JOINT COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND SCIENCE debate -
Thursday, 13 Jan 2005

Union of Secondary Students: Presentation.

Chairman

We are meeting with the representatives of the Union of Secondary Students. This meeting has been convened to discuss the work of the union and related issues with its representatives. On behalf of the Joint Committee on Education and Science, I welcome the following representatives of the union: Hazel Nolan, president; Oisín O'Reilly, vice-president and Clare McMahon, secretary. They are very welcome.

Before we begin I draw their attention to the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege but this privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I invite Ms Nolan to make her presentation on behalf of the Union of Secondary Students.

Ms Hazel Nolan

The Union of Secondary Students is a unique organisation in that it is set up by and for second level students. It is an extremely democratic organisation whose representatives are elected by democratically elected representatives who attend our annual general meetings and general assemblies.

The organisation was set up in 2001 during the strikes by the Association of Secondary Teachers Ireland to voice the opinion of students on their education because during that time no one listened to them and they needed a voice to express their views on their education. This had not previously been available to them. The union has developed rapidly over the past four years to gain 40,000 members, and continues to develop. For example, the numbers attending our annual general meeting have risen from 40 to 300 and hundreds attend our general assembly.

We have strong working relationships with the other partners in education and are interested in working with them. Our organisation does not exist to oppose everything but to work with the partners to establish the best means for students and all the partners. We have strong links with the Association of Secondary Teachers Ireland, the Teachers Union of Ireland and other organisations involved in youth work such as the National Youth Council of Ireland. We also work on an international level with the Organising Bureau of European School Student Unions, the European representative of second level students.

The union consists of the council of schools, made up of representatives from individual student councils who attend our annual general meetings and general assemblies. Student councils elected these students. The council is the decision-making body but the members determine policies and the work to be undertaken. Students are at the top of our structure with the national board beneath.

The students elect the board, which comprises eight members: the president, vice-president, secretary, treasurer, public relations officer, fund-raiser, welfare officer and the education and development officer. We created the position of welfare officer in April because welfare was becoming a major issue for students. We operate on the basis of best practice, which we learn from other organisations in Europe where many well-established, well-funded organisations have existed for the past 30 years. They are members of the Organising Bureau of European School Student Unions through which we meet them and discuss policies of the Council of Europe such as gender mainstreaming and social climate, which we then incorporate into programmes for our members. We learn best practice from these long-standing organisations that receive state funding.

The Union of Secondary Students is a limited company. Our board of directors consists of high profile figures such as Fintan O'Toole of The Irish Times, Fergus Finlay of the Labour Party and James Doorley from the National Youth Council of Ireland. The national board conducts its work through working groups selected at our annual general meetings. We also use regional councils covering each region in the country. These councils carry out much of the work set by the boards. They provide another link to our grassroots and help us to get more people working with us on the ground and more student involvement in the organisation. The documents we furnished to the committee contain additional information on this.

The union is the only representative body for secondary students in Ireland. We lobby groups such as the Department of Education and Science, and when a statement is made we voice the opinions and ideals of the students on any issues that arise. We work with other organisations in different areas of education. Students enter secondary education as children aged 12 or 13 and emerge at 18 as voting adults. During those years they spend six hours a day, five days a week in second level education, which has a significant impact on their personal development. For this reason we intend to set up projects on issues concerning drugs, alcohol and mental health to consider how we can help students during this phase of their development.

We have, for example, set up initiatives such as a nightline because there is no helpline in Ireland specifically for second level students. This is necessary because students spend so much time in second level education and many told us that although there are career guidance counsellors in schools their personal development is not considered. We organise and fund this helpline. The Union of Secondary Students receives no Government funding and any funds received come through once-off grants or private sponsorship. We rely on corporate sponsorship for our projects which inevitably means some we would like to carry out which we believe are important cannot receive the funding needed to carry them out at national level.

We agreed with the Department that we would adhere to three terms in order to receive Government funding: to set ourselves up as a limited company, which we have done; to open a company bank account, which we have also done, and to submit our business plan. The latter is with Matt Ryan in the post-primary administration division with whom we are lobbying for a meeting to discuss USS funding requirements.

We are hoping to develop a newsletter to be sent nationally to all our schools and students to make them more aware of events taking place such as the "Yes" campaign about which many students did not hear. The idea is to get them more involved in what is happening regarding their education. We have provided a guide and introduction to the Union of Secondary Students in order that students will know where to go and how they can help. We are also considering developing a booklet to address, for example, the question of how a student council might acquire a vending machine in a school. It would address the practical and daily needs of students.

We see ourselves as representing the grassroots. Everything that comes to us on the national board comes from grassroots level. Everything must come to us from members. If, for example, we believe an issue such as alcohol and drugs, about which there is so much discussion, involves students and should be addressed by the Union of Secondary Students in terms of project development, we will talk to students in working groups and get them involved in order that our work always originates from them.

We would like the Union of Secondary Students to be acknowledged as one of the partners in education. We need all the partners in education at second level to be involved. The Union of Secondary Students is always willing to work with other partners in education such as teachers, principals, parents and boards of management. We see ourselves as having similar goals in that the education of students is the common goal. Our goal is to secure the best possible education for students. This is also the goal of such parties as boards of management, teachers and principals.

We also work at an international level. We work with the Council of Europe as part of OBESSU, Organising Bureau of European School Student Unions, with regard to its resolutions and feedback from its members. Our views are then incorporated into the Council of Europe's work. The Union of Secondary Students is a full member of OBESSU. We will host its general assembly in Ireland in April. OBESSU was founded in Ireland by the Irish second level education organisations then in place. It subsequently flourished and has become an important member of the Council of Europe in terms of second level education and consultation with students.

Regarding academic education and the leaving certificate, we would like a change in the way students are considered. Many of our members believe the leaving certificate is purely academically based. We take the view that there are multiple types of intelligence and that students exhibit many of these. However, we believe academic intelligence is the only one acknowledged under the current system, which is why we constantly lobby for other means of allowing students to show the potential and development unique to each of them. We strongly believe reforms should be made to reflect this fact in order that students who are perhaps not academically ahead have their skills in other areas acknowledged.

The Union of Secondary Students received funding of €5,000 from the National Children's Office to conduct a roadshow project. We will travel to schools to help them set up and develop their own student councils and help them work out best practice which we have learned through our work. This project will get under way soon. We look forward to it as it will be the first time we will be able to conduct such a project at national level to benefit our members. Board members will have expenses paid to travel to secondary schools. All of us representing the Union of Secondary Students today have travelled to secondary schools which have sought help and have worked with the students, training the student council, for a day or for however long requested. We are now able to obtain funding to do this and develop more student councils in accordance with the 1998 Education Act.

We hold three positions on the student council working group of the National Children's Office with whom we work regularly and with all the other partners represented in developing student councils. We have taken the initiative in a lot of that work.

We also have a mental health project under way. It is an ongoing project, the main element of which is the nightline, about which I spoke. It is the only one of its type in existence, though the Samaritans have a help line. There is also Childline. However, our members felt the former dealt with people who were older than secondary school students and that Childline was available for younger people. Our nightline will be serviced by third level students who have just left second level education. They will be trained by the Samaritans group before being allowed to handle calls because dealing with someone's mental health is such an important task.

We have projects to encourage good practice in a social climate in general in schools, as well as a drugs and alcohol project. This involves a serious issue for young people, many of whom, unfortunately, indulge in binge drinking. Our approach is to address the problem with students and talk to them about it instead of they simply being told what is the situation. We want to work with and get feedback from them. We find that if we sit down with students, talk to them and explain matters, they are quite mature and will take on their responsibilities. Unfortunately, many of the schemes in place do not allow for such an approach or proper consultation with young people.

Regarding the development of the Union of Secondary Students, we are putting out a call for a secretary general because all of us on the national board and all those elected to USS positions are in full-time second level education, which makes it difficult for us to attend meetings. We, too, are receiving an education during our school hours. Accordingly, we are seeking to have a secretary general who would be able to conduct much of the organisational work involved. The Union of Secondary Students is a young organisation. It has been in place for four years which makes it difficult at times because not only are we running a national organisation but we are also still in the process of establishing and developing it. This takes a lot of effort. The commitment shown by our members and the people on the national board is commendable. They travel throughout Ireland, self-budgeted, as we do not receive funding. It is all done at the individual's own expense, purely to help second level students and to give them a voice. We are working progressively to cover such aims as are set out, for instance, in the National Children's Strategy, to give young people their democratic right to a voice. This is what we are covering at the moment and no other initiative is being taken in this area apart from ours. That is a brief summary of the information the committee has already received, which goes into much greater detail.

Chairman

Do any other members of the delegation wish to speak? If not, we will take questions.

Deputy Enright

I welcome members of the USS to the committee. Ms Nolan mentioned in her closing remarks that members of the delegation are all full-time second level students and that the union is seeking a general secretary. I presume that is dependent on funding or is there money for this purpose already?

My next question is about the practicalities involved in meeting as well as the financial implications. Has this presented difficulties, so far, assuming that the membership is from all over the country, as even attendance at regional meetings could entail considerable travel? I assume there is Internet communication and so on, but apart from that, is travel a problem for people or is it a problem the delegation has not yet encountered as people continue to participate? Is there funding for such initiatives at the moment? Who funds the nightline? Is it funded from the limited resources USS has already or some other source? It sounds like an extremely good idea and I am particularly interested in the projects the USS already has as regards mental health, alcohol projects etc. This is an initiative that fills a void and is perhaps best dealt with by the people involved rather than others telling them how to do it. Does the USS receive any funding from the Health Board Executive in this regard? Perhaps this could be addressed.

I know the student figure is 40,000. How many school bodies does that figure represent?

Chairman

We will take one other question before coming back to the delegation.

Deputy O’Sullivan

I join Deputy Enright in welcoming the delegation. It is important that we have the Union of Secondary Students before the committee. I commend the organisation on all the work it has done over the past four years and on how it has developed. It is extremely impressive. I attended its annual general meeting recently and was very impressed by the level of organisation, considering that the members are all full-time students and do not have any paid official to organise business. As with Deputy Enright, our main concerns are about how to assist the union and help it get the support it needs towards consolidating the work it is doing. It is important that school students are represented and that their voices are heard as a partner in education. One of the areas highlighted in the presentation was that the union should be a recognised partner with representation on such bodies as VECs, boards of management in schools and the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment. The committee should support the union in those aims. It is somewhat ironic that the one group not represented is the one comprising the students themselves, the raison d’être of secondary education.

I am also interested in finding out how many schools are involved. I know there was difficulty in getting councils set up in all schools, partly because there was not even a parents' organisation in some. Parents' organisations have a role in establishing school councils where they do not exist. In this context I would like to ask about the level of involvement among students in schools where there are councils, whether there is much interest or just a minority of students involved in any one institution. Is the union well-represented in the different types of second level institutions, fee-paying, publicly funded or non-fee paying and community schools, comprehensives, VECs and so on? Is it represented more or less across the board or are there gaps in this regard?

I was also interested in the nightline and the concept of secondary school students providing a listening ear for other school students. That is probably very positive because there are so many problems to be tackled in terms of suicidal tendencies, drug and alcohol abuse and so on. Do delegates feel that people can refer better to their age cohort? The point has been made that Childline might have too young a focus and the Samaritans might have too old a focus. Do they feel they might be able to offer a unique opportunity to young people who may have difficulties?

I saw the union's press statement last week as regards the TUI proposal concerning children who drop out of education and how that issue should be dealt with. I am interested to hear the delegation's views on children who do not fit well into the school system, students who may cause disruption in class and so on and the type of measures it feels should be adopted in this regard.

Mr. Oisín O’Reilly

As regards the secretary general, funding from the Department is pending. Plans have been in place for the past three years for such an appointment as well as the appointment of a development officer for the purpose of student councils. As regards regional council meetings, the travel factor presents a great obstacle to participation of students. We had an agreement with various transport companies that fares would be reduced for our general meetings but that has lapsed. In terms of national board meetings, they are currently held in private residences and in cafés — it used to be Bewley's every month until it closed. There is great expense for members of the national board in travelling the country. Since Ms Nolan was elected president she has been up and down between Dublin and Cork every weekend, except four, to various meetings, conferences, internal committees etc. As regards the financial implications of projects, our nightline is being run in partnership with University College Cork's students union, which has provided the offices, phone lines etc. The bills will have to be footed by USS.

The Samaritans are also in partnership with us on this project and the training costs for the volunteers have been reduced, as far as I am aware. However, we still have to fund the training costs as well as sundry expenses, tea and coffee for the volunteers, phone line costs etc., and we are currently considering whether to use a freephone or low-call number, depending on the costs involved. Our treasurer is doing a cost analysis on this aspect at present. I believe that answers all of Deputy Enright's questions. Is that correct?

Deputy Enright

What about the number of schools?

Mr. O’Reilly

The number of schools is somewhere between 89 and 100. I do not have a definite figure because membership forms are coming in every day and I have not yet sorted through the last week's input since Christmas. In reply to Deputy O'Sullivan as regards the gaps in school types, I am not actually sure. I do not have a breakdown as to which areas are represented, comprehensive, community schools etc. I know there are a number of community schools and definitely fee-paying schools. The organisation was founded by a number of students from fee-paying schools here in Dublin, so they are definitely members. I can give the Deputy further information on the breakdown later today. I will let Ms Nolan answer the question as regards the union's policy on discipline.

Ms Nolan

We are currently developing a policy on discipline in that a sub-committee is being set up which will review the legislation in this area and advise the union on developments that may be required. A presentation will subsequently be made to the annual general meeting for members to consider, amend and adopt. This has become a major issue. I was invited to the TUI conference concerning that union's policy on discipline. USS felt this was a good step forward in that we were invited to comment on it, as a representative body. At the time I remarked that it was in our best interests that we all worked together. Discipline is an issue when young people are obliged by law to be in school and teachers are obliged to teach.

Sometimes there can be conflicts of interest but generally we believe a support system needs to be in place for students with discipline problems. Suspending someone because he or she is mitching from school is ironic as it gives him or her a few days off for not attending school. We believe expulsion is a huge step backwards as students end up being transferred from one school to another. Any problems need to be addressed. The parties involved should sit down and discuss them among each other.

Many students feel frustrated because they are obliged to remain in school until the age of 16 years. The education system only acknowledges academic intelligence which can be very frustrating for young people who may not be able to connect academically. They might be better in other disciplines such as woodwork. New subjects have been introduced which represents a step forward. We believe we are getting there but there is much more to be done. The Union of Secondary Students is very interested in taking a look at this.

We do not have a breakdown of the numbers we represent at our annual general meeting, nor do we know the ratio of schools from which they come. At our last AGM students came from all over Ireland and represented different types of secondary school. The three of us here today each come from a different type of school. We have students from Donegal, Cork, Limerick, Galway and Dublin. Each school is allowed to send two representatives who vote on its behalf. However, 12 people from one school may show up, only two of whom can vote. They would all be very interested in attending the working group.

The AGM usually takes the form of a two day conference. During the first day we talk about the issues surrounding education. Therefore, schools would be represented by much more than the two students who can actually vote. The following day voting takes place on the constitution and our policies, yet there is still a broad interest. We see it as very positive that more than the two students asked to attend end up attending. In our letters we state any number of students is welcome from an individual school. It all depends on who is interested but we believe it is a good sign that there is interest among all students.

Deputy Hoctor

I extend a welcome to Ms Nolan, Mr. O'Reilly and Ms McNamara and thank them for their interesting presentation. Before the establishment of the Union of Secondary Students, many schools had set up their own student councils on an independent basis. Since the establishment of the Union of Secondary Students in 2001, schools which did not have student councils are now encouraged to form them in order that the voices of students are heard clearly. We welcome developments to date. The Union of Secondary Students has done excellent work on its limited resources.

To what extent is the Union of Secondary Students a union? Is it linked in any way to unions such as SIPTU? Having been a teacher for some time, I know that the needs of first and second year students are different from those of fifth and sixth year students. How are these needs represented by the Union of Secondary Students? Do junior students have the opportunity to vote like senior students? I know different schools may have different policies on this. How is the representation of VECs, community colleges and boarding schools broken down in the Union of Secondary Students? What about the urban and rural divide?

It is very encouraging that the Union of Secondary Students has taken on the difficulties encountered by young people like binge drinking and drug abuse. It is excellent to see that this is being done despite the heavy workload every secondary school student has to bear. Every support should be given to its members. There are other issues that this committee has come across, having met adult groups involved in education. Such issues include bullying. Has the Union of Secondary Students tackled this issue? How has it gone about doing so? It is a serious issue for all age groups in secondary schools.

Another issue raised is that of part-time work. We have received representations from the Irish association of engineers which reported alarm at the number of secondary school students who took on part-time jobs. Nobody condemns this but the association's concern was that there were few people showing an interest in engineering which it put down to the fact that disciplines such as engineering required substantial study time outside of school hours. It claimed that this would be a real problem in a decade as the number of engineers retiring would not be replaced in the same numbers.

Has the Union of Secondary Students had an opportunity to meet the new Minister for Education and Science since her appointment? We must take on the concerns of this group and make sure the Minister is fully aware of the work being done and that adequate funding is made available.

Senator U. Burke

I endorse the words of welcome to the representatives of the Union of Secondary Students. Since its establishment in 2001, has its members been represented on the board of management in any school? Do they request such representation in all schools? What basis does the Union of Secondary Students have on a board of management when its representatives are brought on board? I understand the union's difficulty with continuity due to of the nature of second level education. I am sure membership is most active post-junior certificate, and it is for one or two years at most that one would get involved in the union or represent it at whatever level. Has the Union of Secondary Students, USS, any framework to ensure continuity in its objectives?

What are the links of the USS with the teacher unions, in particular as the USS was established at a time of a teachers' strike, when the USS chose to highlight its concerns regarding the lack of provision for education? What has been the response of the teacher unions to the USS? In what areas have they responded and in what way have they embraced the objectives of the USS in their work plans?

Does the USS see itself as a national organisation at this time? I know it takes time to extend to all areas of the country but while there may be no formal mechanism for a national organisation, does the union get feedback from individuals within schools or individual school student councils in regard to difficulties in certain areas? As a body of student representatives, if there were difficulties in the student body of a school where there was an active member of the union, would it be usual for that member to take action or involve themselves to alleviate the difficulty? Is the union effective at the coalface as the representative of its members? How has the management of schools responded and has the union noticed a change in this regard?

If there were one item the union could highlight as an achievement in the past four years, what would it be? This might not be simply in regard to a difficulty concerning one school but any achievement in the context of an overall change of attitude when compared to the past.

Ms Nolan

Bullying was a major issue for the union two years ago and much work was done on it. It is an area relevant to all areas of life, especially in the school environment. It is important for the union and our members and a matter on which we have acted and will act. We have addressed bullying in working groups during our annual general meetings. In these groups, if a student feels an issue should be addressed, he or she can raise it with us. We will continue to work to tackle bullying.

Part-time work is a unique issue in that it is conducted outside of school hours. It is up to individual students to decide. Part-time work does not have links to education but, as we all know, there is an impact on education if students spend their time working. The issue is unique for us in the sense that we do not see how an individual school can address the situation. More work is needed on the overall youth work sector in the context of tackling part-time work issues. Other resources must be made available to students outside of school.

To consider this from the perspective of young people, there are not many places they can go after school as this country does not have the necessary facilities or groups, and many of the established groups are not well known. Youth work does not receive what we would consider enough funding to seriously tackle this issue. It is an issue for the youth work section as well as for the union.

With regard to the union's policies on part-time work, the decision is up to the individual member. We would advise students that their education is very important and on what they should concentrate. However, it is up to themselves, especially as the age of those engaging in part-time work is quite high and mainly involves 16 to 18 year old students, many of whom are legally adults. Our general response to the issue is that more work is needed in regard to youth work centres and that links could possibly be made through the schools to students to encourage them into other areas.

It is against regulations for students to be represented on boards of management and they are barred from this under legislation. This is a big issue for the union. Ireland is one of the few countries in Europe that will not allow students on school boards of management. It is a long-term objective of the USS to change this so that students can be represented, as they should be, on boards of management. If partnership is ever to come about, this needs to happen. We are currently considering this issue with the student council working group.

We met previous Ministers for Health and Children and Education and Science, and the Minister of State at the Department of Education and Science, Deputy de Valera. We have not had the opportunity to meet the current Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Hanafin, although she briefly discussed the USS with me, an acknowledgement which the union felt was a great step forward in that she approached us. We are lobbying for a meeting with the Minister in regard to the development of the USS and its role in second level education, and we hope such a meeting can be arranged in the near future.

With regard to continuity, I agree that the USS is quite a transient organisation in that members only have a limited time in second level education and once they move on they are not allowed to run for positions within the USS. However, our standards are always upheld despite changes in membership; they will not change though the membership changes. Despite this, some members have been involved on our executive for the past four or five years, taking a back seat role but working for and helping the organisation. In that respect, we have members who stay on for more than two or three years although they have left second level education. However, to be on the board, one must be a second level student because the union is self-representing.

On junior representation, our national board contains a member who is in second year as well as members from third to sixth year. We have not as yet had a board member from first year but we would welcome anyone who represents us. From working with different student councils, we know that some councils break into senior and junior student councils and then unite for an overall council. It is interesting that it was stated that junior representation could be stronger — it is quite strong and many junior students attend. However, many sixth year students, during leaving certificate year, take time out during their mid-term breaks to travel from across the country to our annual general meetings. We are delighted they care so much about the USS and their education that they are willing to take time out during their crucial leaving certificate studies. They have done this in running for board positions. Mr. O'Reilly, our vice-president, is a sixth-year student who is taking a year out to help develop the role of the USS and to educate students in this regard. There is an equal balance in this area. Many fourth-year students attend because that is a project year rather than an academic one, which is ideal for them. Overall, however, there is a fair representation from junior and senior students.

The USS is not what one would traditionally call a union in that we do not represent members who are employees. It is more akin to an association for secondary students. However, we do have links with other unions. For example, SIPTU helps us with the provision of venues for AGMs under an agreement between the two associations. Much of our work involves collaboration with the ASTI, TUI and other representative bodies in the area of education, which approach us on different issues.

Regarding national representation, we notice from our meetings that students from some counties are better represented than others. For example, Cork and Limerick have a strong representation and Dublin is one of the strongest. However, students are joining throughout the country, including those in Galway, Donegal, Leitrim and Cavan, for example. Our objective is to get the news out for students and make them aware we are there to help them. We travel to schools to help students establish student councils. If a council already exists, we train and assist the students by communicating best practice. The USS, therefore, is very much representative on a national level as we have representatives from across the board.

A question was put as to how we deal with difficulties encountered by student councils. Students contact us on a regular basis through our website to communicate their problems. The first action we always take is to consider the legalities regarding the issue in question so that we can offer the best advice. We look to groups such as the Equality Authority to provide information relevant to the difficulties which a student is experiencing. Our next step is to ask the students for feedback on the outcome of the implementation of this advice. Depending on the situation, we then may be involved in discussions between the student and the principal, teacher or board of management, as appropriate.

Members would be surprised at the number of people who contact us seeking help with their student councils. The contact might come from a mother whose daughter is about to be expelled. We also get queries from student council members on such matters as how to go about attaining a vending machine for their school. Therefore, the issues we encounter are varied. If a situation is brought to our attention whereby a student requires information or assistance, we may approach that student and offer advice and assistance.

The USS has achieved much in the past two years. We are still in existence after four years without the benefit of any support services for our members or the board. Board members make a significant sacrifice in that the organisation is self-funded. The main USS office is my study or that of another board member. We are completely self-financed and make no profit from our members. For AGMs, we usually ask for the expenses incurred by us to facilitate the event. That is all. Our greatest achievement is that we are still here after four years. The USS is not the first organisation to be set up and run in this manner. Similar enterprises have lasted 12 or 18 months before being unable to continue.

Deputy Andrews

Is Mr. O'Reilly taking a year out from school?

Mr. O’Reilly

No, I am doing my leaving certificate while being a member of the board.

Deputy Andrews

Mr. O'Reilly will naturally have to wind down as the year goes on. The secretary general, Ms Nolan, pointed out that the USS has no premises. Is it the board's ambition to acquire a premises with a secretary general and some funding?

The delegation might tell us who its sponsors are and the difficulties it encounters in this regard. I understand some projects cannot be undertaken because of the nature of the funding. Is this because there is inadequate funding or do the sponsors have some difficulty with those type of projects? How could these problems be resolved if proper funding was available from the State? Has the USS encountered resistance from any secondary schools in acquiring members? Is the permission of schools or parents required before canvassing students to join?

The delegation might provide more details regarding the general assembly in April. Students will be coming from abroad and the USS will have significant requirements to organise the event. I am pleased the Minister has taken the initiative in contacting the USS. This is a promising indication that some support may be forthcoming in the future.

I am pleased the USS is tackling the issue of binge drinking. Too much of the commentary on this issue in the media comes from older people rather than from those whom we are all criticising. This is a front and centre issue that the USS should push and about which it should give its views and attempt to identify causes and possible solutions.

Deputy English

Many of my questions have been already raised and comprehensively answered. It is only a matter of time before members of the delegation will be here again as politicians. The signs are there and Deputy Andrews had better watch out.

Has the USS a policy on racism and is it an issue with which it has been confronted? It seems to be a problem that is encountered everywhere else and I am sure it is also evident in schools. What access does the USS have to legal advice? Board members have to interpret laws and provide advice to students. Are they briefed on this or do they avail of legal advice? This is an area in which support is warranted. A working group is being established by the Minister to examine the issue of discipline in schools. Has the USS been asked to provide an input to this group? If not, does the delegation believe, as I do, it should be?

The delegation mentioned the problem of bullying among students. Unfortunately, I have encountered cases where teachers are bullying and mistreating students. What is the USS's policy on this issue and has it been involved in any such cases? If there is a difficulty between a teacher and pupil that is being caused by the former, what action does the USS take and what advice does it offer? In most cases of conflict, it may be the student who is creating the difficulty but I am aware of cases where the teacher is primarily to blame. Such behaviour affects not only the student and his or her family but the entire class.

As a student counsellor, I am pleased to see the USS dealing with issues such as alcohol abuse. However, in terms of internal structures and student rights, what are the top three issues the delegation faces in regard to what students want in their schools but are unable to attain? What rights do students believe are being infringed?

I am aware of schools where councils have not been set up, for which the students blame the teachers. I am sure this may be a misplaced accusation. If one wants to establish something, one will find the means to do so. Nevertheless, what does the delegation believe is holding back certain schools from establishing student councils? In general, teachers and principals seem to be open to the establishment of councils. Is it the delegation's experience that teachers are working with the councils and that USS members are treated in an appropriately respectful and co-operative manner? There are a few national aims that councils must take on board, and each school council also has its own agenda. Am I right in assuming that? How open is that?

Will the booklet that is being prepared on how to campaign for or achieve certain things also include the responsibilities of councils? It will set out how to go about achieving something but it should also indicate how students should behave in a school. The responsibilities of students are important as well.

I agree there should be greater recognition. The union mentioned it produces leaflets and travels to all schools. Local papers and local media might provide another avenue for achieving greater recognition by way of a column in the local papers each month or each week to report back on each school's activities because one does not read much about the success or failure of student councils. Perhaps it would be no harm to approach the local papers or local radio station to try and get a slot. There might even be a role for the union in that young people who have left school might see it as an agency to which they could talk. Through the media they might hear more about it and might consider going back.

The setting up of nightline is a great idea. Demand for it might be a shock, as we saw when a special line was set up for the elderly in Summerhill in my constituency. The number of calls has continued to increase. There is massive demand because people like talking to others in similar circumstances. It is good to know that the nightline might have a lo-call or freephone number. On the question of support, I am sure the union has approached some of the telecom companies, for example, ESAT or Vodafone. Are any of them willing to sponsor the service? That would be essential because the union should not be left to carry the full cost of it. It should be helped to some extent. Has the union any ideas? If there is any help we can give, the union should let us know.

Mr. O’Reilly

I will not be winding down my office. Apart from taking leave for the mock examinations and the leaving certificate I will continue straight through. Clare McMahon will answer on the question of sponsors.

On students from overseas and racism, a policy working group is being established by the welfare office of the union to examine our policy on this. The issue was raised at our last AGM by one of the members as well by a couple of delegates. The welfare office has taken on that and hopes to make a presentation either at our general assembly in April or at our AGM next October. We hope to publish that policy as soon as it is ratified by Congress.

Regarding the booklet for student councils, it will contain practical information on the setting up and running of councils and on what the council can do for students and other bodies. It will also contain information on the rights and responsibilities of student councils in conducting their business and on dealing with school management in a way that will best achieve their aims.

Regarding aims, there are broad national aims which include mandatory student councils, student council representation on the State Examinations Commission, the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment and various other State bodies. When a school votes for membership it sends an application form with contact and other details of the school, and the national board ratifies membership. It then subscribes to the constitution and the national aims and policies. It is free to set out its own aims and objectives for its local constituency, its local school, but it subscribes to national policy and aims. The development officer of the national board, myself as the vice-president, and the regional council will assist the general membership in implementing those aims and our different policies.

Regarding legal counsel, a legal firm supplies its services free of charge to us. I am not sure of the name of the firm but the person with whom we deal is Ms Clodagh Keane. On the discipline working group, I was shocked that we were not invited to take part in that working group and quite astonished that neither were the teachers' unions. It is a matter of grave concern that none of the people involved most readily in the education system was involved. The Minister needs to redress that issue with the utmost expediency. I do not know how true partnership can be achieved if the main people in education, most especially, from my perspective, the students, and most definitely the teachers, are not involved.

On problems with teachers and how we deal with them, we deal with them more in an advisory role than by actively getting involved. We do not have the staff or the expertise to get involved in particular circumstances but we can help in terms of a parent contacting us about expulsion, which happened in the past couple of days. I telephoned the National Educational Welfare Board to obtain all the information, had booklets and telephone numbers sent out, and so on. We know where the information is and we can get it or put parents in touch with the information. That is how we work at present

It is difficult to specify the top three problems we face in terms of teacher-student relationships because there is such a broad spectrum of issues ranging from there being no toilet paper in the toilets to accusations of bullying by students seeking advice and assistance and by teachers. In the event of a complaint against a teacher we immediately seek legal advice. That is the policy of the national board. Obviously we advise students of their rights and contact parents and advise them and ask the parents to take it on because we do not have the expertise or the staff to process all the complaints. There is a lot of administration work involved.

On membership on boards of management, student councils do not have to get permission from their boards of management or their parents to join the union. That is one of our main principles and it is clearly stated regarding membership of the union that students do not have to get permission. We have great difficulty in establishing student councils and in getting information out. The Education Act 1988 provides that boards of management must give all reasonable assistance to students when they want to set up a student council and when a student council has been set up. We send out mailings three or four times a year. We try to visit schools. The mailings never arrive to the student councils. They stop with the teacher who is involved with the council or the principal or the secretary and are never received by the council. My question would be whether that is reasonable assistance to councils and the growth of a free student voice. I will leave the committee to answer that. There are definitely problems in terms of information being passed down to the students by the school management. That is something about which I and the organisation are concerned because it hampers the growth of the organisation and the growth of the student voice and is in conflict with the national children's strategy of giving children and young people a voice.

Clare will cover some other questions.

Ms McNamara

Regarding sponsorship, for the first two years the board found it very difficult to get companies to take us seriously because they regarded us as just a bunch of students. In the past two years it has been much easier. Last year we had sponsorship from Renault, Vodafone and AIB. This year we are in talks with companies such as Go 4 Less.

Regarding the question of resistance, some schools make it difficult for us to contact students because they believe we want to work against teachers. That is not the case. We want to work with them to make school a better place for all. However, the majority of schools are welcoming and allow us in to speak to their student councils and so on.

Deputy Crowe

What struck me throughout the presentation is the lack of official support. It seems strange, when the union is meeting with various Ministers and so on, that no funding is forthcoming. The union is an all-Ireland group. I would have thought there would be funding under the North-South co-operation initiative. The reason there is no funding is one of the issues the union needs to raise with the Minister.

Mr. O’Reilly

That is very true and it is of great concern. Regarding the availability of funding under the North-South co-operation initiative, it is a question of filing out grant applications and so on. It is down to time. We have a fund-raiser who is 15 years of age and is sitting her junior certificate examination. The committee will see the problems we have in processing grant applications, filling out forms, going to meetings, following up issues and so on. It is difficult for us. On the question of support, since launching our funding campaign before Christmas and issuing letters to local councillors and TDs — some members of the committee have received letters — the response is growing for the cause for USS funding. All our European partners, OBESSU, ESSU which is newly founded in England and all the other European students organisations which Ms Nolan met over Christmas are submitting letters to support local councillors, business people and different partners with whom we work and other organisations such as the National Youth Council of Ireland. It is about people publicly declaring their support. If any member of the committee wishes to offer support I ask him or her to send a letter to the Minister.

Chairman

I thank the delegation for a very informative meeting. The group of young people we have had here today have certainly put paid to many of the comments in media and other circles to the effect that young people have no interest in their surroundings or in their commitments. I congratulate them on an excellent presentation. As many Deputies have said there is no doubt they are the leaders of the future. I congratulate them on their excellent work and presentation to the meeting.

The joint committee adjourned at 1.25 p.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Thursday, 27 January 2005.