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JOINT COMMITTEE ON COMMUNICATIONS, MARINE AND NATURAL RESOURCES (Sub-Committee on Information Communications Technology) debate -
Wednesday, 4 Jun 2003

Vol. 1 No. 13

Telecommunications Services: Presentation.

Before we begin I wish to advise that, at the inaugural meeting of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Communications, Marine and Natural Resources it was agreed to set up an ICT sub-committee. The joint committee has sent the following motions to the ICT sub-committee: that the sub-committee should examine, consider and report to the joint committee on all aspects of the provision of a national high-speed broadband infrastructure, including the cost to users; and that the sub-committee should examine, consider and report to the joint committee on the potential to deliver Government business and commerce functions through the national high-speed broadband infrastructure.

In the preparation of a report to the joint committee, the sub-committee invites groups and parties who have an interest in the area of broadband, and the delivery of Government business and commerce functions through the national broadband infrastructure, to make presentations to the sub-committee. The work of the sub-committee will add value to the process as parties to the broadband debate will have a formal opportunity at parliamentary level, to fully inform the debate as to the issues at play in the delivery of a national broadband infrastructure, the cost to users and the potential to deliver Government business and commerce functions.

To assist the sub-committee in its work, Sonas Innovation has been retained as consultant to the sub-committee. Following on from the appointment of the consultant, the work of the sub-committee is being structured in order that the hearing of presentations will take place over four full days with each day being themed as follows: giving users a voice; potential value of broadband to Ireland; current positioning and broadband delivery. Sessions will allow for each person and group taking approximately 30 minutes, ten to 15 minutes of a presentation to be followed by a discussion.

Today's theme gives users a voice and we will hear presentations from Mr. Tom Cahill from the Independent National Data Centre, Mr. John McAleer from the South West Regional Authority, Mr. Rory Ardagh from Leap Broadband, Ms Nana Luke, director of E-Training International and chairperson of Telework Ireland, Mr. Eddie Sadlier from Tymon Bawn community group, Tallaght, Mr. Robert Fitzsimons from Irelandwan, Mr. David Long from Ireland Offline, Ms Deirdre Matthews, Ms Annie O'Connell and Ms Ruth Devine from St. Vincent's secondary school in Dundalk and Ms Ursula O'Sullivan from the Southern Health Board. We also have Mr. Séamus Dooley from the NUJ and Mr. Donal Ó Braonáin from the RTE group of unions. I welcome all of them.

Before asking Mr. Cahill to begin, I draw everybody's attention to the fact that members of this committee have absolute privilege but this same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. It is generally accepted that witnesses will have qualified privilege but the committee cannot guarantee any level of privilege to witnesses appearing before it. Further, members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise, or make charges against a person outside the House or any official by name in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

The format to be employed is that each person or group will have approximately 30 minutes, ten to 15 minutes for presentation followed by questions by a member of the sub-committee. To ensure the efficient work of this process, it has been agreed that the questioning will be confined to an agreed member of the sub-committee. However, as Chairman, I will permit each member, if he or she requires, one concluding question at the end of every session. At the conclusion of each session, I will suspend the meeting for five minutes to allow retiring groups to vacate the room and the next group to assemble.

I now call Mr. Cahill who raises some interesting points on the usage and potential of broadband within the health sector. I thank him for forwarding copies of his presentation. They have been useful and have been circulated to the members of the committee.

Mr. Tom Cahill

Thank you. I will just launch straight into my presentation which is a simple representation of the experience we have gained to date. It includes some comments-visions as to how broadband might develop over the next couple of years. I have not put down everything in detail but can do so if the sub-committee wishes.

My background is evident from the presentation so I will not rehearse it. The reason I might be qualified to speak on Internet applications driving the need for broadband is evidenced from my current role and from previous experience with Interxion, ETP and Music Control. Where I come from in terms of broadband is very much from the perspective of Internet or web-based applications.

The role which I currently perform as data controller in the Independent National Data Centre is subsidiary to that of Heartwatch. Heartwatch is a term used to summarise what is called the initial implementation phase of a national strategy on primary care for the secondary prevention of cardiovascular disease. The initial implementation phase runs through 2003 into early 2004. It is a sub-strategy of Ireland's Changing Heart, the national cardiovascular strategy which was launched on 27 March by the Minister for Health and Children. The stakeholders of Heartwatch, in other words, the sub-committee members, are representative of the Department of Health and Children, the ten health boards, the Irish Heart Foundation and the Irish College of General Practitioners. Two small working groups combine to deliver the targets of Heartwatch. They are, the National Programme Centre and the Independent National Data Centre. To all intents and purposes, the Independent National Data Centre is the ICT - information communications technology - department of Heartwatch.

The targets for Heartwatch, the primary care national cardiovascular strategy for secondary prevention are: to reduce mortality by 15% among Heartwatch-registered patients and to improve the levels of morbidity among patients. There are 480 GPs and 14,000 patients in the initial implementation phase. Out of a national group of approximately 2,200 GPs, approximately 480 are in this year's programme. We anticipate that by the end of 2004, those GPs will have registered in the region of 14,000 Heartwatch patients.

The selection of GPs was biased towards computerised practices using practice management software packages. Some 80% of the GPs selected had to have computerised practices. Of the remaining 20%, half were to be computerised as part of the programme. All data returned by GPs is stripped of any identifying information regarding the patients. The INDC receives no indication of patient identity. All data regarding GPs' performance, health care administration, and so on, is aggregated. Confidentiality, privacy and security of data is thus preserved. That is provided for in the Heartwatch programme and also in the contracts between GPs and their health boards and in the consent form signed by patients.

When we started in November 2002, the ideal would have been to set up a national centralised database for participating GPs; national centralised applications that would ensure we could provide security and backup. Such Internet applications bring about a requirement for broadband infrastructure. It is not possible to support Internet applications of this kind on anything less than a proper broadband infrastructure. There must also be a GP practice infrastructure with firewall routing equipment and other backup procedures in order to be on-line.

The GP practice and PC hardware environment as well as the operating system is by and large very inconsistent, outdated and is not maintained. Security and backup procedures, specifically considering the GP in his or her legal role as data controller of patient data, are similarly inconsistent and perhaps not up to date. The vendors of practice management software, while accredited according to a set of standards, are involved only to the extent of supporting their own software packages but not to the extent of supporting the GP practice IT system. The IT support and maintenance is, by and large, either partial or non-existent. User skills are not a priority and use of the Internet is quite commonly forbidden in general practice for security reasons.

In rolling out the ICT infrastructure for GPs participating in Heartwatch, the INDC has a number of dependencies. These include the clinical data set that was to be rolled out to GPs - in other words, the data to be collected on Heartwatch patients for the purposes of the programme; and the practice management software vendors and their packages. The clinical data set and the files produced by those data sets by GPs are in monthly reports sent to the INDC by GPs. A third dependency is the Internet. There is often a very simple connection to the Internet in the practices. IT support is a fourth dependency. In general practice, wherever there are changes in or installation of software or where there is conflicting software, IT support is a necessity that is very often not available. Security and backup is also required with the roll-out of new applications and databases.

Hard decisions were made because towards the end of last year, the INDC and the Heartwatch programme felt it would not be possible to roll out the programme in time. They felt that they had to develop and roll out their own client application referred to as the interim tool. This has since been upgraded. General IT support for the interim tool is also something that has to be delivered.

The operating environment in the INDC is a very simple centralised hosted database accessed via the Internet by GP practices. Monthly report files are uploaded on a monthly basis for the patients seen during that month. The uploaded data is consistent and is according to a standard comprehensive data set The equivalent of 4.5 full-time staff administer this data in the INDC and provide IT support to 480 GPs or approximately 390 GP practices. Service providers for the INDC include hosting and telecoms application, set-up, development and support. The limitations to the existing set-up include the integration of the overall ICT infrastructure with existing practice management software vendor packages. GPs differ from hospital specialists in that what GPs want to provide and what their software packages aim to provide for them and their patients, is a facility for integrated health care which is family based. Any deviation from that such as a dependency on a second or outside database is bound to go against the grain and should be thought out very carefully.

The integration with existing practice management software vendor packages is an ongoing and crucial factor. Any changes to the clinical data set requested by clinicians or GPs, health boards, the Department or any other stakeholder causes quite a ripple effect in that if the data set changes, each of the individual practice management software vendors must update their packages and issue releases as a result. The reaction times of vendors to update their software can be quite considerable. Any adjustments or upgrades to applications themselves form another limitation to the current flexibility of the INDC and Heartwatch from an ICT perspective. Should there ever be - we must anticipate there will be - requirements for trial studies, ad hoc investigations, etc., and should these have a knock-on effect on the data set or the applications, then that too would be limiting. Integration with additional databases is another limitation.

In the medium term there is a need for a more web-based and flexible approach to the roll-out of such national health care programmes that have an ICT dependency. The flexibility of web-based applications being centralised is such that changes to data sets, applications and the integration of systems are much facilitated and need not necessarily introduce any unfavourable factor to the competitive software environment.

Should there be a broadband roll-out and should GP practices be required to switch to broadband connections and be always on, then what has been up to now a pressing need for security and back-up procedures would become an absolute must. That would have significant implications for GP practices, not only in terms of investment, but also in terms of management and ongoing user training etc. Depending on which infrastructure is used for web-based applications, for example Microsoft's ".NET" or any other platform, this too might have implications as regards competitive environment and so on. To put some figures on this, should a GP practice upgrade or introduce a broadband connection to a local area network, it could be from €200 at the low end up to €700 for hardware and maintenance investment per annum. It is no more or less than that. While I appreciate it is quite a wide band, €200 to €700 should cover low end and high end.

There are implications for user skills being on broadband always on-line using web applications. The first and very obvious implication is that people are no longer expected to use a baby Ford variety of computer, where they need to be able to use all kinds of functions, in other words to be able to change the oil in the computer, pump up the tyres, regularly see to spark plugs and occasionally use a crank shaft to start it. With web-based applications, a user can very easily drive a Nissan or a BMW. By that analogy, simple as it might seem, I mean that web-based applications are there to be used rather than administered by users. That is the critical difference. Without disrespect to GP practices and their users, user skills are relatively low compared to other information-based industries.

Apart from the actual router, firewall or security and backup investments, hardware and operating system investments would have to then take place and also be updated regularly as opposed to happening on an ad hoc basis.

There are implications for practice management software vendors, of which there might be between half a dozen and a dozen operating today in Ireland. There must be an acceptance by them that there be a minimum standard of integrated practice management software with a data import functionality from a centralised database. A seamless interface with web-based applications would be required on the GP desktop. While this is speculation and could go one of many ways, there would probably be a long-term transition among some of the PMS vendors to more of an ASP - application service provider - model leaving perhaps the database stuff to INDC-like operations for security and privacy reasons.

The implications for the INDC or other such organisations would be that the dependency on service providers would probably then require the addition of some applications management and some performance monitoring of application servers. However, the cost to the INDC and then to the Department of Health and Children in terms of additional services outsourced would be very marginal. The security of a web-based application could be so managed as to provide a much deeper, more coherent and more consistent level of security for GPs, their patients and for the centre and its database than any upload or portal variety of operation that currently exists.

It is difficult to predict what might happen should matters continue to develop as they are currently developing. In the first scenario all data from GPs on such programmes or perhaps from other health care institutions on similar programmes would be centralised, if not into one point then into regional health board points. If that were to happen, the applications required would almost certainly be Internet applications, which are only viable when there are lots of users. Where Internet applications are being developed, broadband is a must, not an option.

The second scenario is for all data to stay local, which has been the case up to now. GPs, hospitals or health boards, as data controllers, maintain data themselves. Where data stays local, the dependency on Internet applications is lower and, accordingly, the requirement for bandwidth is low. In my view the increasing demand for standard applications in the market in general will ensure that either the data will be centralised into one or several points, or that data will all stay local. I do not believe a combination of these options is sustainable in the longer term.

I welcome Mr. Cahill and thank him for his presentation. At the outset he asked where this would lead, but he did not go into that until the final page of his presentation. Perhaps he could expand on that matter and tie it in with some comments I have. As I am conscious that we are dealing with the technology end, if I stray into asking medical questions, I hope Mr. Cahill will forgive me. It is difficult to differentiate between the two.

What is Mr. Cahill trying to achieve with Heartwatch? It appears that he is basically trying to collate information using the technology available. Whereas many studies have previously been carried out manually on heart disease in different parts of the country over periods of time, is this just doing it in a more technologically advanced way or is it a precursor to what could be done in the future on other diseases?

Mr. Cahill mentioned that 480 out of approximately 2,200 GPs support this programme at the moment. What kind of support is he getting from GPs? Are they enthusiastic about this study? Are they anxious to get on the technological ladder for future use as well? How many of these GP practices are computerised? Is there any way in which people can be encouraged along this route? There may be a problem and, perhaps, some resistance on the part of older GPs who may have no interest, at this stage of their lives, in embracing the technological age. Is that causing a difficulty?

There seems to be a variety of small systems, with no co-ordination. Is there a role for the IMO in trying to pull all this together? Has the Department of Health and Children a role in the matter? Is there a separate software package for GPs and can it be expanded in future? There may be exciting future possibilities. What are the possible future scenarios? I know that is a very difficult question to answer. Is there a resistance from a cost point of view? Many GPs may ask why they should get involved, having regard to the cost. The capital cost is not always the most prohibitive aspect but, rather, the subsequent operating costs.

Having regard to the recent debacle regarding deceased medical card patients - a figure of 40,000 comes to mind - can this technology be used in future to ensure that such records are kept up to date and that such problems do not recur?

Before Mr. Cahill replies, I wish to add three questions. Can the model which has just been outlined for Heartwatch be used for every type of disease found in this country, in conjunction with a central database? Is it envisaged that a pin number will be given to every patient, or every person, so that when we travel abroad or within this country, a doctor can access one's records from a central database? Finally, what is the view of the delegation on the current infrastructure in this country and the way forward?

What the delegation outlined is almost a data collection facility. As a next step, does the delegation envisage interaction through that system, not only as a means of storing information for GPs and their clients but also as a medium through which GPs could get advice and information on certain issues from a central bank of knowledge? For example, if GPs were to be updated on SARS or any other infectious disease, would this system fulfil that function? Would there be an interaction as distinct from a simple data collection facility? If such a facility were to operate, GPs in the regions would obviously need to be linked to broadband, whether via wireless, Internet, satellite or cable systems.

I thank Mr. Cahill for his presentation and I apologise for my late arrival. The outstanding benefit of this structure is centralisation, if that is the route followed, but how is security to be managed? Is it possible to ensure that individual patient records are really secure? With regard to the roll-out of the system, what percentage of the population would be involved in the database at present?

Mr. Cahill

I will deal with the points raised as quickly as possible, taking the questions in order. As to the reason for selecting Heartwatch, Ireland has a very high rate of cardiovascular disease, as is well known. In order to tackle this, the Government decided, with good reason, I believe, to target those patients who already have had bypass, angiogram, angioplasty or other such procedures. This initial strategy is to beat or prevent secondary cardiovascular disease. While there have been studies in certain areas in the Southern Health Board and so on, this is the first time a national programme has been undertaken to, effectively, prevent secondary cardiovascular disease. It is not actually a study, a pilot or a project - it is a national programme.

The idea is that, through GPs registering patients, collecting data and submitting them to a central facility where it will be aggregated and reported on, GP advice would be forthcoming. In other words, there would be support, advice and best practice for treatment of those specific patients. The targets are quite ambitious, arising from pilot trials in the past. While I am not the person to speak of targets in terms of morbidity or mortality, there is discussion on such figures as a 15% reduction in mortality within certain periods of time and improvement in the levels of morbidity in up to 25% of patients.

With regard to support from GPs for the programme, for this initial implementation phase, a maximum of 470 to 480 GPs could be taken onto the programme - that was the extent of the funding. Approximately 1,500 of the 2,200 applied for the programme, indicating an enormous level of enthusiasm. Where, for one reason or another, GPs have had to drop out of the programme - for example, newer practices do not have very many secondary cardiovascular patients - other GPs have been very ready to step in and participate in the programme. The support among GPs is quite outstanding.

As to the number of GPs who have computerised systems, a recent study within the past couple of years showed that over 80% of practices are computerised to some degree. That study was carried out by the GPIT group, under the auspices of the Department of Health and Children, which is run as a programme in the College of General Practitioners. Oddly enough, the early adapters, in terms of upgrading to operating systems and hardware, are the rural practices rather than urban ones. This may contradict MISS somewhat.

On the question as to how to encourage GPs to computerise, if I may put it bluntly, one does this in the usual way - by showing the benefits of upgrading systems, improving user skills, identifying the need for back-up and security and so on. I do not even have an anecdotal example of resistance among older GPs. There are packages for use by GPs in managing their patient health care records - the so-called practice management software packages. Some companies marketing these in Ireland are Quantum Computing and Healthcare Ireland Partners, with their packages - GP clinical and Health 1. There are other packages - GP-Mac, Medicom, Dynamic GP etc. - which are being expanded. In other words, as desktop applications or server applications on local area networks, they are continuously upgraded by the vendors to provide for such programmes and to provide, as far as they can, a package for integrated health care for the GP and his or her staff. The real question is whether they can be made web-based - a technology issue. That is where there is a division of application databases, something I will address.

With regard to costs, the anecdotal evidence is that while many GPs are asking who will pay for it, the reaction is not remarkable. I am not protecting any particular group but any person would question the need for financial outlay. Once that outlay is justified and not a rip-off, however, by and large, GPs will invest if they can see benefit for their practices, value for money and a longer term sustainable infrastructure as a result.

The model for Heartwatch, which is applicable to all the visas, concerns the national cardiovascular strategy. As such, the clinical dataset has been limited to those measurements required for treatment of cardiovascular patients. One of the health boards had an ongoing pilot scheme for diabetes patients. The patients from that health board region had been included in the Heartwatch programme as diabetics, which is a possible first step or learning curve to another disease. However, beyond that, there are no plans to expand beyond cardiovascular and, to a limited degree, diabetes in the context of the Heartwatch programme. There is no public documentation on the next phases beyond Q1-2004 of the Heartwatch programme itself. While there is a commitment to have the programme continue, a budget has not yet been put in place. With regard to the question on additional diseases, the answer is that it could be Heartwatch, the INDC or otherwise. It is not necessarily just about primary care.

With regard to PIN numbers for every patient, while much has been made of using the PPSN for identification of patients, that is not legally possible at present. Heartwatch uses what we call patient Heartwatch numbers. The link between the patient identity - name, address etc. - and the patient Heartwatch number remains in the GP practice and is not transmitted to anybody outside the practice. Any data received from GPs at the centre, and which is in the database, is linked only to a Heartwatch number. Therefore, the data is completely anonymous which protects the privacy of data.

There are no plans for that Heartwatch number to be transferable to other health care institutions for accident and emergency out-patients, other referral specialists etc. Other than a transfer from one GP to the next, there are no plans to date in the context of the Heartwatch programme for transfer of patients' Heartwatch numbers as a continuous health care record. There are many reasons for that. At present, there is no legal precedent for it and it is very much open to debate. Having a PIN number, secret code or unique national identifier for patients for ease of transfer from one health care institution to another has not been planned. The reason for having Heartwatch numbers is to protect the identity of patients.

With regard to infrastructure, I dealt only briefly with the next phases. I firmly believe that eventually, for health care reasons, an anonymous, secure centralisation of health care records will be required. The INDC is undertaking this and it is having a positive effect. It means speedy support, consistent standards and auditable and comprehensive support for GPs administering health care. As long as the GP remains the data controller - the only person who can link patient identity to the health care record - the centralisation of the database is to be welcomed.

I will jump ahead to address the issue of the security of the database. Because patient data is anonymous, there is a large degree of security. With any web-based application which has a centralised database using secure log-ins among users, and using some kind of public key or lower-grade private key infrastructure, there would be protection for the GP user. Only he or she could link a health care record to be able to read it and link it to the patient identifier. There are many measures which could be taken for which there is legal provision and for which there is commercial and Government precedent. While security must always be tested, it is probably not a big issue and certainly not a reason not to discuss the roll-out of broadband and web-based applications in such controversial areas as health care or finance and banking. The technologies exist to deal with the problems.

On the question of population cover, in the initial implementation phase it is envisaged that up to 14,000 cardiovascular patients would be recruited to the Heartwatch programme. However, I do not know the national population of cardiovascular patients.

While the INDC is a data collection facility, it could become an advice centre in conjunction with a frequently asked questions service, the Heartwatch or national programme centre help desk and the network of support and direction from the health boards around the country, their representatives and the GP co-ordinators involved in the Heartwatch programme. It is designed to be an advice centre as opposed to simply being a data collection facility. Whether it might extend to informing GPs on issues such as SARS and other hot topics, I do not know. We are confining ourselves at present to the cardiovascular area.

Should this kind of service be rolled out for GP patients in primary care or wider on this or similar infrastructure, GPs in the regions would also need access to broadband. As far as I am aware, without being a telecoms expert, broadband is available over a number of media. For example, the INDC uses broadband over wireless connections but it is also available over cable, DSL and otherwise. A question of national design has been raised in that regard.

Thank you. The committee appreciates that Mr. Cahill has appeared before it and found his talk very interesting. It will help us in our final preparations for our report. Rather than suspending the meeting at this point, I would like to invite Mr. John McAleer to make his presentation. I thank Mr. Cahill. We will try to catch up a little as we are behind time. I thank Mr. McAleer, who is the director of the South West Regional Authority, for coming all the way from Cork today. He is more than welcome.

Mr. John McAleer

I thank the Chairman, members and officials of the joint committee for the invitation to attend this meeting today and to speak about the potential of satellite technologies to deliver broadband services to areas throughout the State. I am the director of the South West Regional Authority and I have a background of approximately seven years in this area. The south-west was designated in 1995 by the European Commission as a pilot region for the development of the information society. An information society strategic plan for the region was completed in 1998 and I have since completed a master's degree in government and public policy, with a specialisation in ICT for regional development.

New information and communications technologies were often hailed as the potential saviours of rural and peripheral areas as they emerged in the past decade. A common claim for such technologies was that they heralded the death of distance and made work independent of location. It was said that the information superhighway provided a new, exciting and cost-effective means of doing business and of getting goods to the marketplace, irrespective of the location of the producer or the consumer. All of these claims are genuine as far as the technology goes. The information society has led to spectacular economic growth and e-commerce has assisted greatly in what we now understand to be a global marketplace, which is accessible from anywhere.

It is important to note that Ireland is increasingly a knowledge-based economy - its raw material is the ability of its people rather than anything that is taken from the ground, for example. Broadband connectivity, therefore, is important to our economic well-being as a nation. The down-side of the power of the information society is that market forces mean that broadband, which is the infrastructure of the information society, will only be provided where the largest customer bases exist, in the larger cities and towns. Telecom providers will not make large investments in peripheral or marginalised communities. Rather than promoting dispersal and equality of access for rural and peripheral areas, broadband quickly becomes a very strong agent of economic concentration. We can already see this happening in Ireland, for example at the Park West business park in Dublin. The business park, which is at the end of the global crossings international connection, is now cited as the only location which can accommodate certain companies requiring very large bandwidths. Similarly, indigenous and foreign owned companies in rural Ireland will strongly favour locations with adequate bandwidth, thereby promoting more urban activity and mitigating strongly against investment in smaller towns.

The south-west region, which consists of counties Cork and Kerry, is more than 12,100 sq. km. in area and has a population of about 600,000 people. Many of the people of this large region live in its rural districts. A key objective of the South West Regional Authority is to promote and help people to secure sustainable livelihoods in their own areas. I am sure all members are aware that when people in rural areas and rural towns send their children to college to be educated, there is no possibility that they will ever return to that area to work. They cannot put their qualifications to work in such areas. A continuous brain-drain from rural areas is being promoted, with the result that the people of such areas are dependent on agriculture or services. Nothing is being to done to promote substantially the development of rural areas as vibrant societies where people can make a living.

The South West Regional Authority is working to develop technology centres in towns such as Bantry, Caherciveen, Newmarket, Dingle and Listowel, thereby providing employment opportunities for graduates and protecting the future economic viability of towns and villages. In this regard, the authority is attempting to work closely with Enterprise Ireland's "into the regions" initiative, which is promoting the development of industry and indigenous industry in regional locations throughout the country. This has an important relevance to the national spatial strategy. The authority also wishes to ensure that the people of such areas have equal levels of access to e-government services and distance education and are in a position to participate in teleworking to the same degree as those who live in large towns or cities. Such plans are challenged by the lack of bandwidth availability. When one examines the provision of e-government services, one finds that we are actively disenfranchising people who do not have access to such services. There is a two-speed access to the services.

It is evident to the authority that the cost of providing broadband at a level of universal service is not economically attainable if the approach is based solely on the roll-out of fibre optic cable. The authority's experience shows that the cost of ducting alone - placing a four-inch plastic pipe in the ground - is in excess of €140 per linear metre. Fibre also has to be fed through the ducts and ultimately lit to provide a service. Most small towns in rural Ireland do not present a sufficient business case for a telecom operator to provide broadband. Are such areas to be further marginalised? This is a significant challenge in promoting balanced regional development in the south-west, due to the typical size of our towns and villages. The members of the committee familiar with the region will know that it has very few large towns. It consists predominantly of smaller towns and villages. If one excludes Mallow, Killarney and Tralee, one is left with places such as Schull, Ballydehob and Caherciveen that have a population of between 300 and 3,000 people. While larger settlements with populations in excess of 2,000 and with suitable exchange equipment will get DSL services in time, many other towns will not, leading to a broadband deficit. What applies in the south-west applies equally throughout the State.

I would like to make the case for satellite broadband. The South West Regional Authority has been co-funded by the European Space Agency to trial, evaluate and disseminate, on a Europe-wide basis, the use of satellite technologies to deliver bandwidth to communities in the south-west region. This has been done with a view to overcoming difficulties in distributing broadband throughout the region. While we are less than six months into the 18 month programme, it is evident that satellite can deliver broadband at affordable costs. I have circulated copies of a brochure that relates to the pilot programme and I will not go into the detail of it now. If people are interested in it, further details are available from our website. The pilot programme enjoys the participation of the major space segment players, such as satellite operators and those who provide dishes and telecom services by satellite, who have worked with us in it. The brochure is slightly out of date in that regard, but those who read it will see an invitation to a wireless event in Caherciveen next Friday morning. A full list of participants is given on the back of the brochure. Some very big players from Europe and the US have joined us in this project.

The economic viability of the satellite option is greatly enhanced by the linking of 802.11 b and 802.11g wireless local area networks, or LANs, to the satellite systems. The 14 locations in the region that are being covered under the pilot programme, such as towns, technology parks, dental surgeries and schools, are equipped with satellite dishes which provide uploads and downloads of data. Where wireless LANs have been developed, the local server is supported by a pro-active cache which updates itself constantly with the most popularly used Internet sites and informs other caches around the region.

Bandwidths through the satellite system can be of whatever size is economically justified. The question of what bandwidth can be justified must always be asked. People refer to broadband without quantifying the usage level or need anticipated. In the case of satellite, broadband can be scaled and switched up or down. There is a cost factor in that. Typically, we work at a level of 512 kbs up and 1 mb down and by using the wireless and cache systems users see a connectivity of approximately 7 mbs per second on 311 B system. It is much higher on the G system. In the case of industrial users, the satellite system can also support virtual private networks, VPNs, over the satellite connection.

While we are still in the early stages of this pilot study with the first wireless LAN system coming on line in Caherciveen on Friday of this week, we are very confident and anticipate that the cost per private user will be of the order of €25 per month for always-on connectivity. We selected Caherciveen as it is almost as west as one can get in Europe. Our claim is that Caherciveen is the most westerly town in Europe with broadband. If we can do it in Caherciveen, we can do it anywhere, which is not to imply any disrespect to the town. I wish it to be clear to the committee that satellite technology is not a fully competing alternative to fibre optic, or even to DSL, but it is an excellent option to consider to deliver services which will permit small business to operate out of peripheral locations. Satellite technology can also facilitate the roll-out of e-government and other services to local communities. It has the significant advantage of being readily available and cost effective, particularly when provided on a community-wide basis via wireless local area networks. It is not necessary to dig up roads to provide this system. A satellite system can be put in place in about one and a half hours.

We welcome the interest of the joint committee in our work and we recommend that to deliver bandwidth to all rural areas the State contracts to purchase a sizeable bandwidth sector on the transponders of one or more of the satellite operators covering Ireland. There are satellites overhead and they have telecommunications transponders on them the bandwidth of which is sold to users. We suggest the State works with us to observe what we do to inform its consideration of the bulk purchase of space on a transponder over Ireland. Such an approach would have two distinct advantages. Bandwidth costs would be significantly lowered and, as the systems are fully scaleable, priority bandwidth could be ascribed to particular users when required. If, for example, a Department were to establish itself in the west requiring a great deal of bandwidth to send its monthly report, the system could be tuned to provide greater bandwidth for a time on a certain day and retuned to provide for normal day-to-day needs. A fully scaleable service is one in which bandwidth can be ascribed to users as they need it.

The adoption of the approach we recommend should involve identifying target sites for servicing selected on the basis of strategic importance. I have in mind towns which have perhaps lost manufacturing operations. We recommend that serviced industrial sites or technology centres be made available. In these areas, surplus bandwidth can be provided to local communities via wireless networks. Such an approach will provide an immediate solution to bandwidth delivery at capital costs of approximately €7,000 per location for the satellite equipment. Wireless technologies are inexpensive to purchase and install. Our recommended approach has the advantages in a quickly changing technology environment in which wireless is growing as a preferred technology, that investments which are not viable would not be made in buried services which have potential for early obsolescence.

The South West Regional Authority would welcome the opportunity to arrange a bilateral meeting with the committee's consultants in which representatives of the satellite industry would be asked to participate with a view to making a more detailed presentation on a strategic national approach to satellite broadband development. In the meantime, I am happy to try to answer any questions which members of the committee wish to raise.

I draw Mr. McAleer's attention to the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege. This privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. It is generally accepted that witnesses have qualified privilege, but the committee cannot guarantee any level of privilege to witnesses appearing before it. I hand over to Deputy Coveney who I am sure is very familiar with the South West Regional Authority.

I welcome Mr. JohnMcAleer to the committee and I welcome what he had to say. Satellite technology offers exciting solutions, particularly in the regions where, clearly, we are unlikely to see the physical roll-out of cable to provide broadband infrastructure. If we cannot find alternative solutions, certain regions will be put at a significant disadvantage from an investment point of view.

Is Mr. McAleer convinced that satellite technology can compete head-to-head with wireless LAN or the local area networks being provided by cabling? Can an always-on service compete with set charges per month of between €25 and €30 per month? My understanding is that a number of private companies around Ireland are proposing satellite solutions independently of the work of the South West Regional Authority. The charge proposed by these companies is of the order of €65 per month. That raises the question of the ability to compete of the €35 per month service which I hope the wireless and cable operators will begin to provide over the next 12 months.

I understand that when one has a satellite dish on a house, broadband capacity exists in terms of information received, but not in the case of information to be transmitted. One could download a long and detailed file very quickly if one were a lawyer, accountant or home user, but the same capacity would not exist to send the same volume of information back. Is that the case and, if so, what are its implications? If one has cable or wireless LAN provision to one's house, there is the capacity to send and receive large amounts of information quickly in keeping with the purpose of a broadband link.

The most interesting suggestion made here relates to using satellite technology to beam capacity to an area in west Cork or west Kerry through a central location from which a wireless LAN system distributes it. The suggestion is very exciting for certain areas. Does Mr. McAleer see the Government taking on the cost of beaming in the capacity? He seems to suggest that the State consider contracting large bandwidth to beam to regional private service providers which would link houses and business through wireless LANs. Is this envisaged as a means of allowing competition in the service sector, which is what drives down prices and offers users alternatives?

Will Mr. McAleer elaborate on the estimated cost of €7,000 per town? To what size of town does this figure refer and what does it entail? The South West Regional Authority has received funding for this work from the European Space Agency. This is valuable information for our report. Why has it not received funding from the Government? Has it requested funding and, if so, has it been refused? What has been the Government's view to date on the possibilities offered by satellite? Why has the Exchequer not provided at least a proportion of the funding, all of which has emanated from Europe?

I wondered previously about the cost of laying fibre optic cable. Driving home from the Houses in recent weeks, I had to travel through south Kilkenny, where the roads have been dug up in three or four places to lay broadband. On a previous occasion the Minister informed the committee that the cost of laying fibre optic cable in the region from which I come would be in the region of €45 per house. Mr. McAleer stated the equivalent cost using satellite technology would be just €25. He also stated it was not a fully competing alternative to fibre optic. If we were to assume fibre optic to be 100% efficient, what percentage would satellite provide? Will the fibre optic we are currently laying at enormous cost become outdated at some point? Satellite technology will be constantly updated and its cost may fall in the future. Will Mr. McAleer comment on this possibility? Will one have to buy a separate satellite dish to use this technology or will one be able to use satellite dishes currently in use to receive television channels?

As a member of the Eastern Regional Authority, I warmly welcome the presentation. It is interesting to examine these issues from the perspective of another end of the country, the south-west, which is one I know well. Why should the people of that region, for instance, those living on the Beara Peninsula, not be entitled to universal service at optimum levels? Why should broadband not be treated in the same manner as water and electricity supply? Why should citizens, particularly those living on peninsulas or in west Cork and County Kerry, not be entitled to exactly the same service as Park West or the digital hub in my region?

Mr. McAleer

Deputy Coveney's first question concerned competing with wireless or cable on an always-on basis. The question is not about competing with wireless, but one of backbone as wireless must have a backbone. Like the water supply, wireless requires a trunk main to distribute it to houses. Without such a main, one cannot distribute water or, in this case, broadband. Wireless usually runs from a fibre backbone, which means it is distributed from a fibre point. This is referred to as the "last mile". Therefore, the question is not one of competition, but of establishing a modus operandi for getting the broadband into a point from which one can distribute for the “last mile”. The system does not compete with cable for obvious reasons. The amount of bandwidth one can provide on a fibre optic cable is practically infinite. In terms of commercial operators——

We are trying to establish its value from the point of view of cost. If the main trunk were satellite rather than cable, would it be competitive on a cost basis for end users when buying it from a wireless land network which is coming from a satellite trunk? Would that add extra costs or a premium to the price to the end user?

Mr. McAleer

To answer the question of whether a fibre connection is warranted, one must build into the equation the capital cost of the fibre and factor in the number of end users. A range of issues are involved in this process, many of which will be examined in our project. Some of these relate to the contention rate in relation to a satellite operation, in other words, the number of clients feeding off one transponder in space. Clearly the larger the number, the lower the standard of service each client receives. We will consider the issue as a public service provision. In a self-funding environment, we believe €25 per month per user would cover its cost and in those circumstances, one would want a user population in, for example, a town, of approximately 70.

The Deputy's second question referred to the ability of the service to download data and inability to upload it. This is a matter of horses for courses. Certain systems can download data, but are not good at uploading it, whereas others are equally good at doing both. This is both a cost and system factor. It is, however, possible. Our approach and the equipment we are using will deliver a fully scaleable service which can download up to 20 megabits, provided one is prepared to pay for it, and upload as many as ten megabits. One always has a lesser upload, even where just 512k, which is the equivalent of a DSL line, is being uploaded. DSL uploads and downloads data in normal circumstances. In our case, it will be possible to send and receive data and we will run full video conferencing and other facilities over the system.

The figure of €7,000 per location relates to the cost of a dish and ancillary equipment, which includes a satellite modem and a caching system, which is a service dedicated to the satellite. However, units are available for as little as €300 and certain operators provide systems free of charge and recoup the capital costs by charging subscribers on a monthly basis. Again, cost is a function of the type of use. We are addressing the strategic regional use end of the market rather than home use.

The Deputy also asked about the funding we received from the European Space Agency and the position of the Government. The European Space Agency provides 50% of the funding for the project with the balance provided by other agencies in the space industry. The project has also received support from Enterprise Ireland. There is an Irish Government envelope within the European Space Agency's budget. We had to obtain clearance from the Government to obtain the money from this envelope which is administered by the European Space Agency. Therefore, we have been indirectly funded by the Government. I acknowledge the continuing excellent encouragement and support Enterprise Ireland has offered the project.

The Senator asked a question in regard to Waterford city and €45 a house. The city case is completely different to the rural case. In Cork city, for example, a fibre optic ring is being put in because for a relatively small area of territory one has a relatively large number of users which then makes an economic and business case for telecom operators to put in the service knowing that they have a big clientele. It costs as much to put in this service on county roads as it does within the city streets, perhaps more, because one will not have the ducting. In the case of the county road one might have 20 potential users after putting in 40 miles of cable whereas in the city for 40 miles of cable one might have up to 1,000 potential users. That is the difference and that is why it is difficult to make a business case for the rural areas.

On its capacity to compete, as I said in my paper, wireless just cannot compete with fibre. It realistically cannot compete with DSL. I have DSL in my office and for a cost in the region of €47 a month I have a service that is on all the time that has a bandwidth of more than 500 KB. The 500 KB are dedicated to me. Wireless cannot compete with that but the reality is that many rural areas will not see DSL or fibre. What is one to do with those areas? It is a good system to pick up those areas which otherwise would be left out of the loop completely.

As to the dishes on the house; again, it depends on whether one is getting the €300 dish or the type of system in which we are dealing. The normal dish one would see on a house is an 80 cm one. Our dish would normally be a 1 m dish but the hardware on it is much more substantial than what one would see on a house, for example.

Should the people of the Beara Peninsula be entitled to broadband? Absolutely, they should be. As we go into the information age people will have more and more of a dependency on connectivity. However, we have to be realistic; one could maybe say that the people of the Beara Peninsula should have a DART service as well. It is the same argument.

When we established an electricity network we did not say we would have to use some other local form of generation in certain areas. A decision was taken at the time to do the entire country, which took the State some 40 or 50 years. Why should the citizen of the south-west be disadvantaged in this regard? Is there not a fundamental issue here of basic rights? I applaud Mr. McAleer for this tremendous initiative he has taken which the regional authority has implemented. It is great to see it.

The point has been made that wireless cannot compete with cable, DSL and so on, but is everybody not entitled to it? Should it not be a national task? No areas should be left out. We should not try to cobble things together now. We did not do it in the past in regard to other services.

We will take a 15 minute break.

I have just one question in regard to the management contract for the fibre optic rings. The Government is currently undertaking a competition and putting out to tender a management contract for the fibre rings that are around the country. There will be an independent operator managing the infrastructure and it will be providing the use of those rings at wholesale cost for other service providers to interact with clients. Would Mr. McAleer recommend that we do something similar in regard to satellite technology? Would it be appropriate for the independent operator managing the rings to be also given this responsibility or through a similar competition should an independent operator be paid by the Government to provide broadband capacity via satellite into areas that clearly will not be reached with cable and to be paid by the Government? The Minister would ensure that it happened over a set timeframe. This would be much more manageable than having the situation that currently exists which leaves it to the marketplace and to organisations like the South West Regional Authority to act on its own initiative, albeit with the support of Enterprise Ireland.

Research projects are taking place in different parts of the country. Private operators are planning to offer services directly to customers via satellite. Does Mr. McAleer envisage a single operator system as the way forward? Currently it is all happening in an unco-ordinated way, whereas a single operator could be given the contract for providing capacity to every region, regardless of location and finding solutions for those regions. Satellite would clearly play a part in that.

The committee is of the view that one size does not fit all. We are also conscious of the fact that the Government is looking at wireless systems and the whole area of satellite. The Minister and his officials will appear before the committee to outline the Government strategy.

Is the dish being provided free of charge? I wish to home in again on the €25 per month always-on satellite system. Mr. McAleer referred to a capacity of 510 KB up to 1 MB. As everybody is aware, the standard one here is currently 56 KB. When we were in Grant County in Washington State in the cold last January we saw fibre to fibre at 1 GB. The question about €25 is important because it is fascinating to see the telecoms providers reducing their charges over the past six months due to the prompting of the Minister and the regulator. This will add even more weight to the importance of providing connectivity at affordable prices.

Mr. McAleer

If I could revert to Deputy Broughan's question in regard to the Beara Peninsula, or the Kerry example; ideally, they should have the same connectivity but the reality is different. The example of the ESB networks was used. However, in some parts of the country there are 220 kV lines while in other parts one has 110 kV lines. In places there is three phase electricity while there is two phase electricity in other places. This is due to the level of anticipated usage. As things stand, it is unlikely that the people of the Beara Peninsula would need a 2 GB fibre, for example, or a 90 GB fibre. The reality is that because of cost factors we will not see it.

It was mentioned that it might take 40 years to do it. I would envisage that in 40 years this technology will have changed so substantially that none of us can imagine how it will operate. Meanwhile, there is an immediate need. There is a strong perception in towns that, for example, have development committees and aspire to getting small industries to set up there that they are no longer at the races in terms of attracting development if they cannot deliver some degree of bandwidth. Very often, quite a small element of it is sufficient to satisfy the needs of small companies. I am not talking about saving the world type of technology, I am talking about technology that will be adequate and that will see us through until something else turns up.

Deputy Coveney referred to the fibre optic rings and the management contract. The fibre optic rings are predominantly in urban areas. The idea is that the State will provide an incentive for the market to operate and that is what is happening. We are suggesting something very similar, namely, that while independent operators will provide satellite services to a certain market, which is likely to be a home market, the State will need to take a view on what is required at a strategic level. In my presentation I suggested that if the State bought into this idea, it would identify strategic locations, purchase the bandwidth for them and guarantee a quality of service to ensure that they always have sufficient bandwidth for their requirements. There are two separate levels - strategic and operational - and I am referring to the strategic one.

The other benefit associated with the satellite option is that one normally contracts the bandwidth for 12 months. It is scaleable. For example, the State could contract 40 megabits of data, which, if purchased megabit by megabit, would cost about €100,000 per annum. Obviously, if the State bought them, they would be substantially cheaper. It would manage and roll them out on a public private partnership basis. It would provide the public infrastructure from which operators could compete to provide services. This guarantees the quality of service.

The Chairman made the point that there is not one size to fit all, which is very true where this technology is concerned. There is much hype about the level of bandwidth people claim to need. I was speaking to a person I know in one of the Swedish regions last week who told me he had ten megabits coming into his home. I asked him why he needed this and he said it was because his children could download three or four movies every evening. However, we are not interested in people downloading movies but in facilitating people who are setting up businesses.

The dish is not free of charge in the cases of which I am talking but there are plenty of people providing dishes for nominal charges. To explain the charge of €25 per month, one can buy one's bandwidth, which can be anything from 64 kilobits up and 112 kilobits down to ten megabits up and 20 megabits down. I am talking about a megabit up and a megabit down. Sixty-four kilobits up and 64 kilobits down amount to €200 per month while a megabit up and a megabit down amounts to €2,500 per month.

If one were to opt for a level of connectivity between these parameters, such as 256 kilobits up and 512 kilobits down, or 256 kilobits up and one megabit down, the cost would amount to approximately €1,875 per month. One has to examine the contention ratio for that signal. All telecoms are contended. For example, if a telecom operator is offering a line of a certain bandwidth, this is normally contended, meaning that there may be 50 more customers using it, just like one's telephone system. If everybody in Ireland was to pick up a telephone and make a call at the same time, the telephone system would be strained. One has to factor in a varying number of users.

The process to which I am referring involves buying approximately one megabit and feeding it through a server and an intelligent cache. The cache builds up a pattern of use, on the Internet for example, and ascertains how many people log on to look at news sites in the morning, certain airline sites to look for tickets or at match results on the GAA's site. This information is sent to and from the satellite all the time, and thus the information is refreshed. This happens in any case in respect of many standard terrestrial systems because the refreshment process is being carried out through the service operator. It does not have to go all the way around the Internet.

If one had 75 users on the basis of that megabit being delivered through the cache, which gives them the impression of seven to 11 megabits of speed, those users, paying €25 per head, would pay for that system and its maintenance. The system is costing €7,000 in capital and €1,800 per month. One could decide to charge €50 and allow only 20 people use the system or, for example, charge them €100 and double the monthly bandwidth being pulled down. Our systems seem to suggest that once the server is refreshing itself, it will handle e-mail, VPN and all the other operations. The detail associated with the costs outlined needs to be discussed at a technical level with the consultants.

Did Mr. McAleer outline the wholesale of the service?

Mr. McAleer

The household will pay €25 to have the service on all the time and to have connectivity of up to 11 megabits. All the users accumulate to buy the chunk of bandwidth for that satellite.

I thank Mr. McAleer for his informative presentation. If we need additional information he will be able to assist us. He has made a number of recommendations that the committee will consider in its report.

I welcome Ms Nana Luke, director of E-Training International and chairperson of Telework Ireland. While members of the committee have absolute privilege, this does not extend to witnesses appearing before it. While it is generally accepted that witnesses have qualified privilege, the committee cannot guarantee any level of privilege to witnesses appearing before it.

Ms Nana Luke

I am honoured to have the opportunity to address the sub-committee and give my views on the issue of broadband in Ireland. I compliment the sub-committee on holding these hearings. Broadband is an essential component of the information and knowledge society. Its successful roll-out will greatly determine Ireland's standing in the global knowledge economy.

In my presentation I will introduce my company, E-Training International, its directors, work and methodologies. I will also outline the benefits of our teleworking approach in general and particularly for rural areas. Giving our users' perspective, I will outline our need for broadband and the project proposal we have developed for a community broadband project in Scariff. I will then discuss the general need for broadband, make some international comparisons and urge the committee to take action, especially in rural Ireland.

The question is no longer why do we need broadband., the question is: how quickly can we roll-out broadband? We could also look at the fast-tracking of wireless area networks for rural areas. We need to establish how we can bring this capacity to rural areas and how this can be done quickly. While we have heard of satellite and wireless area networks, there must be a source of broadband and a way of distributing it. Of these two components, the source can change - it can first be satellite and later it can be fibre-optics - the methodology of delivering broadband can be wide area networking. This technology is improving rapidly and is already being employed in Ireland and elsewhere.

Broadband is essential infrastructure that is probably even more important than roads. It is neither a regional nor market issue. Even within a relatively small country such as this, I am concerned that there is competition between the regions for funding to roll-out necessary infrastructure. I am concerned that an imbalance in infrastructure between regions could easily happen. Ireland is small enough for the State to take the lead role and look at this at national level. This has to be looked at from national level.

E-Training International is a business name of Bealtaine Limited. Bealtaine Limited has been in existence since 1994 and incorporates East Clare Telecottage, established in 1991 as the first teleworking enterprise in Ireland, and Taylor Lightfoot Transport Consultants, established in 1990.

E-Training International was established to better promote and manage the internationally traded services of the company. Two directors of Bealtaine, namely, Martina Minogue and I, manage it. Ms Minogue is involved in regional development and is a member of the board of the Western Development Commission. She has been with the company since 1996 and is involved in the management of distributive teams. As well as being a director of E-Training International, I have been chairperson of Telework Ireland, the national association for teleworking, since 1999. As part of this, I was invited to be part of the e-work action forum established by the then Minister of State, Deputy Treacy, in 2000 following on from the national advisory council on teleworking. This forum did good work in developing e-working and facilitating an e-work friendly environment in Ireland. Chaired by William Burgess of IBM, it successfully concluded its work at the end of 2002.

Bealtaine is based in a small office in Scariff, County Clare. Scariff is a small market town of 900 people including a hinterland of 1,500 people. It is approximately equidistant between Limerick and Ennis and is about 25 miles from each. The communications infrastructure consists of ISDN and normal telephone lines. The chance of getting broadband in such a town through market forces is very small. BT has rolled out DSL in Britain and the trigger level for an exchange is normally about 350 connections. In a town the size of Scariff there are fewer connections that this. There are other places where the market is more attractive and broadband will be rolled out there first.

E-Training International provides all the Irish translations for the major e-government projects of OASIS, BASIS and REACH. We do this with a team of translators on the Aran Islands. While I have been working with this team since the end of 2000, the only contact we have had is by e-mail. I first met the project leader in February 2003. Neither have I met the clients face to face. However, this does not matter as everything is done by e-mail and telephone. Other clients include Roche, IBM and a Trumpf, a German company which produces laser tools, employs 5,000 people worldwide and has an annual turnover of €1 billion. We provide highly technical translations for it from Scariff.

Recent research clients include the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and the NDP gender equality unit. We did a nationwide survey of gender disaggregated statistics on attitudes in business. We have carried out a survey evaluating IT resources in County Clare and I have made copies available to members. It is a complete survey of every single community group and school in County Clare and looks in detail at the IT resource in terms of what is available at present, what are the success factors, how is the IT being used, how often can it be accessed, for what is it being used, where are the problems and what are the needs and interests of people in terms of the improvements they would like.

A glaring finding from the research is that broadband is a real need. I will return to this later. The submission is well documented and contains a summary. I also enclose on CD a detailed report of more than 100 pages where members will be able to access information on such matters as the age of PCs by size of school, the number of PCs schools want and the number they can realistically expect to get this year.

We provide IT softskills training locally, mainly within County Clare. We have run courses for FÁS in Shannon and for the Clare local employment services. On the question of e-working, training and e-learning content development, we have worked for the FÁS curriculum development unit for a long-term project concerned with the development of the aircraft mechanic curriculum and training materials. We have also worked with intuition publishing and, on a long-term basis, for a company called Primelearning.com, located in Limerick. That provided an excellent example of e-working. We sourced and contracted eight e-workers. These people were interested and highly skilled, working from home. We managed them remotely and once every two weeks they visited our premises and we met them, as did the client, who was based in Limerick. Apart from that, all communication was over the Internet. The work was delivered over the Internet. If there was any trouble we would send somebody out to help with technical support. The people were based mainly in or around east County Clare, within a radius of up to 40 kilometres. There is no reason they could not have been located further away, but we try to provide employment as close as possible in the area.

We were e-working to a client and our suppliers were e-working to us. It worked well. The only constraint was the lack of broadband. Again, the network was always connected. Primelearning.com in Limerick had development teams writing cross-materials which were on the network. The company employed 60 to 70 people to do it. Our people had to dial in and upload things slowly and laboriously often the connection would not work and hours were wasted every day. At the same time it was still successful, butit could have been much easier. We will persevere.

We also engage in design and print. This report went from research, through publication to us. We provide e-work consultancy and have been involved in European projects since the fourth framework, Leonardo da Vinci. ADAP, and, I hope, e-content.

Interestingly, in terms of European projects, file sizes are getting bigger. Our project partners are in universities and big companies. They are using broadband that is always on and they do not even know the size of the attachment they send. When the ISDN at our end is on for two hours and we are downloading a 10 megabyte file we are already reaching the limits of what the technology can do. It is impacting severely on the time it takes us to undertake normal business processes. It will become more so because file sizes are not getting smaller and everybody else is getting broadband except us.

We operate through the Internet and e-mail. We also have a database of skilled e-workers. In 2000, when there were huge skills shortages everywhere and people were paying large amounts of money to recruit and retain staff where they could, we placed a small advertisement in each of the county papers - The Clare Champion, Limerick Leader and The Connacht Tribune - of approximately one inch by two and a half inches in size. We asked for people with high level IT skills who were interested in working from home. We did not promise a job, but from one advertisement in each paper at the height of the boom, we had 150 responses, at a time when everybody was complaining that they could not get staff. Most of the respondents were high level people - programmers, technical writers and many who were very interested in working from home.

We in Telework Ireland find that 60% to 70% of our inquiries come from people who want to work from home. They have the skills and a certain amount of Internet connectivity and IT equipment at home. There is a huge potential here. We will not stay at the present slightly depressed levels in IT. It will pick up again. It has to and fairly soon because it is so much part of the economy and the way we do business.

At that point we will return to the question of accessing and storing information and the maximisation of resources. We are very flexible in this regard because we keep a very small core staff of people employed but we have a huge base of very good contract workers we can put into projects on a part-time or fixed term basis and put together management project teams. We have solid and year-long experience in doing this.

There are different types of benefits associated with the e-work model. The personal benefits include being able to work where one lives. It means one can choose where to live and work from there. It is not a question of having to move and commute to be where the work is. One can work and live locally. One Telework Ireland member lives in Kiltimagh and very successfully, for more than a decade, writes and provides financial training projects and courses from Kiltimagh to places as far away as Russia and the Middle East. Editors of the International Red Cross publications in Geneva made a lifestyle choice. They said they would like to move to Ireland and live in a rural community. They came to Ireland and are still editors for the International Red Cross in Geneva because they are teleworkers. They are highly skilled people and had good contacts before they came here. They can do the same work they do from Ireland in a different country and do it ten times better if they have broadband.

The principle of e-working is founded on a knowledge based business. We are not looking at something requiring huge infrastructure in terms of roads, heavy machinery, new factory buildings or business parks. We are concerned with something that can be undertaken in an office and needs relatively little equipment. In many ways it is more ideal for more rural areas. It also works on a smaller scale than a big factory or call centre. It is an interesting model in terms of how a rural area can provide a high level of highly skilled employment. People do not have to travel to the big centres.

In terms of benefits to the community, we are looking at giving people local access to ICT equipment, training and services. People come to us and can do the ECDL, the advanced ECDL and one to one courses. They can surf the Internet, fax, e-mail, use office services, type, design and print. It is all there locally. Otherwise they would have to travel 25 or 30 miles, and might not even get the same level of service. Of course there is also a library in Scariff, but the opening times are not as long as ours and the range of equipment is not the same either. In a library, one can surf the Internet, but on our computers one can download emails, work on files, type or whatever.

There is definite potential for employment generation and also for easier participation in the labour force. Returning to the prime learning example, one of the women who worked in the instructional design team for prime learning and who wrote high-level training courses on personal development, was a single parent with four children and no driving licence. She could not have gone to work full-time in Limerick every day and come home. She was not prepared to do that. She could do a full day's work and fit that time around her children being at school or sometimes with the childminder. She was flexible in when she did the work up to a certain point. A certain amount of work had to be delivered in each week and she managed to meet those targets without suffering any major stress. She was able, due to e-working, to combine her family commitments to access this work which would not have been accessible to her otherwise. The opposite also applies. At a time of skills shortages, this was another person who was available to the workforce who would not have been available otherwise. If one looks at this in European terms, the e-Europe Action Plan emphasises the need for e-work centres in local communities to specifically meet this goal of making it easier for people to participate in the labour force. The benefit is a reduction in commuting. Many people leave Scariff every morning to drive to Limerick, Galway or Ennis.

Ms Luke, your presentation is superb. Indeed the report you prepared is superb and it will help the committee a great deal. Due to the time constraints, would you mind taking a few questions at this stage?

I thank Ms Luke for her presentation. I welcome the concept of teleworking. I worked in the telecommunications business myself some years ago and there were a number of people teleworking. At that time, they were mainly categories of people who were suffering with disabilities.

As Ms Luke outlined, teleworking has many benefits. For example, it helps to relieve traffic congestion. In today's world there are many people under stress and strain. There are two people working, whether partners or a married couple, and when they get home in the evening they are stressed out. This can lead to a breakdown in marriages, etc. Teleworking helps to eliminate such difficulties.

Ms Luke stated that we should roll this out quickly. However, operators will tell you that it is expensive to provide broadband services for residential and rural areas. For that reason, they need to put in place much more infrastructure and it makes it very costly for them to roll out the networks and provide a universal service. Indeed, the regulator recently put a cap on the charges of Eircom, the service provider. In my view, it will be very difficult to provide those services for rural areas and, in some cases, residential areas. That was always the case, by the way, even in the old days in the telecommunications business.

Rolling they system out to make it more accessible to anybody who wants it will take massive investment. As we all know, there are fewer operators and any business can get a reasonable return on its investment. They will not take the risk or at least they will be very reluctant to commit massive capital expenditure to it. I would like to hear Ms Luke's views on that.

Approximately how many people are involved in teleworking in Ireland? Video conferencing is another issue. Eircom and the telephone operators state that they did a great deal of work marketing teleconferencing in this country. It never really took off. There were many reasons for this, but there was one good reason, in which I myself was involved at one time. Most of the people involved in companies will tell you that they like to go to America to meet their counterparts, to shake hands with them and have a cup of coffee or a drink with them. Is teleconferencing a step too far? Is there sufficient demand for teleconferencing among people who are teleworking?

I thank Ms Luke for this fine presentation. This is a terrible indictment of the Minister, Deputy Dermot Ahern, and of the Government. Page after page of Ms Luke's report seems to me to put this Government in the dock. Even these hearings probably should have taken place three or four years ago.

Some of the statistics Ms Luke has provided for us are astonishing. For instance, it is easier to get broadband in Botswana and Romania than in parts of Ireland. According to her report, 94% of businesses in Denmark have DSL while Irish DSL penetration is 1%. By 2008, 28% of all EU households will have broadband. By then, 42% in Belgium will have it and, with this Minister, we will be lucky if 14% in Ireland have it. According to the broadband Internet penetration table Ms Luke has given us, Ireland is bottom of the table with 1.3% penetration.

This is an outstanding presentation. It is a synopsis of the gut feeling of the committee on this, that again the Minister, Deputy Dermot Ahern, and the Government have failed this country dramatically in this area. It sounds to me almost like an angry presentation, as if Ms Luke is in a hurry and is asking why has this not been done. The Scariff proposal is outstanding and we should move on it. If there are job opportunities for rural areas like Scariff, the presentation begs the following questions. What have we been doing? What on earth has been going on regarding the provision of broadband?

I note that a core point Ms Luke makes at the end of the briefing note is that this is the Government's responsibility and that market forces are not sufficient to achieve it. Am I correct in my perception of the report, based on the work Ms Luke has done and is trying to do through the Internet, that we had better get into the race and provide major investment, and let the Government take responsibility? From Ms Luke's experience in Scariff in east Clare, is she telling this committee to act urgently?

I remind Ms Luke that this is an all-party committee, including Government members, and views expressing criticism of the Government here would be those of the individuals concerned.

I welcome Ms Luke and thank her for the excellent presentation. She certainly makes a very good case for e-working and what it does for people in terms of easier participation and reduced commuting to larger centres. It is something we probably would all have realised in any event, even though it is perhaps an issue we do not promote sufficiently. I am glad Ms Luke has made the case for it so well.

I have looked forward to some of these figures Ms Luke has provided and am surprised by the low level of penetration in the country. While we may be coming from behind, I am glad that at least there is a strong emphasis in the Department on communications. Some of us might feel other areas of the Department are suffering due to the complete emphasis on broadband and rolling out this technology.

I am surprised by one figure which states that, by 2008, 28% of all EU households will have broadband while only 14% in Ireland will. What is Ms Luke's source for that figure given the investment being made and the access we are told will be available throughout the country? Will the 14% be mostly urban based or will it be spread more evenly? Does she agree that it will be 14% not because the option will be unavailable, because it probably will, but because there will not be the interest in broadband technology that we might expect? Does she agree that only businesses will be interested in availing of this and that households will not be as interested as perhaps they might be in some EU member states?

Ms Luke

I will deal with the issue of the roll-out of broadband being costly. The reality is that it is costly but the Government and its predecessor realised that this was the case and that the system needs to be supported, especially in more rural areas. That is why there was an initial call for proposals in 1999 and 2000 and also for metropolitan area networks at the end of 2001.

I am frustrated by the speed of the roll-out in Ireland. I am also concerned because the playing field changes so quickly. It does not take long to lose ground rapidly. If roll-out only occurs a year or two years down the line, we will fall behind. I am not the only one saying this. Forfás has also said it.

We are past the stage of asking if it will happen and if the Internet will ever catch on. It is here and is the way people do business and the way business will increasingly be done. DSL or broadband at relatively low levels, below a megabit per second, would be very basic infrastructure. This is a huge subject and there is limited time but there are some interesting links. I am not saying I am anti-Eircom or anti-Government. We need to take action in this area quickly. According to Forfás, we are already about 30 months behind our competitors, those countries which, like Ireland, also want to be knowledge economies. Ireland has stated this aim publicly.

I have a few figures. I read recently that Pfizer, the international pharmaceutical company, has a sales force of 13,000 and is issuing 10,000 with DSL immediately, while the other 3,000 who live in very dispersed areas will probably be connected to broadband by satellite. The reason it is doing this is purely because it makes sound business sense. With broadband, video conferencing can finally take off.

We have been reading about video conferencing since the mid-1990s or even before that. People using it had to sit still and not make any sudden movements. It was not a very relaxing experience. That was the start of it. The bandwidth takes care of that and makes it more spontaneous and available. One does not have to go to a huge room with large facilities. This is something that can be done from desktop to desktop. One can chat to one's colleague remotely. It does not matter if one is in the same building. Through broadband, it has finally reached the stage where it is interesting and can be easily used. The Internet and video conferencing have come of age.

In Japan, they are talking about 100 Mbps. I read this recently on Ireland Off-line. People in Japan are fortunate to be able to download videos and music, play games on-line and surf the Internet to their hearts' content. They also have telephones that plug into the computer and can make phone calls that do not cost them anything. This would be of concern to telecoms operators. This is all done over the Internet at this stage.

The reason Internet uptake in Ireland has stagnated and there is a relatively low level of use by those who have it is because it is expensive. As it is not unmetered, people must pay by the minute. That is a barrier. People are happy to pay €30 a month for their Sky Television subscription. The Internet could be just as entertaining and much more informative and useful. People would jump at the chance to pay €30 a month for "always on" broadband and international experience shows this. It must be at a certain affordable price but, once it is in place, it will sell itself by word of mouth as people talk about their experiences. People who have broadband tend to spend a lot more time on-line than others.

I did a lot of this research over the weekend to obtain the latest figures and it was excruciatingly boring with my dial-up connection. As an example of the level of daily frustration people experience when using the Internet, one principal of a primary school is told off regularly by the Department for not using her Internet connection allowance every month. She says she cannot get the children to use the Internet - they are too bored because it is too slow. We do not see the Internet as it should be. It is much more interesting, rich and interactive than we can experience. The reason we cannot experience this is purely due the lack of broadband.

There is a really good development in England that we should look at and encourage here as well. There, people can log on to certain websites and can see where DSL is available and which exchanges are enabled. They can also see trigger levels. This means a community can get together and decide it wants broadband. It can interact with the telecoms provider and can say that, if broadband comes to the area, a certain number of people will avail of it. People campaign for it and, when a trigger level is reached, broadband will be implemented in that exchange. It is a proactive approach from the telecoms provider that enthuses people as well. It works very well, especially in Northern Ireland, because, according to figures I saw yesterday, many exchanges there are getting very close to trigger level. Communities are mobilised and a market is generated.

In Northern Ireland different approaches to a community DSL provision are being taken. I do not know the details but it is something that should be investigated because it could work here as well. In terms of cost, fibre is very expensive but wireless area networking is not. That technology is maturing rapidly and prices are quite reasonable. One link in the presentation is to the Irish one, the Irish wide area networking organisation. They are real "tekkies" but they are good "tekkies" - they say something can be done as the equipment is there already. They link into a DSL line that is available and they share out the bandwidth in a club. They are not an ISP, just connected friends who share out connectivity over a network that can reach quite long distances. Some have even linked between Limerick and Galway.

The interesting thing about wide area networks is that not only does one have connectivity to the Internet but between people. The bandwidth is then much higher than one would get sharing a DSL line - there is tele-health tele-medicine and housebound people can chat to their friends. All of those things are possible in this interesting area.

We are running out of time and Mr. Sadlier is waiting patiently. Ms Luke received funding from the Department for the CAIT programme for a project in Monaghan which has now been discontinued. How good was that programme? The committee would like it reinstated and will make recommendations in that regard.

Ms Luke

The programme worked very well for us and for the people we trained. The group we trained were carers and enjoyed major benefits in learning to use technology and accessing the Internet. We took it a stage further and taught them about teleworking and setting up businesses. At a very practical level, CAIT mobilised communities on the ground to think about providing IT training. It was phenomenal. The then Minister, Senator O'Rourke, was surprised by the uptake. The Department expected less than 200 applications but there were 470.

Should the programme be continued?

Ms Luke

Yes, absolutely.

Ms Luke might give us her views and proposals on that at a later stage for incorporation into our submission.

Ms Luke

I would be delighted.

I appreciate Ms Luke has more to tell us and her reports are superb and will give us plenty of food for thought. If necessary, we will contact her again.

I draw Mr. Sadlier's attention to the fact that members of the committee enjoy absolute privilege but that privilege does not extend to witnesses appearing before the committee.

It is generally accepted that witnesses have qualified privilege but the committee cannot guarantee any level of privilege to witnesses appearing before it.

Mr. Eddie Sadlier

I am a garda at Tallaght Garda Station. I have been a juvenile liaison officer in Tallaght for 20 years of my 30 years' service. I have been involved in the development of community centres for 20 years, and with one in particular, Tymon Bawn Community Centre in Tallaght on Firhouse Road West. At present we operate on a broadband Internet connection and have over 60 computers networked together and working off one connection to the NTL system. It is a wired system which is basically connected to the television system and carried on a television wired network - that is NTL's broadband system. We run computer training for FÁS, renting space to companies that train the long-term unemployed and others. Usually there are 24 people in each class. We have provided the training on an ongoing basis for seven or eight years, with two computer rooms almost permanently occupied for computer training.

We went through a couple of phases. Originally we accessed the Internet through our telephone line and a 56K modem. Then one of the companies brought in a land line and asked me to provide a backup service through an ISDN line. The land line was costing them £90 per week and was an open line running at 60 megahertz, little more than a phone line. They brought it up to 128 megahertz, which cost more although I do not know the exact figure. The backup ISDN line was costing over £30 per month or per quarter. Occasionally, when the land line broke down they had to use the ISDN line, which was costing us and had to be controlled. Computers have a quirky habit of dialling out every five minutes. If one leaves an ISDN line connected to a computer and leaves the computer turned on, it starts dialling out every five minutes and one might end up with a telephone bill of £200 to £300 for a weekend. We got very cute very quickly.

The NTL system operates at approximately 500 megahertz in and 128 megahertz out. A company called Leap approached us; Charlie Ardagh is the main man there. I negotiated access. Prior to the NTL system we discussed their system, which is 100 megahertz in and 100 megahertz out.

I have used Tymon Bawn as a role model for how community centres should develop. There are 30 community centres which members will be able to identify in south County Dublin, big buildings with sports halls. Most are closed and do not have any daytime use or activities. There is another type of community centre being developed, as new housing developments must provide some sort of community rooms. There are about seven such centres in my area which are lying idle because they have been handed over to the local authority, which does not know what to do with them. Due to the development of computer training in our community centre, I have been approached by companies which are eager to get into this area.

Ours is the only community centre in south County Dublin with broadband Internet connection. One must have computer access for computer training. To have 25 or 50 computers on-line is quite a drain on any system - ISDN could not cope with it. I was lucky enough to be able to balance the requirements of the two classes in order to get access to the Internet. However, they clashed on one occasion and both classes needed to be on-line at the same time in order to take an examination. I telephoned NTL and, within two or three hours, my community centre had broadband installed. It was simply a matter of connecting a modem to a system.

Tallaght is fortunate in that NTL provided it with broadband. However, the uptake has been slow. It is quite expensive for a household to install. It was cheap for the centre as I twisted the arm of the engineer and did a deal with him. I told NTL that I would promote its system and let people see how fast it is. There are more than 10,000 homes in Old Bawn. I was asked by a number of companies if they could use our space. I went to the county council and asked them if there was any other space. I have access to recycled computers and have 300 to 400 in stock. I have given low spec Pentium 1 computers to a couple of countries. I saved Pentium 1 and Pentium 2 computers from the bin. RTE was one of my biggest and best suppliers. Microsoft supplied me with some free software.

I am trying to get the county council to buy into the idea. I have established six training rooms. There is one in Crumlin, four in Tallaght and one in Loughlinstown. Community centres are open from 9 a.m. to 11 p.m. If people do not have access to a computer or the Internet, they can go to the community centre and use the facilities there. Our system is on 24 hours a day at the cost of €30 per month.

Is this from NTL?

Mr. Sadlier

Yes. It is a 500kb system and is fabulous. NTL came to us to see it being networked. An engineer offered his services free to set up the network. He works for one of the companies and is happy to give his time. He has built a server that can handle up to 60 computers without blinking. The system has cost next to nothing, perhaps a couple of hundred euro.

We are fascinated by what Mr. Sadlier has said. He is not using people as a resource; he is using resources for people.

I thank Mr. Sadlier for his interesting presentation. I congratulate him on the tremendous achievements of the project. Gardaí have always had a close liaison with community projects and this is clearly exemplified here. This is obviously a pioneering project in the provision of broadband connectivity for community centres. I am sure Mr. Sadlier sees this being extended to every community centre. Before I became involved in politics, I was involved in the same area. Centres like Coolock Development Council, for example, had enterprise centres as part of the project. We always tended to have businesses, including computer type businesses, on site. How does Mr. Sadlier see this being expedited in south County Dublin first, and then in all similar community centres?

Mr. Sadlier seems to have been ahead of the posse regarding the costs he negotiated with the cable operator. Eircom is offering a new "I-stream" product. Can this project be replicated cost wise? Mr. Sadlier represents a vast area of the city. Have the major institutions, such as the Institute of Technology in Tallaght, the county council and the industrial estates at City West and Park West, given the project any significant support? Were they interested in getting involved in the project? Deputy O'Connor would participate in some of these initiatives. How will the FÁS trainees who received ECDL training receive broadband access at home? Does Mr. Sadlier envisage circumstances where each of the 150,000 homes in Tallaght will be continuously on-line via broadband?

Are we talking about a type of community Internet café with a supervisory role and an element of training in the usage of computers? In areas where many homes do not have computers or access to the Internet, it is good that such access is available at community level. This is a model that should be used elsewhere. I presume the connection is via cable as opposed to wireless and that there is no reason why it should not work in more remote areas other than by satellite or wireless.

Mr. Sadlier

Due to the supply NTL installed in Tallaght, one can have a modem installed in one's house in 20 minutes and connect to broadband. However, that has not been taken up and I do not know why. In fairness, it might have been undermined by a previous NTL supply system, which supplied a double telephone line, one of which has a 24 hour Internet connection. There was some uptake of that, but not to saturation level or anything like it. This only applies to Tallaght. I do not have information relating to other areas. Tallaght has been well supplied with Internet access - it is available in the library and in my community centre. I am exploring the issue of control of access because we are responsible for material that is downloaded and this is an area with which I am unfamiliar.

The Deputy asked if access should be available to all. In order to get the scheme up and running in the Tallaght area, I am doing a deal with the county council to supply free computers and software. At the moment I am using the software of the companies which are renting the space. I am not sure if members are familiar with how FÁS runs these schemes. It contracts out for 24 people for 20 or 40 weeks to be given an introduction to computer training or to ECDL or, in some cases, to mouse use. Some 24 young people became Microsoft Office engineers following one of our training courses - they can set up domains and all sort of other things with computers. In some cases, they went from being unemployed and not having access to a computer at all, I gave some of them computers and other bits and pieces I did not recognise to play around with. They benefited from the learning process. One can supply broadband but one must ask how many people have computers to connect to it and what level of connection they require.

Are we providing a community Internet café-type structure where people can come in, use the computers and receive a level of instruction, supervision and so on?

Mr. Sadlier

I came at it from a slightly obtuse angle in that I am the chairman of my community centre as well as South Dublin Senior Citizens Club and the Tallaght Community Network, which look after senior citizens. I asked members how they contacted their children. All their children have computers and laptops, live in Australia or America and e-mail every three minutes. Senior citizens do not have access to e-mail so we are trying to get them some computer training. They are a bit wary but we are getting there.

My concern with the Internet connection was in the context of how I could keep the community centre up and running. I asked myself what I could introduce that would bring in customers. Computer training was an area through which I could rent out two rooms for lots of money, but one of the requirements was an Internet connection. Due to the pressures those companies were exerting, I did a deal with NTL. The company has undertaken to do the same deal in any other community centre in which I set up computer rooms. In Tallaght, I now have two computer rooms. With a little energy and about €2,000, I will have those computers on the Internet tomorrow. I have been busy with other things and it is not my place to tell the county council what to do. Therefore, I am working in conjunction with the county council community development section to examine how certain community centres achieved their goals and how we can get the rest to follow suit because they are lying idle during the day.

I am also exploring the telephone business. There are many foreign telephone line operators in the city centre. Each telephone line on the Internet takes 17 kbs. Therefore, with a 64 kbs modem, one can run three and, with our system, one can run seven telephone calls simultaneously. We have many foreign nationals in our community. I work closely with a Nigerian group at the moment for which we are developing services because its members are excluded. One of their needs was telephone contact and I am currently negotiating with a number of companies to set up a system on our NTL network. These people will be able to come in and use the Internet or call their mothers.

I too welcome Mr. Sadlier to the committee this morning. I am intrigued by what he has told us. It seems what he has been doing is way beyond the call of duty and I compliment him on it.

We are all accustomed to coming across various community groups that are doing such work. However, I am not aware of any others that have been inspired by the local community liaison garda. I wonder if Mr. Sadlier is aware if this is being done elsewhere.

What support is he getting from the Garda hierarchy? Does Mr. Sadlier have training in this area or did he have an interest in the area and develop his expertise himself? Since the introduction of broadband in Mr. Sadlier's community centre, has he detected a greater interest because of its speed and what it can deliver? His main role is obviously to intervene in the community to prevent people becoming involved with crime. Does he have any measure of the success he may have had in that regard?

Mr. Sadlier

Most of the computer training is for the long-term unemployed. Our community centre is now an ECDL test centre. Exams can be held there and we operate a system in conjunction with the local schools, which run their own ECDL courses. A woman in the centre set up a company, initially to facilitate our CE scheme staff. One of the problems we had was that we paid through FÁS training for computer access in a local company in Tallaght village. However, people would not go to it due to embarrassment and a dozen different reasons. I felt I was not meeting FÁS's requirements for us to provide good quality training and back-to-work schemes. As a result, we put six computers into a storeroom and most of our CE staff are now computer literate; a number of them have recently completed ECDL courses.

I am dyslexic so I have a leaning towards people who have reading disabilities and have provided computers to a number of schools with children who have difficulties. As these children are unable to keep up with their peers, they are put into special classes. When they have access to the Internet, they flower all of a sudden. Due to the speed of the Internet, the boredom level is low and the children can access anything they want. At the moment I am considering providing an Internet connection for digital music in order that children can play music in one place and have it recorded or edited in another place.

In the Tallaght area, 33,000 young people are going to school and there are more than 25,000 houses within a one mile radius of the town centre, so it is quite a densely populated area. I have been looking into providing services. There is a huge demand for on-line gaming. Young people are not interacting with each other; they are playing with Playstations at home. If sites are provided for using the Internet at a community centre, this maximises the impact of the community centre. If the Internet connection is not fast, it will not work.

I got rid of all my credit cards - I have a thing about credit cards. My son had a simple exercise for which he needed a credit card and needed to go on-line. He had no access to that. How does a child manage this? If a child in Foxrock has to do a project, he arrives home to find Daddy's computer all connected up and simply prints out what he needs. A young lad in Jobstown could be as bright, if not brighter, but he does not have access to that sort of facility. How can he develop his skills? He needs to have access to a computer and to the Internet at night. If he does not have it at home, he should be able to go to a community centre.

I was listening to the comments about tele-commuting. Instead of having congestion on the way into town, why not have a central place where people can log on? One of my hobbies is to investigate access, in terms of transport, for senior citizens. For many different reasons, senior citizens may not be able to travel on the bus. How does a senior citizen or a woman with two or three children go to Tesco? He or she could go on-line at their local community centre and access Tesco. The community centre suddenly becomes a Tesco - this will be supported by Tesco - or a local bank or a library. People can access services more easily because of broadband Internet technology. I was trying to get the county council to buy into an idea whereby each community centre has a credit card. A person would go in and hand over their money in cash and the community centre would use the credit card on-line, giving access to Tesco or Ryanair. If one wants to book tickets, one needs a credit card. Each community centre would have its own system. I am not just talking about the Tallaght area but about south County Dublin - I have been asked to give advice to other community centres which are dead in the water. When the CE scheme finishes, which it will, the county council will have to buy into some idea to keep the community centres running. Anything from 30 to 50 buildings in the south County Dublin area,including my own community centre, will just become redundant.

I thank Mr. Sadlier for coming in. All the points he made were important, but the idea of a credit card scheme was excellent. If we need to contact him again to get assistance——

Mr. Sadlier

I am not a million miles away.

We would be delighted to do that. Mr. Sadlier mentioned that he got a special rate from NTL. What does NTL charge a normal household?

Mr. Sadlier

I am having an argument with NTL's television supply service at the moment because it thinks we are a commercial organisation. I am telling it that we are anything but commercial. We operate on a totally voluntary and subsidised basis. We are also in the process of being given charity status. I was told that when we get this, the television charge will change.

I spoke to the manager of the NTL system and he said he would give us the on-line service at a household rate, taking us off the commercial list. We are paying the local household rate.

Thirty euro a month?

Mr. Sadlier

Thereabouts.

Is this a 24 hour on-line service?

Mr. Sadlier

Yes. If anybody would like to come and see the system working, he or she would be welcome. People actually came out to see the system networked. Each computer is operating at about 200 MHz.

I welcome Mr. Robert Fitzsimons, one of the founders of Irishwan, to make a presentation. I draw his attention to the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege but this privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. It is generally accepted that witnesses have qualified privilege but the committee cannot guarantee any level of privilege to witnesses appearing before it.

Mr. Robert Fitzsimons

I am here representing Irishwan, a grassroots organisation dedicated to the promotion and creation of wide area networks throughout the island, with the ultimate goal of linking all these "wan"s together to form one island-wide area network infrastructure. This organisation is made up of individuals who believe in the idea of building a community around open access, community-owned and community-run network infrastructure. Membership of Irishwan is open to anybody who lives on the island of Ireland. We hope the network will be used by home users, local businesses, schools and community groups.

The seeds of Irishwan were planted by a 15 year old, Brendan Kehoe, from Wexford. He posted to an Internet message board used by the Ireland offline group in autumn 2001. These posts talked about using the then new wireless networking technology to form wide area networks for the distribution of Internet access. These seeds have grown into a website and community through www.Irishwan.org. This website has been used ever since for the meeting and discussion of wireless networks throughout Ireland, Europe and around the globe, and to form local and regional communities. These groups have been active in building wireless networks with well over 75 wireless nodes created already across Ireland. These are based in Antrim, Cork, Clare, Down, Dublin, Galway, Limerick, Meath, Waterford, Westmeath and Wicklow. I am not aware of any other nodes but interest has been shown in almost every county. Each node can allow about 50 home users to connect into the Irishwan network.

Use of wireless technology has allowed us to build a large network infrastructure in a very short period of time and for very little money in comparison to the alternative technologies. These include fibre optic and copper cable. The equipment in use consists of open standard commodity wireless hardware designed for use in an office environment. When fitted with the right external antennae this hardware can form links over many kilometres. The use of commodity wireless hardware, standard personal computers and software has allowed the nodes to be built at a fraction of the cost of commercial installations. The wireless technology has network bandwidth which is much greater than the data access rates provided by asymmetric digital subscriber line or ADSL. The bandwidth provided by wireless networks allows download speeds of up to five or six megabits per second or up to 20 to 30 megabits per second with some of the latest technologies. In comparison, the best ADSL packages available in Ireland at the moment provide data download speeds of two megabits per second.

One of the main uses of the Irishwan network is communication with other people on the Irishwan network or with people on the Internet. The Irishwan network allows for communication using high bandwidth software technology like voiceover IP and video-over IP while downloading, as well as lower bandwidth software technology like e-mail, gaming and websites. As the Irish network uses the same software technology as is used to run the Internet the next big killer application will also be available, and be able to run, on the Irishwan network. The difference between the Irishwan network and a standard Internet service provider's, network is that we promote and try to facilitate person-to-person communication with people using Irishwan networks forming a large community. A home user can offer services to the local community just as easily as can a local business. An example is a person with a local website which describes the history of the community in which he or she lives.

The main people involved with building and using the network are information technology professionals and IT students, with a growing number of active people who do not work directly with computers but instead use them at home for education and recreation. The age range of people involved in the network includes a number of teenagers who are in secondary school doing their leaving and junior certificate examinations. We also have at least one person, who is an amateur radio experimenter, in his 80s.

Many of the people coming to us for the Irishwan network are looking for Internet access solutions. This is due to a complete lack of affordable broadband access in their area, especially outside Dublin. Within Dublin there are about ten companies providing limited moderate bandwidth Internet access. These include the telecommunications companies, Eircom, Esat BT, the wireless ISPs, LEAP and Irish Broadband, and other ISPs like Digiweb which offers a satellite service and Chorus which offers a cable service. Outside Dublin in some of the other large cities and towns ADSL and ISDN are available if one is within range of a local enabled telephone exchange. Outside these areas one is lucky to approach full rate 56 kilobits per second modem dial-up speeds. There is a wide digital divide between Dublin and the rest of the country, and on international and EU rankings the whole country has continued to be placed very near the bottom of the league tables on broadband penetration.

The individuals and local community groups involved in Irishwan, and Irishwan itself, have not promoted themselves in the general media. Most people have stumbled upon Irishwan using Internet search engines or word of mouth although we have promoted ourselves at some events of a technical nature. Through these interactions I have met a very favourable response to the technology and to Irishwan and I believe we are well respected within the Irish IT industry. Last summer we looked with much interest at the wireless local area network trials announced by the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources. At the time we were not in a position by ourselves to take part in the trials as we lacked some of the basic administrative requirements.

The North East Media Co-op, which is based in Coolock, Dublin, approached us to work on a joint proposal with Irishwan providing technical knowledge and people, and with North East Media Co-op providing administrative help and funding experience. We had a number of meetings to discuss the proposal. At one of these meetings it was pointed out that projects in Dublin would receive only 10% matching funds. I am not sure if this turned out to be the case. It was decided that we would not go ahead with the W/LAN trial proposal. The North East Media Co-op was impressed with the idea and felt that it could use money from existing funding to continue with a slimmed down Irishwan project in Coolock. After a lot of work by the North-East Media Co-op and Irishwan this will be going live within the next two to three weeks with the potential to provide coverage to more than 100 homes in the Coolock area of northeast Dublin. Both parties hope to expand the project to provide coverage to more areas of northeast Dublin.

The future of Irishwan looks promising. We have continued to expand in the counties where we already have coverage and into new counties. We are also working on setting up as a co-operative society, which will give us a legal structure allowing us to interact more easily with community groups and businesses, and trying to get funding and sponsorship to help with the expansion of the network. Up to this point, the vast majority of the network has been built using personal funds of the individual members. Help has come from community projects such as North East Media Co-op, local people, businesses and organisations. This has included direct sponsorship for hardware or access to tall buildings and mountain sites in the areas.

To help expand the available content on the Irishwan network, we hope to work with individual users, community groups, schools, local government and national Government and business to make current Internet content available on the Irishwan network.

I take this opportunity to thank the sub-committee and committee on behalf of Irishwan for inviting us to make this presentation.

I welcome the delegation to the sub-committee. We are trying to get a broad spectrum of contributions to build an accurate picture of the situation before we make recommendations and what the delegation has told us is helpful.

I am somewhat familiar with Irishwan but not in sufficient detail so I wish to clarify some matters with regard to its operation. I understand the reason for Irishwan's emergence was that in certain areas of the country there was no broadband access. It was a movement from the grassroots to provide some infrastructure for people who were demanding a broadband service. How does Irishwan finance the network it has in place at the moment? Is it linked with an Eircom or Esat BT network? How was the infrastructure put in place at the beginning? How does it charge customers and does it pay a weekly or monthly charge or per usage? Has Irishwan looked at the matter in detail with satellite technologies such as beaming bandwidth into essential areas? We had an interesting presentation this morning from the South West Regional Authority which has done much work in this area. There are also private companies developing satellite systems in this area which claim that they have the solution for certain regions where there is unlikely to be a physical broadband cable roll-out within the short or medium term. Has Irishwan looked at this in detail and linked satellite with local wireless solutions? With regard to where Irishwan is at present, what is the link with the existing infrastructure providers, how does it work and what is the charging mechanism?

Mr. Fitzsimons

Irishwan does not provide Internet access. We have investigated setting ourselves up as an Internet service provider and in general it was felt that we could provide a useful service for our members by building a network. There is much communication between people on the Internet that does not require Internet access. To communicate directly with a friend across the city through a wide area network using wireless technology one does not need a copper link or to bounce through services on the Internet. With regard to Internet access, some of the members share out their existing ADSL wireless dial-up satellite digital services.

Is the actual service that Irishwan provides for its members a support and advisory one? Do people join to get the benefit of that knowledge through its co-operative network.

Mr. Fitzsimons

That is correct. We have investigated getting broadband access, but in terms of our user community, mainly IT professionals and students, they have specific requirements, with Internet access being the biggest, fastest and cheapest pipe available. Providing Internet access is not cost effective in that the rate we would have to charge would be comparable to the existing ISP charges. We would not be able to make the saving that our user group would be looking for.

Through the sharing mechanisms, we get much of what we need. People have websites and file downloads that they are willing to share out. Some people offer Internet access, which complies with the terms and conditions, at a shared cost and some people offer it at no cost. They bought the access and are not using it to its full potential so are willing to allow the spare bandwidth to be used by people in their local areas. We recommend that people who offer Internet access share the technology with their local community, whether their neighbour, the local farmer or whoever.

Irishwan is a free organisation. We communicate through an Internet website and anyone who wants to become involved may do so. In the future when we set up as a co-operative we may introduce a minimal charge for membership. We still want the network to be open so that somebody who wants to get involved will not have to pay money. It will be free to anyone who wishes to access it, but the charge would be there to help with administrative costs and so that people would have a say in the network.

I presume Irishwan has a similar role to Ireland Offline in lobbying for action by the Government. Am I correct in saying that its key recommendations are on access, fixed pricing and choice of service provision?

Mr. Fitzsimons

I agree with that. Many of the Irishwan members are involved with Ireland Offline and we agree with its principles.

Thank you. I invite Mr. David Long from Ireland Offline to make his presentation.

Mr. David Long

Mr. Christian Cook will give the presentation.

I draw your attention to the fact that members of this committee have absolute privilege, but this same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. It is generally accepted that witnesses would have qualified privilege, but the committee cannot guarantee any level of privilege to witnesses appearing before it.

Mr. Christian Cook

I thank the committee for inviting us to share our views on the current situation and the direction forward for Ireland.

Ireland Offline was formed on 13 May 2001 in response to the closure of an off-peak flat rate ISP service earlier that year. Since then it has evolved into a campaign group highlighting deficits in flat rate dial-up Internet access and broadband. Ireland Offline has been successful in lobbying for flat rate Internet access, and these services are due to be introduced at the end of June 2003. Ireland Offline is an independent organisation and has no affiliations with any commercial organisations.

I intend to make a simple argument. Ireland is behind in the development of broadband technologies due to the lack of appropriate supply, not demand. This lack of supply is due to lack of competition particularly at the last mile infrastructural level. To solve the problem, competition in the form of alternative last mile infrastructure needs to be introduced.

I would first like to define the term "broadband". In recent years, the term as it is commonly used internationally has come to mean the sort of high speed Internet access typically available through cable modems and DSL, digital subscriber lines, at a price affordable by homes and small businesses. Speeds offered by these means are usually a multiple from ten to 50 times of that offered by analogue modems over telephone lines. The common usage usually does not include corporate digital communications via, for example, leased lines. In Ireland, "broadband" sometimes refers to the regional fibre infrastructure. However, Ireland Offline is using the term to refer to those services as defined by the common international usage of the term as outlined. In addition, we would not class wireless LAN hotspots as broadband since these do not provide residential or small business access. Hotspots are an example of what can be achieved for a couple of hundred euros once broadband is available at a particular location. They are not considered to be a solution to the problem of providing broadband.

To give a market overview, a number of international reports have highlighted Ireland's poor performance in introducing broadband. In October 2001, the OECD ranked Ireland 27th out of 30 OECD countries in the development of broadband access. In February 2003, the World Economic Forum placed Ireland 51st behind such countries as Namibia, Nicaragua, the Dominican Republic, and Romania . Ireland is lower than halfway down on a list of 82 countries that includes some of the poorest in the world. In May 2003, the Swiss business school, IMD, ranked Ireland last of 27 comparable small economies for suitable Internet access, which includes availability, speed and cost.

In 2002, ComReg commissioned a report from the market research company MRBI to find out the level of Irish demand for broadband. Without the issue of price mentioned, they found that 46% of respondents were likely to get broadband if it was offered. The survey also found a large degree of price sensitivity in the demand for broadband. There was approximately five times more demand at €30 than at €60, and there was negligible demand at a price of €70 or above. At the time of the survey, the only broadband that was available to most people was DSL, costing in the region of €100 and above.

In the Irish market, there is significant demand once the price approaches European averages of €30 to €40. According to the MRBI survey, if this demand were met, Ireland would lead Europe in broadband take-up.

If we examine the current Irish broadband market, broadband penetration as a percentage of the population shows Ireland coming second last, with Greece last. Ireland is currently second from the bottom in a table of EU countries for broadband per head of population, with Belgium having more than 48 times the broadband penetration of Ireland.

We next consider growth in broadband per 1000 of population. The table supplied to the committee shows that not only is Ireland second from the bottom for broadband penetration, but when compared with figures for the end of June 2002, Ireland is also growing its broadband connections much more slowly than other countries. Ireland continues to fall farther and farther behind, despite modest developments. We have been in contact with our colleagues in Greece, and Greece Offline has already started, so we cannot even be complacent about being second last.

The explanation for Ireland's poor broadband performance is a lack of Infrastructure competition. The low broadband penetration and low growth in that penetration can be explained easily. Apart from cable modem Internet, covering 40,000 homes in Ireland, the vast majority of consumers in the country either had no access to broadband or, where available, broadband based on the incumbent's telephone lines and services was provided by the incumbent telephone company and re-sellers. Until recently, DSL provided by both the incumbent or one of its competitors operating under LLU, local loop unbundling, regulations was only available in limited areas, and the entry level services were priced at more than €100, well above the international norm and outside the range considered affordable by residential customers. Also, the number of exchanges enabled to provide DSL was low, and the line failure rate appeared to be high, with one user group reporting an 80% failure rate. We believe this was due to poor quality of lines and "pair gain" systems, which allow two virtual lines to operate over a single copper pair.

The reason for the high price is a lack of competition. If we look at the history of our current situation, cable TV companies in other countries have led the way in providing residential broadband. Broadband Internet via DSL was developed initially in the US in the mid-1990s as a means of combating competition from cable companies undermining revenue from dial-up Internet. It is unlikely it would have been offered otherwise. Ireland has very high cable TV penetration, but very little of this is of a standard which supports two-way communication. Historically, cable TV became popular in the late 1960s and early 1970s during a time when only one Irish terrestrial TV channel was available and the public was willing to pay for more choice. What were known as communal aerials were erected so that a large central antenna could be used to receive British terrestrial channels. The signal was then relayed to homes via coaxial cable. These local systems were subsequently amalgamated into larger cable TV companies.

Because the original appeal of cable TV in Ireland was to provide access to a few additional channels, the capacity of the systems remained low. In other countries where multiple terrestrial channels were already available, cable TV developed along different lines. Consumers already had a choice, and therefore the cable TV providers had to provide a multitude of extra specialist channels like film and sport channels in order to make the package attractive. In addition, because the cable networks were developed later, the cable companies were not burdened with legacy infrastructure. Belgium, for example, has the highest broadband take-up in Europe and also has very significant competition from cable TV, with 41% opting for cable modem Internet access.

Looking at recent developments, basic broadband has come down in price from €107 to between €50 and €56. This has been made possible by the addition of a new bitstream service at €27. Though that is still expensive by European standards, we expect penetration to increase somewhat. Unfortunately, prices are unlikely to come down further due to the still high bitstream wholesale rate of €27. Excluding Ireland, bitstream ranges from €13.3 in Belgium to €25.4 in Austria, making Ireland's bitstream the most expensive in Europe. We believe this reduction in price by 50% was largely due to the imminent introduction of flat-rate Internet packages at the end of June 2003 as predicted by the Analysis Consulting report for Forfás in 2002.

There are plans for 150 exchanges to be ADSL-enabled by 2004, but none for the remaining 950 exchanges, those being outside large urban areas. In addition to those developments, there has been an increase in competition from wireless operators in the Dublin area. Two companies now operate from Three Rock Mountain, offering residential broadband in the €50 region. One is conducting trials of a €30 service in the Tallaght area of Dublin. Also, the companies Net1 and Digiweb have begun offering wireless services in Louth, and Amocom in Cork.

Apart from those welcome exceptions, one company controls most of the market, with several others reselling aspects thereof. The illusion of competition is maintained by the requirement of that company to provide appropriate wholesale services for each of its retail services. Although this allows competitor companies to make money, the services provided depend on innovation by the incumbent telephone company.

ComReg's MRBI demand survey shows that calling for demand-side initiatives, as has been done, is a smoke screen for inaction and high cost. Ireland has as much demand for broadband as other countries. Current measures to solve the problem include metropolitan area networks. Those solve the problem at a local but not last mile level. However, they will be essential for providing cheap back-haul for wireless broadband operators. Unfortunately, current plans seem to be slipping. The original plan outlined on 7 March 2002 was that 123 towns with populations of more than 1,500 would be completed. Sixty seven towns would be provided with fibre rings by the end of 2003. However, more recent announcements seem to indicate that only 19 of them will be completed by this year. That casts doubt on whether the full project will be completed within five years.

In addition, there has been Government funding for wireless projects. Notable among those are Digiweb and Amocom, providing services in Cork and Louth respectively, but there has also been funding for hotspots in hotels and harbours, which we do not regard as a solution to the broadband problem. In addition, it was announced yesterday that the BMW assembly with funding help from the EU, has provided grants totalling €250,000 for wireless projects providing broadband in Counties Roscommon, Mayo and Cavan.

Taking into account the lack of last mile competition and consequent lack of innovation, the solution will require developing alternative last mile solutions. Let us look at the alternatives currently available. Wireless has no ultimate bandwidth limitation, since one is essentially dealing with the radio waves and frequencies. There is no single ownership of the broadcast medium, since individual operators hold or share spectrum allocations. There is plenty of empty spectrum for future development. The only downside is the line-of-sight problems of a few technologies.

A second possibility is upgrading the cable system, but that is regarded as prohibitively expensive, and even when upgraded would have bandwidth limitations. There is also the issue of the ownership of the infrastructure. Another possibility mentioned is power line where broadband access is delivered over the electricity cable. More bandwidth is possible with that system, but it will ultimately hit limitations based on delivering broadband over copper. There is also the issue of one company owning the last mile infrastructure. The last and most expensive scenario is fibre optic to the home, with no upper limit to bandwidth. Once again, the problem is with ownership of the infrastructure.

The time for trials is past. Immediate action is necessary, and a proven alternative last mile technology already exists. If one of those solutions is to be pursued exclusively, we believe it should be wireless, because it provides the most scope for competition and innovation, not only between wireless providers and "wired" providers, but between wireless providers themselves. Wireless is not one single technology but a family of technologies.

Wireless is currently the focus of major technological innovation for the delivery of broadband over the last mile regarding range, bandwidth and cost. If the Government committed itself to the roll-out of a nation-wide competing wireless infrastructure, we would stand to benefit directly from that innovation. By pursuing the strategy, Ireland would become not only the equal of, but better than its peers for availability, cost and speed of Internet access. That is because, with a national wireless infrastructure in place, the continued technological innovation in wireless would have an immediate impact on innovation in services and, as a consequence, the other providers of broadband would have to innovate continually to compete, something which would not happen in countries where cable is the competing broadband medium.

We have three recommendations. The first is to support and fund local initiatives. Up to a fifth of households in Ireland not connected to a public water supply are served by group water schemes, with subsidies provided for infrastructure and training. In a similar manner, local co-operatives should be supported for the provision of local connectivity needs. As a footnote to the Irishwan presentation, we have been in talks with DublinWan, which intends to set up a co-operative to do just that. As well as funding for community initiatives, there should be increased funding for commercial ones, particularly outside large conurbations. In this respect, Government funding for Digiweb and Amocom is to be praised and encouraged. However, significantly more needs to be done in that regard.

Our second recommendation is an increase in the availability of affordable back-haul. The Government's metropolitan area networks programme should be accelerated to reach its original target of 123 towns by 2007. The ESB should be instructed to increase the number of points of presence for connecting to back-haul and sell capacity in smaller chunks. Currently the minimum available from the ESB network is 155 megabits per second, whereas chunks of two megabits per second are more reasonable for local service providers and communities.

Our last proposal is that we raise public awareness of alternative technologies. We should highlight alternative platforms for broadband delivery. That will help combat any consumer inertia that may be present with regard to switching from established platforms. Consumers should be made aware that DSL and cable modems are not the only possible means of getting broadband. Although there are no known health issues with wireless broadband, consumers may be wary of adopting such technologies.

I welcome Mr. Long and Mr. Cook to the committee and thank them for their very concise and interesting presentation. All the members and spokespersons in this area follow your web site and statements fairly regularly. Obviously, with new developments, we look to see what the reaction might be and how far off the pace we are. We had a discussion on this matter at the presentation this morning, and I take it that your overall point is that we are still in a disastrously bad situation, falling behind what might have been targets late last century, and leaving ourselves seriously open to competition and future economic difficulties. The quotes from various tables certainly seem to show that.

What impact is expected from FRIACO? A very high level of demand has been indicated, which the committee agrees is there. We had been getting significant complaints about the i-stream product offered by Eircom. In urban areas the main locations I got for e-mails were from Waterford city and Cork city, and people who were ready to go, whose exchange they said was ADSL enabled were extremely irate as they were not able to get the actual product. How does Mr. Long see the landscape developing from the end of June?

In relation to the incumbent, one of the Forfás reports argued that we should try to encourage Eircom to separate the national grid from the products it offers in terms of calling, broadband access and so on, Is there any merit in that? The big argument has been that we got into this deficit in infrastructural and competition terms because we did not hold on to a national grid. I note what has been said about getting back on target with the 123 towns, that the Minister is re-establishing a national infrastructure. Support for local systems has been compared to support for a local water supply and it is seen in terms of the fundamental service and making Ireland on line when your campaign becomes obsolete, if it ever does. This is a great national challenge which this Government and this country has failed and it has to be addressed. There are a couple of other issues but other colleagues may wish to raise them.

I welcome the delegation. It was great to hear its contribution as we try to get a handle on what needs to be said and the recommendations that need to be made. Ireland's bit-stream price was quoted as €27 and compared to €13.3 in Belgium and €25.4 in Austria. Is that the wholesale price? What is the norm within Europe for a mark-up between bit-stream price or wholesale price and the retail price that is provided when there is adequate competition in the market place, and there is not here unfortunately?

My next question is of a more general nature. The delegation has made a number of recommendations. I presume it is aware the Government is about to award a contract to an independent body to manage the fibre rings across the country and, as Deputy Broughan said, that is an attempt to try to get some kind of national infrastructure in place. Is the delegation in favour of the Government looking at offering a management contract to provide wholesale services to the regions across the country, whether via satellite, via wireless, via power lines or via cable, and separating the provision of a wholesale infrastructure across the broad range of mediums, whether satellite, wireless or cabling, and promoting aggressively competition for the service provision from that wholesale infrastructure to the customer or would it like to see competition in the infrastructural provision also?

There are different models in different countries. Some countries have been very successful at having a state infrastructure. The state pays a private company in some instances to provide the infrastructure, prohibits that body from providing a retail service and encourages competition for service provision from that infrastructure. Would the delegation prefer competition in the provision of infrastructure as well as the retail service? I am interested to hear the views on that matter because there are areas within Ireland where there will never be competition for infrastructural provision because it is not economically viable to provide it and the State needs to step in in those regions.

Mr. Long

In the presentation it is noted that FRIACO has been critical of the recent movements in the DSL market because what FRIACO has done is to break the metered model of services that have been in place for a long period. The incumbent would not have been likely to move on its own. It could have introduced FRIACO but has held off doing so for quite a while. Another operator attempted to have a wholesale version of FRIACO introduced and failed. That resulted in the formation of our organisation.

FRIACO is hugely important in the roll-out of DSL. We are aware that DSL has been on trial as a technology since 2000. Eircom, the incumbent had various trial projects and trial areas with ADSL in operation for a long time before we eventually had it rolled out at that high cost. FRIACO is important in that it breaks the metered model and removes the time restraint in place for people to go on line. We have fantastic educational resources. The school.ie website for schools, is aimed primarily at those taking examinations such as the leaving certificate and the junior certificate. With such a resource, the current situation is that people had to wait until after 6 p.m. If one wanted to use it in conjunction with one's homework in a primary school one would have to wait a long time. To be able to go on line before 6 p.m. for this flat rate is hugely important.

I mention here the line failure rate of the ADSL service and the feed back we have been getting from members in urban areas in Dublin and also in Waterford and in some of the exchanges that have been enabled. In his presentation Mr. Cook mentioned the presence of a pair gain device. Pair gain devices are in place in various parts of the country because at the time new phone lines were required it was easier to put in one of these devices and turn one regular phone line into two phone lines. Only a small piece of the phone line is needed to carry voice. In many places these splitters are in place and prevent DSL working over the line. The DSL technology actually means the whole line and if a splitter is on this line it prevents it. The use of splitters in particular areas is a contributing factor to the high line failure rate and it also raises questions about the quality of the network in particular areas where those who live close to exchanges should be able to avail of DSL yet they are failing this test.

On the LoopCo - that is the term for the separation of Eircom's network - I attended the eighth telecommunications hearing in Brussels last year. This was a big topic of discussion at that hearing in relation to competitors seeking the possibility of the infrastructure being separated to a greater extent. At present we have a separation in incumbents between the retail side and the wholesale side but there is no direct separation with the actual infrastructure. The committee mentioned that the Government gave away the network with Eircom. Obviously, expertise and knowledge are required in looking after such a network. It is an interesting possibility but I am more hopeful with regard to the development going on with the metropolitan network. The LoopCo idea would be the best possible choice but it is quite unlikely at this stage.

Another question arises. If there are such problems with the line failure of DSL, what guarantee do we have as to the state of that network? Questions could arise about its quality. I will hand over to Mr. Cook who will address the rest of the questions.

Mr. Cook

I agree with the question of separating the network. It is our opinion that the horse has bolted and we must make plans, considering the status quo.

To answer the shorter questions before I get to the main question, the €27 we referred to is the wholesale bitstream price. As far as acceptable mark-up is concerned, we are not in a position to say. As for a wholesale bandwidth re-seller, it is our understanding that the future plan of the managed services entity is to light dark fibre after the initial metropolitan area network is functioning. We would welcome that as a future objective of a managed services entity.

On the question about competition in the provision of infrastructure or the provision of retail services, given the current state of the market and the lack of an alternative last mile infrastructure, if asked I would have efforts concentrated on competition at an infrastructural level rather than competing in retail services, considering that existing retail services are not competition in the real sense of the word.

I want to get back to the point about comparing the group water scheme to what I would term a group data scheme. In the United States, the department of agriculture runs a rural utility service and, together with the federal communications commission, it is engaged in a $1.4 billion scheme to assist rural areas to provide for their own communication needs. It is that model, in conjunction with the setting up of communities on the model of the communities within IrishWan, that we envisage as being the way forward in meeting rural connectivity needs.

Deputy Ryan has a question on this module following which we will move on to the next module.

Most of the competitors probably achieved wide access to broadband via DSL on a cable network. If that is correct, do the representatives believe DSL technology is sufficient for the immediate future in terms of needs or are they of the view that broader broadband technology would be preferable if we are investing in infrastructure?

Mr. Long referred to the network horse having bolted after privatisation. It appears the horse does not want to be harnessed at this stage. What would he say to the main incumbent who said recently that any attempt to introduce lower charges would lead to a cancellation of investment in that network?

Mr. Cook

DSL was developed in response to alternative last mile infrastructure competition. If we were to encourage a national alternative wireless network, increasing levels of DSL roll-out would occur but to compare and contrast the technological developments I referred to in the presentation in terms of wireless, delivery of broadband is far outstripping technological developments in the delivery of broadband over copper. We see wireless as being the future of telecommunications in Ireland, if we choose to take that route. The response I would give to the incumbent threatening the removal of investment in infrastructure is that it should focus our minds on solving this problem once and for all, and the only way that will happen is for us not to be reliant on one infrastructure for our telecommunications needs.

We thank you for your presentation which we will examine in detail when preparing our report. As you are aware, costs are currently €50 per month for the user. What should be the appropriate level of costs? Is cost the only factor encouraging consumers to take up the use of broadband? In America, for example, where we visited earlier in the year, the cost is $20 per month depending on who the consumer is dealing with. What does Ireland Offline recommend in relation to wireless prioritisation? Will the flat rate make a difference when it is available? Will there be a huge uptake by consumers?

Mr. Long

To go back to the FRIACO point, people's first experience of the Internet may be through the FRIACO product. They may have been holding back because of the charges. When FRIACO was introduced in other countries it was noted to be a catalyst for demand for higher services. When people in businesses tell somebody about the benefits of a higher speed connection, they become curious if they are on a slower connection. If somebody moves from a dial-up product to a wireless broadband offering or a DSL-wired broadband offering, there is no going back and with the software they are using, many businesses will find themselves in a position where they require broadband connection. That is another whole aspect of the development of products. Microsoft, for example, might push out patches for common software products that would mean businesses can only use that software if they have a connection. Therefore, there is an attraction for the home user and also for the companies using future software.

Mr. Cook alluded to a price in the MRBI poll carried out at Christmas and delivered at ComReg's conference. It stated there was a tripling of the demand for broadband services once the price was around the €30 mark, which we are still considerably off at the moment. We were asked a question about the acceptable mark-up but if we look at the Belgian price of €13, the actual retail offering is around €30 or €35, that is in a country where there has been a rapid uptake and availability.

The price of the product is important but availability is the key. Currently only 150 out of almost 1,100 exchanges are enabled and if that is combined with the high line failure rate, that is a major issue. It is not available in a sufficient number of areas. Availability is hugely important, as is the price.

Should the wireless system be prioritised in the same way as the manned system, which will provide the national network?

Mr. Cook

The managed services entity and the loop project have enormous benefits if we look at it together with the wireless operators. I had the experience recently of attending a seminar in Sligo with regional business and community groups and it is interesting to note that these people decided that they will not be served by the fixed line operators. They are actively looking at the wireless technology and they were very interested when we discussed the potential for using the MSE model in conjunction with the wireless technology. For example, they could have a localised ISP outside, say, Castlebar. They will not be served by fixed line. They can take a point off the MSE. They can put their equipment into another point in the MSC, the co-location space, where there is open access. Anybody who wants to get access to the back-haul can have their equipment serviced accordingly. Wireless, taken with fibre technology, provides a huge potential and is something on which we should remain focused.

I thank Mr. Cook and Mr. Long. If we need to, we will contact you again. I invite Ms Deirdre Matthews, Ms Annie O'Connell and Ms Ruth Devine from St. Vincent's secondary school, Dundalk, to join the committee. I stand to be corrected, but I understand this is the first time a secondary school has been invited to make a presentation to an Oireachtas committee. This is, therefore, perhaps an historic occasion for the Oireachtas, the school and the students and teacher who are appearing before us. I understand they recently won a prestigious award for being the most ICT literate school in the country, made by an e-learning company called Electric Paper. The company is primarily a provider of European computer driving ECDL training software.

Ms Matthews and her students will discuss with the subcommittee how broadband relates to the educational system, particularly to the students of St. Vincent's secondary school; the question of learning and global learning and the future of hand-written as opposed to electronic submissions. I understand that Annie O'Connell and Ruth Devine will make a presentation based on the theme of contrasting the life and work of a student who is technologically aware with one who is not. They will illustrate the reality that the uses of broadband will be driven not by adults, but by the consumption of future adults, or today's students.

Members should be aware that on a fact finding mission to Seattle and Silicon Valley in January, the visiting delegation met Mr. Michael Gold of the Strategic Research Institute, the SRI. Mr. Gold considered that the future demand for broadband had to be predicated to the current 14 to 24 year age bracket. He cited the European experience with text messaging on mobile phones as a salutary lesson on how this age group drives demand. In his opinion, by 2007, the consumption of data will be in the order of a pedabit of data per annum for every human on the planet, with this rising to a pedabit of data per month by 2020.

The potential for such data demand, like the experience of texting on mobile phones, will be driven by today's students who are tomorrow's adults. That is why the sub-committee takes pleasure in inviting as part of our consultation process the delegation from St. Vincent's secondary school, Dundalk. I again congratulate you on your magnificent achievement with your award. Ms Matthews will be aware that 15 minutes has been allocated to the presentation by the three members of the delegation. I have read Ms Matthew's presentation and I will mark her performance accordingly.

Ms Deirdre Matthews

Chairman, Members of the Oireachtas, ladies and gentlemen, I thank you for affording us this opportunity to address the sub-committee on the potential economic and social value of broadband technology in education in St. Vincent's secondary school, Dundalk. The Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources, Deputy Dermot Ahern, recently visited the school to present the prize referred to by the Chairman. During his visit he mentioned that his Department is in the process of introducing legislation to the Dáil which will help schools with the cost of their Internet access. This will open access to broadband technology in schools, bringing many potential educational benefits.

I will later describe how these benefits will affect our work in St. Vincent's school, but I will first introduce two of our students who have just completed transition year and who were part of the team who worked to bring the prestigious award of the most computer literate transition year class in all of Ireland to St. Vincent's secondary school. These students are Annie O'Connell and Ruth Devine. They wish to present to the sub-committee the contrast between the life and the work of a student who is technologically aware and one who is not. Ruth will profile the IT literate student and Annie in her profile will pretend to be illiterate to illustrate the effect this has had on her work and her life.

Ms Ruth Devine

My name is Ruth Devine and I am a student in St. Vincent's secondary school, Dundalk, which offers a high degree of IT and Internet literacy opportunities to every student. I have just finished transition year and I must admit IT skills and Internet access have been of huge advantage to me in my work during the year. Without IT skills, it would have been almost impossible to complete all the projects, reports and essays that transition year demands. On project work per subject, such as local studies, environmental science and business studies, research was much easier as I had access to virtual libraries, virtual museums and specialised web pages. I was also able to e-mail contacts that were available on websites.

When I had retrieved all the information I required, compiling it into a report or project format was much easier by simply using Microsoft Word. The overall presentation was much neater than a hand-written document, and if a mistake was made it was easily rectified. On a hand-written piece, a mistake would entail beginning again, or introducing Tipp-Ex, which never looks very professional.

I have used technology, not only to learn from, but as a tool with which to construct knowledge. As a class, we created multi-media presentations and web-sites around themes in environmental science. I enjoyed the flexibility of approaching the subject matter in different ways and through group work. Being challenged to present my thoughts, ideas and conclusions using visual, written and aural mediums encouraged me to take greater responsibility for my own learning. I learned skills such as questioning, finding and developing information, analysing and organising data and revising and representing what I leaned for myself, as this was not a teacher-led but rather a teacher facilitated project. Had we access to broadband communications it would have been useful to link up with a school abroad to work on this project.

With the free availability of the Internet in school, I was able to take an online course in creative writing from the Centre for Talented Youth in Ireland, based in DCU. I had the opportunity to access the expertise of third level educators in developing my writing skills at my own pace. Online communication was an essential part of this process, as I submitted my assignments and received feedback online.

As the sub-committee will be aware, we have recently won the prestigious title of most computer literate class in Ireland. It is obvious, therefore, that we are aware of the importance of IT skills and Internet access. However, downloading the tests for the competition proved to be very slow on the school's ISDN line, meaning that our teacher had to download the software on to each machine individually. With the facility of broadband, competing in this competition would have been much easier.

With regard to entertainment, the Internet has brought many opportunities to my door. I can download songs, music, videos and the latest movies before they are officially released. However, downloading one song can take at least ten minutes. With a broadband connection this time could be reduced to a matter of seconds. Even watching videos on the Internet with the normal dial-up line can be a task as it takes quite a while for each image to buffer, and I usually end up giving up after a few minutes.

Being able to download images and video clips has also helped me in my schoolwork. With Internet access I have downloaded music to aid my music studies. I can explore visual art galleries and museums, helping me in my study of art and history. I have even examined the Mona Lisa in the Louvre by accessing the Louvre’s virtual art gallery. To expand my geographical studies I have viewed live volcanoes online. As part of my study of history, I have watched video clips of Churchill and de Valera. Although all of this has been at a frustratingly slow pace, the potential that broadband would bring to these experiences is very exciting.

As I am sure the committee will be aware, staying in constant communication with friends is an important part of teenage life. I have been reprimanded so many times over the cost of the phone bill at home. Imagine my delight when I discovered MSN Messenger. This allows me to chat with my friends over the Internet without incurring huge mobile or land-line phone bills. I discovered this facility on setting up my e-mail account and my discovery has led, within a short space of time, to more than 50 of my extended circle of friends downloading MSN Messenger.

With family abroad, keeping in touch can prove difficult, as the cost of telephone calls to foreign countries can be sky high. However, sending e-mails to my nearest and dearest means that I can quickly and efficiently catch up on all their news. Sending photos of each other is also much easier, as it does not involve buying a special envelope or paying postage. With Internet access, it is merely a matter of scan and send, or, in some cases, setting up a personal website to display photographs and updates of happenings in our family.

Almost all stores worldwide have their own Internet websites, and shopping on these sites has now become a regular occurrence for me. This saves the bother of an excursion to the shops which, in Ireland, usually means encountering dreadful weather as soon as I step outside the front door. E-bay allows me to acquire and auction goods from the comfort of my own home. However, the transaction can take hours at times, from opening up the web page to view products to submitting credit card details, and I usually end up losing my patience and cancelling the entire purchase.

On-line banking is also very convenient. I can check my balance and request statements - in short, almost anything that can be done when one pays the bank a visit, except that one can avoid the queues. I can also top-up my mobile phone and research details on films in the cinema or any other entertainment in my locality.

When I am on-line, I can keep in touch with others who share a common interest by joining interest groups, and even though they may live on the other side of the world it is amazing the friendships one can build up. I can also look-up information on any organisation of which I am part or that I wish to join. For example, I am a member of the Irish Girl Guides and I can go on-line and chat to other members of this organisation, often arranging to meet up at conferences or any other gatherings that may occur.

As I look towards the future - I plan on going to college - the list of benefits of being IT literate seems never-ending. It will be possible for me to take part in a much bigger range of courses, as many of these include modules which involve the use of computers and the Internet. When I have completed the course, I will be able to apply for a wide range of employment opportunities with advantages over the other applicants who are computer illiterate, as IT skills and Internet awareness appeals to many more employers. While doing any particular course, I will be able to research information on projects and the final presentation of my work will be of a much better standard than that of a hand-written page. If my chosen college is situated away from home, I can keep in contact with my family easily, through e-mail and MSN Messenger, meaning that I will not miss out on any of the happenings at home. To paraphrase Collis, I believe connectivity to be vital to my learning, connecting me to persons and resources that stretch my thinking, the walls of my room and mind, the corridors of my experience and the materials in my schoolbag.

Ms Annie O’Connell

After hearing the words of a student who has had great IT and Internet opportunities during her education, let us pretend for a moment that I have not been part of this transition year in St. Vincent's secondary school. I want to present to the committee the life and work of a student in a school where IT and Internet access is severely limited, and where home access is non-existent.

Let us call me Catherine. My only computer skills are those I learned in my first two years of secondary school, during the weekly half-hour class in the school computer room. Basically, all I know is Mavis Beacon typing tutor and how to access a game of solitaire.

In TY this year, much emphasis was placed on project and competition work. I do not have access to computer facilities at home and, therefore, I was at an extreme disadvantage when compared to those who have computers with Microsoft Office and an Internet connection.

As I tried to research the various topics I had been given, I found myself becoming more and more frustrated with both the school and public libraries, and their lack of adequate information on the subjects I was trying to look up. Libraries have Internet access, but what about the queues? Although my school has a computer suite with dial-up Internet connection, getting into the room is a real problem, as there are 700 students in our school competing for 30 computers. When I get on-line, I then have to sit and wait while the pictures appear at a snail's pace. Also, since the school pays for the Internet by the hour, access is very restricted and after hours use is totally out of the question.

I talked to my friends in St. Vincent's about how they were tackling this little problem and soon realised that they were not. All they had to do was click on a few little icons on their home computer screens and they had a world of information appearing before their eyes. Why could I not have the Internet like everybody else?

In St. Vincent's they would used virtual galleries in art, while I would try to reproduce a painting I would see in a book. They had been able to use the Internet to access virtual libraries to help them with research. Although they endlessly complain about how long it takes to download some sites that contain many images or video clips, I am so envious. I really wish I had their problems.

When it came to handing in the finished products, I knew that I was already at a disadvantage as to what grade would be given to me after all my hard work. Even though I had taken a great deal of care to make sure that my reports looked like ones of the highest standard, the reality was they looked unprofessional and unfinished next to the word-processed work of my friends in St. Vincent's. I had to search through magazines and newspapers to find images and I had sketched a few little pictures to include in the reports, while my friends had had a whole library of images at their fingertips. My own presentations were so boring when compared to the multimedia presentations of my peers.

I also noted that due to just two small mistakes I had made, even though I had tried to disguise them as best I could, my work still looked messy. If I had had access to a word programme for writing up the reports, then I would have been able to remedy my mistakes quickly and efficiently and the end result would have been nicely presented reports, that is, if I had the necessary IT skills.

When I go to college I know that I will be at an extreme disadvantage when compared to my fellow students, as most will have an in-depth knowledge of computers and IT. While browsing through lists of university courses, I noted the various modules contained within each of them and could not help but notice that more or less every single degree or diploma course out there has a computer aspect to it. Even those courses that do not offer computers as part of the degree or diploma will demand that all assignments are processed in a specified format.

I will not have access to a computer at home, and I know that in college there is no way that I will be able to afford a laptop. Students are well known for being poor and I doubt very much that I will be an exception. Therefore, the only way I will be able to access a computer will be on campus and, as my cousins are always telling me, it is almost impossible to even see one of these computers at the best of times, such is the demand for them.

During transition year some of the girls in St. Vincent's took part in an on-line course in DCU. I was unable to take part in this kind of exercise due to the lack of resources needed, that is, a computer, even though academically I more than met the requirements.

My friends all have access to the Internet and they talk to each other on AOL or MSN every single night. Another of the main ways they keep in touch is via e-mail. Since I do not have Internet access, I miss out on a great deal of the "craic" and sometimes I feel a bit out-of-the-loop when they are all talking about something that happened on-line the night before. The only way I have of keeping in touch with my friends is by ringing them or texting them. This is not always possible. There are restrictions on how long I can stay on the home phone, due to the astronomical telephone bills that have arrived in through the letterbox on occasions. Add to this the fact that, more often than not, my friends do not have any credit in their mobiles, and one can imagine that I have a bit of a problem when it comes to keeping in contact.

I go to the Gaeltacht in Donegal every summer, and over the years I have made some of my best friends during these three weeks. They have all given me their on-line addresses but, as I have no Internet access, I am unable to e-mail or instant message them. The only way I have of keeping in touch is by using traditional mail, which, let us face it, is not the most reliable at the best of times. Anyway, by the time the letter gets to them, the "craic" is already out of date. When I listen to my friends talking about how they have been chatting on-line to people from places we have visited, I feel extremely left out. It is at times like these that I wish a computer was readily available to me and that I had the necessary skills to operate it. With Internet companies such as Amazon and eBay in such powerful positions in the world economy, those of us who do not have access to these wonderful facilities are missing out.

Grocery shopping can be done online as can personal banking and, contrary to popular opinion, it is much safer and more convenient than calling in to the supermarket or bank. Those of us without the Internet will have to suffer through the freak weather conditions to which Ireland is eternally subjected as we try to battle our way to the shops.

When I graduate from college and find employment, I will probably buy a computer. There will still be the little problem of not knowing how to operate it correctly due to my lack of education in computers. My lack of Internet access means my world is confined to the walls of my room, the boundaries of my time, the world of the television and the books in my school bag. Computers are the way forward in today's world and it looks like I will have to deal with not being part of the new advances which will undoubtedly be made in computer technology in the years to come. At least I still have my house.

I will not mark you because it is difficult to mark the two presentations. I call on my colleague, Deputy Eamon Ryan, to ask a number of questions and will let him have the job of marking the presentations.

I would grant an A+ on both occasions and payment of the benchmarking award to the teacher would be appropriate.

I thank the witnesses for their presentations. It is useful for us to gain an insight from those who will use most of the technology coming through. Does Ms Matthews believe her school has a great deal of equipment many other schools do not have or is it typical of a secondary school? If the school has more equipment, from where did it get it?

One service Ms O'Connell uses that I had not cottoned on to and from which I am keen to learn a lesson is the MSN or AOL service. I would like to hear how that works. How commonly is it used? I presume people enter an agreed chatroom each evening. How many classmates could be on it? Is it taking over from text messaging? Is it the new place to communicate? I would be interested to hear more about that because I am not aware of it.

How many children in the class would have access to a computer at home and how readily would they access it at night to go online and be on something like the MSN or AOL service?

My last question relates to printer and other facilities for moving from the digital to the printed version. Is it necessary to do that and, if so, how? Is that done through the school or at home?

Ms Matthews

In terms of equipment, I would say that St. Vincent's is better equipped than most schools and facilitates greater access to that equipment within the school. Our principal has correctly identified information technology skills as being a key skill for the girls and has given it a priority within the school.

The Deputy asked from where we got the equipment. The funding came from a variety of sources, namely, parent fund-raising and Department of Education and Science grants. Our participation in the Dundalk learning network has also facilitated our equipment through IBM.

Regarding the Deputy's last question about how we facilitate printing or bringing digital data into hard copy, that is becoming a huge problem in the school in terms of the cost of consumables. I regularly switch off the colour printer and say to the girls that we cannot use it on a given day because we cannot afford it. We prioritise what they can and cannot print for that reason. The school's Internet bill has become a huge problem and that is why I have included a copy of our last bill. We cannot sustain that level of use.

Ms O’Connell

I first found out about the MSN Messenger service when I set up a Hotmail account. We only got a computer in our house a year and a half ago and I was really enthusiastic about what I could access on the Internet. I set up a couple of e-mail accounts and saw the download prompt for MSN Messenger. I did not know what it was but I downloaded it anyway. It was not until I went to the Gaeltacht in the summer that I found someone else who had it and I was amazed. When I came home, I sent this person an instant message and then told other girls in the class and friends about it and everyone downloaded it.

It is a case of going on-line and, as soon as the connection is made, one is signed into one's own little profile. Other people who are on-line can see whether a person is on or not and can choose to chat to the person. That is the way it is. It is not like a chatroom where one could talk to anyone. It is only people whose addresses one has on one's profile that one can chat to. It saves a great deal of money on the text messages. I could be sitting watching the television and could get a text message to go on-line. When I do so, there could be loads of us on and we have a chat. It is a much easier way of keeping in contact, although the Internet bills that come to the house are another problem because I stay on so long chatting to people. That is basically what it is.

Ms Devine

Our class has roughly 21 students in it. Roughly two thirds of the class own a computer. The number of students connected to the Internet is not two thirds. Many of us are not connected to the Internet because our parents cannot afford the bill. Those who are on-line are particularly lucky. It is quite expensive and we really cannot afford it much of the time. I would say about eight or nine of us in the class are connected to the Internet.

I congratulate St. Vincent's. It is a remarkable story. Does Ms Matthews think computers will profoundly change the evolution of second and third level? I remember reading a debate about whether or not secondary schools, certainly higher secondary schools, should have access to the Internet, whether people would access the information to a large extent themselves, whether there would be master teachers who could teach 100 classes at once and so on and so forth. Given the experience in St. Vincent's and in other schools, does Ms Matthews think there will be fundamental developments?

Obviously Ms Matthews would welcome the fact that the Minister, Deputy Dermot Ahern, who I know has some connection with Dundalk, has indicated he may place a levy on the telecommunications industry to finance the type of bill with which Ms Matthews has helpfully provided us. Obviously she would welcome some sort of funding, if necessary from the industry, that would help the school with its costs.

The two students graphically illustrated the problem faced by people from disadvantaged and lower income backgrounds. Will it not be an ongoing problem where the class wants to develop at a particular pace if Ms Devine's and Ms O'Connell's colleagues are not on-line at home?

I welcome the representatives of St. Vincent's and I congratulate them on what they have achieved. We have had an excellent presentation in two different forms. I was feeling so sorry I was about to suggest a whip-around to buy a computer. I was interested in the cost of downloading music with broadband. My daughter is doing it constantly and it is costing me a fortune.

We heard of the advantages of doing reports and so on by computer. I remember a report on television last year about a school in Limerick which became paperless and bookless. Everything was done on computer and all the pupils had laptops for their homework. I do not know who paid for that or if the delegation has gone that far, but what are its views on that? We hear of the advantages of computer-based education, and I am not going to knock it, but are we not losing something also in the technological age? For instance, students do not get involved in games and so on as they did in the past because they are playing with computers.

Are we losing the ability to write because young people do not want to write and just use computers exclusively? Mental arithmetic is also on the wane. There are many advantages to computer learning, but are there not disadvantages associated with this also?

Ms Matthews

The presentation addresses those questions but I will try to address them informally.

The Senator asked about the role of ICT in the changing nature of education. Without broadband facilities we have brought ICT as far as we can in the curriculum. There has not been huge integration of ICT across the curriculum for several reasons; it is physically impossible to integrate the learning of 700 pupils with two computer rooms, as we have. Also, the nature of the leaving and junior certificates motivates students to compete to show their skills in a terminal examination whereas transition year and the leaving certificate applied measure achievement in a different way in that the process of acquiring knowledge is accredited. That difference in the way our courses was accredited has limited use in the integration of ICT in the curriculum. However, the introduction of broadband will facilitate greater use of ICT in two ways. These girls would have been used to ICT in presentation of material this year, but that is not where the real benefits lie. The benefits lie in teaching students to work co-operatively and collaboratively over a global scale online. Working in this economy depends a great deal on teamwork and teamwork with people at a distance. ICT can be used in education to prepare these girls for that, rather than using it just for nice presentations.

Another use of ICT, particularly in the leaving certificate applied, is where technology is not just used to deliver a curriculum but is used as a tool to build knowledge. If the girls are asked to create a multimedia presentation on a particular theme, they acquire knowledge much better in making the presentation rather than the teacher using PowerPoint to deliver the curriculum. That is just a nicer way of delivering a textbook.

The take-up of ICT was mentioned. I started in St. Vincent's five years ago and in my second year there we identified ICT literacy skills as being very important. In the absence of a formal ICT skills programme in schools, we targeted the ECDL as the method we would use to ensure that our girls had the necessary skills, particularly as it is internationally recognised. This has to be a fundamental building block towards the use of ICT in our society. We must give people the basic skills first. One cannot drive to Cork without buying a car, learning to drive and passing one's test. It is the same with ICT.

Of the first group I taught, half the class had a computer at home and those who had one did not have the software we were using. However, this year there has been an incredible increase in the number of students with computers and they all buy the software we use in school. We use Office Professional and they all make sure they get that. There is a message here for the telecommunications companies. If we can deliver the advantages of broadband into schools, those girls will to go home and nag until they get it at home, much as they did with mobile phones. I never thought my 12 year old daughter would own a mobile but I eventually gave in to the incessant nagging.

Over the years we have been involved in many projects which were potentially very exciting for active learning in our schools. There were projects which linked us to schools across Europe and Smartforce also had an exciting project in which students would use technology to learn about a certain topic. However, all those projects failed or were abandoned due to our Internet connection. We did not see the full benefits of those projects but if we had broadband we would not have had those problems.

There is a lesson here for the telecommunications companies. Give us the speed and the market will grow itself. As the chairman correctly said, these are the consumers of tomorrow.

Ms Matthews referred to e-learning. Is that provided by private companies?

Has she seen much State involvement in providing e-learning?

Ms Matthews

In terms of resources, ScoilNet, a State-sponsored website, has been very successful. I would like to see more interactive delivery of learning online so students can learn at their own pace. I have not seen such software from State-funded exercises. We were involved in one such project, through Smartforce, in which a student could go online and go through the course at his or her own pace. An able student can go ahead and a less able student can go at his or her own pace. There is a great future for that.

A speaker mentioned paperless schools and perhaps by implication a teacherless school. From the little we have done in various projects - our multimedia CD-ROM or the Smartforce project - the teacher was crucial in facilitating and directing matters in the room. I do not envisage a time when schools will be paperless or teacherless. We certainly have not gone thepaperless route.

Thank you. We will not get into that, as it is a different ball game. Should telecom companies, service providers, computer manufacturers and software designers come together and offer packages to every home in the country? The package could offer a computer and connectivity and perhaps the Government could consider contributing to the overall scheme. Is this a good way of bringing a computer into every home?

Ms Matthews

I do not know if our target is just to get a computer into every home. Our target should be the proper use of computers in every home. I notice that classes that are given a free hand to use the Internet do so in quite a limited way and it is not of huge educational benefit. It needs to be teacher-led and directed in order for the equipment to be of educational benefit and create an active learning environment for students. I do not know if putting a computer into every home, without the proper education in the use of the Internet, is the solution.

I have noticed two problems in school for the non-IT specialist teachers. I remember one teacher that brought her leaving certificate applied group to the computer room to do research on Irish language sites of which there are many. I stayed on to help and found the students to have been needy and impatient to get attention. She told me she would have abandoned the class had I not been there. We need a technician in every school to support the role of the teacher. This is something that is lacking.

I thank Ms Matthews, Ms O'Connell and Ms Devine for the excellent presentations. We have all learned a tremendous amount from them.

I thank Ms O'Sullivan from the Southern Health Board for appearing here today and being so patient. Before she begins her presentation, I draw Ms O'Sullivan's attention to the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege, but this same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. It is generally accepted that witnesses would have qualified privilege but the committee cannot guarantee any level of privilege to witnesses appearing before it.

I thank the chairman, who probably knows more about the Southern Health Board.

I resigned from that post a couple of months ago.

I am grateful for the opportunity to present not just the Southern Health Board's opinion but that of the general health sector on where we are going with broadband technologies and general telecommunications. I have a quick presentation after which I will be happy to discuss any aspect of it.

Like anything else, if we do not know where we are going, we will have difficulty deciding how we will get there. What gave us direction was e-government, which was informed by e-Europe and, because health always thinks it is different, we had to have e-health also. Mainly this is about how we use ICT and different communications technologies to improve both service for and access to services for citizens. In practice this means re-organising ourselves and out internal systems. E-Europe 2005 specifically states that by the end of 2005, all hospitals must have broadband networks in place. All regional and health districts must have broadband networks in place to facilitate the delivery of patient empowered services both on an intermediary basis by the health care professionals and directly by thecitizens themselves.

While the health sector might seem chaotic, with a large number of different systems, there is a structure which is predicated on a good underlying architecture which needs to facilitate the integration of all the previously shown systems and using the advanced communications technologies to see how we can manage the systems. This is where we come to our broadband needs.

This is the pyramid of how health architecture is. We have everything up as far as extranet at the moment. However, what we really need to know is how we can give services to citizens that require broadband technologies. We are looking at things like digital imaging, infomatics and wireless and web-based services. Expectations of the health services has been informed by people's better knowledge of their entitlements, but in some respects it has been informed by television programmes such as "ER", where everyone turns up at the accident and emergency department expecting that they will have brain surgery and a heart transplant before they get a cup of tea. People's sense of expectation is that everything will be taken care of immediately. It is important for us to correctly identify the person in the first instance and have an informed clinical decision at the point of care.

Internet technologies have given us access to a broader range of data and information which allows us to have improved clinical decision making. We also need to understand how we will use this over the next three to five years, which includes educating the health care professionals and using the ICTs as a tool.

This is a quick overview of the Southern Health Board's immediate experiences. As members know, we have around 16,000 staff, of whom 6,000 are field-based, which includes public health nurses, community welfare officers, social workers and other community health care professionals. We developed and ICT strategy which is to take us up to 2005, called Healthy SHB. It has ten goals which are mainly dependent on the integration of the existing services, using the new technologies to expand the range of services and the support to the health care professionals. We developed touch screen kiosk to be available in public areas such as the hospitals and health centres for people who did not have access to a computer at home. We were working with RTE on the provision of information on health care entitlements to people on the television. We are also looking at advanced communications because our ability to become efficient in relation to our internal and external processes is fundamentally dependent on our ability to communicate with each other.

While we had all of the building blocks in place, we had the extra dimensions of e-government, e-Europe, the e-broker, which is being developed by Reach, and the e-services. In practical terms, this came down to things like procurement. If one has ever tried to share medical instrument catalogues on-line, one will appreciate the difficulties if one is trying to stream it at 9 kbs, as opposed to on a 100 mbps network. We built our own VPN about five years ago and, last year, CMOD borrowed our telecommunications manager to develop the national VPN, of which we are now a part.

For e-training and e-learning, for example, we hold nurse study days at Blarney conference centre once a month, which are broadcast over our intranet to nurses and interested health care professionals in Cork and Kerry who are unable to attend Blarney but wish to participate in the workshop. This attracts CME credits.

The following clip is about a different type of school from that about which I spoke earlier. We have some patients who stay with us for about three months at a time. We considered installing a wireless network so these children could link back to their own schools while they were staying with us.

While the video started off as part of a Horizon-funded project called Disabled Access to Education, which has the unfortunate acronym DATE, it has now expanded to encompass 55 schools around Europe, which are all interlinked with the result that the children are connected to regular schools all over Europe. Another example is of the public health nurse who visits people and provides services at home.

The following video clip was used with the permission of RTE's "Nationwide". The clip demonstrates the work we are doing at the moment. Among the issues covered was working with GPs in issuing lab results. This is being done on a national basis by all the health boards. A working committee is dealing with the standard; we have agreed that we will all work towards Health Level 7, version 3, which is XML-compliant. This means that we will be able to work towards one national health record. As the committee probably knows, the boards that did not have a patient information system went out to tender and in February or March of this year they selected the same system as ours. If they had chosen a different one we would also have to work towards integration, but it is more convenient this way.

At the moment we are all working on the new national health strategy, especially the primary care and health information parts. We are also continuing to work on the ICT strategy, Health eSHB. We have made more progress than we expected on this; it was due to be finished by 2005 but we are well on course to finish by mid-2004. We are also working on all the other e-government initiatives, including the co-ordination of the current tender to develop the national health portal. We have the technology and the will, but we would have wider implementation if we could have access to broadband or get it at a more affordable rate. For example, on the issue of mobile workers, a bandwidth of 46 kps will not transfer images such as x-rays efficiently. We are also considering, for example, wearable devices for monitoring cardiac conditions so that people do not have to lug around a heavy machine whose weight would give them a heart condition if they did not already have one. In short, it is not really about the systems, because we already have those. It is about the people, the processes and the facilitation of our systems. It is about thinking differently, which we have done quite well so far.

I thank Ms O'Sullivan for that excellent presentation. My colleague from Cork, Deputy O'Donovan, has some questions.

I welcome Ms O'Sullivan to our committee. It is nice to hear a friendly voice from the south. I come from a very remote area, near places such as Dursey Island, Mizen Head and Cape Clear. I noticed in the presentation a signpost indicating Glengarriff, which shows that west Cork has been considered. I appreciate that.

The work Ms O'Sullivan has been doing is phenomenal. We had a presentation earlier from a school from Dundalk about the challenges facing schools and the need for ICT in schools, with which I agree. Moving on from that, however, surely health is a greater priority. Ms O'Sullivan mentioned the work she has been doing with virtual private networks, which she developed through the health board. Is this network used throughout the health boards? Does she see the roll-out of fibre-optic technology and wireless systems as being compatible with the VPNs, or is she hoping that these new technologies will be of greater benefit than what is already there?

Ms O'Sullivan mentioned that the system had been improved through the use of VPNs in Cork University Hospital, Tralee and Limerick. The question I would like to put may be parochial but it is an important issue given the way the health strategy is going. Will this service be available in places like Ennis, Clonmel, Bantry or Mallow? Can that access be obtained by someone who gets a serious injury in a remote area of west Cork, for example, and who is perhaps initially brought to Bantry Hospital to be stabilised?

I know that there has been a roll-out of broadband, which the Chairman heralded earlier, for the Cork city area and suburbs like Ballincollig, Carrigaline and so on. I ask how we can improve on that because going the extra mile is very important, whether it is to Dingle, Dursey Island or wherever. Again, I thank our guest for a very interesting presentation. If there is any area where broadband technology can benefit people in an even more important way than in education, it is in health. Ms. O'Sullivan has made an excellent presentation and I ask her to address the brief points I have made.

Would you be prepared to take further questions, Ms. O'Sullivan? I am conscious of the fact that you must catch a flight this evening.

I would like to be out of here by about five o'clock.

Senator Kenneally had a question.

I shall not delay proceedings, and I also welcome Ms O'Sullivan before the committee. I was interested in the piece she played on a service I did not know was available. My area is the South-Eastern Health Board, and I am not aware if it has this system in place whereby a GP can gain access to a report from a hospital or whatever, rather than having to wait for a period of time. Does that work in reverse? I wonder whether GPs are updating this information because there are often situations where somebody is rushed to casualty or whatever and hospital doctors want to know what type of medication the person is on. Are GPs updating the system so that such information would be available for the doctor or consultant in the hospital? If that is the case, it suggests that all GPs in the Southern Health Board area are computerised and complying with this. I ask what support the board is getting from GPs.

There is obviously a cost involved in providing this and I wonder who is paying for that. Are GPs paying for it themselves? I notice that one of the slides we were presented with refers to births, marriages and deaths, so I presume such data is part of this overall package. Does that mean that the situation that used to arise whereby dead people were still in receipt of medical cards is no longer a problem because such information is automatically updated through this system?

Regarding how widespread is the use of VPN, almost all boards are now on it - the last is due to be added this month - as it is now a national facility. This extends not just to the Department of Health and Children but also to other Departments.

Fibre optic cables are compatible with the VPN because they are just another delivery mechanism. The VPN simply facilitates the co-ordination of all of the access through it, so it does not matter how people come in. Regarding places like Cape Clear, Ennis, Mallow and Clonmel, one pretty good example would be Cahirciveen Hospital, where there is an X-ray unit with a visiting radiographer. All of those X-rays are sent on-line to Tralee General Hospital to be read by the radiologist. Prior to us setting up this digital link almost six years ago, X-rays used to be printed off and put in a taxi to be sent to Tralee. Alternatively, Caherciveen would wait for a visiting radiologist to visit once a week. Thus, it is possible to extend the service to such areas.

Regarding an accident or major incident, with the help of the European Space Agency we built a forward emergency control vehicle. That gives the paramedics at the site of a major incident remote access to the accident and emergency department at Cork University Hospital so that the accident emergency consultants can advise on the treatment and management of persons in the remote area to make them sufficiently stable to be transported.

On head injuries, in 1992 we set up a tele-neural radiological link with Limerick, which has now been extended to places like Waterford. If a person had a head injury, previously he or she was automatically put in an ambulance and sent to Cork, which really was not the best way to manage the injury. Now a CAT scan is done and transmitted in order that an opinion can be obtained from Cork as to how to manage the person.

Apart from a reduction in the number of people transferred, there has been an increase - measured by the European Commission - in the positive outcomes of persons with head injuries at both Limerick Regional Hospital and Waterford Regional Hospital. In addition, the consultants at both hospitals did a survey of their own skills and found they have been significantly up-skilled by the availability of on-line support. This is currently running on ISDN, so we would like to think that with better access to broadband, we could also include things like MRI scans on the same link. The link is not wide enough to take that at the moment. Cape Clear has full access because I went there myself six year ago and set up the clinic. We had to wait until there was a readiness to take ISDN before anybody would lay the cable for us.

The South-Eastern Health Board is a direct partner of ours in the implementation of the provision of laboratory results to GPs. The tenders, as I mentioned earlier, went out, and the South-Eastern Health Board is coming on to the same platform as us. In advance of that, it is running other services that will facilitate the results going out to GPs.

We have started with 15 GP practices in our health board, but I cannot say how many they have started with in the South-Eastern Health Board. However, it is the aim to have as many practices as possible up by the end of the year. They also use the apex laboratory system. As for working in reverse, that is obviously the longer-term aim, particularly given the primary care strategy of taking the primary responsibility for the wellness management of individuals back to their own communities. We would hope to have reverse integration of the system because we have had very good co-operation from the GPs' software suppliers as regards taking the information coming from the health board systems into their practice software. Once we get that established and working, we will look at creating the information flow in the other direction, but it is very much part of the future plan.

Regarding who pays for the system, as the project was started under the Information Society Commission fund it is currently paid for out of that fund. The GPs' software vendors are paying for their own upgrades and the GPs have been facilitated under the generic prescription savings scheme, so it is costing roughly between €1,000 and €1,300 per practice to get the routers and cabling in. That is being covered for the GPs.

On births, death and marriages, the national General Registration Office project is already available but has not yet been integrated into every board. July is the expected date for that to happen. That will give us immediate access to birth and death records, which in turn can inform all of the other systems that depend on such information. The old process of reading the death notices and hoping not to miss one obviously was not working.

I watched the excellent presentation on the monitor. I wish to ask a difficult question first. One of the reports we have is on reform of the health boards. Would the health boards be needed to maintain the development of this network or could it go on, like the Internet itself, independently of current local health delivery structures?

Second, I notice that e-procurement was referred to. When we met the Minister of State with responsibility for the information society, Deputy Hanafin, we were disappointed that e-procurement seemed to be badly, if at all, developed at the national level. Is this an area where the Southern Health Board has made important cost savings? How advanced are the information structures for supports such as medical cards and rent supplement, the kind of questions with which we deal on an ongoing basis, given that the people who may want to access them might not have a computer? How helpful can the organisation be?

Caherciveen seems to be quite a hot spot. This is the second time today that I have heard how fast things are down there. Like my colleague, I am concerned as to what will happen in Kilcrohan when Mrs. Murphy breaks her foot and the GPs are visiting. The Southern Health Board consultants, and other large centres in Cork, will have rapid access but has the health board looked at a policy of going to local community centres, to get the file into the village and into the hands of the professional visiting the patient there? Garda stations today seem to be the most popular point at which to download a file quickly. Is the health board restricted by the speed of the access at the patient's door, which, if that is the case, depends on a slow dial-in service? Has the health board looked at how it might develop a circuit of local connection points?

Our network is managed by software so one and a half people oversee it, amongst other duties. There are other boards where several staff drive to each location to manage it. There are efficiencies in the amalgamation of boards and when everybody is running on inter-operable systems. That could be outsourced.

On the cost savings of e-procurement, in January 2003 the Southern Health Board was asked to take the lead, on behalf of all boards, on the financial systems project which includes e-procurement. We expect to see savings by the middle of 2004. Many of the current tenders do not come up for renewal until after the end of this year because we tend to buy in three year cycles. Even without doing the mathematics it has to make economic sense that if 11 people go out to tender for the same thing, it would cost less for everybody to go out once.

On accessibility for items such as medical cards and rent supplements there is a possibility, and we have experienced it, whereby one means test is carried out to cover all of the services. It does not make economic sense for people to do the same means test, albeit with slight differences in the wording, for all 67 applications, from medical cards to footwear and clothing allowances for school. There is a national schemes administration group working to sort those things out on a consistent national level. We have made kiosks available in public places such as the libraries. This is why we are working to make things available through television in order that people would not have to fill in 67 forms to get related services.

On the point about Cahirciveen being a hot spot, part of the reason is that the local community is seriously motivated and when a community clamours for something and creates the right environment progress is made much faster. As for the incident at Kilcrohan or wherever, if the person needs access to something he or she cannot pull down on GSM, it is available at the local health centre. We do not have any problem with people using bigger points if they need access to wider bandwidth. However, we do not envisage that technology will replace hands-on provision of services in an emergency. In the case of an emergency, I would prefer to go to a trauma centre where the staff have seen ten people like me today rather than ten like me over the past ten years. That is a personal view. We already co-operate with the Garda, the fire service and the county councils on major accident and emergency plans. We have no difficulty using their network points if we need to get at something in a hurry.

That is fine for emergencies but I am interested in every day incidents.

For everyday incidents, people have enough GSM bandwidth but if we want to give them extra services, although I cannot think off-hand what those might be, the local health centre is on the network so there is as much bandwidth there as they need.

We congratulate you on the initiative shown by the health board and on the progress being made. Are all the other health boards co-ordinated now by the Department of Health and Children for the national health information strategy? We heard Mr. Cahill today from Heartwatch and the Independent National Data centre. With regard to the initiative as you explained it to us, regarding health records being available to everyone within the Southern Health Board area, does that include GPs of patients within the health board's area? Can you envisage a system whereby all health boards in the country would have access to a patient's records? For example, if something were to happen to one of us up here in Dublin - apart from the usual political upheavals - for example, if one of us had a health problem would the health board in this region be able to access our records? The same applies to travel overseas. I suggested this morning that perhaps there should be a PIN on the card issued by the health boards so that a doctor or hospital overseas, for example, could access one's health records.

What are Ms O'Sullivan's thoughts on that? This morning we heard from John McAleer of the South West Regional Authority. I do not want anybody to get the impression that only Munster or Cork people appear before this committee. That is not the case, and the balance will change over the next couple of days. He was talking about satellite and explained how it works and the response the authority is getting. Does the health board see itself getting involved in a satellite system to have the connectivity and the speeds that it requires?

Please explain the point that all hospitals must have fibre optic connectivity by 2005?

I apologise that I was not here for the health board's presentation but I was watching it on the monitor. I should say that I am a Southern Health Board member. Regarding GPs and the connectivity within their surgeries, do they have a high level of computer use and linkage into the health board system? If not, should the health board take the initiative to link GP surgeries into the health board system?

On the question of something happening to a member while in Dublin and whether any one would have access to their medical history, that is why we set out as a national entity to devise one system for all the health boards to communicate with one another. The numbering system that has been put in place under the iSOFT system is a national one. With the patients consent, medical details will be revealed at the point of care in Dublin. With regard to a patient overseas, we are looking at the implementation of the DG Labour Directive 180/2/20 from the European Commission. It is related to the free movement of workers in the European economic area, replacing the E111 to E128 cards with a new health services entitlement card. The technical specifications for this card have all been agreed. The type of information the card will carry is still being debated. It is expected to carry a minimum data set with, obviously, the patient's name and national identification. We hope that this will be the national patient identification number. There is still debate in Ireland because the use of the PPSN is currently not available to us with regard to health and will require legislation. It should not stop us having a unique patient identifier which can be later matched to the PPSN. An Irish patient abroad in the European economic area should be taken care of by this card. I have no information about what happens outside of this jurisdiction.

With regard to GPs' connectivity and their access to whole records, the only access currently available - as we are doing this incrementally - is access to laboratory results. GPs specifically requested this as a priority. We are building up to the rest of the record with items such as discharge letters, referral letters and information on what was done to a patient in hospital to be available electronically. We work with eight of the 11 GP software vendors. We have not met any difficulties with integrating electronically with their systems.

There are 258 GP surgeries in the Southern Health Board area. Of that number, 82% have some form of electronic record on patients. In the Cork city area alone, there are 1,200 GPs and we are currently working with 15 practices consisting of 45 GPS to deliver the results. The rest use the same software as those with whom we developed the system and we hope by the end of the year to have rolled it out to them. They are not all connected at the moment because we have to do work with the GP software vendors to get it started.

I thank Ms O'Sullivan and wish all those who work in the Southern Health Board the very best.

I thank the sub-committee for inviting me to speak about the scheme. Is mór an onóir domsa bheith anseo.

I welcome Mr. Seamus Dooley, Mr. Donal Ó Braonáin and Ms Christine Tilley from the NUJ and the RTE group of unions. I must draw attention to fact that members of the sub-committee have absolute privilege but this same privilege does not apply to witnesses before the sub-committee. It is generally accepted that witnesses will have qualified privilege but the sub-committee cannot guarantee any level of privilege to witnesses appearing before it.

The NUJ represents 97% of journalists working in Ireland and membership of the union is open to those who earn 75% of their income from the practice of journalism, including those working in a variety of multi-media.

Mr. Donal Ó Braonáin is an RTE journalist who has worked primarily in the Irish language. He is currently secretary of the RTE group of unions and therefore has a broad appreciation of the implications for new developments in the broadcasting sector. He is no stranger to this sub-committee. Ms Christine Tilley is a senior RTE interactive journalist and mother of the RTE interactive chapel. Hailing from Brisbane, she also alters both the gender and geographical imbalance of today's proceedings. Mr. Barry McCall, who cannot be here, is leas-chathaorileach of the NUJ Executive Council. He is a freelance journalist with a specialist interest in technology. I have provided the clerk of the sub-committee with a copy of his thoughts on the subject. In the short time available, we will only be able to sketch out some of the issues, but we are grateful to the sub-committee for the opportunity to present our views.

At the outset, we welcome the emphasis placed by the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources, Deputy Dermot Ahern, on the provision of a national high speed broadband infrastructure. We should make it clear that broadband is not a panacea. It can only be viewed in the context of a number of other developments. It must be viewed in the context of the need for a coherent media policy that recognises the central importance of public service broadcasting and the need for plurality of ownership and diversity of editorial content.

Broadband is a technology, a tool, but it is not a principle. Used properly, information technology, including broadband, can be a tool for empowerment of citizens and can enrich lives in a number of ways. It can be a tool towards greater appreciation of rights and greater involvement in the exercise of democracy. Both globally and locally, we need to embrace policies that empower citizens. We need to expand the media landscape in a way which enriches the lives of citizens. In viewing what is admittedly the complex technical subject of broadband, we must not lose sight of the important principle that information is power and concentration of ownership, including the means of communication and broadband itself, is contrary to the principle of democracy and fundamentally in conflict with the promotion of a pluralist media.

At this stage I would like to draw the attention of the committee to the report of the Commission on the Newspaper Industry, published in June 1996 - ironically, an old report when we are talking about a modern development. I draw particular attention to chapter one, which dealt with the powers of the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment regarding the change of ownership in the newspaper sector under mergers and competition legislation. The committee members may be confused, and ask why we are talking about the Commission on the Newspaper Industry, but the commission recommended that in exercising powers, the Minister should assess the implications of a change of ownership and a change in control by looking at a number of issues - the strength and competitiveness of the indigenous industry in relation to UK titles; plurality of ownership; plurality of titles; the diversity of views within society; and the maintenance of cultural diversity. It is our contention that those same issues are directly relevant in discussing broadband.

A majority of the commission's members recommended that consideration should be given to amending existing merger controls in the newspaper industry in order to widen the powers to regulate not only the acquisition of shares, but also the acquisition of control over newspapers by other means.

There has been a political failure to deal with the recommendations of the commission, and over the past ten years we have seen a dramatic change in the ownership structure of the print media, the virtual elimination of family-owned newspapers, increased foreign ownership of Irish media organisations and the development of media monopolies in the regional newspaper sector. That has complemented the existing dominance of the national media and a large section of the regional newspaper media by Independent News and Media plc. All one has to do is look at a map of Ireland, from Belfast, with The Belfast Telegraph, to Kerry, with The Kerryman, to see the huge dominance of Independent News and Media on the Irish newspaper market, coupled with the direct and indirect influence of Independent News and Media and related companies. It is not just a question of foreign dominance. It is also one of dominance by one major player in the market.

In the broadcasting sector, the dominance of Sky and the Murdochisation of the global media pose a real threat to media diversity. It is entirely fitting that we meet in the wake of the decision of the United States to allow some of the world's largest media groups to tighten their grip on the world's largest media market in the United States. The changes agreed yesterday in the US media ownership rule signal a shift in media power at the expense of pluralism and democracy.

The NUJ is affiliated to the International Federation of Journalists, and we have supplied the committee with the IFJ statement on this development. We have also supplied the IFJ position paper on the United Nations world summit on the information society, because the committee's discussions, extremely relevant though they may be, form part of a much wider and more significant global development. The NUJ already has concerns about the world summit on the information society, because the agenda at this stage seeks to exclude discussion on the issue of ownership and concentration and also on authors' rights. The values outlined in the IFJ document are values shared by the NUJ. In the time available to us today we are not is a position to discuss those values, but we are available to any member of the committee who would wish to discuss them with us.

The report of the Forum on Broadcasting 2002 and the report of the Commission on the Newspaper Industry must inform any debate on media in Ireland. The newspaper commission recommendations may prove a useful starting point in formulating a response that recognises that the provision of information by whatever means, including broadband, is never just an economic activity, but has profound social and cultural implications.

We must also emphasise that in developing any media policy, it is vital to give recognition to the protection of authors' rights. Dramatically faster access to information brings with it new ways to infringe copyright, and the importance of protecting moral and economic authors' rights should not be overlooked. It is not that we want to limit access to information, nor to limit in particular the powers of libraries, but we must be very clear that there is an onus on us in developing new technologies to ensure that creators' rights are respected. There are specific broadcast issues which are relevant to this committee, and I would ask Mr. Ó Braonáin to address those.

Mr. Donal Ó Braonáin

There are several broadcasting issues to which broadband may or may not be able to offer solutions. Looking at the regional development strategy the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources, Deputy Ahern, has put in place, in terms of the development of metropolitan area networks, it is interesting to ask from a purely news-gathering point of view if this offers a working journalist outside Dublin, for example, the chance to increase the diversity of output on the national broadcaster. Will we see more regional stories on the national news? Potentially, yes. However, this issue has to be coupled with that of where our resources currently are, in terms of RTE's regional studio network.

Looking at the focus of the metropolitan area networks, it is interesting to note that three are proposed in Munster in Waterford, Dungarvan and Cork while there is a very wide gap between Cork and Limerick. Let me consider colleagues of mine such as Grett O'Connor and Barry Mescall, who work for TG4, or Paschal Sheehy or Jenny O'Sullivan in Cork. Effectively, if one of them is covering a story in Dingle, he or she must go to Limerick or Cork to send the television pictures back to Dublin, unless he or she has a satellite unit which can be very expensive. I believe RTE has only three of these.

If located strategically, broadband would offer a way to send back television or radio news in a different manner and offer stories and news happening outside the major area. Greater access to such stories would be possible. From a simple news-gathering point of view, broadband offers options. Whether or not those options are the most cost-efficient is something we would have to consider down the road, but the previous presentation has revealed the potential.

Christine Tilley is a journalist who specialises in interactive news and providing content on that platform. She might address the potential that broadband could offer in the interactive area.

Ms Christine Tilley

From a purely RTE Interactive point of view, what we do is mostly take RTE content and put it onto the Web for anyone to access throughout Ireland and the world. Regarding the roll-out of broadband for the user, it is important that it is equal throughout the country, mainly because RTE must reflect the audience back to itself, and people throughout the country pay the same licence fee. If the quality of content on the RTE website is to improve, it should improve for everyone. At the moment, without wide broadband access in Ireland, it is a little like transmitting TV images without sound, because we are not getting the most out of the Internet. Subsequently, RTE licence fee payers are not getting the most out of RTE.

It has been asked if broadband has possibilities in the print area, and this is of interest in particular to those interested in the potential for regional media. The media industry has undergone a major technological revolution, a revolution - particularly in the regional media - which I believe is not appreciated. Much of the technological advance has been due to a very good industrial relations climate between the regional newspaper owners, the GPMU, colleagues in the print unions and the NUJ.

At the outset, with the introduction of on-screen make-up, there was great hope that newspapers, having gone from hot metal production to direct input and on-screen make-up, would reflect greater media diversity over that 15-year period. It was felt that since it was becoming cheaper and easier to produce newspapers, we would see more of them. As I indicated earlier, the opposite has happened. In fact, one now has a small group of newspaper owners. In Ireland, we currently have Scottish Radio Holdings, Independent News and Media, Thomas Crosbie Holdings, one other smaller group - the Leinster Leader group, and that is about it. There are also the very small numbers of local family-owned papers, most of them the subject of very rigorous buy-out attempts over the past couple of years. We have seen greater concentration of ownership, but the predicted growth in newspapers has not happened.

One of the possibilities for broadband is that there would be new opportunities. The major problem faced by online publishers in the past has been that they required people to log on using narrowband connections. This is slow and costly to publishers. The availability of low cost broadband - low cost is clearly the issue, not just to publishers but to the public - could make a significant difference. The local newspapers may embrace the opportunity to offer an additional online service for a small subscription fee. This would give subscribers access, not just to archives but to a large amount of material which they do not get published.

For freelance journalists and freelance photographers - the word "freelance" embraces many people so we will call them atypical workers - there are real opportunities. For news gathering, there are opportunities not just for staff people but also for journalists working in the regions. There could be real opportunities there for broadband. In terms of atypical working, there is a real opportunity for family friendly policies, including home working. There is the opportunity to work from home, either exclusively or on a part-time basis. This would have to be part of a wider human resource policy.

Is that happening at present?

It is happening for reporters and some journalists. One can imagine the opportunity this would give. Currently it generally tends to benefit reporters but there is the potential for sub-editing and for full pages to be made up. This is an exciting possibility in a few areas, particularly for people who wish to balance home life and professional commitments. One of the areas of particular concern to the NUJ has been the virtual non-access for disabled workers, not just exclusively in the print industry. There are very few disabled journalists in broadcasting and hardly any within the print sector. If one looks at the physical structure of the Independent Newspapers building or the Irish Times building, they are traditionally old buildings with many steps. The opportunity for the disabled - I do not know if the committee has considered employment opportunities of broadband for the disabled - is a real possibility. In regard to the provision of funding and payment of grants, the union is committed to this area and would ask members of the committee to consider it.

That is all we have to say unless members have any questions.

I thank the delegation for the presentation. It is not unlike the one we received this morning from Nana Luke from Telework where more and more people will be expected to work from home. I am sure members were very keen to hear what you had to say in regard to the whole area of working from home and having the connectivity, access and speed to do so.

Someone mentioned teachers being got rid of in the next couple of decades. Is it envisaged that we will move towards a paperless media? For example, will people be reading in the future, as some of us do currently? I must confess that I purchase my newspaper each day. However, I will not name the paper in case I am accused of bias. Is it envisaged that we will move towards a paperless newspaper, which will be electronically delivered?

People predicted the demise of newspapers with the arrival of television. I believe we are creatures of habit, therefore there will always be a place for print newspapers. However, there will undoubtedly be a greater mixture of technologies, including phones and news summaries. As someone who has worked all my life in the print industry, I cannot envisage a day when there will be no newspapers.

Given the advance of broadband technology and the ability to print newspapers in different locations, would you have any views on whether the print industry will be seriously affected by the fact that one will be able to electronically transfer an entire newspaper from one country to another or whatever?

There are positives and negatives in that regard. Barry McCall suggested that there may an opportunity whereby one would have local editions of newspapers rather than the traditional focus of one or two large printing plants. That is a possibility down the line. If one looks at the print industry - we as a union have not been affected by this major change - clearly the number of workers employed directly in the printing industry are few. I recall seeing a presentation by Gavin O'Reilly and David Palmer of Independent News and Media at the new printing plant at Citywest. They showed us a video of the plant of the future. My colleague from SIPTU said there is only one ingredient missing in the video - there are no people. It has not turned out as badly as that but the numbers are significantly less. Clearly there is a threat to employment.

Equally on the home working issue. This is an opportunity for those who choose it but there are inherent difficulties with home working. There is the potential for exploitation and a form of contract working rather than permanent positions. A feature of media globalisation has been that not all the media empires involved in acquiring newspapers are as union-friendly or, indeed, friendly to domestic traditions, which is our experience.

Are there any lessons to be learned by one owner gaining control, for example, Sky and satellite?

Can I just mention one issue before handing over to Mr. Ó Braonáin, that is, coverage of the war?

Mr. Ó Braonáin

It is quite timely that the Chair asked that question because our nearest neighbours across the water, including our nearest public service broadcaster neighbours, the BBC, are currently considering what way they will deliver digital services to their nations and regions. The choice is very stark. Either they develop their own or they go with the existing Sky network owned by Mr. Murdoch. This may have implications for us, unbeknown to us, when one delivers digital channels. At the moment, our national channels, including RTE 1, Network 2, TV3 and TG4, have "must carry" status and must be carried and placed in a primary position on the Sky network. On Channel 101 on the Sky system, one will get RTE 1. However, if the BBC goes ahead and develops its free satellite model, we will have no guarantee that our national channels will be in a primary position. This will create sovereignty issues because, in effect, our broadcasting policy will be determined outside this country. This is something the committee might consider as a separate issue at another time.

We are considering that as part of our work programme, but not in this sub-committee.

Mr. Ó Braonáin

It is a timely question.

Absolutely.

This is currently a topical issue. Even if we were to join the BBC on astra, would we still have difficulties such as Mr. Ó Braonáin's colleagues in RTE outlined in the past couple of weeks? I presume that is the situation.

Glancing through this excellent contribution I take it that a country ubiquitously online, to use your phrase, would have an opportunity to have diverse media ownership. There is an inference in what is being said that one way to prevent the Murdochs, the Tony O'Reillys or the Tom Crosbies from dominating the media market with cross-ownership would be to try to get the whole country online, which is the purpose of this meeting, through a fast, high quality video broadband as quickly as possible. Am I right in assuming this is the inference?

Those of us outside journalism have noticed that the Internet has played a significant role so far. I think I am correct in saying that the alleged identity of Stakeknife was first published on the Internet. We also remember President Clinton's difficulties where an on-line publication, the Drudge Report, clearly had a huge influence on the media. Would we expect to benefit from having information available on-line? It is interesting that many of us would use the RTE, The Irish Times, the Irish Independent and the Irish Examiner sites instinctively and would tend to go for the meaty part of a story. However, if we were preparing for a debate we would tend to go for the newspaper because there is not enough content online or it is not fast enough or does not download quickly enough. Some publications, for example The Economist and perhaps all the ones I have already mentioned, seem to have the same content, detail and length on major stories online as in print. One of the aspects of the financial crisis for The Irish Times meant it could no longer offer a free service and people now have to log on to premium content to access it.

We can envisage a time when any one of us may have online publications. The possibility exists for much more interaction in that regard between the profession of journalism and any of us. The Chairman's question really asked if we would all end up as journalists effectively. Most people here already publish speeches etc. on their party websites. If this committee's report can get the Minister to move faster on infrastructure and in the competition area it could leave us in a more healthy situation.

An earlier contributor said that 42% of Belgium had access to a fast online service. Is the Belgian media much better than what we have had until now? A recent publication to come on stream, launched by Mr. Liam Hayes, the Dublin Daily, has also become an evening paper. When I was first in the Oireachtas there were two Dublin evening papers and now for the first time in many years we have the same again. This variety of views and ownership is welcome. Has the Internet made it any easier for such steps to be taken and could we look forward to more of the like of Dublin Daily, or similar, in Cork or elsewhere?

There are quite a few comments and questions in that. Broadband is a tool that would be of assistance and the sooner we have it the better. However, it alone will not solve all our problems. Aggressive marketing, such as that from a newspaper like Ireland on Sunday where the emphasis has not been on editorials, means the paper is snidely referred to by competitors as “a CD with a newspaper attached” rather than the other way round. If one looks at associated newspapers and the aggressive marketing involved, the emphasis is more on “infotainment” than journalism. The challenge for journalism is to ensure a quality service. Much of the emphasis on some online productions has also been on entertainment. It has been on interactive competitions, opinion polls and surveys, which are as much entertainment as news. What distinguishes RTE and Ireland.com is their attempt at a serious news service.

I am not sure that the Internet has been successful in this country. Originally it was thought that access to the Internet would mean that news online would be widely embraced and be hugely successful. In this regard the difficulties of The Irish Times website, Ireland.com, with which I am concerned in some respect as I am one of the three people with confidential access to the financial records, are separate from the financial difficulties of The Irish Times. It was not possible to maintain the quality service without charging. Just because there are no paper and printing costs on a website does not mean there are no costs. If it is to be done properly there are high labour costs. If there is to be proper investment it cannot just be a question of slapping stuff up on a site. It takes time and labour to make information accessible and understandable to a reader in a proper format. One of the reasons some sites have failed is, to put it bluntly, that people have tried to do it on the cheap. One cannot do on-line journalism on the cheap.

Ms Tilley

We had a similar experience with the RTE website. A couple of years ago it was widely touted that it would close down altogether. Ireland.com took the track of charging for subscriptions whereas we scaled back quite a bit. We are now in a situation where, thanks to a recent licence fee increase and other revenue streams we use such as text messages and competitions, we can provide high speed, multimedia streaming of RTE content. At the moment, although we have the technology, expertise and money to do it there is not much point in doing so because the people who actually pay for the site, the licence fee payers, do not have access to it and could not use it. The most demand for it is from overseas which is really not what we are about.

I thank the delegations for coming to the committee. It has been an interesting day and we will draw some good conclusions from it. I am interested in exploring the issue of authors' and creators' rights some more. Although this is not directly related to the roll-out of broadband it will be part of the problem when more Irish people use the Internet and do their reading and shopping etc. via computer. Have the groups any suggestions or ideas as to how we can anticipate problems?

The large media agencies, such as Sky and Independent Newspapers, are almost an unstoppable force but there is great scope through IT media to counteract this through the provision of a local service. For example, the Deputys website simoncoveney.ie has all the press releases that I issue. Essentially, through this I communicate a message without having to go through any media or other influencing factors with an interest. I think we will see more of this.

There are examples of well run websites that people read day after day. Both Ireland.com and RTE are examples of these. However, because they are quality operations they cost money to run and it is for that reason The Irish Times needed to impose charges.

The other interesting factor is that multi-media channels are feeding into an international market as much as an Irish one. What are your views on the censorship issue? As more households are linked up to broadband services they are accessing more information via the Internet and that leads to other problems to do with censorship, advertising standards, for example. Whereas organisations such as RTE may well be regulated, it is competing with other organisations that are not regulated and can advertise and compete in a different way - Sky being an example.

What are your views on digital television and its provision? What plans has RTE now that it is being broadcast through the Sky network or on the Sky channel range? Has that put back the development of digital television by RTE?

The option of working from home is a very positive idea in one way but the irony is that the regions where people would most like this option are the areas that will probably be the last to be connected to broadband. The people living in Schull and Ballydehob will be the last to get broadband.

I will be brief because most of what I wished to ask has been raised by other members. My first question has nothing to do with broadband but it was referred to in the presentation. In relation to the print media you stated that Government was not taking enough steps regarding the ownership of media and there were examples of various entities becoming bigger. Is the Competition Authority not available to deal with these matters? Do you regard it as totally ineffective? I ask for your views on the authority.

You spoke about the global influences of television and you cited the example of the BBC which I believe will go free-to-air via satellite. Is there an onus on the BBC to carry RTE at all once they are broadcasting in Ireland, given that it is a free service, unlike Sky which is not free? Will the BBC then also have to devote channel number one or 101 to RTE if they carry it?

You mentioned the location of the various metropolitan area networks and you gave the example in Munster of Waterford, Dungarvan, Cork and then there is a big gap until Limerick. Do you agree with the designated metropolitan area network locations? I am critical of the regional aspect of much of the media, particularly the broadcast media. Because there are studios in Cork, Limerick and Waterford, are they the only transmission centres? Dungarvan is a new metropolitan area network. Will transmission be possible from towns such as that in the future when the network is up and running?

Mr. Ó Braonáin

I will deal first with the broadcast aspects and work backwards through Senator Kenneally's questions.

In terms of the metropolitan area networks, we recognise that we are starting from scratch and we are not particularly critical of the siting of the initial ones. We realise that it has to start somewhere. This feeds into Deputy Coveney's point. There is a big problem with the location of these centres in Cork and the western periphery. There are big blanks and these are the communities that have had big blanks in the provision of many services, not just broadband. The potential offered by broadband, particularly in terms of regional media and regional stories, means that there is a potential there to file stories and material from places like Dungarvan but not so far away from there in An Rinn, Raidió na Gaeltachta has a small studio based on ISDN. Broadcasting organisations will have to ask whether it is cheaper and more effective to use ISDN-ASDN technology rather than use broadband to conduct their business.

On the issue of BBC and Sky and whether there will be an obligation on the BBC to place RTE in the 101 position, this has not been discussed between the two Governments and I think the issue should be addressed by both Governments with a view to formulating a joint approach. In the Good Friday Agreement both Governments have already recognised that there are broadcast issues in relation to the provision of TG4 in the North. Because they are fundamentally linked to sovereignty and our ability to decide our own affairs, these issues are best teased out with a consensual approach at governmental level. Much thought and a lot of talking must be devoted to this issue in the very near future. Sky and the BBC must conclude some sort of deal by mid-July. At that time, Greg Dyke, the director general of the BBC, must decide whether to go ahead with FreeSat or remain in the Sky platform.

Deputy Coveney asked how RTE will develop digital television. I may be putting words in his mouth but he asked if it was a bad thing that we went up on Sky and whether this removed the obligation to develop our own delivery system. The answer can be broken into two parts: one, the Government had already asked RTE to sell off its network and to develop a digital terrestrial network. Members of this committee will be aware that issue has not made any progress because the sole group that submitted a tender withdrew from the process. RTE had no option but to go up and get a digital presence. The fact that Sky have a "must carry" within the Republic and must give us a prominent channel space is a good thing, in my opinion. When people are sitting at home they will not switch from a digital receiver to the analogue receiver just because they want to watch the news at 9 p.m. The danger is that they will keep flicking channels and our reach in our own country would be damaged.

I am not necessarily critical of RTE for going up with Sky. I can understand that it was done purely for viewership reasons and you are correct when you say that people at home will not leave the couch to change boxes. What are the implications for the development of a digital interactive television through RTE 1 and Network 2 or TG4 once RTE is on the Sky network? Is there not an implication in that regard?

Mr. Ó Braonáin

I am very conscious of the fact that, unfortunately, I cannot formulate RTE policy on my own. However, members of this committee will be aware of our financial circumstances. Our ability to deliver our current level of services is intricately linked, more so now than ever, to a certain level of funding. Whether we can develop digital content and interactive services on the Sky platform now is intricately linked to whether we can generate, particularly in the interactive area, the revenue to do that ourselves, quite apart from the licence fee.

I remind Deputy Coveney that RTE will appear before the committee in the near future.

I accept I am straying slightly from the agenda.

I did not wish to interrupt the Deputy in case I might be accused of political motivation. I have three questions before I ask Mr. Dooley to reply. First, I refer to the report which was placed before us, with particular reference to the Federal Communications Commission, FCC, which, in recent days, allowed the ownership of different media, such as newspaper companies, to purchase cable television undertakings. Should cross-platform ownership be completely prohibited in this country? For example, should newspapers be allowed to own video, cable and satellite operations?

On a related point which occurred to me during the presentation, what are the dangers associated with concentrated ownership of media undertakings? Is there a danger of eroding the quality of content, particularly in the context of our national cultural identity? That issue became very clear to us on the occasion of a previous presentation.

My final question relates to broadband technology. What speed is required and what cost is involved? On several occasions, we have stated our views in that regard in this committee.

A number of the questions are linked, including the one in relation to the newspaper commission. I can understand the temptation to put that to the Competition Authority, to which many issues are referred. The Competition Authority adjudicates on economic activity, on economic grounds. What the commission on the newspaper industry said was that the Minister, in exercising powers regulating change of ownership in the news sector, should take account of issues which, in effect, are not economic issues. The strength and competitiveness of the indigenous industry in relation to the UK titles is an economic issue. The Competition Authority does not have a view on the plurality of ownership and titles, the diversity of use or the maintenance of cultural identity. These are issues for a political agenda which, in my view and with the greatest respect, all political parties in power since the report was published - and that includes all the major parties - have dodged, precisely because of the implications of taking on significant players in the media market - in a concentrated market.

It is a brave political party which will take on Independent News and Media. I do not believe there is day-to-day editorial interference - in fact, I know there is not - by the main personage identified with that group. However, there is a real fear of the exercise of political power - or perhaps more correctly, influence - if there is a concentration of ownership. There is clearly a danger - there are three dangers. There is a danger to editorial standards. There is a threat to diversity of opinion. If one looks at the consequences of American coverage of the war, in the cases of CNN and Fox, one realises that there was little or no opportunity for alternative voices in America. The fact is that one UK broadcaster refused to provide coverage of anti-war demonstrations. That was a local media player in the UK which took an editorial decision that it would not cover anti-war marches. That particular outfit now owns a radio station in the Irish midlands.

There is also, from our point of view, a real threat to employment standards. We have never had an issue of trade union recognition with the main media players in Ireland. We now have, with TV3, Ireland on Sunday and newspapers and media organisations which have a link to outside organisations - companies based abroad - where there has been a particular view of the industrial relations set-up. From our point of view as a trade union, that has been an issue.

With regard to cross-ownership, we are opposed to it, as a trade union. We are opposed to the notion that there should be significant cross-ownership of a variety of communications platforms. The ability of an owner to influence is as important as the actual influence. I believe there is an inhibiting factor where cross-ownership exists.

Copyright is an extremely complex issue. I do not believe that this country, on its own, can protect the intellectual property rights of Irish authors. This is an issue for international conventions. UNESCO has done significant work in this area. Within Europe, measures are required to ensure that existing international standards and conventions will be expanded. However, the real difficulty is in relation to the power of organisations such as Microsoft and their influence on the political agenda in the United States. In that regard, my real concern with regard to the summit, later this year, on the information society is there will be serious inhibition of discussion on the real issues in relation to concentration of ownership. If ownership is not discussed, the United States will have a similar influence on this international summit as has been the case with previous summits.

Does Mr. Ó Braonáin wish to comment on the question raised by Deputy Coveney?

Mr. Ó Braonáin

I had hoped to comment briefly on the question: "Would we all become journalists?", to which a number of people referred.

A very brief comment will suffice, following the earlier presentation which wedeeply appreciate.

Mr. Ó Braonáin

With the proliferation of broadband, its ubiquity and the fact that it will give people more platforms, it may be found desirable to have somebody select the best bits, reassemble and sub-edit them and then write a commentary on them. In a sense, one might be creating a whole new breed of journalists in the process. However, my colleague, Ms Tilley, may wish to address the Chairman's question as to the speed required.

Ms Tilley

We are currently trialling 100K streaming. Anything from 100K to about 250K is reasonable - that is what people expect at the moment. For uploading and filing copy to broadcast quality, the requirement is about 300K. I do not have the information on cost.

If there is information on that aspect, our consultant can be contacted through the clerk to the committee. I thank Mr. Dooley, Mr. Ó Braonáin and Ms Tilley for giving of their valuable time and for their presentation to this meeting. We will now adjourn until 10 a.m. tomorrow morning, when we will have a further full day's hearings. I ask members to remain for a debriefing session immediately after this.

The Joint committee adjourned at 5.50 p.m. until 10 a.m. on Thursday, 5 June 2003.
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