JOINT COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND SCIENCE debate -
Thursday, 27 Jan 2005

Adult Education: Presentation.

Chairman

This meeting has been convened for the purpose of discussing developments in the area of adult education. On behalf of the members of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Education and Science, I welcome to today's meeting the following representatives from AONTAS: Mr. John Ryan, president, Ms Bernie Brady, director, and Ms Phyllis Priestly, adult learner-teacher. From the Department of Education and Science, I welcome Ms Pauline Gildea, principal officer, further education section, and Mr. Des O'Loughlin, assistant principal officer. You are all very welcome to the meeting.

Before I begin, I draw your attention to the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege but the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make any charges against persons outside the House or any official by name in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I call on the representative from AONTAS, Ms Brady, to make a presentation.

Mr. J. Ryan

If you do not mind, Chairman, I will start the presentation.

Chairman

That is fine.

Mr. John Ryan

I thank the Chairman for the invitation to address this committee. AONTAS is the national association of adult education in Ireland. Our membership comprises 224 individual members within the country, 192 voluntary and corporate groups ranging across society and 76 statutory and corporate groups, from VECs and universities to institutes of technology.

Our objective is to promote the importance and value of adult education as a key part of the lifelong learning agenda. We are very conscious of the need for everybody to have an opportunity to engage in education from cradle to grave. Part of our objective today is our desire to inform this committee as to the relevance and importance of adult education within society from an economic, social and cultural perspective.

I refer members to a document we circulated at the start of the meeting. If we were to measure the importance of the budget for adult education in Ireland we would see it has moved from 0.01% to 2% of the education budget in the past few years. In 1997, we would have described adult education as the Cinderella of the education system. I would be loath to say that when we met the Minister of State, Deputy O'Dea, we found our Prince Charming but we felt we had moved on when he took over responsibility for this area. I am sure the Minister of State would not mind my referring to that point. We felt we had moved on but we now believe the agenda has become staid and we welcome this opportunity to raise a number of issues. I will hand over to Ms Bernie Brady, the director, who will deal with some of those key issues.

Ms Bernie Brady

I welcome the opportunity to make a presentation to the committee. I hope members had an opportunity to read the background paper I forwarded earlier. There is a copy of the background paper within the pack and some slides of the short presentation I will make today. When I conclude I will ask the members' indulgence to hear briefly from Ms Priestly, who is an adult learner. She is one of our mature students who finished her degree two years ago and who is also a teacher in the area of community education.

When developing this paper I was aware that the committee already had presentations from the National Adult Literacy Agency and from the IVEA and therefore did not plan to go into the detail of the national adult literacy programme, for example, but rather focus on broader issues in the area of adult education.

I have included in the paper statistics, in so far as we could gather them, for people taking up adult education opportunities here. We gleaned those from a number of targeted programmes and also from some of our own estimates. I have not included in that statistical analysis the number of people who might be engaged in adult education in the workplace, for example, because that material was not available to me.

One aspect I want to highlight is the notion of where adults learn and in that respect I examined four places. Adults learn in school and college, the workplace, the community and the home. Our adult education service is developing in particular areas, but in other areas there is still a need for a good deal of development. That is one aspect I would like to focus on today.

The White Paper on Adult Education, which was published in 2000, was welcomed by all of us in the sector because for us it was a watershed in the development of policy for adult and community education. We acknowledge the fact that a number of the recommendations of the paper are currently being implemented, notably, the national adult literacy programme, the Back to Education initiative and various other initiatives like the adult education guidance initiative. I will not go into the detail of those but if members want to ask questions I would be happy to answer them.

One aspect I focused on in the paper was the area of non-formal adult education, community education. That is important because it is sometimes left out and is invisible whenever investments are being made. In the White Paper, community education was identified in two ways, first, as an extension of the adult education service which is provided through the targeted programmes listed in the statistical analysis and, second, as part of a communal process of education which is delivered by community groups in their own areas using their own resources. One of the reasons they are invisible within the education umbrella is because many of them are funded under programmes like the community development support programme, but their main core work is education.

Specifically, the community education programmes have been spearheaded by women's groups, although in recent years this trend has spread to men's groups and various other community provisions which address marginalised people. I refer to those with disabilities, refugees and asylum seekers and many other people who may not necessarily come into the system through school and college.

One of the reasons this is important is that we know from research, specifically our research commissioned on behalf of the Department of Education and Science, entitled Gender and Learning, that many people do not wish to come into school-based programmes. I have worked in the area of literacy for 13 years and I know how difficult it is for somebody who has had a bad experience in school to return to education.

In community education we are examining the need for development and capacity building of diverse kinds of adult education to ensure that education does not get boxed into one particular type of provision. We also need to examine educational provisions that attract those people most difficult to reach and to recognise and respect that work.

In regard to progression to higher education, because adult literacy is being heavily invested in and other programmes for second chance education are being supported, the adult education problem is solved. It is important to point out that adult literacy is generally the first step for people on the ladder of learning. Once people become engaged in learning, our experience of adult learners, on which Ms Priestly will speak, is that they do not want to stop. They want to continue to learn. One does not get to a certain stage and think it is all over.

People who want to progress to higher education are fairly much left out of the agenda here. We have the lowest level of mature student participation in higher education across the OECD countries. Our part-time students face barriers, particularly in the area of finance, in that they have to pay full fees.

Within the paper, I have raised the issue of higher education and the post-leaving certificate programme which has attracted almost 40% of mature students. That indicates there is a demand for progression to higher and further education. We were concerned earlier with the proposed capping of places in the post-leaving certificate programme because that would cut off an accessible route for mature students. Aontas, in its consultation with its membership, knows that people who pursue post-leaving certificate programmes do so because they are programmes from which they can progress to higher education, which are also mainly free of charge.

I raised in the paper the issue of professionalisation in the adult education service. I started in 1980 as the only adult literacy organiser in the Republic of Ireland and ran a scheme which operated with the help of approximately 400 volunteers. I note the movement that has taken place in this area. We now have paid adult literacy organisers and community education facilitators, but we still do not have a professional or career structure for adult educators. This is one of the issues NALA raised in its presentation. We support what it states on that.

With regard to the issue of structures, adult education developed in an ad hoc way. In some ways that has been a weakness and in others it has been a strength because it has allowed for much diversity in the system. The White Paper recommended structures in this area and we were happy to note that an over-arching structure was recommended for the co-ordination of adult education. That came about in the form of the National Adult Learners Council. This was proposed by the Kenny report in 1983 and by the Murphy report published much earlier.

One of the reasons this is important is that it sought to have a joined-up approach to adult education because of the way it is delivered across Departments and sectors. Unfortunately, that council has been put on hold for over a year and a half and has been reviewed by the Department of Education and Science, but we are concerned that no results of that review have come to the council. While we recognise that the context of adult education has changed in recent years, if the structures proposed in the White Paper are not the correct ones, it is important the Department proceeds to consult and develop ones that will work. Hanging on that work are other local structures such as the local adult learning boards and the inter-agency working group on professionalism. Perhaps we can discuss this issue later.

I will wind up by considering key issues. The White Paper has a holistic and broad view of adult and community education. In some ways this has been narrowed down and put into one sector. It must be recognised that there should be diversity in the sector and that people get involved in adult education from the level of literacy courses to that of pursuing a doctorate if they so wish. Investment is crucial in this area. The adult literacy programme has shown the success achieved when investment is made in the sector and innovative programmes are developed. As Mr. Ryan said, investment in this sector accounts for only 2% of the education budget and that level of investment has remained static over the past two years. AONTAS campaigned for 10% of the education budget to be allocated to adult and community education by the end of the national development plan, but there has been slippage in that regard.

This year is designated by the Council of Europe as the European Year of Citizenship. As political people, members are aware of the importance of participation in the democratic process. AONTAS is marking this year by holding a conference to examine issues of citizenship and how the new Ireland can develop a society that includes not only its citizenship but people whose origin is not Irish. Of crucial importance are integrated approaches. Within the paper I discuss the issue of child care. While investment is being made in the system, sometimes the problem is that approaches are not joined up. Interdepartmental co-operation is essential in the delivery of some services, especially support services.

Interculturalism is an issue of which we are all aware, especially in the adult education service. It is one of the services accessed by many people coming into the country who want to learn a second language or who want to develop themselves educationally with a view to becoming citizens.

I wish to raise the infrastructural issue, which includes not only the structures but the spaces where adult education takes places. Currently there is no capital budget expenditure for adult education. Many of the members will know from visiting such venues in their constituencies that adult education takes place in venues from an old shack to some of the nicer schools and colleges.

I will leave it at that and Ms Priestly will speak on her experience as an adult learner. She is a perfect example of the slogan we use that one is never too old to learn.

Ms Phyllis Priestly

Members will have to excuse me because I am very nervous. I wish to briefly outline to members my journey through education. I finished school at the age of 14 in the 1940s. That was the end of my education until the age of 58. I then decided there was so much I did not know and had not learned at school. The appetite I always had for learning was never fulfilled. I learned from reading. I decided to return to Pearse College on a return to education course. I enrolled in general studies and attended the college for four years. I did intermediate certificate history and leaving certificate history and English. There was a lull after I started learning and there was no place for me to go after that. There was no way I could get to college and I did not even think I would fit into that possibility. I saw a notice in the credit union advertising a personal development course with Prussia Street women's group which I then began. This started a new role for me within women's groups and studies. I was part of the AONTAS NOW programme, new opportunities for women, for 15 months and it was a marvellous experience. I met women from different groups all over the city and began to see the desire among people to go back to education who had no other way but through the community sector. The NOW programme was a great opportunity in that it provided child care facilities and travel expenses for women over the 15 months.

I came out with a higher diploma in organisation and management. I went back to my community and worked there for a number of years. I wanted to do something for myself, and because I had done so well it gave me the confidence to feel I could go further. I went to UCD for a return to learning course, and I did a year of night studies there. I was completely bewildered that I had got a place. It was beyond anything I thought I would ever do. I was filled with apprehension. I was 69 years old. How was I going to get to UCD? How was I going to mix with first year students and freshers? However, I was spurred on because it was something I wanted to do all my life. I said to myself that no matter what way it went, I was going to go through it. I went through failures and repeats and I finished and graduated two years ago with an honours degree in history and Greek and Roman civilisation. That was the end of a lifelong learning which took 15 or 16 years starting from a very adult, mature stage in my life.

I then went back into the community and Prussia Street women's educational group. I began to wonder what I could start to teach, because that was where I would teach. We started courses in Greek and Roman civilisation for very mature students, and that is what we do now.

I want to emphasise why community programmes are so important to people, especially when one is older. People think education is geared towards younger people and their examinations, and it is great that that is the case. However, every day in the community I see older people who want to learn and keep learning. We have courses in geography, drama and creative writing. It is lovely to come into the geography class and see students taking such an interest and being taught about the EU and global warming. It sounds like geography but these are the subjects we cover. Community education must be funded.

Chairman

I thank Ms Priestly for an in-depth account. Ms Pauline Gildea will now make a presentation on behalf of the Department.

Ms Pauline Gildea

AONTAS has articulated a policy perspective that has come from the White Paper on adult education, published by the Department in 2000. The objectives are clearly similar with regard to where we feel we need to go in terms of the development of adult education.

In the context of lifelong learning, I will put our adult education programmes and supports into the perspective of the Department's overall missions. The mission of the Department of Education and Science is to provide for high-quality education which will enable individuals achieve their full potential and participate fully as members of society and contribute to Ireland's social, cultural and economic development. Within that overall mission, there are a number of high-level goals which are particularly relevant to the context in which adult education provision is currently supported and funded. Those goals are to support, through education, a socially inclusive society with equal opportunities for all and to contribute to Ireland's economic prosperity, development and international competitiveness. There is an agenda of social inclusion as well as an economic agenda.

Within the framework of lifelong learning policies, the strategies to support these high-level goals cover the spectrum from early childhood education to adult and second chance education. Strategies across the spectrum include the following: providing for a broadly-based foundation of general education; seeking to widen the choices within the curriculum at both first and second level so there is a relevant range of options to encourage people to stay in school and complete their secondary education; strengthening the vocational and technical dimensions of the school curricula, ensuring computer literacy for all and encouraging greater take up of the physical sciences; and strengthening work and community links.

There is also a strategy to address educational disadvantage across the spectrum from primary level to adult education. Some of our adult education programmes seek to address the issue in a joined-up manner. Providing second chance education options is also very important. Within adult education, my primary area of work is the provision of funding and policy supports. We also have a range of programmes supporting training options for the unemployed and other recipients of welfare benefits.

A very important feature in recent years has been the introduction and development of the national qualifications framework. This will seek to link all learning in a unified framework and, when all levels are delineated, provide some of the options for progression that may have been absent in the past.

As AONTAS mentioned, the White Paper on adult education and learning for life published in 2000 marked the adoption of lifelong learning as the governing principle of educational policy in Ireland. The policies outlined in that paper were complemented by the report of the task force on lifelong learning published in 2002, which focused on labour market needs. The White Paper defined adult education as systematic learning undertaken by adults who return to learning having concluded initial education and training. In that context, adult education includes aspects of further and higher education, continuing education and training, as well as community education and other learning by adults — formal, non-formal and informal.

The range of areas identified for investment in the White Paper is listed in the paper I circulated, so I will not bore members by repeating them. The national adult literacy strategy is the priority in that regard. The principles and policies outlined in the White Paper were complemented by the report of the task force on lifelong learning. While that had a particular labour market focus, it is interesting to note that the aspects of lifelong learning it focused on concentrated on key matters, including the development of the national qualifications framework and ensuring basic skills for all. In seeking to make that provision there is a high level of co-operation between the respective Government Departments, that is, the Department of Education and Science and the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment. The relevant statutory agencies of the vocational education committees and FÁS are seeking to work together to identify and provide those skills.

With regard to lifelong learning policies and the various policies being articulated by the European Commission, in particular the focus on making Europe a knowledge-based society, the concepts of adult education, further education, vocational education and training are inextricably linked. There is a range of provision and a range of needs which are often interlinked but no single agency can deal with that, whether at government or at local level. We are seeking to ensure there is a strong focus on interlinking the agencies at local level. There is a range of statutory providers involved. They include the vocational education committees, FÁS, Teagasc and Bord Iascaigh Mhara. The universities are involved in adult education, as are the institutes of technology and community organisations and community groups.

Within the further education sector of the Department of Education and Science, the programmes are primarily managed by the vocational education committees. National certification for those programmes is provided by the Further Education and Training Awards Council in many cases. Certain programmes also get certification from professional bodies and a number of bodies outside the State. In light of the priorities that have been identified in the White Paper on adult education, the principal objectives of the measures that are funded by the Department are to meet the needs of young early school leavers, to provide second chance education for adults, to provide vocational education and training opportunities for labour market entrants and re-entrants and to provide alternative pathways to higher education.

In the context of meeting those objectives, the programmes that are supported and provided include youthreach, which is aimed at young people aged between 15 and 20 years who have left school early and require skills for both social inclusion and the labour market. A wide range of programmes is provided in senior Traveller training centres both for young Travellers and for adults. The vocational training opportunities scheme is a programme that supports educational provision and training for unemployed adults who have been out of the workforce for more than six months and a wide range of welfare recipients, including lone parents, people with disabilities and so forth. The post-leaving certificate courses have been mentioned. The focus of those courses is to provide skills for the labour market both for new entrants, that is, young people leaving school, and re-entrants to the labour markets, such as mature students who may have to re-skill to secure employment.

An important development within the adult education area has been the introduction of the back-to-education initiative. This has provided an opportunity for adults to participate in education and training programmes on a part-time basis. Again, it is focused on a client group that would possibly not otherwise be in a position to avail of education, such as unemployed people and other welfare recipients. In addition, people in the workplace can avail of part-time options within the education and training system to acquire qualifications.

As mentioned earlier, there is the adult literacy and community education scheme. This is managed through the vocational education committees. Grants are paid by the Department of Education and Science to the vocational education committees both to develop the adult literacy service and to support local community education groups. The balance of funding in 2004 was approximately €19 million for adult literacy and €10 million for community education. That funding is distributed to local groups via the vocational education committees.

I have outlined the key developments in providing second chance education and adult education. They are aimed primarily at those with less than upper secondary education and people with literacy difficulties. Part of the objective is to increase the flexibility of the system and to develop the options for part-time education under the back-to-education initiative. The national qualifications framework is the key focus in providing a new system for the achievement of learning outcomes. It is designed to ensure that all learners can access accreditation irrespective of where they learn, whether it is in a formal, non-formal, community or workplace setting.

A number of issues have been raised by AONTAS and members of the committee might wish to ask questions about them so I will conclude now.

Chairman

Thank you.

Deputy O’Sullivan

I welcome the two groups and thank them for their presentations. We have a fuller picture from the presentations of what is happening in adult education. Ms Brady pointed out that the White Paper had a broad view but that it is becoming more narrow. The funding is somewhat static and I accept the point that some work has been done but more needs to be done. Perhaps she could give more details about the issues that are outstanding.

The people who most need to return to education and who have the least level of education are often the hardest to reach. The flexibility in the community education sector appears to be most important. Ms Priestly's story indicates that point. The section of the document dealing with the back-to-education initiative refers to the bureaucratic constraints on the programme. Later, there is reference to research under the vocational training opportunities scheme which indicates that the last evaluation shows that it does not reach the most disadvantaged adults. Perhaps Ms Brady would discuss what needs to be done in that area to reach the most disadvantaged adults.

Ms Brady also noted that 40% of participants in PLCs are mature students. There is a cap on PLCs. Can the Department's representatives tell the committee if there is an intention to remove the cap on PLC places? That is a major issue. It is interesting to note that 40% of PLC participants are adults whereas we have the lowest level in the OECD of mature students participating in third level education. Clearly, the PLC sector is most important in terms of giving third level or further education opportunities to adults.

Has the Department had discussions with the Minister, Deputy Brennan, about the back-to-education allowance? It increased under the savage 16 cuts to 15 months. During the debate on the budget, the Minister, Deputy Brennan, said he intended to try to bring it back down to nine months. It is important from the committee's point of view to progress that issue and secure the reduction so adults can have more opportunities to return to education. Has AONTAS had any discussions with the Minister? It is important from this committee's viewpoint to progress that issue and get the period reduced so that adults can have more opportunities to return to education.

I also wish to ask the Department officials about the National Adult Learning Council. As I understand it, the council is still in abeyance, so when will it be activated? As education spokesperson for the Labour Party, I certainly do not know what the problem is or why it is taking so long to activate it. Perhaps the committee could have information on that.

Under the Barcelona declaration there is a need for vastly increased numbers of skilled and educated people in the workforce. The routes to which the witnesses referred would seem to provide ideal opportunities, both economically and from the viewpoint of individual learners — people who may have dropped out of school early and did not have those opportunities. How does AONTAS see us being able to marry those two things and the adult education sector being able to work with people to bring them to a point where they can fulfil this economic need? Major opportunities will be missed unless the adult education sector is properly resourced.

What does Ms Priestly see as the main obstacle to people such as herself? The Chairman will probably want to wait until the end to get the answers. I am interested in Ms Priestly's views. She was out of school for a good while before coming back, so what does she consider is the main thing that needs to be done to facilitate people like herself who wish to return to education?

Deputy English

I thank the delegates for appearing before the committee. We have obtained much information in the course of this meeting and we will have plenty of information to read afterwards, also. Many of my proposed questions have already been answered. It was a pleasure to hear Ms Priestly's story, which proves the benefits of this scheme. Many people in my area have been lucky to avail of different programmes in recent years. I can see the benefits of the various courses to them and to society as a whole. I am a big supporter of the scheme.

The clear message, however, is that we cannot stay where we are. However, we should be happy to be where we are, given that the budget has not increased in recent years. We must increase the amount of investment in the programme.

The lack of a capital budget for certain aspects of adult education was mentioned. I can see the point but I am in favour of utilising existing resources. Have the witnesses spoken to local councillors about getting purpose-built buildings for adult education? In county development plans, land can be zoned and buildings accessed for such purposes. With regard to the Meath county development plan, when we wrote to the Department of Education and Science to ask about future needs in the area, we got primary and secondary schools. A third-level college may have been mentioned also, but the adult education facilities were never mentioned. I do not know why that is. Maybe it is the policy to use existing buildings. We should raise the matter of adult education facilities more often. In some areas, councils are building multi-purpose buildings or multiplexes whereby all groups in an area can operate under one roof. I have not heard adult education facilities mentioned in this respect but perhaps that matter has been discussed and I may have missed it.

Why would eligible people not wish to pursue an adult education course? What is their main worry? What are the constraints in providing funding for such courses — are they financial or do they relate to a lack of facilities? Has there been much development in distance learning at home or is it too difficult to undertake? Do people want to attend a college for support, also? As a young person, I found that distance learning was effective for me because I could fit into the work schedule straight away. I was able to plan my life more effectively though availing of distance learning.

Senator U. Burke

I welcome the delegation. I congratulate Phyllis Priestly on her wonderful achievement. It is a living success story to see that somebody could get an appetite for education at 58 years of age and return to teaching. Most of us are getting out long before that stage, rather than going back.

The endeavours of vocational education committees throughout the country should be recognised. They were the first to put a peg in the ground for adult education against all the odds. Prior to 2000, lack of funding was a major difficulty in providing adult education. Over the years, there was very little response from the Department of Education and Science where a need was identified. The developments we have seen in this sector would not have occurred were it not for the enthusiasm of the VECs' chief executive officers and the appointment of adult education co-ordinators. At one stage such co-ordinators were non-existent at ground level.

Having achieved that progress, do the witnesses see any difficulty with continuing the process now, given that the vocational education system is contracting? The VECs are changing over to community and other types of schools. The same VEC structure is not there throughout the country, although it might be all right in major urban areas where other agencies and groupings are involved. However, VEC schools are contracting nationally. As Deputy English said, vocational schools have provided most of these adult education programmes.

There is a huge bridge to be crossed with regard to adult literacy. In the workplace, in particular, there seems to be embarrassment or peer pressure that stifles the initiative of individuals to attend adult literacy programmes. People are reluctant to be identified as having availed of such courses. Such programmes often take place on a one-to-one basis, so there is an element of secrecy involved. How can we overcome the difficulties in providing adult literacy programmes more openly? I am not talking about transparency but people being happy to attend them and comfortable in doing so. I find there is a great reluctance on the part of people who were early school leavers to avail of such courses in adult life. There is a major problem of illiteracy but individual workers will not face that reality. They are blocked somewhat because they would have to admit to their past inability to progress along those lines.

How can AONTAS overcome those serious difficulties, particularly with regard to the workplace? Individuals may be able to participate in adult literacy courses in the privacy of their own homes, as people do who want to achieve more. It is not done on a wider scale, however, where such facilities are lacking.

In the past, adult education was undertaken on an ad hoc basis. Has the success of adult Traveller programmes been assessed? Difficulties with attendance and a range of other social problems would encroach on a structured form of education, particularly as it must be more flexible than any of the other programmes. There is a need for much greater continuity and intensity in respect of the programme. From experience, I am aware that they are unable to pursue it at that level. It is very much a “come day, go day” approach. What is achieved at the end? Has an assessment ever been carried out of the benefits of the programme?

I am sure the programme has been of tremendous benefit to women in the Traveller community. Any of them who has pursued adult education training through the Traveller centres has made marvellous progress in fitting into the settled community. Much more must be done in this area but the resources are not available. While there is great co-operation between the Departments of Education and Science and Enterprise, Trade and Employment, there is a need for the Department of Social and Family Affairs to have much greater involvement to offset the lack of resources. I accept that the health boards provide support for individual projects and schemes in particular areas where the Departments have failed to provide such support.

Programmes are fine when they are urban based and when there is a huge population available to avail of and support them. In scattered rural communities, however, there is no identification with adult education. Perhaps only Teagasc is filling the void in this regard. Vocational schools in small rural towns have vanished and the other sectors do not appear willing to fill the vacuum.

Deputy Crowe

I welcome our guests. The presentation indicates that adult education was the poor relation in the past and even though the current budget stands at 2%, it remains that way. The AONTAS document refers to a 1997 survey which showed that 500,000 people — 25% of the population — had literacy problems. One can see the apparent growth in the fact that the number of tutors has risen from 5,000 to 31,500. Are figures available to indicate the current position regarding literacy? Literacy programmes are mostly based on the efforts of volunteers. In the light of the many innovative learning techniques, etc. available, are those volunteers being up-skilled in the way they tutor?

As with previous reports, the link between mothers and children in educational attainment comes out strongly. How can the importance of the role model, particularly in disadvantaged communities, be enhanced? While we discuss the inflexibility of formal education and encouraging community education, funding for the latter appears to have remained static.

There are many groups involved in community education. In the area I represent, for example, there is a group called the Shanty, the work of which is highly valued. We spoke about Ms Priestly's appetite for education. The difficulty many groups have is in trying to retain people. One of the saddest problems relates to people who want to progress in education but who do not have the funding to do so. Reference was made to the old chestnuts of child care and transport. Even with the Shanty, one of the most basic problems involves mothers attending courses hungry because they have not eaten. As with the breakfast clubs, the Shanty provides meals for the women involved. It does not receive funding for doing so but such provision is seen as a crucial part of the overall education programme. The Department provides X amount and I accept that there is only a certain level of funding available. However, if we are considering innovative and broader based ways of drawing people in, these matters must be addressed. It makes sense to do so.

Our guests referred to the difficulties experienced by those who return to learning on a part-time basis, particularly in terms of the cost of courses. There have been major increases. If one is entering child care, for example, there has been a huge increase in the costs involved. What is to be done? Should we say to people from disadvantaged or poorer backgrounds that even though they have completed one year of a course, there is no subsidy available to allow them to continue with their studies? This dilemma is faced by many of the community groups involved in this area.

The presentation indicates that many groups operate out of run-down buildings, etc. However, there have been improvements. The Shanty has a state-of-the-art building but, because funding was not being provided by central Government or Departments — the group was obliged to seek it from the private sector — it has remained closed for long periods. The position is similar throughout the country. Other buildings of this sort are not being put to full use due to a lack of what is small change in the overall picture. The buildings are available and the teachers are in place but, because of a lack of a small amount of funds, progress is not being made.

There are problems in funding across the community sector. If one is trying to organise a programme for people who will enter it the following year, one is obliged to rely on the same amount of funding or, hopefully, an increased amount. It is difficult to budget for a course because if there is an increase in fees or if the level of funding remains static, problems will arise. Anyone involved with community centres, etc., is aware that he or she does not have access to multi-annual funding. As a result, courses that last three or four years cannot be organised. The latter is a particular problem in circumstances where people are being taken onto courses in November and where clearance from the Department might not be given until January or later. These are the difficulties the sector faces.

I accept that we must be flexible but the Department does not appear to be displaying much flexibility. In addition, the Departments of Social and Family Affairs and Education and Science and others are involved but there appears to be a lack of co-ordination between them. This makes matters difficult for those who are interested in learning but who are obliged to spend increasing amounts of time trying to obtain funding.

A previous speaker referred to the Traveller community. A tiny proportion of Travellers finish second level education, not to mention progress to third level. If we are discussing role models and innovation, I cannot understand why additional funding has not been provided to try to encourage more people to proceed to third level. I do not know whether such funding could be provided. There is a crying need for role models within the Traveller community. One or two of its number has been elected to local authorities but role models in education are also needed. Is the Department examining the provision of funding to encourage people from different ethnic backgrounds to participate in the education system?

I refer to the back-to-education allowance. The Minister stated citizens from other EU member states who took up residence in Ireland were abusing this scheme by treating it as though they were tourists staying in Ireland to have the craic and so on. Has AONTAS encountered cases to support this statement? The Minister is adamant this is going on but I have contacted education professionals nationwide and they have not experienced this.

Ms Priestly

I refer to Deputy O'Sullivan's question about the barrier to education. I could never even dream of going back into education because I could not afford it. The reason I was able to go back at the age of 58 was the introduction of free college fees. I had a free travel pass and, therefore, I only had to pay a small fee. When I was in college, I began to meet mature students who had encountered many barriers. It is impossible for a mature woman to go back if she does not have child care facilities or cannot claim expenses for travel, photocopying and so on. It is impossible for a mature student to go back and it is the same in secondary education. It all boils down to money and support at home and so on.

I found it hard. My family was reared and I had support and facilities. I got annoyed when I realised so few people from disadvantaged areas went to college. If young people from disadvantaged areas are to participate in society, they must get an education. The only way out of disadvantage is through education.

Ms Brady

I will deal first with the back-to-education allowance. We have not heard of anyone doing what Deputy Crowe suggested. The opposite has happened. When the original third level allowance was set up, AONTAS evaluated it for the Department of Social and Family Affairs and we discovered it was a fantastic way of supporting people in third level education. I included in the submission a case study of a man from Limerick who is studying in UL. He was dependent on the allowance and had to put a number of things on hold when the changes were made. We also know from our discussions with mature student officers in higher education that a number of mature students have deferred their courses because of the difficulties presented by the allowance and it is incomprehensible that something like this should have been changed.

Deputy O'Sullivan and Senator Ulick Burke raised the need to develop innovative approaches to reach people who are the hardest to reach, and the issue of flexibility. It is difficult for us who have had the privilege of education to understand what it is like to admit to having a difficulty with literacy, for example. In my years working on the Dublin adult literacy scheme, people walked around the block many times before they came into the Dublin Institute of Adult Education. On one occasion I had a student who was bright but who could not read and I taught him. When he progressed into a group he brought a screwdriver to the class and I asked him what he was doing with it. He said if anybody recognised him, he could say he was repairing the electricity points. It is difficult to understand that.

A number of projects have been implemented, some of which I have identified, under the education equality initiative, for example, the second chance education project in Donegal and the Leitrim men's group. Outreach processes are used to contact the hardest to reach. For example, the Leitrim men's group has tried to connect with men living in isolated areas, talk to them and bring them into comfortable spaces before learning happens. This is pre-development work. Similarly, an interesting project under the second chance education scheme has attracted young, single parents. A buddy or neighbourhood work system has been used. Much of that work is time consuming and it is often not included in the cost of a programme because a course is not delivered. However, it must be recognised that to attract hard to reach people, pre-development work must be done.

Senator Ulick Burke asked about people taking up literacy programmes. There are examples of work done by the National Adult Literacy Agency and LANPAG together with county councils. A buddy system was used for guys cleaning the streets. They will not come forward but once somebody in the workplace sets up as the buddy, it is easier to bring people in. Another example is the success of the television programme, "Read Write Now". Initiatives must be innovative but they take time, planning and multi-annual funding. One might spend a year doing pre-development work before one can get people to sit with others in a group.

We welcome the VTEI. It is under development and no review has been conducted. I am, therefore, conscious of being critical of the programme but we have done evaluation work with the community strand of the programme on the processes through which people must go to count for funding. I do not suggest the funding should not be accounted for but there is a sense if something cannot be counted, it does not count. These groups need capacity building support and they should not be written off because they cannot at the outset comply with all the procedures. Deputy Crowe referred to the shanty project, An Cosan. This project has a specific, holistic philosophy about people's personal development from which it works. The Deputy outlined a number of the problems people bring with them, such as going to work or school hungry. They have access to the community strand of the back-to-education initiative. However, what has happened is that the requirements for the initiative are often not in line with the kind of holistic approach an organisation like this uses in attracting people into it. We need to take account of that. The Department also needs to listen to what people are saying about how this gets delivered.

The issue of volunteers and their role in supporting the adult education service, particularly with regard to literacy, was raised. There has been more done in recent years to support volunteers in literacy schemes. The National Adult Literacy Agency, NALA, has also developed programmes with, for example, Waterford Institute of Technology, to upskill people and provide qualifications for them.

I will let Mr. Ryan deal with some of the issues relating to capital funding and places. The message I would like to convey today is that "a one size fits all" approach will not work for the adult education service. Recently, I was at a meeting of the advisory group for the adult education guidance initiative, which is a very important initiative. The initiative is targeted at particular groups. However, because the service is there it attracts all adults who want advice and information about the work. These might be people who are changing career or in similar circumstances. People do not come in with a label saying "target group" stuck on their foreheads. They come in as people looking for a particular service and it behoves us to provide that service. I am not saying we should not prioritise because that is important given the resources available. However, if we try to build an adult education service in one place at one time for a particular person, and which must be counted in a particular way, we will destroy what we already have on the ground. The same goes for funding.

Capacity building for the community service is important. Already, community education facilitators who are employed through the VECs support a number of community education groups. However, there are many people who do not fall into that category. The review carried out by the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs has badly affected the work being delivered by groups that come under the community development support programme that also deliver education. We must recognise that adult education does not just happen in the further education sector. The sector is much broader than that. The problem goes back to the importance of the co-ordinating function of an institution like the national adult learning council. The reason it exists is that we must look at things from a life-long learning perspective. Mr. Ryan will probably pick up on some of the other issues arising in that area.

Mr. Ryan

I will be very brief as I realise there are time constraints. I agree with Deputy O'Sullivan that the White Paper brought a broader and more holistic view of adult education. That was necessary. As Ms Brady said, there are as many people out there with educational needs as there are people in the country.

Deputy English indicated his position on distance education as he has just completed a degree through distance education. It is vitally important that we develop distance education. The Deputy raised the issues of physical structure, for example, buildings, and local authorities. The old saying was that the quiet priest gets no dues. Adult education has been quiet for too long and has not got on to the agenda of local authorities or into their development plans. It is interesting that when the Department was answering questions about output, it did not include adult education although it is one of the areas mentioned for growth.

I would be very interested to hear the answer from the Department of Education and Science to the question asked by Deputy O'Sullivan on the National Adult Learning Council, NALC, because, as the president of the National Adult Education Association, I get queries from all sides and from all organisations as to why NALC has not been advanced as it should have been. A major problem facing us is that we do not have an overarching body in the country with responsibility for promoting and advancing adult education.

Senator Burke mentioned VECs. As a member of a VEC, I appreciate the work they do. I have been a member of a VEC since 1991. VECs are contracting. Adult education makes up at least 60% of the budget of most of the urban VECs in the country. They have moved into that growing area and it is a significant part of their budget. They have done great work across the country in ensuring provision. They have put the first peg in the ground in that regard. We need to move it further and must have a larger agenda within the VECs.

If the presentation to this committee can do anything for adult education, it should be to recognise its importance within the context of society — socially, culturally and economically. On the question of whether, from an economic point of view, we can marry this to the Barcelona objectives, we must ask whether if we prioritise the economic aspect, we will then have to rein in on the individual and social development aspect. Employers will tell us that the people they want are not necessarily those with the technical skills, but those with the social skills. These skills are acquired through the advancement of self and education. This aspect is sometimes missed in the debate. If people are capable of living with and contributing to their community as active citizens, that is the major part of what is needed.

Deputy Crowe outlined the importance of mothers and children, and role models. It is essential that we create space for people to acquire the skills and education to become role models within the community. This is particularly important for younger parents and where this is needed it requires a flexible delivery in the service.

The rural areas are another issue. We hold regional meetings across the country. In places like Donegal, transportation is an issue. It is a major issue for people even to get to the centres. Funding is not available for transportation. If we want to advance the agenda, we must raise the budget. There is no other way to do it.

Chairman

Thank you very much.

Ms Priestly

May I make a final comment about how much I loved my journey back to education. I loved every minute of it and what it meant to my life. It changed my life completely. I had broader interests in everything. It was one of the best things that ever happened to me. I emphasise how important it is for people to get the chance to move forward or to have the structures there for them if they need or want to go back to education, as I did. The structures were there for me because I was older, but younger people need those structures now.

Ms Gildea

A number of issues were raised and I will respond in no particular order. Deputy O'Sullivan asked about numbers doing post-leaving certificate programmes. We will invite VECs to apply for approval for courses and places within the next week or so for the forthcoming academic year. We are also analysing enrolments on courses for the past academic year. Decisions on allocation of places at VEC and individual school level will be made in light of that information.

On the matter of the back-to-education allowance, we have had discussions at official level with the Department of Social and Family Affairs. As those discussions will lead to recommendations to the Minister, I am not at liberty to indicate their exact nature.

Deputy O’Sullivan

I am happy there has been some progress.

Ms Gildea

On the matter of the National Adult Learning Council, the idea of establishing it evolved from an earlier report and was indicated as desirable in the White Paper on adult education as part of a structure. The terms of reference of that council were outlined in the White Paper. As time went on it became clear to people that those terms of reference were impinging on the statutory responsibilities of other bodies such as FÁS and the VECs. It was felt that the landscape should be re-examined before a council was established. Many developments had occurred in the area of education both for further and adult education and in the broader context. This included the establishment of the National Qualifications Authority as well as the Further Education and Training Awards Council and the Higher Education and Training Awards Council.

The implications for providers of what evolved from those councils have required that we examine where responsibility and accountability lie at the different levels. This has been examined by the Department which must arrive at conclusions to make recommendations to the Minister. We hope to do this sooner rather than later. We are aware of the delay which has occurred there. The view at official level is that it was worthwhile not to rush into the establishment of a statutory body when there was no clarity about what exactly its responsibility would be and what would be its relationship with other statutory bodies. There is recognition of a need for an over-arching framework but precisely whether that should be at policy advisory or operational level, or what the mix should be, has been the subject of intensive discussion and consideration. The Department hopes this can be advanced within the next few months.

Deputy O’Sullivan

Does the Department expect to have a proposal soon?

Ms Gildea

I hope so, Deputy.

Deputy O’Sullivan

Are the problems caused by people minding their own patch or is it deeper than that?

Ms Gildea

No. I hope we have taken a broad and objective view in the context of strategic management objectives by looking at core functions of different organisations and trying to have clarity about where responsibility rests rather than having everybody doing everything and nobody absolutely accountable for particular aspects of the work.

Senator Ulick Burke mentioned a number of issues with regard to literacy in the workplace. The Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, together with FÁS, has primary responsibility for learning in the workplace. The two Departments and FÁS have a very close relationship in terms of trying to move this forward. Senator Burke also referred to the difficulty people in the workplace may encounter in acknowledging their literacy difficulties. We hope that can be incorporated into a programme of learning in the workplace which would include literacy. To have access to the workplace one must obviously have the acceptance of the employers, and discussions are ongoing on that issue. FÁS and the Irish Vocational Education Association are currently in discussions about expanding the provision and examining the possibility of a joint relationship to move that forward.

On Traveller training, the Department funds vocational education committees to provide a programme of Traveller training within the training centres. Those centres had formerly been managed by FÁS and were taken over by the vocational education committees a number of years ago. They provide training and work experience for young Travellers from age 15 upwards which gives a mix of young people and adults. The programme for the younger client group is a Youthreach-type programme.

Evaluation is carried out by a national co-ordinator for Traveller training centres who reports to the Department. Annual data about participants and the programmes such as those moving forward to further education and those going into employment are supplied. Currently the Department is undertaking a review of the Traveller education strategy and many groups are represented, including representatives of Traveller organisations. That work is advancing and the national co-ordinator for Traveller training centres has an input into that strategy. The issues raised by the committee have also been of concern in the Department and I hope they will be addressed in this revised strategy.

Deputy Crowe asked about a survey on adult literacy.

Deputy Crowe

The original figure for the number requiring help with literacy is 500,000.

Ms Gildea

The Department is also in discussions with a number of people about how a future survey might be conducted and this will be done sooner rather than later. The OECD is involved in a survey of adult literacy and life skills. The question of whether Ireland should participate in that survey is being considered. Not many European countries are participating in that programme. The absolute requirement is to determine whether the country has moved along and whether the numbers of those requiring literacy attention have reduced. A number of people in the Department and external consultants have been discussing this issue. Another survey will be undertaken.

On the question of funding for community groups, the Department provides the funding to vocational education committees which are the local statutory bodies. The Department is of the view that they are best placed to determine which groups should receive funding. Funding is limited and not everybody will receive what they require. The VECs are regarded by the Department as being the appropriate bodies for the management and administration of that funding and for making a determination based on local needs. Extensive funding goes to community groups through the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs. In the context of joined-up government, the Department is in contact with that Department in respect of the administration of that funding. While the remit of the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs is community development, it also provides grant assistance for community education. There may be an issue in seeking to rationalise the system and bring more transparency to all the funding.

Deputy Crowe

The difficulty seems to be that the funding remains static over a two year period while everything else has gone up in price. I wonder how a programme can be administered when the Department or the VEC is not giving an increase in funding. It seems that rather than moving forward, the situation is moving backwards. This does not send the right signal to people on the course and it raises questions about the commitment to the area of community education. If the money does not exist, it is merely lip service and that is the message I am given on the ground.

Ms Gildea

A sum in the region of €10 million is paid to VECs for the purposes of grants to local community organisations. Decisions must always be made about how those moneys are expended.

Deputy O’ Sullivan

I wish to make a point about the National Adult Learning Council. Will the Department ensure it consults people involved in the adult education sector before preventing a fait accompli of the make-up of the council? It seems there is a changing agenda. People who are directly involved in the service should have a say.

Ms Gildea

The Department will make recommendations to the Minister and will include the strong view expressed that there should be consultation before final decisions are made.

Chairman

Have you completed your response?

Ms Gildea

We will have to write a letter if we left something out. There are a number of other issues I can address. I did not mention capital funding as it was included in my paper as one of the areas identified for investment. There is no ring-fenced funding for capital investment in adult education. Capital for post-leaving certificate courses is provided through the second level building system. Other adult education centres such as VECs are the responsibility of local authorities.

On professionalisation and the provision of in-service training for those engaged in the delivery of adult education, each VEC has a programme within its normal human resources structure to provide for the upskilling of teachers and tutors. A wide range of programmes is also being funded within the university sector.

Chairman

I thank our guests for attending and being very informative. We had a very useful meeting. Not only did we discuss adult education, but Ms Priestly told us exactly what it was all about and how it improved her life.

The joint committee adjourned at 11.05 a.m. until 11 a.m. on Thursday, 10 February 2005.