had to change and that NIFA would be the new organisation to deal with the matter. However, there has been a change of Government since and a new Minister is now in office. The chairman of the Central Fisheries Board, Mr. David Mackey, has proposed alternative suggestions to what is recommended in the Farrell Grant Sparks report, the completion of which cost many million euro. There is a rethink of what was recommended and the jury is still out. Therefore, the regional fisheries boards are under scrutiny in terms of strategy and it is up to the Minister to decide.

We encourage the members of the committee to recommend implementation of the recommendations made in the Farrell Grant Sparks report as soon as possible. It took four years to complete the report. All the various stakeholders had an input into the process and the independent consultants, Farrell Grant Sparks, prepared the report. The people whom it is proposed to take out of the equation seem to be fighting a rearguard action to continue in existence. When one looks at that one can see there is a little positioning there.

On the second issue, climate change, I was anxious to include that document because it is something we have all signed up to within our sectors. Any aspect of implementation of our proposal will be met with an open door from our point of view in areas where our co-operation is sought. With regard to research on the sea lice issue and so forth, the sector is divided between Departments. The industry is looked after by the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food but the freshwater sector is looked after by the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources. From the point of view of salmon anglers, tourism and environment are also relevant Departments. There is a myriad of Departments to deal with, but mainly four, on these issues. While it is unhelpful it is challenging. Our biggest problem is the Marine Institute's division. The freshwater scientists in the Central Fisheries Board might be going to the Marine Institute. They are the people who disseminated the research which allowed us to highlight the problems in the sector.

The Marine Institute and BIM are being taken over by the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food. That means that while the Minister, Deputy Coughlan, is well aware of the issues regarding damage to water quality in her native county, she has a national brief and that brief will always favour that industry. That industry wins against the tourism and recreational industries. It is through committees such as this that we will make progress in highlighting the issues. The faster we get serious sea lice research, the better.

I thank Mr. Carr for his presentation. It was interesting, although biased in favour of one side. I do not agree that the industry always wins. Representatives of the industry have been talking to this committee for many years and they tell us they are not getting a fair run. They have always said they want to run a clean and proper industry. Like people in other sectors, they have no time for cowboys in their industry.

However, Mr. Carr has raised a number of issues. Recently, I visited New Zealand, a place where the inland fisheries won their argument with the government. I saw the greatest trout fishing area in the North Island of New Zealand. People could fish, take their fish home and cook it for their friends. However, visitors to the area could not eat the same fish in the local restaurants, which were not allowed to buy the fish. When the one-sided argument carries through, that is the result.

I am also not at all convinced by the argument about sea lice. Perhaps I am too old but I remember the panic about rainbow trout. I do not particularly like rainbow trout but I recall people telling us it would be the end of the brown trout and the industry. It was not. I also listened ten years ago when people told us the zebra mussels would destroy the industry, create algae and destroy the lakes. I am not a fisherman but I have seen the mayfly and trout fishing back on the Shannon. I have also seen clean water in the Shannon. Unless there is a great deal of evidence otherwise, therefore, I am not convinced that the lice issue, which I agree is an issue that must be dealt with, is out of control.

I am not convinced by Mr. Carr's comment about the species being diluted. I would require a great deal of convincing of that and I have not seen it this morning. It is an easy thing to say in company where it will always be accepted, but I must see the evidence. Things can change, nature changes and adapts all the time and there are compromises within nature. I would have to see how the anglers would respond to that. More than anything else I am appalled that the delegation, having gone to such trouble to tell us about water quality — and I agree with the concerns in that regard — has not mentioned water levels. I can find nothing about it in the presentation. Water levels is a bigger problem than water pollution, or is at least equally serious. I suspect the reason for doing that is that dealing with water levels is a far more difficult political matter to tackle. It is easier to talk about the pollution created by various groups from farmers to people involved in aquaculture. However, the real issue is that there is a developmental problem as a result of people taking waters out of the rivers.

Mr. Carr did not mention the second run of salmon up the river at the end of the summer. Perhaps it is not seen everywhere. I am not an expert in this area but I have seen salmon dying at the mouths of rivers, unable to swim up. What should be included in the summary of proposals in the submission is an active project to lift salmon or trout returning to the rivers at the end of the summer, when water levels are naturally low, over whatever obstacles prevent them getting up the river. That is not happening.

There is a proposal in the Farrell Grant Sparks report about community ownership. I agree with that proposal. The federation has not developed it. I suspect one of the reasons the trout fishermen are not pursuing it is that, generally, community ownership happens in places where the same community deals not only with fishing on a river but also sea fishing. The community takes a broad view on getting a balance. I met a group about three years ago when the fishery licences for the lakes under Connor Pass were for sale. The local community tried to buy them and got little support from anybody. The same people had also traditionally been involved in drift-netting for hundreds of years. They lost both because nobody helped them. If they had received help, they would have policed it themselves.

That brings me to what has happened in the largest salmon fisheries in the world, which are in Canada. Will Mr. Carr explain to the committee how the Canadians have dealt with this same issue and why that approach would not work or has not been tried in Ireland? I suspect that one of the problems here is that salmon fishermen and the aquaculture industry do not have a loud political voice. I always take the opportunity to listen to them because I believe there is often an imbalance in discussion about this area. My understanding of what happens in the St. Lawrence sea way, which is the largest estuary in Canada, is that every year the salmon are counted going up the river. A calculation is made of the number needed up river to ensure there is sufficient for bears and other wildlife to eat. When that number has gone up-river, the drift nets are allowed. It is not a date or a season, but a count. The people who make the count are the fishermen. It is, therefore, not costly to the state, works very effectively and there is a viable, thriving industry. Why can that not happen here? This is an issue we have not examined.

I agree with Mr. Carr's point about a sustainable national catch, which is why I mentioned the Canadian experience. I could speak at some length but the meeting has been lengthy. However, I believe there is another side to the argument. I appreciate the point made by Mr. Carr, and it is important that he came to the committee to make it. However, I will advise the committee that we should hear from other people who will put forward an opposing view, which is what I am trying to give at present.

Mr. Noel Carr

The opposite view was clearly expressed in 2003. Technically, not a great deal has happened since, so much of that argument is still there. I hope I am not biased but the argument of the opposites in the industry was clearly made at that time as well. The only thing I am doing here is updating from that time. It is relevant from that point of view. The Senator said he was appalled that I have not mentioned the water levels. There are quite a number of abstractions that are making water and fisheries unviable.

How does Mr. Carr view the Shannon water coming to Dublin?

Mr. Noel Carr

I hear the debate going on about it. Obviously, abstracting any water from a salmon fishery takes from the habitat and has serious repercussions all the way down the line. Mr. Patsy Peril of the Shannon Regional Fisheries Board has highlighted the Derg problem as well. That is where the real abstraction will take place, and it is going east as well. It is not further up the river on which the concerns should be concentrated, which seems to be the case at present. I can give the committee a document on the abstraction at a later stage. Senator O'Toole stated he had seen the salmon dying in the estuaries.

I will name the rivers concerned — Annascaul River, Feoghanagh River and Cloghane River. I was taken around to see them at those three rivers. I am not an expert in the area, but I and a former member of this committee, Senator Tom Fitzgerald, were shown them.

Mr. Noel Carr

From time to time in honey pots within rivers I see fish trying to get up falls and while it is a tourist attraction, in many cases they are waiting for water. They do not die in estuaries.

They never got up the river.

Mr. Noel Carr

My point is that if there is no water at the time, they wait until they get water. It is a natural phenomenon. Approximately 0.2% of the ova returns. One does not see the bodies of salmon coming back down into estuaries. They return to sea or to the bay for a little while until later. There is a problem in rivers if they get caught in pools. One would see an odd such occurrence. That is another matter, it is down to the Man above. Mother nature deals with it. She regulates herself.

As she will deal with sea lice.

Mr. Noel Carr

No, that is a man-made issue. This is the problem. If one turns up the knob on that production, one is turning up on sea lice. It might take 20 years to regulate that.

Senator O'Toole made a point about rainbow trout and other species. The jury is still out on that. In relative terms, it will take generations to see the impact of this. We are not talking about just one 20-year snapshot. Whether one likes it, the native strain is being diluted. When one puts escapees into a wild salmon habitat up a river, there is competition for the available food and, more importantly, for the ova.

That is akin to a racist view, like being afraid of strangers.

Mr. Noel Carr

Yes. We have not embraced immigration in the wild salmon habitat for the simple reason that it is unique in our heritage and we must ensure its protection in so far as possible. It is not politically correct.

I welcome Mr. Carr to the committee. It is good to see a fellow Donegal man here. He made a brief reference to the Gweebarra issue, although he is here not in a Donegal context but with a national remit representing his organisation. On the Gweebarra protest, as a political representative in Donegal, I stated on record that we need a bottom-up approach so that the club has more ownership. As Deputy McManus mentioned here, any new negotiations of the fishery boards must take that into account. I referred to that last week when the Minister, Deputy Ryan, was here.

FISSTA News refers to the organisation's message, a 13-point document that has been handed to the anglers with respect to Gweebarra bridge. Without going through it, I picked out a few items in it. The following language is used: without any consultation, without any formal notice until it appeared in the Donegal Democrat, evicting lifelong fishermen, damaging the rights of all anglers in Ireland, the disenfranchising of over 2,000 anglers, no rod quotas without consultation, and promises have been broken.

We are all with Mr. Carr on that. Naturally, politicians will support the clubs to ensure that they have a degree of ownership, but what is needed in the overall debate is a degree of empathy because the same language used there could describe what the drift net fishermen went through in terms of life-long industry, a traditional way of life, and no consultation. In order to move the debate forward we need to look at the different aspects. We will never have harmony, which is an idealistic position, but we must have a degree of empathy from different sectors of the industry and we need to spare a thought for people who are no longer able to carry on a traditional way of life.

Mr. Carr emphasised the industrial aspects. That is obvious. There is domestic and industrial pollution going into our rivers. These are the challenges.

There is a significant issue into which perhaps Mr. Carr's angling association can make a big input, namely, the new Green Paper on local government reform in which the Minister is looking for input on devolved local government. At present, local authorities do not have the money to provide proper sewerage infrastructure, never mind monitoring of it, to prevent raw sewage from going into rivers and estuaries. There is a role for Mr. Carr's angling association to play in that regard.

There is little emphasis on seals. What research is being done on how the seals are damaging the salmon population when they try to return to their spawning grounds? This is a matter of concern to the association.

I am seriously concerned about poaching. The evidence is only anecdotal because if one saw them one would do something about it, but one hears that these guys are operating on a professional basis using sub-aqua techniques and the proper gear for poaching.

I do not want to get into farm-fishing and the issue I raised during the meeting. We can clarify it and if I am wrong, I will accept that. I come from a farming background, a wee place called Carrigart. As Mr. Carr will be aware, the land is not as good as that where he comes from in Carrick and Glencolumcille. One thing I know about farming is that one does not set the crop of potatoes in the same field every year. I realise that is a simplistic argument when it comes to salmon farming, but it makes sense to me. Mr. Carr makes that argument, that a farm cannot be operated on the same ground all the time. There is a role for his organisation to put the heat on the Department.

Many of the sea cages have gone through planning. For example, Marine Harvest Group is trying to get sea cage licences for 12 or 15 years and the operation will move further out to sea, as Deputy Coveney stated. The sea cages will not be in situ in the same places within the estuaries and the bays. I believe that is a way of combating sea lice and it is an issue we should take on board.

Returning to my original point, if there is not a degree of empathy for the different sectors within our county where there are mussel farmers, scallop farmers, oyster farmers and even those who had salmon licences trying to diversify into shrimp, everybody is fighting a battle for the limited resources. If there is one point I would make today, which is not just for the anglers of Mr. Carr's organisation but for all organisations, it is that there must be a degree of empathy, otherwise there will be constant division. There is only one group into which we are paying, namely, the Department. The Department likes division. It is a divide and conquer theory. I would like to have seen a situation where anglers were more sympathetic to the drift-net fishermen and in the situation anglers are in at present on the Gweebarra river there would have been a reciprocal feeling of empathy from drift-net fishermen towards the anglers. There is room for empathy. There is room for a little more co-operation because there is a great divide at present.

I welcome Mr. Carr's participation and that of his organisation, and his presence here today. I do not wish to ask any specific questions. I merely wished to make that point.

Mr. Noel Carr

I appreciate the Deputy's comment and agree with him regarding empathy. I became chairman in 2000. At the time we had a confrontational role within the drift net sector and salmon numbers were plummeting as a result of inaction. However, during the period we signed up to the North Atlantic Salmon Fund's principles of basic respect for the industry. It was not the case that such respect was lacking but it was not evident to the public. Perhaps an element of leadership was lacking but we realised that we had to organise buy-outs. We also accepted that the industry needed to be recognised and that a compensation scheme was required.

We promoted this concept up to 1 November 2006 when it eventually became a reality. The difficulty lay in the type of promotional, commercial or buy-out scheme that would be put in place. Sadly, the three-man committee did not recommend that the scheme we brought forward be accepted. If it had been, those involved in the industry would have been given their rights as we perceive them. That said, the matter has been dealt with and it is all water under the bridge now. If people had been aware of what Mr. Patsy Peril and the Irish Salmon Netsmen's Association proposed at the time and supported their efforts, true leadership would have emerged and fishermen leaving the industry now would have a great deal more money in their pockets.

The Gweebarra Angling Club was part of the Donegal Game Angling Federation. It was trying, in co-operation with the Rosses Anglers and the Fintown Anglers, to manage the resource. As the Deputy stated, the division of the Northern Regional Fisheries Board came into play and a sweet deal was offered to the club in question. It is now what we call a "cuckoo" club because it entered the nest of existing clubs and effectively threw out the eggs. One will not achieve empathy in such circumstances, one will only create confrontation. This confrontation was manufactured and produced by the Northern Regional Fisheries Board with the assistance of funding provided by Donegal County Council. That was part of the problem. I acknowledge those county councillors who voted on the Monday before last to support the Donegal Game Angling Federation and the two clubs, Rosses and Fintown, in dealing with the matter.

What happened in this instance is indicative of the problems we face nationally. In the southern part of the country there is a feeling that action must be taken. There is superb potential among the clubs of counties Kerry, Galway, Donegal and Mayo which, with the Moy, has the jewel in the crown. More importantly, however, there is potential to create jobs and sustainable tourism opportunities. Even when exchange rates fall, anglers from abroad remain loyal and continue to come to Ireland. Perfect conditions may not be guaranteed but they travel here because they cannot access what we have to offer anywhere else in the world.

I do not wish to talk down the opportunities available. There is strong potential in this area but there is a need for promotion. Neither the Department nor the Northern Regional Fisheries Board recognise that people continue to come to Ireland because they feel welcome and believe they are part of the process. If we start selling people a day's fishing on a river, conflict will arise and the local clubs will not make them feel welcome. The latter is the key ingredient of any tourism angling project and it will disappear. There is a need to reconsider the strategy of removing anglers from their local waterways because it will not work.

The Deputy referred to seals, the numbers of which have been increasing in recent times. Part of the reason for this relates to the fact that the use of drift nets provided an additional food source for seals in the Atlantic. Our argument is that if this source of food is taken away, the matter will be dealt with by mother nature and the number of seals will decrease. It may take a few years for this to happen. However, it will not be long before numbers decrease because the food source to which I refer is being removed.

On fish farming, one must fallow a field of potatoes. However, fish farmers discovered that it is not necessary to fallow their sites. They can apply for new fallowing sites but the same numbers of fish will still be produced on their old sites. Some farmers have gone for donkey's years without fallowing their sites. However, increasing numbers of sea lice are produced.

In respect of planning, there has been a massive increase in the number of sites in County Donegal. I commend those who are working hard to examine the details relating to those sites. I have seen Bord Fáilte promotions in respect of the lovely beaches — for example, those at Trawbreaga Bay and Downings Bay — in the county. Marine Harvest has made applications in respect of some of them. It does not make sense to put in place sea cages in certain areas. I commend the members of Save the Swilly who managed in the past to——

I do not want to become involved in discussing that matter. I am a public representative and would place jobs before visible pollution in any circumstances. We are in agreement on most matters but——

Mr. Noel Carr

I am not referring to visible pollution. I think, perhaps, the Deputy is referring to visual pollution as opposed to visible pollution. Let us leave aside the fact that beautifully scenic sites are being defaced by the putting in place of cages. The type of pollution about which I am concerned is that which prevents people from entering the water. In that context, I refer to the pollution in Inver Bay and other places.

I was responsible for running an inter-Celtic watersports festival at Ballyshannon some years ago. We were obliged to cancel some of the events because of the pollution — offal, etc. — in Inver Bay and other areas. We must decide if we want to have tourism industries and clean environments in these areas. If we do, we must deal with the contamination caused by fish farming. That is the simple answer.

I must ask Mr. Carr to conclude because the time for the meeting is almost exhausted.

Mr. Noel Carr

Save the Swilly and other organisations are working away in their areas. They are running to stand still and trying to ensure the environment is protected. People with whom I went to school return from Dublin and further afield each year to spend their summer holidays in County Donegal. They joke about the many changes — one can put these down to progress — that have taken place but they still want to visit the beaches, etc., at which they spent time in their childhoods.

One matter on which we have not commented is the possibility of sourcing funding for the clubs which, on a voluntary basis, manage and maintain fisheries, providing amenities and so on in their areas. The sports capital programme may be suitable. However, a number of these clubs only need between €2,000 and €4,000 not €30,000 or €50,000. Where can such funding be sourced?

Mr. Noel Carr

It is a touchy subject with us but we are in awe of organisations such as the GAA in our parish. We can never raise the funds necessary to keep the voluntary programme going. It is all down to membership fees every year. Members pay according to the amount of work we do. For example, our river is local. Some rivers are owned by the State and others are privately owned and we lease them from the private owners. In our case the river is owned by Údarás na Gaeltachta, which is a development board within our area. We pay €7,000 a year for the right to fish that river before we even start developing it and so on. The funding comes from the membership.

No grant aid is available for such work.

Mr. Noel Carr

No.

The committee should pursue this issue with the Minister and the Department.

Mr. Noel Carr

This is also an environmental and tourism issue. A cross-departmental approach should be adopted, as that would be very helpful.

I accept that. I thank Mr. Carr for his informative presentation. We have had a good discussion on this issue. It is the committee's first venture in this part of its brief and members will return to the issue. I will forward the submission to the Minister and the Department and I intend to follow up on the issue of grant aid for voluntary clubs.

Mr. Noel Carr

I thank the committee for the opportunity and I thank the Chairman for his help.

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