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Joint Committee on Disability Matters debate -
Wednesday, 25 Oct 2023

Ensuring Inclusive Local and EU Elections: Discussion

Apologies have been received from Deputy Canney and Senators Flynn and McGreehan. The purpose of today's meeting is to discuss ensuring inclusivity in local and Europe elections. On behalf of the committee, I welcome Mr. Art O'Leary, CEO, and Dr. Clare O'Sullivan, head of electoral integrity and research, An Coimisiún Toghcháin; and Mr. John Dolan, CEO, and Ms Joan Carthy, Disability Federation of Ireland, DFI. They are all welcome to the meeting.

Before we begin, witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might damage the good name of a person or entity. Therefore, if they directed to discontinue their remarks, it is imperative that they comply with any such direction. Members are reminded of the same parliamentary practice and also that members can only contribute to the public meeting while within the confines of the Leinster House complex.

I invite Mr. O'Leary to make his opening statement. The surroundings are not unfamiliar to him.

Mr. Art O'Leary

It is a great pleasure to be back. I sat in this room for ten years in a previous existence. Gabhaim míle buíochas as an gcuireadh a bheith i láthair leis an gcomhchoiste ag an gcruinniú tábhachtach seo. I thank the Chairman for his kind invitation to join the members at this important meeting. Our appearance today marks the very first appearance by An Coimisiún Toghcháin, as Ireland's independent electoral commission before the Houses of Oireachtas, since our establishment in February this year. It is good, from the outset, to have our first committee discussion in these Houses focused on disability rights. Considering our status as a new independent public body, not yet nine months old, I will first take a moment to outline our work and functions. An Coimisiún Toghcháin has taken on a range of pre-existing electoral functions, along with new functions as set out in the Electoral Reform Act 2022. The pre-existing functions include the carrying out of constituency reviews for local, Dáil and European elections, the results of which members may have seen recently; the registration of Ireland’s political parties; the role and work on referendums previously held by the Referendum Commission; and encouraging people to get out and vote across our electoral events. Our newly established roles include preparing research and providing advice on electoral policy and procedure, building awareness of our democratic processes through education and information and overseeing Ireland’s electoral register. We also have functions related to the regulation of political advertising online and online misinformation and disinformation during election periods. These functions, set out in Parts 4 and 5 of our founding legislation, have yet to be commenced. Very pertinent to today’s discussion, we have also been tasked after every electoral event to prepare an independent report on how those events were administered.

It is important to be clear that Ireland is a State that has a long and proud tradition of universal suffrage, but already as a body which is only months old, we have become acutely aware that the universality of people’s access to voting and democratic participation is riddled with obstacles - some of them physical, related to bricks and mortar access; others related to our electoral registration processes; and more still related to the act of voting. Disabled people, while having an explicit guarantee of equal participation in political and public life under Article 29 of the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, UNCRPD, often face a very different reality when seeking to vindicate that right. While acknowledging that there has been some significant reform in recent times, around rolling registration in particular, accounts of disabled voter experiences during the 2020 general election identified a range of concerns which included: ad hoc arrangements at polling stations to allow persons with disabilities vote in private; inaccessible polling stations; lack of voter information in accessible formats; certain persons not being informed on how to vote due to inaccessible information; Saturday voting which meant personal assistants were not available to accompany potential voters to the polling station; incorrectly installed wheelchair ramps; the postal voting system being unnecessarily complicated and based on an outdated medical model; and postal votes being removed without notice. The report produced by the committee last October on participation in political, cultural, community and public life focused on these issues in-depth following its hearings, and reflects the lived experience of people with disabilities in seeking to be active citizens.

While there tends to be an immediate public focus on the physical access to polling stations for wheelchair users and others, we are seeking to focus from the outset, as Ireland’s Electoral Commission, on a universal design approach to democratic participation. We are taking a holistic perspective which looks to the access people with disabilities and people across our population have to registering, to voting, to political activity including standing as candidates, to accessing results, and being able to engage after each election on how best to make the operation of the next election better. As a newly established Commission we certainly do not claim to be experts in this area, and readily acknowledge that we are now in the early stages of a process which will involve us learning directly from people with disabilities and their representatives about these issues. I am speaking and listening at the National Disability Authority, NDA, annual conference tomorrow within a session focusing on democratic inclusion. In our early work and outputs around the publication of the recent constituency review, we have sought to place accessibility at the forefront of our communications through our consultations, publications, website, digital and video content.

While we are not tasked with the keeping of the register of electors, which remains the preserve of our local authorities, or administering the elections, which remains under the auspices of the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, we will have a significant oversight role, which will allow us to report after each electoral event on its administration.

On the electoral register, An Coimisiún Toghcháin may commission or carry out research on the accuracy and completeness of registers, the maintenance of electoral registers, and the processes relating to the compilation, maintenance and functioning of the electoral registers.

Each year, an coimisiún will publish a report setting out its assessment of the status and functioning of the register, and any recommendations the commission considers necessary to maintain and enhance the integrity of the register and the registration process.

The other significant tool in our armoury is our research function. This allows us, as a commission, to identity key issues within our democracy that need specific scrutiny and to make necessary recommendations to the Government. While our inaugural research programme has not yet been laid before these Houses and will shortly be opened for consultation, I can already confirm that our proposed research priorities will have a focus on democratic and electoral participation.

An Coimisiún will conduct and commission research to inform its approach to our education and public engagement remit and to encourage the electoral participation of under-reached groups, including through increasing the representation of women, people with disabilities and people from diverse ethnic backgrounds. According to the census 2022 findings, more than one in five of us, or 22% of our population, reported experiencing at least one long-lasting condition or difficulty. This is an enormous figure.

The next Dáil is likely to see 174 Deputies, representing 43 constituencies. How many, if any, of those Deputies will be disabled people? The answer to that question will significantly depend on how we as a State can support, promote and facilitate people with disabilities to have an equal opportunity to put themselves forward to the voters in line with the UNCRPD.

We are coming into a potentially very busy electoral period, with the possibility of every possible type of electoral event – all eight – being held within the next 24 months. As a new body in the service of Ireland's people and dedicated to building trust in our elections and electoral processes, An Coimisiún Toghcháin is determined to be part of a rights-based approach to identifying and clearing barriers to democratic access and participation.

I now call on Mr. Dolan and Ms Carthy to make their presentations.

Mr. John Dolan

Ms Carthy and I are very happy to be here today. The Disability Federation of Ireland absolutely appreciates the invitation to present on what we regard as a cornerstone commitment for the advancement of equal societal participation for disabled persons not only in Ireland but also across the world.

Ms Carthy was a member of the DFI delegation that participated in the fifth European Parliament of Persons with Disabilities, EPPD, last May. On 23 May, the EPPD adopted the European Disability Forum, EDF, manifesto on the European elections of 2024. Ireland had 13 delegates, just as we have 13 MEPs. They were selected from a group of 59 who sought to participate. The 13 participated in the work on the draft EDF manifesto and commented on it, and they have all offered to participate in respect of the forthcoming European Parliament elections.

DFI led a delegation to the fourth EPPD in December 2017. I take this opportunity to mention a member of the delegation who passed away earlier this year, namely Gerry Ellis. Gerry was a lifelong disability activist who made a strong contribution.

DFI has consistently been active at European and international levels through its participation in the UN Conference of States Parties to the Convention on the Rights Of Persons with Disabilities, COSP. We have participated in its annual meetings as well as through the EDF. During the 2019 COSP, we hosted a workshop entitled ,"How to Make Disability Votes Count", partnered by the EDF and the European Economic and Social Council, EESC. Article 29 of the UNCRPD, which is at the centre of our discussion and concerns participation in political and public life, is the foundation and compass that energises and steers the work for us.

The committee's invitation referred to the EU strategy contained in Union of Equality: Strategy for the Rights of Persons with Disabilities 2021–2030. The committee noted that the EU is renewing its commitment to ensuring the equal participation of people with disabilities in the forthcoming European Parliament elections, which it refers to as "this major political event". It is such an event.

The EDF published Human Rights Report on Political Participation of Persons with Disabilities in 2022. It is a valuable and up-to-date outline of the issues. Chapter 3, on the right to vote in and stand for elections of persons with disabilities, has a contribution from one of our colleagues on the delegation, a young Waterford woman called Aoife Price. It focuses on the situation of women with disabilities and political participation.

Let me make a few observations before I pass over to Ms Carthy. There have been increases in visibility and participation and improvements in public and political participation, along with increased voter participation by disabled people. This is not to presume that things are going well or that they will come to a successful conclusion in the near future. From our history in Ireland, we know that women were heavily involved in civil, activist and political arenas from the start of the previous century but that this hopeful trend was quickly subverted at political and societal levels. A good start does not always bring a good and timely end. My point is that trends can be sidelined and subverted. This committee has a key role to ensure the needed momentum is increased. A range of Departments and local authorities working together are necessary for that to happen.

Many people who are elected as public representatives in Ireland, whether at local level or national level, started out through involvement in some local or community campaign. That often led people to realise that there is another element, comprising the county councils, the Dáil and the Seanad. Having the opportunity to participate easily and with appropriate supports, particularly at community level, is often the jumping-off point for disabled people in developing a hunger for political participation in one form or another.

The overall political system, including political parties and groups, must act at a few levels simultaneously. The communities where disabled people live must be accessible and welcoming. The myriad of barriers need replacing, with ease of access and relevant accommodations. Ms Carthy will very sweetly go through many of those for the members.

Political parties and groups also have a responsibility to make internal organisational changes. There are many areas that they have control over, such as where they hold their meetings, reaching out to people with disabilities, the provision of information in a format that is accessible or more accessible and having a level playing field for electioneering and participation as a member of the Oireachtas or local authority.

Ms Joan Carthy

I thank the committee for inviting us. I will talk a little about the journey of a disabled person involved in political life. For anyone wanting to get involved in political life, there is a journey to take. For people with disabilities to get involved in life in general, there is a more arduous journey, one in which personal and social barriers are faced daily. Over and over again, members will have heard the stories of these barriers, including barriers to education, employment, access to transport and access to personal assistant services, and of negative attitudes and expectations.

For people with disabilities, living an independent life is a challenge in itself, let alone getting involved in a political world from which we are alienated, ignored and dismissed.

Many people with disabilities feel that politics is not for them. At a basic level, we do not even have adequate access to polling stations. While Ireland ratified the UNCRPD in 2018, and all these obstacles are addressed as a right under 50 different articles, they are still a reality in Ireland. The message is very strong to us that we do not really have a place in politics. We may have good allies in government but we need to fight to be on the agenda along with so many other issues. We are not seen as strong advocates in our own right in places of power where decisions are made. We are only invited in to tell our stories. We should be in places where decisions are made. We should be the decision makers.

I want to tell the committee of my experience of being involved in a delegation that went to the fifth European Parliament for People with Disabilities in May of this year. It was quite an experience, both negative and positive. While I am here to talk about being involved in politics as a disabled person and our experience of being involved in the European Parliament, it would be remiss of me not to discuss the barriers that came with that and what was experienced by the group, and the impact of everyday challenges that act as a further barrier which distances us from the political corridors. We had come together as the 13 Irish delegates to discuss and input into the draft EDF manifesto that would be presented to the Parliament for adoption. There was an air of excitement in the group over the opportunity to be involved in politics on a European level. There was also an air of worry about how we would travel as a group of disabled people and some delegates wondered if they would be able to arrange a personal assistant to travel with us.

On our flight to Brussels, there were major delays in assisting some of us on to the aeroplane and one person was told after boarding that her chair would not fit into the cargo hold even though the dimensions had been given in advance and tickets had been issued. The lady was asked did she really need her chair on the other end and if so, there was no other option but for her to disembark and be left behind. To add insult to injury, the captain made an announcement stating, "Sorry for the delay in take-off but we are having some issues loading the wheelchair people." There is a lot more to this story but I just wanted to set the scene, which leads into some of the points in the manifesto that we were discussing and agreeing.

From the EDF manifesto on the European elections 2024, unanimously adopted at the European Parliament for People with Disabilities, the first theme I will talk about is to guarantee the participation of persons with disabilities in the political and public life of the EU. This theme comments strongly on the right to accessible information, including easy-to-read formats, Braille and sign language. It also encompasses the right of disabled people to vote and to stand in elections in any member state, regardless of legal capacity. It states that voting is a right of citizens and the process should be accessible to everyone. It includes awareness programmes, among others. While all of this is agreed on, it will not change anything for many people with disabilities considering entering European politics if their services are not transferable.

The transferring of services is included in the manifesto under embracing accessibility and allowing free movement in Europe. For people with disabilities to be involved in European politics, this is important as it includes the adoption of an EU-wide disability card, which ensures the mutual recognition of disability status across membership states. That would include the necessary supports for people with disabilities during the transition period of moving to another country to study or take up employment. Without this support, a person with a disability who needs a personal assistant is excluded from European politics or any type of employment. This is a major issue even within Ireland as we cannot move from one county to another and transfer our care package.

During our time in Brussels, we had an opportunity to meet with many people with disabilities and discuss our experiences, which was as important as meeting with MEPs. There was a lot of engagement with Irish MEPs on the day of the Parliament where we got to discuss the themes included in the manifesto and explain what they really mean. The following day at a reception hosted in the permanent representation of Ireland to the EU, we had further opportunity to discuss at length these themes and how these barriers affect our lives and our beliefs in becoming involved in politics, at home or abroad. While all of this was really positive, it was heavily supported on a logistics front. Politics involves getting to various locations, meeting people and being in the right place at the right time with the right message. For people with disabilities, this is often hindered by the everyday issues we are addressing in the manifesto, in the UNCRPD and in our advocacy every day, which only adds to the challenges.

To get it right in Europe, we need to get it right at home first. We need accessible polling stations and access to transport, education, employment and personal assistant services. We need people to understand that we are more than our disabilities and the stories we have to tell. We are an untapped resource to add to the political discussion in general and should be valued for what we can bring to the table, any table. We need supports to have an equitable opportunity to take part in politics but once we have that, we are and will be a force to be reckoned with in all areas.

I thank Ms Carthy for that powerful contribution. Deputy Higgins is our first contributor.

I thank the witnesses for being with us to discuss this important issue. Ms Carthy summed up the situation in her closing remarks about how many failings there currently are in access to polling stations and access to adequate public transport. This committee has discussed those issues again and again. She also mentioned access to education, employment and personal assistant services, which we have also talked about again and again at this committee. Unless that whole package is there and fully accessible, we are putting more barriers in front of people when it comes to active participation in the political system. That is regrettable.

In his contribution, Mr. O'Leary talked about the 174 Deputies. I was struck by his asking how many of those will be people who themselves have a disability. Mr. Dolan and Ms Carthy have summed it up. This is not just about having the voices of people with disabilities at committees such as this to share their lived experience. It is about having them at the decision-making table. That is where change really and truly happens.

I am lucky that in my local electoral area, Sikandar Jahanzab has put himself forward as a candidate for the local elections. He has a disability. He also has a thirst for driving change. He is determined when it comes to improving life and advocacy. He has a hunger, which was the phrase Mr. Dolan used, for political participation. It is more difficult for him than it is for others who are standing. That is the reality. He has physical challenges to overcome as well as all of the challenges that any candidate has.

Accessibility at polling stations drives me nuts. I cannot believe we are still talking about the issue. Is there a list of inaccessible polling stations that we, as a committee, could supply to the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage and demand action on? That is a clear impediment to people with disabilities being able to exercise their democratic right to vote. It is an issue that came up in my constituency many years ago. That it is still happening in certain areas is wrong.

Mr. O'Leary said that postal voting was unnecessarily complicated. I will ask for a bit of information in that regard. I know we have a postal vote system and I know it is only used in certain circumstances but I am not familiar with the logistics as to how someone can request a postal vote. It is obviously not something we want to push. We do not want to encourage people to avail of it. However, that option should be there. It should be something that people with disabilities can avail of if they so choose.

I thank Mr. Dolan for everything he is doing not just at an Irish level but also at an international level. He eloquently articulated that today in his references to the EDF, IDA Ireland and the European Economic and Social Council. I thank him for all the great work he is doing. We are looking for ways to help him and progress this. I think Mr. O'Leary said there are eight potential electoral occasions coming up. I could only think of six.

I can only come up with local, European, presidential and general elections, a referendum and a plebiscite. What are we missing?

Mr. Art O'Leary

The Seanad.

The Seanad, good Lord. My colleagues will shoot me.

Mr. Art O'Leary

Obviously there will be a plebiscite.

Mr. Art O'Leary

Perhaps in Dublin but also for the directly elected mayor for Limerick next June.

Super. That will be a first.

Mr. Art O'Leary

That will be at the time of the local elections. It will be a busy electoral period.

Those 24 months offer so much opportunity for people who want to get involved in the political system at this time. Whatever we can do as a committee, as parliamentarians and within our own parties to convince them as well and to make that a more accessible process for people with disabilities, that is what we are here to do. Will the witnesses let us know their views on that?

I call Ms Carthy or Mr. Dolan.

Ms Joan Carthy

I suppose access to polling stations is obviously a hugely important piece. The returning officers would be the people who would have that information, which we have not gotten our hands on as of yet. I know we had meetings with the Department approximately two years ago. We had the suggestion that if needs be the Irish Wheelchair Association's premises could be used if that matched up with the electorate and where there was not an accessible space for them. It is about thinking outside the box and reaching out to those services that are already in communities that people are familiar with and used to and, most important, are accessible.

Mr. Art O'Leary

To be helpful to the committee, in 2019 there were 100 polling stations in the country. Last year, that was reduced to 23. There are now 23 buildings which are inaccessible and that sounds as if great progress has been made but the figure should be zero. The fact that there are only 23 buildings means the challenge of turning 23 to zero is not as great as turning 100 to zero. We need to push this. Elections happen once every number of years but most of these buildings are schools. Children are attending these inaccessible schools so it is not just about voting. I know we are here to talk about that today but we should be working in this area.

Is it possible to furnish a list?

Mr. Art O'Leary

I will get a list, yes.

Can it be furnished to the committee and to DFI also as it would be useful to it?

Mr. Art O'Leary

We will see what we can do. On the postal voting issue, some progress was made last year with the Electoral Reform Act 2022. There used to be a requirement for annual registration for a postal vote so every year a person would have to go to his or her doctor to get a medical certificate. Now it is a single registration. If the doctor says that someone will be permanently unable to vote, then that will last a lifetime. There is still a difficulty with having to go to the doctor to declare an illness or a medical difficulty with voting, as I understand it, from the group. Therefore, we need to explore that a little further to see how we can make this particular process better.

With these eight electoral events in the next two years not only does it give us an opportunity to do something but it provides such a brilliant opportunity to learn. We will do a review after every single electoral event where we will capture all the things that were hard, and all the things that did not work. The lived experience of people with a disability is so important to us. We have had this conversation at the Electoral Commission about the rights of people with disabilities to engage in the electoral process and I said that our ambition in this area should be eye-watering. This is an area where we can make a real difference to people's lives. I look forward to working with the groups to find out, in granular detail, what makes it hard and what we can do to overcome barriers. I suspect it is an area we can make a real difference in the next couple of years.

I thank Mr. O'Leary.

Mr. John Dolan

I have a couple of very quick comments. When Deputy Higgins spoke about the compliment to DFI in regard to working at an international level, we work at a local level and we are trying to do more and more work with local authorities and so on. There is the national piece and the international piece. There are three legs of the stool. Looking at what happened in Ukraine, that has had repercussions for disabled people as do difficult things that happen internationally or in countries that move away from democracy. It is important to say we are talking about a nasty little issue we still have here in Ireland but at the same time I can be very proud that Ireland has continued to be a democracy, and a pretty well-functioning one.

There are things I would say, and we all would say, that could be done better, and should have been done better for the past 100 years. That kind of frustrates me. Why in the name of God we cannot actually solve this? We can. Things come on the radar and then they slip off, then there is a change of government and then there is this and that. That is what is going on. To make that point, in the 1980s a woman named Nora Draper, who lived in Dublin, became disabled in late or middle age and was appalled and affronted by the idea that she could not vote. She and some other people got involved and the scheme they came up with at the time was that a garda and a presiding officer would turn up in a person's house with a box and the person would have to show them evidence from a doctor that he or she was competent - not that they had a condition - to vote. We still have not gone the whole way with that.

That is a bit of a rant but it is about how slow it is and how it drags. I will repeat the point I made earlier that I am appealing to this committee to use a stick. This has to do with local authorities, a range of Departments and public bodies, the Office of Public Works, and so on.

It is great to have an Electoral Commission and to hear the head of that speak about universal access but it is riddled with obstacles. That is what the Deputy heard half an hour ago. This is just about capital money and putting a system in place. It is not a cost. The Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform does not need to be bothered about it breaking the bank. Those are my couple of comments.

When Ms Carthy spoke about her experience on her trip to Brussels, and about the aeroplane and not being able to get a place in the cabin for a wheelchair, it reminded me that we always talk about buses and all sorts of transport but we never talk about aeroplanes and how difficult it is to manoeuvre in them and otherwise. We do not seem to take that into account. I thought the captain making such a remark was absolutely horrendous. It was really horrendous to say something like that.

On access to polling stations, I remember in the last general election I brought a woman who was in her 80s and on a Zimmer frame. She was so determined to get to vote. That showed me. I must have been there for three quarters of an hour as there was no help or access. A horrible boarded ramp was put up, which was insulting. The whole thing was really degrading for the woman but, by God, was she determined. Unfortunately, the woman is now dead but to see it happen was just an inspiration.

It reminded me of postal voting and how it is accessed and how obstacles are put in place. Even when a person is going to get the postal vote, they have to go through hoops. That needs to be made more simple and maybe we need to push for that. We also need to identify who the people we need to get at are because there are people who seem to be so far removed, not through any fault of their own, but through the system. They do not feel engaged in the system, so we need to find a mechanism. I do not know how we would do it.

There is the issue of voting on a Saturday and of personal assistants.

Where does one get a personal assistant on a Saturday? I just do not know. Maybe it needs to be highlighted that we need to hold votes on days that are suitable to people. If we are serious about talking about people with disabilities on a par with everyone else, that needs to be pushed to ensure that we have that. Mar gheall ar an gCoimisiún Toghcháin agus an ról nua neamhspleách atá aige, tá sé thar am go bhfuil sé ag tógáil an róil sin agus táim an-bhuíoch de go bhfuil sé ag tógáil an róil sin. It is important that we have an independent body like the Electoral Commission looking at this and trying to monitor what is going on to see if approaches are needed. We have to ensure there is a rights-based approach right across the board. That is important.

We get the electoral register. We have no indicator of who is what or otherwise. I am not suggesting that we should for one minute but it is a problem in identifying what the situation is with certain people. How does one go about that? I would like to hear more about how we explore those avenues. Do we go to the local authority? Do we go to the health boards? Are there different mechanisms to identify people who are being left out of the loop? I am not sure of how it would be done but I would like to hear ideas on that.

The EU is talking about renewing its commitment to ensuring equal participation by people with disabilities in EU elections. How much input do we have into that? I assume that, right across the board and across Europe, every group is putting in their piece regarding their population. I assume there is much pressure. I would love to hear how we apply pressure to ensure that people with disabilities are out front and are not being left behind.

Mr. Art O'Leary

Gabhaim míle buíochas leis an Teachta Ellis as na focail chineálta maidir leis an gCoimisiún Toghcháin. In the last 30 years, there have been eight separate Government decisions to establish an electoral commission but this is the first time that we have got round to doing it. We have been jogging on the spot for 30 years, waiting for this moment, and we are not going to lose the opportunity. I agree with everything Deputy Ellis said. There is much work to be done across this whole spectrum.

The electoral register is a particular case in point. We all understand in this country that the electoral register is not anything like as good as it could or should be. We are good in this country at putting people on the register and not great at taking them off. A brilliant project is going on in the Custom House to make a single database with personal public service numbers and dates of birth to eliminate duplicates and so on. We will run an ambitious voter engagement programme to reach into these groups that are currently not on the register. I was at the Citizens' Assembly on Drugs Use over the summer and I heard one of the workers in an addiction treatment centre talk about hard-to-reach groups. He said there is no such thing as hard-to-reach groups, only hard-to-reach services. We have been looking at this issue, as a State, from the wrong end of the telescope for decades now. These people are getting up in the morning, living their lives and doing their business. We cannot complain that we cannot get at them or that they cannot reach us. We need to hang out in places where they hang out. We will have an education and engagement programme that will be ambitious enough to reach all of these people to ensure they have the opportunity to engage on the electoral register.

I absolutely accept what the Deputy said about voting on a Saturday. If people are not in a position to vote, then we have to make it easier for people to vote. It would be disappointing for people who want to turn up in a polling station and cast their ballot like the rest of their community and vote with their community-----

I think the original thing with the Saturday was that people who were working in Dublin went home and were able to vote at home. I do not necessarily accept all of that but I think that was the idea at the time.

Mr. Art O'Leary

I am not sure the turnout figures proved that fact afterwards. For working parents, Saturdays can be like Christmas Eve. There are all kinds of things going on, family activities and all sorts. For people who are used to voting on the way home from or to work, this new idea of voting on a Saturday was something that we had to try as a State. We should encourage people to try new initiatives. I like the idea of people who want to vote in their community to get the opportunity to go and visit. We will try to give people with a disability the opportunity to vote using a postal vote, perhaps, but if they want to go to a polling station, then we somehow have to make that happen. There is much work to be done. Mr. Dolan and Ms Carthy will probably be able to give a better response about the issue regarding the EU. We are speaking to the EU and starting to join EU networks ourselves to try to uncover the work we could do to collaborate and solve these problems.

Mr. John Dolan

One of the main things that we have been involved in, as I mentioned in my opening remarks, is report issue 6 from the EDF last year, which focused on human rights. That is a good starting point. Mr. O'Leary will have the opportunity to meet one of the major writers of that tomorrow, Alejandro. I cannot think of his family name. He is a lovely Spanish man. That is a start.

I have a couple of points. Deputy Ellis talked about how we reach out to people, whether local authorities or health authorities. Our network of organisations and groups is one pond that we can trawl through. I wanted to make a couple of other points. The Assisted Decision-Making (Capacity) Act should be a really strong driver for us. We have advertisements in Irish and English on the television saying that every single person has capacity. That goes for other constituencies, too. It is about how people get to it and how one facilitates it.

I love the idea of voting in a democracy as a public act. I do not like the idea that it is done in a corner in one's own home. I think there is great symbolism to it and symbols are powerful things. We saw that with the first election in the free Republic of South Africa. We all remember the woman in the wheelchair being brought to vote. To see somebody who is very disabled in a public space, voting, is arresting and is a message to other people. That should be what we want to ensure is a real choice for people. We run an event every year called Make Way Day. It struck me, listening to this conversation, that there may be a need for a make way election day. Between different stakeholders, including us here and others, we could actually try to come up with a focus on getting people to be able to go out and make their vote. They are the couple of points I would like to make at this stage.

Ms Joan Carthy

I go back to the idea of having a doctor's letter. It is something that comes up for people with disabilities all the time. We need doctors' letters for everything that we need or want to get involved in.

It is €25 to get a doctor's letter with a medical card. That in itself puts a cost on whether a person can vote. That is a barrier for some people. Looking at access to polling stations, it is great to see that it is down to 26, which seems a more manageable number, but referring to something Mr. Ellis said about a ramp being brought out for a person, that is not good enough. Breaking down what accessibility really means, are they fully wheelchair accessible or are they accessible because a ramp has been put in place to allow somebody to get in? If we do not have that level playing field of full access for people with disabilities, they are not going to vote, even if they know that their own station is okay but other places may not be. We have to get everywhere accessible. A major awareness campaign needs to go along with that because people with disabilities have been excluded for so long now that they just pull themselves away from politics. Their view is “It is not about me, it is not for me, they do not even want me to vote”. They do not therefore engage in politics in any way. Not everybody, obviously, but that is what happens. We have to bring people with disabilities back into the fold and make them aware that they have every opportunity to vote in the same way as everybody else. There is a space for postal votes for those people but we need to find a better way of doing that. It is to ensure that people with disabilities come out of their homes, whether it is a Saturday or during the week. Many people with disabilities do not have personal assistants.

Ms Joan Carthy

That in itself is a huge issue. Again we are going back to the issues of transport and personal assistants. We cannot talk about access to polling stations in isolation. It is about all those other pieces as well.

I wanted to say one other thing on polling stations. When a person gets into the polling station to vote, they are supposed to have a private cubicle. None of them are wheelchair accessible. That is a point I have noticed over the past number of years. The polling station is said to be wheelchair accessible and wheelchair approved but my experience is that is not the case. That needs to be highlighted because some of the booths have a high point for writing with no proper facility for a person with a disability.

Mr. Art O'Leary

On that point, recently the Australians had a referendum on the rights of indigenous peoples. They tried hard in that country to make voting as easy as possible for people. Voting is compulsory. They fly helicopters and have big four-by-fours that go to the outback delivering ballot papers. An Australian citizen can turn up in any polling station in any part of the world, including embassies, and say “I am here to vote”. I went to the Australian Embassy to look at voting, and there was a wheelchair accessible booth for people to vote in.

We should have them.

Mr. Art O'Leary

Every Australian embassy in the world gets a pack from the electoral commission with polling booths, posters and ballot papers, and everything necessary in order to do it. In this day and age it should not be hard. We have 6,000 polling stations in this country. How hard can it be to deliver something like that? I am listening very carefully to what the Deputy is saying.

Dr. Mary-Clare O'Sullivan

To follow up on Mr. Dolan’s point about the European angle to this, I came back yesterday from the two-day conference of the European cooperation network on elections in Brussels. There was a good session on access for people with disabilities including a talk from the vice president of the European disability forum and various other groups. A good deal of information was given on the research, indicators and data. One thing we can learn is that its research contains a great deal of information. We will have an ambitious research programme and we will want to speak to people here in Ireland and be broad about that. However, a good deal of work has been done already. We do not want to add another report on a shelf but pick up the many indicators already there that can help us in trying to make progress in this area.

I call Senator O'Loughlin who is standing in for Senator McGreehan.

I thank Mr. O’Leary, Mr. Dolan and Ms Carthy for coming before us. Many of us would have loved an opportunity to have a discussion with Mr. O’Leary about six months ago.

Mr. Art O'Leary

I get that a lot.

I am sure. It is great that the commission is in place. I wish Mr. O’Leary the best of luck with it. It is good to hear his experience in the Australian Embassy. Best international experience has to inform what we do here also. I am pleased to hear that research can be commissioned and carried out into different areas. Definitely the electoral register, as has been mentioned, could be one area. There are always numerous problems but I believe research into participation and the barriers among those with disabilities and in other vulnerable categories would be worthy.

My blood boiled when I listened to Ms Carthy speak about her experience on the plane. To have educated, professional people using that type of degrading language is awful. Hearing that kind of disparaging language, that is not meant in a bad way, reminds me that we have a long way to go in society and in communities. People need to have a little bit of respect and cop on. I thank all the witnesses for what they have given us to date. As the witnesses may know, we had a public meeting almost two years ago with the disabilities stakeholders group who spoke about serious barriers when it comes to voting. I agree with Mr. Dolan’s views about the public act of voting. While on one hand there are people who do not bother to vote, when people are interested we want to encourage them to vote. It is important to be caught up in that electoral cycle and the election situation as regards watching debates before elections, seeing the posters and discussing the candidates. I have a brother with a disability. His vote is important to him, whether in a referendum or an election, and he gets so caught up and enthused about it. I know how important it is. Obviously it is important to have postal votes, but the same time we should do all we need to do.

I was on an electoral observation mission in Montenegro last May. That was the first time I had the opportunity to do that. I looked at the polling booths through the lens of disability in terms of what could be improved, and made my report based on that. They were not brilliant on accessibility, but quite good. As with Deputy Ellis I would have made that observation at home about wheelchair access to the booths and where the shelf is for writing. That is simply not good enough. I am glad the number has been reduced to 23. With regard to those 23, are specific notices sent out if we are aware that on the register there are people with difficulties? Unless a postal vote is noted beside the person’s name we may not be aware. How do we put something in place for people who just turn up at those 23 polling stations? That is important.

It is interesting to know that Saturday voting presents difficulties for those with personal assistants. The point is well made that many people have no personal assistant. I am pleased to hear about the changes in postal voting. That was always an issue, when they were removed without notice.

Standard training in disability awareness and equality for all returning officers is hugely important. Is that something the Electoral Commission will do, roll out and recommend? I mentioned the international practice to support inclusion for people with disabilities in voting. It is not even just the act of voting, it can be all the different fora where debates and meetings take place, to ensure there is access.

The witnesses could perhaps mention reasonable accommodations for blind and deaf voters and the measures needed to include for access.

We will start with Mr. O'Leary.

Mr. Art O'Leary

Míle buíochas, a Chathaoirligh. There is a lot there. Thank you for your kind words. The support of the Oireachtas is very important for us in the way we do our work.

On a couple of the points raised, training for returning officers is currently organised by the Custom House, that is, the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, in association with the local authorities generally. The running and administration of elections is still a matter for Government.

Returning officers can authorise people with a disability to vote at different polling stations if it is accessible but they have to know who they are, of course, and that can be difficult as well. We will look at that issue in greater detail to make sure that that is streamlined to the greatest extent possible.

The issue of braille is interesting. There was a court case taken a number of years ago by Robert Sinnott which had a great impact because there are now braille ballot papers. There is still a difficulty because while the ballot paper tends to be quite short in referendums and if it is in braille one can do it in a polling booth, for a local election or some of the Dáil elections, the ballot paper in braille is hard plastic and so it is hard to get it. You probably need a big table to be able to do it properly and that is certainly not available at the moment. Mr. Sinnott is working with a working group in the Custom House at the moment to try to see if we can do something there. It is a case that we are following with great interest.

The number of people who used the braille ballot papers is very small. It was just 58 in the 2020 elections, but that is 58 people who we helped vote properly. If we collected an extra 58 every time that we did one of our electoral events, we would make life easier for people. It is all about making a difference.

I was pleased to hear Deputy Ellis speak about the example of the woman who was absolutely determined to vote. This is so important. We all love to hear that. We want everybody to have fire in their belly about the electoral process and to engage and we should make it as easy as possible for them.

Mr. John Dolan

I am glad Mr. O'Leary mentioned Robbie Sinnott. He is a colleague of mine on the disability stakeholders group. I remember, when I was a Member of the Oireachtas, him coming in here to explain the process and the journey going through the legal process.

There is something here that goes beyond simply people with disabilities. In a democracy, if one is seen and people can see that a state is making efforts for people to vote, it is actually saying we value democracy. It is precious. It is important not to lose sight of that. Be it that elderly person, someone with a disability, or somebody with other situations or difficulties, the person can be seen and other members of the community can see that that is valued. That is important.

There are two fronts here that need to be dealt with. There is the act of voting and all the technicalities around that, whether it be braille, this or that or ramps but the question is how does one get - to use the analogy - the horse to water. How does one get somebody to want to go there? How does one get somebody thinking that is really important that he or she casts his or her vote and that he or she is an important person in that community. That is an area that we need to focus on more. Sometimes problems get solved, for instance, when somebody says that he or she wants to vote. People start making arrangements and doing all sorts of things to make it happen. That is the other side of this.

We are in a State where one can choose not to vote. It is not mandatory to vote. Nobody catches you by the scruff of the neck and brings you to the polling station. We need to work on that side. It is not easy, when one is talking about constituencies of people and it is not only disability, where they have been away from the mainstream of activity and where their life does not seem to be much different whether they participate or not. That is an element of it.

The other point I would make is that it is also important for Ireland's reputation internationally that we are seen to be strong. We have a reputation in terms of our peacekeeping and we can have a reputation in terms of the effort we put in to make sure that every eligible person can vote in this country. Dr. Mary-Clare O'Sullivan mentioned, but not by name, one of the vice presidents of the European Disability Forum, EDF.

Dr. Mary-Clare O'Sullivan

Gunta Anca.

Mr. John Dolan

Gunta, a great woman. There is a couple of vice presidents. One of the other ones is Mr. Pat Clarke from Dublin. I am sure Senator O'Loughlin knows him and all his work over the years. That is EDF again. Unfortunately, Mr. Clarke was not available to be here today but he will be at that conference tomorrow. There are lots of things happening in these few days. They are very strongly wedded to trying.

There are a lot of countries in the European Union where disabled people would be happy to be at the situation we are saying is not up to scratch in Ireland. We have a voice and we can be a sign to others, even in Europe, as to how to improve things and what can be a standard that can be achieved.

I thank everybody for coming in.

What can I say to Ms Carthy about the wheelchair people on the plane? My son, who is a wheelchair user, and I have flown on different airlines and have had different experiences but I remember once being in Dublin Airport, intending to fly to Barcelona. I wheeled him up to the door of the aircraft and there was a bit of a kerfuffle. They had not arranged the assistance so I lifted Eoghan out of the chair, the two of us walked in together and sat in the first row, and then I went back to get his wheelchair. The cabin crew said she was sorry but you cannot exit the aircraft once you have entered it. I replied that I needed his wheelchair. She asked whether he would need that in Barcelona and Eoghan said, "Unless Jesus Christ is on board and performs a miracle at 37,000 ft, I will need it." One thing about Ms Carthy's story is, it shows that pilots do not know everything. They know almost everything but they do not know everything. There will come a day when the wheelchair people will be running the country, I hope, and others.

On a more serious note, and it is a question for everybody, I refer to the parliament for disabled persons in Europe. I note there was one in the Northern Ireland Assembly not long ago. Have we had a disabled parliament here in Oireachtas Éireann? I imagine that would be a good idea, as Mr. Dolan says, on two levels, namely, to promote the public participation of all of our citizens in our democratic institutions and to highlight the levels of access that are required to function fully in here.

Finally, on that note, I notice that there is an increasing number of interns with disabilities. There are actually both a number of people with visible disabilities among Senators and Deputies and quite a number of Deputies and Senators who have disabilities that are not visible. I have become aware of that over the past while. As I have stated previously, we as a committee should ask for a fully accessible changing place in Leinster House because we should be sending a signal to the rest of the country about how accessible we are. We should be providing leadership in that regard. If I could put that on the record, we as a committee could ask estates management or whoever that we do that without delay.

I congratulate An Coimisiún Toghcháin. It is a very busy electoral period. The constituency I represent will possibly require revision based on a Supreme Court decision.

I am on the Trinity panel, which has 75,000 registered voters. The average turnout is about 17% or 18%, which is shocking. I think of a place like Finglas, where I come from, which has a similar population of between 75,000 and 100,000. Imagine if they could vote for three Senators. You would hope the turnout would not be as low as 17% or 18%. I have heard one rumour that they might expand the Trinity constituency to include Dublin City University, DCU, and Technological University Dublin, TUD. I taught in TUD for 22 years and I have two degrees from DCU. I am just saying that, in terms of redrawing the constituency.

My son, Eoghan, was born on 7 February 2002. He turned 18 on 7 February 2020, on the eve of the general election. We got him up to Blackrock Garda station, and the gardaí were brilliant. They made a big fuss of him. They brought him in and formally identified him. This speaks again to what Mr. Dolan was saying about public participation and the whole civic experience. They were very serious. They formally identified him, and put him onto the supplementary register. They had the big stamp and a big ceremony. I should also say they gave him a lot of unsolicited political advice. He got to vote the next day. That is a wonderful thing, but so often disabled citizens depend on the kindness of strangers, when really we should be at a starting point. I hear it in the aspirations set out for the commission that everything should be in place. There is this question of having a carer on Saturdays. Everybody should have a carer on Saturday and Sunday, because you might actually want to go to mass. Imagine that outdated notion. It comes back to the idea that disabled citizens want to participate fully in all aspects of this Republic - cultural, political, social, economic and even religious. It is such a pity that people would be constrained on the basis of lack of access to a personal assistant. As everybody has said, it is a whole-of-government approach. Many of the questions asked have been answered, but is there something the committee could do to pursue a disabled persons' parliament if the witnesses think it is a good idea?

I think there are moves afoot to try to organise that. Ciarán Delaney was talking about that some time ago. We might come back to it later.

Ms Joan Carthy

It would be a great idea, but the lack of access in the Chambers might cause a huge problem. Even when you look into the Chambers you have the sense that this place is not for you. It is not very accessible, and it would be difficult to bring in more than one person with a disability. When we were in the European Parliament it was full of people with disabilities. That is what it was all about, and there was no issue with you finding a proper space in the area. While it would be a great idea, it would highlight the lack of access for people with disabilities in the area. We would love to see it happen.

Mr. John Dolan

Since being at the parliament in 2017, and at the European one this year, I have been thinking actively about that. I think there was some talk about some kind of assembly with the Seanad. I certainly think there is a letter to be written to the Ceann Comhairle on this subject. The Senator is right about the issues, but I take the view that if something is a good thing to do let us find a way to do it. The first Dáil sitting was in the Mansion House. It can be somewhere. At the European one a motion was put forward about the European elections and what were the key things for people. They were freedom of movement, issues like transport and voting and those kinds of things. It has a good effect, and it brings people together. The other point is that we are talking about people with a range of conditions and disabilities. If you do it, you will do it better the next time.

On the subject of changing places, the answer is, "Yes". A family or somebody from anywhere in Ireland cannot come up to our Houses of Parliament for a day, whether to do the tour, meet people, do business or whatever. We want more people with disabilities to be able to come into all of the different committees to give their evidence and talk about the issues. That they cannot have the comfort of knowing is simply not on. Over the years, I have known Members of both Houses who had disabilities. I am thinking in particular of two people who have passed on, and who would not ever have dreamed of outing their conditions. Some of that was because other people could take advantage. You are in a place where there is a lot of competition. There have always been people in these Houses with disabilities or serious conditions. When you look at the age profile of people in here, why would there not be? It would be odd if there were not. The work we are talking about doing here should, in a decade or two, make it easier for people to be appropriately open about their condition and be able to carry on with their work.

Mr. Art O'Leary

I will pick up on a couple of points. I first want to congratulate Senator Clonan's son, Eoghan. As your campaign manager, he is a beacon for people with a disability. You were successfully elected, and if you cannot see it you cannot be it. He did a terrific job, and the Senator does a terrific job highlighting the role Eoghan played in his campaign, which was important, and did not go unnoticed.

I will speak to couple of issues in the Seanad case. The Supreme Court judgment in the Heneghan case obviously made for stark reading. We are all awaiting the Government response with regard to what will happen with the Seanad seats. A turnout of 17% is unacceptable from any of our perspectives. The difficulty is that the electoral register database is woefully out of date. The Trinity and university authorities are writing to people at addresses they had in college in some cases, and these people are long gone. There was talk during the course of the case that the Electoral Commission might have a role in looking at the electoral register for the Seanad university seats. That is certainly something we would have to look at. We have a role in post Seanad election reviews. After every Seanad election we will have a look at everything that works well, and everything that does not. The electoral register is something we will be focusing on. It is a challenge because our job is to encourage as many people as possible to engage; 17% is not acceptable.

On the subject of Eoghan registering the day before the election, there is good news on that front. The Electoral Reform Act now allows for rolling registration. You can pre-register as a 16-and 17-year-old now-----

That is fantastic.

Mr. Art O'Leary

-----so this happens automatically. We need to be in schools with fifth and sixth years. We need to get classes to register themselves as well. This is how we get young people involved in voting. The Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage wrote to us during the summer asking us to look at the question of voting at 16. I have no view on this yet, nor does the commission because we have not looked at it. However, the academics are saying strongly that habits you develop as a 16- and 17-year-old stay with you for life.

The earlier people get to vote, therefore, the higher the chances are that continuing to vote will stay with them as a habit and a public service. For the moment, 16- and 17-year-olds can register and we encourage everybody to do so. It will be a big part of our education, information and public engagement programme when we roll that out, hopefully in the early part of next year and certainly sometime next year.

I thank Mr. O'Leary and I wish him the very best of luck in the work.

Mr. Art O'Leary

I thank the Senator. He is very kind.

Mr. John Dolan

We have just passed the tenth anniversary of the referendum on saving the Seanad in order to reform it. Noel Whelan, who is no longer with us, was the driving force behind that campaign. The Government does not report to the Seanad but the House has a role in bringing about diverse civil society participation and insight into the work of legislation and policy. I would not like this meeting to pass without referring to this tenth anniversary.

I thank everyone for their statements. Much has been said already, but I have just a few comments. I remember when I first became aware that a wheelchair user could not vote in his or her local polling station because it was not accessible. I was horrified to learn that. It was not something that had crossed my mind. I had just assumed that all polling stations were accessible. I think one of the candidates in the last local elections in County Cavan was a wheelchair user and she could not vote in her local polling station.

As Mr. Dolan said, it depends on the situation. People have different disabilities. As Mr. O'Leary stated, there has to be universal design. We must ensure buildings are accessible for wheelchair users. There are also other considerations, however, for example, how people without the use of their hands would be able to vote. Would they be allowed to have someone to help them? If people have intellectual disabilities, are they allowed to get some direction? I know some of these things are happening but we must ensure people know these supports exist and they can access them. It is important, therefore, that polling stations are universally designed and voting materials are accessible and easy to read. This goes for political parties as well. We must ensure our election materials are in an easy-to-read format. There may be a little bit of convincing to do but that has to be done.

As has been acknowledged, there have been improvements, albeit at a slow pace. On postal vote registration, I know of many people who got caught out by that over the years. They registered for a postal vote, voted by post and assumed they would not have to register again. They then found they had no vote at the next election and were very upset about it. It is great that this has been amended.

A long time ago, I remember arguing for the register to be linked to PPSNs. I could not understand why there was an issue with that because at one stage I had three votes and was on three different registers. I registered twice on one register under two different names and I was on another register as well. I made the county council aware of this and when the draft register of electors came out, I has been taken off it completely. When I brought this to the attention of the county council officials, they were horrified because I was a county councillor and I was not registered. I think they went off to ensure that no other county councillors had been removed from the register. It is important, therefore, that registering has become easy, registration is rolling and can be done online and from an early age.

When I was teaching, I taught the leaving certificate applied, LCA, and social education. We used to talk about voting. One of the exercises that the students had to do was to get a voter registration form and fill it out. When we had that exercise done, I used to keep the forms, keep an eye on their dates of birth and then submit those forms. The students knew I was going to submit those forms, so they were delighted they were registered to vote prior to their 18th birthday. I thought it was very important that they learned this in school. Students taking the LCA have this module in their courses but it is not necessarily a part of the leaving certificate in general. It might be part of civic, social and political education, CSPE, in the junior cycle. It is important that we educate our young people on the importance of voting.

A question was put to me and I do not know if the witnesses might have an answer to it. A young man with a significant disability and a great interest in politics would love to put himself forward for selection at local election conventions. He asked what supports would be available if he were to be elected and during the election campaign. If he were elected as a local councillor, would he be automatically entitled to a personal assistant, PA, or would he have to source that support himself? I do not even know with whom I should follow up this query. I would be grateful if the witnesses could provide some information in this regard.

Ms Joan Carthy

My understanding is that it does not matter where people work or who they are, they must apply for a personal assistant. It would not come along automatically just because someone had been elected as a county councillor. I think that is a major barrier, from the beginning to the end, for people to surmount when thinking about getting involved in politics. It is difficult to even try to sort out this level of support to enable people to negotiate the different stages getting involved in politics. It is a huge barrier. Even if the person that Deputy Tully is asking about were to be elected as a county councillor, he would still need to apply for a personal assistant.

Physically, he would need the support of someone to enable him to do the work.

Ms Joan Carthy

I am sorry to cut across the Deputy, but whether someone is running for election or looking for a job in a university or in a supermarket does not matter. People still need support. One person could not come above another person trying to get a job somewhere else.

Yes. We need to encourage more people to get involved in politics. Mr. Dolan spoke about community groups. Often there are more women involved in these groups and they do not really equate this with being in politics.

Mr. John Dolan

Yes.

We often have campaigns to try to get more women involved and we tell them that what they are doing in these community groups is actually politics. They are representing their community and making improvements to it. This is about building people's capacity and competence to take that step and put themselves forward for election.

Regarding the comment made by a pilot, I think Senator O'Loughlin was being nice when she said he did not mean any harm. I do not know if it was ignorance. I think it was more arrogance. I wonder if a complaint was made because the person would have been within her rights to complain. That comment was outrageous.

Ms Joan Carthy

Yes, a complaint was definitely made by DFI and the individual concerned.

What was the result of the complaint? The witnesses might respond to Deputy Tully first and I will come back in at the end.

Ms Joan Carthy

I do not know. The DFI followed up the complaint.

Mr. John Dolan

The individual concerned made a complaint, obviously. We, as the organising party, also made a complaint. The matter has not come to a conclusion.

Does Mr. O'Leary wish to respond to Deputy Tully?

Mr. Art O'Leary

A couple of points were raised by Deputy Tully. The electoral register is a challenge because there is no such thing as the "electoral register". There are 31 separate registers run by local authorities, while Dublin City Council does the four local authority areas in Dublin city and county. The issue of duplicates does not crop up. If someone is born in County Kerry, studies in Dublin and then does a master's degree at the University of Limerick, it is likely that person will collect registrations in every place he or she has lived because none of these local authorities talk to each other now. This is the big project that is being done and run out of the Custom House. When it is finished, it will be brilliant. I urge all the members and their constituents to go to www.checktheregister.ie, upload their PPSN and date of birth and let us aim to have a bulletproof electoral register by 2025 or 2026.

For the record, I agree entirely that all our materials should be accessible to everybody. Our head of communications, Brian Dawson, has great experience in this area. All our materials will be in as accessible a format as possible for everybody.

There is much work to be done. It takes an awful lot of time and effort to do it but it is worthwhile.

Mr. John Dolan

This brings to mind something I should have thought of before. We talk about how women are hugely invested and involved in community. Why does this not transfer to local authorities or the Oireachtas? It is the same issue as disabled people have, just different accommodations. The barriers in place do not facilitate women. What are the barriers for women? Many of them have to do with women's caring roles and family matters. It is a savage kind life, being a Member of the Oireachtas and being pulled in all directions. It is now 7 o'clock in the evening and we could be here until 8 o'clock and something else could be coming up. There are the same kinds of issues as for people with disabilities. Questions arise. Supposing I get elected, how do I get in and how will I do this?

I will return to the point of the question of how we can get more people with the hunger to participate politically. Getting youngsters to register is important. Mr O'Leary made a very interesting point that the research shows that if a person gets into the habit of doing something, it becomes easier. Of course, that makes sense.

I am reminded of a witness who appeared previously. He felt that disability issues were not important for politicians because disabled people lacked a strong voice. I disagreed with him on this point. According to the census, 22% of the population identifies as having a disability. If we add those people's families, there is huge potential within such a large group. It is just a matter of bringing it together and putting the pressure on. The witness talked about standing for elections but thought he would not have the necessary support. Again, I disagreed with him because of the potential for huge support for a candidate with a disability.

Mr. John Dolan

The easiest place for people to get stuck into politics is at local authority level. People can learn their trade there, and it is easier in one's local community to be able to pull support from various relationships that one has. That is not to say one should do that but it is important to encourage people. There will be elections in 31 local authority areas next year. In each local authority there are district electoral divisions. Candidates do not have to get votes all over the county or the municipality, only within a few square miles of where they live. That is a better place to be fishing to try to encourage greater participation in politics.

Ms Joan Carthy

There is also an issue regarding attitudes. If we see someone with a disability trying to get into political life, the sense is that the person will work in the disability space within politics and that there is not much more to him or her. This point is important. Yes, we can be very strong advocates for disability, but there is so much more to our lives than just disability. We might have an interest in, or knowledge of, all sorts of different things. Getting that point across to people who will be voting, that there is more to disabled people than their disability, is very important.

Mr. John Dolan

In my time here in the Seanad I did not feel that there was any difficulty getting people in. Various committees were quite open to having people in and having modules on different issues. The committees were keen to get to know the people who wanted to appear and to hear about their issues. I feel there is an open door in that sense. I did not get any sense that committees did not want to hear from disabled people and their organisations. We have to work on the basis of inclusivity. If someone comes in here and says their tuppence worth before a committee, that can be a big fillip for them. It may encourage them in the right direction. These issues are all part of the process of encouraging people. They can make a clip of their contribution and others can see it. It is serious stuff for people to have participated in the parliamentary affairs of their country and spoken about their issue and the issue of others. There are many different doors that can be pulled to get people on the road.

I worked with Mr. Dolan for four years when he was a Senator. He was a great advocate and I have great admiration for him. I remember Mr. Dolan talking to me about what he called the "small thing" of the wheelchair bays outside the parking bays. He got those installed because he highlighted the issue and worked on it. I remember him telling me that a wheelchair bay is a big thing for someone with a disability. Unless people are in that situation, they will not realise that we need to address issues like these.

I recently met some people with acquired brain injuries. As a politician, I felt I had a lack of information but I also felt that I could do more to help them, be it through funding or other means.

I visited the Irish Wheelchair Association in Carlow where I met a group of 12 people. I listened to the issues they raised, which was very important for me. Transport came up as a huge issue. Many people cannot get transport to a centre or to visit friends or relatives. It then crossed my mind that it must be even harder for them if they have to go into a polling booth to vote because, again, transport is needed. We need to address this issue. We have to look at how we can make access easier for people with a disability.

We only visit our local polling stations during council, European or general elections. The staff in my area in Carlow are excellent. Perhaps it would be a good idea to have one designated person in each polling station to work with people with a disability. They could help people with visual or auditory disabilities or those who are wheelchair users.

The people manning the polling booths go there when there are elections and they do a good job. However, our society is changing. Twenty years ago, I would know almost everyone who came into the polling station. I could greet someone and ask how they were and I would know the family as well. We are in a different world now. The most recent census results showed that Carlow is one of the fastest growing towns in Ireland and that the population of the town had really grown, increasing by 9%, which was really good. There are 62,000 people in County Carlow. I also have to say that Kilkenny city has a smaller population than Carlow town. We have more people in Carlow town. I will be looking for city status for Carlow.

Given how much things have changed, it is important that the commission goes with the times.

We need to go with the times and make those changes. I am wondering what sort of funding will be put in place, because we all work through our local authorities. It is important things are accessible and there is someone there to help. As I said, the people could not be nicer and kinder, but we need to change that a little.

I recently visited a school. Mr. O'Leary spoke about people voting from age 16 and 17 and then they automatically go on the register at 18. This time it was groundbreaking because people did not have to go to the Garda or a peace commissioner. Once people were there, they could fill in the form. Online was the biggest thing for the school. It was an all-girls school with more than 1,000 students and it was online. Every one of them was able to go online within two seconds and go on the list to register. It is not highlighted enough. The communication and information is not out there. Going back to what Mr. Dolan said, we need to ensure there is communication and information for people with a disability so they know about it. Perhaps we should set up some scheme to ensure there is a lift to the polling station or maybe there is some organisation that can help, like the DFI. I was speaking to one or two people in recent weeks, and if a person had a disability and wanted to run for election, they would find it very expensive. What do we need to put in place to help someone who is, perhaps, on a payment, would love to stand for election but knows they cannot afford it? There are the costs of literature and posters. Are we looking at putting something in place-----

Deputy, there is vote.

We might wrap this up rather than coming back in on it. Unfortunately, the vote has just been called so we have a minute or two to wrap it up. Deputy Tully spotted the vote was coming.

I am happy to leave it.

Every week we come in here to this committee it is the same attitude, whether it is a pilot or whatever. Senator Clonan made the point about a changing room here. We will write again on it. Maybe we could have a private meeting on the Wednesday at 4 p.m. in person. If we cannot show it here, how can we expect other places to provide facilities?

The witnesses might reply to Deputy Murnane O'Connor's points via email, if they wish. There was a good point about a person at the polling booth to help people with a disability.

That is so important. I thank Mr. Dolan so much. I am great fan of his, just not because he is from Tipperary.

Mr. John Dolan

Be thankful I am not from Kilkenny.

The meeting is-----

I am Carlow, but my dad was from Tipp.

Mr. John Dolan

I know.

The meeting is adjourned until 8 November.

The joint committee adjourned at 7.13 p.m. until 5.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 8 November 2023.
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