I welcome the delegation from the Parliament of Saxony-Anhalt to this meeting of the Joint Committee on Education and Science. As Vice-Chairman of the joint committee, I apologise for the absence of the Chairman who hopes to join us soon. We hope members of the delegation are having an enjoyable and educational visit to Ireland. The meeting has been convened at their request to discuss education systems and related topics. I invite the chairman of the delegation, Dr. Gunnar Schellenberger, to commence by introducing the members of the delegation and, if he so wishes, to make a short presentation.
Visit of Saxony-Anhalt Parliamentary Delegation.
Dr. Gunnar Schellenberger
I thank the joint committee for giving us the time and the opportunity to come before it. I look forward to a discussion on education and science issues but I will first introduce the members of our committee, many, but not all, of whom are present. Our system is slightly different. The various parties of the Landtag are represented in our committee, namely, the CDU, which provides the chairman; the SPD, which provides the deputy chairperson; the FDP and the PDS. Unfortunately, no member of the latter is here today. The members present are Mr. Marco Tullner, Dr. Gerlinde Kuppe, Ms Madeleine-Rita Mittendorf, Ms Biana Kachel, Dr. Norbert Volk, Ms Eva Feussner and MsGabriele Brakebusch.
Before Dr. Schellenberg continues, I will introduce the members of the joint committee. I am vice chairman of the committee and a member of the Labour Party which is currently in opposition. Deputy Tom McEllistrim and Senator Liam Fitzgerald are members of Fianna Fáil, while Senator John Minihan is a member of the Progressive Democrats. Fianna Fáil and the Progressive Democrats are the parties in government.
Dr. Schellenberger
We have already had a number of interesting discussions. On Monday we met the German ambassador and today we met officials from the Department of Education and Science. We also met representatives of the Goethe-Institut. We discussed the PISA report and obtained the Irish evaluation thereof. In turn, we were able to put questions on the report and explain it from our point of view.
We deal with other items in our programme; it is not just an education committee dealing with schools, we also deal with higher education and science issues. So far we have heard that Ireland is making good progress in these areas and that it has many positive points to make. We are interested in what we can learn from it that we can bring back with us and transfer to our system. That is why we undertook this fact-finding visit.
I thank the delegation for visiting us. It would be most useful for us to ask each other questions and tease out the issues of interest to the delegation. The two committees have similar responsibilities because we deal with science issues and all levels of education, including third level.
The delegation appears to be interested in issues such as the age at which children start education, our third level system and how it is funded and how we deal with research. Would it be best to have a question and answer session to cover these topics?
Dr. Schellenberger
Our members are interested in the age at which a child starts his or her education. We heard he or she starts at four years plus and that at five years all children are in some type of pre-education centre. Our members will now ask questions.
Ms Madelene-Rita Mittendorf
I would like to ask about the years from zero to four and child care. In Germany we have facilities for early child care — the position is better in the east than in the west. What provision is made for child care in Ireland? Are crèches and kindergartens private institutions? How much does it cost parents to send their child or children to a crèche or kindergarten?
I will begin and my colleagues will then add to my contribution.
Unfortunately, there is an under-provision of State pre-school or kindergarten places. Much of what is provided is child care rather than education. For the most part, pre-school education is private. We have Montessori schools. Community child care facilities are run by local communities, some of which receive Government funding from the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, rather than the Department of Education and Science. There is an under-provision of pre-school places, which is one of the reasons children start primary school from the age of four or four and a half years.
I come from County Kerry in the south west. Those providing child care facilities would have contacted me when seeking grants. The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy McDowell, allocated approximately €17 million for such facilities in County Kerry. This allocation covers staffing and capital grants and the purchase of equipment. While I accept more needs to be done, we have achieved much in the provision of child care facilities. Under the equal opportunities child care programme, grants were allocated for the setting up of such facilities but as running costs are high, continuous investment is needed to make them sustainable.
I must stop the Deputy to allow for the translation of his contribution but he will have an opportunity to speak again.
I represent a Dublin constituency. I am a Member of the Seanad and was formerly a Member of the Dáil. I come from County Limerick, the same county as the Vice Chairman.
I have little to add to what my colleague, Deputy McEllistrim, said. I will ask a question or two before we proceed to the issue of compulsory schooling.
In its document the delegation refers to the kindergarten system. I take it that it is not compulsory. I also take it that there is no free kindergarten system provided by the state in that the document states parents are required to contribute. I am anxious to know the percentage of pre-compulsory school children who attend kindergarten throughout the state. From what it has heard from Deputy McEllistrim, would the delegation agree that the mixed system operating in the state is along similar lines to that operating in Ireland?
Before the delegation replies, I introduce the Chairman, Deputy Michael Moynihan, who was delayed in traffic.
My apologies for being delayed in traffic.
Ms Eva Feussner
In Germany the situation differs because the 16 federal Lånder determine what is done. We, in the land of Saxony-Anhalt, provide great cover for pre-school children in kindergartens and crèches. Some 97% of all pre-school children are in kindergartens, while 85% are in crèches or child care facilities. The contribution of parents is determined by communities. The fee may be a percentage of parental income or a fixed amount. On average, such institutions cost between €50 and €200 per month.
The child care issue is the subject of one of the big debates in Ireland. It has arisen because of changes in our society in the past 20 years. There has been a major increase in the number of women in the workforce. It is a question of supply and demand. We have a variety of different schemes. Demand varies depending on whether one lives in the country or in the city. Many parents commute long distances to work. This creates long hours of child care. The cost of private facilities averages approximately €800 per month per child, which is expensive.
There is a major political debate on the issue. It is a major problem for us to bring forward a policy to cater for the many needs in child care and it is something that will evolve in the next 12 to 18 months. Different parties have produced different policy documents and there are different emphases in terms of how we should deal with the issue. The Labour Party brought forward a policy last week. My party brought forward a policy last month. This is an issue that is evolving.
Dr. Gerlinde Kuppe
What training do carers in crèches, day centres and kindergartens receive? What educational qualifications do they have?
It varies. There is not a certain standard of education they would all have. We have courses in early childhood education at third level institutions but there are different courses in different cities. However, people would be expected to have a qualification of a certain level. Courses vary from institution to institution. I am aware this is not a very clear answer. Again, this is an area that is developing because we have not had a tradition of this type of education in Ireland. Work on standardising qualifications is ongoing.
Ms Gabriele Brakebusch
I have a question relating to the education and schooling of children from four years onwards. If I understand the joint committee correctly, children of four or five years attend pre-school for five hours and 40 minutes. Is it a teaching structure or a playful one with an educational element built in?
My experience is in the area of child care. I know children of four years tire easily and reach a point at which they must sleep. Are facilities provided to allow them to lie down for an hour or so? Are they provided with lunch?
My wife is a junior infants teacher. Junior infants classes are a formal part of the official primary school system.
On the question of whether the structure is an educational or playful one, it is both. It is education through play. There is in operation a Department of Education and Science pilot programme, inspired by Trinity College, to try to determine what supports should be available to children before they enter junior infants, the first formal year in primary school. The programme is examining the totality of a child's pre-school needs, including a health assessment of the new born infant and its pre-school development; the emotional and physical development of the pre-school child and the provision of educational support, or lack of it, within the home. It is seeking to ensure the relevant supports are provided. I do not know if that answers the delegate's question. It is hoped, if the pilot programme is successful and the results are positive, that our formally educated junior infants students will receive better support than heretofore. A number of early intervention programmes have been introduced into the junior primary school system in the past ten or 15 years.
Ms Brakebusch
The question was also about lunch and sleep breaks.
There are no sleep breaks. It is a formal school setting involving education through play. The days are short and finish at 1.30 p.m.
Dr. Schellenberger
With prices in child care facilities of up to and over €800 per month, I imagine parents are glad to send their children to free pre-schools. We heard today that teachers consider themselves, in the main, to be mediators and transmitters of knowledge and do not like to perform supervisory functions in schools. Who is responsible for supervision in schools?
What is the position on authority and discipline for students? In Germany discipline is in decline and the issue is becoming more difficult. Is the teaching profession well recognised and acknowledged in Ireland or is it similar to the position in Germany where the profession is not so highly regarded and, as a result, teachers' authority is undermined to the point where small incidents cannot be regulated and people have recourse to the law?
The teaching profession is highly regarded but there has been a decline in the number of university graduates or third level entrants expressing an interest in teaching. There is some interest but it is not now the most attractive career for young people leaving school. In the past people aspired to being a teacher. There are difficulties of discipline in the classroom which the Minister is addressing for all teachers starting out which act to discourage people from considering teaching as a career.
Dr. Schellenberger
I asked about teachers taking on supervisory functions in the school yard or on excursions. In Germany they are unwilling to do this because they consider themselves to be tranmitters of knowledge.
It has always been the custom that the teacher would undertake supervision in the school, be it in the school yard or on the bus during an excursion. It is part of the interaction between teachers and pupils, not a seperate role in a school that someone else would undertake. It is part of the teacher's role within the school boundaries.
Teachers are highly regarded, which is a positive in the Irish education system. The three teacher unions which represent staff in primary and secondary schools are strong. Dr. Schellenberger may have heard that teachers were in dispute in the recent past about payment for the supervisory aspect of their role but as Deputy Hoctor said, they carry it out.
Dr. Schellenberger
I am glad to hear it. There was a misunderstanding this morning as we did not hear about the dispute about pay. This accords with our idea of the profession — that teaching and the supervisory role belong together.
Ms Mittendorf
Let me add that our understanding is that teachers are people who not only teach but educate others. In this respect, supervision comes under the umbrella of education in the broad sense and is part of the pedagogical duties of a teacher. We all share this ideal. Disputing whether supervision is paid or unpaid work is different.
Mr. Marco Tullner
I wish to discuss the financing of third level education. The current debate in Germany is centred on whether students should pay fees and the level at which fees should be set. In general, do Irish students pay tuition fees at universities and colleges? If they do, would the universities and colleges receive them or do they come within the general budget of the State?
I am glad to see the same issues are affecting the German and Irish education sectors.
The issue of third level education fees was highly controversial a year ago but not so much now. No fees are paid by third level students, regardless of income, in any of our universities. They were abolished a number of years ago by the then Minister for Education and Science who was a Labour Party Deputy. However, many questions must be asked. There are students who pay high fees to attend second level schools, yet when they reach university pay no fees. That is a question. The issue will probably return to the desks of parliamentarians in the future.
To clarify what Deputy Hoctor stated about students paying fees at second level, there are parents who choose to send their children to fee-paying schools but there is also a free universal second level system.
Third level fees are a hot political issue. The Minister's predecessor suggested he would bring back fees but eventually had to withdraw that suggestion. There was much debate, among the parties in government and among those in opposition, and it was felt it would not be appropriate to do so at the time.
Recently we received a report from the OECD on the difficulties of funding third level education. It suggested that we charge fees. It is an ongoing topic of political debate. My party's view is that there should be universal free tuition at all levels, that this should form part of any good social democratic state. That is our political position but it is an ongoing topic of debate.
I will try to avoid political divisions. We should never have abolished fees for third level education. That was a mistake. The motivation may have been right but we did not get the results we expected.
The OECD report recommended that we reintroduce fees. We have a difficulty in funding third level education but reintroducing fees overnight would be difficult. Twenty years ago people would have taken out various educational insurance policies when they had children with a view to the cost of university education. When they discovered that there would be no fees for third level education, they rearranged their finances. How can we suddenly reintroduce fees? If they are to be reintroduced, they will have to be phased in. Equally, we must apply pressure on third level institutions not to be totally dependent on the State for funding.
There must be greater partnership with business and greater innovation in order that third level institutions will not be solely dependent on the State for funding. The debate on fees in Ireland stands where it does at present because of the suddenness of trying to reintroduce them. If people are honest and reflect on the issue, they will accept that fees must be reintroduced in some form.
The German education system seems to be largely controlled regionally. What are the benefits or drawbacks of a regionally controlled education system?
Dr. Schellenberger
It is a $64 million question in that nobody can say what are the pros and cons of such regional control. There are 16 education systems in Germany; such is the nature of federalism. When it comes to education, each region can do as it wishes and nobody wants to lose control. That Germany does not have a unified educational system is a very basic, fundamental and serious problem.
Ms Mittendorf
We are from one of the new regions in Germany — one of five of the former GDR which had a unified system before reunification. Following reunification, we took over the old system. Our debate which relates to federalism has been running for 15 years. I think I speak for everyone in saying each party includes people for and against the debate which is so hot the Committee for Federalism in Germany could not achieve results. I do not believe we should have a unified education system but there should be a greater degree of comparability. If we could achieve that, it would be good.
Dr. Kuppe
It was mentioned that when there were third level fees 20 years ago, people were better able to pay because they made provision for them. I have three questions. First, are losses incurred in the overall financing of third level education in Ireland? In Germany universities and colleges have incurred losses amounting to €3 billion. Second, on the autonomy of third level institutions, can universities, colleges and institutes of technology spend their budgets as they wish? For example, are they free to choose whom to employ and to determine the content of the courses they offer? Third, what is the social mix of undergraduates? In other words, how many come from working-class backgrounds and the middle class, etc?
There are a number of documents that may be of use to the delegation. For example, the Universities Act 1997 details how universities are governed in terms of finance. Under this legislation, I do not believe they are allowed to incur large debts. The Act also deals with autonomy and governs what third level institutions can decide for themselves and what must come under national control. The Higher Education Authority is the overarching body which deals with universities and institutes of technology. The authority is generally responsible for approving course content. The legislation governing institutes of technology is different from that governing universities. The joint committee or the Department of Education and Science could provide our guests with useful literature relating to these matters before they leave Ireland.
Deputy O'Sullivan has covered most of the points. On the third question, the initial debate about abolishing third level fees focused on increasing the social mix. Some of us would argue that, 20 years later, this has not happened. Others would say we will have to wait another 20 years before we can fully assess the effect. I advocate greater early intervention instead of depending on the abolition of fees to get more people into third level. However, the debate is ongoing. The Clancy report examined the social mix and breaks down the demographics. It would be worthwhile for the delegation to look at it.
The numbers from all socio-economic groups have been increasing steadily, particularly from the working class. Institutes of technology tend to have a better social mix than the universities.
Dr. Schellenberger
More precisely, has the percentage of working class students increased or just the numbers?
The percentage of students has increased steadily for the past 20 years.
Mr. Tullner
Yesterday, in the embassy, we heard reports of Ireland's great economic success as a result of decisive tax reforms and funding education and research. How did Ireland manage to put more finance into education before or during the Celtic tiger era?
The Celtic tiger had much to do with it. In 1968, going back a long way, a very forward-thinking Minister for Education and Science who happened to be from the party represented by the Chairman and some of the other members introduced free second level education. There has since been a very big increase in the number of people in Ireland who are educated to higher levels. The introduction of free third level education progressed this. The development of the institutes of technology has played a major part also.
There are many families in Ireland where the parents never went beyond second level education and might have left school at 16 years of age. Their ambition for their children is that they should have a greater level of education. There is a very strong belief in education in Ireland. People responded to the opportunities and public funding was put in place to respond to their demands. The Celtic tiger was very helpful because, as we became wealthier, we were able to invest more money in education. Is that a fair answer?
I thank the Deputy. Our discussion has been very informative. I hope the members of the delegation also found it informative. I wish them well for the remainder of their stay in Ireland which I hope will be informative and worthwhile.
Dr. Schellenberger
We have a small gift from Saxony-Anhalt for the Chairman of the joint committee. We thank members for their time and the pleasant exchange of ideas. Perhaps I am somewhat too spontaneous — perhaps that is not an Irish tradition — but I invite members of the committee to join us at 7 p.m. for dinner.
I thank Dr. Schellenberger for his kind invitation.
The joint committee adjourned at 4.05 p.m. until 11.30 a.m. on Thursday, 16 June 2005.