JOINT COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND SCIENCE debate -
Thursday, 2 Nov 2006

Concerned Parents of East Meath: Presentation.

Chairman

The first item on the agenda is a discussion with Concerned Parents of East Meath on the policy on and planning for the provision of school accommodation. On behalf of the joint committee, I welcome Ms Sharon Tolan, Ms Louise Daly, Mr. Gary McAuslan, Mr. Joe Daly, Ms Teresa Murphy, Mr. Brendan Murphy, Mr. A. J. Cahill and Mr. Peter O'Hara. I draw attention to the fact that while the members of the committee have absolute privilege, the same does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I ask Ms Tolan to make the presentation on behalf of Concerned Parents of East Meath. I will then take questions from members.

Ms Sharon Tolan

I thank the joint committee for inviting us to the meeting. Our experience has been a difficult and upsetting one, to say the least, one which we believe could and should have been avoided. It is an experience we hope no other child, parent or family should have to go through but one which we fear will occur again and again unless lessons are learned and changes made.

I take this opportunity to point to our junior and senior school mottos, "mol an óige" — cherish the young — and "tus maith leat na h-oibre" — a good start is half the battle. This September saw the youngest of the young not so cherished and a good battle just to get half a start. Education is a basic human right. It is shameful that in the land of "Unity, Prosperity, Community" 130 children went very close to not receiving that human right. As it stands, 91 began their education at 2 p.m., filling the seats that older children had vacated as they finished their day of schooling, while 39 were scattered to the four corners of the county in search of spare places in schools outside their community, or put off embarking on their education altogether for another year. Currently, the children begin their school day at the more normal time of 9 a.m. but in the inadequate, substandard accommodation that is the senior school's gym hall. Two adult-sized toilets are shared by 60 children, while over 600 are deprived of physical education and extra-curricular activities that normally take place in this, the very heart of a school. It is heartbreaking to think our children would have better facilities if they were criminals in our judicial system.

Children as young as 12 and 13 years are becoming commuters in our secondary school commuter belt, leaving their homes at 7 a.m. or 7.30 a.m. to make the journey to secondary schools in Drogheda, Balbriggan and even as far away as Swords. Is it any wonder east Meath is experiencing a drop-out rate of one in four in secondary education? We can expect a higher drop-out rate as the secondary schools in these areas that historically took our children have now closed their doors as they are full to capacity. All of this is happening in the Laytown-Bettystown area and with a new story on school crises cropping up weekly in the news, it seems obvious changes are needed. Children are educated in football clubs, gyms, race-course buildings, classrooms with no windows and disused toilets. Some go through their entire primary education programme without having experienced an actual school building. How prosperous Ireland seems if one is not a child.

County councils are giving free rein to zoning land for monstrous housing developments, hotels and gaming facilities, yet there is not a conscience among councillors or planners when it comes to providing any social infrastructure for the families moving to these areas. East Meath, with a population of 22,000, does not even have a rope for children to swing on. It has no playgrounds, no community centre, no library, no playing fields and has not had a classroom built since 1974.

It would be easy for the Department of Education and Science to blame county councils or, in the case of the Minister, to blame parents and, as she puts it, "ready-made families" moving to an area and, by all accounts, surprising everybody. How surprised should she be? Nobody should be surprised considering a report made to the Department in December 2002, entitled, Commission on School Accommodation, which states:

...the most significant increases occurred in Counties Meath and Kildare where the population increased by 22.1% and 21.5% respectively. This change in population is attributed to a combination of natural increase and net migration [ready-made families on the move, in other words]. The dynamics underlying the demographic trend since 1996 indicate that further growth is expected for the next 28 years ... An examination of migration classified by age group 0-14 for 1992-2001 indicates that the recent trend in net migration is having and will continue to have an impact on school enrolments for the foreseeable future.

The report lists the towns and areas involved and recommends time and again: "Overall responsibility for ensuring a site is reserved where need has been identified should reside with the Department of Education and Science".

We believe proactive planning would serve our children better than reactive distribution of prefabs to firefight increases in population. We believe there should be a formula, beginning with local government or the Department and ending with the provision of schools. Legislation should be put in place to protect our children's right to an education. For every X number of acres zoned residential, X number of acres should be zoned educational and ownership of these sites should be assigned in trust to the local authority before the rezoning becomes effective, long before housing is granted planning permission. This would ensure, at the very least, that a site was ready to be developed.

If a school is to be built, the Department should deal with the entire process. Only at the point of completion should responsibility for its running be handed over to a patron. We cannot continue to leave the responsibility of providing land for schools in the hands of well meaning but inexperienced patrons and boards of management. We cannot continue to accept the unacceptable, excuse the inexcusable and live with this appalling standard of school accommodation for our children. We cannot continue to expect teachers and principals to struggle to educate our children. In the Ireland of "Unity, Prosperity, Community", the words "struggle" and "educate" should not be in the same sentence.

We recommend as a matter of urgency that the recommendations made in this report and the recent ESRI report be put into action and that taxpayer's money be spent well. The recent report from the UN Committee on the Rights of the Child made several recommendations on education which I quoted in my letter to the committee. How many reports with recommendations do we need before changes are made? It is incumbent on the committee to take action and decide our children deserve more.

I thank committee members for their attention. I would like to introduce Ms Louise Daly, another parent from the east Meath area with concerns.

Ms Louise Daly

I thank the joint committee for inviting us to the meeting. Primary schools impact on the life of nearly every family at some stage. Therefore, we need to ask ourselves why 91 junior infants in Laytown-Bettystown almost did not get to begin their primary school education. Is it because, as the Minister, Deputy Hanafin, suggests, we as parents are more interested in the colour schemes of our new bathrooms than in securing school places for our children? I do not believe this to be the case and the evidence does not support it.

As far back as 1998 the Commission on School Accommodation furnished a report to the then Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Martin, warning: "In order to continue to provide the traditional level of access for children to primary school education, it is important that population shifts are monitored as a basis for planning primary school provision". In 2002 another report from the Commission on School Accommodation, given to the then Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Noel Dempsey, highlighted Laytown-Bettystown, among other areas, as an area in dire need of extra primary schools.

It is not rocket science to figure out that when county councils zone for thousands of extra homes in an area, extra schools will need to follow. Why is it that throughout the country children are being taught in inadequate substandard accommodation? Surely the protection and safety of children demand that finance be allocated to solve this problem.

We offer the committee several recommendations that we believe must be acted upon by the Department of Education and Science as a matter of urgency. The Department cannot continue to sanction new schools and then depend on inexperienced volunteers to set about their development and management. Overall responsibility for ensuring a site is reserved where a need has been identified should reside with the Department. It should not be allowed to use prefabricated buildings as long-term solutions. We are aware of a school in Kinsealy, north County Dublin, which has operated from prefabricated buildings for 20 years.

The numbers involved and the scale of the problem in east Meath highlight the total inadequacy of the system to respond to and provide, as and when required, adequate school facilities. This results in many children having to survive rather than thrive in their primary education. The Department cannot continue to offer appalling temporary solutions such as bussing four and five year olds out of their community to educate them in a disused jockeys' weigh-room. It should be ashamed of offering such a "solution". A watchdog group must be established to assess these so-called suitable sites before our children's health and safety are put at risk.

The Department must review the role of patrons within the education system. Patrons should be appointed only after a site has been secured. Proactive planning must recognise the role of patrons who are involved in many decisions central to planning school provision, including decisions related to the establishment of a new school or the extension of an existing one. The patron in east Meath is not fulfilling this role, with the result that existing schools are becoming overcrowded and more and more prefabricated buildings are being piled onto sites that cannot sustain large numbers of children.

Unless the Department looks at the needs of other schools in east Meath, we will be faced with a situation where a new school will open in 2008 and require prefabricated buildings by 2009. It is critically important that the needs of an entire area are looked at and that sufficient provision is made to cater for that area. The Department cannot continue to be allowed to use prefabricated buildings as a sticking plaster or quick fix which turns into a long-term solution that allows school populations to increase, while crucial play areas are reduced.

In the last eight years, during which time there have been three Ministers for Education and Science, two excellent reports, full of important recommendations, were produced by the Commission on School Accommodation. However, the Department continues to fail in its duty to provide schools on time. The process does not and will not work if the Department refuses to accept responsibility or ownership for the provision of schools.

In the case of east Meath, the commission's reports and recommendations prove conclusively that not only was the need for a school known but also that a sensible plan was available for implementation. The logical next step would have been to implement the commission's recommendations for delivering our school. We currently have a site, a project manager and a promise from the Minister for a school sometime in September 2008. What we all need is a process that identifies and provides for the social and educational needs of our children and communities. It should be a process that works not by protest or gift but by default.

It has been a shocking experience to have gone through this entire process only to discover that the Minister and her Department are not responsible for the provision of schools. This is the critical fact that must change.

I thank members for their time. I will now hand over to another parent, Mr. A. J. Cahill.

Mr. A. J. Cahill

I will simply add to what my colleagues have said. The ongoing story of the school crisis in Laytown is a case study in how not to deliver educational infrastructure. Ms Tolan has outlined the ongoing disrespect being shown to our children, many of whom must attend classes in the school gymnasium.

In our case, there were opportunities to avert the crisis. The Department of Education and Science recently purchased a 14 acre site at enormous cost for the new school. We are informed, however, that this site was offered for free on three occasions by a local landowner during a rezoning round, but this offer was not accepted by local councillors. The crisis might have been averted if local councillors and Oireachtas Members from all parties had identified and championed the educational needs of the children in the area. Most important, there would have been no problem if we had an effective process for the development of social and educational infrastructure.

It is interesting to note that Trim and Ratoath, the home towns of County Meath's Minister and Minister of State, respectively, have none of these problems, or at least have had them solved. Promptly delivered and effective social and educational infrastructure should not be the gift of senior politicians but rather a basic right for all children. As Ms Daly observed, it is not rocket science to conclude that when a local authority grants rezoning for thousands of new homes, new schools must follow, as should other social infrastructure, including community centres, playgrounds and playing pitches, all of which are needed in tandem with the construction and occupation of new homes.

Local authorities have also failed miserably in their obligations. Plans and recommendations were in place in the case of east Meath but, in the land of reactive rather than proactive response, they were never going to be implemented. The Department and politicians of all parties have failed our children and us. That failure occurred because these plans were not activated and the identified need was not championed. Instead, a crisis management approach was and is being adopted not only for our community but for many communities throughout the State, including Newbridge and Nenagh.

It must be acknowledged that since July, after years of inaction, local politicians, the council and the Department have worked with the community to solve the crisis and much has been achieved in a short timeframe. This only happened, however, because parents got tough with those charged with representing our children's interests. We advise other communities, in the absence of a system that works, to take the same course of action or be left behind.

New and expanding communities now surround all major urban areas and function as commuter or dormitory towns. Many of these towns were originally small villages with a relaxed way of life and good, if limited, schools. Despite their massive increase in population, they continue to have only the same social and educational infrastructure as before, sometimes with the addition of prefabricated buildings.

I reiterate that what is needed is a process that identifies and provides for the social and educational needs of our children and communities. As Ms Daly said, it must be a process that works, not by protest or gift but by default. To achieve this, politicians and civil servants must devise a system that works effectively. Otherwise, we must play our part by electing and thus entrusting and empowering a new breed of people to represent the interests of our children.

Chairman

I thank the delegates for their contributions. I now invite questions from members and ask them to bear in mind that a second delegation will make a presentation to the committee presently.

Deputy Enright

I welcome the delegates. I am sure they did not foresee on the occasion of their children's birth that they would be obliged to come before this committee four or five years later. There have been significant developments in regard to this particular school site and the delegates are to be commended for their willingness to share their experience with other parents likely to be in the same position. Representatives of the Department of Education and Science and the Commission on School Accommodation will attend a meeting of this committee in a fortnight and we were anxious to get a clear overview from the delegates of events in their area to ensure we would have a concrete example to discuss.

The delegates' contributions were comprehensive and they have answered most of the questions I had. In regard to rezoning, I am aware there were problems in regard to the county council and the Department of Education and Science. I am reluctant to use the word "fault" but will the delegates elaborate on how the problems arose? I am concerned that a practice may be emerging which almost amounts to a form of blackmail, where builders offer a particular site for a school in return for rezoning permission to build a specified number of houses. This is not a good way to do business because, in some cases, it may be poor planning to grant permission for the houses in question. If there is a major outcry for a new school, however, councillors may succumb to such an offer. In the case of east Meath, the critical issue is that if the Department had been able to step in prior to or at the zoning stage, these problems may not have arisen.

I do not know whether the delegates have information on the breakdown of the ages of the 91 children who started at the school and the 39 who were sent elsewhere. It is unacceptable that parents should have to withhold their children from school because of the lack of places. We must secure as much information as possible in this regard to ensure parents are in a position to choose when to send their children to school rather than making that decision based on necessity.

Deputy O’Sullivan

I thank the delegates for taking the time to make their presentation and the actions they were obliged to take in the period of this crisis. By giving us this information, they will help people in other areas. This is important and the witnesses should be commended for coming before the joint committee and not simply dealing with their own problems.

It is important that action takes place in this regard and the delegation has given an excellent presentation that addresses a problem of which members are aware, albeit perhaps not in the detail provided. Part of the problem is that while the Commission on School Accommodation has been able to identify many measures, it does not have the power to make them happen. My understanding is that the witnesses have asked the joint committee to put in place a process that will work and will identify where responsibility lies.

The delegation stated that "overall responsibility for ensuring a site is reserved where need has been identified should reside with the Department." While I agree with the witnesses, a stronger word than "reserved" may be required because sites reserved for educational purposes throughout the country have not been purchased. Hence, the entire purchasing process must take place eventually, by which time developers have the Department of Education and Science in the palm of their hands. The developers know a school is required, know the site is reserved for education and know they can ask for whatever price and, as Deputy Enright noted, make whatever demands they wish. The term should be strengthened to ensure the Department of Education and Science must purchase sites. As the delegates have suggested, it could then put them in trust with the local authorities. At the least however, the site must be identified and purchased. Ultimately, this would save money as it would mean the sites would be bought at a cheaper rate at an earlier stage. The implementation of such a process would not place an extra cost on the building programme. If I have understood the delegates correctly, I would be interested in their comments in this regard.

As for the Laytown area, the witnesses indicated that the Commission on School Accommodation expects further growth. Everyone knows this will be the case. Have the witnesses identified further needs that must be addressed immediately at both primary and post-primary level in the east Meath area? I imagine parts of County Louth are also affected. If so, what are they? The purpose of the joint committee is to ensure that members learn from such experiences and to ensure the lessons are applied in the system.

Deputy Hoctor

I welcome the delegation from County Meath. This is not the only place in which this has happened. In my constituency, the population in 2006 of Ballina, County Tipperary, has already reached the figure projected for 2011. Other incidences of this occur nationwide. However, I agree this case is exceptional and do not accept that children are being accommodated in disused toilets on a nationwide basis. Although the Department is making an effort, it has not yet caught up. Elsewhere, old schools have been transformed into new buildings. However, this is the exception and must be dealt with. Is a representative from the board of management of the school in Laytown present? I would be interested to hear, in greater detail, of the efforts made by that school to address this foreseen situation, in which a population explosion was evident, and to plan for its future.

Second, Ms Tolan mentioned that if a school is to be built, the Department of Education and Science should deal with the entire process and only at the point of completion should any responsibility for its running be handed over to a patron. I am unconvinced this is the way forward because there have been clear examples of excellent community input into the planning, design and choice of site for schools nationwide. Many examples demonstrate the success of devolved grants, whereby local communities had an input into how money should be spent to build a school. For instance, Ballycahill national school in County Tipperary was able to provide an additional classroom because the local builder and architect became involved. Consequently, the school was able to get real value for money because of this local input. One gets much better value when local people are involved in future planning for a school because they know best what is actually required in respect of a community's needs.

As a former member of both North Tipperary County Council and Nenagh Town Council, I envisage a clear role for planners in this respect. Consultants are brought in by local authorities. Planners are trained, sometimes to master's degree level. They work in local authorities and engage in what they call forward planning for localities. In this instance, this clearly was missed . While I do not claim they were alone in this regard, that is their job. They are called planners and their role is to plan for the future use of land. While population explosions are not always projected with complete accuracy, someone must be answerable and in the first instance, I would look to the local authority.

Deputy English

I thank the delegation for their comments. They have summarised the experiences of many parents throughout the country. The events at Laytown are not exceptional as this is taking place nationwide and has done for years. Many members of the joint committee have tried to highlight this issue for a long time and the delegation's story might help to get the system changed.

The events at Laytown, County Meath, and elsewhere are ridiculous. In the past, I have been involved in the attempts of many schools to acquire accommodation and the same situation applies. Three schools in my home town of Navan, which is not too far from Laytown, are housed in temporary accommodation and have been so housed for a long time. Petitions to get some of those schools built began approximately nine years ago. Similarly, in Laytown petitions were started seven or eight years ago to get the school extended. This is ridiculous and it is untrue to state that it is abnormal for this to happen. It is normal and it happens nationwide. It is time we faced up to the fact that as far as providing educational facilities is concerned, our system does not work.

The delegation's comments summed up this point quite well and I endorse most of their observations. I will touch on a couple of problems in this regard. The council, councillors and the Department of Education and Science were all at fault. First, unsuitable land has been zoned in County Meath. Far too much land was zoned without a proper release system to ensure that facilities followed housing and so on. Moreover, planners were not always listened to and in some cases, councillors took responsibility themselves. The Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government is meant to intervene in such cases. This has happened in other counties, in which it suited the political system to so do. However, when it really mattered and when problems were highlighted with zoning issues, no one stepped in and no one prevented what was happening.

The manner in which the Department of Education and Science works with county councils is also problematic, as it does not do so. On numerous occasions when developing various plans, Meath County Council wrote to the Department of Education and Science to ask it for its predictions as to what schools would be required. I was involved with one such plan and we asked the Department for its opinion as to what schools would be needed in a particular town. However, as it would not give us an answer, we decided on four schools. We were thinking ahead and doing the Department's job, and we zoned the lands for schools. Consequently, it transpired we were correct and four sites have been reserved for four schools because of the council's decision. However, the homework regarding the number of schools required to serve an area should have been carried out by the Department of Education and Science. While this is the purpose of the Commission on School Accommodation, the latter body is not heeded.

I completely endorse the comments regarding responsibility. Someone must take responsibility and it should be the Department of Education and Science. While the issue as to who should take over a school afterwards is a separate matter, the Department should ensure that action regarding a site is followed through.

In some respects, the council has begun to learn from what happened in Laytown and other parts of County Meath such as Ratoath, Navan and so on. It is now buying sites from the developers of some of the zoned land. However, a council should not be obliged to buy sites it does not require. The Department of Education and Science should provide the funding for the reservation and purchase of such sites, which are to be built on at the appropriate time. Moreover, although developers have expressed a willingness to build schools while building houses, the Department of Education and Science is not interested in working with them in this regard. Although solutions are available, action is not being taken and the problems are mounting, just as they did in Laytown.

While the temporary solution in Laytown has largely resolved the immediate issue, pressure must be maintained to ensure the target of September 2008 is met. The temporary solution is unsatisfactory. The witnesses mentioned the use of prefabs for a 20 year period. In the primary school that I attended, prefabs were erected when I was in junior infants. They were not replaced until this year, twenty-something years later. Moreover, they were not replaced with a permanent structure but with more prefabs. While this practice is accepted throughout the country, prefabs are not an acceptable form of school accommodation. The Minister for Education and Science would not work in a prefab. We must demand better facilities for our children.

To sum up, I endorse the contents of this report from the parents involved and believe we must act on it. We will meet representatives from the Department in two weeks' time and can put these questions to them. This issue is not new. It has been ongoing for a long time and action is needed. I commend this group because many parents back off when they secure a place. I am delighted to see this group is still fighting for this cause not simply for itself but for other schools in the area. I hope its example will bring about change. I am aware that the group received a considerable amount of help from local politicians from various parties. I also commend these politicians for helping out. In many cases, people were not listened to in time, a scenario that was replicated in the case of this group. The system must be made to react to what is happening and to be proactive. If the Department is told that a school will be needed in five years' time, it is obvious that this is true because the figures are there. We have the birth rates and people moving to the area. Getting this right is not rocket science. We must demand more for our children.

Deputy McEntee

I will not say too much because I am from this area. I congratulate each member of the group for the manner in which they carried out their campaign from the very first night. I am new to politics but I will always say that the most defining night for me was the night when the group refused to accept what was thrown at it at the first meeting. The first offer concerned sending their children to the race course. From that night onwards, the group told every politician that it wanted the matter sorted out. It did not care which party the politician was from. The fact that the site became a problem probably helped bring the matter forward and apply pressure.

The group must continue its work in the organised fashion in which it has worked over the past four or five months. It was this group that organised and told the people what it wanted and it will get what it wants at the end of the day. However, it is wrong for parents to be forced to go to such lengths. Members of the group have been forced to take days off work. The law must be changed. I stated 18 months ago that if 400 houses are to be built in Laytown or Ratoath, the school must be in place beforehand. Until this becomes law, as is the case in Australia, where nobody is given to the keys to his or her house within an estate until the sporting facilities and classrooms are there, we will always play catch up. The policy of using prefabs is a complete disaster. I would like the group to stay together but the laws must be changed. Talking to developers and wheeling and dealing should not be part of the equation. A person pays 53% or 54% of the price of a house in tax, be it through VAT or PRSI. This money should go towards providing schools in that area. There is a simple answer to this issue. If 500 houses are to be built in Laytown, no builder should be allowed sell them until the school is in place. I once again congratulate the group on the manner in which it conducted its business.

Deputy Gogarty

I genuinely thank the group for coming before the committee. However, I will not patronise it by saying what a great job it has done or that it is great that parents have come before us because, in the words of the Taoiseach, there is a lot done, a lot more to do. It is sad that it is incumbent on people like those in the group to get off their backsides and push this matter. The group will be forced to do more of this because of the political aspect of the situation relating to school provision which goes far beyond the boundaries of the Department of Education and Science. I will allude to this in a minute.

In respect of actions the Department could take, I raised the issue of class sizes with the Minister in the Dáil. I acknowledged that putting additional provision into special needs education was a positive step because it is needed but I argued that the Minister should not use that hoary old chestnut when she discusses overall educational investment because she has not invested. I understand that approximately €489 million has been invested in school building projects, which is an increase but nowhere near enough. The Minister stood up in the House and asked me how I dared to criticise her for investing in special needs education. That is the level of debate at the moment. It is a case of "either or". One investment is traded off against another and no one seems to realise the importance of investing in education. The Department could certainly start planning from day one. It can plan when it needs to. The pressure exerted by the group in its own area has worked.

I was involved in a campaign called Lucan Schools Crisis in Dublin Mid-West. Within 12 to 18 months, an Educate Together school was fast tracked because of pressure and people power. This needs to be exerted throughout the country and it suggests that groups should direct some of their energies towards networking and getting a nationwide non-political group set up because to effect real change, one must hit the politicians where it hurts. I would like to hear the group's opinion on this.

The single biggest measure that could improve investment in education is to ban corporate donations. Councillors throughout the length and breadth of this country are rezoning land left, right and centre. The corruption element of it is very small, but tribunals raise it every day. In reality, every large party accepts corporate donations from developers. Will they change the system whereby developers are able to build on land without facilities being put in place beforehand? Even where developers promise to build schools, they know the profits they will make and the amount of housing that will be built will exceed the availability of places at the school. What tends to happen in my constituency is that provision for a site which will cater for a population as it grows up is put in. However, these benevolent developers are not allowed to pay for the mistakes of the past that councillors facilitated whereby the existing community is already overstretched and needs to catch up now. Therefore, the developers are not being put into a position where they should pay back what they have already received.

In terms of a change in the legislation, I firmly believe that if land is rezoned, a condition should be put in whereby developers should build a multi-use school with sports facilities open to the community. The management issues can be worked out later on. Such a school could be used as a resource centre if there are infants in the community. It will gradually become a primary school. A modular building can change as the population changes. To get that kind of structure built requires a change in the legislation to take the considerable profits away from developers when they build housing. To do this requires a considerable shift in political thinking.

A nationwide campaign by parents to do this as part of the provision of schools and other facilities is the only way this will happen. I am not claiming credit simply because my party does not accept donations. If one looks at the large majority of Deputies and Senators from larger parties in the Houses of the Oireachtas, one can see that they all accept corporate donations. As a result, the shift in terms of making developers pay communities for the considerable profits they make will not take place. Does the group believe developers making considerable profits from the rezoning of land should be forced by legislation to provide the facilities from the start? Does the group believe this is a prerequisite in terms of building communities? If it does believe this, its help is urgently needed because politicians will not pull themselves up by their bootstraps. They need a kick in the backside to get moving because many of their friends, such as those who attend the Galway races and make legitimate donations, are developers. Until the link between planning communities and the political process is ended, one will not achieve any change, the group will continue to discuss matters before the committee, we will patronise it and nothing will happen. Therefore, the group's help is needed. Does it believe that my views on ending the link between builders and politicians are correct?

Deputy Cowley

I am grateful for the opportunity to say a few words on the matter even though I am not a member of this committee. I am very interested in what is going on and what has been said because it encapsulates what is wrong with this country. I visited Laytown and ws amazed when I saw the situation there. Prefabs are also used in rural areas and I saw prefabs in Laytown. There were not enough prefabs for children who were due to attend school. This cannot be blamed on overpopulation. It is a failure of the political system, as the parents pointed out very clearly. The system has failed them, which is why they are here. It is disgraceful that they should have to resort to appearing before the committee. They are here because of a system that has not given them places for their children which they expected. They trusted politicians to provide for them. I can see from the monitor that there is a debate taking place in private Members' business which concerns the restoration of Part V of the Planning and Development Act 2000. The former Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Bobby Molloy, did a very noble thing when he introduced Part V. It was an attempt to give people a house. Under Part V, 20% of development would be for social and affordable housing. However, the measure was so watered down that it is now pretty useless. Some 48,000 people are on waiting lists. The answers are clear, but what will change? These good people have gone to the trouble of attending this meeting.

How will Fine Gael, Fianna Fáil or the Progressive Democrats face this issue? I always presumed that politics was about people and creating a system that would ensure an adequate supply of school places, jobs and so on. We should ban brown envelopes rather than corporate donations because the planning system is corrupt.

Departmental documents predicted the situation in question, but why were they not acted upon? There is no reason for the schools not to be built. The local authorities, planners, Government and political parties have failed to do their job. The situation will continue for as long as those jobs are not done and the agenda is governed by money, greed and profit rather than the good of the people. I commend the Concerned Parents of East Meath for attending.

Deputy Crowe

I welcome the group. One is tempted to grandstand at such meetings, but I and most committee members wish to distance ourselves from the unhelpful remarks made by the Minister in which she stated that parents are more concerned about colour schemes and so on. I call on her to withdraw that remark.

Part of the debate during which the remark was made related to the difficulty posed by parents, but they are not the problem. It is understandable that some people, particularly families, cannot afford to buy houses in their home areas. Many families that left Dublin moved to County Meath. Some, up to then, may have lived in apartments that were unsuitable for rearing children because there was not enough space, recreational areas or gardens. Those who could not afford houses in Dublin moved to counties Meath, Kildare or Wicklow. Some moved as far as Mullingar, Portlaoise or Carlow.

It is wrong to blame families for moving to new areas. The Minister stated that it was difficult to plan for people moving into other areas overnight. She also spoke about moving during the school year as if moving during the school holidays would make a difference and create more room in schools, but it would not. I am from Tallaght, an area synonymous with bad planning in which the problems in County Meath referred to by our witnesses were also apparent. Houses were built without adequate infrastructure, transport, schools, crèches, shops and so on. We were playing catch-up by following the developer and hoping that matters would be sorted out. One would like to believe that the situation is improving.

Deputy English spoke about how he went to school in a prefab, but I also went to school in a prefab. My nephew spent all of his school years in a prefab. One would like to believe we are learning, but I doubt it. Some of the problem relates to housing, but there was enough indication in our guests' area and other areas where houses were erected that there would be a need for schools. The committee will invite the Department to attend a discussion on this matter. The group's document states that a classroom has not been built in that area since 1974, but can the group stand over this claim? We will probably ask the Department about this matter, but it will tell us that a certain number of schools were built in the area. Will our guests revert to the committee in this regard? I wish them well in their campaign.

It is said that it is difficult to plan in my area. Hundreds if not thousands of houses are being built in Tallaght, but there are no new schools. I know of many sites that have been vacant for the past 25 years. The Department will not build schools on them due to population movements, but this is the case because people can no longer afford to live in those areas. If there is no school, a parent is unlikely to remain in an area. One factor must feed into another.

The committee must look outside the box in terms of the problems in Meath and elsewhere, but so must the Government. While we refer to the Department as "DES", it is interesting that our guests referred to it as "DoES". Unfortunately, the Department "DoES" not, as it were.

Chairman

We are running over time.

Deputy Enright

Unless my silence be taken for agreement, I do not want the debate to turn into something it is not. Deputy Gogarty is entitled to make his point, but addressing the matter of corporate donations is not the answer to every problem.

Deputy Gogarty

Deputy Enright would say that.

Deputy Enright

We should be honest.

Deputy Gogarty

That is fair enough. I was making a point.

Deputy Enright

As Deputy English stated, solutions driven by councillors have been provided in Navan. The fact that corporate donations must be declared has been alluded to. We can ban as much as we like, but it would not get rid of the underhandedness of the system. There is always potential for it.

We may try to make our solutions too simplistic, but I do not want to see a situation evolve where whatever is done only adds to the price of a house that a 30 year old couple could not afford in the first instance. It could easily happen. In Navan, the council is stepping in and buying sites before houses are built and prices increase so that it can sell those sites to the Department of Education and Science. This solution can work in a local area, but something similar must be replicated across the country because other councils are not as progressive. It would ensure that young people would not be caught out.

Chairman

When houses are built and massive developments take place, sites rise out of the cost ranges of the patrons entrusted by the State to provide schools. The legislation on CPOs for school purposes must be examined. The Department of Education and Science, the main provider of Ireland's educational services, must acquire sites through the boards of management irrespective of local issues.

This is an issue in east County Meath where there has been a significant growth in the population, but the committee knows that it is also an issue in every village and town. When matters are dealt with by local authorities, the Department and the boards of management must be able to acquire sites by CPOs in the same way that land is bought for roads. We could widen the debate to include every aspect of the matter, but we are trying to establish what our guests did so that we can explain to the planning and policy unit of the Department what needs to be done when it attends the committee in two weeks.

Deputy English

Departments must work together, which the Departments of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and Education and Science do not in terms of school provision. The former is responsible for councils.

Chairman

And other local authorities.

Deputy English

They are directed by the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. The planning situation can be solved by local area plans. For example, local authorities could zone enough land for education and housing, which the Department should act on it by working with the authorities, but this is not happening.

Chairman

Apart from VECs, which include members of local authorities, all local authorities have sub-committees to deal with housing and other matters. However, most local authorities also need sub-committees on recreational and educational facilities.

We must finish shortly because another deputation is waiting. We stated that we would finish at 12.10 p.m. or 12.15 p.m. I suggest that our guests provide us with a written list of issues before our meeting with the Department.

Deputy Gogarty

Deputy English made a good point about joined-up thinking between the Departments of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and Education and Science. If land is rezoned from agricultural to residential use, its value increases by ten times. Political will is needed to change this to ensure developers do not make a killing to the cost of the community. Deputy Enright referred to a possible increase in house prices if developers had to provide schools but parents are already paying in the sense that they must drive their children to schools. The same applies in the case of community facilities. If money was spent on them, the overall cost to communities would be lower. We must examine this issue before we find ourselves having a similar debate in ten years' time with different parents.

Ms Tolan

We will revert to the committee with responses to points made by committee members. There were a few questions. Everyone has the same idea of a change in legislation. We hope it is not just words and that action will be taken. One must continue to fight the cause but we are tired of doing so, as we should not have to fight it. What we have had to do for the past three months has not been fair on our families. We had to avoid speaking to our children about their first day at school for the three weeks preceding it. That was a disgrace. We could not get them excited about it, talk to them about uniforms or point out the new school because we did not know where they would be going. We could have had to drive to Bellewstown to point out their first school, knowing that they might have to change the following week. I urge the committee to continue the fight. We are tired of fighting and we would like to return to our normal lives with our families.

Deputy Hoctor referred to disused toilets as being the exception. We can deal with such matters as adults but we should not expect children to deal with them under any circumstances.

Deputy Hoctor

It is an exception. There was a time when it was not but it is now.

Ms Tolan

It should not be the case, not in 2006.

Deputy McEntee

The delegation has learned more than anyone else. Now is the time to change the law. The delegation should apply pressure in the coming six months.

Chairman

We know exactly what are the issues.

Deputy Cowley

The children concerned have almost been deprived of school places. Who is answerable? Whose heads will roll over this matter? As with road safety, unless there is accountability and until someone pays the price, there will never be any difference.

Chairman

I will take one more comment from the delegation. I suggest that our guests provide us with a written response to questions raised before our meeting with the Department.

Mr. Peter O’Hara

We are considering the land issue as a step too far down the line. Developers must buy land at great cost from its owners. Before it is rezoned for development, it is considered to be agricultural land. Before making a fortune, the landowner should be told ten of his or her 50 acres will be held in trust by the local authority for a school to be built later. If the Department decides one is not needed, that is fine but at least a site would be available without the need for a compulsory purchase order or to purchase from a developer.

Chairman

I have experience of this situation. The difficulty is that the owner of land that has not been zoned but which has been deemed suitable for an educational facility will sit on it and claim it might be developed in 15 years. He or she will not budge.

Mr. O’Hara

That is true but some landowners will agree.

Deputy Hoctor

Landowners have civil rights.

Mr. O’Hara

What about the civil rights of children?

Deputy Hoctor

The Irish Council for Civil Liberties would raise the issue of the civil rights of landowners.

Deputy English

It is possible to do what has been suggested. It is being done throughout the country. As a development plan is being finalised, sites are identified, deals are done and the sites are held until they are required.

Chairman

As there is a vote in the Dáil, we must suspend the sitting. I thank the delegation for attending and invite it to return as soon as possible with the information sought.

Sitting suspended at 12.35 p.m. and resumed at 12.50 p.m.