We have a quorum but will suspend for ten minutes to allow the Minister of State time to join us.
Enhanced Transport and Mobility Support Options for People with Disabilities: Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth
Sitting suspended at 5.38 p.m. and resumed at 5.47 p.m.
The purpose of the meeting is to discuss the enhanced transport and mobility support options for people with disabilities. On behalf of the committee, I welcome the Minister of State at the Department of Health and the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth, Deputy Rabbitte. Joining us online are: Ms Deirdre Comiskey, principal officer in the disability children’s services unit; Ms Tara Smith, disability equality policy officer; and Mr. Donie O’Shea, equality policy officer, at the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth.
Before we begin, witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, and if they are directed to discontinue their remarks it is imperative that they do so. Of course, members are reminded of that long-standing parliamentary practice as well.
Without further ado, I call the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, to make her opening statement.
I welcome the opportunity to meet with the Joint Committee on Disability Matters today.
There is a complexity to the transport issues that I hear about because the transport needs of people with disabilities are as diverse as our disabled citizens themselves.
From the results of Census 2022, we know that approximately one in five persons in Ireland reported living with some form of disability. People with disabilities are not an isolated or discrete group – they are part of all of our lives and in all of our communities.
Although I am Minister of State with responsibility for disability, I do not have all of the answers on this issue, ownership of which extends significantly beyond my Department and my portfolio. Indeed, no single Ministry has the scope to solve all of the different transport and mobility challenges faced by people with disabilities across Ireland.
Every Government Department and every agency is responsible for implementing the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, UNCRPD, on a mainstream-first basis. Mainstreaming involves organisations involved in the delivery of mainstream services, including transport supports, to actively incorporate the needs of disabled people in service delivery and policy-making processes. The needs of people with disabilities cannot and should not become separated in silos within Departments, or be consigned solely to a specific Department in Government.
That is not mainstreaming; it is segregation.
There is significant work ahead of us to develop properly joined-up and co-ordinated improvements and sustainable solutions. In the first instance, this needs to involve ever more accessible public transport options. The Minister for Transport has made substantial improvements in this regard. For example, new infrastructure and services are fully accessible and older legacy infrastructure and facilities are being retrofitted through the public transport accessibility retrofit programme. Disabled people are supported to travel independently on the public transport network through initiatives such as the Just a Minute, JAM, card, the provision of disability awareness training to public transport staff, and through the travel assist scheme.
The pilot initiative between the NTA, Local Link and the HSE in Leitrim is a good example of how joined-up services can work for the benefit of everyone who uses them. The revised public transport network in Leitrim is designed to meet the needs of mainstream public transport users as well as the transport needs of passengers with disabilities and those accessing non-emergency healthcare services in the county. The Leitrim example is also important as it shows that solutions can be found that work in more rural parts of the country. As a Minister of State from a rural constituency, I am acutely aware that accessibility issues in Dublin can vary greatly from those in Athenry, for example. It is not a one-size-fits-all approach that is required and this needs to be considered by all Departments.
Beyond public transport, we also need to broaden the range of community-based alternative transport options for people with disabilities who require more targeted supports. The Minister for Rural and Community Development operates a number of relevant schemes, such as the community services programme and the CLÁR programme, which have yielded positive examples of community-based and door-to-door transport and mobility supports that we ought to learn from and build upon.
My priority at present is to develop a new national disability strategy to succeed the national disability inclusion strategy, NDIS, and fulfil a commitment in the programme for Government to co-ordinate a plan for the implementation of the UNCRPD going forward. The recommendations made by the NDIS transport working group are critically important in helping us to understand the way in which this issue can be addressed through the new national disability strategy. As I see it, an absolute key flank of this strategy will be transport. The transport working group recommended that we need more evidence of need and of gaps in our existing landscape of supports. Evidence is absolutely crucial to developing a holistic and joined-up system of needs-based supports. The group also recommended that a new coherent cross-government policy framework should be established. This is badly needed but will take time and shared resourcing across government to achieve. Any new supports will need to be designed in partnership with disabled people themselves, which again will take a certain amount of time. We need to get behind the group’s proposals in the context of developing the new national disability strategy.
In calling on my colleagues in the Government to lean in to the necessary next steps within their own areas of responsibility, I am of course conscious of the legacy schemes that are now within my own Department’s responsibilities following the transfer of functions from the Department of Health earlier this year. Regarding the mobility allowance, I have tried since 2021 to resolve this issue but I have found it difficult to develop a new, reformed scheme that I believe would support the people it needs to. The difficulty lies in what eligibility criteria would underpin such a scheme. I do not want to find myself back in front of this committee explaining why I have excluded a certain cohort. Getting the design and balance right to ensure the longevity of any new support is a genuine challenge, and it would undoubtedly include significant and long-term commitments from Exchequer funds. It must also be delivered in the context of co-ordinated and joined-up supports, which as I mentioned will be progressed in partnership with other Departments and wider stakeholders. I do not have a solution yet to this issue, and I cannot address the challenge alone, but I can assure the committee that I am working on it.
I am also aware that there are questions related to transport to day services that my Department provides funding to through the HSE. Ad hoc arrangements have developed over time in relation to transport to and from day services. I recognise that these arrangements need to be considered more fully in the context of a holistic and joined-up approach to transport and mobility supports going forward. The Leitrim pilot is a fantastic example of an approach being delivered jointly by the HSE and the NTA and it is something I would like to see rolled out more broadly.
I am in full agreement with the transport working group’s recommendation that we need to move beyond tweaking the transport and mobility supports currently in place; supports that were developed at a time when there was little or no accessible transport available for people with disabilities and at a time when the medical rather than social model of disability guided our actions. I am also mindful of the recommendations of the Department of Social Protection’s cost of disability report, which was very clear in saying that supports need to be targeted in order to be effective and progressed at whole-of-government level.
There is a real and clear opportunity to address transport and mobility issues in the context of the new national disability strategy, which I will be seeking to advance on an explicitly mainstream-first basis. I look forward to working with my colleagues in government, and indeed with Deputies and Senators here today, on delivering an ambitious strategy that embraces the principle of mainstreaming and delivers meaningful, positive changes in the lives of people with disabilities. Consultations with people with disabilities and their representative organisations are a critical part of this work and this committee will see that process advance over the coming weeks and months. I look forward to today’s discussion.
I thank the Minister of State. Without further ado, I call on Deputy Murnane O'Connor.
I thank the Minister of State and very much welcome her opening statement. I was glad she said she agrees with the transport working group's report and the acknowledgment of inequality of access to transport to disability services, particularly day services. The report states, "Access to such transport should be standardised, but ... such provision does not necessarily fall within the responsibilities of the Department of Health". The Minister of State herself said that it is within the different Departments. This is a huge issue. When you try to get one lead Department but it falls under all different Departments, no one seems to take full responsibility for it. That is when there seems to be a massive issue because one Department will say it is not in that Department and not in this Department or not in their Department and then you are going back around. There is no accountability. I know how committed the Minister of State is to trying to solve this. The first thing I ask her to do is work on this and just provide one lead role in a Department that we can work from. That is the first thing.
I also want to bring up my own area in Carlow. In my local area there are a lot of people who live quite rurally. The service does not have Garda-vetted and trained drivers. Garda vetting is a huge issue. There are also issues with-----
I am sorry Deputy but a vote has been called in the Dáil. That means we have to suspend because the main witness has to go to the Dáil Chamber as well. Normally the Senators could continue the meeting but unfortunately, on this occasion we cannot do that. We will have to suspend until the vote is over. My apologies.
Sitting suspended at 5.59 p.m. and resumed at 6.24 p.m.
We are resuming the meeting. Deputy Murnane O'Connor was in full flow.
In my local area - I have to mention Carlow again - if someone lives in a quite rural area and the service does not have Garda-vetted and trained drivers, there is no plan B. In County Carlow, there some very rural areas. Has the Department ever explored having a volunteer system whereby someone with an accessible vehicle would be able to assist and be available on a part-time basis, perhaps once a week? For all the world, it is like meals on wheels. In Carlow, we have many meals on wheels services that people volunteer to do. Do we need to look at this as well for transport?
A submission that was made in respect of the report highlighted that people with disabilities who have a long-term illness card but not a medical card - I have a major issue with that - and who do not receive any payment from the Department of Social Protection should have access to the free travel scheme. Can the Minister of State see potential to extend the free travel scheme in this regard, particularly as there needs to be access to the scheme for those people? The Minister of State is aware of epilepsy as well. I met a group that is canvassing on this for those with epilepsy. I am wondering what scope there is for that.
On one or two personal stories, I am mindful that I would have always brought this up when it comes to transport. Bagenalstown is part of my constituency. Irish Rail left the train station there unmanned. On behalf of people with wheelchairs, we protested for a day. We stood there. Wheelchair users or people with disabilities could not use toilet facilities and they found it very hard to get on the train without that bit of support. That is happening across the country. Irish Rail seems to be closing down the smaller train stations. As the Minister of State said, and I totally agree, that is not joined-up thinking. The wheelchair users to whom I spoke were devastated that this facility that they had was taken from them.
Today, I visited the Carlow branch of the Irish Wheelchair Association, which is an excellent association. As the Minister of State will be aware, they are going out on strike on 17 October with section 39 organisations. Hand on heart, I can only say that section 39 organisations do not want to be doing this. They really do not, but they have no choice. I spoke to some of the users in the Irish Wheelchair Association and they tell me that their concern is that they will have no transport that day to get to the facility and have their normal routine. As I said, I totally understand where the section 39 organisations are coming from. I have no issue with that, but I am wondering how do we look at this. What can we do to support and help these? From speaking to some of the lovely people there, I am aware that the Irish Wheelchair Association branch in Carlow is like a home to them. They go in there a few days a week. They have a social aspect. They become a big family. I am wondering what can we do.
When I was there at the meeting today, they were telling me that many of their services have been reduced, also due to bus transport. They cannot recruit people to drive the buses. There seem to be issues across the country with this.
There are a good few questions there on which I want to know whether the Minister of State can come back to me. I again welcome her opening statement, particularly where it refers to the results from Census 2022 that one in five people in Ireland reported living with some form of a disability. We need to step up here.
The other issue I want the Minister of State's commitment on, and she has given it there, is the mobility allowance. I have had so many people on to me about that. I note the Minister of State addressed it here and is saying that she is working on it. That is another issue for me.
I am aware that the Minister of State is working on a new national disability strategy. That will be vital. The Minister of State faces huge challenges. We need a lot more funding, I can say, for the people in County Carlow who I represent, the work that they do and the amount of people who are using the services that feel they need more.
Even this is another one now. I brought this up again because I am so passionate about it. I had a family come to me a few weeks ago. This man wanted to apply for a hackney licence. Like that, Carlow County Council said "Yes, no problem." Therefore, I went to the NTA and it said "No."
This particular man lives in rural Carlow and he services a lot of people with a disability or who may not be mobile. They have no other form of transport. We are in rural Ireland; we have no transport. What can we do to get that joined-up thinking when we know we need it? Carlow County Council said we needed it, yet we are told we do not need it. I thank the representatives for their opening statements. I know their commitment.
I thank the Cathaoirleach for letting me back in again. The Deputy started with day services and there is a huge issue there. It is not properly mapped or quantified and it is hit and miss. Going forward, we should start with the young people who need to avail of New Directions, our new day service school leavers programme for young people. It is something I am trying to get over the line and it is a funding issue needless to say, but we should ensure that every one of the 1.700 young people who come on board have access to the transport piece as part of their package. It should not be ad hoc or at the gift of whoever campaigns, makes the loudest noise, is the most rural, or whatever. It should be just standardised so that when you are a parent and your young person is part of the school leavers programme, you know you can avail of it. That is one of the reasons I have got really into understanding how much money is spent on transport within the HSE. It is in excess of €40 million. We are spending money on transport. It is not like the HSE does not spend money on transport. I refer to the wonderful work Mr. O'Shea did in compiling the report we did on transport. We also see we spent €67 million on the primary medical certificate and another €10 million on the fuel allowance that goes along with it. We can see money is being spent on transport but it is being spent ad hoc everywhere. Returning to the Deputy's question, there needs to be a standardised approach, at least as a basis going forward, that all school leavers would have access to the transport at a minimum. It should be part of enabling them to participate in either the New Directions or as part of the school leavers programme. It should be built into the training scheme so that they can live independently in their communities as best they can. I look at Senator Clonan when I also take into consideration that this is packaged with the personal assistant, PA, support to enable a person to access that. We should be looking at that in the round and looking at everybody as an individual in order to meet their needs.
The Deputy also spoke about Garda vetting. That is not an issue only we have a problem with; it is right across the board. She spoke about bus drivers and where the deficits are there. I would love to say it is only within disability services but that lack of access to resources is right across a number of Departments. However, there are other people there who can make decisions either within the Department of Justice or in the Department of Transport in conjunction with the NTA. To be honest, the county council is quite right in saying it needs more rural hackney licensed vehicles that would be wheelchair and everything accessible but the NTA says it gives out one per county. That does not meet the need at all. There needs to be that acknowledgment too. I know in my area at home, and Deputy Canney's area of Athenry, I think it is one licence that is allowed in that area. It is not enough by any means. It may be only one allowed in the county. Definitely in east Galway, I only know of one in existence. Therefore, we need to have many more available and on stream and normalise this.
On the free travel scheme, this falls under the remit of the Minister, Deputy Humphreys I will not speak for her but I will talk to the mobility allowance scheme which falls under my own remit. I have an issue with that particular scheme. I will invite Mr. O'Shea in to speak on this. There are two sides to it. The scheme as we had it in its entirety was not functioning correctly because it did not meet the equality Act. At the same time, what we have done by cutting it in 2013 is removed people's opportunity to be included. It is an allowance of €208 a month. If you were living in rural Ireland and trying to hire those taxis, that money went towards a very valuable resource and actually gave you your independence. There is that piece. One of the reasons I convened the working group was to see what mechanisms we could put in place and what I could present to be able to stretch a larger envelope within a budget. People feel very hurt by the removal of that scheme. They feel hurt and disenfranchised and that was one reason we did the work on it. I have now done that work on it. An ask has gone. It is not a good day to ask me how the money is going. It is one of those things. We are trying to reinstate it. I ask Mr. O'Shea to come in on this because looking at it through the lens of why it was not working in the beginning is very important. We have to look at it in its entirely under the UNCRPD going forward.
Mr. Donie O'Shea
I thank the Minister of State. There are a number of issues, as the Deputy quite rightly pointed out. One is the fragmentation that has occurred within the area of transport for people with disabilities. At various stages, schemes were introduced in the country, from the motorised transport grant to the mobility allowance. These date back to 1968 and 1979, respectively. Things have changed in the country since then. Even the definitions and the criteria that are applied to those schemes are very narrow and perhaps need to be broadened in instances where people have a transport need that cannot be fulfilled by public transport alone. In looking at that, we need to look at it in the round. One of the things that came up in the transport working group was the need to look at the whole architecture of transport provision for people with disabilities. If we look at each of these pieces in isolation, it will not be sustainable going forward. There are difficulties with the mobility allowance in that it is for a certain cohort and others are excluded from that. We need to look at it in terms of how we target the resources towards the individual's needs and to get at that, a certain amount of mapping needs to take place. The NTA, for instance, has done certain mapping in certain areas in rural communities to see what transport is available in certain counties. Some of these have historically been funded through charity, through the HSE and through a whole variety of ways. Going forward, we need to look at it in the round, see what is available and how that can be better used, where are the gaps, and what are the individual needs of people with disabilities living in those areas. There is a piece of substantial evidence gathering work that needs to be done. Similarly, there needs to be a much more comprehensive look at transport, from public transport to the development of community-based transport, and providing individual transport solutions for some people who cannot avail of either of these. That needs to be looked at quite critically. We need to look at the spend that is going on transport and see how best we can provide that differently. That is the big issue we are facing all along because we cannot keep going and fixing this piece over here and not the broader issue. It is not only about developing a new policy, it is developing an implementation plan which is co-ordinated, integrated and accountable. It is ridiculous to have an accessible toilet in a train station that is locked and that the people who require it cannot access it. I am not going back years but I will give an example. Many moons ago, when there were very few public assessable toilets, I remember the National Rehabilitation Board were custodians of keys for individuals, disabled people who required a key. They got a key and there was a universal lock on the toilets so that the people who needed them could use them. These toilets were few and far between around the country in those days.
The key was available so that the person who needed it could use it. One issue is the investment in accessibility. The other issue is how to maintain that accessibility. For the person with a disability, any break in the personal journey renders that journey inaccessible for them. One can have transport accessibility but if the footpath is dug up, and a person cannot get past that, even though they are capable of using public transport, it renders it inaccessible.
This involves many player from local authorities, to transport providers, to rural community links; all of those things. There is a need for some sort of co-ordinated mechanism which the Deputy has pointed to. That is a critical piece which needs to be addressed because otherwise one will go around and people will say that they are only responsible for this element of it and are not responsible for that element. At the end of the day, the person with the disability needs to get from A to B.
I thank the Minister of State for being here with us in what I can imagine is an especially busy week for her in the run-up to the budget. All on this committee hope that she will get a very good budget allocation because the people we speak about so regularly on this committee deserve that.
The NTA appeared before the committee last week and it gave a very positive update on much of the progress which had been made. We know that a great deal more needs to be done in this area but much progress is being made. This engagement was specifically in respect of DARTs, trains and additional carriages coming in. It also covered the more simple things such as the new raised platforms at bus stops as opposed to requiring ramps when accessing buses. These are all positives, in particular, in and around our city centre. We know that a great deal more needs to be done. Lucan Disability Action Group provides very specialised wheelchair-accessible transportation in my community, is telling us this all the time. Caroline Brady and her team there work quite closely with the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth.
Is the eligibility criteria for the mobility allowance the only issue, with regard to the Minister of State's statement? My second question - I understand it is not necessarily within the Minister of State's remit but it would be remiss of us not to raise it in this forum - is to ask about the inadequacy of transport for students with additional needs getting to school. I have a case on my desk at present where a child has been sanctioned a month ago and still had received nothing from Bus Éireann.
Another issue is not necessarily specific to this topic but is definitely in the Minister of State's area and it comes up again and again at this committee. This is the need to support people with disabilities who want to return or enter into the workforce and those who want to become entrepreneurs and who want to do so without that cliff edge we hear so much talk about with regard to the supports that are already provided to them. We know that having a disability means that a person has more costs. If we are to discourage anybody in any way from working, that is a great shame. In respect of my final question there, has the Minister of State had any asks with respect to the upcoming budget or is there anything that she could shed light on - not to pre-empt what will happen next week - with regard to that specific issue? I thank the Chair.
I will start with the last question first. In recent weeks I have met community groups because sometimes I look at local links. I have looked at local links outside in Leitrim, Carlow, and at what they are proposing in the caring side of things. I have also looked at and met - the Deputy mentioned the Lucan group -Accessible Community Transport Southside, ACTS, and there has been a meeting with Vantastic. These are urban, are here in Dublin and provide an invaluable service. If I was to kite fly in the morning and to look for funding I would say that we certainly need to upgrade their buses because I do not believe that they can keep going at the rate they are doing now. We need to put them on a sustainable footing.
By no manner or means is that all within my gift but these services need to be put on a sustainable footing. I do not think that rolling from one dormant account funding to another is how one puts ACTS, which has so many services, the Lucan group and Vantastic, on a sustainable footing in the hope that there will be a piece of CLÁR funding coming in and they will get a new bus. One bus, when these groups very much need 21 buses, does not solve it. They have the design where they can actually accommodate four wheelchair users and their buddies. They can go out and it can be the normal way you would go about your daily life. You can bring your friends and go to the cinema. This is everything the rest of us can do but you cannot do it at the moment if you are to hire a taxi, because you will then have to wait until your other buddy gets the next taxi which is also wheelchair accessible.
That means that one provides funding on a sustainable footing, where the groups have the expertise and the design, and their design is integrated as part of the overall framework or national plan within the NTA and expanded to the community. One then looks at the point Mr. O'Shea has spoken of, where we have the gaps at the top of the nodes and at the end. That is what is needed because there are many dependent people in the urban areas where we have these groups. That is a sustainable footing. These groups have looked to my Department to come up with €750,000, the Department of Health to come up with €750,000 and the Department of Transport likewise. That would split it three ways because then there is an acknowledgement that there is a role for transport, for health and a role for "the rights of", which is the lens I look through, not the fact that a person has a disability but the rights of a person to participate in the community. That is their ask and that will enable their fleet to be redone. That is the funding ask I would have at this minute.
I believe that Mr. O'Shea's piece with regard to the mapping is essential. We have a great deal of work going on here with BusConnects, with our transport policy, in the Department of Housing, Local Government, and Heritage and in the Department of Transport with regard to how we are designing our infrastructure. That includes our bus shelters, dropped kerbs, and everything else, but one can only map that if one has the whole picture as to what the current need is and the need going forward. One cannot do that on an ad hoc basis. It might be good in Galway but bad in Cork and one cannot have it like that; it has to be a proper standard. That is universal design in the environment. We are talking about where the Departments of Transport and the Environment, Climate and Communications need to come together on that piece. I am quite passionate about that because if it is universally designed, we do not ever need to retrofit it again because it has met the needs of all.
I completely take on board of what Deputy Higgins is saying about school transport. We have more issues of that this year than we have had in any year, from what I can hear. It is, of course, a priority for the Department of Education to ensure that everybody has access to schools but, predominantly, also, for persons with additional needs. There is quite a number there which are still not fulfilled and I will take that on board from today's meeting.
I am glad the NTA attended the committee and that it had a positive story for it but if the committee members were me every morning when I turn on my Twitter, I have to refer to the Access for All group, where the lifts are not working, whether it is nine or 11 lifts which are not working this morning. Sometimes, it may not be the lift but it may be the person being available to give the assistance to a person, or the signage may not have been working. It is not all perfect. A great deal of positive work is going on but for the individual user, and looking at the position on an individual basis, if that lift does not work, one cannot go to education or employment. The infrastructure has to be connected, working and functional because a person in a wheelchair or with a mobility need cannot run up that stairs to catch the next DART. That is the reality and impact of it. When we talk about employment and returning to employment, we have to ensure that the person has that connectivity piece on it.
I thank the Minister of State and Mr. O'Shea for his input.
I have a question about people with disabilities purchasing a vehicle with that person being the driver of that vehicle. There is a repayment where they can reclaim the VAT and the vehicle registration tax, VRT. This can amount to €10,000 to €16,000 approximately, or somewhere in that region. We have many electric vehicles coming on stream now where conversions will have to take place, together with a move in a different direction for many of these people because these vehicles will no longer be acceptable, over time. Will there be a mechanism in place which can help people in this situation besides looking for VAT and the VRT provisions, because that is just not enough?
There are also insurance issues thrown in on top of that.
Many of these vehicles are in €30,000 to €40,000 range and that is beyond many people who have disabilities. They are just on disability allowance. Even though someone may be purchasing it on their behalf, it will be a major problem going forward.
The Minister of State mentioned the mobility allowance but it has been suspended since 2013. It has been ten years. Realistically, it does not make sense. We were told that a transport support scheme would be put in place, or that officials are looking at putting one in place. Surely, though, it could not take that long to do this. That is what is bugging me. It is a matter of putting an alternative in place. I know that the Minister of State said that there are lots of players and lots of factors have to be taken into account. I understand that, but the time period has been far too long. I just think it is wrong.
Can she speak to introducing a mechanism for co-operation as well as a working partnership between the local authorities, transport providers and, of course, people with disabilities, DPOs or otherwise? It is important that everyone pulls together so we can see what we are doing. The Minister of State mentioned the travel assistance scheme, which is run by Dublin Bus. She said that she thought this could be rolled out nationally. Would this include, for example, people going to the North who might have family or health reasons to travel there? Will there be an element of North-South coverage? I am curious about that.
I want to ask about the way people have been means-tested and how they have been asked to go in to get re-tested. Disabilities are for life and they do not change. I will give the Minister of State an example. I know a person who has schizoaffective disorder and they wanted to retest that person. In God's name, retesting someone who has such a serious condition is absolutely appalling. I have encountered this in other cases. I know it is slightly off the topic of transport, but many of these people are driving, whether we like it or not, but they have a disability. That area needs to be looked at. Disabilities are for life. They should not be means-tested. That is where we are going wrong. If a person is deemed to have a disability, that should be it. It should not matter who else in the house is earning money, and that is the way it should be.
I thank the Deputy for his questions. I will start by saying that it is also bugging me that the issue of the mobility allowance has been going on for ten years.
Yes.
Mr. O’Shea's earlier response was that we have come a long way in understanding disability and in understanding the broad breadth of disability. However, the fear is that the different schemes that have been thought up did not go far enough. That is where it is at. There is the fear that you could actually exclude people. Sometimes, when trying to find perfection, it comes at the cost of doing nothing at all. That may be the space we are in as well. I will leave it at that. Progress has to be made in that space and there is no denying whatsoever; it has gone on for far too long.
Deputy Ellis asked about the North-South coverage. At the moment, the service is provided in Dublin and it has been extended to Cork and Limerick. It is to be rolled out nationally. Free travel also applies North and South. I assume that this will operate on the same basis.
The next question was about consultations. We can do nothing here unless we have consultations with persons who have lived experience, people with disabilities and DPOs. It is vital that we have that consultation. That is the consultation that is required for all pieces of the joined-up thinking approach. That has been lacking and far too much siloing has been done within Departments. There has not been enough cross-government or cross-Department work done to find the solutions and to ensure that there is complete inclusion and pathways for persons with disabilities.
The Deputy asked about EVs. The disabled drivers and disabled passengers scheme currently supports approximately 5,800 people at a cost of €62 million. It is my understanding that applicants are not precluded on the basis that they do or do not have an EV. However, I hear what the Deputy is saying, which is that the cost of electric-----
It is a matter of the price.
Absolutely. I totally take that on board. I will discuss this with the Minister for Finance. The disabled drivers scheme sits completely with the Department of Finance. To be honest with the Deputy, at a time we want to promote a green agenda, we must include all aspects to ensure it happens.
I thank the Minister of State and her officials for coming before the committee. They are very welcome. I must apologise for missing the beginning of the meeting. I had a timetable clash so I cannot be everywhere at the same time.
I have emphasised in a number of Dáil contributions the need to stop disabling disabled people further in our built environment. The Minister of State mentioned that she had personal connections with people with disabilities and she very much understands the importance that the built environment has on accessibility. I know she is looking at how best to progress the disabled drivers and disabled passengers scheme and providing tax reliefs linked to buying and using specially constructed or adapted vehicles. Many people with disabilities do not, cannot or do not want to drive. I know people who have MS and early-onset Parkinson’s, and they actually find it easier to cycle than to walk. Will the Minister of State consider a fund to be made available to people with disabilities for e-bikes and e-trikes? These offer more balance to people with disabilities, as do e-cargo bikes. We currently have the bike-to-work scheme, but it is limited and it is not available to people outside of employment, sole traders, or people who are working in the home. I ask the Minister of State to, therefore, consider a funding scheme for people to purchase these kinds of bikes for adapting wheelchairs as well into electric trikes. This would not be through a medical model but rather to give people with disabilities their right to independence in mobility.
I thank the Deputy. I am already doing it. It was something I took on board two years ago when I came into the Department, when we building a lot of greenways and expanding the offerings. I felt it was wrong that we were not including people with disabilities and that we were not giving them that same opportunity to engage. We did this by understanding universal design. This includes how, for example, if gates are not the right width, it will prevent people in wheelchairs from accessing our greenways. The conversation came from there. I met with a group called Variety, which made a fantastic presentation to the Department of Children, Disability, Equality Integration. I had not moved to it yet at that time. They gave a presentation to the former Department of Children, Disability, Equality and Integration. I did not have any money in that budget so I asked the Minister for Transport, Deputy Éamon Ryan, for a few pounds and he partnered with me. We also did research on it with the Royal College of Surgeons Ireland, RSCI, to find the outcomes for people. This included putting a chair on the bike, as well as allowing children who have slow development delays to access the trike. There were, therefore, trikes and mobility bikes for people who might never have had the experience of having the wind in their hair on a greenway. We renewed that this year and we increased our funding. Initially, I had to partner on this and I think the Minister, Deputy Ryan, provided approximately €75,000. Last year, I came up with €375,000. We have extended the scheme. I genuinely do believe that more people would avail of that if we could completely broaden it.
It is the people who are aware of it who are able to access it and to engage with Variety. The RCSI report and study on it were phenomenal. It is not a rural or urban issue; it is an access-for-all opportunity. There is a lot in it as regards the trikes and cargo bikes and looking at a mechanism. As regards the relationship, it was my first time working cross-departmentally. We worked with the Minister for Transport on that and it gave us phenomenal opportunity. I believe there are opportunities there to work with other Departments if I cannot find the funding. Taking the research out of it, the likes of the RCSI gave us a really strong footing in that when I went back the next time, the Department of Health was able to come on board.
I thank the Minister of State for all she has done. She really led on this and has been very creative, innovative and serious about it. Genuinely, she is a breath of fresh air in her role, and I wish her well and ask her keep up the good work. More money for these schemes would be great.
Absolutely.
I call Senator McGreehan.
The Minister of State, Ms Smith and Mr. O'Shea are very welcome to the committee. We have spoken about transport issues quite often. They come across our desks, as do the barriers that are put in front of people. They have no access to transport, or no adequate transport. Perhaps I differ from some members here. I was not so optimistic last week when we met the NTA. I had a lot of questions about many issues that were not really answered. The Minister of State cannot answer them either because she is the Minister of State with responsibility for disability services within a certain Department.
My question to her goes to the vein of what this committee is about, that is, the implementation of the UNCRPD. She sits in the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth, the lead Department for the UNCRPD. I will not ask her the week before the budget to rate the co-operation between the various Departments but it would be really interesting to see if she were able to put a score on that, as Minister of State with responsibility for disabilities, or to pitch Departments against one another. It is a decade since the Department of Finance ceased the disabled drivers scheme - a decade of disabled people and families not being able to access cars. We see the Departments of Health and Transport being absolutely ableist in so many ways. There are laws to ensure that contractors must keep roads accessible, and they do not implement them. The NTA, under the Department of Transport, has the authority to make private operators, under their licensing, have disabled access, and it has not implemented that once. It is only thinking about it. Yet all these issues come to the Minister of State's door.
To go a few steps back on that, has the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform been part of the discussion about providing those transport supports? It is all down to money and putting in the actions. When the Minister of State's Department talks to the NTA, does the latter come back with the same answers it came back to us with? It says it is adequate and within the limit, but it actually does not work for people with disabilities. Exactly as Mr. O'Shea said earlier, we may have access to here but there is no way we can get to there. We have inaccessible roads and footpaths, and people are just barred into their homes.
I could go on. I wish the Minister of State the very best of luck with her budget negotiations. We are all here rooting for her because we really need a disability budget. The sad thing is that the Department does not have control of all the stuff that affects our family and friends with disabilities.
I am slow to intervene, but it might be prudent not to raise the Departments this week. I will leave that to the judgment of the Minister of State.
To be honest, there is no Department that does not have an open door to me and no Department that does not have a good listening ear. I often describe it as follows, however. When you go to your GP, do you want pillow talk or do you want to be cured? I would like the Departments to provide cures and to work with me. A listening ear is great, and empathy and understanding are fantastic, but where can I change this? It is money and an understanding I need. If members take anything away from what I am saying, it is that I believe Ministers open their doors, and they are fantastic, but I need everybody to understand universal design within their Departments and the awareness of it. Things cannot be done in a silo of misunderstanding. I did not understand what universal design was when I became Minister of State with responsibility for disabilities. I never knew what it was. It was Deputy Neasa Hourigan who explained to me what universal design was and the different levels of it. I am put to task with the responsibility for it. While all Departments have disability within their remit, whether it be transport, local government or public expenditure - and I will comment on public expenditure in a minute - they all need to know how it has to operate, and it has to work for persons with a disability in their environment. I do not think that level of understanding is there to the level it should be. Empathy is great, but I cannot change this. Around this time every year, I write to every Department and ask it to ensure that it disability-proofs its budget. At least by doing that I am drawing attention to the matter. I have done that since I became Minister of State. Mr. Noel Byrne writes the same letter every year. Not every Minister responds to it; a few do. I am sure that after today's session I will get a great response, but it is a matter of that understanding.
As regards public expenditure, and I say the following to anybody who does sums. It is people I deal with, not numbers. They have names and they have dependants. When I negotiate or talk about budgets, I am talking about people. They are not numbers. I will leave it at that.
I am not sure how to describe that response, whether it was a diplomatic or whatever else.
I call Senator Clonan.
I thank the Minister of State and her officials for coming in. I apologise I was not here earlier. I was at the CHI, Temple Street, debate in the Seanad with the Minister, Deputy Donnelly.
I share the sentiments that have been expressed here about the Minister of State's absolute commitment to the portfolio and her attempts to try to bring that cohesion and co-ordination into things. It reminded me of 2011 after the crash. That was when my family first really began to try to engage with Departments to try to advocate for services and supports, which had just disappeared. Subsequently, I remember the first time we got through to the then Minister for Health, Deputy Varadkar. He is now the Taoiseach. We never actually got to speak to the Minister himself but we did get to speak to his public services team. They were not politically appointed people; they were very senior civil servants in the Department of Health. I got through to one of those individuals. Now, I grew up in Finglas and I was in the Army for 12 years so I know what rough is, and this fella was dog-rough. He said to me, "What do you want? Do you want to jump the queue?" I asked him why he was being so hostile and rude to me. I said to him, "I am a fellow public servant and I am just a parent who is anxious about a child." He said, "Oh, so we are best buddies now, are we?" I remember being really shocked at the level of hostility and pushback to even the most routine inquiry about a disability issue.
In 2016 the Government appointed Finian McGrath as Minister of State with responsibility for disabilities. I would say that marked a very noticeable change. From around that time when we interacted with different Departments it went from hostility to the beginning of what the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, has described as the 'listening ear'. The Minister of State said she wanted action. Shortly after she was appointed in 2020, she very kindly met me in the Merrion Inn - I had never been there before - and I very much got the sense that she was somebody who wanted to do something. I want to put that on the record. Even though we often lament the situation that confronts people with disabilities, I think we are moving in the right direction. Fundamentally, it has to be a fundamental human rights issue. That has to enter the narrative. As the Minister of State said, there has to be a focus on people, not figures.
Regarding toilets and the universal key mentioned by Mr. O'Shea, we have had so many experiences of disabled toilets as a family. When we go into one disabled toilet in July, there will be a huge Santa Claus in the corner because that is where it is stored during the year. It is a mixed bag. Will the changing places campaign be useful? We need to get beyond a slightly larger bathroom with the grip rails and the emergency string. We actually need somewhere for somebody like my son to lay them out and change them. Could the committee ask the head of estates in Leinster House to put a changing places toilet onto the campus here in the lifetime of this Government? A student started as an intern this week from Technological University Dublin who is a wheelchair user and who I imagine might need that sort of support. Certainly, my son who comes in and out of here regularly because he is on my team would need it. We should show an example here.
I am delighted the Minister of State spoke to Accessible Community Transport Southside, ACTS, Vantastic and the Lucan Disability Group because they have all come to meet me separately and their main asks were to have a predictable funding stream.
Absolutely.
I thank the Minister of State for addressing that point. On the point raised by Deputy Ellis, there are issues with electric vehicles and the way in which the battery and floor of the vehicle cannot be interfered with. It is not just about the tax incentives and the refunds-----
The mechanics.
-----because there are also structural issues with electric vehicles that make it difficult. That is something we will have to look at.
I was very heartened to see how the Minister, Deputy Michael McGrath, responded to Leigh Gath and the issue she had in importing a vehicle which could only be modified in London. I had the opportunity at the national commemoration in Cork to thank the Minister, Deputy Michael McGrath, for the intervention he undertook. I said to him, "Thanks very much for doing that" and he said, "It was the right thing to do - we had to do it". Again, that is evidence of a growing awareness in all of Government that this is a fundamental human rights issue. I took great comfort and encouragement from that.
I have a question for Mr. O'Shea about the evidence-based project he is undertaking. I thank him for all the work he did in preparing the report. Has he identified a jurisdiction - no pressure now - that does this patchwork quilt of communication requirements well, or in a way that is heading towards well? Is there a jurisdiction within the European Union or elsewhere that would be a good model of practice in that regard?
Senator McGreehan asked the Minister of State about scorecards. I know the Chair advised her not to comment on that before the budget. We had the National Disability Authority, NDA, and the disability stakeholder group in. They have published reports that show a sluggishness - the term they use is "foot dragging" - on the part of many Departments. Both of the reports were quite poor. I wonder if the Minister of State thinks that if we fully ratify the UN convention, including the optional protocol, rather than waiting for us to satisfy the requirements of the UNCRPD as set out in the programme for Government, it might be a useful sort of carrot - I do not want to say "stick" - to compel Departments. I know the Minister of State has had personal experience of agents of the State who refuse to do what she asks them to do. I asked the Taoiseach last week when he came into the Seanad if he would make a commitment to fully ratifying the convention and I believe he said he would look into it. Will the Minister of State encourage him?
I will start with the last question. The Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, has led the way in asking for the scoping exercise to be undertaken. He can give some evidence to the Taoiseach that will answer the sorts of questions the Senator asked. Clearly the NDA does phenomenal work and it says there is "foot dragging". What I have found is that when I have chaired certain reports or certain groupings, all Departments attend. If they do not, we call it out very clearly. When this particular report on transport was being done, all Departments, including the Departments of Finance and Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform, attended. To be quite honest with the Senator, unless those Departments attend such meetings, they are fruitless because everything comes at a cost. We can have all the talk in the world and we can all be well intentioned but unless there is a clear understanding that there will be a cost element to it, and unless they are at the table as part of the development of the report, we are at nothing. That is because we are coming from such a low base. I am saying that as Minister of State, from my perspective within disabilities, but I am not the only one who is saying we are coming from a low base. I think all Departments with a disability approach recognise that we are coming from such a low base. The experience we had in doing the transport report has been helpful. I refer to what was set out, to the involvement and acknowledgement piece and to the costings on it. I understand what the NDA is saying about foot dragging. While I see disability as the priority, we need to get to the space where every Department sees the person-first approach to disabilities as its priority.
I could not agree more about changing places. We should lead by example. It should be no different from doing the autism awareness training in Leinster House. We should have a changing places facility within Leinster House. To be very fair to the Leader of the Seanad and the Ceann Comhairle, we could not have two more approachable people to go to ask for consideration for this matter to be put before the petitions committee or the relevant committee. I think Deputy Murnane O'Connor sits on the committee, so we are halfway there already.
I was in Semple Stadium recently opening a new changing places facility that we funded under the disability, participation and awareness fund. It was the first time we created funding within the Department. My first budget ever was €2.5 million and we gave that funding to the local authorities to see if they could spend all of it. Approximately €80,000 to €100,000 was given to each local authority, for example to ensure the footpath went to where the bus stop was in accordance with universal design. Some local authorities spent it on awareness training for their staff, which was not what I was expecting it to be spent on, but that is where they spent it. Others spent it on changing places facilities. To be very fair, Tipperary County Council spent it on two changing places facilities, one in Boher and the other in Semple Stadium. The reason it was put in Semple Stadium is that it is the home of hurling and many Munster championship games take place there. The council decided to make it accessible and usable to all. It sent out a really good message to the GAA in general. If every GAA county grounds - I am not talking about every club in the country - could accommodate a changing places-level facility, with the key open all of the time, it would send out a very powerful message.
To me, the turning of the dial was the Leigh Gath piece. That is where we went from empathy to action. That was what we needed and we need more of that. As a result of this particular case, we learned that 48 people who sat outside the scope of the disabled drivers or disabled passengers schemes had to import and meet the rules with Revenue and everything else. Approximately 48 individuals who fall outside the scope have to be brought in. To be very fair to the Minister, Deputy Michael McGrath, and his team, they found a mechanism to be able to work with them and to find a resolution. I hope that will prompt a positive move towards addressing the primary medical certificates and moving on from what has been a stalemate in that regard for the past number of years.
Mr. Donie O'Shea
To respond to the Senator's question, unfortunately, the answer is "No". There is not one place that has cracked this. The NDA has done research on this with regard to international best practice. In fairness to the Department of Finance, when it looked at the disabled passenger scheme and other schemes, it did an analysis across a number of jurisdictions on how best to support and what schemes were in place in other jurisdictions. That analysis fed into this report as well. I do not want to use the term "best practice" because as soon as one puts "best" on something, it becomes nearly written in stone. There are some very interesting cases of good practice, from various things and in certain pockets of countries. In France, there were schemes down around Nice but it would not be widespread throughout France. Similarly in the UK, certain local authorities or borough councils have particular travel schemes. In Scotland, they had a scheme called the Postbus, which disappeared after the Covid-19 pandemic. I do not know why that was.
These schemes were very interesting in how they tapped into community-based schemes that worked in certain localities and maximised how they could best serve. They used phrases like "collect and connect". Schemes like that would collect an individual from their home and not do the full distance but bring them to public transport that was accessible and which they could use independently, or with some support. One has all of these mixes of good examples in transport. Interestingly, in the working group, a lot of people highlighted these as individual, standalone issues. They should be taken collectively, and that is why I made the case that we need an overarching, co-ordinated and integrated approach to this. If we keep going at this with individual solutions, that is all they are. They are individual solutions, and the system does not actually change them.
I thank Mr. O'Shea. I forgot to mention that we should get the transport accessibility manager from the National Transport Authority, the Taxi Regulator and other people before the committee so we can get a cross-section of people together for a more co-ordinated approach. I appreciate the responses.
I thank the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, and the officials. Yesterday, at a meeting of the Joint Committee on Children, Equality, Disability, Intergration and Youth, which Mr. O'Shea attended, we discussed autism spectrum disorder. There was a pushback from officials because we were talking about legislation. This comes back to Senator Clonan's point. If the Minister of State had legislation at her back, she would have a lot more strength because things would have to be done. The Peter Tyndall report, which was done in 2021, said it was a disgrace that we politicians had not done something in the area of transport for people with disabilities. Here we are coming to the end of 2023 and we are still talking about something we might do and how we might design something. My opinion is very straightforward. If the Minister of State had the legislation at her back, the job would be done. That is why we need to get the protocols put in place. We are trying to create as much legislation and protection as we can before we do things. If we did our jobs and provided that support, we would not need to put legislation and protection in place.
We have done a disservice to people with disabilities for too long. The budget is next week and there is an expectation that things will happen with regard to transport supports. I hope that is the case.
Housing adaptation grants are provided for houses that have not been universally designed. We can talk about universal design but that will only happen in new buildings going forward. It will not happen in buildings that were not universally designed, so we will have to go back and retrofit them. Additional funds must be provided to people with disabilities so that they can access their houses.
This comes back to another issue, although I may be wrong on this as well. The Indecon report found that every person with a disability faces additional living costs of €12,000 per annum. To spare us all of the strategies to try to make everything sustainable and whatever else, why not give disabled people a financial support to enable them to provide whatever form of transport they need in the circumstances in which they find themselves? This would mean the Minister of State and every other Minister would not be looking at things in the round but would actually get something done. That is why I feel frustrated in this committee. Members said at a private meeting that we are frustrated because we talk a lot about the problems but we are not inching towards solutions. That is not a criticism of the Minister of State because she is a constituency colleague and I know her heart is in the right place. She needs to have that legislation at her back. The other Departments that are placed low on the scoresheet would also improve because they would be legally obliged to ensure services and supports are put in place.
To take the issue of school transport, which has arisen in the past three or four weeks, Ábalta Special School in Galway and other special needs schools do not have a school bus. If legislation provided that children were entitled to school transport, the bus would be there and the parents would not be trying to find a way around all of this. In September 2023, we still had children with special needs who do not have a school transport service to bring them to special needs schools because there is no bus. We all know there should be a bus. I support everything the Minister of State is doing, and we should be doing a lot more to help her do a lot more, if she knows what I mean. The optional protocol is one step. It sets the bar, and we have to reach the bar.
I share Deputy Canney's frustrations but I also have to look at this, as he says, in the round. We are coming from a base where we finally know where the gaps are. We must connect and identify them. When we talk about transport, the NTA and the community and then one talks about the individual, unless there are systems in place and proper frameworks, giving people all the money in the world would not matter if the infrastructure is not there for them to access. If we did not have taxi drivers regulated so that they must have wheelchair accessible minibuses, or if we had the NTA not giving out more licences than only one in a county, that does not meet the needs as well. I get the two sides of what Deputy Canney is saying.
Would the legislation do it?
There would have been a time when I would have thought legislation would sort everything. I look at the assessment of needs, and I see around 18,500 children for year end. That is not solving anything. That is the unfortunate thing, and I have legislation there. That is the problem. Do I think the optional protocol is the right way to go? I do. It raises the bar. It means then that, as opposed to the Minister writing on an annual basis in a "do not forget me in the budget" type of effort, it is actually at the front of an agenda. It then becomes part of circulars and regulation. I do not need local authorities to then spend some of their money on training and awareness when one is trying to put in a bit of a footpath. There would be clear understanding and direction right across all Departments. "Yes" is the answer to that, so I have answered that question as best I can. I cannot do it on my own.
I am well supported by the Minister for Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth, Deputy Roderic O'Gorman. It is important for me to say that. I am really well-supported, and hence he has looked for the scoping on it. The two of us sing from that same hymn sheet, and feel very strongly in this regard.
On foot of the conversation we have had, I suggest that the committee write to the Ministers and the Taoiseach to ask them to expedite the protocol. It is something we should discuss.
We can discuss it with the Minister.
I apologise, but I had to run out twice to make phone calls to the kids. We talk about Leinster House being child-friendly, but is not child-friendly when we are meeting at 7.40 p.m. on a Wednesday. I am very passionate about this committee and the committees I sit on, but each time I am in after 5 p.m. I will be commenting on it, given the aim to have a child-friendly Leinster House. I wanted to say that.
I welcome the Minister of State. As was said earlier, it is always a privilege to work with the Minister of State. She is energetic and wants to bring about positive change for people with disabilities in Irish society. I do not think the Minister of State is genuine when she says she wants positive changes for people with disabilities, I know she is genuine. However, like Deputy Canney, I find it a bit disheartening that in 2023 we are sitting around tables having conversations about equality of opportunity for people with disabilities to ensure that they have equal access to buses, trains, etc. Only one of the buses operating on the X30 service from Busáras to Donegal is wheelchair accessible. I am sure that there is a bus that goes every hour and a half from Donegal to Dublin.
Two weeks ago, we had Make Way Day for people with disabilities. There are people in all communities who are still ignorant about wheelchair users. They put their bins out on paths, etc. We have to be really hard on that. People using wheelchairs should have equal rights to access our roads as non-wheelchair users. It is the same with people on crutches. I am speaking from experience of having orthopaedic leg surgery over the years, and using crutches and a wheelchair. It can really disable a person. I know the Minister of State already knows this, but as a member of this committee and somebody who is very passionate about equality of opportunity for all, I find it hard to think that people with disabilities still do not have full access to services. That is on our roads as well. What are we going to do about it?
The Minister of State said that consultation around decision-making for people is important and I agree with that, but for 20 years we have been having conversations with disabled people around equality of access to our roads, equal opportunities and ensuring they can use the same paths as non-wheelchair users. I have raised the issue of mobility for children with disabilities before. We talk about mobility, but children with disabilities do not have access to facilities in our play parks. Obviously, they can go into the parks but there no facilities for them. We should make that a legal requirement. We need laws like that. I know that it is matter for the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, but the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth should be dealing with access to roads and parks for people with disabilities. We are going from Billy to Jack, we are back and forward and it goes on for a year or two. It is absolutely exhausting for people with disabilities and wheelchair users, who are still having to fight today in Ireland in 2023. It is no fault of the Minister of State. I must say that for the three years I have been here, she has been trying her best. I know that with all my heart. We need to be doing more in the budget. It is not just about it saying it here. Wheelchair users must be prioritised in bus services. I know a lot has been done, but more needs to be done.
The Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth should be responsible for access to parks, etc., for people with disabilities. This is something that I am very passionate about. It is not right that children who are othered or different cannot go into a play park and have that opportunity to play with their peers. It is the simple things that make the biggest changes. I wanted to add that point to the discussion on mobility. I know it does not really come under the remit of the Minister of State's Department, but we should try to make it fit. I am interested in any feedback the Minister of State has. I hope the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth gets the support it deserves in the budget. We have no problem working with the Minister of State through this committee. As Deputy Canney said, we want to support the Minister of State, but we also want to see more action.
I thank the Senator for all the points she covered. I could not agree more with her. There have been a few positive changes in the past three years. One positive change has been the formation of this committee. I know Deputy Canney has left. He might say it is frustrating, but I have seen a lot of very good work.
Yes.
It has enabled the work that I am doing. It is about that added voice. I am not a lone ranger; I have a good strong committee behind me that is very focused on different elements. The committee is not siloed; it works under that very important broad umbrella of the UNCRPD and looks at issues through that lens at all times. That is of assistance not just to me and the Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, but to our officials as well.
The second thing that has been very positive is the transfer of functions from the Department of Health to the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth. We are now looking at everything through that equality lens. For far too long, there was a title for a Minister with responsibility for disability and a title on a caption line of disability, but where did it fit? It was all seen through health lens, whereas now it can be seen through a broader lens. That is a person's right. Sometimes I refer to our Department as the department of equality. Children, integration and disability are also mentioned in the title. That move has been a powerful one. I probably will not see the full breadth of the effect of it during my term, but I think we have laid a very solid foundation with that move. It is a big change as far as I am concerned.
Just to add that people I have spoken to in the past three years are very happy that disability matters are under the remit of the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth rather than the Department of Health. It is a very positive move. To be fair, I think the members of the committee want to be on the committee and are working hard.
I completely concur with the Senator. There are certain partnerships and a synergy that is coming. It is coming in the form of a collective piece, and I do not think anybody is in isolation. It is about cohesion. I am aware of some of the people the committee invites to appear before it. There is nothing to say that I have not met them and now the committee is are meeting them. That is very helpful. We are all trying to get under the bonnet to find that positive solution around the remit of Departments and that working piece. It is important to say that when I was in the Department of Health, disability was both the Cinderella and the piggy bank. When spending on health ran over, it was disability moneys that were pinched at all times. That is because it has been under-resourced for donkey's years.
I should also acknowledge the different working groups that were formed as part of the disability stakeholder group and the national disability inclusion strategy. Those working groups, including the transport working group, have been very helpful. Mr. Ciarán Delaney, who has come up today to be here with us, has played a huge part as a member of that group. I also acknowledge the role of the National Bus and Rail Union. The reason I want to acknowledge its role is because the union has a steering group that is solely focused on disability matters. That is very progressive. The group looks at issues, from the bus drivers and the planners in Bus Éireann and Iarnród Éireann, to determine how they can better improve the lives of people using their services. That is really progressive and something we need to see more of.
The Senator is right that we need to see that mainstreaming first, so that we go into our towns and parks, everybody can access them and play in them.
It is not just about one individual. It needs to be mainstreamed. When we raise the tide for all under the optional protocol of the UNCRPD, we will see mainstreaming coming to fruition. Everything has to be done to include all of the population, and I take the Senator’s point on board. To be fair, though, some local authorities are better at that than others. Senator O’Loughlin is in attendance. One of the best local authorities about is Kildare County Council, believe it or not. It integrates universal design completely, leaving no one behind. Be it for a footpath or playground, that is what the council does. It has been one of the leaders in “Changing Places” facilities. It is important that, when we have good practices – I will not say “best practices” – we acknowledge them.
I acknowledge the Minister of State’s commitment, leadership and direction. As to this committee working together, our secretariat and Chair are second to none. They keep us all on our toes.
I apologise for being late. I was attending another meeting. I wish to raise a few points. Forgive me if they have been raised. The Minister of State responded to Deputy Canney’s question about whether legislation would make a difference. While legislation is important, its implementation is more important. Legislation does not change hearts and minds in society, communities and local authorities. What matters is the impact that legislation can make. Far too often, legislation is not implemented and its existence alone does nothing to support people or improve their lives, so it is not the be all and end all. That said, I agree with the implementation of the optional protocol. That is important.
It is good that the transport working group is back working. It is a shame that it stopped during Covid. Its report is important. It highlighted the need for consultation with, and active involvement by, DPOs. Any of us might have a view on a matter, but then we speak to people on the ground who have a totally different perspective. Mr. Ciarán Delaney was mentioned. I will mention him as well, as we often go back and forth on various matters. I appreciate how he takes the initiative. That form of consultation is important. Regarding transport, for example, Mr. Delaney pointed out to me that wheelchair-accessible buses had been taken out of the NTA’s fleet. The NTA has owned them all since 2009. They could be used for school buses and there is no reason they should not be. They are sold off for a pittance. Perhaps the Minister of State will elaborate on how consultation occurs.
When carrying out the census, the CSO needs to broaden its questions on disability and include specific ones on transport. From my work with Special Olympics Ireland, I saw how young people with intellectual disabilities, particularly in more rural areas, wanted to take part in sport, not for the physical enjoyment or prowess they gained from it, but for the enjoyment of being around their peers socially. Yet again, it is left to parents, and, in many cases, the parents of other children as well, to care for them. As we know, these parents are much older and do not like driving at night or at all. What is the answer? Many of these young people are left at home because they do not have opportunities. We have to build all of this into everything, and the CSO is the best way of doing that.
Local Link is a godsend, but it depends completely on where it operates and how responsive the chief executive is. The Minister of State referred to Kildare. I was on the council for many years and I agree with her; everything is disability-proofed in terms of playgrounds, etc. However, we also have a good Local Link programme. Mr. Alan Kerry is its chief executive and I speak to him on an ongoing basis about people with these types of need. Obviously, rural transport is not just concerned with people with disabilities, but if we had a service that was good, consistent, affordable and accessible enough, everyone would use it, including people with disabilities who want their independence and to go different places. That is why the CSO element is so important.
When I became a Deputy on the same day as the Minister of State in 2016, one of the things that shocked me was the fact that the mobility allowance and the motorised transport grant had been done away with three years prior. I submitted many questions – I have no doubt that the Minister of State did as well – about when they would be restored or a substitute would be put in place. We kept being told it was coming, but it never arrived. We need such a scheme. Will she comment on this?
Regarding the main barriers, she mentioned how we could support one another.
My final question is on Deputy Canney’s point about Indecon’s cost of disability report. Of €12,000, approximately €3,000 was attributable to transport costs. Just like anyone else, if people with disabilities are to have the fullest lives they can, we have to give them access to transport, be that in conjunction with Local Link or otherwise, so that they can get to where they need to be for education, work and social reasons.
I thank the Senator. I concur with her points about the work of the Chair and the secretariat. If we learn anything, it should be about the importance of this committee. In establishing it, the Houses have to be complimented on their vision and willingness to engage at this level.
I will invite Mr. O’Shea to respond to the Senator’s comments on consultation. In developing the new strategy, we will consult DPOs, which met them recently, and everyone else. What we took from our meeting with DPOs was how transport needed to be one of the main pillars. No one would disagree with that.
The Senator’s remarks about the Indecon report and the €3,000 that is used for transport out of an overall envelope of €12,000 make sense. Ms Deirdre Comiskey is on the call with me. The mobility allowance from the HSE amounted to €204 when it was stood down in 2013. That continues to be paid for those still within the scheme and equates to €2,440 per year. When inflation, indexation and so on are factored in, that is probably worth €3,000. There is an acknowledgement that, as per the report, the cost of transport is approximately €3,000. It is not about where you live or so on. It is a cost that comes with having a disability.
Does Mr. O’Shea wish to reply to some of the Senator’s questions?
Mr. Donie O'Shea
Consultation with persons with disabilities is critical. As they would say themselves, nothing for us without us. That lived experience brings knowledge about the good elements affecting them, what works and what does not work. Just as in other areas, consultation is critical.
In the production of this report while we had many Departments at the table, including the Departments of Finance and Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform, also there were the HSE, the NDA, three members from the Disability Stakeholder Group, two individuals with a disability and a representative of a disabled person's organisation, namely, the Irish Wheelchair Association. It was taken in an individual and group context. It was also in conjunction with the NDA and other Departments. While it might sound like a very small group was around the table they were all heavy hitters in their own context who were participating on it with good experience in transport.
From it we learned how varied and fragmented it is and the need to pull together on it. The Indecon report also tells us that the cost of disability includes a cost for transport. This is why I say that transport must be part and parcel of my negotiations for school leavers. This has to be the first step if we are trying to deal with a fragmented issue.
I thank Ms Smith, Mr. O'Shea and the Minister of State for a very wide-ranging engagement. I also thank our members. It is they and their dedication to our job in hand that have made the committee so meaningful in how we do business. From listening to Minister of State, the members and the proceedings, one word comes up every week and that is "attitude". Societal change in attitude is needed in how we look after people with disabilities. The Minister of State made the point that the Disabilities Act was the piggy bank of other Departments because they were raiding it if money was short in other sectors. This is probably the best way of putting it.
We have a lot of passion at our meetings with regard to agencies or people not fulfilling their role in how they look after people with disabilities or how it works out. Throughout the world climate change is a major issue. It is being discussed at every level. There is a climate change officer in every local authority. There is no officer for people with disabilities. At the beginning of the meeting the Minister of State mentioned that one fifth of people are living with a disability. There should be joined-up thinking with a port of call and a person in each public body. The Minister of State wrote a letter to all Departments regarding disability-proofing their budgets. Is every unit of the State disability-proofing its policy or changes?
The sports capital grants came out in the summer. The criteria were slightly changed and extra points were given if the club or organisation had a biodiversity element to it. I know that scheme looks at disability and whether we are really targeting people with a disability. This is probably the best example of what has been done over the past ten or 15 years in terms of getting sporting organisations to facilitate and look for people with disabilities. The point I am making is that some schemes now have criteria on climate change that must be met. Every scheme coming from the Government and the public purse must be disability-proofed. This is a major juggernaut that we are trying to change.
Every week we listen to people with lived experience and some of the very harrowing tales of families. We also meet people in our various constituencies. We need to change the attitude and have a culture change in terms of how people with a disability are viewed and accommodated in our society. This goes for a lot of the western world also. Some of the documents coming from the Departments a short time ago did not really put thought into people with fundamental disabilities. Going back to some of the points that were made during the meeting, the State was almost checking whether a disability was still there. There is this kind of attitude.
I compliment the Minister of State and the officials for their work. As the Minister of State has said, moving to the new Department has been a game changer in a short period of time and will be in the long term also because it will deal with equality. We must continually bang the drum here at this committee to make sure we give a voice to people who really need it. The attitude throughout the sector needs to be changed. There needs to be a sense from every unit of the State that we are looking at accommodating people with a disability on whatever challenges they have. There is the simple issue of the toilet being closed. This would not happen for the vast majority of people. It is okay that we do our best for people with disabilities. We do not need to have the red carpet all of the time. All we want is equality and to ensure they have the same as everybody else. I thank the Minister of State. I thank the secretariat team who do amazing work on our behalf. We are as good as the team behind us in preparing the work.
All memos going to the Government from Departments should be disability-proofed. We should start there and lead by example. There is no point in us going out to ask local authorities or transport groups if we do not do it ourselves in the Departments. All memos going to the Government should be disability-proofed. It is a simple step but it would mean there has been a thought process at the highest level in the Civil Service. This is something I would like to see.
The Disability Act was passed in 2005. It addresses what the Cathaoirleach spoke about with regard to having an inclusion officer. Perhaps some Departments and local authorities need to go back and look at what the Disability Act covers. Perhaps some Departments need to fund what it covers and put the position in situ and advertise for it. I do not say this lightly but it is the fact of the matter.
The Cathaoirleach mentioned the sports capital grants. I welcome the work that the Ministers of State, Deputies Chambers and Byrne, have done on this. I would go one step further. It is fantastic that they have seen the need for biodiversity and disability inclusion. Biodiversity should not be a tick-the-box exercise of buying wildflower seed bombs online and throwing them around with everybody jumping up saying that is the job done. Getting a service level agreement from a disability organisation should not be a tick-the-box exercise to state it is on file to get the 25 or 50 points that are required. It should be clearly demonstrated as to what inclusion and participation in sport mean. The application in itself needs to show where a changing places facility might have gone in or where accommodation has been made available that might not have been there before.
At present I am struggling to find accommodation for New Directions and school leavers. Many of our sporting organisations with accommodation are not open until 7 p.m.. I need real tangible results. I do not need people to just tick the box. I do not need to hear there is a lovely walking track around a pitch and that next time they will go for the tarmac but at present a wheelchair cannot go around it. This is tokenism. We need to move beyond this. This is where an inclusion officer would make a difference. It is an inclusion officer in a local authority who understands what real inclusion means. It is the inclusion officer who is part of our rural development or urban development groups. This is what real inclusion is about. The sports capital grant is a big envelope of money that bring about a cultural and attitudinal change at every root and branch of society in our communities. This is where we can make a real change.
The Department and this committee have done a lot of work with the decision support services to give people back capacity.
They would always need to be seen to have support when, in fact, they had the capacity themselves, if people are afforded time to articulate their voice and have it heard. Time is sometimes the biggest thing we can give a person with a disability, as opposed to assuming they can or cannot make decisions for themselves. However, huge work has been done here on Decision Support Services. I pay tribute to the Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, because of the amount of legislation that went with it. I wish Áine Flynn the very best. A lot of good work went on there. We are making changes. However, there are simple changes suggesting that if the optional protocol were enacted in the morning, by implementing a few of those measures, it would not be as painful for all Departments as they might think.
I thank the Minister of State, and I thank Mr. O'Shea and Ms Smith. We look forward to further engagement.
The joint committee adjourned at 8.01 p.m. until 5.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 11 October 2023.