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JOINT COMMITTEE ON COMMUNICATIONS, MARINE AND NATURAL RESOURCES debate -
Thursday, 8 Jan 2004

An Post: Presentation.

I welcome Mr. Donal Curtin, chief executive of An Post, along with his officials. Before we begin, I wish to read a letter to the committee from the Communication Workers' Union. It is addressed to Mr. Ronan Lenihan, Clerk of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Communications, Marine and Natural Resources at this address, Dáil Éireann, Leinster House, Dublin 2.

Dear Mr Lenihan,

I write in relation to the invitation extended to the CWU to attend the Oireachtas Joint Committee hearing on Thursday, 8th January 2004 and our recent discussions in relation to same.

Following internal discussions here, please be advised that the CWU has a difficulty attending the Committee hearing on Thursday. Our difficulty relates to the timing of the respective presentations to be made to the Committee. We would be happy to respond to any presentation that An Post management make to the Committee and give our views in relation to same, but at this stage we would not countenance giving evidence before the Committee before the company has outlined its view.

To date there is no viability plan agreed between the CWU and An Post, and while we have received a presentation from the chief executive in relation to his plans for the company, some of which he has already implemented in relation to the management re-structure, we feel it would be inappropriate to comment further on the viability plan in circumstances where we are unaware of what the company have to say to the Oireachtas Committee. It would be obviously impossible for the CWU to pre-empt what An Post may say and, as such, it would prove difficult indeed to make a sensible contribution to the work of the Committee on the day.

Notwithstanding the above, I wish to categorically confirm that the CWU would be delighted to make a contribution subsequent to the company's presentation or indeed to assist the Committee in its deliberations in any way whatsoever at that point. If you have any questions or queries, please do not hesitate to contact me.

Before we start the proceedings, I have several other things to say, but I draw everyone's attention to the fact that, while members of this committee have absolute privilege, that same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. It is generally accepted that witnesses have qualified privilege, but the committee cannot guarantee any level of privilege to witnesses appearing before it. Members of the committee are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official, by name in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Before I ask Mr. Curtin to begin his presentation, I thank him for forwarding it to us in time for the members to have an opportunity to review it and to prepare questions to supplement others they may have. It is important to advise the joint committee that on 29 January last year we received a presentation from An Post, which was given by the outgoing chief executive, Mr. Hynes. This is in the record of 29 January 2003. There is an important matter which has not been addressed in the presentation we received from the company. Perhaps Mr. Curtin will be in a position to make some comment on it. I shall read it so that I have cited it correctly. It states:

Although we have not yet done the books to the end of the year - they are done up to the end of November and we can make a good conjecture at December - the forecast for 2002-03 is for an operating loss of €18 million, which is just on budget for 2002. Restructuring, which basically covers the cost of voluntary severance and early retirement, is €21 million, making a total loss of €39 million. The cash outflow in An Post in the year was €75 million, a colossal sum of money. That was largely driven by our capital expenditure programme in building new mail centres. We doubled the size of Dublin and we built a new centre in Athlone, which opened a week or so ago. We have a smashing new centre opening in Cork and we look forward to as many members of the committee as possible visiting it because seeing is believing.

In 2003 we will start the process of turning the corner and we might explore the assumptions on which we turn that corner. Our operating loss will be a shade above break even at plus €1 million.

Mr. Curtin was not present at that meeting. I am aware that he is only in the job a short time, but am I correct that Mr. Robinson was present on that day and that he heard those figures as well? When Mr. Curtin has concluded, I am interested in Mr. Robinson's views and whether he subscribed to those statements by the outgoing chief executive.

Mr. Curtin may have regard to what I said about the losses which were estimated. We would be grateful if he could advise the committee whether, when he took over as chief executive, he was of the view that the company would make €1 million profit in 2003. I am advised that the losses for the year could be in the order of €47 million. How can the board stand over this and how he will resolve the difficulties?

Mr. Curtin has not made reference in his presentation to the letterbox proposal which would have cost €30 to €40 million of company funds. We would welcome his views on that issue. As a committee, we stated our view last year that it would not have produced any savings. Has Mr. Curtin reviewed the proposal it does not appear in his submission. Did the company introduce a pilot scheme, as supported by the committee and, if so, what were the results? The committee was very concerned last year about this proposal - it is on the record. At this stage, I believe it was a red herring.

Mr. Donal Curtin

With the Chairman's permission, I will go through my prepared statement and I will then address the issues he raised.

That is fine.

Mr. Curtin

In recent months, the management of An Post has prepared a strategic plan. The plan concentrates on bringing the company from its current loss-making position into a sound and competitive state over the period up to 2008.

This strategic plan was approved by the board and presented to the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources, Deputy Dermot Ahern, on 30 September last. The Minister subsequently attended the October board meeting, during the course of which the strategic plan was fully explained. The responsibility for implementing this plan and the achievement of its objectives is entirely a matter for the company and its management.

A key element of the plan concerns the implementation of a major change programme throughout the company. This programme will deliver significant cost savings and efficiencies. The scale of the changes required will inevitably have an impact on staff throughout the organisation as it involves the restructuring and rationalisation of management positions, staff number reductions and curtailment of overtime as well as non-pay cost cuts. The management team is fully committed to a process of discussions with the trade unions representing staff in an effort to achieve agreement on the change programme that is now necessary. By its nature, such a process requires sensitivity in statements made outside the process. I trust the committee will understand that I may be unable to answer some issues directly and the company team may need to be circumspect on some issues given the process that we are now engaged in with the trade unions.

The company's financial situation today is one of extreme difficulty. The forecasted out-turn for 2003 is an operating loss projected at €46.4 million. Taking account of other factors, in particular the funds flowing from property disposals, there will be a bottom line loss of €29.5 million for the year, compared to an original budget of €1 million profit. Regarding 2004, we are projecting an operating loss of €30.6 million, with a bottom line loss of approximately €16.3 million. It is important to note that this out-turn includes the anticipated savings that may arise from the implementation of the recovery plan from mid-2004.

Clearly, this financial position is unsustainable for any company. If no remedial action is taken, the company's position will continue to deteriorate. Therefore, the situation calls for a major overhaul of every aspect of the way An Post operates and its operating methods. This is the starting point of the strategic, or recovery, plan for the management group.

I have included a number of appendices with my presentation. These detail the figures for 2003 and 2004 - they are projected figures at this stage. I also indicate the quality of the service and the performance of the company in 2003. To assist the discussion, I also give some tariff comparisons between An Post and other major players in Europe.

The market environment in which the company now operates becomes more challenging every day and month. The rate of growth in letter post is slowing down significantly. This trend is very evident in every developed country. Some countries are already experiencing volume declines in the demand for postal services and Ireland is not, and will not be, immune from these trends. Electronic competition with postal services continues to be the main source of competition for postal companies.

The maintenance of the universal service obligation inevitably imposes additional costs on postal services. Parcel services are subjected to increasing competition from a wide variety of sources. Crucially, there is growing competition from operators which are not subject to the USO. Our quality of service and consumer satisfaction levels are also critical and major recurring issues.

There is a new and demanding regulatory environment in which the company has to operate. Globalisation is a daily reality for the postal service. A number of market operators are now very active on an international scale. Many of them have much larger home bases than An Post and operate within much more benign regulatory regimes which, inevitably, gives them much deeper pockets than An Post. In view of all of those factors, we see a series of internal challenges that the company must now face and meet. We must transform the company to achieve major cost reductions and implement best practice. This means that throughout the organisation, we must reduce our costs, increase efficiencies, improve our financial performance, become much more customer focused and achieve greater flexibility in our operating model and in meeting our customers' requirements. We must enhance accountability and transparency through detailed regulatory accounts and we must measure and monitor our performance throughout the business at every level. These are all company-wide challenges but there are also challenges that present themselves in each of the areas of the company's operations and I will address those in turn.

Concerning company-wide challenges, currently there is a lack of strategic focus in An Post. This must now be changed if the company is to survive. There is a need for much greater integration and effectiveness of the organisation and changes have now taken place to deliver those results. In doing that, we must deliver and develop our true capital, which is our staff. Other utilities, whether they are telecoms or energy companies, have physical networks which are their asset base. The reality of the An Post business is that the asset base is the postman or postwoman who meets every one of our customers daily. That is our network and we must invest in it if we are to improve our service.

Currently, while there are high and unsustainable costs, we also face the task of improving and raising our customer standards. Regarding letter post operations, there is an escalating and unsustainable cost base which mitigates against our ability to maximise and increase revenues. This must be changed.

Regarding post office operations, there is a need for continuing cost reductions, while at the same time ensuring that we maintain the current revenue and maximise revenue growth in that business. Concerning SDS, which is our logistics business, we need to address the question of its continuing viability. Equally, we must look more closely at our subsidiaries as there is now an inability in An Post to fund any losses in subsidiaries.

The strategic, or recovery, plan, sets out to meet a very complex series of challenges and issues. It amounts to a fundamental restructuring of every aspect of the company's operations and the way it manages them. I will give the committee a broad outline of the main features of the plan. The principal objective of the strategic plan is to minimise losses, specifically in the latter quarter of 2003 and in 2004. Our objective is to break even in 2005 and we believe that the company can return to an acceptable level of profitability in the period 2006-08. In order for this to happen, we have identified a number of actions which must be undertaken.

There must be much greater strategic focus within the company. As part of that focus, there will be no further investment in new businesses outside the core investment and there will be no further international activities. We will need to sell a number of non-core investments. We plan to postpone action on an overall strategic alliance and it is our intention to withdraw from inappropriate activities as we identify them.

The organisation must become more integrated and considerably more effective. For this to happen, we have created a new slimmed down organisational structure. We have removed the group structure as well as the business unit structure and we have rationalised our senior management team. The true asset of An Post is its human resource potential. We must now fully realise that potential. To do that, we are creating a new centralised human resources structure. We intend to introduce training and education programmes to fully maximise the capability of the staff. A critical issue is to remove the "them and us" attitudes and practices within the company. In doing that, it is our intention to develop a partnership process that delivers through business results.

We have unsustainable costs and they must be eliminated. Consequently, we must obtain significant cost reductions in every part of the business. We are reducing corporate management by 20% in 2004 and will reduce it by a further 20% in 2005. That includes rationalising the IT services within the company and involves a reduction of approximately 120 staff in the headquarters areas. There is a need to sell surplus property and other surplus assets to assist in the funding of the cost reduction programmes. Typically, we will reduce property costs by €1 million per year. In addition, we will reduce discretionary spending and non-pay costs. Our target is around €10 million per annum in those areas. Management performance bonuses will not be paid until the company meets and reaches its targets.

This is a very extensive cost saving programme. Despite the projected cost savings which can be made within the business, the reality is that those cost savings will not deliver financial stability for An Post. In addition, we need to maximise the revenue within the company. To do that, we are introducing cost reflective pricing for non-USO and international mail services. There will be a need to submit an additional price increase request for An Post in 2004. We have established a task force to ensure that we maximise and protect the revenue that is already due to An Post. We are currently working within the company to develop and implement a range of new products and revenue initiatives.

Our customer standards must be raised. To do that, we must develop a culture of customer service to compete in the market. We will need to improve our service level performance on our next day deliveries. Moreover, we need to monitor and reduce queues in the post office business which is a source of potential growth within our business. Next year, we will introduce a customer charter which will include financial penalties for An Post where there are verifiable service deficiencies.

In the area of letter post operations, we need to revise the organisational structure. Currently, we are in the process of engaging with the unions to negotiate a staffing reduction of 1,350 and parallel productivity improvements. Capital expenditure will be all but eliminated within the business for the next two years. Non-pay cost reductions of the order of €6 million per annum are targeted. It is our intention to examine the prospect of introducing a contractor model and to look at product development proposals that would refresh and re-invigorate some of the business offerings from An Post.

In the area of post office operations, we need to continue and accelerate the post office rationalisation programme. We also need to continue the reduction of headquarters overheads and to reduce the discretionary spend and non-pay spend to the order of €4 million per annum.

We are considering the reallocation of the TV licence debt collection activities. We must reverse losses in, or close, any loss-making subsidiary. We are finalising proposals to the NTMA and to the Government to accelerate revenue generations from the savings products that we currently undertake. We must vigorously defend our social welfare contract as a very important source of income to the company. It is our intention to negotiate with financial services institutions to increase revenue and footfall through the retail business of the post office. We are looking at the non-core subsidiaries with the intention of selling off a number of those businesses.

It is important for us to develop a much deeper understanding of both the current and future business models for post office operations and postal services in Ireland. An Post traditionally has been the means of communication between governmental services and the population of Ireland. This was done mainly through letter post.

We believe that the company, given its brand position, trust and positioning in over 5,000 locations throughout the country, has the means and capability to take advantage of current technology change. We hope to be part of the new forms of communication, namely, digital, electronic and broadband. As regards SDS and our subsidiary businesses, we are exiting unprofitable business in SDS. There has been a significant improvement in the cost profile of the business through the introduction of the owner-driver model. We are now prioritising full implementation of the SDS restructuring plan and we continue to evaluate options for strategic alliances within the business. We are controlling and reviewing all our subsidiary company performances. We will sell non-core subsidiary businesses.

I believe An Post is now on the knife edge. There is very little scope for any slippage or adverse market developments for the company. The strategic plan must be implemented sooner rather than later. It is vital that the board, shareholders, regulator, management and unions recognise the risks and implications implicit in not implementing the plan. If progress in implementation is slower than planned or if there are more negative market developments than anticipated, then there will be a need for adjustments to the plan. The adjustments will impact on staff and customers.

An Post is an important company in Ireland. It provides services that are vital to both the economic and social fabric of the country. It is a major employer, providing jobs throughout Ireland. It provides universal services and at uniform prices, whether the customer is in Dublin, Donegal or Kerry. The company is in deep financial difficulties and its future is at risk. The company must solve its own problems by taking the actions that are necessary to achieve financial stability. The board and management have responsibility for ensuring that these actions are now taken and the results are achieved. In doing so, we act in the interests of the company, of our owner and customers and the staff.

Before I ask Deputy Brady to put questions, will Mr. Curtin deal with the matters I raised at the start of the meeting?

Mr. Curtin

The first issue was on the 2002 outcome, which I understand from the Chairman was an €18 million operational loss and €21 million extraordinary loss due to restructuring. The actual outcome was an operating loss of €15.4 million, but the cost of business restructuring was significantly higher. My colleague, Mr. McGivern, may comment on it. I am comfortable that the €52 million reflects the necessary allowance for the level of restructuring being considered in the company.

: When did Mr. Curtin take up his appointment with An Post?

Mr. Curtin

I took up duty in July 2003.

Mr. Curtin would have been given the financial information on the company which projected a profit of €1 million for 2003.

Mr. Curtin

That is correct, Chairman.

When did Mr. Curtin discover that the company would lose €47 million?

Mr. Curtin

It is correct to say that when I entered the company I received the figures that the committee received. In July, we were undertaking the final discussions and negations with ComReg on a price increase and in that context I undertook a review of the financial situation; I also brought in external assistance. At that stage there were indications that the operating deficit was likely to be in excess of €50 million. We took a number of immediate actions to save the company approximately €5 million to €6 million.

Mr. Curtin realised in July 2003, a month after taking up his appointment, that the company would not make a profit of €1 million as previously indicated to the committee in An Post's financial report. Is it correct that Mr. McGivern is the acting finance director?

Mr. Ciaran McGivern

That is correct.

Was Mr. McGivern in that position when the figures were being prepared for the committee?

Mr. McGivern

I was on the finance staff of An Post, but I was not the finance director at that time.

As Mr. Robinson was present when the previous financial figures were given to the committee, has he any knowledge of them or was he involved in their compilation? The projected €1 million profit became a €47 million loss in 2003.

Mr. Ken Robinson

Those figures were the view of the management team at that time.

Where did the team get those figures?

Mr. Robinson

Those were forecast figures that were arrived at last year.

Who in the company would have compiled them? Is there anybody present who compiled those figures?

Mr. Curtin

No. The management involved in compiling those figures are not active in the company.

Is that all of them?

Mr. Curtin

Yes, that is correct. I have looked at the figures to gain an understanding of why they were as they are and the current position. The key reasons are that An Post took tremendous advantage from the economic growth in the past five or six years, but the reality is that the growth levels the company is now experiencing are nothing close to what was projected. There were assumptions on continuing growth and they have not been borne through. That is a significant issue with regard to the difference in the outcome as distinct from the projected. In addition, a projected number of completed automation programmes are only now being completed.

: That is capital expenditure, but we are talking about the operational losses which were presented to the committee. The figures were compiled by accounts or some management team. Does Mr. Curtin acknowledge and subscribe to the corporate governance manual for semi-State bodies?

Mr. Curtin

Yes. The board, and I as a member of the board, considered those facts and we have reported to the Department and to the Minister. With the assistance of outside support, we have identified weaknesses in the financial reporting in the company. We have listed the actions to be taken and they are now being taken. The board is continuously monitoring those changes in financial reporting.

Mr. Curtin is not in a position to tell us who compiled the figures or - I hate using these words - who cooked the books for this committee, but perhaps when he has time to reflect on it, he might be able to forward the information to the committee.

I want to preface my questions by stating I believe the former CEO misrepresented the situation and completely misled this committee. In Mr. Curtin's introduction, he stated that the team may have to be circumspect on certain issues. I would not be happy with selective information from the company. I would like to have the full picture. The former CEO of An Post, Mr. Hynes, made a presentation to the committee in 1991. We were not here at the time, but I read up on it. I am a former employee of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs, as it was then, and a former member of the CWU. The plans gave rise to unrest among staff and political controversy. The train never left the station. How critical to the plans is support from the trade union movement? Have the plans been discussed with the union, and, if so, what stage have they reached? If not, what is Mr. Curtin's assessment of the likelihood of reaching agreement? Will Mr. Curtin provide a list of consultants and the cost of engaging them? What are the main obstacles to reaching agreement on the transformation programme, the pay and reward system and the ESOP, which I believe is now on the back burner? Is there a sense among the unions that An Post has not honoured the transformation agreement signed in July 2000? I believe the company will have to find a solution to that problem in order to move forward.

Will the viability plan be impossible to implement if there is a failure to reach agreement? If agreement cannot be reached, has the company another plan in place? The former CEO, Mr. Hynes appeared before the committee - Mr. Robinson was with him - and spoke of the success of the SDS subsidiary, which has got into some difficulties due to competition. Mr. Curtin stated in his presentation that it is very important to train staff to make them more customer orientated. I would have thought training was ongoing and a company would not wait until it was in difficulties to realise that staff had to be trained and made aware of customer service issues. Mr. Robinson might be able to answer that question.

In reply to the Chairman, Mr. Curtin said that none of the previous management team is now in the company. Perhaps he could tell us the circumstances in which they exited from the company. How many subsidiary companies are there and are they profitable or loss making? Does An Post have surplus buildings which it intends to sell off?

Perhaps we should allow Mr. Curtin to answer those questions and Deputy Brady will have another opportunity to ask more questions. I want to give Deputy Coveney an opportunity to put questions. Deputy Brady's most important questions were on the negotiations that are taking place and, as we agreed before lunch, we can then move down through the questions on the different modules.

That is fair, Chairman.

Mr. Curtin

The main thrust of the initial part of the Deputy's question is the current management team's attitude and involvement with the trade unions on the negotiation of this proposal. The Deputy can take it that it is not only the management team's view but my own personal view that such a programme of change cannot and should not be achieved by means other than through negotiations and by agreement. It is a fundamental change to the long-term health of the company and I believe it can only be done through the consensus of the management and the workforce. To that extent, we have engaged in very significant levels of discussions with all the trade unions in An Post since October when the plan was approved by the board of An Post. Throughout November and into December we have been in detailed discussion with all the unions outlining the necessary consequences of the changes that must take place. These discussions are still ongoing with a number of trade unions. The Deputy asked my view of the likelihood of success.

I read into the record a letter from the Communications Workers' Union, stating that there were no discussions yet on the strategic plan; there was a presentation. Is that correct, Mr. Curtin? It is unfortunate that we will not have the benefit of the union's view today.

Mr. Curtin

There has been a presentation under the strategic plan and all the unions have had details discussions with An Post at different levels outlining the necessary changes from the perspective of the management.

Does that include the Communications Workers' Union because I read a letter from the union?

Mr. Curtin

Yes.

On the question of the likelihood of reaching agreement, it is vital that we reach agreement; there is no way other than to agree. Given the complexity and the degree of change, this can only be done by agreement. My management team and the board of An Post are fully committed to pursuing a negotiated agreement to arrive at a satisfactory conclusion and implementation of the necessary change programmes. There are obstacles and it would be disingenuous and dishonest of me to say anything else. It is a very complex and difficult situation for everybody and I believe all sides have come to the table honourably with a view to seeking solutions, but that does not make it any easier. The questions are complex and embedded in the history of a company that has not changed as dramatically as other companies in the economy because its business did not change dramatically. Now, however, it is changing very significantly because we have electronic substitution, which is eroding and corroding the company on a daily basis. If we do not change, and change quickly, what will be left of An Post is quite frightening and difficult to comprehend. I believe the imperative is on all sides to reach an agreement quickly before the company further deteriorates in terms of its financial performance.

For the benefit of the committee, what is the timeframe for the finalisation of the discussions and the implementation of the plan?

Mr. Curtin

It is imperative that the discussions reach a conclusion by February because the plan is predicated on the benefits of implementation kicking in by mid-2004. In order to conclude agreements to initiate implementation, the conclusion of negotiations by February is a key target.

I asked about surplus properties.

We will come to that later.

I am interested in that, Chairman.

We will come back to it later.

My questions relate to the strategic plan and the procedure that has been followed so far. I was surprised to hear Mr. Curtin state that he has had detailed discussions with the CWU because, from the information that other members of the committee and I have, the CWU is of the opposite view: that it has not had detailed discussions on the strategic plan. This needs to be further clarified. On the proposal for an ESOPwhich may be part of the strategic plan moving forward, who has responsibility for the decision making on an ESOP? Is it the Minister, the Government or An Post and its management? Is it the case that An Post management received a letter from the Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources asking it to revise its plans on moving forward with an ESOP? We need some clarity on that matter, as does the union involved.

I had intended to ask about the timescale but that question has been answered, although I am somewhat surprised because a presentation was made to us this morning from a group representing the interests of the post office in Clonakilty and they felt that implementation would not come into play until 2005. Clearly, the plans for An Post are six months earlier than that in terms of the potential downgrading of post offices.

On the current state of the company, I shared the annoyance and astonishment of some of the other members of this committee when we received the figures for 2003 considering the figures projected to us in January 2003, but that has been stated already. In terms of the projected figures for 2005, the representatives said they hope the company will be breaking even at that stage, which would be a phenomenal achievement on the figures projected. Is the break even figure a bottom line figure? In other words, is it made up of trading losses plus the sale of assets or is it a break even figure in terms of trading? I assume that at some stage An Post will run out of assets to sell to try to cover up or reduce trading losses, which has been the case this year and will be the case next year. I am subject to correction but An Post appears to be projecting a sale of assets of about €14 million for next year to reduce a projected trading loss of €30.6 million to approximately €16 million.

One of the disappointments in respect of the presentation is that even though we have a reasonable amount of detail on the strategic plan, we have no detail as regards the reason the company has been in its current state for the past year. I would like to hear much more detail from the financial director at this meeting, if he has the figures at his disposal, on the sections of An Post which are losing money, those that are breaking even and the sections, if any, which are making money with regard to subsidiaries, partners, international interests and acquisitions An Post has made, presumably to get a return on investment. Has it got that return on investment? I would also like more detail on SDS, mail delivery and so on. We can then make an educated assessment as to whether the strategic plan makes sense in the areas the company is targeting for cutbacks, but we have no figures in that regard. We are going on what we are being told, that the strategic plan is targeting the right areas that are supposedly loss making.

On staffing, despite the fact that the strategic plan clearly states that staffing numbers need to be reduced, the staffing numbers in An Post headquarters have increased by 10% since 2002. I am open to correction on that if I am wrong. Is it also the case that despite spending €100 million on automated sorting offices in Athlone, Portlaoise and Little Island in Cork, which I have visited, An Post has 200 more sorting staff now than it had in 1998 and, if so, how can it be explained?

On the price of stamps, reference was made in the presentation to An Post being in a position in the middle of this year to make a case for increased prices. What level of increase does An Post anticipate it will seek from the regulator and the Government?

Perhaps Mr. Curtin could answer those questions and the Deputy will have an opportunity to come back in later.

Mr. Curtin, I am sorry we are banking so many questions. I hope you are familiar with the procedure here. Before you answer Deputy Coveney's questions, did you have an opportunity to read the transcript of 29 January last year presented to this committee?

Mr. Curtin

I read the transcript, Chairman, but——

That is fine. I just wanted to have that on the record. You did read it?

Mr. Curtin:—

perhaps not fully given the extent of what I have had to read with regard to the proceedings.

This is an Oireachtas transcript of a meeting presented here by the management of the company of which you are now chief executive. Did you have an opportunity to read it?

Mr. Curtin

Yes, indeed.

We will proceed now with the answers to Deputy Coveney's questions. You can refer to what I take it is your new management team.

Mr. Curtin

Yes, and if I have difficulty with any degree of detail, I will refer to my management team. However, the questions I can deal with, I will answer.

With regard to the strategic plan and the issue of detailed discussions, I can confirm to the Deputy that there have been detailed discussions with the CWU on the implications of change programmes from the period November through to the week before Christmas. With regard to the comment on the Clonakilty post office, the timeframe I was referring to concerned the major change programme which is primarily within the area of the postal business as distinct from the post office business. The plan is predicated against an implementation of that programme from the middle of 2004. The post office rationalisation programme is already successfully under way. My understanding is that the Clonakilty issue will be initiated in the last quarter of this year and on that I will refer to Tony Waters, who is director of post office operations. Is that correct?

Mr. Tony Waters

That is correct, the last quarter of 2004. In that type of period.

It is not just Clonakilty. That just happens to be a case study on——

Mr. Waters can give us an overview later on his policy in respect of the whole post office structure, where it fits into the organisation, the importance of it and so on.

Mr. Curtin

With regard to the comment on the financial figures, I can confirm that the 2005 target is break even and that is a break even operational figure. I concur that this is a very difficult task to achieve, but the company has no alternative other than to set itself that particular target. That is not a break even figure which is clouded by the sale of any asset. It is a break even on operational income versus operational cost. I agree there should not be any doubt about these targets.

I understand the next issue concerned running out of assets. I agree that no company could survive even in the short term from the current practice of the sale of surplus assets. There is an absolute limit to the surplus of those assets and that is the reason the company operationally has to target breaking even by 2005. The two primary assets of An Post are the workforce, which is the human asset of the company, and the 5,000 locations through which we operate our business. There is only a limited number of surplus assets we can dispose of without eroding the substantive basis of this company.

To clarify Deputy Coveney's question, is it the policy of the company to sell assets to supplement the operational side of the company——

In the short term.

——in the short term as opposed to selling surplus assets which could be used for capital investment in some of the new business ventures we are talking about but which you have not specified? Is it the policy of your company to do that rather than solve the problem of which you are aware?

Mr. Curtin

The policy of the company is to dispose of surplus assets only. I have clarified the point that there is quite a limited portfolio of those assets before one would cut into the fundamental capital base of the company. As a business person, I would have no interest in doing that. I do not believe that is good business practice and there is no reason I would be involved in such a practice. There are surplus assets and we are currently selling surplus assets, effectively to fund a restructuring programme. We are carrying additional costs. We are in the process of attempting to negotiate those costs out of the system but in the meantime they must be financed and it is not unreasonable to use surplus assets from that perspective. It is short-term, however, and from my perspective it is funding the means to negotiate the surplus activities out of the business.

Perhaps I am missing something here. Are you selling surplus assets to fund the day to day operations of the company? I am not talking about severance or redundancy. Are you selling surplus assets, which are bricks and mortar, to fund the day to day operation of the company when it should be breaking even or making a profit?

Mr. Curtin

There is no doubt, Chairman, that we did that in the latter half of 2003. We sold property to pay the day to day expenses of the company.

From the projected figures given to us today, unfortunately, that policy looks set to continue into 2004 to try to reduce an operational loss of €30 million to €16 million. The company is planning to sell surplus assets from An Post roughly valued at €14 million next year almost as a damage limitation exercise as it moves towards trying to break even in 2005. Is that the blunt assessment?

Mr. Curtin

That is not completely true in that, as I already indicated, the 2004 plan includes the proposition that we will have negotiated the change agreements and they will be implemented from the middle of 2004. There are, by their very nature, additional costs inherent in that and the sale of the surplus assets will cover the cost of that programme but I agree there is an absolute limit to this policy. That is why our intent is to operationally break even in 2005.

This is amazing information we are getting today. Have you used up the €150 million in cash from the sale of IOL? Is that all gone?

Mr. Curtin

The cash received from the assets sales——

Almost €150 million. Was that the figure?

Mr. Curtin

The cash received from the——

Is that all gone? You have no surplus cash whatsoever. It is all spent.

Mr. Curtin

Not at all.

You sold IOL, which is the electronic service provider and is now one of your competitors, and you have used up all the cash for the modernisation and capital programme.

Mr. Curtin

Chairman, I am the chief executive since the middle of July——

We accept that.

Mr. Curtin

——and the cash is not there.

There is no cash?

Mr. Curtin

No. Indeed, the company has been on overdraft for the first time in its history for the last six weeks of 2003. In order that Deputies fully understand the financial position of the company——

Mr. Curtin, several of these officials were before us last Januarywhen we discussed the same issue. Where is the accountability in all of this?

Mr. Curtin

Clearly the accountability is with me. I am the chief executive and I now take responsibility for the performance of An Post. The reality is that the cash is not there. The other reality is that to pay wages, as the Chairman has correctly indicated, I have had to sell property. I have also had to get an overdraft in the four weeks in December to pay wages. That is the financial position of An Post. What we have is a clear strategy and plan to remove the company from that situation and at this time my emphasis, and that of my management team and the board of An Post, is to move the company out of that financial position, and it can be done.

Deputy Coveney, did you get the answers to your questions?

I have many more questions to ask but will Mr. Curtin clarify a number of issues on the employee share option scheme? First, who makes the decision on it? Second, has An Post got a letter from the Department asking it to change tack in that area, and what are the implications of that? Third, how much would the ESOP cost the company if it were introduced?

Mr. Curtin

With regard to the ESOP, my understanding is that all of the parties to this position, be they shareholders, the board, management or unions, accept that the ESOP is part of the restructuring process within An Post. I have personal experience of it elsewhere. I believe it is a sensible way to proceed where significant change is necessary within a company.

With regard to the An Post ESOP, it came about as part of a transformation agreement. In that context, the company indicated a degree of savings to the shareholder. I will ask Mr. Donald to outline the individual responsibilities later but in that context the company indicated in May to the shareholder that certain savings had been made in a letter to the board from the shareholder in late December. The board has been asked to confirm those savings. That item is on the agenda for the January board meeting and it would be difficult for me to comment on that aspect until the board had considered the issue. With regard to the ESOP and the responsibilities, perhaps Mr. Donald would comment on that.

Mr. Larry Donald

It is clear, as the Deputy is aware, that a number of ESOPs have been put into operation in various State companies and so on and, fundamentally, they have involved a process of change of one kind or another. There is no question that they have been part of an overall change programme. Clearly, there are a number of parties to the whole process. Obviously the shareholder is the key player in terms of owning the company and in the case of An Post, An Post reports directly to the Minister and the Government. Nevertheless, as the chief executive has pointed out, the particular ESOP arrangement transpired in 2000 in the context of a particular transformation agreement and the execution of the whole ESOP arrangement was contingent on the implementation of certain changes, the achievement of certain savings and so on. As the chief executive said, there has been some correspondence on this and obviously the execution of the ESOP is a matter about which all of the parties to the arrangement have to be satisfied.

Clearly, there are issues which have to be resolved at this point. The Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources has sought clarification on the scale of the savings that have been achieved and that matter has to be clarified. Specifically, the clarification has been sought in the context of the changing financial position of the company. In other words, the figures were submitted earlier in the year and obviously the projection in terms of the financial position of An Post has changed over the period of time. The Department has sought confirmation of the figures in the light of that particular context. That matter is being examined. As the chief executive said, it will be examined by the board this month and the company will have to respond to the Department on the matter.

We may have to direct the questions on the ESOP to the Minister when he appears before us.

They are central to the negotiations between union and management in An Post. That is only reason I raised it. I do not want to labour the point because we have other items to cover but——

There are different players in this, with the corporate structure of the board and so on. I want to get back to the question of the board shortly.

I wish Mr. Curtin well because if he does not get his act together, it will be the end of An Post as we know it in 2008. If An Post was a private company it would be wound up at this stage. I want to ask about some of the positive aspects Mr. Curtin mentioned. He said management performance bonuses have been eliminated until targets are met. I do not want him to disclose what was paid out in management performance bonuses but I would be curious to know what was paid out in 2002 when the company lost €70 million. A cynic would ask were the bonuses equated to the scale of losses. What were the productivity achievements? Perhaps Mr. Curtin might quantify what performance bonuses have cost the company and the criteria used in giving them.

Mr. Curtin also said that the management team was involved in decisions and providing the type of information we got last January which we now find is dramatically different in that all of those on that management team are gone aside, to use his words. Have they left the company? What were the numbers involved? Were golden handshakes used to get them to leave the company?

It was stated in the newspapers recently that there was a lack of enthusiasm for continuing the television licence business, which is worth approximately €12 million per year to An Post, mainly because An Post is afraid it will be seen by people in a negative context, particularly in terms of its prosecution role. In its current financial state can An Post afford to lose a revenue base of €12 million? It appears to me that the company can ill-afford that.

Mr. Curtin also said he would defend the social welfare contract. What is the social welfare contract worth annually to An Post? He also referred earlier to the type of climate in which An Post has to operate and that other countries operate under a less benign regulatory regime. Does Mr. Curtin regard the existence of the regulator and the restraints imposed on the company as an impediment to its profitability?

Is the installation of the roadside post boxes out of the way? That turned out to be white elephant for An Post because it got nothing back in terms of the expenditure on 500,000 roadside boxes. I would be interested to hear Mr. Curtin's comments, particularly with regard to management performance bonuses because it is incredible that they were being paid when the company was suffering huge losses.

Mr. Curtin, Deputy Coveney asked some questions on sorting staff which we can come back to as we move along. I apologise if you think some——

Chairman, I also asked a question.

We will come back to you as well, Deputy Brady. Mr. Curtin, you may think the members are leaving out of discourtesy but that is not the case. Some of them are members of another committee and a vote has been called in the committee sitting in the Dáil Chamber. I assure you I will be staying for the duration of the meeting.

Mr. Curtin

On the performance bonus issue, my understanding is that the historic cost of performance bonuses in An Post was of the order of €1 million. With regard to the question on the payment thereof, as chief executive and as an experienced manager I have specific experience and a specific view of when and how performance bonuses should be paid. They should be paid against discrete performance criteria established in advance by the board and the executive of the company. In that context, for each business area within the company we are setting key performance indices and all management, including myself, will be judged against performance on a quarterly and annual basis against those targets that have now been set and agreed with the board. That is the professional way forward.

Can we take it from your statement that no performance related bonuses will be paid unless the company is back in profitability?

Mr. Curtin

It is an issue that the board will consider on an individual basis. It is difficult for any company to pay bonuses when it is losing the level of cash An Post is losing. There are individuals within the company who are performing in an extraordinary way and I would maintain that individuals should continue to be incentivised to perform. While the company may not be performing, certain individuals do perform and there is a need for some balance and fairness but, overall, I concur that it is a difficult issue to pay performance bonuses when a company is losing money like An Post.

With all due respect, Mr. Curtin, if a company is about to sell the rest of the family silver, all the assets and the subsidiaries also to help pay the operational costs in the absence of this agreement to which you have referred, are you telling the committee that you have to invite the members of the board to tell you it has approved a performance bonus system for people - I presume it is just the top executives - who are presiding over a company which will, as you said, be out of business within two to three years unless it is turned around? Are you telling this committee that the shareholder's fund, which is the taxpayer, will have to stand over bonuses being paid to executives in this calendar year - we will confine it to this year - when it is estimated that the company will lose €30 million?

Mr. Curtin

I am saying there will be no bonus paid this year for last year's performance. That is the policy of the company and, to my knowledge, the board has taken no decision with regard to payment of any bonus.

Thank you, Mr. Curtin. To answer the other questions——

Was Mr. Curtin unhappy with the criteria that operated previously with regard to performance related bonuses?

Mr. Curtin

From my own perspective I repeat, and I am not being disingenuous or smart - I can only speak from my own professional experience - that as part of my function as a chief executive I will advise the board with regard to what I believe are the professional and proper criteria for the payment of bonuses, and I am in the process of doing that.

Mr. Curtin would not pay bonuses in private industry if the company was losing €70 million a year. Rather than paying bonuses I am sure heads would roll in private industry in a similar situation. It is a contradiction.

This is something I tried to refer to in my earlier comments. It would be helpful if we knew what sections of An Post were breaking even and making money and those which were not. It makes sense to reward people if they are performing well in a sector of a company even if that overall company is losing money. That is the point Mr. Curtin made earlier, which is understandable, but when we do not have the figures one can understand how the idea of giving bonuses to management in a company in the position An Post is in now is something that raises concern in the committee.

Mr. Curtin

It was one of the Deputy's questions I had intended to come back to, and I can refer to it now. With regard to current performers, the committee can appreciate that in my role I am subject to fiduciary duties and in the context of the 2003 year-end figures, there is a process and procedures that apply not only to commercial semi-State companies but all companies in terms of year end-results. That includes a process with approval by board and shareholder of year-end results. I have to talk in broad terms, therefore, with regard to 2003.

On the Deputy's comments, there are a number of businesses which are behaving adequately and there are certain parts of the business which are not behaving. The primary difficulties in An Post are in the core business of mail processing and delivery. The vast bulk of all of the losses are within that area. In addition, SDS has a well known difficulty in the marketplace with regard to price. That has now been addressed by very brave management and union activity with regard to the introduction of contracted drivers. The process is being worked through but there are still significant losses within SDS.

The post office business has been undertaking a restructuring programme, which is now starting to bear fruit. The business, while still experiencing financial difficulties, is now moving towards a break-even position. The subsidiaries overall are in profit but the profits are not as large as were budgeted for. In that context, there are elements of the business where people have worked extraordinarily hard. As the chief executive of the company, I would have to say there are some individuals who deserve to be remunerated and rewarded for their extraordinary hard work. That is my position.

Senator Finucane had other questions about the letter box issue, which I would like to defer until later.

I have no problem with that. I would like the representatives to also deal with the television licence and the social welfare segments of its business.

Mr. Curtin

I have a note of a number of points raised by the Senator, which I can answer if the Chairman wishes.

There is the television licence segment and the importance to the business of the social welfare contract.

Mr. Curtin

With regard to the television licence debt collection issue, I state clearly that the business of debt collection is, in my judgment, perhaps not appropriate to a company such as An Post in terms of its branding and its positioning. However, we are undertaking that business and doing so successfully in that we are meeting targets in respect of it. It is a difficult and complex business which we undertake for another semi-State company. The business loses money. As the chief executive of the company, when I examine a business area which is potentially damaging the business positioning of the company and from which we do not make any money, it is not an unreasonable for me to ask why we continue to do that work.

I take it the €12 million figure is wrong.

Mr. Curtin

The €12 million figure is the contribution towards the costs of that business, which are completely encapsulated in a separate business area. Whoever will operate that business will have to incur those costs.

I thought the ordinary post office would renew licences as part of its ordinary activity.

Mr. Curtin

The transaction of licences is a business, which naturally, I believe, will always be undertaken by the post office, but the comments I made specifically relate to the debt collection element of the business.

Can Mr. Curtin quantify the cost of the debt collection element?

Mr. Curtin

I will ask Mr. Waters to outline some of the figures.

Mr. Waters

The television licence element is worth approximately €11 million to An Post. It is broken up into three basic segments: one is the sale of the licence, which is straightforward, another is database management and marketing and another is debt collection. The chief executive is saying that the debt collection element is causing a problem to An Post in terms of the brand of An Post. The newspaper regularly refer to this in terms of a problem in the sense that, on the one hand, we are dealing with customers and, on the other, we are debt collecting.

Will you explain that?

Mr. Waters

We have 88 people in the licensing section, of whom approximately 45 are inspectors who visit homes in the evening, an aspect of the work that tends to give rise to a bad feeling.

What percentage of licence fees are paid over the counter?

Mr. Waters

Approximately 75%. A large percentage of fees are paid over the counter.

What is the total number of licences paid when account is taken of all segments of the organisation, including the debt collecting element?

Mr. Waters

The value of the licence fees collected amounts to €1.176 million.

What is the percentage figure? Some 75% of licence holders pay their television licence fee over the counter and there is no debt collection in respect of those fees.

Mr. Waters

Some people pay their licence after they have had a visit from an inspector. There are people who buy a licence and others who buy a licence subsequent to a visit to their premises. We carry out in the order of 300,000 visits in a year.

What is the percentage of licence fees paid? I have the figure for last year on file, which was sent to the committee.

The debt collection element could increase. If there are economic constraints and the television licence fee increases - it has been €150 in recent times - the debt collection element could intensify rather than diminish.

Mr. Waters

That is a fact. As the licence fee increases it is a more difficult bill to pay and it may involve more debt collecting.

Is Mr. Curtin seriously suggesting that even though An Post has the upside in this equation, in terms of having the business of the collection of the television licence fee and the revenue that goes with it, that it could dispose of the downside, the debt collection segment? Surely the two segments go hand in hand. If An Post has the responsibility of collecting the licence fee over the counter and it is paid to do that, it is not unreasonable to have to work with the expense or the downside of the debt collection segment. Is it possible to separate the two?

Mr. Curtin

With regard to the post office element, it is a transaction business - an area where people wish to conduct a transaction. We provide that service, for which we duly get paid. That business is marginally profitable.

I do not want to spend an hour about speaking about €12 million worth of business. An Post gets €12 million for collecting the licence fee, is that correct?

Mr. Curtin

That is correct.

You are losing money on that business?

Mr. Curtin

Yes.

You want to get rid of it. Therefore, there is a ready-made business for anyone who wants to take over the debt collection segment. You would be willing to give up the service of the selling of licence fees on behalf of the State.

Mr. Curtin

We would be happy to undertake all of the business for the State if it wishes us to do it. With regard to the debt collection element of business, I suggest it is not unreasonable for An Post to be paid a remuneration that would compensate it for that work.

That is a matter for you and the Government

Mr. Curtin

It is a loss making business.

That is a new business opportunity to explore. I ask Mr. Curtin to answer the question on the social welfare business and then I will call Senator Kenneally and Deputy Ryan.

Mr. Curtin

The social welfare business is a key and critical element of our business that sustains the post office network in Ireland. Perhaps Mr. Waters will give an indicator of the level of that income.

Mr. Waters

The income from social welfare business to An Post is approximately €50 million.

There was a furore two or three years ago over the issue that such business should be advertised in accordance with European Union Community regulations. Is that still a factor?

Mr. Waters

It is. There were two elements originally in that case. One factor has been disposed of but the other one is still a problem. It was referred only recently from the Commission to the European Court of Justice. It is a matter between the Commission and Ireland, as opposed to An Post. The Department of Social and Family Affairs is dealing with that case at this stage and a decision on it is expected in about a year's time.

I do not want to divert by discussing other areas; we are talking about the survival of the company. The €50 million you are getting from the social welfare business is a valuable contract. You are not giving that up, are you?

Mr. Waters

Absolutely not.

I welcome the representatives of An Post. I have sympathy for Mr. Curtin's position because he has been landed in the middle of this mess, one not of his making. However, I am disappointed that the company is not being a little more open with us. As an accountant, I am flabbergasted at the information that was given to us previously. We have been given no information as to why this position has come about. I presume An Post produces management accounts each month which are compared against the budget and the forecasts are amended each month. I question how we could be told in November something that was fundamentally different from what happened at the end of December. In any accounting set-up, that is simply not possible, unless there are no accounting procedures in place in An Post. This will come out in the future because the Comptroller and Auditor General will at some stage examine the 2002 accounts, when, I am sure, the representatives will be hauled before the Committee of Public Accounts. They will then have to explain the position. It would be more beneficial for the representatives if they could be more open with the committee at this stage and let us know what happened because there appears to be a cover up here.

I have one or two questions, one of which relates to a point raised by Deputy Coveney which as of yet has not been answered. He suggested an additional 200 sorting staff were recruited following the location of new super sorting centres in various parts of the country. We were told at the time that such additional staff would resolve the problems in An Post. Is it the case that not only have such additional staff not resolved its problems but they have caused many of the difficulties?

Perhaps Mr. Curtin could elaborate on the SDS owner driver model. Is that service provided by people outside the company with union agreement, or by former employees who were prepared to work on their own? Such a model has been successful in the private sector and I would like to know more about how it is operating through An Post.

There has been a clear divergence of opinion as to whether there were negotiations between An Post and the Communications Workers Union on the strategic plan. Has consultation or discussion on the plan taken place with the Postmasters' Union?

With regard to the reference the Senator made to the Comptroller and Auditor General, I suggest we forward the transcript of this meeting to the Chairman of the Committee of Public Accounts.

Does An Post come within the remit of the Committee of Public Accounts?

I think it does.

It does not. As I understand it, it is answerable to this committee. The Comptroller and Auditor General examines direct State expenditure. I was a member of the Committee of Public Accounts for approximately five years.

There used to be a committee on commercial semi-State bodies under previous Dála, to which bodies such an Post were responsible, but they are now responsible to this committee.

In that case, we will not do what I suggested. We will consider, in private session, our options as to how we will pursue the matter further in respect of accountability.

Mr. Curtin

May I make a comment on this?

Of course.

Mr. Curtin

I am inexperienced at this, but I feel I have to make a comment with regard to the assertion that I or any of my management team would be involved in a cover up. I noted those words. I categorically refute that assertion.

Why did we not get the information?

Mr. Curtin

I will be happy to answer any question anybody may ask me here, to the extent that I have the information that has been sought. If I do not have such information, I will make sure that the Chairman gets it. However, I have an absolute difficulty with somebody suggesting that I or my management team would be involved in a cover up.

Can we get a copy of the management accounts for November 2002 which the company would have prepared? I assume there were management accounts prepared for November 2002. Could we get a copy of those?

I must make it clear that Mr. Curtin is in the job only six months.

I said I had a good deal of sympathy for him because he was landed with this problem.

I made it clear that Mr. Curtin indicated that he had a new management team. We are not attributing any blame to him——

——or to the team he selected. If he recalls, I asked him was he aware that the company was going to make a profit of €1 million in 2003 and at what stage did he discover that it was going to make a loss of €47 million. For the information of members, it was indicated by Mr. Curtin during a meeting of the committee, and it is reported in the transcript of that meeting, that he discovered this in July. When did Mr. Curtin join the company?

Mr. Curtin

In mid-July.

Nobody here is casting any aspersions on your integrity or character.

Mr. Donald

Nevertheless, I reiterate the comments made by the chief executive. I think grave offence will be taken by the people sitting here at a suggestion that they are engaged in some kind of a cover up. Those words were used. I will outline some of the detail on this matter. Donal Curtin became chief executive in mid-July. I joined him in the company in early August. By September the factual, up to date financial position of An Post would have been set out, not in any secretive fashion, but publicly for the Department. In addition, there would have been full engagement and discussion with all the trade unions and all the staff in the company. All the figures would have been disclosed in detail. Furthermore, the media would have been called in and given a detailed briefing. The fact of the matter is that those figures would have been set out in detail.

Do you understand the concern of the committee that certain information was given to it in January last year which was not factually correct, even though the information that was given, which I read into the record and can read again, was in respect of the period up to the end of November 2002? Can you understand the concern of the members of this committee that Mr. Curtin informed the committee that when he joined the company in July last year he was of the view, from the financial information he was given at that stage - correct me if I am wrong - that the company was on target to make a profit of €1 million in 2003, but subsequently he discovered in July 2003 that the company was on target to make a loss of €47 million for the year? Can you understand the concern of committee——

Mr. Donald

I absolutely understand it.

——as Members of the Oireachtas and representatives of the people of this country who own the company?

Mr. Donald

I understand that concern perfectly well. That concern and issues arising from it would have also been a matter of some significance in our interactions with the Minister and the Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources.

This was subsequent to that. What Senator Kenneally said, if I am correct in understanding him, was that somebody in the company, I take it somebody on the outgoing financial management side of the company - I do not know who it was because I asked about this asked: were financial reports submitted to the executive management of the company, including the CEO, from month to month, and then to the board on a month to month basis. Did that financial information contain gross inaccuracies which showed the company on target to make a profit of €1 million for 2003 when in fact Mr. Curtin discovered that the company was going to make a loss of €47 million in July 2003, which was seven months into the financial year? I call Mr. Curtin.

Mr. Curtin

I have made the comment and it is on the record of the board——

Of the board.

Mr. Curtin

——yes, of the board - that I believe that the company was not well served by the quantity and the quality of management information that was received. That management information included a degree of optimism that was not justified by the figures that were there. That is how I have described it to the board of the company. I am being as open as I can on this issue.

I have difficulty with the information supplied to us here and subsequently supplied to the board every month. I have been in business for 19 years and it certainly does not——

Can I make a comment?

No, I call Deputy Eamon Ryan——

It is important that we make the point that the directors of a semi-State body are appointed by the Government and directors have responsibilities, as the Chairman said. I am a director of a company, as is the Chairman. The first responsibility of directors is to ensure that they get the right financial information. There are obligations on boards of directors. It has been clearly shown that the Minister, Deputy Dermot Ahern, seems have been asleep on his watch in this area and in recent months he seems to have created a situation where--——

I do not want the Deputy to embark on political comments.

——boards of directors on semi-State bodies are being re-educated.

With respect, if we are seen to argue about ourselves here, politically, the importance of——

It is not political.

It is political.

The committee may well——

This is like Hamlet without the prince. Where are the representatives of the workforce? They are not present.

They were invited. If the Deputy was here earlier he would have known that.

I call Deputy Eamon Ryan.

Specifically, on Deputy Broughan's point, there is the question of what the board of directors was doing at this time. We hear there have been widespread changes in the board of management. Have there been similar changes in the board of directors as a result of what has happened in the past two years?

With respect, that is a fair question but it might be an unfair one for the CEO to answer. We all know the procedures here and I have tried to chair this committee impartially for the past 12 months. In the case of a matter of policy, we will invite the Minister to respond to us.

I take that point.

If the board needs to be called in, we will call in its members, in the event that we need to proceed further on this matter. I do not think that is a fair question to put to the management of the company.

I withdraw the question. The chief executive advises us that the company was not served by the quality of management information provided by the former management team. Whatever about bonus payments and the like, which we discussed earlier, was there a severance package deal for those members of management who left recently when the poor quality of information provided was discovered? If so, what was the level of such a severance package? This is a controversial area in terms of corporate governance. We noted recently where a company was steered into unprofitable waters and the management exited with a profitable severance package. Has a severance package been paid in this case?

On a more general question looking forward, Mr. Curtin's forecast for 2004 is for approximately a 5% increase in sales turnover, from €645 million to €675 million, on the back of stagnant growth in sales in the past year and, when account is taken of inflation, a decrease in sales. What is the basis for his optimism that the company will increase sales, given the increase in electronic mail and so on? Is that largely based on a price increase he expects from the regulator or the Minister, or does he envisage there will be real growth in the business? Despite all the cost cutting measures that will be put in place, Mr. Curtin still forecasts an increase in pay and pensions in the next year. Is that mainly due to the cost of such a redundancy scheme? My primary question is where does Mr. Curtin believe sales will increase if the company is going to cutback on selling subsidiaries on a such a widespread basis? How can he expect them to increase?

On a more optimistic note as to what the future may hold, while An Post has a sub-office in every town and possibly village in the country, it is now considering closing post offices. I would be interested to hear Mr. Curtin's reaction to the phenomenon I have noticed in the past four or five years that there is hardly a town or city area which does not have a new Internet cafe opening, a new communications office. This committee is working on the area of broadband and recognises its vast potential. Mr. Curtin said that the company's main asset is its current delivery system. I would have thought that its offices, which are communications centres - its area of business - are its major asset. Rather than closing and retrenching, does Mr. Curtin not recognise there is a business opportunity in using these centres, be it as Internet centres, electronic centers, mail centres, social service centres or transaction centres? His company is retracting and closing offices when a communications office is opening next door to such offices in almost every high street. Why has the company missed out on that revolution?

Mr. Curtin

With regard to a severance package, the Deputy may need to check the record because I chose my words carefully. I said that the management involved was not active in the business. I was referring specifically to the fact that the finance director at the time was on sick leave from the company since last September. As the Deputy can appreciate, it would be difficult for me to comment any further than that.

I take Mr. Curtin's point on that. The 2002 annual report of the company contains a photograph line-up of nine members of the management and corporate commission team, few enough of whom are with us here. Is the financial director or financial controller the only person we are talking about or were there other changes in management over the past year as a result of general changes in the company?

Mr. Curtin

There have been a number of re-assignments within the company and a number of people have also chosen to pursue careers elsewhere and have left the company following their own decision.

I take it there was not severance packages in such cases.

Mr. Curtin

There is the normal treatment of a person who leaves within contract.

I expect your auditors to put a note in the company's accounts for 2003 with regard to any difficulties the company may have had or forecast. Do you expect any difficulties to be raised by the company's auditors?

Mr. Curtin

I am not an accountant, but my initial reaction is that no, I do not expect any to arise, but I will ask the acting finance director to comment on that issue.

Mr. McGivern

No, I would not expect the auditors to comment in their audit report, in any negative way, on the results of the company because the results on which the auditors will comment will be those to be presented to them, which will be the results we have set out here today.

That is the on management's forecast.

Mr. McGivern

Correct.

Mr. Curtin might deal with the other question raised by Deputy Eamon Ryan which deals with an area in which we are very interested.

I asked about the sales growth and about the company having missed out on the electronic revolution.

Mr. Curtin

The sales increase will come from a number of areas. We are not including any further price rises within the 2004 projection, but it reflects a series of price rises we have been granted in terms of tariff and in terms of business decisions we have taken on a series of products that are not in the regulated environment. That projection is reflective of those price increases. It is also reflective of the continuing success of the post office business, which leads me on to the other part of the Deputy's question. We have seen significant growth in the usage of the services we provide, either through our post offices, agencies or our post point networks. While the number of post offices may change, the reality is that the new organisations and systems that are being put in place by the post office are attracting increasing usage, particularly within rural Ireland.

I take the other point the Deputy made - a matter to which I referred earlier - that traditionally An Post has been the communicator between State bodies and the people of this country. There is an issue with regard to the roll-out of broadband and other modern communications systems in rural locations. The company is currently commercially examining those issues with a view to undertaking further business in this area. Our extensive property portfolio and retail presence in non-major urban centres in rural Ireland is a business opportunity, in respect of which I will the seek the approval of the management of An Post to investigate and to take advantage for the sake of the company and the broader community.

On that specific point, which is of interest to the committee's other work at present, has Mr. Curtin examined how he could provide a general broadband service throughout his network?

Mr. Curtin

That is an unlikely development. I have been involved in this business. I was the chairman of Ocean Communications and was involved in it at the time of the provision of some of the original broadband networks, such as the western digital corridor. Therefore, I have some background in this area. I do not think that An Post is particularly suitable to the provision of infrastructure, but it may have capabilities to use such infrastructure and to extend its services to a broader community. We are in discussions in that regard and, from a commercial perspective, all I can say is that discussions are ongoing. I hope that there will be positive results, but I could not be definitive on that.

Mr. Curtin can be sure that the committee, wearing its other hat of ICT, welcomes that. I call Deputy Keogh.

I did not get answers to my questions on the Postmasters' Union, the sorting centres and owner drivers.

Mr. Curtin might reply to those three questions and I will then call Deputies, Keogh, Brady and Broughan. Is Deputy Broughan happy with that? Has he his questions ready?

Mr. Curtin

I clarify that the owner drivers virtually all come from within the workforce. Like the Senator, I have previous business experience of operating in this environment. This is a sensible solution reached between management and unions to sort out some issues. This is an area I will support within An Post. As management, we have an added obligation to ensure that the owner driver model is successful. I assure members that the management of An Post will make every effort to ensure that this is the case. It could well be a model for future change within the company and I will support it.

I have been involved in extensive discussions with the CWU and the IPU. I met representatives of the IPU on four occasions since I took office. I will continue the practice of communicating with all the players within the business because there are some serious issues which must be tackled quickly. The only way to do so is to discuss them and hammer out agreements in respect of them.

Senator Kenneally and I asked about the sorting offices earlier. An answer must be provided to our questions.

Mr. Curtin

There is a general issue regarding numbers. The numbers in An Post increased following the inclusion of automation because we are, to a degree, operating concurrent systems. We have replaced a manual system with an automated system and initially it was prudent to put the former in place while retaining the latter. Having proven that the system works, it is incumbent on all players to rationalise the business and run it with one system. The latter is included the negotiations that are taking place at present.

Was an agreement in place with the staff and unions prior to the implementation of the new automated system? Were staff paid in respect of that agreement? Is it the case that the agreement is not being implemented by management or honoured by the unions?

Mr. Curtin

The agreement that was in place has been substantially honoured. I understand that there are elements of it which must still be honoured and I will ask Ken to comment on that issue, which is ongoing. I am confident that the agreement will be honoured and it is sensible that we would implement it. There are other elements that have not yet been negotiated. These have been put on the table and discussions have taken place.

Members are not professionally involved in this area of business. Deputy Coveney and Senator Kenneally are concerned that there are approximately 200 more people sorting mail manually. Do I take it that they are not involved with the automated system? Are such individuals expected to transfer to other jobs?

Mr. Curtin

The automated system is now substantially in place. There are a number of locations where post is still sorted manually. However, the equipment put in place can now do this. There are existing agreements which allow for those centres to alter their practices. This matter is the subject of ongoing discussions with the unions concerned.

Have agreements been signed up to and paid for? When An Post decided to change from a manual to an automated system and reached agreement with the unions, were staff paid to facilitate the changeover and did the company honour its side of the commitment?

Mr. Curtin

There have been agreements which allowed the introduction of automation.

Was there a monetary consideration for staff in respect of those agreements?

Mr. Curtin

There has been a monetary consideration for allowing the introduction of automation.

Have staff members been received that monetary consideration?

Mr. Curtin

I understand that that the amounts of cash that were due have been paid.

Are the staff who received their money operating the new automated system?

Mr. Curtin

The automated equipment is being operated. However, as indicated earlier, it is not being fully utilised because there are still a number of locations where manual sorting remains in place. We are involved in discussions aimed at progressing that issue.

I am aware that Mr. Curtin is involved in difficult discussions. However, have those who continue to operate the manual system been paid to transfer to the automated system?

Mr. Curtin

It is not the intent that the bulk of those people would gravitate to the new system. We have taken on and trained additional staff to operate the automated equipment. It is possible that some people who will be displaced will be asked to go to those automated plants. These individuals may also be asked to undertake other duties which, perhaps, are at present being performed by casual workers or through overtime. It would be my intention that surplus staff should be employed effectively. This will have to be done through a process of discussion and agreement with the unions.

Is it correct that there are 200 more sorting staff employed by the company than was the case in 1998? The company has invested approximately $100 million in new sorting offices in Athlone, Portlaoise and Cork. When these are fully operational, I presume there will be a significant reduction in the number of sorting staff. Is that correct? What is envisaged as the likely number of sorting staff that will be employed by An Post when the new sorting offices are fully operational? Will a significant number of sorting staff make up the 1,300 to be let go by the company or will people be transferred from the manual to the automated system? I presume the idea behind the introduction of automated sorting is that not as many staff would be required and there would, therefore, be a cost saving. There has not been such a saving, however, and costs have actually risen, both in terms of massive capital expenditure and increases in staff numbers.

It is anticipated that the company will break even by 2005, when we will see the benefits of the automated system, from the point of view of reductions in staffing numbers and that of efficiency. There are only 12 months in which the company can reach its target of breaking even. We must recognise that 200 people is a substantial number.

Is it correct that as the automated centres come on-line there will be major staffing implications for other sorting offices throughout the country? Will the number of staff at such locations decline significantly?

Is the company still recruiting? Last summer or early in the autumn, recruitment to An Post appeared to be ongoing in respect of, I presume, those who deliver post and sorting staff. Is it the case that at Christmas, sorting staff at particular depots were merely sitting around while post was sent to Ballyfermot or Athlone for sorting? Does that situation continue to obtain?

Does Deputy Kehoe's question relate to that matter or to a different one?

No, it does not relate to this matter.

Is it not correct that An Post took on approximately 800 temporary staff in order to ensure that what happened at Christmas 2002, namely, that cards and letters were delivered after 25 December, would not recur? Is it not also correct that the concept of automation usually involves a reduction in staff numbers? Am I correct in stating that the company has recruited 200 additional staff, on the number it had in 1998, since it began the process of automation? Is that not a contradiction in terms?

Mr. Curtin

Perhaps I could describe how I believe the issue evolved. As the incoming chief executive, I was also curious to understand what happened. The issue, primarily, was built around the concept that full automation of mail processing would be more efficient and more cost-effective than the existing manual system. To put the new system in place, a significant upgrading of the Dublin mail centre was required and the construction of, in essence, three new mail centres was begun. To ensure the continuation of service, the existing manual systems were left in place as the new mail centres were developed and staffed. These centres were staffed in addition to the existing centres. In my opinion, 200 is a small number. There may have been far more people employed by the company. I understand that during the past three years there has been an increase of over 1,000 in the number of people employed by An Post.

I made a guesstimate of the actual number.

Mr. Curtin

In the overall company, the increase during the past three years has been of the order of 1,000 staff. I refer to the years 1999 to 2001, inclusive. I use the term "of the order of" and I hope members will not hold me responsible for the accuracy of the estimate.

If Mr. Curtin is not sure about the accuracy of information he is providing or if he makes any mistakes, he can rectify matters by way of making supplementary presentations to the committee in writing.

Mr. Curtin

If I do it, it is out of absolute knowledge of the business because I have only been in office a short time.

We understand that.

Mr. Curtin

The issue of Christmas 2002 was raised. The equipment was in place at that time but was not functioning properly. As a result, there were significant and unacceptable delays in the delivery of mail. I came on the scene in July 2003 and, with the management team, I discussed the issue with the Department and the board. Everyone agreed that a repeat of what happened in 2002 would be unacceptable. As we know, there was no recurrence of the difficulties this Christmas and mail was delivered on time and without any significant increase in cost on the previous year. We incurred, in approximate terms, an increased cost of €100,000. There was, therefore, no increase in cost to deliver mail. However, there was a significant change in the way we undertook the processing of mail.

Additional casual staff, as is traditional, were recruited at Christmas but there was no great increase in the number of such staff. They were employed in different locations and the result for the company and its customers was positive because mail was delivered on time.

We are now in a position that we know the equipment is functioning and can deliver the service. There are staff undertaking manual sorting and they do not need to do so anymore. It has always been the intention of the company - we want to discuss this matter with the unions - that these individuals will be redeployed at some locations. There are temporary staff employed at some locations and it would be sensible that the surplus manual sorting staff be used to replace these people. Overtime is in place at a number of locations. It would be sensible that the surplus staff be used to remove the need for such overtime, which would lead to a cost reduction for the company. These, in broad terms, are the details of how we intend to use the equipment. We intend to use it wisely and sensibly to obtain a cost advantage for the company and a return on the investment that was made.

I welcome the representatives of An Post and I wish them all the best in the coming years. As other Members stated, they face a major uphill battle.

Mr. Curtin stated that the company measures and monitors its performance. How will he, as chief executive, measure the performance of his management team? Will the Minister be made fully aware of how this will be achieved in the next number of years?

Mr. Curtin also referred to the fact that An Post had been obliged to utilise its overdraft facility. Will the financial director comment on the type of arrangement entered into, how long it will last and what the company has promised the banks? This is the first occasion on which an overdraft arrangement has had to be entered into and I am anxious to find out more about it. I was surprised that the company was obliged to avail of this facility.

Some years ago An Post began offering AIB banking facilities in rural post offices, which was a forward-thinking move. However, it has fallen on its face because it has failed spectacularly to introduce any further forward-thinking initiatives. There were many other projects in which An Post could have become involved in order to attract more revenue.

What are the chief executive's plans in respect of rural post offices? In my view, such post offices are needed throughout the country. A couple of years ago there was a threat that the post office in my parish, Ballyhogue, would be closed down. Thankfully, however, it was saved. I do not want to see rural post offices being closed down. I have been contacted by people who run some of the rural post offices regarding their being automated. I may not be using the correct word, but are there plans to automate post offices?

In what state is Mr. Curtin's working relationship with the CWU? Is it good or hostile? Perhaps he could comment in that regard. How often does he meet representatives of the union? What type of working relationship does his management team have with the CWU?

I realise that some of the information requested might be of a sensitive commercial nature. The committee would accept the provision of a broad view as opposed to anything specific.

Mr. Curtin

With regard to measuring and monitoring performance, I will be presenting to the board a range of key performance indices at its meeting at the end of January. These will be used to monitor the performance of the management team, including me. The Department is aware of them. We meet representatives of the Department on a monthly basis for the exchange of views and information. It will be kept aware, also on a monthly basis, of our performance against the key performance indicators we agree. I will now ask Mr. McGivern to comment on the overdraft facility.

Mr. McGivern

The position regarding the overdraft is that the company has had banking facilities in place for a number of years and did not need to change them in order to accommodate the overdraft position. As a result, additional banking facilities did not have to be put in place. The company is still forecasting that the year ending 2003 will show a cash-positive position.

How does the facility work?

Mr. McGivern

It is a rolling arrangement. We do not have to put in place any measures to meet overdrawn amounts provided they do not exceed the facility amount.

Deputy Kehoe also inquired about automation of rural post offices. I think the company is going to try to augment that process within the post office system.

That is in respect of sorting.

No, we are discussing post office automation. Mr. Curtin referred to seeking new business and was pleased with what Deputy Ryan stated in respect of a number of proposals.

Mr. Curtin

It might be more appropriate for the CWU to comment on what is my relationship with it. Union relationships are part of the management process. Any manager who is experienced in semi-State activities knows that it is part of the business. Good working relationships are part of any business and my team and I, like the unions, will make every effort to maintain such relationships. That does not necessarily mean that we will always agree with each other because we have specific jobs to do. We are professionals and we will attempt to do our work in a sensible, logical and reasonable manner. Everyone realises that, at this point, the company's future is the key issue. We must get about doing our business. From that perspective, there is a working relationship between the company's management and the CWU. Perhaps Tony Waters will comment on the issue of rural post offices.

Mr. Waters

Almost 1,000 offices have been automated and approximately 95% of our business is done through these. It is difficult, in such circumstances, to justify, in terms of cost, an increase in the number of automated offices. It is expensive to manage an automated network. Approximately one year ago, we carried out a trial at Redcastle, County Donegal, to see what would be the effect of automation on a small office. The fact is that the business was not really changed at all because unless there is a sizeable population living in an area, business will not be generated by simply automating the process. We are in a situation where it is necessary to curb our costs. It is difficult to make the cost justification for further automation at this stage. That is the problem.

It is not the company's policy to close rural post offices. People inevitably retire or an office will go into decline for other reasons. However, An Post is closing post offices by surreptitious means. When a sub-post office is downgraded to being run on an agency basis, in many cases the company's communication with the office and funding for pensions, etc., is through a bank account. The post office must, therefore, have access to the necessary bank. I have spoken to people whose post offices went out of operation and been informed that it is no longer economically viable to sustain them on an agency basis in small villages. The company may not be closing them deliberately but it is happening surreptitiously on foot of economic reasons.

Mr. Waters

The Senator is partly right.

I am totally right. I can provide four examples in County Limerick.

Mr. Waters

It was at the beginning but we have moved on since then. In smaller offices we now provide the option for people to bring their vouchers to their nearest automated office. The bank is, therefore, removed from the chain. That system seems to have been operating reasonably well.

I want to bring in Deputy Broughan at this stage and I will then ask Mr. Curtin to provide an overview on the issue of letterboxes. We will than take an overview on the post office network from Mr. Waters.

Will Mr. Curtin indicate whether there are too many constraints here?

The company introduced its AIB service a couple of years ago. Has it given consideration to similar initiatives in the interim or will it do so in the future?

Mr. Waters can comment on that matter in his overview of the importance of the——

Mr. Curtin

There is an important strategic issue on which I wish to comment. I stated on a number of occasions that there is a perceived problem in respect of post offices. While there are business difficulties which we would not want to underestimate, we are confident that real business opportunities exist regarding the footfall within the post office business. It is our intention, as already stated in respect of broadband, to examine a series of options. We hope to improve and increase the level of business in this area during the next 18 months.

We will return to the footfall issue because it conflicts with the company's policy of selling high street premises.

I apologise for being late but I was obliged to attend another meeting. I welcome the An Post management team and I wish its members well in the difficult task they face in the coming years in an industry in which, technologically, there is an aspect of decline with which they must try to cope.

I regret that representatives of the Communications Workers' Union are not present today. I understand that the Chairman is to read a letter from the union into the record.

Did Deputy Broughan not receive a copy of the letter yesterday from the Clerk to the Committee?

No, I only received it earlier today. This meeting is like Hamlet without the prince because it would be extremely useful to obtain the view of the CWU in respect of the issues raised today. Perhaps representatives of the union might be invited to attend a future meeting, either one specifically relating to An Post or to the area of telecommunications, in which the Communications Workers’ Union is involved, during this session.

For the record, the Deputy is aware that we agreed our programme for the next quarter in December. We gave the union an opportunity to make a presentation today and it wrote to us to explain why it would not be doing so. However, I agree that we will have to have discussions with the union at some point in the future.

It would be important that we do so. I wish to pose a number of questions. Colleagues may have already asked some of them so I apologise in advance.

What is the position regarding the transformation agreement? An Post's presentation is somewhat circumspect in that there is clearly a process of difficult negotiations in train in respect of the change to which Mr. Curtin, who spoke about the company being on a knife edge, constantly refers. Where is the postal Bill? I accept that this is the responsibility of the Minister, Deputy Dermot Ahern, who has a major responsibility in this area and who is another missing ingredient from today's proceedings. What is the position regarding the ESOP? Was it not to be the case that the latter would be presented in respect of a process of necessary change for the industry and for An Post?

Those questions were already answered.

Deputy Broughan was at another meeting and I explained that to our guests. The committee agreed who it would invite here today and nobody raised the question of the Minister being present. The Deputy referred to the "missing ingredient" but we did not invite the Minister, anybody from the Department or the board of An Post to attend; we decided, as a committee, to invite the chief executive and his staff to answer questions. I agree that it might be necessary for the committee to consider what has been said at these proceedings and to decide on the next step to take. The latter will be done in private session. It is important to state that for the record.

As regards the record, the Minister has indicated in recent months that he is hopping mad with various semi-State bodies.

Members of the committee have managed very well to remain gelled together for the past 12 months and——

My second question relates to the Reims agreement. We discussed this matter with Mr. Curtin's predecessor last year. What is the position regarding this agreement? A presentation was made to the committee during the past 12 months from a private firm in the communications area which appeared to strongly argue that a huge chunk of An Post's problems in respect of international mail relate to Reims or Reims ll. Does a problem still exist in this area and can it be resolved? Recent articles in The Irish Times referred to some of our constituents who received presents by post from the United States who discovered that they were obliged to pay major charges because a private company operates the service on the American end, while An Post, at this end, no longer has responsibility for it. Is that the case?

My third question relates to deregulation. The UK appears to have a completely liberalised market. It has PostCom, its own regulator, and Oftel. Deutsche Post and other companies are involved in this market and I am wondering if An Post will also become involved. The postal market in the UK appears to have become quite adventurous in nature. What is the future for Ireland and An Post in this area, particularly in light of EU directives, etc.?

Other members may already have inquired about ComReg and ComReg targets. An Post appears to be significantly off the mark in regard to the 94% day-after target. What is the position in that regard and regarding the company's relationship with ComReg?

Mr. Curtin referred to the number of corporate management staff who will take voluntary redundancy this year and next. This involves a small number of staff, given that 1,400 postal workers may lose their jobs.

Mr. Curtin

Broadly, and based on our experience in An Post and elsewhere, I and the management believe the ESOP is and will be part of the solution to issues as they emerge in the company. That is an emergency situation. An Post will build as required to exercise an ESOP but issues will also need to be addressed on behalf of shareholders rather than the management of the company. With regard to the REIMS agreement, the financial issues for An Post are primarily in the core processing, delivering area and SDS.

How much was lost by SDS last year?

Mr. Curtin

It will be in excess of €10 million for 2003. I need to give as accurate information as possible but I must be conscious that I have not presented the year end accounts to the board or the shareholders. These issues are being finalised. That is a conservative figure but it indicates the extent of the gravity of the situation in SDS.

While losses have been incurred on the international mail service, they are being addressed in a number of ways through increases on international outbound mail, which will help to rectify some of the losses. Those increases were put in place on 5 January. The other issues are being washed out of the system through the implementation of the REIMS agreement. The agreement was not good for An Post. When negotiations take place again, the management team should take a different attitude, but we are a small player in a big pool. How much we can effect change remains to be seen. The issues are washing out and we expect by 2005-06 there will not be a net cost to the Irish customer for the international postage issue. It was a problem but it is being worked out of the system.

The bulk of parcels from the United States do not come through An Post's system. I have the same information as the Deputy and I read the newspapers. There are delivery problems but that is not a problem for An Post. It does a good job delivering parcels. If people want the quality of service the company offers in parcel delivery, then perhaps they should use An Post.

One cannot use An Post or its sister organisation in the United States. Is that correct?

Mr. Curtin

The Deputy has moved on to the next issue, which is the impact of deregulation. I am a professional manager and I deal with the situations that emerge. A series of deregulation agreements have been agreed at governmental level and they are being implemented throughout Europe. I will not comment on them but I will reflect on how they impact on the company. Sectors of the business are open to competition and so be it. We provide a good parcel delivery service and we would like people to use it more. They will not have the same problems with our service and they should use our service rather than alternative ones. I cannot comment on the problems others are having as that is their business.

The SDS service is excellent. My company has used it since it was introduced. We use other couriers but it is a good service and I cannot understand why An Post has difficulties. I hope the company can work them out.

Mr. Curtin

I thank the Chairman. It is an extremely difficult market with ferocious price pressures and everybody in the market is suffering. SDS, in particular, is suffering, but significant changes have been made. The management and staff have put in place an owner-driver contractor system, which is helping to reduce costs. There are other business issues in terms of generating sufficient volume through the system. Our cost profile has been correct but we must sell more and get more product though the system to make the business viable.

With regard to ComReg's targets and our relationship, regulation is part of life for utilities, no matter which business one is involved in, whether it is energy, telecommunications, post or transport. It is a factor and one works with it. That is the attitude of the management team. We have a good working relationship with ComReg and we recognise that ComReg facilitated the last price increase in response to the grave financial situation in which the company found itself and afforded the company additional revenues. However, there are difficulties and issues and we will continue to negotiate with the commission.

Performance targets is an important issue. The company is struggling to meet the targets that have been set.

Deputy Broughan asked a question about next day delivery and the difference in the figures produced by ComReg and the company. ComReg's figure for next day delivery between January and September 2003 is 73% while An Post's figure to the end of November is 89%. There is a significant discrepancy. Does Mr. Curtin dispute ComReg's figure?

Mr. Curtin

Two measurement systems are in place and it is a case of apples and oranges as both systems measure different things. Sensibly, we have entered discussions with ComReg to provide one system. An Post and, consequently, the customer pay for two systems. The country and the company cannot afford to run two systems that do not agree with each other. We are in discussions with ComReg regarding the development of one system and that should provide the basis for one set of information. I expect that will be put in place——

How much progress has been made in this regard?

Mr. Curtin

We are making good progress. A process has been put in place by ourselves and ComReg. However, there are contractual issues, as both of us are committed to existing systems, and it will be the end of the 2004 before they will wash out. I hope common sense will break out and there will be one agreed system from 2005.

Perhaps the committee can assist in this regard. A copy of the transcript of the committee should be forwarded to ComReg.

Mr. Curtin

With regard to the unions, a number of unions other than the CWU represent management staff and clerical and other grades. There must be an even-handed approach. The pain is proportional to everybody from the top down and that is the only intent I can have.

I compliment An Post on its delivery service during the Christmas period. It was efficient, particularly in the Dublin 13 area, where I live. I compliment management and staff in that regard. I asked a question about the transformation agreement signed in July 2000, to which I did not receive a reply. Does Mr. Curtin have information regarding the number and names of consultants engaged by the company and the costs involved? This would be useful.

A former chief executive referred to a strategic alliance. Does Mr. Curtin have plans in this regard?

Mr. Curtin

I do not have information regarding consultants but I would be happy to provide it through the Chairman. It was company policy to pursue a strategic alliance. I have discussed this issue with the board and the shareholders but the current financial problems mean all our efforts must be concentrated on resolving the company's difficulties. When they are resolved, it may be more appropriate to examine the broader strategic issues. I am concentrating on the financial stability and survival of the company.

I refer to the loss of €46.7 million in 2003. I acknowledge the accounts have not been presented but I am trying to establish where the loss was made. Approximately €10 million was lost on SDS. Will Mr. McGivern outline the services that contributed to the remaining loss of approximately €36 million?

Mr. McGivern

The forecast loss in letter post is €36.3 million.

That is in addition to the €10 million on SDS. The strategic focus going forward is to sell off non-core business subsidiaries, make no international investments and withdraw from all inappropriate activities. The company is making modest profits in all the areas it is leaving. What is the rationale behind getting out of areas in which the company is making modest profits to concentrate on services on which it is making massive losses? Is the management team becoming more focused on the core issues and the responsibilities of An Post to its shareholders and clients? Does An Post not have the capability to maintain profitable non-core services while, at the same time, making necessary fundamental changes to achieve profitability in the core business? I am trying to understand the rationale behind this strategy.

Mr. Curtin

The Deputy has got it in one. While the contributions from the subsidiaries are modest, they are not significant and, even if they doubled their performance next year, it would not make a dent in the financial position of the company. However, there is such a wide range of subsidiary activity that they absorb significant management time. I must focus the management team on the core issues of mail processing and delivery, post offices and SDS. These issues will determine whether the future of An Post is successful. That will be our emphasis for the next 18 months.

However, this is a short-term strategy. The strategy is to achieve financial stability within 18 months and, by necessity, all companies need to grow. They need to target growth and their employees need the encouragement that the prospect of growth gives. I hope the company will be back in two or three years' time sensibly considering further initiatives but, in the meantime, it is sensible and prudent for An Post to concentrate on its core business and get it right.

Mr. Robinson, were you a director of the letter post operation in 2002?

Mr. Robinson

: Yes.

Were you a director in 2001?

Mr. Robinson

Yes.

Are you a director currently?

Mr. Robinson

I am now collection and delivery director.

: Are you director of letter post operations?

Mr. Curtin

I wish to clarify a number of changes. Processing has been moved into a separate business area. Mr. Robinson covers the collection and delivery of mail. Processing is handled by another individual.

Who is in charge of letter post operations in An Post?

Mr. Curtin

I am. This relates to the issue of a flatter organisation. I am no longer a group chief executive.

Mr. Curtin is chief executive and director of letter post operations. Is Mr. Waters director of post office operations?

Mr. Curtin

That is correct. I am responsible for it.

: So Mr. Robinson is director of the letter post operation.

Mr. Curtin

He is responsible for collection and delivery as distinct from processing. The factories are run by another individual.

Is the letter box issue, for example, Mr. Robinson's responsibility?

Mr. Curtin

With regard to the rural post box issue, I was concerned about what the proposal offered to An Post. We have undertaken a pilot project to ascertain the facts in Sligo and I am examining the results.

The committee made such a recommendation to the outgoing CEO last January.

Mr. Curtin

It was a sensible suggestion. The pilot project is underway in Sligo and we are examining the results. While I do not have final results, post boxes will be part of the future of An Post but they are not the solution. The solution lies in the management of the core collection and delivery business and properly and efficiently managing the resource.

As a new broom sweeping clean, would Mr. Curtin have sanctioned the expenditure of €30 million of company funds on letter boxes without consultation to ascertain whether they would be effective? Has the company's policy changed?

Mr. Curtin

Yes.

Were boxes purchased?

Mr. Curtin

I have read newspaper reports and one member commented on this. A small quantity of boxes was purchased - the figure was in the thousands - and it did not involve a significant cost to An Post.

Are they being used in the pilot scheme?

Mr. Curtin

No boxes have been put in the scheme. We are only at the point of ascertaining whether people want them.

The committee was informed by the outgoing chief executive there would be savings of between €20 million and €25 million if these boxes were introduced. The committee recommended there should be full consultation with consumers and a pilot scheme should be put in place to ascertain what the savings would be. I am glad that has been done. I felt this was a red herring last year and other members agreed.

Mr. Robinson is involved in letter post, which is a loss maker. The letter post division lost €15 million in 2001. I do not have the 2002 figure but the loss in 2003 is estimated at €36 million. How much is attributable to internal post and to external post under the REIMS agreement? How much is reserved and unreserved?

Mr. Robinson

The REIMS numbers are costing us one third of the loss. However, we need to reduce our total cost base and, by doing so, we will turn the REIMS performance around. The recent price increases will also impact on the REIMS outturn and, by 2005, the REIMS performance should be turned around considerably.

How much money was lost on internal post? Last year Mr. Hynes outlined the 2001 figure. What percentage of the €36 million was lost on internal post in the reserved and unreserved elements of the business? If Mr. Robinson does not have the figures, he can forward them.

Mr. Curtin

The figures have not been prepared for the meeting but they can be provided.

Will Mr. Curtin refer to the document given to the committee on 29 January 2003 and update us on the figures for 2002 and 2003? Mr. Curtin referred to footfall, which means a high street, whether it is the main street in Blarney, Whitechurch or Carrignavar and other new places coming into my constituency, or in Blackrock where An Post recently sold an important building. Does the policy of selling assets on high streets conflict with the policy of maintaining high street premises that can provide more services?

Mr. Curtin

I agree we must maintain a high street presence, particularly in areas of high footfall. That does not necessarily mean we must own the premises. There are alternative mechanisms and, in the case of Blackrock, for example, the company is providing as good, if not a better service, than it did. Cash has been released from a company asset. It is sensible business if we can do it this way.

Mr. Waters

It is part of our programme in company offices. There is no question the sub-office model is cheaper. We are moving to better properties in many cases. For instance, we moved across the street in Midleton. We changed from the company staff to the sub-office model but we ended up with a better premises in a different part of the main street and we freed up a leased building. There are no defined rules. There was an opportunity to sell the premises in Blackrock and we moved the post office to a contractor model in the Frascati Centre. It is not as if An Post has gone away. We are located in a centre that has parking and the office's location has benefits while the main street in Blackrock has no parking. The office had a downside although it was a valuable asset.

Was the premises sold to pay wages? Is that why the company moved to sell the premises so quickly?

Mr. Curtin

It was a sensible business decision to go to the agency in that case and to release the value of the premises. The cash was used that year to pay wages. It would have been a better business proposition if, as a management team, we could have used the released cash for investment in further expansion of the business or to return a dividend to the shareholder. However, unfortunately, given the financial circumstances, we did not have those options.

Did the company examine the possibility of lease back to raise capital? Will Mr. Waters provide an overview of the entire network? Is he aware of the earlier presentation? Did the company not have somebody present to listen to it?

Mr. Waters

No. I am broadly aware of the situation because the debate has been going on for some time. We have a network of 1,500 post offices, 1,408 of which are sub-post offices with 92 company staffed. In addition, we have 157 agencies and they are the new model of agency, which cater for social welfare and stamps. We also have 3,300 post points, which are new to the post office. Post points are a relatively new model but they are important in terms of giving us points of presence on a national basis. That gives us almost 5,000 points of presence. The post points provide e top-ups, stamps, and, more recently, Billpay. The model is changing as we move on.

We plan to convert 50 company staffed offices to sub-offices by the end of 2005 and we have started that programme. Blackrock is one of the offices in the programme.

How was the selection process initiated?

Mr. Waters

The selection process was based on volume of business from the bottom up. We examined smaller offices that could be transferred to sub-office status, make savings for the company and provide no worsening of service to our customers, which is important. It is important to examine the Clonakilty case. At this stage, we have not formally announced Clonakilty as one of the offices. We are dealing with the first 15 offices and we have been in detailed discussions with the staff. Clonakilty is in this category but, when it is converted, there will be no worsening of the service we provide. The new model will continue to provide the same service as the current offices. It is unclear whether the post points will be located in the current offices because we have not reached the stage of discussing the Clonakilty issue with the staff there. We will do that in due course.

We will provide approximately 5,000 points of presence at the end of the day and we will have 46 company staffed offices. The remaining 50 company offices will have moved to the sub-post office category providing a full range of services. There is no other plan. This is being done to reduce costs and make necessary savings within the business as part of the overall An Post savings project.

The Chairman referred to small offices and the introduction of the agency model and he mentioned Whitechurch in particular. We introduced the model in mid-2002 and since then approximately 200 sub post offices have transferred to the agency model. That results in savings for An Post but the two core services required by customers in a small town are still provided. They are welfare payments, which are critical to the business, and the sale of stamps. We continue to provide those if somebody in the town wishes to provide that service. They are central to what we are doing. The area of greatest weakness relates to welfare recipients and we have attempted within this model to cater for them while reducing our costs.

There are three stages or levels. One is the post office, which is run by the company, then there is the postmaster and the third is the agency. Is that correct?

Mr. Waters

Yes, and there is a post point.

You propose moving some of the directly involved staff in the larger centres to the next level, such as from directly involved staff down to the next level, such as a postmaster. Is that correct?

Mr. Waters

Absolutely.

A number of existing staff in the post office network would take up those positions.

Mr. Waters

Yes, that is what has happened in some of them, but we have only done five so far.

I have a number of questions. We are using Clonakilty as a case study, though this could be happening anywhere. It is the fastest growing town in County Cork and is similar to places like Midleton, which is also a growth town. I am interested in the level of confrontation with staff or management in offices like Clonakilty before the decision that they were likely to be downgraded was announced, though you may not agree with the term downgraded in relation to changing from a post office to a sub-post office or agency.

Is it not appropriate to have consultation in order to establish the likely growth figures for a town like Clonakilty for the next five years before deciding to downgrade it? If that had been done, you would have seen that Clonakilty is likely to continue to be one of the fastest growing towns in Cork, with BIM and other large organisations moving into the area under the decentralisation programme. The presentation this morning expressed disbelief that An Post had made the decision to close Clonakilty without consultation, or setting out the criteria for the decision to change a company post office into a sub-post office. The discussion came to the conclusion that perhaps the criteria for the decision on downgrading are not based purely on how busy an office is or the number of transactions. I have a figure of 180,000 computer-tracked transactions in Clonakilty last year and that seems quite high. What would be an average number of transactions per year in a company post office?

Our conclusion was that another factor is the consideration of asset sell-off within An Post. For example, the post office building in Clonakilty is a valuable premises in the centre of the town bordering the main square, which also has parking for cars. Is An Post making the decision to close post offices not on the number of transactions or on whether a town will generate business but based on another factor which is not being discussed openly? Is the value of an asset to an Post another factor? If the post office in Clonakilty were made into a sub-post office obviously it would not be in the same premises and, therefore, An Post has a very valuable asset to sell to add to the damage limitation we mentioned earlier.

Let us be up-front. Is the amount of business conducted by post offices the sole factor dictating the change of status in post offices, or, like some Teagasc offices, is part of the equation made up by the value of the premises and its potential for sale? Sorry the question is long-winded but the group knows what I am saying. The Clonakilty group gave us figures this morning which suggest that it is hard to make a case for downgrading the post office. That was why we asked the group to attend the committee.

Mr. Curtin

I will give a broad comment and Mr. Waters will discuss the matter in detail.

I am not sure if the company got a copy of the presentation. Perhaps we can give them a copy before they leave.

Mr. Curtin

I assure the Deputy that realisable value is not one of the criteria and in particular not in the Clonakilty case - absolutely not. The issue is judged purely on footfall, usability and use of office. Asset value which is then released is a consequence. That is how it is treated and I give a personal guarantee on that.

On consultation, there is a process involving very active consultation which has been agreed with the CWU. The process has been jointly agreed with the CWU and will be rigidly carried out in Clonakilty with the staff before we start it.

Mr. Waters

We see this as being different to downgrading. We see this as changing from company staff offices to contract status. That is where we are coming from. The premises issue is a major one in Clonakilty and I am unsure whether we will move premises. It depends on our discussions with the staff. Originally we discussed 15 locations but some areas decided themselves they were on the list and made this into a very public issue. When we announced Clonakilty as an office we wanted to convert, we discussed in detail what was to happen there. We will speak to the staff involved and ask if any of them are interested in becoming the contractor. One of them may wish to do so and locate in the Clonakilty premises. That is for another day but we have not made a decision about moving out of the building.

There is no hidden agenda about flogging the building or making money out of it. That is absolute. This will evolve in the future. I do not know if members know Midleton, which is a good model of office conversion, and where we have a relatively snug, good premises. We moved from leased premises in the high street, thereby releasing a leased premises, but there was no agenda. If one looks at the national situation, or the Cork area in particular, places like Carrigaline, Glanmmire, Midleton, Blarney and Passage West are all operated on the contract model. We are not picking out Clonakilty.

Are they operating with postmasters?

Mr. Waters

Yes, they have been operating well in that way and some of them have significantly higher volumes of business than Clonakilty. I picked the non-town offices deliberately, but Cork city operates with one company premises and the rest of the city offices operate on contracts. All of those work on the contract model and I do not see why that cannot work in Clonakilty, which is a relatively small town. A newspaper today states 20,000 people live there. The most recent census——

What newspaper?

Mr. Waters

The Irish Examiner.

I got that newspaper today but I did not read that. I was too busy reading a one-line comment about myself and my constituency, though I gave a reporter a half-hour interview last night.

: Going back to last year, when we had presentations which have now proved controversial, two things stand out. One relates to the policy on post-boxes at people's gates, when I was struck by the huge influence of ComReg in the running of An Post. I felt sorry for the executives at the time as they were operating in a very regulated environment which will involve further opening of the market, given European regulations will mean changes. In the range of issues this committee covers, it is following a standard model regarding the opening up of services. Last year, as well as the An Post presentation we had a presentation from someone running a profitable direct mail business.

Is the company facing further difficulties with the opening of markets to commercial operators? Will it be going back to the issue of deliveries to postboxes at gates rather than people's houses? Will that have to be reconsidered? We were talking about the unions but what is ComReg's role in terms of the universal service obligation? What is ComReg's position in this process?

The delegation will be pleased to know we have almost finished.

Mr. Curtin

On the opening of the market, competition is a reality in all utility services. Management must get used to that, but the management team is confident about An Post being able to carve out its market position. There will be difficulties but we have a good product, good staff and a tremendous reputation with our customers. That is a good base from which to build. We would be foolish to say we are not concerned about competition, but we are not afraid of it and we are going about the business of meeting the competitive challenge. I am absolutely confident that as a group we will do very good business.

The current recovery plan does not need a significant contribution from postboxes. If the current trial is undertaken and it indicates that significant savings could be made, then that will be implemented and will contribute to the financial health of the company going forward. However, that is not a necessity.

Is it not normal in other countries for postboxes to be put up by the individuals concerned? I presume there will be consultation with the public but nobody would feel postmen should drive half a mile up a boreen to one household if that family owns that boreen. Politicians would agree to putting our leaflets into such postboxes. Putting a leaflet in every door is the best way to communicate with people. Politicians have to do that so why not ask householders if they wish to put up postboxes themselves?

Mr. Curtin

I agree, but this is not a panacea. The letterbox issue requires much consultation, as we are discovering in Sligo. If it proves effective, that will be a medium to long-term solution. It is not an immediate answer and we are not gambling the company's future on it being one.

What is ComReg's role?

Mr. Curtin

ComReg is a fact of life. We deal with that body and it is a professional relationship. We have no concerns or difficulties in that area.

I asked a question earlier which the delegation has not had a chance to answer. On the universal service obligation and An Post's attitude to it, in section E there is a plan to introduce cost-reflective pricing for non-USO and international mail services. If that is simplified, it means An Post intends to challenge its universal service obligation. When is it planned to do this? Are we talking about those in rural Ireland spending more to send letters than those in Dublin, Cork or Galway? This is highly controversial, but I can see why it is being raised. It costs An Post more to carry letters in rural areas because it involves longer distances.

On the cost of postage in Ireland, there seems to be a clear indication under section E that further price increases will be sought in 2004. What rate of increase is An Post hoping to achieve if ComReg approves it?

Mr. Curtin

On the non-USO issue I was referring to issues which do not come under the universal service obligation and some areas are open to competition. We have put in cost-reflective pricing, which includes, reasonably, a return and margin for the company if it provides a competitive service. An Post, like any other company in a competitive environment, should expect to make a profit on its business and that is what it has done.

On the USO, An Post is very firmly complying with its requirements to make universal delivery at the same cost throughout the country, which it is obliged to do. However, there is an issue which all of us, company and policy-makers, need to consider. Electronic substitution and declining use of the postal service are realities. However, there is also a need for An Post not just to maintain, but to extend its service as every time a house is built, An Post must extend its network. As we all know, there is an increase in housing units of the order of 60,000 extra units per annum. I am a new arrival to the company but, on behalf of the company, I suggest that policy-makers should consider that issue in an era when it is expected that the service is maintained and extended. However, if people do not use the service, who covers the balance of the cost? Perhaps there is an issue here to be discussed in the future.

It is unreasonable to expect the company to continue to meet this requirement when usage is declining, although an increase in coverage is expected. No other utility service is expected to provide a service in that financial situation. It may be unfair on the company and may have to be addressed in the future, but we accept as management that we have financial problems we must solve. When we have resolved that problem, we will come back and have discussions with this committee, which presumably is representative of policy-makers.

As deregulation proceeds, competitors will not have a universal service obligation, or will they?

Mr. Curtin

I accept that, but I already said that I have no great fear for An Post when it comes to competition. An Post is a good company and knows its business. When we get our act together in certain areas, we will be able to compete for business and we are not afraid of that.

And the cost increases?

Mr. Curtin

Some 75% of our cost base is labour-related and everyone knows labour costs have increased through national agreements. At a minimum I expect the tariff to increase regarding the costs we have to take on board arising from national wage agreements in the future.

The average European tariff is 51 cent to 53 cent while An Post's is 48 cent and it must compete. The company is not expecting the customer to pay for its inefficiencies?

Mr. Curtin

No, but I said that our target and responsibility is to make the business efficient. Having done that, the company is still in a labour business and there will be national wage agreements. It is not unreasonable to expect our tariff increases to reflect that fact.

Is that a matter for the regulator to decide according to international norms?

Mr. Curtin

Yes.

Are cost increases in line with wage increases?

Mr. Curtin

Given that over 70% of our costs are reflective of wage increases it is not unreasonable to expect us to recover such increases, but we have to be efficient as well.

Has An Post any plans to introduce postal codes? What is the average collection time in major towns and sorting centres? Is it earlier than 5.30 p.m. as recommended by ComReg last year? Are collections earlier in any towns?

Mr. Curtin

I am conscious that the regulator has instituted a review of the postal code issue, but An Post's public position is that since the introduction of the automated equipment system there is no requirement for postal codes for An Post's purposes. They may be needed for other reasons but a postal code is an expensive business. From a business perspective we do not need postal codes to effectively deliver mail. If postal codes are required, it will be someone else's decision. Costs will be involved and An Post signalled that the costs will have to be incurred and dealt with by someone else. The delivery times issue is where I run out of information.

Mr. Robinson

The latest posting time in all main towns the country is 5.30 p.m. apart from Bantry, which traditionally has always been earlier.

What is the relationship between letter post and post offices in the organisation? At one time the post offices were the poor relation and the letter post was more important. Has that been reversed and have post offices taken centre stage? Is a profit being made, Mr. Waters?

Mr. Waters

We are about to break even.

Good man. Well done.

Mr. Waters

We are a small piece of the business - approximately 20%.

What is Mr. Curtin's view?

Mr. Curtin

The main business of An Post is the collection, processing and delivery of mail. In order to manage it, we have put in place an organisation which reflects that process, which is a sensible thing to do. Mr. Robinson represents collection and delivery and another person runs the automated plants. I have overall responsibility.

Has there been a sea change in that the organisation is driven by rolling out the post office network and generating more revenue?

Mr. Curtin

That is correct and there is an interest now because the management team has been very successful in bringing the business back from the precipice towards recovery. There is an emphasis on achieving growth in the postal industry, which I hope to see when we get through our current difficulties.

For the record, An Post had a growth rate in the boom years of 5% to 10% in letter post, but it is now about 1% per year.

Mr. Curtin

The underling trend means that when one takes out some price rises we may have to plan against no growth in volume.

Is there room in the sorting offices for extra volume?

Mr. Curtin

Curiously, yes, at certain times of the year. In terms of looking at new products and proposals, we intend to maximise use and to attract people to using the service at specific times of the year in specific ways. It is profitable for us to take certain types of post at certain times of year and we will construct our product to fill up the capacity.

The Minister met the board in October and it is unusual for a semi-State company to give monthly financial reports to the Department, which means very close invigilation by the Minister of the day. How long is that expected to continue?

Is that a matter for the board?

Mr. Curtin

I suggest that it is. I am a professional manager responding to the owners of the company and if the shareholders require monthly reports, I supply them. It is up to the shareholders to decide the content and frequency of the reports.

I do not want to put the CEO in a position where he answers questions the board should answer. I thank Mr. Curtin and his staff for appearing before us. They have a mammoth task ahead of them and I appeal to all players, particularly the staff and unions, to save the company. It is embedded in the culture of the country and we, as members, do not want to see An Post close, nor do we want parts of it broken up and taken over by foreign or other interests. We should all remember that An Post cannot receive Government funding. When it runs out of assets and sells its profit-making subsidiaries, it will not be able to borrow from the banks as they will not lend to anybody in a loss-making situation and which cannot solve internal problems.

We will wait for the annual report and Mr. Curtin might ask the secretary of the company to forward it to us, as is normal. The committee will then decide whether to invite in the board to answer questions Deputy Broughan and others had about the governance of the company. If we wish to invite in the Minister, Deputy Dermot Ahern, who is the shareholder, we can do so at that time. It was important to tease out these issues today and that is no reflection on Mr. Curtin's integrity. There were questions which were not answered and we would appreciate the relevant information in that regard being sent on to us. If material is commercially sensitive, it will be treated in confidence by the committee, which may not need to go into that detail.

We are not into micromanaging but we must ensure a semi-State body performs well. Unfortunately, that has not been the case in recent years and we wish Mr. Curtin and his team well in their work saving the company. I understand the agreement is to be finalised by May this year and I hope all players will come to the table and resolve these problems.

Mr. Curtin

I thank the committee for its tolerance. It was our first visit and we wanted to be as open as practicable. If there is more information the committee requires, please ask and we will be happy to supply it.

The joint committee adjourned at 5.20 p.m. sine die.
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