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JOINT COMMITTEE ON ECONOMIC REGULATORY AFFAIRS debate -
Tuesday, 6 Jul 2010

Role and Functions: Discussion with Irish Credit Bureau

We are here today to discuss the operations and other related matters of the Irish Credit Bureau. On behalf of the committee, I welcome Mr. Séamus Ó Tighearnaigh, chief executive officer, and Mr. Gerard O'Neill, director, Irish Credit Bureau.

By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they give this committee. If they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in relation to a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise nor make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

The meeting will be webcast live and therefore can be seen on the Internet. I ask that all mobile telephones be switched off as their signals disrupt the signal going to the webcast. I ask Mr. Ó Tighearnaigh to proceed with his presentation.

Mr. Séamus Ó Tighearnaigh

I am CEO of the Irish Credit Bureau, ICB, and I am here today with my colleague Gerry O'Neill, executive director of ICB. I thank the Joint Committee on Economic Regulatory Affairs for inviting us here today and I hope our presentation to it this afternoon will be beneficial. On previous visits to this committee it was necessary to emphasise that ICB is a credit reference agency and not in any way a credit ratings agency. The functions are completely different, a point on which I will expand if necessary.

Our presentation today will include background to the ICB, description of the information it holds and recent regulatory developments. Our slides include a sample ICB credit report for information purposes upon which, of course, the committee may seek clarification as to detail during questions. I suggest the committee examine the slide while I make my contribution and move on to the second slide, which covers the background of ICB including its history, objectives, structure and salient measurements regarding its current status.

It was formed in 1965 and is owned by its members which are mainly financial institutions. Its objectives, with the support of regulatory authorities and consumer groups, are to assist in lowering the cost of credit, enable faster decisions in providing credit, aid the avoidance of over indebtedness and assist in fraud prevention. It complies fully with the Council of Europe convention on data protection and subsequent Data Protection Acts 1988 and 2003. As such, private individuals may inspect their own reports and approximately 40,000 of our citizens every year so do.

ICB has an electronic library containing information on the performance of credit agreements between financial institutions and borrowers. Information is registered to ICB by its members. A credit agreement is broad and can include mortgages, car loans, personal loans, leasing agreements or hire purchases agreements, to mention the most popular types. Credit card details are included in the ICB library but not yet comprehensively. It is to be hoped we will reach that point within a year. Overdraft agreements are only provided on a negative basis, that is, where they are in the public domain and legal proceedings have issued. They are not structured credit types and are usually short term, therefore they do not lend themselves to being in the ICB database.

The information regarding account holders is held to ensure distinction between surname, forename, date of birth and address data. In respect of each loan held we have the information provided. The most important information is the repayment history indicators where we keep a rotating window for 24 months as to whether in each of the past 24 months repayments have been made on the day or if not what level of arrears have been encountered, namely, one, two or three months and so on, which the committee can see from the sample report.

On the database, there are more than 155 active members, the bulk of whom are credit unions. We anticipate that credit unions will be by far the largest participant in ICB. There are more than 5.5 million accounts. When the credit card information is completed the figure will be close to 6.5 million. It is a positive database, unlike most other countries who register only negative information. In ICB all information is registered, with consent.

During the recession which, it is to be hoped, we are moving away from, we received fewer than 5,000 inquiries per day but the average is some 5,500. In 2007, it was closer to 11,000 on certain days. It is now closer to 40,000 people per annum; I understand the exact figure is 38,500, but it is increasing. The service is 100% automated. The data is retained for five years once the loan is completed, paid off or another arrangement is made. It is important to stress that we do not make lending decisions, rather, we are merely electronic librarians and our primary role is to be a fair referee to the members on the one hand to assist fair lending and to the data subjects on the other to ensure their records are complete, accurate and up to date.

We have included a sample credit report and I apologise if the font sizes are too small, which I suspect they are. Our website, www.icb.ie, contains all the information. There is a covering letter and a sample of the identification information. The second slide on second page of the sample states that there are 24 indicators. In that instance there is a small tick beside 24 down to 1 which means that in each of the past 24 months the account has been paid on the nail. That is the most pertinent information. The individual has a second agreement and as the committee can see in the sample report in the most recent month it has been paid up to date. In the month before that it was in arrears for a month or two. It is open to lenders to assess, having regard to the multiplicity of accounts that may exist and the particular payment performances, whether an individual, to their minds, constitutes a good credit risk.

Scoring is a particularly sophisticated technology developed in America and is used internationally in most western economies. To try to condense the pattern of behaviour and borrowing information into a score which intimates whether, having regard to empirical evidence, the profile is high or low risk, or somewhere in between. On our website we explain how the score is calculated and its significance.

I would like to outline how recent regulatory developments impact on ICB. I have listed six, the sixth of which, thanks to some colleagues in the fifth estate, was issued at 3.30 p.m. today in the form of the mortgage arrears and personal debt review report, on which I will make some comments. On the discussion paper published by Central Bank entitled Banking Supervision: Our New Approach, we were not, unfortunately in communication with the Central Bank before its preparation or publication. The report states that ICB focuses solely on retail and SME sectors in terms of capturing data relating to credit activity. Such restricted activity does not fall within the objectives of ICB. We never set out to limit our scope in that sense.

We have multi-million loans registered by some banks and of course we are reliant upon individual banks and, moreover, their customers as to what is registered given that under our current data protection legal framework consents must be captured. Against this background, I ask the committee to please be aware of a statement made by the Data Protection Commissioner that "securing consent to register with ICB secures an obligation upon the Bank" to register credit agreements. As I understand it, the position the Data Protection Commissioner comes from is that it is only fair, if one intends to record data on a citizen, that one records all the data pertinent to that citizen and not a piecemeal version of it.

The ICB currently operates in a voluntary consent environment, not a mandatory data registration environment, and we must comply with current data protection laws. Therefore, I take issue with the statement within the report that the ICB as currently structured would fail to constitute a central credit register having regard to the voluntary reporting environment. The ICB holds over 5.5 million accounts. A mandatory reporting environment would clearly increase volumes significantly.

The Law Reform Commission report of 2009 and the recent interim recommendations in its interim report affects the ICB in several areas. First, it calls for review in the context of the ICB of mandatory reporting and mandatory inquiries to ensure fair and proper credit worthiness assessment; second, it recommends review of participation by utilities and telecommunication companies so that bodies such as MABS might have regard to the total indebtedness of an individual when it is assisting that individual in tackling such issues; third, it calls for alternative sanctions to imprisonment following the ruling by Mrs. Justice Laffoy in the McCann case, while in the French case, Mme Neiertz used the French central bureau as a sanction to balance the rights of debtors and creditors rather than imprisonment; and finally, it makes recommendations on the structure of the ICB ownership.

The Central Bank Governor, Professor Honohan, in his recent report of June 2010 emphasises the need for greater risk assessments and underwriting standards. The ICB strongly believes it can assist in this objective. Mr. Regling and Mr. Watson stress the need for a strong central credit reference agency across the spectrum as a means towards preventing the errors of the last decade, and they go into quite some detail on that issue. SI 281 of 2010 was transposed into Irish law on 11 June 2010. I would highlight Article 8, which refers to the need to have a database sufficient to enable creditworthiness assessments and states that this database should be consulted. Article 9 refers to making that database available to countries other than the State on a non-discriminatory basis and also requires that if an institution declines an application and has used a credit reference agency, the institution must at no cost write to the citizen stating that the application has been turned down and that it had consulted, for example, the ICB, giving its mail address, web address and telephone numbers, and explaining that the citizen is free to access the record and assess whether it is fair.

To correct a point I made earlier, the ICB has signed and forwarded a memorandum of understanding to the Department of Finance which has yet to be concluded but which we believe will assist the State meet the requirements of the EU consumer credit directive as transposed into Irish law.

Finally, as the report has just been published at 3.30 p.m., I have not had an opportunity to study it in detail. However, I understand it deals in several respects with Irish credit bureaux and the need for a centralised credit reference agency. I thank the committee for its time and attention.

I welcome the delegation. How many credit unions are on the books of the ICB?

Mr. Séamus Ó Tighearnaigh

Approximately 175 have applied for membership. However, the process of applying for membership is clearly predicated on the individual board of the individual credit union deciding that this is the way to go, passing a resolution and issuing a letter to us, and we then go through various stages. The history of the past four or five years has taught us that, initially, the big speed bump was technology. I am glad to say we are working in close co-operation with the IT suppliers to the credit union movement, and the Pareto principle applies in that the vast bulk of suppliers of IT services to the credit union movement are now ICB-compliant. Approximately 70 have gone right through the alphabet from A to Z and are actually registering information and making inquiries. There are others at various stages, such as testing, making inquiries, about to register data, finalising contracts and educating their staff in all aspects of data protection law, which is crucial. I am proud to say we have not had any difficulties in that area. It has all worked well and our ambition is to welcome into membership each and every credit union. However, there are, for some, resource and IT issues which are being examined.

In terms of loan data held, Mr. Ó Tighearnaigh refers to historical indicators and a rotating window of 24 months. What does he mean by that?

Mr. Séamus Ó Tighearnaigh

For example, if I took out a car loan of €20,000 for five years, for the first two years the window of 24 months will reflect the period from the first month until the 24th month, and only that period. When the lender moves into year three of the loan, the year one history falls off and the year two history goes into the category for the first 12 months and year three goes into the category for the second 12-month period, and so on. This has been agreed with the Data Protection Commission and the other stakeholders. This is a lifeline to a person who gets into trouble. To continue the example, the person may have had a few stumbles along the way to paying off his five-year car loan. However, it is only the last 24 months, namely, years four and five, that apply, and if he had hiccups along the way to that, they are lost in the system because years one to three fall off. Therefore, it is an encouragement to people who have hiccups to get it right because it is only the last 24 months that are frozen, and they are then held for five years.

In effect, the Irish Credit Bureau is the vessel which institutions which are members will go through in terms of loan histories and so on. If I understand Mr. Ó Tighearnaigh correctly, there could a person who, for example, hits a snag in the last two to three years, which is what is invariably happening, despite having had a perfect credit history for the previous ten or 15 years, and this is taken into account and the ICB's systems are designed in such a way as to allow for this eventuality. In other words, a person may have a very good credit history but then hits difficulties and the system would take that up on an overall basis when assessing the person.

Mr. Séamus Ó Tighearnaigh

The system is not a panacea. It strives to find a fair balance which is an inducement to people to get their house in order if they have had hiccups through the 24-month window. Over and above the 24-month window, an increasingly used and important option is the ability for an individual to put his or her statement in their own language to explain the position, although there are of course restrictions regarding defamatory, denigratory and vexatious statements. I have the job of looking through these statements and, for the most part, in 99 out of 100 cases, they involve common sense matters regarding marital separation, direct debits, changing bank accounts and so on. That 200 words goes up, per account if the person so wishes, and must be issued with every distribution of the record. Therein lies the safety net which is our best attempt to deal with the circumstances outlined by the Deputy.

What one wants to see, if it is put on a statutory footing, is that the system and its underpinning assumptions do not militate against somebody who is ordinarily very compliant in terms of his or her repayments but who may hit the wall at some stage during his or her repayment schedules. My main fear concerns those I have referred to MABS or who would have had dealings with credit unions. What I have found is that credit unions have acted as a type of lender — I will not call it a lender of last resort, but they have cushioned people who have dodgy credit histories against moneylenders, who are largely unregulated. I have seen situations in which credit unions have kept the wolf from the door for certain people with bad credit histories. What I am anxious to find out is whether the Irish Credit Bureau's system will take that into account or see it as a mitigating factor.

Mr. Séamus Ó Tighearnaigh

I am happy to answer that question, although I will look for guidance from the Chairman. A credit union within our membership, which I will not identify, has publicly made a statement in this regard. It would probably be better not to mention its name. It was quite insightful. It mentioned the case of a lady whose son was 20 years old and in New York illegally — he did not have the correct papers — and was afraid of coming back for his 21st birthday because he feared he would not be able to return to the US. He therefore decided to have his 21st birthday celebration in New York. His mother needed a loan for the hotel and flights and went to this particular credit union.

This case was used as an example at a conference of credit unions, and some credit union representatives made the same point from the floor as the Deputy has just made, namely, would the existence of a negative credit history preclude us from taking a broader approach to helping a member? In this instance, the credit union considered the lady's credit record, with her consent, and it was not good because of marital separation and a delay in selling a house because of the property market slowdown. However, it raised the matter with her, and she said that as soon as the house was sold the credit union was first on the list. It went ahead and granted the loan. In that case the ICB report assisted the person because it was used as a means for the credit union to understand her needs. It went ahead with the loan and she attended her son's 21st birthday celebration. In that instance it was explained by the credit union that the ICB report deepened the credit union's understanding of the woman's position and its ability to assist her, so it gave her the loan.

I accept the point.

How many moneylending organisations, which charge rates of up to 100%, are on the books of the Irish Credit Bureau?

Mr. Séamus Ó Tighearnaigh

In the utmost good faith, if I said none I would be being disingenuous, but technically the answer is none. However, having been regulated by the Financial Regulator, we have received two applications, which are not yet concluded, but I anticipate they will be. There are people who catalogue merchandise; this model is coming from Britain and they have a typical APR of 29.9%. It is not for us to counsel them; we are librarians. They have received regulation and made applications. There are other laws to have regard to, such as competition laws. It is not for us but for powers greater than us to determine whether they are regulated entities and their rights once they are regulated entities. At the moment the answer is nil, but if I were asked the same question in a few months time I would expect the answer would be two.

What would be the implications of putting all this on a statutory footing? It would obviously increase the bureau's operations significantly.

Mr. Séamus Ó Tighearnaigh

It would, obviously. However, that is the tail rather than the dog. What would be the benefit for Irish society? Can I be objective?

What is Mr. Ó Tighearnaigh's view on that?

Mr. Séamus Ó Tighearnaigh

I could get into trouble for saying these things. If I came from Mars and was faced with the logic of having a credit reference agency, I would say "Make it work. Make it a proper credit reference agency."

The bureau is not a statutory body, so Mr. Ó Tighearnaigh can speak freely.

Mr. Séamus Ó Tighearnaigh

I have had frustrations. For example, what I call — not in any racist way — the Polish factor. Over the last number of years our friends from Poland have come and helped this country. For economic reasons some are going back, and they want to take their credit histories with them as a type of passport. They want to go back to Poland, get married and apply for a mortgage using their Irish credit reports. Of the 40,000, quite a number are people who wish to use their hard-earned credit histories as passports. Sometimes a person comes to us and I must point out that his or her credit history is not complete because it is missing a mortgage from X Bank. That is frustrating for them and for me, and it also causes other complications. If one is a responsible lender and one accesses a record that is not complete, one is perhaps not making an optimal lending decision, which is not in anyone's interests. That has been a bone of contention between me and others, and I have not made friends with 100% of people along the journey.

Some of my questions have been covered already. We had this discussion a couple of years ago before any recession or banking disaster. It was three years ago to the day — before all the bad news.

The financial institutions run the bureau, is that correct?

Mr. Séamus Ó Tighearnaigh

In a sense, they——

They organise it, they own it, we could say.

Mr. Séamus Ó Tighearnaigh

If we netted down subsidiaries and considered only groups, there are probably about 16 shareholders. Thus, not all of the members are shareholders. It is an historical factor. The shares were issued in 1989. AIB Group has about 17% of the equity and Bank of Ireland has another 17%, while Ulster Bank has 14% to 15%. The amounts go all the way down to 1%. They nominate a board of directors consisting of myself and Mr. O'Neill as executives and seven others, who tend to come from the pool of nominees from shareholders. We are the executives in the sense of the day-to-day running of the bureau, but naturally we must agree large or strategic issues at board level.

If the State wanted to take over the running of the bureau, would it have to set up a new bureau, or would it be an option, after negotiation, to take over this one? It is an issue that some of us have raised and we have got nowhere. I do not understand why the State does not own and run the bureau.

Mr. Séamus Ó Tighearnaigh

For reasons of diplomacy I must say this is not my domain. It is not for me to address that issue. What I will say is that other bodies — the Law Reform Commission and, more recently, Regling and Watson and Professor Honohan — have addressed these issues, and the report that was issued at 3.30 p.m. today also has something to say about it.

Regling and Watson stated in their report that if there had been proper registration of loans, it would have gone some way towards preventing the errors of the last decade. Would it have made a big difference?

Mr. Séamus Ó Tighearnaigh

If I can be objective, I will simply say this. We all know of high-profile individuals who made strange year-end balance sheet arrangements. Had the loans been required to be registered on a statutory basis, and were it a criminal offence not to so register, I do not think we would be waiting for two years to see the law take its course.

Do we know the percentage of unregistered loans?

Mr. Séamus Ó Tighearnaigh

I have no idea.

Could Mr. Ó Tighearnaigh take a guess at it?

Mr. Séamus Ó Tighearnaigh

An article published yesterday suggested that some banks are not registering loans at the moment because everyone is in arrears and, were they to register all those loans, in two years' time when everything is, I hope, back on the rails, there would be no one to lend to because everyone would have problematic credit histories. That makes no sense to me.

To clarify the working of the bureau, if a bank registers a loan with the ICB, where does the information on missed payments and so on come from?

Mr. Séamus Ó Tighearnaigh

The banks.

They give it to the ICB, or the ICB has access to it?

Mr. Séamus Ó Tighearnaigh

Every month the banks supply to us with a full electronic file covering every single loan registered.

There is a lot of work involved.

Mr. Séamus Ó Tighearnaigh

It tends to be automated. In fact, it is better automated, because if there is an error, it tends to be systemic — one can find out how it happened, fix it and make sure it does not happen again. I will give an example of how a totally automated process is better. Let us suppose Séamus Ó Tighearnaigh has a car loan and he is two months down at the end of June. If, at the end of July, Bank of Ireland sends up an electronic file to say Séamus Ó Tighearnaigh is seven months down we would immediately reject that and say, "He was two months at the end of June. How can he be seven months at the end of July?" There is that type of in-built auditing.

The Irish Credit Bureau's system would point it out.

Mr. Séamus Ó Tighearnaigh

Exactly. There is in-built auditing and integrity checking.

That is quite good. People do not know how to manage their credit rating. A simple thing such as drawing cash with a credit card, can muck up one's credit rating. I have discovered that people have been refused loans because drawing cash on a credit card is seen as something wrong.

Mr. Séamus Ó Tighearnaigh

That would not appear on our records.

I know people who have had problems getting loans because of that. It has only happened in the last year. There are rules Joe Public does not know about.

Mr. Séamus Ó Tighearnaigh

I am not aware of those, I must confess. They certainly do not impinge on the operations of ICB. They would be internal to a particular bank.

Mr. Séamus Ó Tighearnaigh

I have to confess, in my stupidity or whatever, I have from time to time pulled the wrong card out of my wallet and only when I got my statement saw I had been charged €2 or €3. I have the odd word with my wife, who tends to make the same mistake. I would hate to think that affected my credit rating.

I will not question Mr. Ó Tighearnaigh's passwords. In general, is it true to say the ICB does not give advice to the public on how to manage credit rating? That is not its job. People are, generally, bad at it or are not even aware they should do it. It then comes back to bite them.

Mr. Séamus Ó Tighearnaigh

There are two things I will say. The first is, "get it in writing". All too often there is a breakdown where the individual comes to us and says, "I met him at the greyhounds, asked if there was any chance he'd give me an extra month, he said that should be no problem and I thought I was good for an extra month". The banker's side of the story is, "I thought he was going to come in and see me and get letters and sort it out". Getting it in writing is vital. If one meets in a greyhound stadium, or wherever, one should say, "Could you post that out to me?" and chase it up. In my experience, that might have happened in the past when the computer systems were in managers' heads as they walked around the town. I do not think that happens today. Things are centralised and those sort of casual arrangements usually lead to difficulties.

If someone has a reason for missing payments which is not disclosed does their story go on the report?

Mr. Séamus Ó Tighearnaigh

If they so wish. What they must do is write in and say, "I want to put up these 200 words on that particular account". Only today, I saw three examples of that. One was a chap who, because of the recession, has moved to England to work in construction. He did not have a bank account and had to cash his cheque in England. His story was that he would then visit Ireland every four or five weeks. Unfortunately, he sometimes did not have time and often was in Ireland just for a weekend when the credit union was not open. Nevertheless, he always paid off all the arrears and often paid well in advance. However, he had this sort of up-and-down record, because of his job and his location in England. The credit union, on his behalf, wrote in and, with his blessing, asked to have his statement added to his account. It said he had always paid off in full but because of his job and because he did not have a bank account he could not set up a direct debit and his repayments were done in batch loaf rather than sliced pan style. That has gone up on his record and any time that account goes out to a bank that statement will be attached to it.

If a credit union is not a member is it allowed access to information?

Mr. Séamus Ó Tighearnaigh

No.

It has to be a member to get information.

Mr. Séamus Ó Tighearnaigh

Correct.

Is there a negative aspect to the State getting involved in running the ICB type of service?

Mr. Séamus Ó Tighearnaigh

I do not want to be facetious when I say, "Who owns Anglo Irish Bank, EBS and Irish Nationwide?" Those three are shareholders in ICB; and I will not even go into AIB and Bank of Ireland.

Things have changed in recent times. However, there is no reason for the State not to do it.

Mr. Séamus Ó Tighearnaigh

Deputy English said that. I did not say it.

If there is a statutory requirement that loans be registered, what sort of penalty would be required to make sure that would work? One could still hide a certain gentleman's loan, especially if it is a €120 million overdraft. What kind of penalty would be needed to make the legislation workable?

Mr. Séamus Ó Tighearnaigh

The fairest way to answer that question, with the Chairman's permission, is to ask what does a banker do who gives out loans irresponsibly. Does he do any favours to his staff and their employment continuity or to his shareholders? In particular, does he do any favour to the person to whom he is lending and who may become over-indebted? Moreover, does he do anything for the banking system, in so far as he is putting up an incorrect record of a person's credit history which may induce other banks to make mistakes they otherwise would not have made? At one extreme, one would say not playing by the rules is very bad societal behaviour and the sanction should reflect that.

That will work if there is good corporate structure, but not if the boss is breathing down an official's neck and it is his loan. This is the issue.

Mr. Séamus Ó Tighearnaigh

Is that not the issue we faced in recent months and years with power going in a certain direction?

We have to find a way of preventing that.

Mr. Séamus Ó Tighearnaigh

Therefore, the sanction has to be greater. If we to try to defeat that unbalanced power we must make it hurt.

I thank the delegates for their presentation. It occurs to me that they are not the stereotypical librarians I come across. They should be wearing dickie bows and so on.

Mr. Ó Tighearnaigh is secretary general of the Irish Finance Houses Association. Who are they? Are they linked to the Irish Banking Federation?

Mr. Séamus Ó Tighearnaigh

They are not. The Irish Credit Bureau was started in 1963 by people who were engaged in car finance. The old finance houses, such as Beaumakers, Mercantile Credit and UDT, set up the Irish Finance Houses Association. From this remove it is hard to believe they set up the Irish Credit Bureau, and hence the connection. The connection is one of history and legacy and not one someone would make if they came down from Mars. The Irish Finance Houses Association has in its membership subsidiaries of the banks, such as Bank of Ireland Finance, which are engaged in asset finance, car finance and so on. It exists, predominantly, to deal with matters that affect finance houses, such as taxation rules regarding leasing of plant and equipment. It has dealings with the regulatory authorities, but not under the auspices of the Irish Banking Federation.

Only approximately 105 credit unions out of the 414 in the State have become members of the Irish Credit Bureau. Is it expensive to subscribe to the body or is it that credit unions feel they know their customers well enough, because they deal, mostly, with their own local areas? I wonder at the very low subscription from credit unions.

Mr. Séamus Ó Tighearnaigh

I agree with Deputy Morgan. I would prefer to see 414 credit union members than 175. Approximately 175 have gone through the application but some have not gone through all the hoops. The big speed bump we hit, once the hearts and minds were on side, was technology.

For the larger credit unions the cost of joining is €5,000. After that, they pay exactly the same per unit fee. The €5,000 is a once-off fee.

I assume there is an annual payment.

Mr. Séamus Ó Tighearnaigh

No, there is not. Having regard to the non-profit status of credit unions, two or three smaller credit unions with an aggregate membership of fewer than 10,000 members, may share the €5,000 between them. I do not think cost is a particular hurdle. The cost of taking an individual credit union on, in terms of training, technology and data protection, is much more than that. I do not think cost is a hindrance.

In the current economic downturn, people are liable to miss one or two credit card payments or car loan repayments. Mr. Ó Tighearnaigh has already said that the last 24 months are the critical part of that. Will a good customer who meets his or her repayments, by and large, be penalised if he or she falters once or twice in the last 24 months? I suggest that would be unfair. If a person who has got a new promotion at work applies for a relatively minor loan to upgrade his or her car or add a new bedroom to his or her house, is he or she likely to be refused because he or she missed a payment?

Mr. Séamus Ó Tighearnaigh

It is most unlikely. If one has four loans, an intelligent underwriter will have regard to all of them rather than just one of them. I did not give the name of the credit union I mentioned, although I said it is a large credit union. It is open to the bank to ask a customer why he or she encountered a glitch. The customer can say it happened when he or she was changing jobs or between direct debits. If we had a properly functioning and normalised credit granting environment, it is most unlikely that somebody would turn down the opportunity to issue a loan for a profit because of something that was clearly irrelevant in the overall scheme of things.

We know about the need for better risk assessment and underwriting standards when dealing with credit applications. Mr. Ó Tighearnaigh has told us the ICB strongly believes it is best placed to deal with this. What steps would be necessary to cast it from its current role into such a role? I do not know if substantial steps would be required.

Mr. Séamus Ó Tighearnaigh

It has happened in other countries. That is the fairest thing.

A legislative footing would be needed.

Mr. Séamus Ó Tighearnaigh

Correct.

We are responsible for dealing with that. Does the ICB have a need for infrastructure?

Mr. Séamus Ó Tighearnaigh

No. It is already in place.

It needs to have the authority to do it. Would experience be needed for the actual assessment?

Mr. Séamus Ó Tighearnaigh

An instruction could go out to one of the banks whose shareholding is now held by the citizens, to the effect that every single loan has to be registered and, if not, a sanction will be imposed. The infrastructure is in place. I do not think experience is required. A well-written article in a national newspaper made the point that the Data Protection Commissioner would have to be satisfied that the data protection laws had been amended to facilitate that. Under the current voluntary reporting system, in which informed consent is a pre-requisite to data registration, such change would be required.

I thank Mr. Ó Tighearnaigh and Mr. O'Neill for attending today's meeting and discussing these matters with us. At its next meeting, the committee may consider the Green Paper on EU regulation.

The joint committee adjourned at 4.45 p.m. sine die.
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