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JOINT COMMITTEE ON COMMUNICATIONS, MARINE AND NATURAL RESOURCES debate -
Tuesday, 21 Mar 2006

Energy Policy Review: Presentation.

I welcome the EU Commissioner for Energy, Mr. Andris Piebalgs. On 8 March the European Commission published the Green Paper, A European Strategy for Sustainable, Competitive and Secure Energy. It is important for the joint committee and the Oireachtas that the Commissioner was able to accept the invitation to address us. I thank the Commissioner for accepting our invitation because I know it is not easy to find time in his busy schedule.

Before we begin, I wish to place these discussions in context. The joint committee is conducting a review of Irish energy policy. This review will conclude with the publication of a report, to be laid before the Houses of the Oireachtas, which will contemplate: global gas and oil peak production; securing Ireland's future energy supply; renewable energy policy, having regard to biomass, biofuels, wind and wave energy resources; the European common energy policy; and future development of the energy market having regard to regulation, competition and liberalisation. The committee commenced its review on 10 March 2004, when the then Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources, Deputy Dermot Ahern, outlined to the committee the issues to be addressed. We have heard from a diverse range of stakeholders and our review concludes today as we consider, with Commissioner Piebalgs, the EU dimension and EU energy policy.

Before I ask the Commissioner to begin, I wish to advise everyone that there will be a short presentation of approximately 15 to 20 minutes' duration and that this will be followed by a question and answer session. We have no more than an hour in which to conclude our deliberations because the Commissioner must attend another engagement before leaving the country. I ask members to confine their contributions to two questions each and we can see how much time remains thereafter.

I draw everyone's attention to the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege but that this same privilege does not apply to the witnesses appearing before the committee which cannot guarantee any level of privilege to witnesses. Further, under the salient rulings of the Chair, members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Perhaps the Commissioner will commence his presentation. He met most of the members during our exchanges over a brief lunch. I thank him and his officials for attending.

Commissioner Andris Piebalgs

It is a great honour to be invited to attend a meeting of this committee. I appreciate the invitation very much. I arranged to attend a meeting as soon as possible after the adoption of the Green Paper on European energy policy. Ireland is the first country I have visited after the adoption of the Green Paper on foot of the debate at the Transport, Telecommunications and Energy Council. I have visited Ireland in advance of the debate on energy policy at the European Council that will take place at the end of this week.

It is important that the committee is reviewing energy policy in Ireland. The EU's consideration of European energy policy is taking place as part of the same vision. Each member state is making its own decisions to reach the right solutions to the challenges we face.

I wish to highlight four principal challenges that we face at a global level. There has been a tremendous increase in global demand for oil, gas and energy resources in general. This is not a short-term increase but a fundamental increase in demand for energy. It could be argued, from one point of view, that we should be happy that there is growth in Europe, America, China, India and many other countries. From another point of view, however, we know that there are constraints on resources and that, even with major investment, we will continue to be obliged to face certain issues. The International Energy Agency perceives that if demand continues to grow as it is at present — that growth does not even have to increase — we will need 60% more energy resources by 2030. This means that constraints will continue to exist, thereby influencing the price of energy. It will also impact on the volatility of the market. The price of energy will be affected by, for example, events in Nigeria or the development of a nuclear programme in Iran.

The second issue relates to the importation of hydrocarbons. Each of the citizens of the European Union noticed the effects of this issue in the first days of this year, when the gas dispute between Russia and Ukraine constrained the supply of gas to the Union. It was a wake-up call for our citizens, who were reminded of our dependency on imported hydrocarbons. We import 50% of our resources. If current trends continue, we will be importing 70% of our resources. There is nothing wrong with importing resources, as long as there is a stable, transparent and open market. As members are aware, the situation is not always easy. There is instability in many countries that possess substantial resources. That is a particular challenge for the European Union. Most of the growth in demand is found in countries that are importing resources.

The third issue relates to investment needs. There has been a substantial level of under-investment in energy. The Union as a whole needs to spend €1 trillion in the next 20 years to ensure that there is security of supply for its citizens. This is an immense challenge because investment is needed not only in generation facilities but also in transport facilities, interconnectors and new pipelines. The investment needs are immense. We definitely have private capital that could address such immense needs. This means that we should provide a stable and predictable environment for such investments to be made. Last, but not least, energy policy in the near future and also in the long term will be strongly influenced by developments in the environment and in particular climate change. This issue is somehow overshadowed by what is happening in Ukraine and Russia in respect of high oil prices. However, it is known that this is the most important challenge we face in the area of energy. We should seek not only security of supply but also a sustainable supply that does not influence climate change. This poses a particular challenge for energy policy.

As a result of what I said regarding the four main challenges, we search for a global answer. In response to the challenges, we cannot just close the border and try to protect ourselves without looking at the outside world. The answer to the challenge of achieving security of supply and sustainability must be global. This means that the European Union must have a policy in this area. The energy policy has three objectives, namely, security of supply, sustainability and competitiveness. Energy policy should not only ensure security of supply and sustainability but should also provide Europe with the possibility to compete and to provide jobs in the European Union. It is not contradictory — it is the opposite — to address the security of supply issue in a sustainable manner. It provides for competitive advantages that will bring prosperity and jobs to the European Union. At the same time, I emphasise that we should look upon the three objectives in this way.

The Commission carried out an analysis of the challenges and made proposals to the Council and Parliament regarding how to create a common European energy policy or strategy that will not impact on subsidiarity but that will provide added value. It did so while recognising that a decision on energy policy in one member state will have an influence on the policies of other member states and in light of the clear potential, in scope and scale, for an EU of 25 or 27 members to achieve much more than even the biggest member state alone.

We must also be clear that there is not a silver bullet that could be used to address the challenges. Sometimes it is simplified and people seek a magical energy source that will supply an answer to all the issues. There is not such a source. This means that we should pursue activities in many areas and each single measure should be seen in light of subjective subvention. At the same time, it must be understood that only a synchronous approach in all areas can bring success. The Green Paper outlines six areas for action, all of which are equally important. It is not the case that an action listed on page 14 is more important than one on page 25 — all actions are important.

Let us start with fully competitive energy markets in Europe. In this area, we have moved ahead quite substantially. Although there are many complaints about energy prices in Europe, the latest publication of EUROSTAT shows that, in real terms, energy prices in Europe are still lower than they were in 1995. At the same time, however, it is clear that there are deficiencies in the market. Some of these are easy to identify. First, not all member states have implemented legislation and the Commission is commencing infringement proceedings against these countries. Second, competition issues have always been addressed in a particularly vigorous manner. The Commission is now doing that and is also encouraging national anti-trust authorities to do so.

We should take a step forward in some areas. I will indicate four areas in which action is clearly needed in addition to the implementation of the second package, not only in letter but also in spirit. First, in respect of physical interconnection, we are lagging behind. There will be a genuinely competitive market when consumers in Portugal have the opportunity to choose providers in Finland and obtain their energy through the power exchange in that way. That can be achieved if there is adequate physical interconnection. The Commission will examine the level of interconnection that will be necessary and consider how it can address the lack of interconnection and lines. The lack of interconnection is sometimes caused by a failure to put in place power plants or pipelines to provide for a real European energy market and to bring about the best possible energy prices in cities.

The second issue is transparency in the market. There are 25 markets with at least 25 different transmission system operators and these are aware of everything that happens in their national markets. That information needs to be available to all market participants if, as the Commission would like, a European market is to be established. We should take action in respect of the transparency issue by considering how to encourage the exchange of information at an appropriate level. It is clear that all transmission system operators should be allowed to give all necessary information to market participants.

The third area relates to the organisation of the market. We currently have national and regional market organisations but we do not have European market organisations. We should ensure that there is a European power exchange, whereby a person in Portugal can buy electricity from Finland. The three activities I have identified in the EU regulatory area would facilitate cross-border trade. Market liberalisation will have limited results in the absence of cross-border trade. It is clear that we need to provide for certainty, transparency and the necessary investment in the global EU market, which will bring about the best prices for our consumers.

The second priority is security of supply. It is sometimes suggested that this is a less important issue for countries in eastern Europe but that is not the case. Countries in every part of Europe could face disruption of supply. Some important things should be done. We could introduce more transparency in the market. We need to make preparations to ensure our citizens can be certain that if there is disruption of supply, adequate mechanisms will be in place and physical supplies will be available to give them appropriate energy resources. This means that our oil stocks should be directed to prove we have that flexibility in respect of oil products. We should develop the same vision in respect of gas. We should consider how to strengthen the security of supply directive in a way that will give each citizen confidence that the existing system will cope in the event of a disruption of supply at global level or within a single member state. It is important that all member states, including eastern European countries such as Poland, should be aware that the EU system can support each member state.

The third area is the energy mix. In a way, we are making progress on the energy mix by trying to meet the targets for renewable energies. That is the route we are taking, but the challenge is much deeper. When each member state makes an energy policy decision, it should be aware of the policies being adopted in other countries. Ireland is naturally closer to the UK market but the Belgian or Dutch markets also have an indirect influence on the price level in Ireland because the gas comes from Germany, via Belgium, to the UK and on to Ireland or it could be different.

It is intended to disseminate information on this issue. The Commission intends to propose the carrying out each year of a strategic EU energy review that will reflect developments in the EU market. In this way we can provide the best possible information to national policy makers. We can also provide for an overall energy strategy that could allow us to formulate an objective for the Union in the context of a mix of the minimum levels of the overall EU energy mix from secure, indigenous and low carbon energy sources. We must examine where Europe is going. We are at different starting positions and it will never be the case that the energy mix of country X will be the same as that of country Y. However, we should see the Union as a common market and, at the same time, we should consider where we are heading, whether it be towards 70% independence, 90% independence or 60% independence, coupled with the use of indigenous resources. We know the different possibilities that exist but the Union should have a vision with regard to where it is heading. It is difficult to formulate the position at this stage but we are looking for Ireland's support for strong targets. The Union has set 2030 for this target.

The first priority is to address the climate change goal but this is also appropriate in terms of energy mix. This issue relates to that of energy efficiency, the area in which the Union should concentrate most of its efforts. As long as there is growth in energy consumption, the position is not sustainable. We can increase energy generation capacities but we will be obliged to seek new power sources. There is the possibility of living at today's level of comfort using the energy level of 1990. The 20% potential that was calculated by estimating the price of oil at $30 per barrel indicates that the 1990 level of EU fuel consumption would be sufficient to keep us at today's level of comfort, perhaps at its biggest potential. This is a critical area because global success depends on that of the Union and our experience should be mirrored in other parts of the world.

There are some attempts to move forward in the United States and China, where energy efficiency has been made the first priority. We should lead the world. We should achieve it by showing example, determination and experience. We have already adopted legislation and an energy efficiency action plan for Europe is in the pipeline. Each member state will have an opportunity to examine it. This is a critical area and I urge members to give it the attention it deserves. Many small measures are required. I accept that I sound like a preacher but I really believe that we have fallen behind. We have failed to date and I do not know what are the reasons for this. It appears that we do not believe there is potential but we should begin to use it.

The other issue involves renewable energies. It has been claimed that there is too much support for renewables. This is wrong. All the support for renewable energy is according to the state-aided schemes approved in the Union. There is nothing anti-competitive in what is being done. Renewables would follow if the prices become extremely high but it will be a long and very painful transition. Including renewables in our energy mix means that the transition from an oil-based economy to one based on clean energy will be less painful. This area, which provides for sustainability and security of supply, is very important, bearing in mind that resources such as wind are immense. We would never say that a time will come when demand will peak. Competitiveness and advantage concerning other parts of the world should be considered.

The fifth area to be considered is technology. It is an obvious truth that technology makes us strong or weak. On the question of education and technological development, using the potential of the entire European Union is critical. It is not only the framework programmes, including the seventh, that are important, it is also important that research carried out in each European company or university be interlinked, thereby providing the best possible outcome. We have had good responses thus far on energy efficiency and renewables and have made quite remarkable progress regarding carbon.

Last but not least is external energy policy. The answer is global and we should, therefore, be sharing our vision globally. This is our first priority. Even in light of all the developments concerning renewables and energy efficiency, we should note that hydrocarbons will remain the most important part of our energy supply for some time. To achieve security of supply, the global market needs to function well. We should try to support the countries with the resources to develop in a democratic and market economy-friendly way by seeking necessary investment and using private or public capital to provide for responses from the market that will guarantee sustainable prices. The latter will result in enough income for those nations, while permitting sufficient growth in other countries. In this regard, we intend to strengthen dialogue between the Union and Russia, OPEC, Norway and the Caspian Sea countries. We will seek new participants to supply the European market. We will consider the Caspian Sea countries, the Middle East — in respect of gas — and north Africa. We must provide for the entry of additional resources to the European Union, while understanding clearly that a well-supplied China or America is also in our interest. Global supply in the market should be strengthened.

We would also like to bring our vision, as established in respect of the Balkan countries in south-east Europe, to other near neighbours. The EU approach, although not always perfect, is still the best in the world. The global market connects different nations of different cultures. It is a question of having security of supply for all citizens.

I thank members for their attention and I am ready to answer all their questions on energy policy or broader Union policy.

I thank the Commissioner for attending and for his clear thinking on the area of European energy and future security of supply. I congratulate him on the publication of the Green Paper.

What is the Commissioner's view on energy policy development in Ireland, particularly in view of the fact that we have two dominant suppliers, one in each of the electricity and gas markets? In what way does he believe competition that will benefit consumers, both domestic and industrial, will develop in light of the fact that Ireland has higher prices than many of its competitors in the European Union?

As regards the development of policy in the future, will the Commissioner indicate the extent to which European institutions might be prepared to offer assistance towards the development of technology, biofuels, biomass and various forms of alternative energy? To what extent does he envisage European support developing for those options in the future, particularly as the Green Book stipulates that it is imperative to develop these as quickly as possible and in a carefully planned manner?

Perhaps Commissioner Piebalgs might keep in mind that this is an island nation. I know he will have heard already that the only two ways to get off this island is either by flying or sailing. Given those circumstances, I hope that some thought will be given in the EU to the fact that, unlike most of our European counterparts, we cannot necessarily travel by train from one end of our country to the other. That could impose on us certain problems in the future as regards compliance with the Kyoto Protocol, although it would not necessarily do so at present.

In light of the time constraint under which the Commissioner is operating, I am sure members will be brief. I suggest that we take questions from Deputy Broughan and that the Commissioner answer these, in conjunction with those of Deputy Durkan, before we proceed to the contributions of other members.

On behalf of the Labour Party, I welcome Commissioner Piebalgs to our Parliament. I commend the Green Book and the efforts he has made to date as regards energy.

My first question relates to the Green Book. Does he accept that there has been serious criticism of the latter throughout Europe in respect of the fact that he may perhaps have focused on security of supply and external energy diplomacy issues involving Russia, north Africa, etc., rather than on increasing energy efficiency, decreasing consumption and developing renewables? Is that a fair criticism? The German Minister of the Environment, Mr. Sigmar Gabriel, strongly criticised what he believed to be a disproportionate focus on nuclear power in the Green Book. How does the Commissioner respond to such criticisms?

The Polish Minister for Energy last week proposed the establishment of an NATO-style EU energy security pact. The security issue is so grave for countries such as the Commissioner's native land, Latvia, and for eastern Europe in particular that there must be a fundamental shift towards a common energy policy. What is his response to that matter? How can he reconcile the points he made regarding the sovereignty rights of member states on key issues such as the forms of energy they use and the sources from which these come with what is outlined in the Polish proposal?

Competition is obviously a key European strategy for sustainable, competitive and secure energy. As regards Ireland, the Commissioner stated that prices are lower than they were in 1995. However, that is not our experience. We have the sixth or seventh highest price for electricity and many low income households find it difficult to meet their gas and electricity bills and have not yet gained as a result of the introduction of competition. What are the Commissioner's views on that matter? Is he proposing a European regulator for a European market? If so, in a regional market, will there be a regulator for Britain and Ireland?

Does the Commissioner believe that Ireland should have a major gas reserve and that its oil reserves should be increased?

As regards the biofuel target of 5.75% of transport fuels by 2010, Ireland is a long way short of meeting that because only a tiny proportion of transport vehicles here use biofuels. Would the Commissioner propose the imposition of mandatory targets in respect of biofuels?

Commissioner Piebalgs

I thank members for their welcome for the Green Book. On the question of the Irish market, I have quite substantial doubts about the competitiveness of the Irish market. For a market to be competitive, the unbundling should be done properly. Unbundling means that any generator could have regulated, non-discriminatory third party access. This is a key condition for providing a competitive market.

The second issue is that of switching, which is one of the indicators of customer use. This has been at the level of 10% for electricity for industrial clients and 5% for private households. It is not sufficient to say that there is enough competition in Ireland. I believe there are issues to be tackled. The Commission will ensure that the market will be competitive and that both the spirit and the letter of the second package of liberalisation is implemented in Ireland. This is an important issue. If there is third party access and a level playing field, there will be enough investment in generation capacity, not only in conventional energies but also in renewables.

On the question of biotechnology, biofuels and the development of renewables in general, there are state-aided support schemes, which we intend to continue and which will be reviewed on an ongoing basis. The seventh framework programme will also examine ways of supporting research in this area. In countries where the Structural Funds are available, we encourage those countries to use the funds to strengthen the use of indigenous energy sources and energy-efficient sources. Another important area is the Intelligent Energy Europe programme, which encourages the use of biotechnologies and renewable energy sources in general in member states. We will continue to support this by means of legislative instruments.

On the question of the next Kyoto Protocol period, this is at the heart of question of future energy policy. The Heads of State and Government should at some stage reflect on European policy. I am confident, as a European citizen, that we should continue our policy against climate change, but we must decide our objectives and the best way of achieving them. This is a huge challenge. We should be ambitious but also realistic in our targets regarding what can be achieved and what methods to use. Climate change is the biggest challenge to face the European Union and the wider global community.

Criticism of the Green Paper is misguided. I have never encountered a more environmentally-friendly Green Paper. This is the only way forward. The Green Book clearly states what an agreed target means for us. The issues of energy, security of supply and competitiveness are addressed from a sustainable viewpoint. People may perhaps have the wrong perception as regards the Green Book.

I recently published a Green Book on energy efficiency and we are planning an action plan in this area. Last year, nobody believed that we would adopt the energy end-use efficiency and energy services directive but we made a major breakthrough. These issues are dealt with in the paper.

There has also been criticism as regards nuclear energy and this, too, is unfair. There are nuclear power stations in the European Union. We cannot close our eyes. I received many letters from Ireland in respect of nuclear energy because Sellafield is not too far away from here. We should not close our eyes and we must realise that there is an issue regarding the final storage of nuclear waste in the countries that use it. We should not close our eyes to decommissioning and safety issues. Other countries use nuclear power. We also know that in other member states, 80% of electricity is produced from nuclear power plants.

Nuclear power is part of our energy mix. No country is forced to build nuclear power stations and the paper makes this clear. We should not try to pretend that nothing is happening in this area. A new power station has been built in Finland and developments are taking place in other Baltic states, which is their democratic choice. We must be clear in pointing out the positives and the deficiencies. Each member state will make its own decision as to whether to use nuclear power.

The Union is bigger than this. As a citizen of Latvia, where nuclear power is not used, I would like to know that nuclear power stations operating in other parts of the European Union or even in countries neighbouring mine meet all the basic safety criteria. I should know how the waste will be stored, that the decommissioning will be carried out properly and that sufficient funds are available. We have no right to fail to discuss the issue and pretend that it does not arise. I know nuclear power is controversial in some countries. I am also aware that certain states that do not have nuclear power plants use energy generated in states in which such plants are located. We are not recommending having more or less: we are just saying that there is nuclear power.

On the issue of a so-called "energy NATO", this indicates that the Union is large. The Polish proposal in this regard was provoked by the announcement regarding the Baltic pipeline and the effect on Germany and Russia. If it were done in a Community framework, nobody would be discussing it. However, it remains an issue. Some countries have felt threatened by the energy policy of others. We are trying to put forward the message that this policy is not against them. We clearly understand the necessity for external actions to be carried out in the same way. The basic elements of the proposal from the Polish Government are dealt with in the Green Paper. If all member states agree an external energy policy, they will speak with the same voice and there will be solidarity. However, solidarity does not mean that individuals do not need to work; it means that all of us are investing and helping each other when the situation demands.

With regard to Ireland and the market, the price of electricity here is one of the highest in the Union. Competition definitely can help to provide better prices, particularly when primary resources are becoming more expensive. The market has the potential to provide more. Considering Ireland as an island, cross-Border trade can provide for even better prices for customers. The market has always provided the best possible prices for customers when all conditions for fair competition have been met.

At this stage, there is no obligation for Ireland to have gas reserves. In the event of disruptions to the security of supply, it is always helpful to have such reserves. However, the European Union has not regulated in this regard.

I believe the oil reserves are sufficient. We are well equipped with a 90-day oil reserve. We can speak about how to co-ordinate our activities in a better manner but I still believe that we are well equipped in respect of oil reserves. I have no doubt that this is the case. Our reaction to the disruption of supply caused by Hurricane Katrina showed that we are well equipped.

Meeting compulsory or indicative targets is not as important as taking action. All member states have much to do in this regard. There are ambitious targets of 21% in the electricity sector. Each member state has tailor-made targets. If some countries have half-achieved their targets by 2006, it would not be helpful if I were to initiate infringement procedures. If the potential is there, I should be more interested in the measures being taken to achieve the targets. I am more interested in checking whether action is being taken than in numbers. However, it does no harm to have vision.

If ambitious targets are set, countries will examine how they can be best achieved. It is helpful to provide for political visibility of projects and to use the best possible methods to achieve that. There is nothing wrong with a system of compulsory or indicative targets, although it is perhaps less important for me, as an EU Commissioner. I think it is important that targets are reached. I will follow all the actions that are taken or not taken to achieve the targets. In the case of compulsory targets, I will try to use all the instruments in my power to ensure that such targets are reached.

I thank Commissioner Piebalgs for attending. He referred to the Green Paper in his initial statement. Other Commission officials have mentioned a target date of 2030. The head of Exxon Mobil recently said that decisions on energy policy must be taken in decades rather than years. Would it not be more intelligent for us to set a slightly longer-term target to give us a better picture of security of supply and other issues we must address? Perhaps we should set a target date of 2050 or 2100. I am concerned that the vision of the Green Paper, which refers to a target date of 2030, is too short.

I would be interested in hearing whether Commissioner Piebalgs, or the Commission as a whole, has any idea of when global oil production will peak within the long-term timeframe or even within a shorter term. Are we working on the basis of an assumption that global oil production will peak on a certain date in the near future? Are we living in cloud cuckoo land, just like the International Energy Agency, by presuming that the peak is a long way off? I would be interested in the comments of Commissioner Piebalgs in that regard.

The role of gas in electricity production is an important issue for Ireland. As Commissioner Piebalgs highlighted, Ireland is at the end of a gas pipeline that comes from Russia and passes through Belgium and Britain. I am particularly concerned about the narrow and difficult connection between Belgium and Britain. Does the Commissioner agree that the liberalisation of the European market has strengthened a small number of incumbent large energy companies, rather than creating a more competitive market? That we do not have a competitive or fluid market is exemplified by the lack of fluidity in gas transfer between the Continent of Europe and Britain and Ireland. How does Commissioner Piebalgs intend to address specifically the dominance of certain companies and the lack of fluidity in the energy market, particularly in the gas sector?

On radio this morning, the Commissioner made the case for the possibility of a European electricity transmission network. I agree with him in that regard and I commend him on his remarks. He rightly extolled a vision of such a network connecting offshore wind farms from the Irish Sea, the North Sea and the Baltic Sea. Such a network would assist the long-term prospects of wind energy as a means of fuelling Europe. How could such a transmission network be funded or supported, given that it requires solidarity between different nations and a co-ordinated vision? Would it be possible for the Commission to become involved in the direct funding, research or commissioning of such a trans-European electricity network to try to provide some of the connectivity referred to by the Commissioner in a single European market?

I also welcome the Commissioner. I will continue from where Deputy Eamon Ryan concluded because I wish to make the same point. European states are not the same size. Ireland, in particular, is suffering because it is an isolated market. Deputy Eamon Ryan referred to the capacity and potential of offshore wind energy. What assistance will be available to a marginalised market such as Ireland's in terms of interconnectivity? We must engage in a meaningful way in regard to providing supplies into the rest of Europe. To what can Ireland, as an isolated market, look forward in terms of the delivery of this aim? The Commissioner is undoubtedly aware that liberalisation has not worked for the smaller isolated markets.

The production of ethanol from willow or from cellulose sources suits our climate but further research and development is required. We must all be somewhat self-interested because we are concerned about the rising cost of fuel prices here. The Commissioner stated twice that security of supply is a major issue for eastern Europe. I would suggest that Ireland is in a far worse position because it is at the end of the pipeline. In the event of a crisis, those countries at the beginning or midway along the pipeline will be in a better position than those at the end of it.

We spoke during lunch about having the same voice. That is a nice, nuanced variation on having one voice. In the event of a catastrophe causing a major interruption in supply, does the Commissioner not believe that everybody will scramble to look after their own interests? How is it possible to sustain solidarity in this regard? Does the Commissioner envisage Europe setting a price for all of its member states in the future, as opposed to what happens at present? Due to the fact that it is a large market, Europe could turn matters to its advantage and command the price.

Does the Commissioner believe that nuclear power stations have truly built-in decommissioning costs? Our experience relates more to the UK, where the British Government footed the bill in terms of such costs. Is it really a case of having a level playing field? I understand the attraction in the context of zero carbon emissions but does the Commissioner agree that the true cost of nuclear energy is being hidden?

I am surprised the Commissioner stated we need not be concerned about energy supply because we are at the end of the pipeline. In the event of a catastrophe, Ireland would be very isolated in trying to obtain a gas supplier if every other state was also scrambling for the small amount of gas that might be available.

I am conscious that the Commissioner is obliged to leave shortly. I will take a final question from Deputy Fitzpatrick.

I thank CommissionerPiebalgs. I wish to follow on from Deputy Fiona O'Malley's question on security of supply. The Russians recently put the squeeze on Ukraine in respect of its gas supply. As Deputy Fiona O'Malley and others stated, Ireland is at the other end of that pipeline. There is nothing to stop Russia putting the squeeze on every country between it and Ireland. What has the Commissioner done or what plans does he have to ensure security of energy supply to the European Union?

I am sure the Commissioner is used to questioning of this kind.

Commissioner Piebalgs

I am sometimes questioned in this way.

I am grateful to members because they have been very well behaved today.

Commissioner Piebalgs

On the question of Russia, it is important that Europe should have diverse suppliers. At this stage, we have three main suppliers, namely, Russia, Norway and Algeria. We need to increase this number and, in this regard, the Caspian Sea countries and the Nabuko pipeline could bring more gas to the Union. LNG terminals can bring gas from any part of the world. North Africa, the Middle East and countries in other regions have resources we could use. We intend to increase the number of suppliers to the EU market.

It is also important to maintain contact with the main producer or supplier countries. My country had contact with Russia during the difficult days and afterwards, and each of us learned from the experience. I believe that Russia is a reliable supplier and that it will never cut the supply. It is not only a matter of diversification and dialogue with the producer countries; we must also prepare for the day when, owing to very harsh winter conditions, for example, Shtockman may not be able to supply LNG to particular parts of the European Union. In such instances, we should have enough reserve gas in storage to supply our citizens. It is our duty to consider this matter.

Liberalisation provides the best result in markets, as I know having lived in an economy that had no liberalisation in any market. In some cases, there has been insufficient liberalisation. If one company dominates 80% or 90% of the market, it is difficult to speak of competition because it has not really been tried. We now have a good opportunity to liberalise the market further. We should not blame liberalisation, rather we should point to member states that are not tough enough in providing citizens with a real market.

The Union is not as weak as it seems. I had difficulty at the end of the year regarding the gas supply group. Some member states had never been involved in it, yet all 25 sent representatives. It was a question of what could be decided at very short notice. Based on my experience in this regard, I believe the Union is stronger than it sometimes seems. It is like a family — perhaps one of distant relatives — which takes real action when necessary. When circumstances are much more favourable, nations can then speak of their national champion, etc. When I was negotiating accession, I immediately felt the Union was very strong. I believe this perception was correct. I had difficulties with many of the details and the decision-making process when my country became a member, but I do not believe the Union is weak — it represents a great achievement.

The market will provide for price convergence. Prices will not be exactly the same owing to transmission costs but there should be much less divergence when there is a truly liberalised market. Price convergence is very high in the Nordic market. In one of today's newspapers, I saw a liberalisation scale from one to ten. Ireland scored 3.7, which was not best score in the European Union. Some countries' ratings were worse. Ireland's rating is all right, but it could have been much better.

As regards nuclear energy, in the past I could agree but nowadays all the costs are included in a nuclear power station. That is why I could never agree with the statement that nuclear power provides cheap energy. That is not true. It could be competitive in particular circumstances such as, for example, in Finland. The Finns are large consumers of energy and need less price fluctuation. They use all the resources they possess and have opted for nuclear power too as the source of their generation needs. It is definitely not cheap, but each nuclear power station built in my lifetime at least absorbs all of the costs involved in so far as these can be predicted. These include the cost of commissioning and of storing nuclear waste, even in cases where decisions on final waste storage have yet to be taken. Perhaps what I am saying is somewhat absurd, but at least the foreseen costs are being accommodated. That is why I believe nuclear power will be a long-term contributor but it is not a magical solution. From an economic viewpoint, it is one of the options, provided the political conditions are right, about which investors can think. To be honest, however, in many instances this will never happen. State aid is no longer possible, whereas in previous eras the position was different.

As regards our vision of the future, when I took up office, energy was not seen as a critical issue and the portfolio was not regarded as being of much importance. Matters have changed rapidly. The forecast for the end of 2004 was that there would be excess capacity of oil and that prices would drop but a major crisis developed. Matters have accelerated and the information we have does not allow us to make long-term predictions. There will inevitably be speculation as regards peaking. We should not panic, rather we should carry out our projections regardless of whether the oil price peak arrives tomorrow or in ten or 15 years. We should bear in mind that oil is a scarce resource and to burn it is not the best economic solution. We should devise policies in respect of energy efficiency and renewables, and examine new technologies as if the peak will occur tomorrow. However, we should not panic. The peak could happen in 20, 30 or 40 years, but that should not change our policy. If more urgent action is to be taken, we will take it. However, peaking per se does not necessarily mean that there will be no oil. There will be substantial amounts of oil available but the price will be higher. It means that technologies of today must be cost-efficient. There is nothing wrong with our forecasting. I am happy to carry out more long-term forecasting, and the information is available for making very good projections.

As regards the market, it has been efficient in the case of the Nordic countries, for example, where the overall conditions were in place to achieve very good results on a regional scale. Further research is needed, particularly as the results to which I refer sound fantastic and mean that there is no need to have reserve capacity if the wind does not arrive. It will be a great step forward if such technological issues can be resolved, and I believe this will happen. The information we are receiving is encouraging in this regard. We have funding to develop renewable energy, so we will go for it.

I am conscious that the Commissioner must be at the airport by 4.30 p.m. I had some questions but I will, perhaps, forward them, through the secretariat, to the Commissioner for his consideration. On behalf of the committee, I thank Commissioner Piebalgs for accepting our invitation to attend. I thank the clerk and his staff for arranging the meeting, which enabled the Commissioner to address the committee. It has been an important exercise in terms of direct engagement by a national parliament with the European Commission and the Commissioner for Energy on one of the most important aspects of the Irish and European economies. I look forward to finalising with my committee colleagues the energy report being compiled by our consultant, Mr. Pat Bell. We will forward an electronic version of the report to the Commissioner as soon as it is published.

Commissioner Piebalgs

I thank the Chairman. I was recently involved with COREPER which usually deals with external policy issues. One ambassador to the group noted that energy policy seemed to form a permanent part of its agenda, to which I replied that congratulations were due because they had decided to address an interesting and challenging matter. Even though we face a great challenge, we now understand we have to address it. I appreciate the invitation to appear before the committee and the work it is doing. I look forward to receiving its policy suggestions because there is a need for fresh ideas from member states.

The joint committee adjourned at 3.40 p.m. sine die.

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