Skip to main content
Normal View

JOINT COMMITTEE ON COMMUNICATIONS, ENERGY AND NATURAL RESOURCES debate -
Wednesday, 20 May 2009

Irish Telecommunications Market: Discussion with Communications Workers Union.

I welcome the following: Mr. Terry Delany, deputy general secretary of the Communications Workers Union; Mr. Ian McArdle, head of regulatory affairs; Mr. Jim O'Flynn, national executive council member; and Mr. Jim Browne, national officer, telecoms. The joint committee has invited the delegation to discuss the concerns of the CWU about the sustainable development of the Irish telecoms market.

Before we begin, I advise everyone that while members of the committee have absolute privilege, this privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee which cannot guarantee any level of privilege to witnesses appearing before it. Furthermore, under the salient rulings of the Chair, members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I invite Mr. Delany to commence his presentation.

Mr. Terry Delany

I thank the Chairman and his colleagues for giving us the opportunity to meet them. I will give some background information before Mr. McArdle makes his presentation.

The Communications Workers Union, CWU, represents approximately 18,000 workers employed in the communications sector in the Republic of Ireland. As a union representing a significant number of workers across a range of companies in the telecommunications markets, the CWU welcomes this opportunity to make this presentation to the committee.

The CWU has comprehensive knowledge of the sector and the challenges it faces and recognises that the market in Ireland is entering a new phase. High speed broadband is critical to securing the economic and social future of our country. However, there is considerable uncertainty with regard to how we might realise the potential in a way that will ensure the long-term, sustainable development of a competitive market that can invest in its own future. The CWU will take this opportunity to highlight its views on how these challenges might be addressed in a way that will secure the future of the country in a fair and equitable manner that will provide all citizens and businesses with the same opportunity to benefit from truly national, next generation broadband.

High speed broadband should be treated as a utility. Government and regulatory decisions should be made on this basis. The development of a truly national next generation network, NGN, will have clear implications for efficiency and job creation. This NGN should be treated as a strategically important development which will act as a guarantor of this island's future success as a small open economy on the edge of Europe, the success of which depends on maintaining a competitive presence in a highly globalised market.

Mr. Ian McArdle

I thank the committee for the opportunity to make this presentation. I propose to go through the presentation at a reasonable pace, particularly in view of the fact that we will take questions from members at the end. I will try to make my way through the slides as quickly as possible.

Members will be aware of the key points relating to the telecommunications market. However, I wish to provide some background. The telecommunications market in Ireland is worth approximately €4.4 billion or 2.5% of GDP. I understand the committee was advised by a group which appeared before it previously that some 6,000 people are employed in the sector. In the interests of clarification, I must point out that some 14,000 or 15,000 workers are employed in the telecommunications sector. Some 9,500 of these are employed by Eircom and the remainder are employed by a number of the key operators. Investment in the sector is critical but it is expected that revenues will fall this year by approximately 5%. This is an indication of the challenge that lies ahead.

In the context of the need for strategic vision the development of a first-class telecommunications infrastructure, including a high-speed broadband network that serves every citizen, is critical. The current Eircom network is the foundation upon which the entire Irish telecommunications industry is built. Most other operators rely on it to some extent to provide a service. Securing the long-term viability of this network will underwrite the future of the telecommunications market here. The network is, therefore, critical to the future of broadband development here.

The development of an NGN requires two things, namely, Government support and intervention. We are not prescribing the form that intervention might take. There are several ways in which it might be structured. Critically, however, making such an intervention will require a changed regulatory environment. We are of the view that, if left to its own devices, the market will never deliver the kind of infrastructure the country needs to secure its place as a dynamic, knowledge-based economy that can compete effectively on the global stage. I will comment further on that matter but I must state that in the absence of a proper NGN, the Government's vision, as outlined in Building Ireland's Smart Economy, will never be realised.

As members have probably been informed, the development of an NGN is critical to job creation and to securing our future as a dynamic economy. Most other major developed economies are using the current crisis to develop their telecommunications infrastructures. They are availing of public support to build their NGNs. This secures current employment and creates jobs as it goes. It also ensures that a critical item of infrastructure that is recognised in the context of every key economic indicator as being of critical importance to the long-term security and efficiency of any economy is developed. Unfortunately, Ireland is falling behind its competitors in this regard.

The NGN represents the future. The recent Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources consultation paper acknowledged that next generation networks are critical to a knowledge society and should be at the heart of our economic and social policy, a point with which we agree completely. To underline this, Forfás recently observed that an efficient and advanced telecoms sector was strategically important because of its ability to accelerate the contribution of ICT to economic growth in all sectors, enhance social and cultural development and facilitate innovation. This is a State organisation clearly outlining the critical importance of next generation network development. To underline this further, the European Commission has described it as a critical element in assisting local communities in attracting businesses. In the current environment we know how challenging this will be for rural Ireland and will have a comment to make about the digital divide later in our presentation.

A recent UN information economy report for 2006 refers to the use of broadband and states it directly increases competitiveness and productivity and has an impact on macroeconomic growth. These statements outline the importance of this area. The same report goes on to refer to the marginalisation of economies that do not make proper investment in next generation networks. Those that are particularly susceptible are small, open economies, of which Ireland is one on the edge of the European economic block. If we do not invest in this infrastructure, we will be ceding a competitive advantage we want to have to our competitor economies.

To deal with the importance of broadband in the context of the national development plan, some €435 million was allocated in the plan to support regional economic development and address market failures in the provision of broadband. It is important to put the matter in context. This allocation for communications and broadband is not only the smallest within this part of the economic infrastructure budget, it represents less than 1%. Some €33 billion is being spent on transport, a large proportion of which is spent on roads. While roads are important, we suggest €435 million for broadband, a sum which is less than what will be spent on the Gaeltacht or marine communities, does not adequately reflect the Government's stated commitment to developing a knowledge economy with a high speed broadband network as its backbone. If we are serious about promoting a knowledge and dynamic services driven economy, the Government spend is not adequate to reflect that stated commitment.

While the CWU is very much aware of financial challenges facing the Government, we must be wary of competing economies and what they are spending. The United Kingdom recently announced that BT would spend £1.5 billion on upgrading its copper network to deliver high speed broadband to 20 million homes. In the United Stated, in which there is already a highly evolved and competitive broadband market, $8 billion will be spent. This is what we are up against as a small, open economy.

I am conscious the committee has heard from other groups on the digital divide. The perspective of the CWU is that Ireland is experiencing its own international digital divide on the basis that we are falling behind competing economies. We need a national high speed broadband scheme and a vision that is genuinely national. High speed broadband must be treated as a utility such as electricity or water, which is how seriously we have to take this challenge. We know Ireland has a substantial and highly dispersed rural population which, at 40%, is well above the average for Western developed economies which is at 5% to 10%. We acknowledge that this is a significant obstacle to achieving a modest return on investments, as was acknowledged in the recent Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources consultation paper which observed that the bulk of current investment targeted urban areas where the greatest commercial return would accrue. This is why Government intervention is critical.

The European Parliament has made observations in this regard and considered a resolution on 19 June 2007 which stated general access to broadband was an essential prerequisite for social development and improved public services and that public authorities should make every effort to ensure all citizens had access to broadband, thereby enabling its benefits to extend to every section of the population, particularly in the less developed areas of the European Union. We hear from the Parliament that this is critical to social cohesion and the development of an equal society.

The irony is that rural areas, which stand to benefit most from high speed broadband, are least likely to develop their potential as the digital divide grows. The committee has had representatives from Irish Rural Link before it recently and we have done some work with them in the past. They outlined the challenges that rural-based small and medium enterprises have in terms of broadband access. As other competing economies develop their national infrastructure and as we lag behind them more and more, it becomes more difficult for small and medium enterprises to access those markets.

That group made a very compelling case for the challenges facing rural businesses that need access to broadband to be able to access the multiple markets in particular across the UK and European Union. We are all versed in the challenges in that regard. The remedy to this is State intervention and even organisations like the OECD have highlighted that in certain circumstances, government intervention is justified, particularly when connecting under-served areas and promoting efficient markets.

A recent UN information economy report stated that broadband access is critical to the competitive advantage of businesses. With a large rural population like we have in Ireland, that challenge is enhanced and pronounced. It was stated that the service should be treated as a utility such as water or electricity, and we support that view. The report observed that e-government and services in broadband applications would help organise the public sector more efficiently. I am sure the committee is aware of the potential to deliver e-medicine, e-health, rural government and various public services via a well developed broadband network, which would provide such services on a more equitable basis across the island.

We acknowledge that the national broadband scheme is up and running and has a role to play. We are concerned about its ability to deliver what is required to the areas it aims to serve. We would argue that the platform being used — mobile broadband — has a role to play but the OECD and other organisations have described this kind of technology as complementary to wired broadband or a fibre optic network. It should work in conjunction with such systems rather than replace them, which is the current position in rural Ireland.

Our fear is that the digital divide has become solidified by the introduction of the national broadband scheme and if we develop a fibre network, the digital divide will grow over time. Since 2004, connection speeds in rural Ireland have fallen by a factor of 36 versus urban speeds, so one can expect speeds up to 36 times faster if one lives in an urban area versus a rural area, which is a major disadvantage.

Moving to regulatory issues, a change in the regulatory regime must take place and there must be a review of how the investment required in fibre optic and high-speed broadband networks is managed by ComReg. To put this in context vis-à-vis where we are at now, we have seen an asymmetric regulation approach being taken with the unbundling of local loops at a price to facilitate competition. That has not been without cost to the general benefit of the market.

As Eli Noam, a professor at Columbia University has observed, European regulatory regimes are more committed to unbundling at low prices but there is a trade-off because it lowers investment in infrastructure, which is what we have seen in Ireland and across the European Union. It is no coincidence that since the liberalisation of the telecoms market in Ireland and the introduction of the regulatory regime that we have, we have begun to lag behind our international peers when it comes to investment in infrastructure. We are all well versed in the reasons for that but we must accept it as the position we are in.

What we have seen emerge from the European Union is a change in this asymmetric regulatory approach whereby an existing incumbent must unbundle or make its network available to competition at a price. At EU level there is an acceptance that fibre optic — the future of telecommunications — is riskier and more expensive, therefore, incentives for investment and regulatory certainty are required. Major telecommunications companies which are prepared to invest in fibre must be given an opportunity to realise a fair return on that investment. It remains to be seen what model emerges from the European Union but it would represent a shift from the current approach, to which ComReg has been a party.

Germany has been an advocate of this approach and Chancellor Merkel recently said that if policy was only directed towards keeping costs low for consumers, it would never lead to those who lived far from the big centres being able to benefit. As of now, Eircom offers its services and network at a price but is denied the opportunity to invest and develop the network we all deserve. This state of affairs has been reflected in the United Kingdom where Ofcom has put in place a plan to stimulate high speed broadband development. BT has agreed to spend €1.5 billion to upgrade its copper network but has only done so on the basis that Ofcom will allow it to set its wholesale price. By setting the price at which it makes its network available to its competitors, BT knows it can make a return on its investment. This is a major shift in the regulatory position and one that must be adopted in Ireland. Ofcom believes superfast broadband represents one of the most important developments in modern telecommunications markets for decades and this policy illustrates how seriously it treats the matter.

People talk about the development of a next generation network but that is only half the story. The challenge is next generation network access. There is already a fibre optic network of sorts on this island as Eircom has a significant amount. The joint committee will have heard from other groups on this subject such as ALTO which attended a recent meeting as a representative of a number of alternative operators. These operators have various chunks of fibre network, as do the ESB, Bord Gáis and the NRA but they are the backhaul network and represent only one half of the story. It is vital to develop the network into a key piece of national infrastructure but the challenge is how to get it into people's homes. To that end, we need to look at the existing Eircom infrastructure. All too often we hear that Eircom is part of the problem but we argue that it is part of the solution. To supply high speed broadband to people's homes, their kerbs and doorsteps, we need a national infrastructure which we have in the form of Eircom's network. If it is built in the right way, the existing network can deliver high speed broadband access to a huge part of the country. Some sections will have to access high speed broadband via alternative methods for various physical, geographical reasons but it would be a travesty to ignore the existing network.

We need a clear strategic view from the Government of how it will realise a true, next generation network that will leave nobody behind and help secure the economic and social future of the country by treating high speed broadband as a utility. The Department issued a consultation paper last year and we await the next stage in the consultation process, as does the rest of the industry. In its absence we have no vision and no strategic approach. There needs to be a realisation on the part of the Government that leaving the provision of a next generation network solely to the private sector will not be enough to deliver the vision, given our dispersed rural population. State intervention will be required and the nature and extent of that intervention will provide clarity for the marketplace in order that Eircom and other operators can weigh in behind it and structure their investment plans around it.

As stated, a revised regulatory approach to NGNs is required. Such an approach must recognise that this phase of the evolution of the telecommunications market is based on a new business model. It must also facilitate sustainable competition in the long term because this will allow companies to make a return on their investment that is fair. The latter is a key aspect. Unfortunately, the telecommunications market is not in a position to create sustainable investment in respect of its future. As a result, any new regulatory regime must allow for this. If, as has been suggested, an open-access approach is pursued, we suggest it is vital that the same principle of a fair price should encourage future investment. The asymmetric model is not suited to the early stages of developing a high speed broadband network. As stated, the digital divide must be embraced as a critical obstacle to a fair and balanced development of the economy and society. The digital divide as outlined is a serious impediment to job creation, SME development and the creation of a balanced society in which people have equal access to services. I am sure I am preaching to the converted when I say this. However, it is a very real challenge when one considers the geography of the country in which we live.

It is important to note that studies have identified a significant correlation between a nation's broadband quality and its advancement as a knowledge economy. That is what we are claiming to be — a dynamic knowledge economy. Any failure in Government policy to deal with the challenge of the digital divide would send a message to those citizens affected that they cannot participate in the knowledge economy. In our view, it would also represent a damning betrayal of the principle that nobody should be left behind.

I thank members for their time and patience and look forward to answering their questions.

I apologise for my late arrival. I thank our guests for their extremely valuable presentation which has given members a great deal of food for thought. As public representatives, we spend a great deal of time talking and listening to people. Much of the information we receive is anecdotal in nature. In the context of the data relating to broadband, it appears our abilities are underdeveloped in assessing the position in an accurate manner. As a result, the anecdotal information to which I refer is probably quite valuable in that regard.

I represent County Wicklow which has some large urban areas but the topography of which gives rise to particular problems. It is not solely as a result of geography that there are difficulties. What our guests stated resonates with me and, I am sure, other members, as we have all raised issues relating to the areas we represent. The principles of equality of access, quality of service and a reasonable cost appear to be those which our guests would highlight as necessary to underpin any strategy relating to broadband and its future development.

Our guests have made the point that high speed broadband is essential infrastructure and should be treated as a utility. This raises the issue of what we should do with regard to Eircom. It is clear that its privatisation did not work, particularly in the context of that which it failed to deliver. I am not interested in bashing Eircom; I am merely trying to establish how we might move forward. There is, for example, a strong argument in favour of nationalising Eircom but our guests did not refer to this. They referred to funding and I do not believe anyone would argue with regard to the need for State intervention. It is our responsibility to decide how such an intervention would be achieved but I would be interested in our guests' views on the matter. There is a network in place which has proved to be extremely problematic. In addition, the company has a major debt and its background is extremely unsatisfactory. If our guests have an opinion on the matter, I would be interested in hearing it.

Figures from the Department indicate that some 20,000 households will still be without broadband following completion of the national broadband scheme. Will our guests indicate whether it will be possible to provide these households with broadband services?

Another issue that often arises is that of mobile broadband, which is where the growth is happening. The question is whether this is the future or whether it is simply that people do not have any real choice so this is what they are choosing. There are quite a few limitations on mobile broadband which need to be considered.

With regard to the idea that the national broadband scheme is purely complementary to wired broadband, I presume the witnesses mean that wired broadband is essential infrastructure. However, they are not suggesting that every part of the country would have wired broadband. Is that correct? I presume there are parts of the country where this is not feasible.

On the role of ComReg, the impression I got from the witnesses is that the concentration on unbundling at low prices is retarding development. The logic of what they are saying is that the customer should be paying more in order to allow for development of the infrastructure. I had not been aware that Irish prices for customers are lower than elsewhere but, if that is the case, I would be interested to know it. I am very aware that we are lagging behind, that all the great promises were not realised and that we are in trouble if we do not get a grip on this and have a good strategic approach. Essentially, I understood the CWU representatives to suggest that the price was too low because the investment has not happened and that, essentially, we have to allow the raising of prices and have ComReg become less involved. I understand the problems with Eircom are for other reasons, although what do I know as I am on the outside looking in. Perhaps the witnesses could address this point.

I welcome what was an interesting presentation. I go along with much of what was said but some of the points raised by Deputy McManus are crucial and the CWU will have to come back to us on some issues. I agree with the witnesses' point on Government intervention and agree with their suggestion that the private sector will never deliver to Belmullet, the Black Valley or elsewhere. However, we need to have clarity. We would be buried alive if we were to suggest that unbundling should stop because somebody is not investing in the infrastructure. Deputy McManus' point in this regard is absolutely correct. We need a more sophisticated approach. Perhaps those taking advantage of unbundling who can have access to the copper wire or fibre-optic infrastructure should be required to pay back some of their overall turnover for the development of the infrastructure.

There is no question that the point made by the CWU representatives is correct. I live in north Dublin, some 10 km from Swords and 10 km from Ashbourne, but I cannot get broadband and never will get it on the copper wire as currently installed because nobody will ever invest money in it. There are several options. One is that the private sector might upgrade. When the witnesses refer to upgrading copper wire, do they mean replacing it with fibre-optic cable? Surely, there is no long-term future for copper wire.

I draw attention to what has recently happened in this regard in Australia. The main telecoms company there has been playing ducks and drakes with the Australian Government, as is beginning to happen here, as noted by Deputy McManus. In utter frustration, the Australian Government announced that it will set up its own national fibre-optic infrastructure, which will effectively mean that the main telecoms business will be stuck with its copper wire connections and competing against a new infrastructure. That is a nightmare scenario and I am not sure the Australian Government will go through with it, although it has made the announcement. If such an announcement was made here, the impact on every aspect of what the witnesses have just described would be unbelievable.

Another possibility is that the State would buy back some of Eircom. While I do not foresee this happening, I would like to have it explored by the witnesses. The reference to low costs is not helpful. Costs are not low here. I know what is being said, namely, that companies are unbundling in order to create low-cost telephony services in Ireland. That may well be what they are saying but we should also acknowledge that in this country we are paying top dollar for mobile and other communications services, as well as broadband.

This is a big question and the groups involved must take a political line. I do not want to lecture the delegates and agree with the points they are making, but somebody must outline the options. I recall that when telecoms were nationalised, the delegates' union, in particular, brought in experts from the United States and other places who pointed to the problems which would to be created. They were correct about all of them; something like that must be done again.

Government intervention could occur through nationalisation, lumping money into Eircom, demanding money from those taking advantage of unbundling, or the State putting in place a brand new fibre optic structure. It could also occur through the involvement of bodies such as the National Roads Authority which has conduits for fibre optics along all the main roads which it is not allowed to fill, or Bord Gáis which could bring them all the way to north Mayo if it was allowed to place them in the conduits already part of the pipe system. The electricity companies could do the same in various places.

There are challenges and difficulties and I do not know the answer to them. As Deputy McManus indicated, we are public representatives who listen and try to work our way through the issues involved. The delegates need to make hard decisions and indicate where we are going.

I welcome our colleagues. I mainly agree with Deputy McManus who put her finger on a few issues. We have known about the difficulties with broadband for the past 15 years and many contributions have been made about Eircom in debates in the Seanad, including by Senator O'Toole and others. Many share my belief that the privatisation of Telecom Éireann was a mistake. It goes back to what Deputy McManus said — that the sharks went into the company and robbed the place. People had a salary of €3 million plus bonuses which were meant to be performance related but the people concerned were underperforming.

I respect my colleagues and the work they do but what input did the union have during the years to financial forecasting and forecasting in general with regard to the company? The CWU is a partner in the company; we now have what is the fourth owner of Eircom, or Telecom Éireann as it was known. It is not just about broadband, as the quality of service received by the public from Eircom is disgraceful. The public has lost confidence in the company. For example, if somebody needs to have a telephone repaired, God knows when it will happen; it is the same if a person wants to have a telephone installed. People have been on to me because it takes months to have a telephone installed, even in the middle of the city. The company is not providing a service. Eircom was built with taxpayers' money from the days of P&T. What guarantee would the taxpayer have if the Government were to pump money into it, as a Chinese company could end up owning it tomorrow? Would the people behind such a company rip it off and run off?

When I was there, we had worker directors in the CWU. What role did they play in monitoring the position as we progressed? Eircom has lost its way. Even taking into account customer service, I receive an amount of complaints from constituents who cannot get anybody on the other end of the telephone line. There are staff working in the customer service department who are not sufficiently well trained to deal with the public. I am told it is difficult to understand or converse with the company and that it does not have any regard for its customers. We can talk all we like about the Government having to invest in broadband but we should address the basics, namely the provision of services to customers. The union has a role to play as it is part of the partnership process. What role did the union actually play?

I welcome the delegation. The joint committee met ComReg and other bodies and we are all singing the same tune. I represent a rural constituency which lacks broadband and adequate communications services. Deputy McManus and others are correct in saying that, while geography accounts for some areas not having the service, some areas very close to where we are today cannot get them.

I pay tribute to the workers in the former Department of Posts and Telegraphs. It is regrettable that the previous company was privatised. What are we left with? We are left with a demoralised workforce. I have met employees who are very angry. They drive around in Eircom vans and are challenged by people who cannot get a telephone because they live on a new housing estate. We heard different excuses in years past, such as the one that a pole could not be put up in a scenic area, but now it seems the company does not care. Nowadays, if people cannot get a telephone, that is it.

Staff must cover many provinces and I have a neighbour who works in the exchanges and has to travel almost 100 miles on his job. The company does not have the requisite number of staff and the people who took over plundered a good company. Poles are falling across roads and wires hang down into ditches and on to roads.

I welcome the CWU and commend the delegates on their honest presentation. A great deal of hard talking has to be done and many guarantees would have to be given if somebody else took over the company. I am not a fan of nationalisation but for vital parts of infrastructure, such as broadband, it is not all about profits. My own village has been promised broadband every three months for the past two years and I have now been told we will never get it as Eircom has no money, even though the enabling equipment is in place. It is terrible to tell people they will have broadband in March, then in June, then September, November and so on and finally that they will not get it at all. It is not acceptable. I do not blame the union but they are partners and it is a shame that a good company has been laid to waste.

The delegates mentioned Government support but could they outline in detail the form that support would take? They said it was not possible to supply a fixed line to every household in the country and that wireless broadband was complementary to the fixed line. What solutions do the delegates suggest for areas where people will never have a fixed line?

The delegates made the comparison with BT in the UK, which has now been mandated to set its own tariff for the wholesale supply of broadband. If the same model were to apply to Ireland, what level of increase would there be in the tariffs Eircom is being paid for the wholesale supply of broadband? Perhaps Mr. Delany will comment and we can then return to Deputy Coveney.

That is fine. I take the opportunity to apologise for my late arrival.

Mr. Terry Delany

On the points raised by Senator Brady, at the risk of stating the obvious, it is important to point out that we are not here as flag-wavers for Eircom, a privately owned company. We represent a significant number of its employees. As stated, however, we also represent people who work for BT, O2, Meteor and Vodafone, companies which are among Eircom's largest competitors.

Senator Brady inquired about the union's role in financial forecasting. Like any other union, we are obliged to do business with hard-nosed business people. God knows, we have dealt with a variety of people in Eircom, particularly when one considers that the ownership of the company has changed hands on several occasions in recent years. The Senator is correct to state the quality of service being provided by Eircom does not reach the level one would expect. I do not want to engage in scoring political points. However, it is important to highlight the fact that this is the end product of transferring a public utility into private ownership. The priority of those involved in the private sector is to make money. Successive owners of Eircom have loaded the company with debt. As a result, its overall debt stands at over €4 billion.

On the one hand, the unions are continually obliged to try to ensure security for their members, while, on the other, they must ensure a service is delivered to the public. At the same time, unions must also engage in discussions — as is the case at present — with a view to reducing the number of employees. The CWU has just signed off on an agreement — I highlight this not in the interests of complaining but rather to demonstrate the atmosphere in Eircom — under which our members will not receive a pay increase or bonuses for the next two years. They have been written to by the company in respect of their taking pay cuts and agreeing to a range of other measures that will have a detrimental effect on their earnings. What is envisaged by the company will result in a significant reduction in their earnings. Eircom's actions in this regard are aimed at achieving one result, namely, trying to service the enormous debt it has accumulated as a result of successive changes of ownership.

As stated, we are not here to flag-wave on behalf of Eircom. However, in defence of those who work in the company's customer service division, it is my understanding that its call centres are regarded as some of the best in existence. The company has won several awards in respect of customer service.

The union has not made a decision on the question of nationalisation. We are of the view that a wider debate is required on the direction of the debate on broadband and Eircom's role in this matter. We are concerned that Eircom is seen as part of the problem. We are of the view that it should be seen as part of the solution. Regardless of whether the latter is achieved by means of nationalisation, it may seem unusual for me to say this — particularly when one considers that heretofore unions would have been to the forefront in advocating nationalisation — but there is a need to consider which model will best serve the economy. Mr. Browne will comment in detail on the position in other countries. However, the union has not yet made a decision on what might be the best model.

Deputy Coveney might appreciate the fact that an unusual situation arose recently when some of our executive people who are members of the Socialist Party wrote to us and advocated at a meeting that we should take the Fine Gael line on this matter. There appears to be no end to Fine Gael's capacity to embrace everybody.

Mr. Delany referred to the need for a debate. I agree with his assertion in that regard and I am of the view that the various options should be considered. However, who should lead the debate? Should the Minister establish a working group to examine the options and issue a report? Would the CWU be in favour of this or does it have something else in mind?

Mr. Terry Delany

At the risk of sounding evasive, the committee would have a major role to play in trying to set the tone for such a debate. We have had meetings with the Minister. Some of that engagement has been positive but where we part company is that we believe the Minister's view of the world is that it should be left to the market. He has placed huge emphasis on two aspects, first, to leave it to the market and let the best man win, and, second, a huge reliance on mobile broadband. The quality of mobile broadband is as yet questionable and whether it will reach the quality claimed by the Minister in the coming years is very debatable — there is a big debate to be had in the industry in this regard.

Mr. Ian McArdle

Deputy McManus referred to the anecdotal evidence and the difficulty of establishing the veracity of the claims that have been made by the general public vis-à-vis broadband access——

It is the claims of the Minister I am worried about.

Mr. Ian McArdle

We will have a discussion about those also. I am more concerned about the citizens who cannot get access to broadband.

Senator O'Toole and the Deputy painted a picture of people not that far from a major urban centre not having broadband access. We need honesty in the debate around this issue. An example of where that should and could have played a part is in regard to the map that was developed in advance of the national broadband scheme. I know the committee has heard discussion on this before. Our position would be concurrent with the views the committee has heard. The Department asked various providers to state where they could provide a service, so they claimed a service level that in reality is not provided. That has created a difficulty in terms of where broadband provision is lacking. We know every county has black spots within it where broadband is not delivered and will not be delivered but these areas do not come under the national broadband scheme because they are in theory covered under this famous map. To begin with, there needs to be honesty in the debate before we can understand what the country genuinely needs. However, I agree that, anecdotally, many people have complaints about broadband provision, whether by Eircom, BT, the mobile companies or otherwise.

The Deputy asked whether mobile broadband is the future. It definitely has a role and the speeds available for mobile broadband will increase. As my colleague Mr. Delany said, we represent O2, Meteor and Vodafone, among others. Our concerns would be that it has a limitation. Fibre is generally accepted as being the way of the future if we are serious about all the applications that can be delivered by high speed broadband. While mobile broadband certainly has a role, it is more a complementary role. Many business people would make good use of mobile broadband and, on that basis, would understand its limitations.

The Deputy also asked whether we suggested that wired broadband should be available everywhere. We are cognisant that there will be limitations and we are not proposing it would replace the copper network. My colleague, Mr. Jim Browne, will comment on that aspect. The further down the network that fibre can travel increases the potential speeds delivered by the existing copper network, subject to investment because, clearly, investment is required in the existing copper network because of what has happened in recent times.

The Deputy also asked about our views on ComReg and local loop unbundling. We are very much aware of the cost of telecoms here and we know where Ireland stands in terms of the international league tables on costs. We are not proposing that we increase those costs by changing or increasing the local loop unbundling. It is possible to change the way local loop unbundling has happened to allow Eircom to accrue a greater return on its investment without pushing up the prices. That would ultimately——

What does that mean?

Mr. Ian McArdle

What that ultimately means is that the margins earned by the people feeding off the Eircom network would be squeezed.

To be clear, local loop unbundling represents a fairly small proportion of the development of the telecoms market. The debate we need to have refers to the next stage, which will ultimately overcome that concept of local loop unbundling. If, for example, we were to opt for the local open access network with Eircom as the key piece of national infrastructure, with the likes of BT Ireland, Colt Telecom, Magnet and the other operators contributing their piece of network technologies to build a genuine national infrastructure, that would change the debate in terms of how the operators earn. They are competing for customers rather than network. That is ultimately how the issue will probably develop.

It is integrated.

Mr. Ian McArdle

Exactly. It is an integrated approach.

Have all Deputy McManus's questions been answered?

Mr. Ian McArdle

I was going to deal with a couple more.

I apologise, I will contribute.

Mr. Ian McArdle

I have several other brief points. Deputy Nolan asked about government support and as my colleague, Mr. Delany, outlined, we have not come up with the magic answer, unfortunately. We have ideas of how it might work in terms of the open access integrated model.

With regard to the UK experience with BT and the change in regulatory regime there, where Ofcom will allow it to get a fair return on its investment, it is unclear if that will bring about a higher charge to the consumer. The market there is quite highly evolved in terms of competition. There are cable operators in Virgin and UPC and they will offer high speed broadband. Whatever BT does in improving its copper network to take fibre more efficiently, it will have to compete with those companies. That is ultimately how we would see the Irish market, with inter-platform competition which will ensure consumers get a fair price.

These companies will invest significant amounts of money and they must make their product attractive to get a return on that investment. BT demonstrated this in the past, if we take Northern Ireland as an example on our own doorstep, when it took a very risky and brave decision to enable virtually all its exchanges throughout Northern Ireland before there was a demand in the market. By enabling the exchanges, it created a demand for its product, which has worked very successfully as there is almost 100% broadband coverage in Northern Ireland and we are very much in the ha'penny place in comparison. It is a demonstration of how it can be done if the initiative and vision is there.

Was State intervention a factor in that?

Mr. Ian McArdle

Ultimately it was. There were 5% or 10% of people who were not able to avail of enabled exchanges and a State tender was initiated in Northern Ireland, which BT won on the basis that it had existing infrastructure and was able to build on to it. That has not happened here, as the national broadband scheme will go to the Hong Kong company, 3. I will hand over to my colleague, Mr. Jim Browne, to deal with some of the technical points.

Mr. Jim Browne

To return to Deputy McManus's points about technical solutions, there is no doubt that fibre will not go to every home. In that case we must look to some of the other solutions that are mainly in development stages. There is a fondness in the Minister's public comments for 4G, which is only a dream for technologists. It is not in place and will probably not be until 2013, 2014 or 2015. The big three of Vodafone, Deutsch Telekom and France Telecom have put any talk of 4G on hold until at least 2012, so it is a long way off and will not deliver a solution to put this country in a position to avail of an economic upturn and become the knowledge economy that people speak about.

Of the technologies available, the current drive in mobile broadband is for long-term evolution networks, which will provide pretty fast speeds but will always suffer from contention. If a bus takes 42 people, that is all it takes; we cannot fit 52 people on it. That is how base stations will work with 4G, or the 3G we have available.

There is WiMAX, which is still being developed and tested extensively in 1,000 rural towns and villages in Brittany and the Pyrenees in France. The killer blow for radio has always been physical obstruction and the Deputy mentioned the topography of Wicklow. It damages the effectiveness and climatic conditions can sometimes have an effect. The WiMAX standard was agreed in 2005 and it will provide somewhere between 1Mb and 20 Mb. That is not in place and will not be for quite a while. It certainly cannot compete with fibre to the home.

That leaves fibre and copper. If one runs fibre out to the closest cabinet point within 1.5 km of the recipient it will produce 25 MW, which will be enough for IPTV, video and all the things people say should be available in the residential market. However, not every place will be within range so the solution is to use a blend. The costs of fibre are coming down and Firecomms in Cork has done extensive research on developing silicon which can deliver fibre type bandwidth over pliable plastic. The company has recently received investment support from Swisscom.

The Government of Portugal has made available a credit line of €800 million to its telecommunications players to invest in network infrastructure upgrade. To date four of the major companies in Portugal have signed up. The Government guarantees borrowings for companies which need €200 million or €300 million purely for infrastructural development and that is one way of attracting private investment. It is fine to talk about costs to the customer but unless there is a return, no supplier will invest in the infrastructure the country needs and that is the real problem. Eircom does bits and pieces and UPC is upgrading its cables, but unless the infrastructure is consistently upgraded it will hit contention problems, which will affect service.

France Telecom and SFR have carved up regions of Paris between them. Each has committed to upgrade its respective area and the customers then choose from which company they decide to buy services. The decision not to upgrade in the same place is important from an infrastructure point of view. In the United States there is the Alliance for Digital Equality, of which the communications workers union of America is part. As Mr. McArdle said, it is advocating an €8 billion spend on infrastructure to develop 10 MW broadband to all users by 2010. It will probably not happen but it is the right policy. Technical solutions can evolve in this way, though the policy solutions are perhaps more difficult.

What are the delegates' views on the salaries and bonuses of CEOs? We do not have worker directors any more but what was their role?

We do not want to go down that road today as this presentation is on a separate matter. Perhaps we will raise it at another time.

I apologise for not being present for the presentation but my absence was unavoidable as I was involved in a small political emergency this morning. I have read the presentation. The pledge the union is asking candidates for the European Parliament to sign makes sense and our candidates will sign it.

I have a question on the delegates' call for broadband to be in the category of universal service obligation. How would it work in terms of pricing? Does it mean the price of broadband on the Dingle Peninsula would be the same as in Dublin 4, as is the case with, for example, the cost of a postage stamp? If, as I understand it, the delegates advocate the universal service obligation as a way of ensuring adequate speeds of next generation broadband are available to everybody in the country, it is something to which we would all want to sign up.

We have been vocal in respect of our concerns with regard to the national broadband scheme having the capacity required to deliver the speeds that will be required in five or six years' time. I share others concerns with regard to fourth generation, 4G, networks but I am willing to give mobile technology an opportunity. Let us see how it develops. We are already committed to the national broadband scheme and cannot reverse it. I am not sure my party would have structured it in quite the same way but we must proceed with it regardless.

Fine Gael's approach to the roll-out of broadband infrastructure is quite different from that of the Government. We are of the view that the State must take a far more direct and proactive role in providing a wholesale infrastructure product to try to facilitate private sector competition at a retail and service level in respect of existing broadband infrastructure and NGNs. We are also of the view that the only way this can be done is by the State making investments, with a 20 to 25-year return, in a regulated item of infrastructure. It is extremely difficult to encourage those involved in the private sector to do this. One can attract a great deal of private sector money, from private pension funds, to that kind of infrastructural investment. This is particularly true because those who operate pension funds love utilities because they give rise to guaranteed returns over long periods. There is an indication that there is probably up to €6 billion of private pension fund money to be invested in utilities in Ireland. Fine Gael is of the opinion that broadband is one of the areas, with energy and water, that can drive this investment.

Our guests are probably familiar with our document, Rebuilding Ireland, which essentially proposes that the State should establish a new company to create the finance to invest — for a 20 to 25-year return — in broadband infrastructure. In the context of that new State company, Fine Gael would advocate trying to buy back Eircom as a company or else trying to purchase its infrastructure to facilitate what we want, namely, a State-owned web of broadband infrastructure that would link with the metropolitan area networks, MANs, 59 of which are still not lit up. This web would also link with the other fibre and copper infrastructure which, through the ESB, Bord Gáis, the National Roads Authority, NRA, Iarnród Éireann, etc., is already in State ownership. A great deal of this infrastructure is owned by the companies to which I refer and it is not being managed in a co-ordinated way. Much of it has not been lit up. It was merely put in place because it was cheap to include it while other infrastructure was being put in place. Surely it would make sense for the State to put a company in place which would be specifically charged with managing and marketing the infrastructure already in place. If the Eircom infrastructure could be added to the latter, we would be starting our investment programme from a really positive standpoint. We could, by means of the new State company to which I refer, build bridges between items of infrastructure. There are towns which have MANs and BT and Eircom infrastructure, all located within 100 yards of each other but the three are not linked. That is madness.

My party is not pushing political ideology in respect of this matter; we are trying to take a pragmatic approach. Everyone uses the Eircom example as an argument against the privatisation of any State company. I do not really buy into it. However, I strongly contend that the privatisation of Eircom was a huge mistake. I am not stating it will not be possible to privatise some State companies at some point in the future. However, the difficulty arises where successive owners of privatised State companies seek short-term gains. To obtain them, they increase the debt within a company which increasingly makes it weaker.

I congratulate the CWU with regard to the extremely tough decisions that will be necessary within Eircom to keep it afloat. However, I am concerned that those lined up to purchase the company are venture capitalists who are seeking, at most, a four-year flip-over, when they will sell on the company and make a quick profit of €60 million, €70 million or €100 million. That has been the experience to date. Instead, we need the State to take ownership of this and to say honestly that in the absence of this, the State will in any case have to roll out a parallel infrastructure because the current financial model for Eircom simply does not allow for the kind of capital investment that is required, unless I am missing something. This is a comment rather than a question.

We are trying in a very practical way to pursue a means by which we can collectively manage all State-owned infrastructure and then add to that by adding the Eircom infrastructure. We would then have a starting point for rolling out the necessary programme of investment in the next 20 years, which is about putting fibre into the ground and providing open access to ducting to allow others to do this if they wish. In a country the size of Ireland, one will not get much competition in terms of wholesale infrastructure provision but one could have a great deal of competition if one had a platform which the private sector operators could operate on and compete with each other on service, products, price and all the rest. This is what we are trying to do.

I am not asking the CWU to support the Fine Gael position but I hope it will support that type of approach towards providing the kind of infrastructure we need. What the witnesses say is true — we are falling behind. Every time I raise this issue with the Minister, the reply is that more and more people are using broadband and, therefore, we are succeeding, which is a nonsensical argument. Everybody knows that more and more people are using broadband in Ireland but that is not the point. The point is that the world is moving on to a next generation platform that we are not moving on to, except in specific urban areas or where there is direct fibre into industrial estates. That is where we need to catch up. It is a different emphasis. The current Government approach is that "the market will provide the solutions". We very much question this and put forward an alternative vision.

Mr. Ian McArdle

Deputy Coveney's points are well made and not without merit. While I do not want to commit us to adopting the Fine Gael position, as he said——

I am not looking for that.

Mr. Ian McArdle

We have read Fine Gael's broadband 21 position paper, which is very interesting and definitely has merit, and is not 1 million miles from what we think is one of the solutions that might have to be considered in terms of bringing together the existing backhaul network. We have two concerns with the position as outlined in that document. First, it talks of building a backhaul network to compete with Eircom, which seems to be the mistake that was made in the past with the development of the MANs, which were built to compete with Eircom but have not really fulfilled that potential. Second, the document suggests we do not want to duplicate investment, which seems to suggest it might happen. I take Deputy Coveney's point that Fine Gael would consider nationalisation or acquisition of Eircom's assets, which we would also consider. As Mr. Delany said, Eircom has to be considered part of the solution, not part of the problem. We are of the view that while bringing together a fairly comprehensive backhaul network is definitely a challenge, the key challenge is, having done that, to deliver to the end user — the consumer. The Eircom network definitely has a role in regard to that delivery system.

The Deputy referred to the national broadband scheme. The point we made in our presentation was that we have concerns about the scheme but, as the Deputy rightly said, the scheme is in place and that is the situation we are in. The laws of physics speak for themselves in terms of latency and all of the issues one would associate with the platform being used. We were simply making the point that we see that technology as being complementary to a fixed line solution but not a solution in itself. It should only be used in the most extreme circumstances because clearly the potential of the national broadband scheme and that platform to deliver the speeds that will be required to achieve high speed broadband are not there at this juncture. There may be developments in mobile broadband that deliver that speed in the future but at present that technology is not available. I think Deputy Coveney's point is well made on the claims by the Minister that more people are using broadband. In Ireland we include mobile broadband when we collate those statistics, whereas most other economic observers would take mobile broadband out of that mix.

That is a political argument that does not solve anything. People are arguing over figures and not discussing the issue that needs to be discussed. Mr. McArdle is correct that most countries do not count mobile broadband.

Mr. Ian McArdle

The Deputy commenced with comments on the universal service obligation, USO, and the pledges that the CWU is asking election candidates to sign up to. We consider the universal service obligation to be a service that should be priced equally across the country in the same way that the postal service charges one price for a stamp to every destination in the country. That will require some form of cross-subsidy because the further one is from the centre, the more expensive it gets to provide the service. That is the basis for the universal service obligation in the current fixed line business, and it is run up to a point, but with certain limitations, in that way. The universal service obligation would obviously require a review of the regulatory outlook being adopted by ComReg in terms of how it regulates the marketplace. We feel that is the way it will go in Europe and that the European Union will adopt broadband as part of the USO as part of the 2010 initiative where it is looking to get 30% of the population in Europe signed up to high speed broadband as part of the Lisbon Agenda to get more and better jobs in Europe.

That remains to be seen but we are familiar with the broadband 21 position paper and there is merit in what is being proposed in it.

Mr. Jim Browne

Let me comment on universal service obligation. The universal service obligation relates to investment and who pays for what. Providing a broadband service is not the issue, but providing the infrastructure for such a service is the question at issue. That might seem like a very subtle difference. When one asks what it will cost to provide a good broadband service to a person in a remote place, providing the broadband service is the easy bit. However, an issue for public policy on investment in the future of the network, is how one separates the cost of the infrastructure from the cost of the service. If one chooses the route of an umbrella company that provides infrastructure, then one deals with the issue of infrastructure and the operators compete as broadband suppliers.

That is what we are trying to achieve, but there are roadblocks. The universal service obligation will become a big political issue should people living in rural Ireland be asked to pay more for a service than those living in Dublin. There would be uproar if we were to suggest that those in rural areas should pay more for their stamps than people in Dublin because it costs more to deliver a letter to them. That issue will be relevant to the debate on broadband. As satellites provide broadband to Bere Island, which is costing more than the product in Cork city, there must be cross-subsidisation from one private company to another private company providing different services in different areas. That is a complex regulatory model to try to implement, unlike the postal market where they are fewer operators. That is an issue that must be examined. I did not have a clear understanding as to how that would work and that was the only issue I had with the pledge that candidates were being asked to sign.

On behalf of the joint committee, I thank Mr. Delany and his colleagues, Mr. McArdle, Mr. Browne and Mr. O'Flynn for their very enlightening contribution on this issue. We have all learned something from it. Senator Joe O'Toole asked me to apologise on his behalf for being unable to remain for the answers but he was speaking in the Seanad.

The joint committee adjourned at 11.10 a.m. until 9.45 a.m. on Wednesday, 10 June 2009.
Top
Share