JOINT COMMITTEE ON ECONOMIC REGULATORY AFFAIRS debate -
Tuesday, 22 Jan 2008

Health and Safety Issues: Discussion with HSA.

Chairman

I welcome representatives of the Health and Safety Authority: Mr. Jim Lyons, chairman; Mr. Martin O'Halloran, chief executive; Ms Mary Dorgan, assistant chief executive; and Mr. Robert Roe, assistant chief executive for corporate services.

I draw attention to the fact that while members of the committee have absolute privilege, this privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are also reminded of long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official, by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

We will hear a short presentation from Mr. Lyons, followed by questions from members. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Mr. Jim Lyons

I thank the Chairman. We are happy to have this opportunity to render an account of ourselves as briefly as possible. I am the non-executive chairman of the board of the Health and Safety Authority. I am joined by Mr. Martin O'Halloran, chief executive, Ms Mary Dorgan, assistant chief executive and Mr. Robert Roe, assistant chief executive. The Minister has just appointed a new board to the authority, based on the tripartite system of partnership. There are nominees from the employers' bodies, nominees from employees' bodies and nominees of the Minister. Our role is wide-ranging and, for that reason, we have a number of sub-committees of the board and advisory groups throughout the country. The latter comprise people from all sectors of the economy with great experience. They give advice and help free of charge.

We are subject to an annual audit by the Comptroller and Auditor General, which is laid before the Houses of the Oireachtas. We work under the auspices of the Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment with special responsibility for labour affairs, Deputy Billy Kelleher, and are responsible to the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment. Every year we provide a programme of work based on our three-year strategy. We build in performance indicators to show how well we are doing. This helps us to remain focussed.

This is my second term being chairman and this is one of the leanest organisations with which I have been involved. It is also very personable from top to bottom. We check on Ireland's performance in health and safety annually through EUROSTAT, the statistics office of the EU. We are also audited by other national authorities and benchmarked, if that is an acceptable word, against equivalent EU inspection bodies to ensure high levels of performance.

Originally we worked under the 1989 Act but more recently we have been working under the 2005 Act. We have drafted and redrafted dozens of new regulations and we provide guidance on the Act and the regulations across all sectors of industry. We engage in advance consultation on all the regulations, which is part of our partnership approach. We have provided information to all members of the committee and perhaps they will have questions arising from that documentation. Last Friday the Minister launched our work programme for 2008. I will now pass over to our chief executive, Mr. Martin O'Halloran.

Mr. Martin O’Halloran

I will begin by describing the authority and what we do. We treat every workplace accident and fatality as a tragedy. It is a tragedy for the family and the community and that is our starting point. We are the national body charged with enforcing occupational safety and health in Ireland. Our vision is to inculcate occupational safety and health into all business and into society's thinking generally. We have a budget of €24.5 million for 2008, 197 sanctioned staff and offices in Dublin as well as seven regional offices. We are part of the Government's proposed decentralisation plan.

We have an extremely broad remit and further to what the chairman has outlined, we cover areas such as the agreement on transportation of dangerous goods by road and on the use of chemicals, which comes into force in 2008, following the EU regulation on REACH. Land-use planning advice is regularly provided by the authority to An Bord Pleanála and local authorities. We also look after the transportable pressure equipment directive. We are designated to be a competent authority under legislation other than the Safety, Health and Welfare at Work Act 2005. In the context of the breadth of our remit, we have provided members with a list of the legislation which we enforce.

We have six strategic goals, one of which deals with general awareness. We are also focusing heavily on workers of the future and attempting to inculcate an understanding of occupational safety and health from an early age. We are supportive of industry in that we provide information and guidance. We have a research programme to ensure that our efforts are finely tuned and focused on the high risk areas. We also have a compliance programme where we enforce the legislation. Finally, we continue to examine ourselves to ensure we have the corporate capability to deliver on our remit.

We are audited annually by the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General. Our accounts and the auditor's report are placed before the Houses of the Oireachtas. We believe we have a high level of probity and corporate governance. Our programme of work has just been published. It takes a balanced approach to providing information, guidance, and education as well as ensuring compliance and enforcement.

In 2008 we are taking a focused and targeted approach. The targeting is based on risk profiling. The areas requiring attention are agriculture, fishing, mines, quarries, construction and areas of public administration and the types of activities include transport, falls from heights, slips, trips and falls. We also focus on micro-industry which is showing an increased level of accidents. We are also focusing on management systems and directors of duties. The EU regulation on chemicals will come into force in June 2008, so we have will have an important programme in that area.

In the context of us being supportive of business I would like to give members a sense of the evaluations and the economic impacts. The Indecon report, which was commissioned by the Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment in 2006, Deputy Tony Killeen, found that poor occupational safety and health standards creates an estimated cost to the economy of 2.5% of GNP. Based on the economic outturn in 2007, this would equate to a figure in excess of €4 billion. The construction sector was specifically addressed in that report. Sometimes there is a perception that health and safety is a cost to business but the Indecon report found that the construction sector, when surveyed, estimated that the incremental additional cost of compliance with health and safety regulations was in the region of 2%. However, those in the industry also believed that the benefits accruing from such an investment exceeded the cost.

We carry out evaluations on our interventions. We commissioned a report on our intervention concerning work at heights, which has been, and continues to be, a significant cause of accidents and fatalities. That report found that over a number of years we have invested an estimated €39 million but the return on that investment was estimated to be in the region of €300 million. It is also believed that 300 serious accidents were avoided in 2007 as a direct consequence of that intervention programme.

We are well regarded in Europe and perform at the upper end of the scale. We aspire to achieving the performances currently achieved by countries such as Sweden, Denmark, the Netherlands and the United Kingdom and are certainly in their league at present.

Our chairman mentioned consultation and our participative approach. We collaborate very closely with other State agencies and have memoranda of understanding with the Garda Síochána, the Environmental Protection Agency, the Radiological Protection Institute of Ireland and the Department of Transport. We engage in what might be described as joined-up government and try to gain efficiencies in that way. We also work collaboratively with industry, local authorities, the ESB and many other organisations.

In 2007 there were 67 fatalities and over 7,500 workplace accidents reported. However, the latter figure is probably an underestimate because the Central Statistics Office has estimated that based on its quarterly national household survey, the figure is in excess of 100,000. We carry out approximately 14,000 inspections a year and deal with around 40,000 calls from the public relating to requests for information, complaints, accident reporting and so on. We take a number of prosecutions each year, on indictment and summary.

We believe we are an efficient organisation, that we do things well and are quite lean in our operations. We believe we are effective and have an impact on outcomes nationally. We also believe we take a fair and balanced approach and provide value for money to the Exchequer. I am pleased and proud to be part of the authority and to be given the opportunity to make a difference.

Chairman

Thank you very much. I now invite members to ask questions.

Senator Donie Cassidy

I congratulate the Health and Safety Authority on its work. It has made an enormous difference. For the last five years I have been closely involved in the area of insurance reform. Are the chairman and chief executive of the authority happy with the way premiums are coming down? With regard to the Safety, Health and Welfare at Work Bill, the authority made requests of the Minister and the Department and put forward many commonsense suggestions aimed at addressing the challenges and problems prevalent at that time. Would the representatives like to see anything further done, in terms of legislation, in this regard? We are now at the start of the new five-year Government term and this committee could lead the way in being the conduit from the authority to the Minister. We could work to assist the Government in having insurance premiums reduced further, thus ensuring that fatalities and serious injuries are reduced even more, if not eliminated. The safety regulations of which we are now aware, particularly concerning the construction industry, have brought about a transformation. The representatives of the authority should be given credit for this. I look forward to working with them.

I am interested to hear their views on the insurance industry and how we can ensure that premiums are reduced further.

Chairman

We will take a number of questions and then return to the delegates.

Deputy Leo Varadkar

As I am new to this, some of my questions may be incorrect. Although the 2005 Act made provision for on-the-spot fines, none have been given yet. Why is that and when will they be implemented? If they are implemented, do the delegates think it will improve compliance? There are no regulations on random drug testing in the workplace. What is the progress in that regard?

The following is probably a political question so perhaps the delegates cannot answer it. Why could the HSA not be merged with the National Employment Rights Authority, NERA, or take on NERA's inspectorate role on health and safety in the workplace and enforcement of labour legislation in addition to HSA legislation? It appears that we have two bodies where perhaps we could have one. A report on staffing levels in the HSA suggested that they do not allow the HSA to do its job as its management would like. Do the delegates agree with that report and what contacts have they had with the Minister on it? Are they satisfied with the Minister's decision not to implement that report?

Deputy Seamus Kirk

I thank the Chairman and the executive staff of the HSA. It is an important part of this committee's work to meet the chairpersons and executive staff involved. It helps inform the political system on the work of the range of regulatory bodies. When new companies are established, for example, in the building sector, is there a system of registration with the HSA so that they are well advised of the standards early on? Mr. O'Halloran mentioned collaboration with other State bodies on the training of personnel, for example, FÁS and the apprenticeship schemes, and the liaison between the HSA and the training quotas FÁS operates.

People regard radon gas in buildings as a hidden killer in a domestic dwelling or a premises where people are located on a constant basis. Is the HSA responsible for monitoring radon gas, reacting to reports and encouraging businesses to install monitoring equipment? Does the HSA operate a system of certification for companies and premises? A system of certification would be beneficial to employers who have high insurance premia to pay and who regularly meet the standard threshold demanded by the HSA. Is the HSA responsible for recommendations on building design, particularly new buildings, including, for example, equipment that might be used by building companies? These are just examples; there could be others.

Deputy Joe Behan

I join the Chairman in welcoming the delegates. My question is specific to an incident in Bray, County Wicklow, in my constituency. Mr. O'Halloran mentioned that the HSA considers all these accidents to be tragedies in their own way. The fire in Bray last September in which two firemen lost their lives was a tragedy that was felt not only in the constituency, but throughout the country. I have some specific questions on the ongoing HSA investigation into that fire.

What methodology will the HSA use in conducting the investigation? At what stage is the investigation? When is it expected that the investigation will be complete? Will the results of the investigation be made public? I am grateful to the Chairman for allowing me to ask these questions. They are localised, but may have implications nationally depending on what the HSA discovers in its investigation. It should be noted by the HSA that the five Deputies in the constituency have jointly signed a statement with the families of the firemen who lost their lives calling for another complete, independent investigation into the causes of the fire, whether immediate or ones that had been there for some time. While I have always felt that the HSA and the Garda Síochána are independent, the families of the firemen need to be convinced that the HSA's investigation is as all-encompassing as it can be and I hope the delegates take this opportunity to indicate as fully as possible the scope of their investigation and, most importantly from the families' point of view, what will be the outcome of the investigation.

Chairman

We will take those four questions first and then return to the four other members who are offering questions.

Mr. Jim Lyons

I will ask my colleagues to take the questions relevant to their areas of responsibility.

Mr. Martin O’Halloran

I will deal with the last question first. We extend our sincere sympathies to the families and colleagues of the two men who were tragically killed. The Deputy will appreciate that I will be circumscribed in what I can say because it is an active investigation and there are constraints under the Safety, Health and Welfare at Work Act 2005. Notwithstanding that, I can give some significant general information. The investigation is active and is being carried out jointly by inspectors of the HSA with the Garda Síochána. There is a significant level of co-operation. The scope of the HSA investigation will relate primarily to the provisions of the Safety, Health and Welfare at Work Act 2005 and all the duties that places on employers. The Act requires employers to have hazard identification and risk management, supervision, training and equipment, including personal protective equipment, that is well-maintained and fit for purpose. Those are the areas on which the HSA will focus.

We have a relationship with our colleagues and counterparts in the UK Health and Safety Executive. Through that channel, we have been able to complement our expertise with the services of an internationally recognised forensic analyst with particular expertise in fire safety. The person concerned was involved in a similar tragic incident in the UK in which four firemen were lost. This person's wealth of knowledge and experience in this area is available to the HSA. We have two experienced inspectors who have been involved in other significant, major national cases working on this full-time and they are committed to it. The HSA is committed to investigating this thoroughly and comprehensively without fear or favour and bringing it to a conclusion as speedily as possible.

I cannot give a specific timeframe because there is a requirement to speak with all the parties who have any information to offer. We also await the report of the forensic analyst we have retained. When the investigation is complete and agreed between the HSA and the Garda, a joint file will be prepared and sent to the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions for consideration. As it is an investigative file, that information is privileged and it would require a High Court order to facilitate discoveries.

Under the 2005 Act, there is a provision that entitles the authority to set up a special investigation if it discovers matters that are broader than the specifics we are discussing today. Any such information obtained by that investigation could be made available to the public, although the report should be provided to the Minister in the first instance, as set out in the legislation.

My colleague, Ms Mary Dorgan. will address the question on our collaboration with FÁS in matters related to training.

Ms Mary Dorgan

I will deal with a couple of the questions, one of which concerned our relationship with FÁS. We have a substantial relationship with FÁS, as we do with other State agencies. Much of the training carried out by FÁS is in the area of health and safety so it is a very important organisation to seek to influence. We recently met with the national apprenticeship advisory committee, which sets curricula around all apprenticeship trades, and those curricula come up for review every now and again. We sought to influence the committee over the design of curricula and we believe certain trades, such as the electrical trade, carpentry and joinery, could benefit from a certain approach. We liaise with FÁS continually over training on the construction skill certification scheme and other areas.

The levels of insurance premiums are not within the remit of our authority and we do not directly influence the insurance sector, where there is a free market. However, we influence indirectly and we see evidence of insurance companies approaching industry with our guidelines. We try to promote health and safety management systems in businesses, including small businesses, through which they can build a track record, because most insurance companies set their premiums based on a track record. The best possible way for a company to deal with that challenge is to have a record of not having incidents, such as those mentioned, or other health and safety issues.

The Hay report, mentioned by Deputy Varadkar, was commissioned by our board. It is not the case that the report has not been accepted by a Minister. The report outlines the work we do and our priorities. We are extremely confident that we are adequately staffed to deal with high-risk areas because that is our priority. All organisations have activities in which they could do more if they had the resources. In the meantime, we are confident we have the people to cover essential areas and the Department has been supportive to that end.

Mr. Martin O’Halloran

I will deal with some further questions of Deputy Varadkar. When the authority took on additional responsibility for European chemicals, we submitted a memorandum to Government and it was supportive, allocating additional staff to the authority as a result. We now look forward to obtaining sanction for phase 3 of that process. When we have made a case, the Minister and the Government have been receptive and we will continue to engage in a dialogue going forward.

Deputy Varadkar asked about on-the-spot fines or, as they are described in the legislation, payments in lieu of prosecution. This was considered by the board in 2007 and the programme of work for 2008 includes a reference to bringing forward proposals in that regard. While it is a provision of the 2005 Act, it would require specific regulations for its implementation but work will be continued in 2008 to bring forward the proposals to which I referred. We are currently putting in a new electronic management information system to support the work of the authority and the inspectors. As part of the scoping for that new system, we have made provision to enable an efficient and effective procedure but, ultimately, it is a matter for the board to make a recommendation to the Minister.

We will also evaluate intoxicants in 2008. That will involve looking at legislation of this type in other areas such as the Railway Safety Act 2005. We will evaluate its likely effectiveness and try to determine the best methodologies for bringing forward proposals in that regard.

Employment rights are a policy matter but in the context of an efficiency review, currently under way, we will identify opportunities for synergies with other State agencies. We will be happy to engage in discussions with our departmental colleagues on any initiatives that could lead to cross-agency or interagency efficiencies.

I will ask my colleague, Mr. Robert Roe, to deal with some of Deputy Kirk's questions on the building sector and on registration for companies.

Mr. Robert Roe

I will also answer the question on radon gas. It is a hazard in the home and the workplace. The Health and Safety Authority has agreed a memorandum of understanding with the Radiological Protection Institute of Ireland, which also employs inspectors. When our inspectors visit workplaces which have a high level of radon, as defined by the Radiological Protection Institute of Ireland, they will bring that to the attention of the employer with the recommendation that the employer measure the concentration of radon in the workplace.

The main legislation applying to new companies in the building sector are the Safety, Health and Welfare at Work Act 2005 and the construction regulations, as well as the general application regulations. Those regulations contain no system of licensing, registration or certification but there are requirements that, where projects exceed a certain size, such as one taking more than 30 days to complete, they must be notified to the Health and Safety Authority. Depending on the Health and Safety Authority's perception of the risk involved, the project may be inspected by an authority inspector.

We do not operate a system of certification except in very limited circumstances, such as where transportable pressure equipment is involved, or the transport of dangerous goods by road. However, the Safety, Health and Welfare at Work (General Application) Regulations 2006 contain very specific requirements on building design. The guidelines for those regulations are in the document I have brought today, the guide to the Safety, Health and Welfare at Work (General application) Regulations workplace. It contains very specific requirements relating to exits, entrances, fire protection, vehicle safety, lighting, workspace and temperature, etc.

Deputy Seamus Kirk

What are the powers of obligation on companies to deal with the remediation of radon gas? It is a problem in many areas of the country, though not all areas.

Mr. Robert Roe

If a particular workspace is identified as having high levels of radon, the authority would first request that it undertake remediation measures. If that request is not complied with, the authority has the power to take enforcement action. As most of the emphasis is on high-risk sectors, such as construction, agriculture and quarries, a large proportion of our inspection activity is carried out in areas where, by definition, radon gas is not a problem. The areas where it has been identified as a problem, such as small offices, are those on which we do not tend to carry out many inspections. Where we do carry out such inspections, however, it is an issue our inspectors would be expected to identify to the proprietor.

Deputy Leo Varadkar

I am encouraged by the response regarding possible synergies with other authorities. With regard to the answer on the Hay Group report, I accept fully what was said but some areas further down the list were mentioned that could be dealt with but are not because of current resources or staffing levels. Will the witnesses give some examples of these areas which cannot be assessed in a way that they might if there were more resources? I accept the body cannot have all the resources in the world.

Mr. Martin O’Halloran

We prioritise certain areas and target our effort. We have regard in our programme of work to the six strategic goals and on that basis we carry out risk-based profiling. There are other areas in which we would like to do additional work. We would like to carry out further work in education and the fishing sector. For example, we would like additional ability to work in the agricultural sector, although a very significant intervention in 2006 is beginning to yield very positive results there.

There is scope for increased levels of enforcement across a number of areas but we must make priorities. Non-national workers in Ireland are over-represented in accident statistics and we would like to be able to do further work on that. We are satisfied we make pretty effective use of the resource pool we have, in terms of both people and budget.

Mr. Jim Lyons

We are very conscious that young people in schools today are the employers and workforce of the future. If we can prepare them with the attitude we are trying to spread, it is a way to look to the future. That is a significant task but we are starting it.

Deputy Leo Varadkar

Is any work done in schools currently?

Mr. Jim Lyons

Yes.

Deputy Leo Varadkar

Is there any role involving transition year students?

Mr. Jim Lyons

Yes, my colleague might make a contribution on that.

Ms Mary Dorgan

We have really only established our approach with schools with the appointment of a manager in the area in 2006. We want young people entering work to already have a good attitude towards health and safety or something they would already take for granted. They could then become messengers in the workforce. We want them to come into the workforce with a little bit of competence and some knowledge and awareness of the issue. That has not always been the case.

We work at primary, secondary and third level trying to influence the curriculum most of all. We have worked with the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment, and it has mapped for us opportunities to influence the curriculum and make changes. That is probably our most helpful and strategic action thus far. That drags us into quite a big programme of initiatives where we can work with schools, with a transition year unit being an example. We have designed that as a pilot and it is running in 76 secondary schools.

At third level it is far more difficult as most universities and institutes of technology are autonomous organisations. A curriculum subject which would work for civil engineering in Trinity College Dublin does not necessarily get transferred to UCC or the Waterford Institute of Technology. We must work through the Irish Universities Association and the association of institutes of technology and agricultural colleges to try to influence their curriculum. We have no doubt students are open to the issue and that it could make a significant difference.

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd

I welcome Mr. Lyons and the officials of the HSA. Returning to the last point made by Mr. O'Halloran, the figures supplied are startling in that 12% of the workforce is non-Irish, yet that group makes up 17% of the fatalities. The fatality rate for Irish workers in the construction industry is seven per 100,000 but as high as 22 per 100,000 in the non-Irish workforce. That is a very serious issue.

I acknowledge the work being done but without being critical, surely not enough is being done. Has further funding been sought from the Government or the Minister for Finance for a more high-profile and effective campaign than those used currently? The submission by the delegation states "many of our newer workers tend not to be experienced in the industry they are entering into", and the more dangerous the industry is, the more likely they are to be killed.

The construction industry has SafePass as a requirement to enter into the sector. As a statutory body, surely the HSA must regulate the induction courses. The courses should be mandatory for everyone and be longer and more effective. There is also a question of signage and translations. It is a serious matter which deserves more attention.

I have read comments about the standard applied to road works by the HSA and the significant difference of opinion between the body and county councils regarding what constitutes a working environment. For example, a road appearing to be finished from the county council's perspective may not be finished from the perspective of the HSA. I fully support the standard applied by the HSA but county councils have contended this standard affects efficiency and the completion of projects.

This is a critical national issue. Court cases are pending in this area between the HSA and county councils so perhaps we can be brought up to date on the matter.

I have for a long time taken an interest in the question of health and safety of people working in hospitals and nursing homes. There is a crossover in this area between the risk to a worker and a resident and there is a statutory limitation on how the HSA can apply measures. The MRSA bug has had consequences for our health services and must have significantly affected people working in the sectors. Are relevant reports available and what sort of consultation and communication exists between the HSA and HSE?

With regard to nursing homes I am aware of a home where there were 40 falls in the past year by patients. The legislation does not apply because these people are residents but what communication, if any, is there with the HSE in these places of work? There are very significant health issues of which the HSA might become aware that may not necessarily be relevant to statutory duties but are significant for the people involved in the sector.

Deputy Kieran O’Donnell

I note from the delegation's submission that there was a 34% increase in fatalities between 2006 and 2007. Ironically, between 2005 and 2006, there was a 32% reduction. There were a number of drownings during the year as well. Following from these points, the HSA has indicated its wish to bring fatality rates down to that of the UK, Sweden and Denmark. I assume there is a correlation between the reduction of fatalities and the number of inspectors.

The Hay Group report has been referenced by my colleague, Deputy Varadkar. It is strong in its statements that there must be an increase in the number of inspectors to 153. I understand the HSE has sanction for 197 inspectors. Has the body had discussions with the Minister about getting the extra inspectors, and if so, at what stage are the discussions?

At what stage is the process of the HSA decentralisation to Thomastown in Kilkenny, and what costs have been involved so far? I note a computer system is being installed to allow the process to take place.

Deputy Ciarán Cuffe

I have looked at the worker fatality rates included in the presentation. I want to concentrate on the fishing industry for a moment as there was a tragic and dramatic increase in the number of fatalities last year - 12 in total. However, I note that few injuries were reported last year and the year before and that there was a relatively low level of inspection, which makes one question whether injuries are being reported in the fishing industry to an adequate level. Do the witnesses feel the Health and Safety Authority is undertaking enough inspections in this sector? The authority's chief executive, Mr. Martin O'Halloran, mentioned fishing earlier in response to a question. Inspections seem to outnumber fatalities by a factor of around 100 but the area of fishing stood out as a dangerous sector last year and in previous years. I hope the Health and Safety Authority can increase the number of inspections and examine reporting levels to ensure injuries at sea are reported. I would welcome the witnesses' comments on the fishing sector.

Does the Health and Safety Authority follow up on complaints and queries made via its website by e-mail? This appears to me to be a useful way for members of the public to voice concerns regarding, for example, construction sites where safety gear is not being worn.

Mr. Martin O’Halloran

I will take the questions in reverse order and ask my colleague, Ms Mary Dorgan, to respond regarding fishing, complaints received through the website and the workplace contact unit.

Ms Mary Dorgan

It is true that the fishing industry has the highest rate of fatality and it is the area that has caused us most concern in the past year. The fishing issue does not relate entirely to the matter of inspections and organisations other than the Health and Safety Authority have roles in this area. The maritime safety directorate is involved and we believe we will have most influence when it comes to boats under 15 metres. We are working on a code of practice to be published this year, but this in itself does not mean the industry will sort itself out.

The fishing sector is quite small in terms of employment but the fatality rate is extremely high and we must work directly with fishermen to address this matter. They are conscious of the problem because, to a large extent, it derives from human behaviour, risk-taking and so on. We are now engaging in face to face interaction with fishermen as this is necessary. The number of inspections will be increased but it has been suggested that inspections of boats tied up at port may not change behaviour at sea and the big issue is how we will influence this activity.

In the coming weeks we will meet again representatives of the safety directorate of the Department of Transport and hopefully we will make progress together this year. There will be more fishing inspections this year and hopefully this area will be helped by the emphasis placed on the new code of practice.

Deputy Ciarán Cuffe

The figures relating to the level of reporting of injuries do not stack up; ten reports of injuries have been made, yet there have been 12 fatalities. I suspect the number of unreported injuries may exceed those reported by a factor of ten or more.

Ms Mary Dorgan

The figures do not stack up. Fishing is a hazardous occupation and incidents occur, but go unreported. We will work with those in the industry to ensure they understand that we are trying to prevent fatalities and preserve lives.

Deputy Ciarán Cuffe

I believe there is a legal requirement to report injuries. I do not wish to see the fishing sector over-burdened with bureaucracy but difficulties exist regarding compliance. Fishing is a tough business in which I would not engage for all the tea in China but we should insist on the same level of reporting and the same attention to safety at sea as we would seek on a construction site.

Ms Mary Dorgan

I take Deputy Cuffe's point.

Mr. Martin O’Halloran

I might add that under-reporting is something we experience across a broad range of sectors. We have a database of accidents reported in accordance with the provisions of the general applications regulations and we also examine data collected by the Central Statistics Office and data collected for occupational injuries benefit. We try to correlate this information to determine where under-reporting occurs and we have found that it is a reality in a number of sectors. Under-reporting is acute in the agriculture sector where we hear of fatalities but get few reports of non-fatal accidents.

We use hospital inpatient data to obtain better quality information and this is another example of us working with other agencies to improve the quality of data we receive. While we seek better data, we know the issue is not unique to Ireland because we have compared our experiences to those of agencies across Europe and, regrettably, the challenge exists throughout the Continent.

I will answer some of the other questions shortly but first my colleague, Ms Mary Dorgan, will address the questions relating to the workplace contact unit and queries sent via the internet.

Ms Mary Dorgan

The workplace contact unit takes about 40,000 calls per year and about 20% of these are complaints, many of which come from members of the public and some of which are made by employees regarding workplace practices. Most of the other calls are requests for information. Our policy is to respond to complaints immediately and take action, although not always through an inspector. There are just over 100 inspectors so it is not always possible to send one immediately to deal with a complaint; much depends on its seriousness.

We first establish the name of the employer and the workplace contact unit immediately contacts him or her explaining the allegation and requesting that he or she respond within a specified time. Our policy is to respond quickly to complaints and the process places an obligation on employers to respond. Some complaints result in an inspector visiting a site or workplace without notice.

Deputy Ciarán Cuffe

If the Health and Safety Authority is not given the name of the employer in a complaint, can it follow up using only an address?

Ms Mary Dorgan

It is extremely difficult for us to act without certain details. Occasionally, a member of the public contacts us to say he or she just passed a building site where certain questionable work practices were occurring but without specific information relating to the address or the name of the employer, it is difficult for us to take action. This occurs only in a small percentage of cases because most people who contact us and want us to take action know they must have as much information as possible. A specific address can be sufficient information.

Mr. Martin O’Halloran

I will ask my colleague, Mr. Robert Roe, to deal with Deputy O'Dowd's questions and issues relating to the over-representation of non-Irish nationals in statistics, the possibility of a higher profile campaign, safety standards at road works and the perceived differences in the approach of local authorities, the current status of court cases, methicillin resistant staphylococcus aureus, MRSA, and safety in nursing homes.

Mr. Robert Roe

I will first address Deputy O'Dowd's question relating to the over-representation of non-Irish nationals in statistics. In 2005 and 2006, there were very high fatal and non-fatal accident rates for non-Irish nationals. In 2007, five of the 67 people who died in Irish workplaces were non-Irish nationals. They died in areas such as fishing, food processing and waste recycling. In previous years most of the fatalities had been in the construction sector, so there has been some improvement.

Three years ago there was a very high fatal accident rate, which has been reduced. Some of the things we have been doing to help ensure safety, include new safe system at work plans. These are basic, simple guidelines that apply to the construction sector which is were most of these fatalities occurred. They are mostly pictorial in nature so very little language is required and therefore no matter what languages people speak they can understand them. The guidelines are available in about eight different languages, including Lithuanian, Latvian, Russian, Romanian, Portuguese and Cantonese.

Earlier, I mentioned the safety, health and welfare at work general application regulations which, together with the guidance that goes with them, have new requirements concerning signage. The signage for previous regulations was in English but there has been a change in emphasis so that the signage is now mostly pictorial in nature. There is a requirement on employers to explain the meaning of these signs. That is a new requirement which affects the erection of new signs in all work places. We are also conducting research because while we know that in previous years there has been a high rate of accidents, we are not sure exactly why. Some of it is probably due to language while others may be due to different levels of risk acceptance. Others may also be due to culture - in other words the type of culture people came from and the differences in Irish work practices. At the moment there is a large research project under way to find out the reasons. Once we have a good handle on the reasons we will be looking at a series of specific initiatives in this area.

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd

The figures we got from Mr. Roe today comprised seven per 100,000 nationals and 22 per 100,000 for non-Irish. Notwithstanding everything Mr. Roe has said, and I welcome the changes if they are there, do those figures still stand?

Mr. Robert Roe

They stand for 2006. We gave the committee the 2006 figures because they are the published statistics. I am referring to preliminary statistics because occasionally towards the end of the year we are told about workplace fatalities from the coroner's court that we might not have been otherwise informed of.

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd

Mr. Roe has further information which he is giving me now on that matter.

Mr. Robert Roe

Yes and it is preliminary information so when we publish our statistics report in a couple of months it might be different.

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd

The concern is clearly still there.

Mr. Robert Roe

The concern is still there and it is still a problem. It is still an issue. Approximately 12% of the workforce in Ireland comprises non-Irish nationals and they tend to be concentrated in high-risk sectors or where small numbers are employed. They are in the catering sector, which is high-risk for injury although not for fatalities, the construction sector and areas such as agriculture. It is a significant concern.

We have heard media reports from a range of counties indicating that new standards are leading to major increases in the cost of road works as well as delays. I want to put that in context as these road works are part of the construction sector. A major study of Irish construction firms found that about 2% of the payroll is allocated to health and safety provisions. The payback on that 2% of payroll outweighs the investment; in other words, there is a very good payback. The safety, health and welfare regulations applying to the construction sector have been more or less the same since 1995. New construction regulations were brought out in 2006 the main effect of which was that from later this year all crews working on a roadworks project will be required to have at least one person who has been trained in how to put up safety signs. Except for that, there has been no major change in the legislation concerning roadworks. There have been some changes in the enforcement approach, however. For a good number of years, the resources of the authority were initially concentrated on a traditional end of the building sector - house building and commercial building and construction. We have achieved significant results. There has been a continuous fall in the rate of fatalities and falls from height, which are the areas into which we have put a lot of effort.

In 2005, given the large amount of investment in the national roads programme and the increase in employment, we decided to do an initial series of inspections on roadworks. A good proportion of the roadworks we looked at did not meet the basic requirements of the existing construction regulations or indeed of the guidelines issued by the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government or the Department of Transport. Therefore, we asked the local authorities to present plans to us as to how they intended to improve safety in roadworks. A number of local authorities felt that this was primarily a public safety issue, rather than a worker safety issue and, as such, disputed the ability and jurisdiction of the Health and Safety Authority on this. By agreement with the local authorities a case stated was presented in Cork in November. That case stated concluded and the local authorities and ourselves are currently awaiting judgment. It was a fairly well argued case both on behalf of the local authorities and the Health and Safety Authority. We are awaiting judgment on that as regards the jurisdiction of the authority on road safety.

To get back to the original point as to whether we agree that there is a large cost in health and safety, all the evidence - not just in the construction sector but in any other sector where research has been done both in Ireland and internationally - indicates that there is a good payback. We have not seen evidence that would indicate that roadworks construction differs from any other form of construction.

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd

One of the issues that arose generically is where a county council might do roadworks but may not have the final top put on it. They may go off for a couple of months and do other parts of the county. It is Mr. Roe's contention that it is still a workplace because it is not safe for the workers or the public. I do not have a difficulty with what the HSA is doing. I want to stress that point. It must be safe for the public, including the workers. That is the key point, is it not? The county council finishes were not adequate to meet the HSA's requirements and that is where the cost factor arose from their perspective.

Mr. Robert Roe

Wherever there is a workplace we have a duty to enforce the Safety, Health and Welfare at Work Act and the construction regulations. We feel that if a job is unfinished it is still a workplace. Essentially, that was the nub of the case that was put to the High Court. We are awaiting the judgment of the High Court on that particular point and a range of other related points.

Senator Paul Coghlan

Where work is in progress and for one reason or another it is abandoned for a time, while the particular roadway may not be exactly public but if it is wide enough, can sufficient signage not be erected? The road does not have to be blocked with material. Sufficient signage could go up to allow traffic to use that way where work is abandoned or materials are not available.

Mr. Robert Roe

The Health and Safety Authority has not told specific local authorities what they should do. It has asked them to present us with a plan as to how they would leave this job safe. In the first instance, it is up to the local authority to come up with a way of doing jobs safely. Once they do that they should be in compliance with the legislation.

Senator Paul Coghlan

Suppose it is a Department or a State agency and not a local authority.

Mr. Robert Roe

The law applies to any employer no matter whether it is a State employer or one in the private sector. The Health and Safety Authority enforces legislation equally concerning all employers.

Chairman

What is the position regarding MRSA and nursing homes?

Mr. Robert Roe

There is a commonality in what we have been dealing with in that the primary focus of the Heath and Safety Authority is worker safety in the workplace. That is our primary focus no matter what type of workplace we inspect. If we inspect a nursing home, we will primarily look at areas which cause injuries in nursing homes - for example, manual handling and violence. In our programme of work for this year, we have a new programme on violence in the psychiatric care area. Nursing home patients who are confused can cause injury. These are the types of areas on which our inspectors are concentrating.

However, we do not ignore public safety. Last year, for example, we carried out a programme of inspections in healthcare facilities and where we found inadequate hygiene facilities - for example, lack of washing facilities - we served a number of improvement notices on the health providers requiring them to provide basic washing facilities. However, our emphasis is mainly on worker protection.

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd

Can we view those directives on the website? Can we get a copy of them? I am interested in that area.

Mr. Robert Roe

Some reports are in the public domain and we can make them available to the committee clerk.

In regard to MRSA and nursing homes, this is one of a number of areas in which the remit of the authority comes into contact with that of other regulatory enforcement agencies of the State. For instance, if a work vehicle is involved in a road traffic accident, the Health and Safety Authority, under the health and safety code, and the Garda Síochána, under the road traffic code, both have a legitimate remit. In that situation, to avoid what I would call a "race to the scene", we have a memorandum of understanding with the Garda Síochána to manage that in an efficient way to optimise resources. In such a case, the Garda Síochána would alert us if it considers there is a workplace dimension and that relationship works very well.

Similarly, in the case of hospitals and nursing homes, we have relationships with the public health section in the Health Service Executive and with the Health Information and Quality Authority which have an independent role in this regard. It is an area in which we must liaise and work closely with other agencies of the State.

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd

I came across a small nursing home in which there were over 40 falls of patients over a period of one year. The HSE picked it up in its report but nothing has happened which is not an adequate response from it. If the Health and Safety Authority inspected such a nursing home, what would it do if it noted those falls of patients, notwithstanding the fact it is not part of its statutory duty? Would there be a follow up? I stress that most nursing homes are excellent but a significant number are not. That is the issue at which I am trying to get.

Mr. Martin O’Halloran

That issue came to the attention of an inspector while carrying out an inspection in a nursing home. The part to which the inspector would appeal would be section 12 of the Safety, Health and Welfare at Work Act which refers to the duty to others. The inspector's duty would be to bring it to the attention of the management and to ensure the issue was dealt with by it. However, it would be very difficult for us to take enforcement action on that basis. The level of action we could take would be advisory.

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd

If I wrote to the HSA stating such places had health and safety issues in regard to employees as well as people living in them, I suppose that would be one way to follow it through.

Mr. Martin O’Halloran

Yes.

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd

That is what I will do.

Mr. Martin O’Halloran

I refer to Deputy Kieran O'Donnell's question on staffing and the correlation between fatalities and the staffing resource. As I indicated, we would wish to achieve the same standards as countries such as Sweden, Denmark, the Netherlands and the UK. It is probably reasonable to state that workplace fatalities have some relationship but it is not what I would call a "direct correlation" because in 2007, there were 67 fatalities while in 2006, 50 fatalities were reported to us. We would have achieved a very good performance had that been a sustained one.

As I said at the outset, fatalities are extremely tragic and are at the very worst end of failures of health and safety at work but they are not very good as a measure or an indicator. We have shown a very significant improvement over a number of years through the interventions we have made without there being any significant--

Deputy Kieran O’Donnell

I take Mr. O'Halloran's point but the main thrust of mine was that the authority commissioned an independent report which stated that there should be 153 inspectors. What stage is the authority at in respect of discussions with the Department to get those extra inspectors? The correlation was not the main thrust of my point; I was just showing there was an increase in fatalities. The main thrust of my point concerned an increase in the number of inspectors.

Mr. Martin O’Halloran

The report was commissioned and delivered in late 2007. We had an outgoing board and a new one was appointed in December. We will bring this item to the board and we propose to bring it forward for discussion with the Department to see how we can advance the matter. At this stage, no formal discussions have taken place with the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment or the Minister in that regard.

Deputy Kieran O’Donnell

Was the Hay Group report commissioned by the board or by the Minister of State with responsibility for labour affairs?

Mr. Martin O’Halloran

It was commissioned by the Health and Safety Authority.

Deputy Kieran O’Donnell

I presume it has been presented to the Minister.

Mr. Martin O’Halloran

It has not been formally presented to the Minister because we have a new board which wishes to consider the way forward on that.

Deputy Kieran O’Donnell

When does Mr. O'Halloran expect to present it?

Mr. Martin O’Halloran

We will present it to the new board probably not at the next meeting but at the one after that. We will be guided by the board and will engage in discussions with the Department at that point.

I refer to the Deputy's other question on decentralisation. The Health and Safety Authority has been included in the Government's decentralisation programme and the proposed location for the authority is Thomastown, County Kilkenny. Site procurement is at an advanced stage. There was a planning difficult in regard to a material contravention of the county development plan but I understand that has now been resolved and the proposal is for the OPW to move forward with a planning application.

Deputy Kieran O’Donnell

Has a planning application been formally lodged with Kilkenny County Council?

Mr. Martin O’Halloran

I understand one has not been but I would have to verify that with the OPW.

Deputy Kieran O’Donnell

Will it be a greenfield site?

Mr. Martin O’Halloran

Yes.

Deputy Kieran O’Donnell

It will be a new building.

Mr. Martin O’Halloran

Yes. The authority has been proactive on this matter and has opened an interim office in Kilkenny pending the completion of the site. To date we have 27 staff working from that office with an agreement and understanding that on completion of the new site, they will all transfer. We have achieved a fairly significant result there.

Deputy Kieran O’Donnell

Will all the 197 staff be decentralised to Kilkenny?

Mr. Martin O’Halloran

The proposal is that we will implement decentralisation in accordance with the Government policy which is on a voluntary basis, so that would be the plan. We would wish to retain a presence in a Dublin office to service operationally the east coast and the greater Dublin area which, in terms of business and economic activity, represent a major element but other than that, the proposal is to proceed in accordance with the Government plan on a voluntary basis. We are obviously bound by all national decisions in regard to that.

Deputy Kieran O’Donnell

When does the Health and Safety Authority propose to apply for planning? How many staff will actually be decentralised to Kilkenny? How many staff will be retained in Dublin?

Mr. Martin O’Halloran

The Government plan for the authority is to decentralise 110 people to Thomastown. We have 27 staff there at present. We propose to secure new interim offices in Kilkenny which will accommodate up to 50 staff. The intention is to continue with that plan. However, given the FÁS-SIPTU decision in the Labour Court, we are bound by the Government decision that it is a voluntary move by any individual. On the basis of the level of staff turnover and new recruitment, it will be a number of years. However, we could have that number up to 50 within two years and we will continue with the programme.

Deputy Kieran O’Donnell

I presume Mr. O'Halloran has engaged in a process with the staff. How many have voluntarily decided to decentralise?

Mr. Martin O’Halloran

Currently, there are 27 staff decentralised to the interim office in Kilkenny and all of those were on a voluntary basis.

Deputy Kieran O’Donnell

Are others seeking to decentralise at present?

Mr. Martin O’Halloran

At present, no. We will have new recruits whose contract will determine that their employment base will be Kilkenny and that is the basis upon which we are moving forward.

Deputy Kieran O’Donnell

Their number will be relatively small.

Mr. Martin O’Halloran

There would be staff turnover of up to 8% in the authority on an annual basis. I agree the number is relatively small, but we must observe the requirement that it is done on a voluntary basis. However, we are making good progress.

Deputy Kieran O’Donnell

When will the planning application for the building in Kilkenny be lodged?

Mr. Martin O’Halloran

We have been advised by the OPW that it will happen in early 2008. I must check further and revert to the clerk to the committee if the OPW has any further update for us in that regard.

Deputy Joe Behan

I have a short series of supplementary questions relating to the reply I received from the chief executive regarding the fire in Bray. He mentioned at the end of his statement that in certain circumstances he has the power to instigate a special investigation to produce a special report on any implications of the findings that might be relevant nationally. When and how can that decision be made? Must Mr. O'Halloran wait until the completion of his investigator's report on which the board will make a decision or will he wait until the DPP has made a determination if that is required? How will that investigation take place?

Mr. Martin O’Halloran

That provision, under section 70 of the Safety, Health and Welfare at Work Act, is an operational function delegated to the chief executive. The process for determining is if, in the investigation, we identify areas that are of significance nationally, we can carry out a special report and bring those to the attention of the Minister. However, we probably cannot do it if there is a risk that any information that would then enter the public domain would prejudice any actions that may be taken by the DPP and, therefore, we would probably have to consult with the DPP.

However, if matters relating to standards of equipment, levels of training and work practices are generic in the findings and do not prejudice matters, we can bring those to the attention of the fire authorities quite quickly. We will be reviewing that on an ongoing basis, having regard to the fact that we do not wish to prejudice any investigation or proceedings that might be envisaged.

Deputy Joe Behan

If there are lessons to be learned and implications, I would not like to see a situation where fire authorities are not informed of lessons that may be learned, even if it is at the risk of prejudicing the result of an investigation. In other words, if there is a threat to life and limb nationally by way of whatever may or may not have happened in that particular case, that information should be imparted to the fire authorities as speedily as possible. That is an important factor to bear in mind.

Mr. Martin O’Halloran

I assure Deputy Behan and the committee that we are acutely aware of this need and obligation and we have had some initial discussions to determine if there are such aspects of a generic nature emerging from the investigation which we would have a duty of care to bring forward at the earliest possible date. We are acutely aware of that and, obviously, we are trying to find the correct approach to bring any such issues forward.

Chairman

I thank the Health and Safety Authority for coming in today and I thank the members for the worthwhile discussion.

The meeting is adjourned until 4 p.m. on Tuesday, 5 February. If at all possible, I ask members to relate to their party members and colleagues that we would like them to be here at 4 p.m. for a five or ten minute discussion about our policy over the next two months.

The joint committee adjourned at 3.25 p.m. until 4 p.m. on Tuesday, 5 February 2008.